Episode 631: Case Revisit: The Lady of the Dunes

Summary

Podcast Summary: Morbid Episode 631: Case Revisit: The Lady of the Dunes

Introduction

In Episode 631 of Morbid, titled "Case Revisit: The Lady of the Dunes," hosts Elena and Ash delve deep into one of Massachusetts' most haunting unsolved cases. Originally aired years ago, this episode marks a significant update on the mysterious Lady of the Dunes case, offering fresh insights and developments that promise to shed light on the decades-old mystery.

Case Overview

The Lady of the Dunes case centers around the discovery of an unidentified female body on July 26, 1974, at Race Point Dunes in Provincetown, Massachusetts. At approximately 6 PM, 12-year-old Leslie Metcalfe was exploring the dunes with her dog when the animal’s frantic barking led her to the grisly scene. Initially mistaking the body for a deer, Leslie soon realized the victim was human—naked, handless, and nearly decapitated.

Elena describes the initial discovery:

“She saw some legs and feet, saw hair tied up into a ponytail and caked with blood” ([16:45]).

The body, estimated to be between 25 and 40 years old with reddish auburn hair, showed no signs of struggle, leading investigators to believe the victim was either asleep or posed at the scene. Despite meticulous searches and multiple autopsies, the identity of the Lady of the Dunes remained elusive for decades.

Investigative Efforts

Provincetown Police Chief James Jimmy Meads spearheaded the investigation with unwavering dedication. Meads, deeply committed to solving the case, famously kept the victim’s skull in his office as a reminder of the unresolved mystery. Under his leadership, the police undertook several key actions:

1. Forensic Analysis: Advanced techniques such as composites and clay models were employed to recreate the victim’s likeness.
2. Dental Records: Given the victim's extensive dental work, including gold crowns worth up to $10,000, her dental records were distributed nationwide but yielded no matches.
3. Exhumations: The body was exhumed three times—in 1980, 2001, and 2013—to apply emerging forensic technologies, including DNA analysis and genealogical research.

Despite these efforts, breakthroughs remained scarce. The involvement of experts like marine mammal specialist Peter Corcoran added depth to the investigation, particularly when exploring theories about the manner of death involving humpback whales.

Theories and Suspects

Throughout the episode, Elena and Ash explore various theories and potential suspects linked to the Lady of the Dunes case:

1. Tony "Chop Chop" Costa: A local drug informant turned serial killer, Costa was a natural suspect due to his known violent history and proximity to Provincetown. However, his suicide in 1974 eliminated him as a suspect.

   “He was part of the investigation... It's like people should never be able to get away with this stuff” ([13:40]-[14:02]).

2. Whitey Bulger: Infamous mob boss Whitey Bulger has emerged as a compelling suspect. Known for his brutal crimes and connections in Massachusetts, Bulger’s potential involvement is supported by his association with a local bar near the crime scene and witness reports placing him with a woman matching the victim’s description.

   “Sandra Lee... believes that the lady of the Dunes may have been strangled by Whitey Bulger” ([58:23]-[59:25]).

3. Hayden Clark: A convicted serial killer who confessed to the Lady of the Dunes murder while incarcerated. However, due to his diagnosed paranoid schizophrenia, authorities remain skeptical of his claims, treating them as unreliable.

   “He confessed from prison... But police don't believe him because... he was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic” ([62:23]-[63:42]).

4. Pop Culture Theories: Joe Hill, son of renowned author Stephen King, proposed a supernatural theory connecting the case to the classic film Jaws. He speculated that the Lady of the Dunes might appear as an extra in the movie, suggesting a haunting legacy.

   “Joe Hill... believes that the Lady of the Dunes can be seen alive as an extra in Jaws” ([64:35]-[65:58]).

Recent Developments

In light of technological advancements, investigators are renewing their efforts to identify the Lady of the Dunes. The use of DNA analysis and genealogical databases mirrors successes seen in other cold cases, offering hope for a resolution. Despite these efforts, as of the episode's release in December 2024, the case remains unsolved.

Additionally, cultural interest in the case persists, with American Horror Story Season 10 hinting at a subplot inspired by the Lady of the Dunes mystery. This renewed attention underscores the enduring fascination and frustration surrounding the case.

Community and Host Involvement

Elena and Ash express a passionate commitment to solving the case, humorously proposing the formation of a "true crime squad" comprising themselves and notable personalities like Bailey Sarian and Sarah Turney. Their determination reflects the broader community’s desire for closure and justice.

“We're gonna solve it. I think we're gonna solve it.” ([68:49]-[69:07]).

Conclusion

Episode 631 of Morbid offers a comprehensive and engaging revisit of the Lady of the Dunes case, blending thorough research with the hosts’ signature blend of suspense and camaraderie. While the mystery remains unresolved, the episode highlights ongoing investigations and the persistent hope that one day the truth will emerge. Listeners are left with a deepened understanding of the case and a sense of ongoing intrigue, encouraged to contribute any new information that might finally unravel this Massachusetts enigma.

Notable Quotes

• Elena on Case Frustration: “It's wild to me. It's always wild to me when we can't find who did something...” ([13:27]-[13:40])
• Ash on Detective Dedication: “He literally said he wouldn't retire until he found out who she was.” ([25:42]-[25:59])
• Elena on Forensic Challenges: “Her hands were definitely taken off to take away fingerprints.” ([33:03]-[33:24])
• Ash on Whitey Bulger: “Whitey was a vibe and a half.” ([57:17]-[58:28])
• Elena on Modern Forensics: “They're using new techniques with DNA analysis and genealogical sites to try to do it.” ([66:08]-[67:35])

Final Thoughts

As Morbid continues to explore and revisit cold cases, episodes like "Case Revisit: The Lady of the Dunes" underscore the podcast’s commitment to shedding light on forgotten mysteries. The blend of detailed investigation, engaging dialogue, and listener involvement makes this episode a standout exploration of a case that continues to captivate and confound.

Transcript

[Elena]

Hey weirdos, Alayna here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

[Ash]

You're listening to a Morbid network podcast. We are supported by Amazon Luna. Luna is Amazon's cloud gaming service that lets you play video games like you stream shows and movies straight from the cloud, no console required. With Amazon Luna and a high speed Internet connection, you can play games on almost any screen, play on fire tv, tablets, smartphones, even in a browser window. Amazon Luna has hundreds of games from the latest releases to beloved classics. We're talking Star Wars Outlaws, Batman, Arkham Knight, Sonic Mania, and so much more. It's been really cute. The kids have been absolutely loving playing these games with Amazon Luna and it's just so fun to see. Prime members can play select games free, including Fortnite and a rotating monthly selection of games from across the Luna library. Go to luna.Amazon.com to get gaming.

[Elena]

Hey.

[Ash]

Everyone, let's talk about protein for a second. There's this rumor that getting plant based protein is tough, but listen, there are some amazing options out there even if you're not vegan. Adding more plant based protein to your diet is a fantastic way to nourish your body and support the planet. My go to for tasty protein and super food packed shake is Cachava. Every serving of Cachava offers 25 grams of 100% plant based protein. But that's not all this all in one shake has fiber, quality fats, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants and so much more. I love that I can tick so many boxes with just one delicious shake. If you know me, you know that vanilla and chai are my favorite flavors and I like to combine them. But they also have chocolate, they've got matcha and they've got coconut acai. I'm a big fan of the coconut at Acai as well. After drinking cachava first thing in the morning because that's when I always drink it, I feel satiated for hours. I feel focused, calm and ready to take on my day. Something that I really love to do if I even want like a little bit more protein is just add a scoop of peanut butter to the vanilla and chai concoction that I make. And that oh is just scrum diddly umptious. Honey Kachava is offering our listeners 10% off on their subscription for a limited time. Just go to kachava.commorbid spelled K A C-H-A-V A and get 10% off your first order. That's K-A-C-H-A-V-A.commorbid. hello, brethren. Happy after the holidays.

