Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter

Summary

Morbid Podcast Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” – "Blue Beard" with Spencer Henry from Cult Literature

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Introduction to the Episode and Special Guest

In Episode 629 of Morbid, titled “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” and presented by Audible, hosts Ash and Elena delve into the captivating world of the Audible original, Blue Beard. They are joined by special guest Spencer Henry from Cult Literature, known for his work on Cult Leader Obituary and the upcoming show Gossip SP. The episode, released on December 13, 2024, provides an in-depth exploration of Blue Beard, blending true crime elements with immersive storytelling.

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Overview of "Blue Beard" Audiobook

Ash introduces Blue Beard as an Audible original that transforms a true crime case into a radio-style drama. The audiobook revolves around the chilling confession of Blue Beard Watson, who admits to the murder of ten wives. The narrative is deeply rooted in historical context, enhancing the authenticity and immersive experience for listeners.

Notable Quote:

Spencer: “If you hadn't listened to Bluebeard on Audible, you gotta go listen.” [30:31]

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Discussion on Blue Beard Watson's Case

The hosts and Spencer discuss the complexities of Blue Beard Watson's character and the psychological intricacies that enabled his heinous actions. They delve into his ability to compartmentalize and dissociate from his crimes, a likely survival tactic developed from a traumatic childhood and subsequent mistreatment by his parents.

Notable Quotes:

Elena: “He was never really taught to have a strong emotional tie to anything because his own parents treated him like shit.” [06:00]

Ash: “I think he just riddled our nervous system to anxiety.” [05:19]

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Insights into the Production of the Audiobook

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the innovative production techniques used in Blue Beard. The audiobook was conceived by Jim Clemente, a former FBI profiler involved in the D.C. sniper case, and co-authored with Peter McDonnell, an accomplished writer with 43 books. Initially intended as a documentary series, the project evolved into an immersive radio drama directed by a Canadian director experienced in this format.

The production employed a unique method of recording live in three different time zones, allowing actors to move through their spaces with microphones centrally placed to capture a 3D immersive audio experience. This technique enabled listeners to feel as though they are part of the unfolding narrative.

Notable Quotes:

Elena: “They recorded live in three different time zones… So you heard them in real time, like very organically.” [14:24]

Spencer: “I was like, oh, my God, she's cracked the code. Like, she got her confirmation.” [26:24]

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Character Analysis and Themes

The discussion highlights the depth of character development in Blue Beard. Joseph Fiennes portrays Watson, bringing a charismatic yet unsettling presence that aligns with Watson's manipulative and deceptive nature. The female protagonist, Catherine Wannebaker, is portrayed as a strong, proactive figure who resists societal pressures and actively seeks the truth about her husband's infidelity and subsequent crimes.

Notable Quotes:

Elena: “She was vital in unraveling this whole thing because she wasn't a product of that time and society around her.” [21:13]

Ash: “Thank you for making this girl a standalone badass.” [25:03]

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Representation and Agency of Female Characters

A significant theme in the audiobook, as discussed by the hosts and Spencer, is the portrayal of strong female characters. Catherine Wannebaker is depicted not only as a victim but also as a heroine who takes decisive action to uncover the truth. The narrative avoids common pitfalls such as romanticizing her journey or sidelining her agency, instead emphasizing her resilience and determination.

Notable Quotes:

Elena: “She really did do that. Like, she was vital in unraveling this whole thing because she wasn't even a product of that time and society around her.” [21:13]

Spencer: “It's the ultimate, like, going through his phone behavior. But then it leads you down this crazy rabbit hole where you're like, oh, okay, this is much deeper than I thought.” [22:30]

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Personal Reflections and Recommendations

Throughout the episode, Ash, Elena, and Spencer share their personal reflections on Blue Beard. They commend the audiobook for its immersive soundscaping, historical accuracy, and compelling narrative structure. The hosts recommend Blue Beard to listeners interested in true crime and historical dramas, highlighting its ability to transport audiences to the era in which the crimes occurred.

Notable Quotes:

Ash: “We recommend this title. 10 out of 10. If you haven't listened to Bluebeard on Audible, you gotta go listen.” [30:31]

Elena: “It's a three-hour listen. You could get that done in a day.” [30:37]

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Conclusion

Episode 629 of Morbid offers a thorough and engaging exploration of the Audible original, Blue Beard. Through insightful discussion and expert analysis, Ash, Elena, and Spencer Henry shed light on the intricate storytelling, character development, and innovative production techniques that make Blue Beard a standout true crime audiobook. Their passionate recommendations and detailed breakdown provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of why Blue Beard is a must-listen for true crime enthusiasts and fans of immersive historical narratives alike.

