Episode 612: The House of Flying Objects: The Popper Poltergeist

Summary

The House of Flying Objects: The Popper Poltergeist – A Detailed Summary of Morbid Episode 612

Released on October 24, 2024, "The House of Flying Objects: The Popper Poltergeist" is Episode 612 of the Morbid podcast by Morbid Network | Wondery. Hosted by Elena and Ash, the episode delves into one of the most enigmatic poltergeist cases in American history—the disturbances experienced by the Herman family in Long Island, New York, during the 1950s.

1. Introduction to the Herman Family Poltergeist Case

The episode begins with Elena and Ash setting the stage for a spooky yet scientifically intriguing true crime story. They introduce the Herman family, whose home became the epicenter of unexplained phenomena, earning it the moniker "The House of Flying Objects" and later inspiring Steven Spielberg’s 1982 horror film Poltergeist.

2. The Onset of Unexplained Disturbances (02:26 – 09:10)

The disturbances began on Monday, February 3, 1953, when 43-year-old James Herman was at work, leaving his wife Lucille and their children, Jimmy and Lorelei, alone in their Long Island home. Lucille first noticed odd occurrences, such as a holy water bottle being knocked off a dresser and Jimmy’s ceramic doll being broken (09:10).

3. Escalation of Paranormal Activity (09:10 – 16:17)

Initially, minor disturbances—like popping noises and objects tipping over—were mostly witnessed by the children. However, on February 9th, the activity intensified significantly. As the family gathered for breakfast, multiple bottles with screw-type caps spontaneously unscrewed and spilled their contents (11:44). These events grew more frequent and aggressive, leading Lucille to call the police.

Police Officer J. Hughes documented the initial incidents but found no immediate explanations (13:09). As the disturbances continued, Detective Joseph Totsi took over, labeling the case “Local Investigation Broken Bottles” (14:04) but still unable to explain the phenomena.

4. Media Frenzy and Public Speculation (16:17 – 24:26)

The case quickly grabbed local and national media attention, stirring various theories—from gas leaks to extraterrestrial activities. The Hermans were inundated with public interest, including advice from Helen Connolly of Revere, Massachusetts, who suggested that built-up chimney gases might be responsible (24:26). However, experts like John Dittrich from the Merchant Marine Academy found this explanation implausible (35:28).

5. The Role of Adolescence and Recurrent Spontaneous Psychokinesis (RSPK) (22:02 – 57:43)

J.B. Rhine, founder of Duke University’s parapsychology lab, became intrigued by the case. Researchers Roland Pratt and William Roll moved into the Herman household to investigate. Through their scientific approach, they proposed that the disturbances might be caused by Jimmy Herman, the 12-year-old son, exhibiting Recurrent Spontaneous Psychokinesis (RSPK) due to his emotional turmoil (22:02).

Notable Quote:

"The poltergeist has a reputation of being elusive, if not plain evasive. This was not true in Seaford. Things sometimes happen in full view of people and when outsider visitors were present." – Ash at 56:43

Researchers ruled out the possibility of a familial hoax, focusing instead on the psychological state of Jimmy. Despite intense scrutiny and various investigations, Pratt and Roll found no definitive evidence, though they leaned towards RSPK as the most plausible explanation (45:08).

6. Conflicting Theories and Public Opinion (57:43 – 64:21)

While Duke researchers supported the RSPK hypothesis, skeptics like investigator Joe Nicholl later argued that Jimmy could have been orchestrating the disturbances, possibly unintentionally fueled by his strained relationship with his father (64:21). The episode highlights the divided opinions among experts and the public, with some believing in supernatural causes and others suspecting Jimmy's role.

Notable Quote:

"I don't believe for a moment that there is any colossal hoax behind this. And these are two, like, very well respected, well respected researchers." – Ash at 51:13

7. Conclusion and Legacy (66:03 – End)

By mid-March, the disturbances ceased abruptly, leaving the Herman family to resume their lives in relative peace. Jimmy Herman grew up to become the president of an electronics company, and the house no longer experienced any paranormal activity. The case remains a subject of fascination, serving as a pioneering example of modern paranormal investigation and influencing pop culture significantly.

Notable Quote:

"It was the first one to get the attention of the American press and just take it. It really popped off." – Ash at 67:32

8. Final Reflections and Host Insights (68:04 – End)

Elena and Ash wrap up the episode by reflecting on the blend of scientific investigation and paranormal intrigue that made the Herman case so compelling. They express appreciation for the rigorous approach taken by early parapsychologists and compare it to contemporary shows like Ghost Hunters and TAPS, which balance skepticism with a search for truth.

Notable Quote:

"Personally, that's how you would do it. A paranormal investigation is to go in with the intention of debunking and be surprised if you're surprised." – Ash at 69:22

Key Takeaways

• The Herman family's case is a cornerstone in paranormal investigation history, blending intense media scrutiny, scientific inquiry, and public fascination.
• Recurrent Spontaneous Psychokinesis (RSPK) was a central theory, suggesting that psychological stress, particularly in adolescents, could manifest as physical disturbances.
• Public and expert opinions remain divided, with theories ranging from psychological causes to the possibility of paranormal activity.
• Legacy and Influence: The case inspired significant cultural works and set a precedent for how paranormal phenomena are investigated and perceived in popular media.

Final Thought: Whether viewed through the lens of science or the supernatural, the Herman family's House of Flying Objects remains an enduring mystery, inviting listeners to ponder the fine line between reality and the unknown.

Transcript

[Elena]

Wondery plus subscribers can listen to Morbid early and ad free. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. Hey everyone, let's talk about protein for a second. There's this rumor that getting plant based protein is tough, but listen, there are some amazing options out there even if you're not vegan. Adding more plant based protein to your diet is a fantastic way to nourish your body and support the planet. My good go to for tasty protein and superfood pack shake is Cachava. Every serving of Cachava offers 25 grams of 100% plant based protein. But that's not all this all in one shake has fiber, quality, fats, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants and so much more. I love that I can tick so many boxes with just one delicious shake. If you know me, you know that vanilla and chai are my favorite flavors and I like to combine them. But they also have chocolate, they've got matcha, and they've got coconut acai. I'm a big fan of the coconut acai as well. After drinking Kachava first thing in the morning because that's when I always drink it, I feel satiated for hours. I feel focused, calm and ready to take on my day. Something that I really love to do if I even want like a little bit more protein is just add a scoop of peanut butter to the vanilla and chai concoction that I make. And that oh is just scrum diddly umpious honey. Kachava is offering our listeners 10% off on their subscription for a limited time. Just go to kachava.commorbid spelled k a C H A v a and get 10% off your first order. That's K A C H A V A dot com morbid what's it like to get the new iPhone 16 Pro with at and T Next up Anytime? It's like when you first light up the grill and think of all the mouthwatering possibilities. Learn how to get the new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on AT and T and the latest iPhone every year with AT and T next up anytime ATT connecting changes everything. Apple Intelligence coming fall 2024 with Siri and device language set to US English. Some features and languages will be coming over the next year. $0 offer may not be available on future iPhones. Next up Anytime features may be discontinued at any time, subject to change additional fees. Terms and restrictions apply. See att.com iPhone for details hey, weirdos.

[Ash]

I'm Alina. And I'm Ash. And this is morbid.

[Elena]

What is up, fuckers?

[Ash]

What is up?

[Elena]

So we're doing something for Halloween. I won't say what it is. It's a special surprise. But part of it does involve Elena wearing a weird contact in her eye.

[Ash]

And I'm wearing it right now, and.

[Elena]

She'S wearing it right now, and it's. It's throwing me off.

[Ash]

It threw John way off.

[Elena]

John fucking hates it.

[Ash]

He hates it.

[Elena]

John said, get that out of your eyeball.

[Ash]

He literally went, oh, no.

[Elena]

I was sitting in the office and he was in the other room when she showed him. And I literally just hear, oh. Oh, God. No, no, no.

[Ash]

He hates it. It freaks him out. I love it. I think it's great he knows now. He was like, oh, no. This is gonna be like. You're just gonna pop that in on, like, a random Tuesday and just walk downstairs, aren't you?

[Elena]

You should just, like, wake him up one morning wearing both of them and.

[Ash]

Just stare at him.

[Elena]

Yeah. Oh, but you're afraid to put one in the other eye.

[Ash]

I am. I have, like, one eye that I had. Like, it's just a problematic eye.

[Elena]

Didn't some. The kids, like, scratched it when they were babies?

[Ash]

Yeah, when they were, like, babies. One of my kids accidentally poked into my eye and then, like, ripped and literally tore my cornea open. Like. Like it wasn't, like, a scratch on the cornea. Like, a flap was, like, literally the worst pain I've ever felt in my entire life. It wasn't immediate. I know we're getting off track, but, you know, it's the beginning.

[Elena]

It's always off track in the beginning.

[Ash]

This is just, you know, it's important.

[Elena]

For you to know from the eyes.