[Elena]

It's after the holidays now.

[Ash]

Not now, technically, but where you are in the future. In the future. It's after the holidays and we have a little business. Before we tell you why we're re releasing this specific episode. There is a reason for the season. Turn, turn, turn.

[Elena]

And Ash is really good at business.

[Ash]

Business is my middle name. Also admin.

[Elena]

She stands on it.

[Ash]

Nicole is also my real middle name, in case you're wondering. Don't steal it. So anyway, I don't know, don't use it for bad.

[Elena]

Just don't steal it, okay?

[Ash]

Everybody's like, let me maintain my middle name. Let me. Anyway, back to the business. Next Listener Tell episode is going to be available on all platforms with video on YouTube on January. Whoa. So I think we're doing two installments of listener tales for January because of, you know, the holiday. You know, the first one that we're releasing in January on the second with video on YouTube is funny. The costumes, it's funny.

[Elena]

All the other ones, dead serious.

[Ash]

But this one, funny. Funnier than the last one, I might add. Maybe.

[Elena]

Whoa. I don't know.

[Ash]

We haven't even done it yet.

[Elena]

That's a pretty tall order.

[Ash]

Well, whatever. But anyway, Elena, back to you. Tell them why we're re releasing this episode, the lady of the Dunes.

[Elena]

So this was a crazy, like, mysterious case. There wasn't an answer for it.

[Ash]

Unsolved.

[Elena]

It was one of those. You might say it was unsolved. But you can't say that anymore.

[Ash]

Don't say that.

[Elena]

Can't say that anymore because there's an update to the case. We know who did it now. We know who did it. We know who the lady of the dunes is. And I'm not gonna spoil anything for you, but. Because we did a whole episode to update you guys on it. But if you need a refresher, here it is. Listen to the lady of the dunes say, oh, my goodness, will we ever know what happened there? And then you can say, we do. Yes, we do. And then go to the next episode and bada boop, bada boop.

[Ash]

Which will be next Monday.

[Elena]

There you go. There's the update. So this is pretty fun. It's a little gift to You. It was a gift from the universe to the whole world to know who this woman was and to know what happened to her. So we're passing it forward.

[Ash]

Enjoy, please.

[Elena]

Enjoy.

[Ash]

Bye.

[Elena]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena.

[Ash]

I'm Ash.

[Elena]

And this is morbid. And it's local to Massachusetts.

[Ash]

The way you said. And it's local to Massachusetts.

[Elena]

Hello. I get excited about these.

[Ash]

You should.

[Elena]

I do. I like covering ones from Massachusetts. It's kind of my thing.

[Ash]

It's kind of your thing. Well, do we have any business before we stay in Massachusetts?

[Elena]

Before we stay in Massachusetts? So one weird thing happened that kind of goes along with this episode because it happened in Massachusetts.

[Ash]

It happened in Provincetown, didn't it?

[Elena]

It did. It's happened in. Actually, it happened in Cape Cod. Yeah, but, like, so right around there. Yeah. But, yeah, this guy, Michael Packard, who is, like, a veteran lobster diver, which Lobster fisherman.

[Ash]

Wild.

[Elena]

No joke.

[Ash]

We have a cousin that's a lobster fisherman.

[Elena]

We do. Is a lobsterman.

[Ash]

Shout out to Annie.

[Elena]

To Annie. Yeah. It's. It's a badass job. It is a very dangerous job. And this guy, Michael Packard, got swallowed by a humpback whale and then spit out.

[Ash]

I mean, we're. We're happy for the latter part of that story.

[Elena]

Very happy for the ending.

[Ash]

Imagine having that life experience.

[Elena]

Well, and I guess, like, his crewmate was on the boat, and this guy was going down to check the traps, and he said he just watches, like, the bubbles to make sure that he's, like, still alive, essentially.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And he said all of a sudden he saw this, like, crazy explosion of bubbles, and he's like, oh, my God. He. He died. And I can't do anything about it.

[Ash]

Like, literally help us.

[Elena]

And the guy, I guess, thought it was a shark that had got him. So he was like, oh, I'm dead. Like, he was like, this is it. He said, I'm done. I'm dead. All I could think about was my boys. They're 12 and 15 years old, which, like, kills me. And he was breathing through, like, a breathing regulator at the time inside of a humpback whale.

[Ash]

He said, I made that up.

[Elena]

He said, no, it was a humpback.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Yeah, it was a humpback whale.

[Ash]

It's the morning.

[Elena]

And apparently he was, like, struggling because he was breathing through that apparatus. Right. So he was struggling, and the whale was like, wow, I didn't mean to eat you. Like, you're not what I eat. Right. And so I think the whale, like, felt bad that he had eaten him. And so he brought him to the surface to spit him out.

[Ash]

We love a whale.

[Elena]

We love a whale. Which I guess he said within, like, 30. 30 seconds, he said. But he said for a brief moment, he thinks he was swallowed.

[Ash]

Well, he. Yeah, he must have been, like, not.

[Elena]

Just hanging out in his mouth.

[Ash]

What the.

[Elena]

Isn't that up?

[Ash]

Can you imagine going home and, like, your wife is like, hey, how was your day at work? And you're like, oh, actually, I got swallowed by a humpb whale. How was your day, sweetie?

[Elena]

I got swallowed by. They initially thought he. He had broken both of his legs.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And they were like, he at least broke one. He apparently didn't break any bones when he went to the hospital. Yeah, he went to the hospital. He just had soft tissue damage.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah. What the.

[Elena]

And I guess an expert said that humpback whales are, like, gulp. Feeders. Like, they just slurp and gulp. They just get as much as they can down.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So this was definitely, like, an accident. He just happened to be there, and I think he was just gulping up food and literally, like, him in.

[Ash]

I think that happens in Finding Nemo, like, actually.

[Elena]

Yeah. And then there's. I guess there's a marine mammal expert, Peter Corcoran, and he's from the New England Aquarium, which our cousin worked at.

[Ash]

Hey, I was just there the other day.

[Elena]

Yeah, she's amazing. And he works there. And he was saying that the. Basically him. The. The whale bringing him to the surface to spit him. He said it's perfectly believable that the whale was trying to help him.

[Ash]

Shut up.

[Elena]

I love this whale because there's evidence that say that humpbacks can be altruistic towards humans. Shut the fuck up.

[Ash]

Yeah. It's like how elephants think we're cute. Yes. Yeah.

[Elena]

It's the same kind of thing.

[Ash]

Animals, I do, too. Not that I want to get swallowed by a humpback whale, but, like, wow.

[Elena]

But I think it was just, like, it was a whoops moment for that whale. That was embarrassing. And he decided that he was gonna try to make good at the end.

[Ash]

It was embarrassing.

[Elena]

He was probably really shame.