Notable Quote:

Ash: “We hope you keep it weird, but not so weird that you don't check out these titles today.” [33:32]

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Additional Recommendations

Towards the end of the episode, the hosts share their favorite audiobook recommendations:

• Elena's Recommendation: Sleep Tight by J.H. Marquardt – A horror novel with a chilling small-town setting and subtle supernatural elements.

• Ash's Recommendations:

  • Wayward – A whimsical title with multiple female narrators and soothing voice performances.
  • Butcher in the Wren and The Butcher Game by Elena – Memorable for their engaging narratives.

• Spencer's Recommendation: The Crime of the Century: Richard Speck and the Murders that Shocked a Nation by Dennis El Brio and William J. Martin – An in-depth look at the infamous Richard Speck case.

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Final Thoughts

Morbid Episode 629 serves as both a deep dive into the Blue Beard audiobook and a celebration of well-crafted true crime storytelling. The episode not only highlights the strengths of Blue Beard but also underscores the importance of strong character representation and innovative production in enhancing the listener's experience.

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Listen to Blue Beard on Audible

For those intrigued by the discussions and eager to experience Blue Beard, Audible offers a free trial. Visit audible.com/weirdos to start your journey into this gripping true crime narrative.

Transcript

[Ash]

Hey weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wonderyplus. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait. Try Wondery today. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify.

[Elena]

You're listening to a Morbid network podcast.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

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[Ash]

And I'm Spencer and we are having another installment of our Weirdos audio book club. So thank you for being here today everybody. We're grateful for you.

[Spencer]

So grateful.

[Ash]

If you didn't know, we have Spencer Henry from Morbid Network's Cult Leader Obituary and their newest baby show, Gossip sp.

[Spencer]

Hi everyone. I'm so excited to be here.

[Ash]

We're excited to have you. I feel like you're the perfect fit for this because you love like old timey True crime. Love it.

[Spencer]

There's a lot of reasons as we go into this title today why it resonated with me, and I just loved it so much.

[Ash]

Ooh, I'm excited to hear that.

[Elena]

Makes me excited.

[Ash]

I know. Well, before we dive into the title, we want to thank Audible again for the partnership and for bringing this special little bonus to all of you guys. Bluebeard is an Audible original, so if you haven't already listened, head on over to Audible to dive into this title. Our lovely friends are sweethearts at Audible and they're still offering that free trial for you guys. So you can take hold of that nifty [e-mail] weirdos for your free trial. And of course, we also covered this case on Morbid. It was episode 626. So if you need to refresh your memory at all or if you want to listen to that for your next morbid listening journey, it's there for you.

[Elena]

It's there for you. We're there for you. This title is there for you.

[Ash]

We're all. Everything is there for you.

[Elena]

It's true. Do it. It's a crazy case. Like this case I went into because it was my episode when we covered it on Morbid.

[Ash]

It was my episode.

[Elena]

It was my episode. Not yours. It was mine. And when we went into it, I was like, oh, I think I've heard of this. I don't know if I like, I don't know the details, but I was like, oh, this is like one of these guys that just, like, abandons women and takes their money. Like, you know, the classic tale, like an H.H. holmesy style guy.

[Ash]

So much deeper.

[Elena]

And it did kind of feel like he had those vibes to him just because of all the fraud and shit he was committing, like, across borders and shit.

[Ash]

And the aliases, the alias eye.

[Elena]

Like, this guy's bonkers. Oh, he is wild and organized.

[Spencer]

And I'm like, rip Walter, you would have loved Tinder.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. Truly.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

That would have made his scheme so.

[Elena]

Much easier because, like, thinking about, like, the log books and shit that he had to keep to keep his different wives straight.

[Ash]

Keep track of them. Yeah.

[Elena]

In, like, letters.

[Spencer]

Wanted to.

[Elena]

He would absolutely. Like, he had to keep, like, his, like, communication with them straight. What he told one, what he told the other. Like, the different stories he was telling them about why he was out of town all the time. Like, I can't remember what I had for dinner last night.

[Spencer]

No, that's a lot to keep up with.

[Elena]

Yes. Stressful. I can't imagine what his nervous system Looked like, oh, it was riddled.

[Ash]

It was riddled with anxiety.

[Elena]

Maybe it wasn't, though. Maybe he was just totally cool as a cucumber.

[Ash]

I mean. Yeah, I think he just riddled our nervous system to anxiety.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Spencer]

Well, I think he just was really good at probably compartmentalizing all of this.