[Ash]

Because it was bad. Like, it was a bad poke, and you were like, oh, my eye was, like, watering like crazy. And it was rough, but I was able to go to sleep that night. Whatever. And then what happened was my eye dried out in the middle of the night, and I woke up and I opened my lid and my lid tore the remaining piece of my cornea up.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

And that was the worst pain I have ever experienced in my life. And I have had three children.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And I'm saying that confidently because I literally started to sob immediately, but didn't want to wake anyone up because that's who I am. And I went downstairs and just paced around crying into pillows and contemplating whether I should run full force into a wall and knock myself out. That's how bad that pain was. And I'm not saying that to be funny. That is the reality of what happened. I literally looked at a wall and I said, should I run into it?

[Elena]

I'm just picturing a quiet still house. Like, 4am yeah. Everybody just here is like, what's that? I'm just picturing the cartoon birds, the stars.

[Ash]

No, I literally did they. We had to go to the er, I remember. And they had to give me, like, the. The numbing stuff, like the lidocaine drops. But they can only give you that once because they'll fuck up your eye.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

So they give you it, and the relief is. Immediately goes away. Oh, God, this is amazing. And then they send you home and they say, well, you need to get. You know, you need to have an appointment and you need to get all this stuff done.

[Elena]

Didn't you go off or, like. Like semi permanent?

[Ash]

I had to get a contact, like a healing contact put on it because they had to, like, do something to it to, like, reflect.

[Elena]

And then so it wouldn't reopen, so.

[Ash]

It wouldn't keep tearing open. Damn. So I had to wear a hard contact for, like, a week. And I had to wear sunglasses for a week. I couldn't be outside in the. Cause it was so exposed that I couldn't be in the sun.

[Elena]

You could, like, burn your eye. My eye story.

[Ash]

So the story, the end of that story is just that I don't want to put a contact.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Moral of the story. I don't blame you. I'm just very scared of that eye.

[Elena]

One time, I think it was. No, it was eighth grade, I laughed into a pencil. And you heard that, right? I was lolling with my girlies in class, holding a pencil. And I was holding a pencil, and I literally went, oh. And like, tilted my head back and then fell forward and scratched my cornea, which. That in and of itself hurt so bad I can't even imagine tearing my cornea open. And I was on crutches at that point because that summer I had broken my pelvis. And then to add insult to motherfucking injury. 14 years old, 8th grade. Like, always the greatest time of your life.

[Ash]

Oh, absolutely.

[Elena]

Except not at all the worst. I had to wear an eye patch.

[Ash]

So you're wearing an eye patch while on crutches.

[Elena]

An eye patch. And I was on crutches. I did not wear the eye patch as long as they told me to because I said, honey, my reputation will never recover. I said, I'm sorry, doctor.

[Ash]

I be damned.

[Elena]

I Don't give a fuck.

[Ash]

I'll go blind before I walk the hall. Before I damage my reputation with an.

[Elena]

Eye patch and crutches.

[Ash]

Oh my God.

[Elena]

Cuz I was on crutches for so long that people started to say I was faking. Even though, I mean, I was like, I broke my pelvis. Like it's going to take me a while to heal here.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's like pretty big bone.

[Elena]

So then adding an eye patch to that, it was not good.

[Ash]

It's not good.

[Elena]

No good.

[Ash]

Damn. You know that Ash. Ash is a Lawler. And when she laughs, she laughs with her whole body.

[Elena]

One thing about me is I. She's a Lawler. So I'm in it for the ls.

[Ash]

Well, this one will not make you lol. I don't think. But it'll make you go, huh?

[Elena]

So you'll ha. Instead of lol.

[Ash]

This is. This is the house of flying objects. That's also kind of known. I know. Isn't that kind of beautiful?

[Elena]

I kind of love it.

[Ash]

It's also known as the Popper poltergeist. It almost was like, poltergeist.

[Elena]

That's silly.

[Ash]

The Pauper Poltergeist.

[Elena]

That makes me also lol.

[Ash]

This one is one of those cases where there isn't an answer to this day they were not able to debunk.

[Elena]

So it's a haunt.

[Ash]

But there is a theory. But this theory, again, is a theory and it has not been proven. And the person who the theory is against vehemently says, not me. They did not cause this to happen. All right, so I'll leave it to you at the end.

[Elena]

You decide.

[Ash]

So this is the family was the Herman family. And it's. This case is considered by many to be the first modern investigation into poltergeist disturbances. It was in the 50s.

[Elena]

Oh, shit.

[Ash]

And it was actually the inspiration for Steven Spielberg's 1982 and Toby Hooper's horror film Poltergeist. Oh. Now, despite all the attention it got, the case, like I said, is still unexplained. They have not been able to figure out what the fuck was going on in this house.

[Elena]

It's really hard to look at you right now.

[Ash]

I know. This is really fun to tell. You serious too. So it's like, I'm serious and I have this really scary eye.

[Elena]

Yes. But it's also kind of goofy because you're just in like regular clothes.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You know, and like you have your hair extensions too. So you're just like, I'm pretty and my eyes Scary.

[Ash]

So you just have like a blowout. It's like you in the haunted house.

[Elena]

I was just going to say that.

[Ash]

It'S you in the haunted house with a big blonde blowout.

[Elena]

Listen, that's who I am.

[Ash]

There's Ash.

[Elena]

Yeah, I can always be spotted.

[Ash]

So as far as anyone could remember, the disturbances in the Herman house started on Monday, February 3, 1953. 43 year old James Herman was at work and his wife, 38 year old Lucille and their children. Jimmy and Lucille were home alone at their home in Long Island, New York.

[Elena]

Long Island.

[Ash]

Long Island.

[Elena]

I love when a woman names her daughter after herself. I think that's what it's. Fucking power movie. Yeah.

[Ash]

Lorelei and Rory.

[Elena]

Because guys do it all the time, but you don't hear of it with women often.

[Ash]

And I love that both the kids are juniors.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

Jimmy and Lucille. There's James and Lucille.

[Elena]

That was lost on me.

[Ash]

Yeah, see, they both did check it. Good for them. Mrs. Herman was finishing up some chores on the first floor of the house and she suddenly heard some popping noises coming from the second floor. And when she went up to look, Lucille found that. A small holy water bottle on the dresser in the main bedroom.

[Elena]

You know, like everyone has.

[Ash]

I was gonna say whoa. Like just like. Okay. Just their holy water that they had on their nightstand. Okay. Its cap was unscrewed and the bottle was laying on its side with the contents all spilled.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Now, in Jimmy's bedroom, like I'm going to call James the father and Jimmy the son, so you can.

[Elena]

Okay. To differentiate.

[Ash]

In Jimmy's bedroom, Lucille found that the head of a ceramic doll had been broken and several pieces of a model ship he had been working on had snapped off.

[Elena]

Hmm.

[Ash]

And in other places in the house, Lucille discovered several other bottles where the caps appeared to have simply popped off.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

With no explanation.

[Elena]

Pop off.

[Ash]

Just popping off now. Although there were some minor disturbances in the house in the days after that, mostly witnessed by the children, Lucille and Jimmy, the problem didn't escalate until the morning of February 9th. That morning, a little after 10am the whole family was gathered in the dining room, just eating breakfast. And they heard the popping noises again. This time they all heard it. Lucille ran to the main bedroom and discovered that the cap on the holy water bottle again had come off. And the contents was spilled on the. On the nightstand. And a bottle of expensive perfume that was also on her dresser had spilled. Top come off.

[Elena]

You mess with my perfume, you die.

[Ash]

I figured you were going to be pissed about that.

[Elena]

So pissed.

[Ash]

So she's examining these bottles, being like, what the fuck is going on here? And she heard more popping noises as this was happening. She went in the bathroom and a shampoo bottle and a bottle of liquid medication. Their caps had popped off, and they were tipped over, and the contents were spilling everywhere.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

And again, the kids are downstairs.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

So.

[Elena]

And it's not like it, like. Like, these bottles are, like, popping. Like, she hears, like, you hear the pop sound.

[Ash]

Like, it's not even. Like someone's unscrewing things and tipping it over.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

There's a pop happening, and the cap is, like, flying off.

[Elena]

Like, this doesn't sound like a child's behavioral problem.

[Ash]

No. And so it's weird. So in the kitchen, also, a bottle of cooking starch exploded.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

And in the basement, a bottle of paint thinner popped open and began spilling the contents.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

So, like, what the fuck is going on?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So they're all clearly alarmed by what's happening. So Lucille was like, I'm calling the police. I don't know what's going on. Like, is our house, like, about to explode? Like, what's. I would freak out, too. I wouldn't know who to call.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I mean, Ghostbusters. Like, what do you do?

[Elena]

Well, and weird things like that happen, and, like, it could be, like, a gas leak. Exactly.

[Ash]

Which when you really think about it, you're like, clearly it's not. But, like, you would think, like, I can't determine what is happening here. So, like, I'm afraid my house is going to explode.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So she called the police, and Patrolman J. Hughes was dispatched to the house.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So Hughes sat with the family in the living room to take their statement. And the officer heard popping noises coming from the bathroom. And they all went in there to look at what happened. And the officer found that both the medicine and shampoo bottle had spilled again and had popped their caps.

[Elena]

I love that. The ghost was like, I'm not gonna hide.

[Ash]

Yeah. He was like, oh, hey, officer, I'll.