[Ash]

Imagine having that under your belt for two truths and a l. Lie.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I was born here.

[Elena]

I like my color blue.

[Ash]

And I was swallowed by a humpback whale. And they're like, okay, that's the line. You're like, I actually love the color red. I hate blue. Like.

[Elena]

Like, that's an amazing story.

[Ash]

I thought I had a good one. Mine is just that I was born in Hawaii.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

People are always like, you do. That's the lie.

[Elena]

And you're like, no, but I was.

[Ash]

Not swallowed by a humpback.

[Elena]

No, you were not.

[Ash]

Maybe I'll still use it in Two Truths and a Lie, though.

[Elena]

I think it's a good one. And you know what, Michael Packard, I'm really glad that you're okay.

[Ash]

Congrats.

[Elena]

Yeah, congrats. And make sure you tell your boys, because they're gonna love that story.

[Ash]

Also, are you gonna go back to Lobster?

[Elena]

I'm sure he will.

[Ash]

He probably will. Those people are always just badass.

[Elena]

Yeah. They're just. They don't care. Like, that's just. They know the ocean. They know the dangers of the ocean. And they're just like, yeah, yeah, I'm okay. Like, I think at one point he was like, at least it wasn't a shark. Which you're like, yeah, but it was still a whale that swallowed you. Yeah.

[Ash]

You were in the bell of a whale.

[Elena]

Yeah. That's scary.

[Ash]

That's crazy. Also, it took everything in me, and now I just, like, can't get past it. When you said, like, whales are gulp. Feeders, I was gonna say same.

[Elena]

Yeah, I figured.

[Ash]

And I couldn't let that joke go.

[Elena]

I figured you had to bring it right back.

[Ash]

It hits different after the fact, but it still hits.

[Elena]

It does. I think a lot of people can relate.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But. Yeah. So that brings us nicely into the episode today, which is. Which is the crazy, mysterious and gruesome case of the lady of the Dunes.

[Ash]

And unsolved.

[Elena]

Very unsol. Solved. And now I want to solve it. Whenever I get into one of these cases really hard, I'm like, well, you.

[Ash]

Know, things do happen after we cover cases.

[Elena]

They do.

[Ash]

It just freaks me out.

[Elena]

I feel like this is. It reminds. This reminds me of, like, the Karina Homer case. The way I wanna. I wanna solve it. Like, I really wanna solve that case, and I really want to solve this case. And they're both Massachusetts.

[Ash]

I solved the Karina Homer case.

[Elena]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ash]

I know who did it. I know what you did last summer.

[Elena]

But I want it, like, solved. Yeah. Like, I want it all.

[Ash]

You. You want a real detective?

[Elena]

I need to know more information. We need to solve this citizen detective style.

[Ash]

Let's do it.

[Elena]

We're gonna solve this.

[Ash]

Did you hear us?

[Elena]

And we'll go.

[Ash]

We should just get, like, a true crime squad together.

[Elena]

Let's do it.

[Ash]

That's Sarah, Attorney. Like, she's clearly doing the damn thing.

[Elena]

Sarah Turney, you're on the squad.

[Ash]

We have to get Bailey's area in because we're newly best friends and she.

[Elena]

Can make us look good, too.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

So while we' this.

[Ash]

Yeah, I think that's. Honestly, that's the dream team.

[Elena]

It really is. I'm sure we'll think of more later. We'll add to the squad because it's early and I mean, the entire morbid.

[Ash]

Network has to come.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

Everybody.

[Elena]

Everybody. All right, so, guys, let's pack your bags, come to Massachusetts. We're doing this. See you soon. We're going to solve the lady of the dunes case. But let me tell you about it first so that you can. You guys can decide afterwards if you want to join the squad.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So first of all, if you happen to have any information about this case, because it is a pretty well known case, especially around here, you can direct any tips, any information, anything that your grandparents may have slipped out at some point at dinner time, at supper.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

At the supper table. If they sat there and they told you that one time they were in P town and it was July, it was hot, and I stumbled upon this dead body. Here's where you can tell the Provincetown Police Department, 508-48-7, 1212 or 508-487-1213. Or if you have any information about the unidentified body that we are going to talk about, call the office of the chief medical examiner at 617-267-6-767A. So make sure you call those if you have any information. So I'm going to start this off with a quick little quote that's going to, like, sum it up for you. What we're going to talk about.

[Ash]

Alrighty.

[Elena]

For the last 47 years, investigators have been struggling to identify the lady of the Dunes, a handless corpse that was found nearly decapitated on a Massachusetts beach. So that's going to tell you everything you need to know. But it.

[Ash]

Whoop, there it is now.

[Elena]

It is wild to me. It's always wild to me when we can't find who did something, even if we have the identity of the victim, because it's like people should never be able to get away with this stuff, especially now.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

But we don't even know who she is. That's the thing that is nuts to me, is that we don't know who this woman is. I know no one's been able to identify her.

[Ash]

It's so scary.

[Elena]

And when I start telling you who she was, where, how she was found, you're gonna see that it's strange because as they say multiple times she seems well taken care of.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

You know, like she doesn't, she didn't come across as somebody who was like, you know, going from place to place or down on her luck or not. Maybe wasn't connected to people. She seemed like she interacted with people quite often. Okay. So what happened was a bit after 6pm on Friday, July 26, 1974, a 12 year old girl named Leslie Metcalfe was at Race Point Dunes in P town. She was following a barking dog. It was a beagle. And she had been with friends at the beach. Leslie's sister Alyssa had said in an interview later that she was at the stables that day. But her sister and some friends had gone to the beach to play. They had been hanging around and at a dune shack that, that family friends were renting. And a dune shack is exactly what it sounds like. But they were originally built like a century ago or century. A century earlier than like 1974.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So not now, but they were originally built as cabins for like these crews of people who would keep watch for ships so they wouldn't run aground in bad water in bad weather. And just. They're exactly what they sound like. Just little shacks all across the dunes.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Now after a while they turned them into like beach rentals and places where like local artists or like, you know, creators of any kind could set up and sell their wares out of.

[Ash]

They're all over the place in B town.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

And on the Cape in general.

[Elena]

Exactly. Now, her parents were there as well, and there were two dogs in the shack. When they were all ready to head home, they were just going to walk across the beach and the dunes and go back home. They started walking and one of the dogs, the beagle, followed them, which was fine. He was just walking down the beach with them. But then he kind of veered off the path and started barking wildly, like.

[Ash]

Clearly trying to tell them something.

[Elena]

He was very clearly indicating something he had found.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

That was for sure. So Leslie was like, What? Because she's 12 and I want to know what that dog's doing. I mean, I'm 35 and I'd be like, I want to, I want to find out what that dog is barking at. And she followed him as I would. And when she ran off the beaten track after the dog, she quickly noticed a motionless form laying in the dunes.

[Ash]

Oh my goodness.

[Elena]

And she. It was surrounded by tall grass. Now, she said she thought the body initially was a deer at first, not.

[Ash]

A Mannequin this time.

[Elena]

Not a mannequin. She thought it was a deer. And she said, you know, she was upset enough about possibly running into a dead or hurt deer. Yeah, that's still shitty.

[Ash]

Of course.

[Elena]

But then she saw the form completely. She made out some legs and feet. And she saw hair tied up into a ponytail and caked with blood.

[Ash]

Oh, my goodness.

[Elena]

And she realized that she was looking at a human body.