[Ash]

Yes, definitely.

[Spencer]

Kind of like dissociating from all of it. Like.

[Elena]

Yeah, he had to have.

[Ash]

It's a good point. He brought. And he probably learned that in childhood because, like, if you go back and listen to the episode where we cover the real case, like, he definitely had a gnarly childhood. Yeah, so that's a good point, Spencer.

[Spencer]

Oh, I listened Wild.

[Elena]

Listen, you better believe.

[Spencer]

But yeah, I think a lot of times it's like, survival tactic is learning how to compartmentalize all those separate areas of your life and kind of dissociate from them a little bit. And that's probably how he was able to do that and not have these really strong emotional ties to anything.

[Ash]

Definitely.

[Elena]

He was never really taught to have a strong emotional tie to anything because his own parents treated him like shit and his mother really treated him like shit. And then, I mean, once he finally got out of there, what was he, 12 years old? I think when he got out of there and went on his own, it's like, then the world treated him like shit. And obviously that's no validation or, like, justification for what he did. It's just. I think this is why he was able, like you said, to just, like, shut it off. Because he was like, well, no one's ever had any connection to me, so why should I have a real connection to anyone else?

[Ash]

I think you're. I think that's exactly it.

[Elena]

Yeah. Everyone used him for what they could get out of him, so he just decided that that was the life he was going to live. And he did it, in a way.

[Spencer]

Yeah, did it.

[Elena]

Exactly. And he could have gone the other way. Plenty of people have. Plenty of people have tragic backgrounds. Plenty of people get treated like. And they go on to be amazing people who are like, I'm not going to continue this cycle, but he's an.

[Spencer]

Go to therapy.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Spencer]

Go to therapy. Get a gratitude journal.

[Ash]

Be grateful.

[Elena]

These are all steps.

[Spencer]

Do some self work.

[Elena]

Well, before we get into it even further, I just want to talk really quickly about the writers for this title and the process, because it's really. This is an interesting one.

[Ash]

It is.

[Elena]

So one of the names you're definitely going to say, wait a second, I know that name. Jim Clemente. Is one of the authors of this. He's a former FBI profiler who was part of the team that cracked the D.C. sniper case, which is wild.

[Spencer]

Yeah, that's a big deal.

[Elena]

He's been part of, like, huge cases. Like, this guy has flex on Flex on Flex. He's a former New York prosecutor. He's a writer and producer for Criminal Minds.

[Ash]

Oh, love that show.

[Elena]

Yep. He's a podcaster for real crime profile, Best case, worst case, FBI profilers and criminal archives.

[Ash]

He's after our own heart with all those podcasts.

[Elena]

He is. And he's also a consultant for law enforcement and for creative projects that involve his, like, massive expanse of expertise. And he's just like, wow, impressive. And he had, like, a really tough, like, beginning to life as well. He has a lot of, like, things in his backstory that he could have turned the other way and he went this way. So he's like, also very inspirational if you read up on him.

[Ash]

Definitely.

[Elena]

And he was a first responder at 9 11, so. Wow. Yeah. So he's just. How do you even lift that resume? Like, I don't even know how he carries it around with him.

[Ash]

Right.

[Spencer]

He's done it all.

[Elena]

And then his co author was Peter McDonnell, who is an author with 43 books.

[Ash]

Like, damn, 43 books. That's insane.

[Elena]

Like, what?

[Ash]

That's all the books.

[Spencer]

I don't even know. I've read 43 books.

[Elena]

I can't name 43 books. Like, wow.

[Ash]

Truly.

[Elena]

He's also a podcaster and a journalist. So together, this was the perfect team, I think, to dream team like this. Yeah.

[Ash]

100%.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Spencer]

A good duo.

[Ash]

Really.

[Elena]

The duo of the century.

[Ash]

Well. And what's interesting is they went into this actually thinking that they were going to make a documentary series.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

And then it turned into this title, which I. I love knowing, like, how a project started and evolved. And I feel like, I mean, this still could make an excellent documentary series. But I'm glad that they did the title.

[Spencer]

That makes so much sense if you listen to the title that it was laid out that way because my favorite thing about it was, like, just listening to it. Like, you can fully have visuals on everything that's happening at the time. They did such a good job with translating that.

[Ash]

Yes, 100%.

[Elena]

They really did.

[Ash]

And it reminded me a little bit of your new show, Gossip sp, with all the soundscaping and everything.

[Elena]

The, like, immersive experience of it.

[Ash]

Oh, Spencer's gonna love this.