[Elena]

Do this in front of the cops.

[Ash]

Call them. So Lucille and James Senior explained to Hughes at the time of the occurrences, there were no tremors in the house and no loud noises or disturbances of any kind that could be noticed.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

A few days later, on February 11th, the whole thing repeated itself in the house. And Lucille called the police again and was like, it's happening again. So Detective Joseph Totsi arrived at the Herman's house and very quickly and sat down to take their statement again. And he labeled this Report. I love it. Local investigation. Broken bottles. That's it.

[Elena]

Now put this one top of shelf, guys.

[Ash]

Broken bottles. According to Lucille, since the last officer had been at the house a few days earlier, quote, the disturbances appeared to be increasing in both number and magnitude.

[Elena]

Huh.

[Ash]

So, of course, Tootsie's first thought was, I think your children are playing a prank on you. Yeah, maybe. You know. And so he warned the children, he said to the children, if they were in any way connected with this case, and that they were causing the disturbances in some way. That is a serious matter. Yeah.

[Elena]

Cause you're taking up time.

[Ash]

Yeah. He was like, you have to know that, like, if police are being called and you're playing pranks, you're gonna be in trouble.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, stop it. Cut it out.

[Ash]

So Jimmy and Lucille, the kids were like, we did not do this. Like, I promise. And Tootsie said he was very convinced of their innocence. Like, they did not seem to have anything to do with this. Later that day, and much to the surprise of James and Lucille Herman, their story made its way into the evening edition of the local papers.

[Elena]

Oh, no. And they're probably like, please don't do that.

[Ash]

Oh, no. They loved it.

[Elena]

Oh, okay.

[Ash]

And one reporter wrote, the revolt of the bottles today gripped the once tranquil home of James Herman.

[Elena]

I can't imagine listening to that.

[Ash]

And it wrote, it probably wouldn't have seemed out of the ordinary to readers that a few bottle caps popped off unexpectedly. And then it said. But the article was quick to point out all the bottles that flipped their lids had screw type caps, and the caps were not bent or distorted. They just came off.

[Elena]

Which is weird.

[Ash]

Which is weird. Now, out of concern that there might be some sort of, like we said, gas leak, something weird, something dangerous that's happening, some unseen hazard in this house, James called Dr. Donald Hughes, which was an acquaintance of his who worked at the Brookhaven National Laboratory, which was a. Was a local atomic energy lab. So he's a very smart guy, casual. And he asked, like, is my family in danger? Should I get my family out of this house? What's going on?

[Elena]

Are we all going to explode?

[Ash]

Yeah. And Hughes told him, I cannot think of any cause for all of this. It's certainly possible that some bottles might explode from over development of gas, but it would have nothing to do with radioactivity.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So he was like, I don't think you're in danger, but, like, I can't explain to you what's happening.

[Elena]

I don't think you're in danger. But I also don't know.

[Ash]

But I don't actually know. I don't rightly know, sir. To summarize here, I don't rightly know. So by the next day, more news outlets had picked up this story, and they were calling it the Revolt of the Bottles.

[Elena]

I'm kind of obsessed with that.

[Ash]

I love all of this. Like, I love that the report was called Local Investigation Broken Bottles. I love that all the articles are calling it the Revolt of the Bottles.

[Elena]

I'm into it.

[Ash]

Like, the bottles are revolting against this family for some weird reason.

[Elena]

They're like, you know what? We've had enough.

[Ash]

Yeah. And like I said, the Hermanns actually, like, loved it. They were enthusiastically responding to press inquiries.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

On February 12th, Detective Tootsie returned to the house in response to another complaint. This time, they said additional bottle lids were popping off and a plastic angel ornament had a wing snapped off of it.

[Elena]

Oh, that's sad.

[Ash]

Yeah. So Tootsie took the bottles and the angel as evidence, but didn't really have anything else for them. He was like, yeah, I don't know what's going on here, but I'll take them as evidence.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So as he left that afternoon, there were, like, a ton of reporters, photographers, camera crews that had started to gather on the front lawn of the house. Of course, they were all interested to learn, like, this must be paranormal. What's going on? So Mrs. Herman led the group through the house.

[Elena]

She said, check all this out.

[Ash]

Sure. Pointing out where the various disturbances had occurred. And a man that nobody knew worked his way to the front of the crowd and introduced himself as, quote, a holy man from center. More riches.

[Elena]

I'm fucking obsessed with that.

[Ash]

He said, hello, I'm a holy man.

[Elena]

I love it.

[Ash]

It gets even funnier because immediately after introducing himself, the man just dropped to his knees. Dropped to his knees in the dining room and started praying loudly and excitedly for about 10 minutes straight. Okay.

[Elena]

So I don't really love that.

[Ash]

But when he was finished, he turned to Lucille Herman and said, everything's all right. You've been forgiven. And then he just walked out of the house, got in his car, and drove the fuck away. And no one saw him again.

[Elena]

That's the kind of energy I'm looking for. Minus the prayer. Like, just.

[Ash]

He's like, hello, I'm a holy man. And then he's just, boom, prayer, 10 minutes. And then he just gets up and he's like, you good. You've been forgiven. And then he leaves and never comes back.

[Elena]

What the fuck? But this is very early on in the story, so it seems like it didn't work.

[Ash]

But honestly, the star of the story, in my opinion, just introduce yourself and then go for it.

[Elena]

Also, way to feed the rumor mill by looking directly at Lucille and being like, it's all good and you've been forgiven.

[Ash]

What the fuck did she do?

[Elena]

Yeah, let's talk about something really important that most people don't realize. Did you know that there actually aren't any requirements for baby food companies to test their products for chemical contaminants? 93% of parents are concerned about the presence of toxic levels of heavy metals in baby food. But Little Spoon is the first and only baby food brand in the US to set strict limits for more than 500 toxins and contaminants based on the best, best in class European standards. And if their products don't meet these standards, they won't sell it. It's that simple. Peace of mind delivered. They surveyed 2,000 parents across the country so they could help understand what parents are most concerned about and help provide peace of mind for their customers. And how did they deliver? They've teamed up with the leading global experts and have committed to parents that every one of Little Spoon's baby food products is not only tested, but passes their strict standards or it won't be sold, Period. I absolutely love Little Spoon. Elena gives it to her kids and sometimes I really do be stealing their snacks. And Little Spoon snacks are delicious. You can see all of Little Spoon's baby safety standards in detail and shop their products for babies, toddlers and big kids on little spoon.com get 30% off your first order, go to little spoon.com morbid30 and enter our code morbid30 at checkout. To save 30% off your first order, that's little spoon.com morbid to save 30% off. When it comes to bras, we're done compromising. You can have it all. Beauty and comfort, support and breathability, all with Bali Breathe. At last, honey, Bali Breathe has arrived. A breathable and breathtaking collection of bras, underwear and shapewear that feel as good as they look. Breathe is the new collection from Bali, the leading national bra brand. Made with soft cotton, modal and beautifully soft lace with styles that offer comfort, smoothing and support. They also come in so many gorgeous colors. There are wireless and underwire styles. You know, I'm going to be getting the wireless ones. And the good thing though is that they all have the same light as air feel. They've got matching sets for when you want to feel put together with no added effort. And guess what? Bali Breathe revolves around you as the whole world should. But we'll deal with them later. I actually just ordered the T shirt bra. I ordered it in black and I ordered it in white because I'm a simple girly and I'm so excited for them to come. I can't wait to tell you all about it. Visit balibras.com and use code morbid for 20 off your purchase. That's BA with code morbid for 20% off your first order.

[Ash]

This supposed holy man from Center Moriches was just the first of many unusual characters to appear in the lives of the Hermans to give solutions some kind of explanation for what was going on in their house. That same day, the family was visited by Dr. Norman Fodor, who was a New York City psychoanalyst who had been study, studying studdling, studying, studying the phenomenon of ghosts for several decades. Decades. At this point, I don't know why I can't speak.

[Elena]

It's hard.

[Ash]

According to Dr. Norman, the destruction in the Herman's house was being caused by a poltergeist, which he described as, quote, a kind of biological life force that in some admittedly unknown manner leaps out of a person's body and physically affects objects at a distance. Okay, so Dr. Norman explained that poltergeist activity. And this is a thing related to poltergeist activity. It was, it's commonly associated with adolescents undergoing puberty.

[Elena]

I did know that, yeah.

[Ash]

And it's speculated that the poltergeist energy was likely coming from 12 year old Jimmy. Okay, now to the Hermans and the press and the public, Honestly, the explanation seemed as plausible as any at this point. They were like, sure, why not?

[Elena]

I love that the public is like down for this.

[Ash]

Yeah. The public was like, oh yeah.

[Elena]

Cuz usually they're like, they like ostracize the family and they're like, oh my God, they're fucking crazy.

[Ash]

I think in the 50s they were just like, sure, what else do we want to talk about? Why not? But they still welcomed any advice or any alternative explanations. They were just like, sure, we'll, we'll pin that one on the board.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The detectives at the 7th Precinct, for example, instructed Lucille to try an experiment. They said fill 10 bottles with water and watch them throughout the day to see if they were affected. But by the end of the day, they were still intact. Okay, so that's interesting. Meanwhile, an electrician from the Long Island Lighting Co. Visited the house and inspected all the circuitry top to bottom. He found no faulty wiring, no issues that could be causing disturbances. And the technician went as far as setting up a device capable of detecting the slightest vibrations and detected nothing.