[Ash]

This poor little 12 year old.

[Elena]

12 year old. Finding that she could also smell the scent of decomposition nearby. Like, you know, she had been there for a while in the summer sun. So she was bacon now. What had happened, though, was it was really hot. It's hot summers here and on p. Town. And it's right next to the. It's on the beach right next to the water. Massachusetts water is not like crystal clear Caribbean water.

[Ash]

Love that dirty water.

[Elena]

So that smell of, like, the. The ocean and all that is. Can be gnarly. But it's something you just expect here.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That you're gonna have.

[Ash]

That beach smells get hit in the face with, like, red tides.

[Elena]

Exactly. So it's like. So this smell of this decomposing woman in the sun for what they think could have been, you know, up to more than a week.

[Ash]

Wow. I didn't know it was that long.

[Elena]

Yeah, they think it was just kind of mixing with the. Which tells you something about what the ocean smells like here.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That people were just like, man.

[Ash]

Well, there's probably, like mad bodies in our oceans too.

[Elena]

So. Yeah, there definitely are. So she. Yeah, so she could definitely smell it the closer she got. And their parents said that all they heard was her saying, mom, dad. Like, she didn't scream. She just said, mom. So her parents went to see what was wrong. And they discovered the body.

[Ash]

Yikes.

[Elena]

So this body was only found about a mile away from the Provincetown police station. Oh, wow. Which is interesting. Now, they immediately ran to the dune shack that they had been at, and they contacted the rangers. Leslie's recollection was that the clothing on scene was very neatly folded and placed under this woman's head. She could see some clothing. And she said she immediately saw that this woman was naked. That her hands. She didn't see initially that they were missing. We'll get into that. But she said her hands were buried in the sand. Gotcha. Luckily, Leslie didn't see that the head was almost decapitated. She said she seemed like. She almost looked like she was asleep and sunbathing in the nude.

[Ash]

Which did it seem like she was face down.

[Elena]

She was face down. No, she was all. All the way face down. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. We all know the old saying about teaching a man to fish. And as parents, we want our kids to learn the things that will set them up for success. So this holiday season, give kids money skills that last well beyond 2024 with green light. Greenlight is a debit card and money app made for families where kids learn how to save, invest and spend wisely with parental controls built in. Sign up [e-mail] wondery greenlight.com wondery Audible's.

[C]

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[Elena]

Um, apparently the family friends who had rented the Dune shack that summer said they never rented that shack again. They never returned to the dunes again because they were so disturbed. I mean, yeah, I would be too. And Leslie's sister Alyssa said their family had been visiting P town for years at this point and it was a very safe area. Yeah, especially then it was like very safe. I mean kids could walk around without their parents. They could run around on beaches and in the dunes to play. No one thought anything of it.

[Ash]

It's that whole thing of like quiet, quaint little town.

[Elena]

It is nothing ever quiet New England town, but it is like every. And it's, it's, it is. This is weird. So Alyssa, the sister, also said that no one really interviewed them about their experience. The family and likely just went off of the Rangers story for details. Usually papers and stories say that Leslie was walking her dog and just came across the body, but that's not accurate and I did find many stories that started off with a 12 year old girl walking her dog.

[Ash]

And that's wrong.

[Elena]

I know it's not like totally pertinent to the info like that she was chasing a dog that wasn't hers.

[Ash]

Yeah. Still you should get the information.

[Elena]

But it makes it seem like this 12 year old girl was just alone walking her dog and stumbled across it. And that's just not what happened.

[Ash]

Well, like to not mention that the parents also saw something.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

Because I guess I think the reason that they probably do that is like, oh, it's a 12 year old. So like that's why we didn't really interview her.

[Elena]

Exactly. We just let it go. And it's like so park ranger James Hankins was the first officer arriving on scene. And he said she was laying face down naked on a green beach blanket. Blanket. He could see red hair and that she had been severely beaten over the head. She was also seemingly missing her hands. He said they were not buried. He and other media outlets said the hands were shoved into the sands with pine needle piles around them like her arms, like where her hands should be. And it made it look like she was doing push ups.

[Ash]

Weird.

[Elena]

Yeah. And he was quoted as saying it was ghastly. It was as if she had been laying there alone or on a blanket with someone and someone came up and clubbed her. There was no signs of a struggle. Even the sand hadn't been disturbed. Wow.

[Ash]

That's so weird.

[Elena]

And that's something that a lot of people talk about is there was zero sign of struggle. People say it did not look like she was fought here. It didn't look like. It looked like she was there and was caught off guard.

[Ash]

Well, and therefore like for there to not be like even like maybe blood splatter on the sand.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That's weird.

[Elena]

It's wild. It's really. Well, and I think there was like definitely like blood spatter.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And stuff. But you could tell she didn't fight back. Right. So she was definitely caught off guard. Caught off guard. Which it's like was she asleep? That's what the. That's honestly what a lot of people think is that she was asleep.

[Ash]

Well, and I feel like that's kind of an area too where you would go to sleep because like you don't have to worry about the water like the tide changing, anything like that. You're in the tall grass.

[Elena]

Exactly. She was hidden enough that she could have been sunbathing in the nude.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

And like hiding in the nude. And just kind of fell asleep.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And it's like. But what.

[Ash]

Who. What happened?

[Elena]

Were you with someone?

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So like I said, she. There was some clothing that were found. There was a pair of Wrangler jeans that were folded up like a pillow under her head, which to me says she went to sleep with those under her head for, like, a pillow. And there was also a blue bandana under her head, and she was laying halfway on a light green blanket, like a beach blanket. The Warren Tobias, who was the retired acting police chief in Provincetown, said she was definitely posed there. She was lying out on a beach towel as if she was sunbathing.

[Ash]

So he doesn't think that she was asleep.

[Elena]

She was either posed there or that's, like, where she. What she was doing when it happened.

[Ash]

Gotcha.

[Elena]

He. So James. James Hankins, the Ranger, called Provincetown police chief at the time, James Jimmy Meads, at home, because they were friends. And actually, I guess Meads had given Hankins, like, some extra responsibilities. Like, he could kind of, like, do more than a normal ranger could because he was, like, trustworthy. Okay. So he called him at home and he was like, you gotta get down here now. Provincetown Police Chief James Jimmy Meads felt like it was his duty to solve this case.

[Ash]

So he was so trustworthy.

[Elena]

He. Well, no, this was the police chief.

[Ash]

Oh, well, that's good.

[Elena]

He's transparent, too. He felt very connected to this case, and he took every opportunity to push it forward and, like, really push down doors to get things done for this case. Like, he had a forensics team come together at one point to create composites and clay models of her likeness. He literally said he wouldn't retire until he found out who she was. And for years, he actually had her skull in his office as a reminder to him himself that she was unnamed and can't be forgotten. Wow.

[Ash]

That is dedication.

[Elena]

He also got her dental records and all information published anywhere he could, and constantly brought up her case in any interview he did, anywhere he could. He was really trying to keep her case in the forefront and make sure she was not forgotten.

[Ash]

It's so interesting that they did get her dental records, but, like.

[Elena]

Or, like, oh, yeah, and we'll get into it. Don't worry. Because she has very specific dental records, too, which makes it even weirder.

[Ash]

Weird.