[Spencer]

I. No, I truly, all of it. I was like, obsessed Listening to it the whole time, I felt like I was like in an old detective novel.

[Ash]

Yes, you get transported when you can.

[Elena]

Hear the music, like the old timey. Like I'm like, I just.

[Spencer]

Give me a cigarette, babe. Yes, and let me just.

[Elena]

Let's solve a crime.

[Ash]

Give me a cigarette and a fedora and I'm ready to go, baby. Well, it all got started when Jim Clemente's friend, he was helping this elderly woman just clean out a storage locker. Like most inconspicuous thing you could ever think of, you know, and she, they were like clearing out random boxes.

[Elena]

And this was in la, right?

[Ash]

In la, yes. And she told him, oh, you can just get rid of that box over there. And he was like, okay, like, maybe we should check inside first, just, you know, make sure nothing important isn't here. And something important was in that box. It contained this leather bound tome and that contained Bluebeard Watson's confession inside, which is insane.

[Spencer]

I just got chills.

[Ash]

Yes, he confessed to the murder of 10 wives. And to think that that leather bound tome was in there containing that confession. Full confession, like three days worth of confession. And this tome actually belonged to the one and only J.B. armstrong, who's the PI that was hired by Catherine when she suspected that her husband was just cheating. Ms. Wambacher was Mrs. Walmbacher. Exactly. So just literally opening that up and sifting through the pages must have been bonkers. Wild bananas. Yes.

[Spencer]

Imagine finding that.

[Elena]

Oh, and Jim Clemente has it now in his personal collection. Yeah, he got that leather bound tome.

[Ash]

Our producer Mikey got to talk to him and he showed him on the zoom and we were all Mikey was showing us afterwards, we were like, oh.

[Spencer]

My God, we got Jim on the horn.

[Elena]

Let's get Jim on here.

[Spencer]

Show me your book.

[Ash]

Show me that leather bound tome.

[Elena]

Jim, I want to see your book.

[Spencer]

I'm trying to see it.

[Ash]

Well, obviously they were immediately interested in this story once they heard about this discovery and once they, you know, sifted through this tome of theirs. So they researched Watson even more to find out about his crimes, his detailed confession. And when I say detailed, like I said, it took this guy three days to get everything out. And it was that confession that really voiced the narrative of Watson in this title. So it's very true to whom Watson actually was.

[Elena]

Yeah, for sure. And you can tell like he does because it's Joseph Fiennes that plays him. He does a good job of making him like unlikable, unlikable. But you could see why women like would be Drawn to him in a way, almost. Yeah. Because if you were going, he like walks the line.

[Ash]

If you were going into this story blind, I think you would be like, oh, I like this guy. Like, what's this story? But if you know the case and you go into it, you're like, I don't like you, but you're kind of like toying with yourself. Of like, I kind of want to like you, but I know what you do. Yeah, you know, for sure. But after working out the whole story, Clemente McDonnell pitched this story to our. Our friends over at Audible and they suggested maybe converting it into a radio style drama, actually. And ultimately it ended up being directed by a Canadian director. And this is interesting. Canadian radio style dramas continued way past the point where they did in us, like when we transitioned over to tv, so was really well versed in that type of production because, you know, they experienced them way longer. But to talk more about the production, let me hand it over to my.

[Elena]

Girl Elena, because this is really interesting. Like Spencer said, it's like a super immersive, like, you feel like you're there experience. And that definitely goes for some of the actors, like Katherine, played by Karen. David Watson's played by Joseph Fiennes and JB Armstrong. Our guys, Adrian Pazdar. I think the three of them did an amazing job. But what really set this whole thing into a different realm, I think, is that how they recorded this. So they recorded live in three different time zones. First of all, each recording space for each actor, it was set up and movement was choreographed so the actors would move through the space while the microphone was set in the middle of the room. So all of this would impact the sound. So audio was like 3D immersive. You heard the movements that they were making because they were physically making those movements in a room.

[Ash]

Like it wasn't put in later or something like that.

[Elena]

So you heard them in real time, like very organically.

[Spencer]

Wow.

[Elena]

Isn't that cool?

[Spencer]

It is cool.

[Elena]

And I feel like that's a very different and unique style of doing something like this.

[Ash]

Definitely. And just the fact that people in three different time zones were able to collaborate like this, I'm like, damn, I can barely get a meeting on the books with East Coasters.

[Elena]

Literally. That's the thing, you know, like we were trying to. We can barely get time to hang out with friends. Like just us trying to all get our schedules.

[Ash]

Meanwhile they're like, let's soundscape this shit and record the entire title all at.

[Elena]

Once in three different time zones. Wow.