[Elena]

That's really cool.

[Ash]

Other more supernatural explanations were definitely offered by the public, including those relating to the positions of, you know, the stars and the planets in the sky or something like that.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Which I'm like, I don't think that had to do with this. I don't think it had to do with this. You know, things related to high frequency vibration, the erosion of a stream under the house, causing the ground to shift in subtle, undetectable ways. People were really, really reaching for anything they could tap into here. Now, all the media attention surrounding what they were now referring to as the House of Flying Objects eventually extended beyond just New York, and it ended up reaching J.B. rhine, who was the founder of Duke Lee University's parapsychology lab in Durham, North Carolina.

[Elena]

Oh, cool.

[Ash]

Ryan was a botanist by training, but he had also maintained a very serious interest in the paranormal for decades. He was very, very into it. He was introduced to the concept in the 1920s, actually.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

When he and his wife attended a lecture by a man you might know the name of a world renowned author and paranormal enthusiast, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

[Elena]

Do we know him?

[Ash]

Sherlock Holmes. He wrote. I don't actually know who that is. Arthur Conan Doyle. Within a few years of that lecture, Ryan and a small number of research assistants started investigating because he was very, like, interested in what he had to say. And they started investigating the potential for extrasensory perception, ESP. By testing students at Duke University and officially starting the lab in 1930. So he really got into.

[Elena]

That's really cool. And very like. Like ahead of his time.

[Ash]

Yeah, truly. So Ryan and his institute at Duke were dedicated to the scientific pursuit of the paranormal. So from the outset, he hoped to apply the scientific method to researching the paranormal. And he enthusiastically rooted out frauds and charlatans in the paranormal world. He was gonna call your ass out. He was gonna debunk your shit. Cool. That's his job. Yeah. If he can't explain it, cool. But if he can explain it, he's gonna explain it. You're fine. He's like ghost hunters. Internet, you know? Yeah, like Taps.

[Elena]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Ash]

They debunk. So among the most notable achievements that he had was the debunking and defaming of Mina Crandon, who was a notorious psychic medium who had been defrauding and exploiting people for years through her seances.

[Elena]

Mina, Mina. That's true.

[Ash]

And he said, get fucked, Mina. Like, that's one of his notable achievements was proving that she's a charlatan. Hate that.

[Elena]

I love the word charlatan.

[Ash]

I do, too. But he had also been looking for an opportunity to begin exploring the poltergeist phenomenon, because that had become a thing in the paranormal world at this time. And he told a reporter of his learning of the Herman case. We are always glad to be informed of puzzling phenomenon, either human or animal. We don't have any record that has been adequately proved. So for the time being, Ryan asked a colleague in New York to look into the case and just kind of report back as to whether it was even worth investigating. He was like, take a look, Let us know. In the meantime, the activity of the Herman house. I had to take a deep breath after Covid. I don't know if anybody else. I'm still, like, my run out of breath, like, very easily.

[Elena]

That's not great.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's. Well, I still have a cough, so I think it's helping. So in the meantime, the activity at the house escalated in frequency and intensity. A few days after Totsi's last visit on February 13, the family continued to get experienced. The whole, like, bottle caps, you know, popping off of their bottles.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

All the contents spilling. And now the incidents were accompanied by objects flying around the room. Okay, hate that. In Jimmy's bedroom, a plastic angel ornament flew from its position on the nightstand and crashed into a statue of Davy Crockett four feet away.

[Elena]

That is the most iconic thing I've ever heard, period.

[Ash]

Angel statue crashing itself into Davy Crockett. Like that happened.

[Elena]

She said, fuck you, Davey.

[Ash]

And there were several. Literally, fuck you, Davy Crockett. And there were several other instances where things were flying at the family, essentially.

[Elena]

Interesting that there's been a couple instances of angels to, like, break in holy water.

[Ash]

Dive bombing. Like, oh, do you have a diamond now? Later that afternoon, a water bottle in another perfume bottle in the main bedroom lost their lids. The contents spilled out. But this time, the bottles were reported to be hot to the touch.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Now, Herman said, I just gone into the room with my son and daughter, and we noticed that another bottle had fallen. It was hot, as if lukewarm water was in it. This was the first time I had noticed, like, that particular thing. And what I say to that is, those are two conflicting ideas. How is it hot if there's lukewarm water in it? Thank you. Because when I have lukewarm water. It does not make the outside hot.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

It makes it lukewarm.

[Elena]

Correct.

[Ash]

So I'm confused by that.

[Elena]

Yeah. But if it's hot to the touch, it's like, was it, like, heated up somehow on the outside? And, like, press. And then, like, got pressurized, and that's why the bottles are popping off. And it's like somebody walking around with, like, a lighter.

[Ash]

Yeah. And it's like, remember, this is the 50s.

[Elena]

So it's like, did they have lighters in the 50s?

[Ash]

What do we.

[Elena]

Matches and what.

[Ash]

And I think that's what's important is, like, there's so many things in here where you're gonna go, well, it's that. But then you have to be like, wait, it's the 50s? Would they even know how to do that? You know what I mean? Like, there's. So you got to, like, bring it back to there and be like, wait a second.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

Not impossible. Like, all these things that we're going to come through, but, like, interesting at.

[Elena]

The very least, like what you learned in science at Jimmy's age.

[Ash]

I know. Because he's 12, remember?

[Elena]

So not. He wouldn't have, like, super advanced. Yeah.

[Ash]

You shouldn't have.

[Elena]

I mean, scientific knowledge.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Unless he's, like, really into science, which he could be.

[Ash]

His dad was friends with scientists. Like, so.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It's obviously, you know, But. But a few days later, the intensity of the attacks appeared to increase.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Bottles were now shattering, which is interesting. Ink was being thrown across the walls.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

And more ornaments and figurines were flying from the shelves and smashing on the floor or against the wall. To this point, it was the Hermans alone who'd experienced all this. Like, no one else was in the house. But on February 21, Detective Totsi was in the house when, in an adjoining room, he saw a porcelain figure shoot 10ft across the room and smash itself against the wooden secretary, putting a sizable dent in the wood. Wow. So it had to have been launched hard.

[Elena]

Yeah. And he saw that nobody was in that room. Like he said, it launched itself.

[Ash]

All he saw was this thing launch itself across the room, and it's a porcelain figure. And it hit that wooden thing so hard that there was a sizable dent, which is crazy. Which takes forth.

[Elena]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Ash]

So Tootsie documented this and returned to the precinct. But less than an hour later, he was called back to the house by Lucille. And when he got there, he found Mrs. Herman and the children huddled together in the hall, saying she figured that would be the safest place oh, because she was saying, like, everything are flying at us. Like, I'm afraid one of the kids is going to get hurt.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So according to Lucille, not long after Detective Totsi left the house, it went crazy. Like things. The ferocity and directness was something they had not experienced. Like that. It was. Things were being thrown hard and they were being thrown directly at them. And that hadn't happened before. Before it was kind of flying across the room, maybe near them.

[Elena]

Well, and that's kind of like what happens with poltergeist activity gradually. Exactly.

[Ash]

And in fact, whatever was, you know, popping caps. I knew you'd like that one.

[Elena]

I'm obsessed.

[Ash]

Popping caps. Like literally popping caps off bottles and hurling objects. Seem to now be doing so with the kind of like aggressiveness and malevolence that implied sentience. Like it implied that they. This thing was angry at the Hermans themselves.

[Elena]

I kind of love that. Right.

[Ash]

Like it applied. Implied that they are. This thing is trying to hurt them.

[Elena]

Like, I don't want it to hurt them. I don't love that. But I just. I love a sentient being. Yeah.

[Ash]

Like a set. This seems like a sentient. Like. Like it's making a choice.

[Elena]

Well, and it's interesting that that guy looked at Lucille before, dip it off into the sunset and said, they forgave you.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Maybe they didn't. Maybe they just told that guy to.

[Ash]

Get him out of it.

[Elena]

She was forgiven. Yeah, exactly.

[Ash]

Yeah. Now, it wasn't enough to alarm the family with like, you know, when it was like a few bottles popping off here and there. Like they were more just confused by that. They weren't like super scared because someone was hurting them under attack. But that's the thing. Now it's destroying their property and hurling objects at them and think like, of.

[Elena]

Like the sentimental things that you have that probably got disturbed and they're worried.

[Ash]

That this is gonna hurt the kids. So the disturbance on the night of the 21st was so intense that the next day James and Lucille thought it was best to go stay with family members nearby just to get a break. Like they were like, we don't wanna deal with the media anymore. We don't wanna deal with what's going on in the house.

[Elena]

Yeah, it seems like very overwhelming.

[Ash]

James Herman told a reporter, my wife has lost sleep during the last days and the kids are getting behind on their homework.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

So while they were staying with relatives, Lucille received a call from Helen Connolly, who was a 74 year old widow in Revere, Massachusetts.

[Elena]

Riviera.