[Elena]

I love this. So he said, with most murders, you try to figure out who the murderer was. I've spent years trying to figure out who the victim was. As the years dwindle on, more dentists will retire or die. More dental records Will be lost, and the opportunity for identification will diminish. Maybe someone on death row will decide to cleanse his soul before he dies and confess to the murder. It appears that someday soon I'll retire and the case won't be solved. But I'm sure whoever follows me in this job, if they get a lead, they'll call me and I'll be ready. And each chief after him have all made it a priority to bring this case back up and try and solve it. Every single case. I'm glad every chief after him has been like, priority number one is solving this case. Yeah. So when mead showed up after Hankins called him, he showed up with two other detectives that evening. And he saw the scene and he said immediately his head went to Tony chop chop Costa.

[Ash]

Hey, we know all about Tony.

[Elena]

We do. If you remember, we did an episode about Tony chop chop Costa, another killer in provincetown. And if you. I don't know if anybody caught that. Jimmy meads is kind of a familiar name.

[Ash]

I thought it was, but then I didn't know if I like, knew somebody like, personally with that name.

[Elena]

Yep. See, Meads was in our. Our Costa episode. I thought so. Yeah. He had actually known Costa since he was young when he moved to p. And he. Meads had been the one to recruit Costa as a drug informant before he turned into a serial killer because of his help in the drug informant cases. Meads wrote him a letter to get him early parole when he was in jail for non payment of child support. And he. Because he basically wrote the letter to get him out so he could use him as a police drug informant. But so he got him out five months early in November 1968, and two months after he was let out, he murdered Pat Walsh and Marianne Wysocki.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So Meads was part of the investigation. She. He actually spoke to Patricia Morton, who was the rooming house owner, who told him that Marianne Wysocki and Pat Walsh had spent two nights at her rooming house and that a man named Tony Costa had also been staying there at the same time. She had told him that they had interacted and that she had not seen the girls in a few days. And as we know, Tony had killed them both. Right, so that's a bummer.

[Ash]

So that's why their head immediately went to Tony.

[Elena]

Exactly. So. And it's very much like the dismemberment and stuff is very. Tony Costa. Tony chop chop Costa.

[Ash]

But not like him. Sorry. Probably jumping ahead of you.

[Elena]

Oh, no. Well, the big main thing was Immediately, he thought of Tony. Chop chop. But then he realized it couldn't be him because he had killed himself May 12th in 1974.

[Ash]

All right, well, that's out.

[Elena]

So couldn't be him.

[Ash]

And I was gonna say, he didn't leave people out in the open. He wouldn't bury them in, like, the garden thing that he had.

[Elena]

Yeah, he liked to do his little garden. His Tony garden.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

They searched the surrounding areas around the scene for days, and they found literally nothing. Not a shred of evidence. That's crazy. They even used bloodhounds. Nothing hit. Couldn't find anything.

[Ash]

I mean, it must be hard on the beach, too, because, like, wind blows and the sand moves, you know, Like, I can't imagine.

[Elena]

Absolutely. And it buries things, and it's like. Like. And then there's water involved. It's just all this.

[Ash]

It's, like, the worst thing ever.

[Elena]

So the autopsy was done Saturday, July 27, 1974. What it. What it came out was, she was about 5, 6, 135 pounds and estimated to be between 25 and 40 years old. Her build was described as an athletic build. She had long hair that was reddish or described as auburn in a lot of places. It was in a ponytail. They couldn't actually determine what color her eyes are because of decomposition. Oh, wow. So what happens is when you die, you stop blinking, and so you don't produce any kind of moisture in your eyes. And there's no more blood circulation to help with all that. So there's no oxygen coming into your eyes once you're dead because the cornea needs to be moist for oxygen to absorb into it. And lack of oxygen affects the opacity of your. Of your cornea. Oh, and the lens. So it doesn't change the color of the eye technically, but if you're looking at it, it will appear bluish or white or, like, even gray.

[Ash]

Because it's like.

[Elena]

Because it'll be cloudy.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

It'll have that cloudy haze over it. Yeah.

[Ash]

That's so weird. I never knew that before.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's, like, a weird thing. So sometimes it can be. Especially after, if they've. They've been out for a while, that's really gonna. They're gonna have cloudy eyes.

[Ash]

Frustrating, too, when you're dealing with, like, an unidentified body.

[Elena]

Yeah, exactly. So she also had pink toenail polish on.

[Ash]

Oh, girl.

[Elena]

I know. That always gets me.

[Ash]

It does. Ever since the willy picked an episode. Because you had said one of the girls was found with red toenail polish. I paint my toes Red all the time. And I always think of it now.

[Elena]

Because you always think. Because I think that too. Doing autopsies. I say it a lot that like little things always make me think, like, oh, you had no idea because that was the last time you were gonna paint your nails.

[Ash]

You know, it's like such a personal thing that like, like you just do, like you don't paint your nails thinking of dying.

[Elena]

It's like a self care thing. So it's like they just. They either you or someone painted your toenails just. And you had no idea that that was the last time you would do that. You know, it always gets me now, now we're gonna get into her teeth. Okay.

[Ash]

Because I'm interested.

[Elena]

She had lots of teeth missing. But they are fairly sure that this was from the murder or circumstances. But not circumstances before the murder. They think that this was. Is on purpose that her teeth are missing. She had a lot of gold crowns in her teeth. Huh. Estimated between $5,000 and $10,000 worth of dental work in her. Interesting. They actually sent out her dental records to dentists all over Massachusetts and the country. Also the FBI and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

[Ash]

Wow. And they didn't get anything?

[Elena]

Nothing.

[Ash]

What that is is nuts to me.

[Elena]

Nothing.

[Ash]

I'm like, what?

[Elena]

And they think that the missing teeth were pulled out forcibly.

[Ash]

Right?

[Elena]

That they pulled them out intentionally.

[Ash]

I remember hearing that.

[Elena]

And how are there.

[Ash]

I don't know if you know this. Are there certain teeth that are better for identification?

[Elena]

I don't think so. I think it's more dental work just in general. Unless. All I can think about is if she had some kind of like maybe she had one tooth that severely overlapped another one.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

Like that would be like very identifiable. Like if she had some really, really identifiable specific to her thing that they wanted to remove for that.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But like to just the teeth themselves, there's. I think that it's just really the dental work that you're looking for.

[Ash]

Well, and then does that say to you that this is probably somebody who's like killed before? Because they know that and they're like that, that like callous to freaking pull a tooth.

[Elena]

Yes. Because when we get into the hands, those hands were definitely taken off to take away fingerprints.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So this is somebody who knows how to take away identification and did a great job. Because we can't identify her so clearly.

[Ash]

Has probably done this before.

[Elena]

I feel like that. I feel like that.

[Ash]

I think so.

[Elena]

That's a very. This is a one off experienced level of moida. And we're gonna get. At the end of this episode, we'll talk about the theories who. Who has been brought up over the years and. And maybe talk about who we think could be it. She was also sexually assaulted with a wooden block, but they think it was done post mortem, which is terrible regardless. But her hands were cut off, like I said, one at the forearm and one at the wrist. So no fingerprints to identify her. Obviously where her hands would have been, whoever placed her there had piled on pine needles, like, intentionally. The left side of her head had been crushed in like an eggshell, they said. The medical examiner said it looked like the blow had happened from someone lying next to her or when she was asleep. There wasn't any signs of struggle. She was on one side of the blanket. So it seemed likely that she may have known her killer or was at least slightly comfortable with them and was asleep and didn't see it coming.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So it's either she was asleep, didn't see it coming, and didn't know the person, or she was on that blanket with someone and they. And she fell asleep or was just lying there and they took her out. She was almost decapitated. They thought this was due to a combination of multiple strangle strangulation attempts. And also that blow to the head. It was done with a tool which is called a military entrenchment tool tool. And that was actually the cause of death, was the blow to the head.