[Spencer]

That's incredible.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's crazy. So what I think also makes, like, takes this one and kind of, like, separates it from a lot of titles is the way that the. This is obviously inspired by a true crime case, and they kept a lot of it very true to what happened. And the way that they kind of, like, fictionalized parts of it, to me, didn't impact the case in a way that was, like, negative, I think. I think, if anything, it only made it easier to follow, you know, I definitely agree.

[Ash]

Like, the plot, it just added to the story, but it didn't add anything unnecessary, you know?

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Spencer]

Totally.

[Elena]

And it's just an engaging way to tell the story. Like, with this radio style and 3D audio, it, like we said, pulls you into each scene. You feel like you're there. You feel like if you close your eyes, you can just, like, hear all the. Because it's like we were talking about before, like, the music in the background, and you can hear someone lighting up a cigarette, and you can hear. So you feel like you get this. Everything happening all around the room kind of feeling. And it's also cool that this narrative definitely places it in that specific time and place. Like, it has nods to the formation of the Bureau of Investigations, which is, like, blowing. That would. That blew my mind. Just like, being in a place that you're like, oh, that didn't exist yet. Like, fuck. And it was also like the end of the Spanish Flu that they have a nod to the beginning of Prohibition. I think all those things being tapped at during this really placed you in that time.

[Ash]

Yeah. Place you. And, like, little reminders along the way, like, this is where we are.

[Elena]

You know, like, we're not in 2024.

[Ash]

Right.

[Spencer]

Well, I kept thinking of other, like, infamous crimes of that time, like the Wineville Chicken Coop murders and all of these Los Angeles crimes that happened. I mean, not the same year, but, like, within that realm. And it's just. I don't know. It's so fascinating to see how everything was handled.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Spencer]

In those days in comparison to now. And it's. There's a lot of things that you look back and you're like, why would they do that? Why wouldn't they do this? But a lot of what they were doing is still really advanced, given the tools that they had at the time.

[Elena]

Yes, absolutely. We're always talking about that, how in these time periods, it's like, we don't have a camera on every street corner. We don't have someone with a phone recording it. We don't have a digital footprint. We don't have this and that.

[Ash]

Even, like, fingerprinting was still in its infancy. You know, it took a lot to solve these crimes, which makes it more fascinating, in my opinion.

[Elena]

Yeah, for sure.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Spencer]

Well, it makes you wonder, too. Certain crimes that happen today, you're like, how'd they not figure that out? Everyone has a fucking crow in their house.

[Ash]

Because it's like, how are they catching.

[Elena]

These people with literally just, like, boots on the ground detective work here? Like, that's what this is. And I mean. And also, like, speaking to how they were able to solve this stuff, one of the great themes in this whole thing is women not being passive and seeking out answers, which I love, because.

[Ash]

You think of this case as a whole, and I mean, women are the ultimate victims in this case, but they're also the hero of this case.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

Like a cat is a fucking boss.

[Spencer]

Yeah. You want to talk about feet on the boots on the ground?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Spencer]

Let's talk about Catherine Wannebaker, because let's talk about her. Damn.

[Elena]

Because she was also the one. First of all, she wouldn't let anything. She wasn't letting that go in the beginning. She was like, I'm pretty sure he's having an affair. Fuck him. We're gonna catch him.

[Ash]

I'm getting my divorce. Yeah. Just to think that she needed to have, like, a straight up reason to get divorced and, like, a very compelling one. Not just like, somebody had to be. Her husband had to be guilty of a crime for her to be granted the divorce. You should just be able to have a divorce if you don't like his ass anymore.

[Spencer]

Yeah, it's so. Yeah, it's so complicated because even now, there's. I mean, it's a lot easier to divorce somebody now, but it's still like, this personal battle that I think a lot of people have where there's so much back and forth. So I can't imagine doing that. And on top of that, having to have, like, a good reason in the eyes of the court or the law in order to go through with it.

[Ash]

Right. And that, like, even cheating was barely sufficient.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Spencer]

You can tell Katie is having that, like, personal grapple because even when she knows how terrible he is, and she's, like, working with the private investigator, when. When Walter calls her and talks about wanting to knock her up, she's like, well, maybe I should call this whole thing off. And I was like, girl, no, don't be like, no. But it shows that she still was kind of, like, battling with Lots of whether or not she should.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Spencer]

Just kind of ignore everything and put it on the back burner.

[Elena]

She was a product of the time.

[Spencer]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I was just gonna say society was influencing her big time.

[Elena]

And being like, maybe I should just have a baby with him and we can have that, you know, classic family, and I'll just ignore everything.