[Ash]

Revere in Revere. Oh, yeah, we got Helen.

[Elena]

Oh, honey Riviere.

[Ash]

Here comes Helen from Revere.

[Elena]

My sister was thinking about moving to Revere and I was like, you gonna live in Revere?

[Ash]

And she said, no, not anymore.

[Elena]

She said, never mind.

[Ash]

So Helen from Revere called and she. And also 74 year old Helen, I.

[Elena]

Just have to do like a quick side note here. I had a client from Revere when I still worked at the hair salon, and her name was Tony and she had red hair and she was like an older lady. And she was the coolest broad I've ever met.

[Ash]

I love that.

[Elena]

And I love Tony. And Tony, if somehow, for some reason you're listening to this, I miss you. I love you. You're phenomenal.

[Ash]

Tony from Rivia, she was the coolest. Well, you know what, Helen, also, Helen just wanted help.

[Elena]

So was she cool?

[Ash]

So Helen called and she had read about the experiences in the paper.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

And she wanted to offer some advice. Okay, I'm Helen from Revere.

[Elena]

I got something to tell you.

[Ash]

She said, we had the same thing in April of last year. She told them, of course, tables, chairs, ashtrays, dishes, lamps, even an artificial fireplace was lifted like paper.

[Elena]

An artificial fireplace?

[Ash]

An artificial fireplace was lifted like paper.

[Elena]

Paper.

[Ash]

She said, Helen.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

According to Helen, a building inspector looked over the home and determined the cause of the problem was built up gases trapped in the chimney.

[Elena]

We had the inspector come out, he searched around.

[Ash]

My God. We had an inspector Sully come out and he told us that it was just built up gases trapped in the chimney.

[Elena]

It's just gases.

[Ash]

And when it was freed back into the house, it would blow items around the house.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Yeah. And while they were away, Detective Tootsie was like, all right, cool. Like that sounds valid, plausible, like, thank you, Helen from ria. She was like, that's all. I just wanted help. I think it might be gases. And you fucking. Do you have an artificial fireplace?

[Elena]

Queen. Queen.

[Ash]

So while they were away staying with family, Detective Totsi arrived, arranged for the home to have a turbine style ventilator installed on the outside of the chimney. And that would prevent any downdrafts from entering the house that way. Because he was like, let. Let's debunk that. Like, let's get that. Maybe that's it. Maybe. So it did seem a little unlikely that drafts were the problem in this house.

[Elena]

I don't know if drafts are causing objects to fly with trying to debunk, denting wood.

[Ash]

Yeah, we're trying to debunk, but yeah, Go for it. It was just, again, Tootsie said, I just want to rule out any potential explanation. And in response to a request for comment from a reporter, John Dittrich, a chairman of science at the Merchant Marine Academy, refuted this gases theory. He said, activity like that as the result of just the free movement of gases doesn't sound plausible.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

The idea sounds rather fantastical to me.

[Elena]

That's funny, because my response was, that sounds plausible.

[Ash]

I know. And it's.

[Elena]

And he was like, that does not sound plausible.

[Ash]

Now, if the Herman's temporary stay with relatives was supposed to give them a break from the media attention and the disruptions, it wasn't exactly successful, at least in terms of the media attention. In fact, them fleeing their home in desperation really only generated more interest in the story.

[Elena]

Makes sense.

[Ash]

And it didn't seem like the Hermans minded it, like, too much. They weren't, like, super put off by it. They definitely, like, entertained the press when they needed to. Like, I think they just kind of kept them on their side. Yeah. Which is smart.

[Elena]

I was gonna say.

[Ash]

You don't want them to turn on you. On February 24, Dave Khan, a reporter from the Long island newspaper Newsday, actually moved into the Herman's home while they were living with the family.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

To cover the story from a firsthand perspective, he wanted to experience it.

[Elena]

That's cool.

[Ash]

And in his first report from the house, Khan referred to his initial night as a frightening experience.

[Elena]

Really?

[Ash]

According to him, the activity began the evening of his first night, a little after 8pm as he and James Sr. Were sitting in the dining room having coffee. Out of nowhere, Khan heard a loud crash from the living room and rushed in and found a figure had smashed against the wooden secretary. Interestingly, Khan notes that just after he heard the crash, he jumped out of his chair and ran into the living room. And he said, but Jimmy got there before us.

[Elena]

Hmm.

[Ash]

Peloton has a ton of training programs, such as Pilates, boxing marathon, prep, strength training, boot camps. There's so many ways to challenge yourself. And personally, I am always trying to do just that. I'm trying to do just a little bit more each week to build on my best. And Peloton helps because you can see your actual progress right there on the screen. It's honestly something that's so motivating to me. I love it. And whether it's trying to get a new PR or working towards shaving time off your mileage, the instructors, classes, and programs make you want to dig deep and get after it. My Personal favorites are of course, my Bradley Rose. He is always making me laugh and always making me feel so motivated. But I also have found some new instructors that I love like Robin Arzone. She is so motivating. She makes me feel like I can push a mountain. She's amazing. So they pushed me hard enough to feel like I can beat my best. Find your push, find your power with [e-mail] we know you love a good.

[Elena]

Mystery or true crime story, but what if you could bring the story to life, honey? Well, organizing your very own murder mystery party is a piece of cake thanks to the Story Pop app. Choose a story or theme, invite friends and plan your party with the easy to use app. No need to print dozens of pages or memorize character sheets. The Story Pop app will assign roles and guide you through the mystery, handling all the gory details so everyone, including the host, can enjoy all the twists and turns. Immerse your friends in a world of mystery and make your next gathering or holiday party unforgettable. You know, this is right up me and Elena's alley. So we are planning our very own party with Story Pop. I am literally so excited. Download Story Pop in the App Store or Play Store and use code morbid to get your first game for free.

[Ash]

Now, a short time later, after the reporter had settled back in the dining room, they heard a, quote, low rumble come from upstairs. And when they went to investigate, they found that the dresser in Jimmy's bedroom had inexplicably tipped over. And he said, I tried when I heard the noise, like he tried to move it. Jimmy told his father and con, but he said, and a part of the dresser landed on my foot. I only saw it fall the last few inches.

[Elena]

Ouch.

[Ash]

So he was like in the room when it happened and it was actually like very near the dresser. In fact, he said it fell on his foot. Now that would lead you to believe that maybe Jimmy's doing these things. Well, yeah, I'm questioning, like, how can you not? There's that or there's the possibility, like they said, poltergeist activity can emanate from somebody in puberty. Going through an adolescent going through puberty. So maybe it's because he's around that that's why it's happening near him.

[Elena]

Or maybe two things can be true at once. These things are happening. But also Jimmy's having a little bit of fun at the same time because this is a little exciting.

[Ash]

And I think that's the most valid explanation. I think So I think this is not all Jimmy. I don't think it's all but partially, but I think maybe, maybe. I'm not accusing him.

[Elena]

No, allegedly.

[Ash]

Allegedly. Maybe he had something to do with it. Now, after the dresser fell, James Herman promptly called detective to Tootsie, who came out to the house but could not figure out what the fuck happened. He said there was something especially strange about the noises, or, excuse me, Tootsie didn't say this. Khan said this. Okay. The reporter. There was something especially strange about the noises accompanying both disturbances. It was almost explosive, which is. That's interesting, he said. And the low rumble lasted an abnormally long time. And both noises seemed to elude the immediate location. Later that night, other objects flew from their locations, including a large bookcase in Jimmy's bedroom that was seemingly pushed away from the wall by unseen hands. Most baffling of all, at least for Khan, was an incident that occurred the next night. It was a little after 9pm and he said, as I sat alone in the corner of the living room, a 10 inch cardboard globe of the world flipped silently out of. Out from Jimmy's darkened bedroom in my direction and bounced into the opposite corner of the living room. I jumped up, ran into Jimmy's room and snapped on the light. The boy was sitting up in bed, the covers over his legs. Naturally, I tried to discover whether Jimmy had thrown the globe. I found that it was possible but improbable. The globe could not have landed where it did if it had been thrown from the bed.

[Elena]

But could he have just huddled into bed really quickly?

[Ash]

He could have, but they said he would have to be very quick to get back in there, which he could. Okay. Now, when he noticed all the incidents that occurred at the home, he noticed that they all had one thing in common. The same situation with Jimmy has existed in every one of these strange occurrences since February 3, when they started tormenting the family. He noted that in every case, Jimmy was near the affected object when it moved. And in all cases, he possessed the strength to move the object himself.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

However, he did have difficulty accepting that Jimmy could have been the real cause for all the disturbances. He said there is the physical improbability of him having the speed to, say, get back in bed fast enough after slow throwing that globe or the strength to throw figurines with the explosive force they display, like denting the wood. So he ended up being driven to the theory, quote unquote, that had become the most popular and common at the time. They had a poltergeist and that it might be emanating from Jimmy.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, after following the story in the press and speaking with the Hermans and Detective Tootsie J.B. rhine, our scientist from before, was convinced that whatever was happening in the house was at least worth investigating at this point. So in early March, Ryan sent his trusted longtime assistant, Jay Gaither Pratt to Seaford in Long island, along with a relatively new member of his research team, William Rolle. William Rolle was a German psychologist who'd been with the institute for like a little less than a year. The two researchers moved into the house and started investigating, and they consulted with experts from RCA Communications who were brought in to determine whether the house was being affected by radio waves or other disturbances in the electromagnetic field. They really tried to debunk everything here. While the RCA scientists evaluated the house, Pratt and Roll set out interviewing the members of the Herman family about, like the beginning. Yeah, beginning till now. According to James, he became convinced they had a supernatural problem. On the morning of February 9, he said he was talking to Jimmy, who was in the bathroom brushing his teeth. And he said, I was standing in the doorway of the bathroom while Jimmy was brushing his teeth. And he said he told investigators, all of a sudden, two bottles were that were placed on the top of the vanity table, were seen to move. Both bottles moved at the same time.