[Ash]

Yeah, I would think so.

[Elena]

The military entrenchment tool is a collapsible spade kind of thing used by military and, like, survivalists. It's really sharp and usually made of, like, steel and. Okay. So I think it was James Hankins. Yeah. That said, quote, the only instrument that could have been used to hack off her hands was an instrument carried by almost all dune bugs. Buggies.

[Ash]

Interesting.

[Elena]

It was common in all surplus stores. It was a handy tool for a camper. It was a folding shovel called an entrenching tool. It was standard issue item for anyone in the infantry. Soldiers in World War II and Korea carried them. It was very sturdy, made out of heavy metal, semi pointed spade. Like, the blade could be folded down on the handle, or it could be raised to a perpendicular like a hoe. Or you could make it into a shovel with a straight handle around 18 inches long. In hand to hand combat, you could use it to fight your enemy. Wow.

[Ash]

So this is a versatile tool.

[Elena]

It is. And it sounds like every dune buggy had one. Yeah. Which is interesting. And that it's A good tool for campers. People who camp out on the dunes. People who. So this is opening up like many doors, a lot of do.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

Details. There was also a ton of insect activity on the body that they noticed. And we'll also mention that again after we talk about the theories.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Now, the stomach contents indicated that she had recently eaten a meal of burger and fries.

[Ash]

Got it, girl.

[Elena]

Which indicated to a lot of people that she had been in town that day. Yeah, maybe at one of the burger and fry joints. Right. She had estimated to have been dead for at least ten days, but possibly as long as three weeks. Whoa, dude. They believe she was. They were thinking that she was possibly killed somewhere else. If it's not the theory of her being asleep. Sleep. Okay, just because of the lack of stuff at the crime scene. Right. There was blood, but like, I think it wasn't as bloody as you would think it would be. Right. At that scene.

[Ash]

And then when you get into the insect activity, does that kind of like skew it even more?

[Elena]

It's, it's. Honestly, it doesn't. But it's like I think they just can't figure it out. Yeah, they can't figure this out. It's like she looks like she could have been asleep on that towel. On that towel. Or it could have been all set up to look like she was sleeping on that towel.

[Ash]

Because it almost does seem like too perfect, like pose. Right, Right.

[Elena]

Yeah, because it's but it's like she's on. The other thing is, she's on her. She's face down.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So it's like you would sunbathe that way. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you would do that. But then it's like, would somebody place you face down or would they place you face up?

[Ash]

Maybe they would place you face down to make it look like you had been sunbathing.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So they probably just don't want to.

[Ash]

Rule out anything because it.

[Elena]

Because they have anything. Yeah. They have no evidence to say exactly what is going on here.

[Ash]

I can't imagine working on this case even just, like, listening to it is frustrating.

[Elena]

Frustrating. So no missing persons matched that description? None. They searched all local motels and hotels, asked if someone had seen someone matching that description or if someone had not returned to their room matching that description. Nothing.

[Ash]

It's like, how is she not connected to anybody?

[Elena]

That's the thing. And again, no fingerprints, so we can't even try that.

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

Now, a detective named Detective Flynn said, quote, it's certainly unusual that no one misses her. She must have had a husband, boyfriend, parents, someone. She had been pretty well taken care of. We know that. So she was, like, in, like, in a state where obviously she had almost $10,000 worth of dental work in her house.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

It's. She was not just, like, floating around homeless.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So you try.

[Ash]

Your mind just goes to all these different things.

[Elena]

I.

[Ash]

Like, one of the first things I thought was, like, was she, like, a runaway, like, and had been like. Had run away, like, a long time ago and just had her own and not dating anybody?

[Elena]

Like, maybe. You know, it's. I. It's. There's so many ways you could go with it.

[Ash]

Yeah. And it's one. Especially in the 70s, it's like people were, like, going off on their own, doing things on their own all the time.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. And Provincetown was, like, a perfect place to go. Just. I mean, look at Tony Chop Chop. That was like his. His whole life was just floating around Provincetown.

[Ash]

So it's like, maybe not like. But she's not a drifter because she's well taken care of, so.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

It's weird. And she must have been staying somewhere. Like, her hair is nice. It's in a ponytail.

[Elena]

You know, like, it seems that. Yeah. They don't describe it as, like, unkempt or anything.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So it's. It's very strange. There were two pairs of footprints seen in the sand around the scene. They appeared to be Heading towards the body. But they never came right up to it.

[Ash]

It.

[Elena]

Hm. So that's interesting. There was also a set of tire tracks present about 50 yards from the crime scene. But again, it could have been weeks.

[Ash]

So that could have just been like a dune buggy.

[Elena]

Yeah. So over 30 different police officers searched the entire cape and they had zero leads. Zero.

[Ash]

I could not imagine.

[Elena]

Now, a few years later, they were getting a little desperate. So they sent Jimmy Mes to New York City to see a psychic named Yolana Bard, who was known as the queen of the psychics.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

She had worked on a lot of cases, a lot of well known people. And at this point, they're like, can it hurt?

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

As well. Just give it a shot.

[Ash]

Sometimes it can, though.

[Elena]

It can. So apparently he placed case things in front of her, but they were all in sealed packages. Okay. So she wouldn't know what was inside of them. It was. It was their test.

[Ash]

Sure.

[Elena]

They were like, you prove to me that you.

[Ash]

That you're the queen.

[Elena]

So they were like. He was literally like, tell me something. If I wanted to, like, tell me what's going on in one of these. So she stopped over one of them and said, I sense blood in this one. And it was an envelope containing a bloody piece of evidence from the crime scene.

[Ash]

But also, like, there probably would be.

[Elena]

Blood in one of them. So. But then she said she saw dripping, and she said there was a beach. Now, she didn't know what she. Okay. What victim she was talking about. Right. She said there was a beach where the victim was found. And she said their hands were buried. That's what.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That's huge. So she gave him directions to where the hands would be found buried.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Elena]

And he went back to p. Town to look. He was like, all right, I'm gonna go check this out. And he put everything she said together and decided that the place she was indicating, he thought was a place called the Ace of Spades, which was a bar in town. And it had been a while. It had been there for a while. And what happened was the water, I guess, dripped onto the beach from some of the sinks. Sinks. It was, like, known that they. So the dripping water.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And it all kind of matched up with the description. So he went there and she had told him that they would be buried, like, on. In the basement. And unfortunately found out that two months earlier, they had cemented the basement.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

And that's.

[Ash]

That's also a little.

[Elena]

Little strange. A little strange.

[Ash]

Why are you just cementing your basement out of nowhere.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

Maybe you have radon, but still, maybe Massachusetts.

[Elena]

It's old. We got lots of radon coming up in these. These random dirt basements.

[Ash]

I know. So it's really not that crazy to think.

[Elena]

It's really not. But it's still like.

[Ash]

But it's curious timing.