[Spencer]

You know, what fixes a toxic relationship.

[Elena]

Yeah, that'll fix things.

[Ash]

Well, and like, to. To prove your point even further, like, to add to it, she. He went after older women, like widows, people who had previously been married and lost somebody. You know, like, these women did want to have families. And for a lot of them, it was like their quote, unquote, last chance to have a family.

[Spencer]

Yeah, they're vulnerable, they're susceptible. They're kind of, like, backed into a corner again by societal norms and societal pressure. But, yeah, absolutely. 100%. Yeah.

[Ash]

I want a high five. Cat from the future.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

And like, girl, you did it.

[Elena]

And wild cat, like, in the. In the actual case, she didn't, like, you know, team up with the. And like, go to the extents that she went to. And in the title, she did not. It wasn't her just sitting back and not doing this stuff. Like, she, like we said, was the one who was like, I'm pretty sure he's having an affair, and I'm not letting it go. So JB Armstrong, like, let's get going. And she even provided additional information and documents to further prove, like, once it started unraveling, she was like, oh, here's all this shit. If that's going to help you nail him. Like, here it all is.

[Ash]

Like, I found some more shit for you.

[Elena]

And that's her in real life. Like, that she really did do that. Like, she was vital in unraveling this whole thing because she wasn't even as a product of that time and society around her at the time. She wasn't a woman who was going to sit down and just be comfortable passively letting these things happen to her. She knew something was amiss right off the bat. She took action right off the bat. And of course, she had no idea, like, no way of knowing how amiss.

[Ash]

Things were, what exactly she was unraveling.

[Elena]

Here and what she was up against. And it's like, once she found out that there was, like, way more shit than just an affair, that she was like, he could possibly be murdering these women, and, like, he. Maybe he was going to murder you instead of, like, like, just falling apart, which she had every right to do. Hearing that Kind of news about your husband. She turned around and was like, how can I help? How can I make sure that he doesn't do this to anyone else? And like, What a badass.

[Spencer]

100%. She, like, followed her intuition.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Spencer]

And I mean, it's the ultimate, like, going through his phone behavior. But then it, like, leads you down this crazy rabbit hole where you're like, oh, okay, this is much deeper than I thought.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

I love that her version of going through his phone is trying to get into his briefcase.

[Elena]

Yep. His duffel bag that he carried around everywhere. Which I'm like, could you be more conspicuous?

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

Just carrying around a duffel bag of.

[Ash]

Marriage certificates and be super weird about said briefcase slash duffel bag. You're gonna carry around a bunch of shit. Don't be so weird about it.

[Spencer]

Listen, she is a victim in this situation, but there were several red flags, especially like when you're listening to her narrative in the title. I mean. Well, first of all, I was laughing in the beginning because she's talking about meeting Walter for the first time and she's talking about how he kind of catfished her. And she says no one would accuse him of being handsome, which is diabolical.

[Ash]

That is a read.

[Spencer]

Is the biggest read. Also in the book, she's talking about, like, you know, how they got married after four weeks. And she's like, I couldn't think of a reason I shouldn't. And I'm like, girl, I can.

[Elena]

I can think of 10.

[Spencer]

Yeah. I could think of 22 different reasons why.

[Elena]

Let me list them out for you. Cuz he was described as being like a gnome. Looking ugly. He.

[Ash]

Absolutely paraphrasing.

[Elena]

But it was like he was like a gnome. Like, man, that's how they described him.

[Ash]

Little alpha, too, in his mug shot that I just want to rip off.

[Elena]

Take it right off.

[Spencer]

I mean, I don't see it. I don't. I mean, who knows what was going on with Walter otherwise?

[Elena]

Who knows?

[Spencer]

Looks wise.

[Ash]

I think he had charisma working for him, unfortunately.

[Elena]

And that can work. Charisma that can do the trick.

[Ash]

Uniqueness, nerve and talent.

[Spencer]

And she said too, when he moved in, he moved in with little possessions. And that is also the goal.

[Ash]

That's ideal. Don't disrupt my space.

[Spencer]

Yeah, yeah, we don't need.

[Ash]

You have four things. Great.

[Spencer]

Your collections here. Okay.

[Elena]

Yeah, we don't need that.

[Ash]

Got your briefcase, fist over there. Everything else gotta get rid of.

[Elena]

Yeah. I think he was just a master manipulator. Definitely master manipulator. And he was a character.

[Ash]

He was playing a character. Of course, it's easy to make somebody like a character at all times.