[Elena]

Okay, that's weird.

[Ash]

He insisted that both bottles had previously been under the sink and were recently put on the table. So he concluded the caps had become unscrewed while they were under the sink.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

He was witnessing the bottles move on their own at that time. So he said, that's what made me think, okay, this isn't like gases or something. I'm. Something paranormal is happening here. Right. So since the phenomenon began in early February, the activity in the house really escalated day after day. And again it became really aggressive, especially in the presence of non family members in the house. But now that Pratt and Roll, two trained experts, were in the house, the poltergeist activity went completely quiet.

[Elena]

Uh huh.

[Ash]

The equipment set up by the RCA technicians registered no change in the electromagnetic activity in the home, didn't pick up any unusual radio waves. So Pratt made it pretty clear going into this investigation, one of the researchers, that their objectives were very clear. It was to decide whether one, Jimmy is deliberately causing these things to happen and cleverly concealing them. Because it is pretty clever how he's concealing them. Yeah, it is two, that Jimmy is the agent for a poltergeist, or three.

[Elena]

Jimmy, I'm thinking Of Jimmy. Just like signing a poltergeist.

[Ash]

Like being an agent.

[Elena]

Like an actual agent signing him on. Let's go.

[Ash]

Getting him some opportunities.

[Elena]

You know, we have an ad coming in for you.

[Ash]

Jimmy, it's time to tour. Let's go.

[Elena]

So it's like Jimmy from Hacks.

[Ash]

There you go. Jimmy's the agent, so he's like, poltergeist, it's time to tour. Let's take this show on the road. Or 3. That there's a mixture of both. That he's involved somehow, but not in the way we might think. Now, within a few days, Pratt and Roll had all but ruled out the involvement of James and Lucille the parents, and they ruled out Lucille the daughter. Okay, Jimmy. Lucille the daughter was often out of the house or was fully asleep when most of the incidents occurred.

[Elena]

She said, baby, I'm catching up on my beauty rust.

[Ash]

But the two identified Jimmy as the thing connecting all the events.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Though they did draw. They stopped short of drawing any conclusions about how previously, you know, previously, how he was involved. But their suspicions caused everyone in the house, parents, researchers, con the reporter to keep an extra close eye on Jimmy.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, since the onset of the poltergeist activity, like we said, it was everywhere. It was in the local, regional, national papers all the time. Readers had a really close look in on this family and the disturbances happening and the level of awareness that this caused. Was it kind of brought in like amateur sleuths, like what we would now have as Internet sleuths? Yep, even back then, in the 50s. But these sleuths had to write into the papers and call the police department with their shit. And this type of engagement can be interpreted as a kind of support, which was typically accompanied by explicit support from those following the story. But when the narrative shifted towards suspicions that Jimmy might be the cause of some of these disturbances, the public sentiment about the Herman's poltergeist, by then referred to as the pauper poltergeist.

[Elena]

You are so Boston.

[Ash]

Every time you say it's.

[Elena]

Especially when you say pauper poltergeist.

[Ash]

I think. I can't say 2ers.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It's like I can get one out, but it's the Boston.

[Elena]

And you just says stop.

[Ash]

Yeah. It allows one, it won't allow more.

[Elena]

Says, you can park the car.

[Ash]

I know I can't say it right.

[Elena]

That's funny.

[Ash]

Popper poltergeist.

[Elena]

I actually don't like it that way.

[Ash]

Poltergeist. So they were less sympathetic.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

At this point, I would be. Which Also like, remember, this kid is 12, everybody.

[Elena]

That's true. I mean, I wouldn't, I would just be like, Jimmy, what a turd.

[Ash]

Like, it's like he's so.

[Elena]

We were excited about bulletin.

[Ash]

The whole world bullying him, weighing in. But as public criticism of Jimmy, this 12 year old boy grew, James Sr. Did what any parent would do and took to the press to defend his son and emphatically rejected the belief that Jimmy had anything to do with the activity in the house.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

He said, because the scientists of this country can't come up with an answer to this. People are trying to make a scapegoat out of a 12 year old boy who can't fight back.

[Elena]

I mean. Yeah.

[Ash]

But James didn't stop there.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

He went on to say he, he threatened to bar anyone from his home who openly questioned Jimmy's intentional involvement in this phenomenon.

[Elena]

I understand the dad in him wanting to do that because I'd be like, fuck you. Don't come for my kid.

[Ash]

That's the thing. I can understand his role as a parent being like, fuck you. You're not questioning my kid.

[Elena]

But at the same time, you also want to figure out what's going on in your house.

[Ash]

Well. And it put Pratt Roll, into a lesser extent, Dave Khan, into like a. A difficult position.

[Elena]

Yeah. Because they're like, what if it is him?

[Ash]

Because if they want to find out what's happening here, if they want to remain in the home and continue to do their work, they have to ignore the idea, the theory that Jimmy is doing it.

[Elena]

And actually you really can't do that. That's not how the scientific method works.

[Ash]

Exactly. And so. Which is not good. So despite the growing skepticism and near total lack of activity in the house at this point, Pratt and Roll continued the investor investigation. So Pratt said, I draw no conclusion whatever whatsoever from the fact that there was no unusual occurrences after I came because there was so much turmoil in the house at that time. He said, you know, but nevertheless, the lack of activity made it unnecessary for the research just to stay in the house for very long while they were conducting the investigation.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

So they just returned to Duke and continued the research from afar.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

They were like, we don't need to be in the house. We didn't see anything right now. Less than one day after Pratt and Roll left Long island, it all began again.

[Elena]

Huh.

[Ash]

A table in Jimmy's room crashed to the floor, breaking a crystal table lamp, among other things.

[Elena]

It's interesting now that it, like a lot of it is happening in Jimmy's Yeah.

[Ash]

And the incident prompted another call to Detective Tootsie, who rushed to the house as soon as he was called. And according to Tootsie, James reported that at the time, his son was, quote, flat on his back in bed with the COVID spooled up to his chin, so he couldn't have possibly caused the table to fall. That's according to the father. Now, despite the convenient timing of the return of the activity, it does appear everyone involved remained unwilling to consider seriously whether Jimmy was causing the activity in the house. That's not great. Roll said. And this was one of the researchers, Roll. The fraud hypothesis would be easier to accept. And I get this, the fraud hypothesis would be easier to accept if it could be supposed that the other members of the family were acting as Jimmy's accomplices, like the parents. That is to say that, you know, Pratt and Roll would be more likely to accept the idea if it was a hoax, if it wasn't a child that was perpetuating this entire thing.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Pratt was equally emphatic in his rejection of the fraud theory, saying, I don't believe for a moment that there is any colossal hoax behind this. And these are two, like, very well respected, well respected researchers. And they don't need to be in the house anymore, so they don't need to bullshit. Right, Right. Like, so they're at least saying that. That they believe if there is a hoax happening, he's not families involved, and we can't seem to connect that.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

And the other one is saying, I don't believe that there's a whole hoax here. I think there's something happening. Now. While the return of the activity was, you know, an exciting development for Pratt and Roll, others were less enthusiastic.

[Elena]

The family.

[Ash]

Well, in Detective Tootsie, who's probably a little sick of this.

[Elena]

Yeah. He's like, I have actual crimes to investigate.

[Ash]

He literally said, it's the damnedest case I've ever worked on. I mean, it's beginning to go on forever. And it's true because for what had been started as a call about, like, you know, a weird disturbance about a month earlier, the case had exploded and started attracting all this attention from all over the world. And all of it was rooted directly through Detective Joe Tootsie. By March, Tootsie was spending a significant amount of time combing through the correspondences received by the 7th Precinct on behalf of the Hermans. Like, people writing in to say, this is what I think is happening. This is what you should do, blah, blah, blah.

[Elena]

And that's A lot of shit to come through.

[Ash]

And this was a lot of letters on how to deal with the problems with suggestions raised ranging from kill your house.

[Elena]

What does that exactly mean?

[Ash]

I like that one.

[Elena]

Kill your house. Like stab it, kill it, Kill the house. Shoot your house down.

[Ash]

And another one was, burn sulfur in every room. Oh, God.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Another one was, wave a white silk hanky in every room.

[Elena]

Wave a white flag. Say, you know, poltergeist. You know what? Poltergeist.

[Ash]

This is you. I like that one.

[Elena]

I will go to.