[Elena]

Well, and he was thinking he was going to be able to at least dig around, and he couldn't even do that. So James Hankins, the ranger, said that he had walked away from the crime scene that night, and he noticed something when he walked away. Okay. And he said he didn't say anything. And it's always bothered him. He said he saw pictures and words drawn in the sand a little ways away. But he said he didn't. It didn't look like kids drawings to him because he was like. At first, I was like, oh, kids draw in the sand all the time. It's the cape. Like, kids are here all day every day.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But he was like. For some reason, it just didn't ring as kids drawings to me. And he says it always bothered him because he didn't investigate it or take a photo. Because he was like, whoever drew those things was definitely close to the body recently. Right. Because they would have been erased by the wind or the waves if it was done earlier.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So he's like, it always bothered me that I didn't take the second to go see what they were as well. I know. And the body was finally laid to rest at St. Peter's Cemetery in October 1974. Her tombstone says, unidentified female body found Race Point Dunes.

[Ash]

Oh, that's very sad.

[Elena]

Yeah. And actually, Alyssa Metcalf and said she and her sister Leslie, who was the one who found the body, would often go to the cemetery and visit her grave.

[Ash]

I love that.

[Elena]

And they said they always felt like, a weird connection. Yeah. And it always bothered them that, like, they still don't know who she is. Well.

[Ash]

And it's like you have to, like, respect them, like, through the afterlife.

[Elena]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ash]

Flowers or something.

[Elena]

Yeah. And it's like she's unidentified.

[Ash]

Right. Like, somebody knows her and somebody.

[Elena]

Somebody cares about her, you know, like, who are you?

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

Who are you that misses her and hasn't said anything? But in 1987, 10 years after this, a Canadian woman came forward and said she thought this woman could have been a victim of her father's. Apparently when she was young, which hurts my heart, she witnessed her father strangle a woman while he. She was visiting him in P town in the 70s.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Now this woman Thought that this was the woman. She was like, I think I recognize her as the woman. Wow. So they get this, and they tell Meads about it, and he was like, I'll go up to Canada and I'll. I'll interview this woman.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah.

[Elena]

Like, I'm going. So then they try to contact her again to get more information. She had moved out of her home, and they literally couldn't find her again, and she never contacted them again.

[Ash]

I have goosebumps. Right. Look at my arm.

[Elena]

Right?

[Ash]

I mean, I feel. It's like, that's really shitty. Like, why would you call and, like, get them excited to fix this?

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

Obviously, that must be, like, a really traumatic thing for you to have to, like, even call in the first place.

[Elena]

But it's like someone lost someone and.

[Ash]

Like, clearly you were trying to help. So, like, what made you change your mind?

[Elena]

Follow through to.

[Ash]

You have to wonder, like, is her dad still. Was her dad still alive?

[Elena]

Well, that's what I want.

[Ash]

And, like, she got scared and, like, he found out or something.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, did someone find out in the family and was like, you got to be quiet. Did he find out? There's so much that could have happened there. It's like, we. We don't even know. I can't find any information about what this lady's name is or anything.

[Ash]

Dude, imagine if her dad, like, found out and he, like, also killed her.

[Elena]

Imagine, like, that's not. I need to. I did tons of digging to find who she was. I'm gonna keep digging to find who she was, because I swear to you, I want to find this woman. I'm gonna find this woman.

[Ash]

Come on.

[Elena]

I'm just gonna call Canada. Hi.

[Ash]

Hello. Me, Elena.

[Elena]

Elena and I'd like to talk.

[Ash]

Do you have any comments in Canada, guys?

[Elena]

We do.

[Ash]

Elena's calling. 1-800-Canada.

[Elena]

Excuse me. That's spooky. Johnny and Tyler accurate. Very. Can you help me?

[Ash]

I meant, like, contacts to, like, the police. Police people?

[Elena]

Yeah. Johnny and Tyler, they're very important people. Like, they can. They can help us out.

[Ash]

I mean, they are vip.

[Elena]

They are. All right, so Johnny, Tyler, let's get on this together. More squad up. All right?

[Ash]

We're making this squad huge.

[Elena]

All right? So we got. We got the Canada squad up. So we're ready.

[Ash]

I'm good.

[Elena]

But then there was also a Maryland woman who called and said she thought the woman was her sister who had been. She had just moved to Boston, I guess, recently. And before this, like, when this was happening. Sister.

[Ash]

Sister.

[Elena]

The sister and Suddenly had disappeared. Oh, and she was spending time in P Town.

[Ash]

Right. Because very neural.

[Elena]

No one knew where she went that year. She said she just disappeared. Vanished. And she said her sister matched the height, weight, and hair color.

[Ash]

Did she say anything about dental work at all?

[Elena]

Well, that's the important part, because Meads actually asked for her sister's dental records, and they were able to ship them out to Meads.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

This. They weren't a match. You. No gold crowns, nothing like that.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Elena]

So. Sounded really good. And I honestly, I feel bad for the girl, the Maryland woman, because now I wonder what happened to her sister.

[Ash]

Well, she probably had, like, some ounce.

[Elena]

Of hope, like some kind of closure, you know, the crime scene now is it. And at the time was. I guess in the 70s, was the biggest tourist attraction was that place on the dunes. And even now, it's a big pull for people. But I'm also like, I know. No, it's. It's one of those things that. It's like. You can have a million opinions about it, but it's one of those things that, like, it's never gonna stop. That kind of like. And, you know, it's. Seeing a place like that. It's like going to the Lizzie Borden house. You know, it's like. It's. It's not gonna.

[Ash]

It's like going to the cemetery in Salem.

[Elena]

Exactly. It's. It's morbid curiosity. Definitely go to Salem. It's amazing.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. I love Salem so much.

[Elena]

It's also like. Like I said in the other episode about it.

[Ash]

It's.

[Elena]

It's. I think it's like a profound experience going to Salem.

[Ash]

Absolutely.

[Elena]

When you go to, like, the historical places.

[Ash]

Well, there's so many, like, historical sites. Like, we went to, like, at least like, 42 when we were there the other day.

[Elena]

Massachusetts has, like, a lot of good history, I think. Guys come to Massachusetts.

[Ash]

If you're from here, you get it.

[Elena]

Hello. I'm from the Board of. Of Tourists. Tourism. I can't speak. I'm from the Board of Tourists. I'm on a board on. In Massachusetts. Come visit Massachusetts.

[Ash]

Come little children.

[Elena]

Yeah, that was in Massachusetts, too. See, we have tons of. Listen to it. All right, so they did exhume her body in 1980, 2001 and 2013. See, that makes me.

[Ash]

I know they have to, but they have to be so sad.

[Elena]

I know, but I'm one of those. I think it's like the science in me. I'm like, nope, bring them up.

[Ash]

Absolutely. But then you're just like, who are you? Like, well, that's the thing.

[Elena]

She can't rest.

[Ash]

She's being so disturbed.

[Elena]

Yeah. You just want her to rest in peace. But they keep, you know, advances keep happening in, in science and forensic science. So every time something comes up, they're like, let's bring her up and then use this.

[Ash]

Exhuming her is eventually to get to.

[Elena]

The goal of her rest of her resting in peace. Exactly. And that's always the goal with exhuming a body is to eventually get them to rest forever. But honestly it has nothing's come up every time they brought her up. It's nothing is, is moving forward.

[Ash]

This is the strangest case.