[Elena]

He was playing a character. You're playing a role I do love. One of the things I love that they did do in this title is for a brief period of time while I was listening, I was like, oh, are they gonna make Cat and Detective Armstrong fall in love? Because I will not be pleased with that.

[Ash]

I was worried.

[Elena]

It felt like that might have been the direction they were going. And I was like, don't you dare take away her agency like that.

[Ash]

But.

[Elena]

But they didn't do it. They did not do it.

[Ash]

And I have to say, from coming from two Men authors, thank you.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

Thank you for making this girl a standalone badass. Yeah.

[Elena]

And just letting her have her own agency and being her own character, that was just like being a badass and wasn't trying to fall in love with another guy.

[Ash]

What was the test that we were talking about? They passed that test.

[Elena]

The Bechdel test.

[Ash]

They passed the Bechdel test.

[Elena]

Yeah, it did. Because it's not just having this woman be completely in relation to what she's.

[Spencer]

Doing with damsel in distress. Like, please help me. I don't know what to do. She's like, yeah, here's what to do here.

[Ash]

This is what I want to do. Put your cigarette out. It's gross. And let's go.

[Spencer]

Let's go.

[Elena]

Don't be dumb.

[Ash]

Did you guys have, like, a favorite badass be Moment of Cats?

[Spencer]

I mean, I'm a real sucker for any sort of library scene or imagery in a book. And, like, when they're talking about, like, going through the records and she's in the library, I mean, I get chills thinking about it right now. But when she was going through all the different Lonely heart ads and, yes, this under different names, but the same.

[Elena]

Comparing them all.

[Spencer]

Yeah, comparing them all. And seeing that it was clearly all written by Walter, I just had a moment where I was like, oh, my God, she's cracked the code. Like, she got her confirmation.

[Ash]

And how chilling, too, to come to that realization.

[Elena]

And the amount of people who tried to convince her that these were just other men stealing that Lonely hearts ad.

[Spencer]

Oh, the gaslighting.

[Elena]

The gaslighting was outrageous.

[Ash]

Wait, people trying to gaslight a woman? That's crazy. I've never heard that.

[Spencer]

That actually never happens, you guys.

[Elena]

No, it was. That's why it's fiction.

[Spencer]

You know, you women, you're hysterical.

[Elena]

You're so craz. That's us. We're just kooky.

[Ash]

That's us. What was yours, Elena?

[Elena]

My badass bitch moment was definitely. I loved when she was, like, hiring JB Armstrong. And he was, like, being like, whoa, whoa, whoa. At first. And he's like. Cause she's like, all right, so what do we need to do? What do you need me to start working on? And he was like, no, no, no. You're my client. Like, I'm the detective here. I'm the investigator. And she was like, actually, no, you're my partner now. Were working together. If you're not willing to treat me as a partner, I'll go find someone who will.

[Ash]

And I was like, snap, snap, snap. I was like, yes.

[Elena]

She was like, I don't need to be here. I'll find somebody who actually respects the partnership and doesn't treat me like a little peon.

[Ash]

Because this needed to be a partnership. She had so much of the information that they needed.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Spencer]

100%. And I think, going back to, like, when she cracked the code, I think it was just like. I loved that she figured it out on her own. Like, she didn't.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Spencer]

Have anybody else really helping her?

[Elena]

Nope.

[Spencer]

Other than the Hillary the librarian, who. I love becoming friends. And at the end of the book, when there she walks into the courtroom and she sees Hillary from the library there, and Hillary's like, I'm here for you.

[Elena]

I was like, oh, God, I love.

[Ash]

That's the thing. I love that. One, she didn't fall in love. And two, she found another female friend to be a badass with.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

Love that.

[Elena]

And again, two, like, male authors, like, snaps to them.

[Ash]

Yes. Showing that was great female friendship and bonds.

[Elena]

And they did a great job with it.

[Spencer]

Did you have Monash?

[Ash]

Oh, yes. This is small, but I love the way that she handled that hotel owner when she was trying to use his car. She was like, I will not be swayed. Thank you. Like, Like, I'm not happy. Not happy.

[Elena]

She was so confident.

[Ash]

She wasn't.

[Elena]

That. She was just like, yeah. No.

[Ash]

She's like, I will be taking your car. Thank you.

[Elena]

Thank you very much.

[Ash]

Thank you so much. I just. I feel like they gave her her flowers in this story.

[Spencer]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, showed off her badassery. And again, especially given the time period, it was very brave of her to do what she did. And she obviously faced a lot of adversity while she was doing it, but look what she fucking did.

[Elena]

Yeah. Without her, it could have kept going on and on and on for a long time.