[Ash]

This one's my favorite. Buy a horse.

[Elena]

That's it.

[Ash]

You want to know why?

[Elena]

That's the tweet.

[Ash]

Horses have mysterious powers. So just buy one.

[Elena]

I agree that horses are mysterious. They are pretty mysterious. It's kind of like adding a lot of expenses in slutin.

[Ash]

And as much as Detective Tootsie would have liked to move on to more pressing matters, he was ordered to keep a close eye on this now wildly popular story. Yeah, he said the brass doesn't like anything to happen around here they don't know about. So he's like, so now I am stuck.

[Elena]

Here I am. What if death is only the beginning? In 1950s England, a milkman's daughter's lives are tragically cut short when his wife later becomes pregnant. He makes a claim that is frankly eerie. He says that his newborn twins are his dead daughters reincarnated. And he says he has proof. A true story hosted by writer, director and Emmy nominated actor, Will Sharp. This is Extrasensory, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House. Apple TV subscribers get special early access to the entire season. Follow and listen on Apple podcasts.

[Ash]

So by mid March, it seemed even the poltergeist had kind of grown tired of the whole thing.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

As six days, then 10, then 20 passed in the Hermann house without a single incident.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Despite the quiet in the house, enthusiasm and interest in the case definitely remained. Members of the public were still calling, sending letters, even dropping by the house.

[Elena]

Oh, I don't like that. Stay out of. Stay out of my house.

[Ash]

Yes. James told A reporter On March 17, two couples were over here with Ouija boards. Not sure what they were trying to do, but I didn't let them in. Do you think I want the whole house to fall down around our ears?

[Elena]

He said he has papa energy. He's like, get the fuck out of here.

[Ash]

Get the fuck out of here.

[Elena]

Get a life.

[Ash]

So the sudden end to the activity was surprising to James and Lucille Herman.

[Elena]

Which is all of a sudden was done.

[Ash]

Yeah, it was Just done. Who'd been dealing with daily destruction of their home for over a month.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But Pratt explained that in his experience, some things, such things tend to end that way. Lucille said. He said that whatever force had been causing it just goes away, and usually they don't come back. While the Hermans were certainly happy to have some peace and quiet in their home, the abrupt and, like, unceremonious end to the situation. Public doesn't like that. No, we don't. We don't like things. Just.

[Elena]

We like a neat bow.

[Ash]

Yeah. We need to know what's going on. Because they've been closely following the case, and they wanted an explanation.

[Elena]

Or they wanted an explanation.

[Ash]

So a short time later, Pratt and Roll provided the family with their report. Finally.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

The researchers counted a total of 67 incidents. Wow. 64 in which an object moved on its own.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

And three in which unexplained thumping could be heard somewhere in the house.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

The. So Roll wrote, gaither and I spent 10 days with the family under circumstances which we felt gave us, quote, close acquaintance with all of its members. And we were unable to accept the family hoax hypothesis as a reasonable one.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Interesting.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The researchers concluded that after ruling out fraud and other possible explanations, the RSPK hypothesis had to be taken seriously for this case. RSPK is recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis. It was a popular theory among those at the Duke Lab for explaining the decidedly unscientific Old world explanation of ghosts and poltergeists.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In Rolle's theory, a person, and in many cases children, can produce a discharge of psychic energy strong enough to disrupt the zero point gravity of an object.

[Elena]

That's really awesome.

[Ash]

The thing that keeps it in place.

[Elena]

It's Matilda.

[Ash]

Which caught. There you go. Which. Exactly. Which causes it to appear as though it has flown across the room on its own. This is more commonly observed in cases where the individual is in a highly aroused or unsettled emotional or psychological state, AKA puberty. Such as adolescents going through puberty.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

Roll wrote, the poltergeist has a reputation of being elusive, if not plain evasive. This was not true in Seaford. Things sometimes happen in full view of people and when outsider visitors were present.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So while the researchers were unable to conclusively prove a cause of the activity, they were inclined to believe it supported the theory of rspk.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

They were satisfied that the activity was most likely unintentionally caused by Jimmy.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

This seemed an adequate explanation for some people. Made sense. I'm happy especially Those who are eager to just, like, move on with the story.

[Elena]

Yeah, you get bored of a story after a while, like when you're experiencing. Experiencing it.

[Ash]

But not everyone found the RSPK theory to be satisfactory.

[Elena]

You're never going to satisfy everyone as hard as you try.

[Ash]

Nope. In their own report on the incident, the Parapsychology foundation of New York concluded that Jimmy was most likely the culprit.

[Elena]

Everyone, leave Jimmy. Leave Jimmy alone.

[Ash]

And they noted that he might have caused the disturbances by normal means if he so wished.

[Elena]

Well, you know what? Maybe he was just vibing in these streets.

[Ash]

Maybe.

[Elena]

What the fuck else are you gonna do at 12 years old? I don't know.

[Ash]

So you know. Although they were unable to prove their belief that Jimmy had intentionally caused the disturbances, that group, the parapsychology group, was headed by former Duke Parapsychology Lab researcher Carlis Osis.

[Elena]

I really love that name.

[Ash]

They pointed out to the suspicious timing of the events, which. This will give you a little bit of a pause.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

They wrote, disturbances during school hours occurred only on weekends, in the evenings after 8:30pm when, according to Mr. Herman, Jimmy had gone to bed. The. The phenomenon occurred at that point either in his room or in places near his bedroom door.

[Elena]

Jimmy.

[Ash]

In the hours when the children might definitely be assumed to be asleep, nothing happened. While this was their working theory, Osis was quick to add, of course, this is not an accusation, but merely one possible explanation. Yeah, the presence of James Herman Jr. Jimmy in all likelihood was a necessary condition for the occurrence of the phenomena.

[Elena]

So they're not necessarily saying he did this, but he's got to be awake and in the house.

[Ash]

His presence is needed. We're not saying he did this intentionally, but we're not not saying he did this intentionally. We're saying it's a possibility. While Osis and the Parapsychology foundation may have kind of hedged their bets with that one, they. They definitely avoided blaming Jimmy outright, which is nice. Yeah, that is n. Skeptical investigator Joe Nicholl had no problems placing the blame where he thought it belonged. In his review of the evidence years later, Nicholl wrote, taken as a whole, the evidence strongly points to 12 year old James Herman Jr. As having been the deliberate cause of the Seaford Poltergeist outbreak. The motive, means and opportunity were his, and the case was unwittingly prolonged by the credulousness of adults. So Nicholl points to the efforts made by magician Milborne Christopher to explain the phenomena in 1950 58, which included an Extensive recreation of the bottle popping and other incidents that he performed for Roland Pratt. So he was like, this can be done. Right, but by a 12 year old. Yeah, possible.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But it's just like, whoa, you know, like, that's a lot.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's advanced.

[Ash]

He said Pratt had no idea of the simplicity with which the effects were accomplished. And Roll imagined that James's tricks would have had to have been produced by special devices, which it would have been installed, operated, and removed in the presence of adult witnesses. So he was saying, like, Pratt and Roll were under the impression that whatever was happening here was advanced. Would have been very advanced in something, that he would have had devices, but not necessarily. But then Nickel was able to show him, like, some kind of like, magicianship, like, kind of like sleight of hand thing that he was like, you really don't need that advanced of.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You know, but like, did Jimmy know about this? Does a 12 year old know how to do that? I don't know.

[Elena]

Could if he's into magic and shit. But it's interesting and like you said, like, the. Was connected to scientists.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

Who knows what conversations he sat in on.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Or eaves dropped on, even.

[Ash]

And it's worth noting again, too, that the only reason Pratt and Roll really ruled out the hoax theory was that they couldn't fathom any of the adults in the house having been involved. They really didn't believe the adults were involved in this. And they couldn't accept the fact that Jimmy would have been able to execute this entire hoax on his own. But then Nichols kind of showing them, like, he might have been able to.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But he's also not proving inconclusively, like, conclusively, that he could do all of it. He's just saying, like, some of the stuff you're a little, like, iffy on.

[Elena]

He probably could have done that. Right.

[Ash]

Now, those who have investigated the case during and after the incidents, they agreed on very little. There was a lot of different theories going on. Everyone's kind of yelling at each other. But most do appear to be of one mind when it came for the motive for the activity. Like we said, like Pratt and Roll and a couple of other people said, the psychokinesis that they were talking about, how it can happen when somebody's in like, a very highly emotional or disturbed state. Yeah. So they figured that the destruction was caused unintentionally, maybe or intentionally. But they said either way, they think the motive might have been Jimmy's allegedly poor relationship with what they refer to as his Demanding and generally unsupportive father.

[Elena]

Oh, that's a bummer. But again, I didn't expect that.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah. And in the psychological evaluations of Jimmy and Lucille, the kids at this time, the child psychologist concluded that Jimmy demonstrated passive demandingness, hostility to father figures, impersonal violence and isolation of effect.

[Elena]

Oh, wow.

[Ash]

All of which they took to believe to be repressed feelings of anger towards his father.

[Elena]

That's really sad.

[Ash]

So that is. That can go either way. That can go with, did he intentionally do this for attention? Was what was that?

[Elena]

Or was it subconsciously?

[Ash]

Was this some kind of strange, like.

[Elena]

Poltergeist feeding off of this phenomenon that.

[Ash]

Happens because of his highly agitated and emotional state?

[Elena]

Almost like Carrie. Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

Like, could it be either?

[Elena]

Sure, yeah.

[Ash]

I could see both.

[Elena]

Oh, that makes me so sad. When the dad came out and said, you know, like, like nobody is like allowed to accuse my son. I was like, yeah, well.

[Ash]

And that's why, like, I don't know a lot about their relationship. So I don't want to sit here and like speculate that they had this awful relationship in everything. So I don't know if anybody really had like the ideal relationship with their father back then. No, he did come to bat for Jimmy during this whole thing, but I don't know what their relationship was before that. And we do have a child psychologist who's saying he seems to have anger towards his father.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So take with that what you will, but again, we don't have all the facts of that. So allegedly. There were of course other theories as to the cause of the disturbances. And the most interesting and outlandish were definitely offered, interestingly by younger readers of the papers who'd been following the story and wanted to weigh in.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

One 14 year old reader wrote in, it's the pressure in the bottle, that's what's making them pop.

[Elena]

That's it. Okay, girly.

[Ash]

But then the reader went on to say, I can also tell you what isn't the cause of these events.

[Elena]

What's not.

[Ash]

It isn't Martians or things on other planets as some seem to believe. Don't blame it on the Soviet Union or any other country either.

[Elena]

Huh?

[Ash]

Another reader though, take 15 year old Sandy. She said the Soviets might have done have something to do with the events, but why it's only happening in only one house? Well, that's a great question, Sandy, babe.

[Elena]

Sandy grew up to be a conspiracy theorist, so. Jesus Christ.

[Ash]

So we must ask, was it, was it a poltergeist? Recurrent spontaneous Psychokinesis, the Soviets, or a childish prank that caused the Hermann household to explode for one month, 1950.

[Elena]

We'll never fucking know. I'm willing to bet it wasn't the Soviets.

[Ash]

To this day, we don't know.

[Elena]

I know it's not Martians and I know it's not the Soviets.

[Ash]

We don't know whether it's a poltergeist recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis, the Soviets, or a childish prank. It could be any of them.

[Elena]

Based off, like, what I've heard today, I would like to think that it was poltergeisty and maybe influenced and like put on a little bit longer by Jim Jim.

[Ash]

I could see that. By Jim Jim, Jim, Jim. Now, after the media interest in the story died down, they just kind of like the family just settled back into their lives. Like James Sr. You know, unsuccessfully ran for public office before retiring from his job.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Lucille got a part time job as a school nurse after the kids moved out of the house.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

And Jimmy maintained that he had absolutely nothing to do with the activity in the house. All right. He did not intentionally do it, or intentionally, I should say. He said, maybe it was my vibes, but it wasn't me.

[Elena]

Maybe my vibes were off, but it wasn't my vibe. My fault.

[Ash]

He said, I did not do that. And according to the Hermans, they never had another experience like those in 1958. Wow. James told a reporter in 1987, Not a thing is h is happening around the house now. Everything's been peaceful and quiet every day since it stopped in 1958.

[Elena]

Interesting.

[Ash]

Jimmy graduated from college and went on to become the president of an electronics company in North Andover, Massachusetts.

[Elena]

Jimmy. Yeah. Wow. Where was the House of Flying Objects?

[Ash]

It was in Long Island.

[Elena]

Oh, Long Island.

[Ash]

Long Island.

[Elena]

Right. Of course.

[Ash]

Although the Hermans themselves may have like, kind of just faded back into domesticity, you know, by. I love domesticity, which is good for them. Their story definitely lived on past, past those that one year.

[Elena]

Here we are.

[Ash]

It be. It was the subject of everything from, you know, TV talk show fodder. Because remember that back then it was like all about that shit.

[Elena]

Oh, hell yeah.

[Ash]

Like, Ed and Lorraine were on talk shows. Like there was TV movie plots. And even again, one of the biggest ones, the main inspiration for Steven Spielberg and Tobe Hooper's 1982 horror film Poltergeist. Poltergeist.

[Elena]

Poltergeist.

[Ash]

They're definitely like, since then, since 1958, there's obviously been some, like, way more frightening and intense phenomenon that we can't explain, but the story of Seyfert's House of Flying Objects is definitely going to always have the distinction of being really the first modern paranormal investigation in the United States.

[Elena]

It's really cool.

[Ash]

And the first obsessively documented and like handled by the American press. Like this is the one that really was the first one to get the attention of the American press and just take it.

[Elena]

It really popped off.

[Ash]

It really popped off. So whatever you think is what you think and that's fine because I don't have a fucking clue. But I think, I think the vibes are off. So I think the vibes were off.

[Elena]

I think we can all agree that the vibes were off.

[Ash]

I think, I don't think. I don't think 12 year old Jimmy meant any harm and I don't think.

[Elena]

He did all of it.

[Ash]

Yeah, I really think he.

[Elena]

Well, intentionally.

[Ash]

I really don't think he meant any harm. If he had anything to do with it. I don't. And it seems like the family recovered after that and they went on to live peacefully and quietly. So. Good, good. Hopefully his relationship with his dad, if it wasn't great. I hope it got better.

[Elena]

Allegedly.

[Ash]

Yeah, perfect.

[Elena]

Me too. You know what an interesting story.

[Ash]

A very interesting story.

[Elena]

I liked that one because it's got.

[Ash]

A little spookiness to it, but it's more just like an interesting look at like, like the hoax of it all and the scientific investigation of it all.

[Elena]

I liked that part, like the scientific investigation because they took it really seriously and they didn't get. I like when they actually like genuinely scientifically investigate versus like the Ed and Lorraine kind of investigations. I think those are cool, but like we've talked about them a lot so it was interesting to hear like a different kind of investigation.

[Ash]

Like a straight up look at it using the scientific method.

[Elena]

Yeah. Kind of thing.

[Ash]

Like, I like that they do that because that's why I love. I think it's Ghost Hunters. It's Taps, right?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I always confused Ghost Adventures, Ghost Hunters, Ghost whatever.

[Elena]

I'm like 99% positive that ghost Hunters.

[Ash]

Is Taps and then Ghost Adventures is Zack Vegas.

[Elena]

Yes, precisely.

[Ash]

The Ghost Hunters, Taps. I really love. That's why I always loved that show because I just love the spooky vibes.

[Elena]

Of the show and the approach.

[Ash]

And it's like they're from Rhode island, so it's like they're Rhode island and. But they go about it intentionally going into Debunk and then they let things take it from there. But they don't go in being like, I think this is a ghost. They go in being like, I think something is up here and I'm going to figure out what it is.

[Elena]

Like Scooby Doo. I like that, but different.

[Ash]

That's a good way to go into, in my opinion.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Personally, that's how you would do it. A paranormal investigation is to go in with the intention of debunking and be surprised if you're surprised.

[Elena]

I think a lot of paranormal happenings are related to science.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like in some way, shape or form.

[Elena]

It's all energy.

[Ash]

It's all energy.

[Elena]

You know, drink every time I say.

[Ash]

And you know what? One of the real stars of this is Helen Connolly from RIA.

[Elena]

Everybody, everybody. Paul went out for.

[Ash]

74 year old. Helen was just out here being like, you know what? You know what? I had this. The same thing happened to me in April.

[Elena]

She said it was crazy.

[Ash]

It was crazy. My artificial fireplace. Like paper.

[Elena]

What is an artificial fireplace?

[Ash]

I think it's like one of those like literally fake little fireplaces.

[Elena]

Like a.

[Ash]

Like a movable fireplace.

[Elena]

Like a. What's that called?

[Ash]

That's what I can't see. Yeah. Almost like a space heater. But I think it's like looks like a little fire place.

[Elena]

Oh, okay.

[Ash]

Like it's got the aesthetic, all right. Of a little fireplace. But that like paper.

[Elena]

That's terrifying. Those things are also so dangerous. Be careful.

[Ash]

They are. Be very careful around those things, especially as we get into the winter months.

[Elena]

Be careful about your space heaters.

[Ash]

But yeah. Interesting.

[Elena]

Helen. Forever Helen. I really liked that case.

[Ash]

Jimmy's. I hope Jimmy's doing well.

[Elena]

Me too.

[Ash]

He seems to be. He's the president of electronics company. I hope he's killing it.

[Elena]

Go Jimmy.

[Ash]

You know so well.

[Elena]

I hope you guys are doing well too. We also hope that you keep listening.

[Ash]

And we hope you keep it win.

[Elena]

But not so weird that you don't sign off in your r accent.

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

Bye. Sa if you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining WonderYplo plus in the WonderY app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[C]

Hotshot Australian Attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty. Her specialty representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own.

[Elena]

She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all.

[C]

I'm Marcia Clark, host of the new podcast Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list.

[Ash]

She was addicted to the game she had created.

[Elena]

She just didn't know how to stop.

[C]

Now, through dramatic interviews and accidents access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informants Lawyer X exclusively on Wondry Plus. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify and listen to more. Exhibit C True Crime Shows early and ad free right now.