[Ash]

And to think how many More people he could have killed.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Spencer]

Okay. So obviously I live in Southern California. I live in Los Angeles and I used to live in Signal Hill, which is a small unincorporated area where the body of Nina Lee Deloney was found.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Spencer]

I was like going through newspaper archives trying to do my own little sleuthing to see if I could figure out where in relation it was to I used to. Where I used to live. But I was just finding like old press photos that didn't have any exact addresses. But I was like, damn.

[Elena]

Oh, that's spooky.

[Ash]

That's wild.

[Elena]

I know being in LA must be weird that way because so many things have happened there. You're just like surrounded by.

[Spencer]

Well, they just get publicized more, I feel like.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's true. No, it's true. And you know the locations of a lot of them. Mostly.

[Mikey]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So you can just be like, I'm surrounded.

[Spencer]

Uh huh. 100%.

[Elena]

Also, at the end of this whole title when she speaks the names of all the victims in the court scene, that was chilling. Putting that in there was iconic and it was so perfect, like so perfect ending on that was like. Yeah.

[Ash]

I love the nod to the reality and the true part of this crime.

[Elena]

Making sure that they were heard as well. Because obviously cat was the focus of the narrative, of course. But the fact that they didn't forget about the other victims along the way, that was nice. Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. We Recommend this title. 10 out of 10. If you haven't listened to Bluebeard on Audible, you gotta go listen.

[Elena]

And it's a quick listen.

[Ash]

It's a quick listen. It's a three hour. You will want more.

[Elena]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Ash]

It's three hours long. You could, I mean, if you have a long commute, you could get that done in a day. Babe.

[Elena]

Yeah. You know, there is one scene of them eating. Just be forewarned.

[Ash]

Yes. If you don't listen to that, it's less than three hours.

[Elena]

So there you go. It's quick.

[Ash]

Yeah. Warning, there's also one of them. You know what, you'll get there. So anyway, if you haven't listened to this title, don't forget that our sweetheart friends over at Audible are offering you guys a free trial at audible.com weirdos audible head over there for your free trial. Thank you to Spencer for joining us today. We love hanging with you.

[Spencer]

Thanks for having me.

[Elena]

We love Spencer.

[Ash]

We love you. And if we all want to end this on just maybe a title that we're listening to or recently listened to, that we recommend.

[Elena]

So my recommendation for A title to listen to is sleep tight by J.H. marquardt. I recommend all his titles and all his books, in fact, because I think he's a brilliant horror author. It's a perfect one. It's got, like, a creepy little fictional town in it. He's really good at infusing, like, some supernatural elements, but they don't even feel. They feel like they're just reality in it.

[Ash]

I haven't listened to that yet.

[Elena]

Yeah, and he's got, you know, a serial killer in this one in a small town. He's. It's just. He's a great author. I highly, highly recommend Sleep Tight.

[Ash]

I have two recommendations. I just finished, and actually, so did Elena. Wayward.

[Elena]

Oh, so good.

[Ash]

Listening to that title was so whimsical. There's three female points of view, and they have three different narrators for each one. And all of them just have the most. I say this all the time about people, but I think I just listen to audio titles with narrators who have the most soothing voices. And these three women, I want them to read me bedtime stories every single night. So good. And obviously I have to recommend Elena's Butcher in the Wren and the Butcher Game. Duh.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

I know the author and she writes a meme book, Baby.

[Spencer]

Truly.

[Elena]

There's also the Big Hot Book of Death.

[Ash]

I've heard of that one.

[Elena]

Have you heard of that one? Spencer.

[Ash]

Spencer Madison.

[Spencer]

I have heard of that. Have you?

[Elena]

Because that's also a great one, which is pretty good.

[Ash]

And they got. I love their voices, too, those narrators.

[Elena]

True.

[Spencer]

I think the guy is annoying, but one that I love is. Well, I've been. I'm like, halfway through it right now. But it's the crime of the Century. Richard Speck and the Murders that Shocked a Nation.

[Ash]

That's an interesting 1.

[Spencer]

Dennis El Brio and William J. Martin.

[Elena]

Love that.

[Ash]

Amazing. So you guys have a bunch of titles to catch up on. And again, you have your. Your free trial if you head over to that link that I've said 40 times. So we love you. We're grateful for you.

[Elena]

We love you.

[Ash]

We hope you keep listening, and we.

[Elena]

Hope you keep it weird.

[Ash]

But not so weird that you don't check out these titles today.

[Elena]

Read and listen.

[Spencer]

Bye.

[Ash]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Mikey]

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