[Elena]

Now. A woman who people might know named Sandra Lee, she's a crime writer. She said when she was nine years old, she actually discovered the lady of the dunes first with her sister, but was too horrified to tell anyone. At nine years old, she was with her dog and stumbled upon her and she said, quote, I stumbled down an incline with my dog. The dog was ahead of me. My dog got excited about something. I heard a very strange noise. If you can imagine someone holding a string of pearls. I heard that sound and then there was a horrible smell. At first I attribute it to low tide. She was face down, her hair was a mess and I could see a gouge in the right side of her neck. Her arms were tucked down in the sand. So I didn't know anything was missing. I recognized the green blanket right away. The lower half of her body was covered with something. She later found out that, that sound like somebody holding a pearl necklace, which you can know, you can tell what that sound is. That was the sound of hundreds of thousands of maggots crawling all over her body. Yeah. She says she is sure that she's like, I am sure either one or a couple other people must have stumbled upon this body in those three weeks and just were too scared to say anything.

[Ash]

Thing that's a little messed up.

[Elena]

And she was like. Because she was like, if it was kids, there was kids, kids all over this story, all over this beach, always playing in these dunes. Think about it. These two people are two children. A 12 year old and a 9 year old. Yeah, I'm sure another kid ran across this. I was like, I don't know what that is. Or ran across it and thought it was just a naked sunbather, especially from a distance.

[Ash]

And now I have a question. How do you transport a bot? Like how do you get the insects off of a body to transport.

[Elena]

Transport it Usually they transport with the insects. Do they? Yeah.

[Ash]

So the people that transport, do they just like gown up or something?

[Elena]

Yeah, they do. Oh yeah, definitely. Gotcha. Especially in a case like that where.

[Ash]

It'S like so many and then you must just like.

[Elena]

I mean you'll definitely, afterwards you'll definitely try to like get them out when there's like hundreds of thousands. Yeah.

[Ash]

But then you don't want to wipe away evidence.

[Elena]

They're just in the bag basically.

[Ash]

Have you ever opened a bag and had. Had.

[Elena]

I haven't been there luckily.

[Ash]

Ah.

[Elena]

Which is a good, a good thing.

[Ash]

Sorry, just a little side note, I was really curious.

[Elena]

For insects, I know they can exist. I just don't want to exist.

[Ash]

Are not for me.

[Elena]

My gods are not something I want to deal with. And that is really a great way to describe the sound of things. It's like about it a pearl necklace in your hand.

[Ash]

That's actually my birthstone. So please leave.

[Elena]

So. So please leave. Thank you. All right.

[D]

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[Elena]

Here'S, here's some of the theories that have come across or people of interest.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Somebody thought she might have been a woman named Rory Jean Kessing her. Now this was a 24 year old woman at the time and she matched the height and the weight of the lady in the dunes. She was also known to be a drug dealer and a bank robber. She was picked up at one point running around naked in the woods in Pembroke saying she was had been sexually assaulted and an off duty police officer brought him to his home to call for backup. And when she got in there she turned off the lights, stole his gun, and then said she had to kill him. Him.

[Ash]

What the.

[Elena]

And he wrestled it from her. But she went to jail for assault and intent to murder. Wow. She went to jail in plymouth, and on May 26, 1974, she escaped from jail because someone smuggled her in a hacksaw, and she sawed through the bars.

[Ash]

Like, I hate to say this, but, like, bad vibes.

[Elena]

She was never seen again.

[Ash]

Unless she's the lady on the Dude.

[Elena]

She was never seen again.

[Ash]

Such as.

[Elena]

No one knows where she was. Went such a different.

[Ash]

Such a different Rory.

[Elena]

Honestly, though, not a different Rory. Rory Gilmore.

[Ash]

She did go to jail.

[Elena]

She did steal a boat.

[Ash]

Huh.

[Elena]

And she commits. She is part of many adulterous affairs. So she's. She's not.

[Ash]

She's robbed any banks, though?

[Elena]

I don't know.

[Ash]

Do.

[Elena]

We don't know. We didn't see her. We didn't see her rob a bank, but we didn't see her not rob. I can't say she didn't rob.

[Ash]

I didn't see you not rob a bank.

[Elena]

So maybe it just didn't make the final cut. I don't know. But either way, it wasn't Rory Gilmore. Okay. And it wasn't this rory, because in 2002, DNA from her mother, they used, like, familial DNA compared to the unknown body, proved it wasn't her.

[Ash]

You know, I didn't think it was her.

[Elena]

I didn't either, but a lot of people thought it was, because the other thing was you see a picture of Rory, and you see a picture of this on the composite. So this composition girl, they do have a striking resemblance to each other. So it is interesting. Now, one of my favorites and one that I think has a little bit of legs here, okay. Is that James Whitey Bulger did this.

[Ash]

And do you. You think this has a lot of legs?

[Elena]

I think it has legs. Okay. I don't. I'm not sold.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

But I think I. I'm like. It's one of those that. I can see that it definitely could be him. And I can also be like. So it's just like. It's one that I just will keep over in a corner.

[Ash]

Well. And if you know anything about Whitey, like, in the whole beginning of this thing, I said, like, this is clearly somebody who's killed before.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

My opinion, at least.

[Elena]

Well, in. You know, we. Especially if you're in Massachusetts, like, everyone knows Whitey Bulger. If you're in Massachusetts, you definitely know Whitey Bulger.

[Ash]

You're probably his.

[Elena]

Your grandparents are probably telling you that they should have just let him keep being on the lamb because. Because he's a harmless old person.

[Ash]

Yeah. Yeah, sure, Papa.

[Elena]

That makes sense. Yeah, sure. So witnesses said that they saw. Because people would see Whitey Bulger all over the place. Yeah, he was existing among everybody.

[Ash]

Everybody was vibing.

[Elena]

Everyone was just letting him do his thing.

[Ash]

Whitey was a vibe and a half.

[Elena]

He was scary. So witnesses said that they did see him with a woman who matched the lady of the Dunes description in P Town. Town at this time.

[Ash]

Interesting.

[Elena]

He was known at this time to be in P Town.

[Ash]

What the Was Whitey Bulger?

[Elena]

You want to know what he was doing? He was frequenting a bar in the area called the Crone and Anchor.

[Ash]

I mean, it makes sense, but, like, yeah, P Town is just such a chill vibe, and Whitey is such a chaotic vibe.

[Elena]

He is. I think that he's chaotic in Boston, and I think he chills and. But if he did this, then. And he's chaotic everywhere, so it'll erase my view of him being chill and P Town. But, yeah, so this. This bar, the Crone and Anchor that he loved frequent down here was very close to where they found her body.

[Ash]

Oh, that's weird.

[Elena]

His thing was to remove his victim's teeth, right? He did have a thing for that. Sandra Lee, the crime writer, thinks she may have. That this woman may have been an Irish immigrant and that she was groomed by Bulger to be forced into sex work.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

Because he was also a human trafficker. Like, he was in all that.

[Ash]

He's a real bad guy.

[Elena]

He's a real bad guy.

[Ash]

I feel like some people kind of like he.

[Elena]

His. He gets glossed over as just, like. I feel like a lot of these, like, mob bosses and, like, crime families, they become a thing glorified. You know, you watch the Sopranos, you see the Godfather, and you see how terrible it all is, but somehow it just. Just. Everyone just kind of is like, but that's a cool crime family. You know what I mean? Like, it's just. I think it's like a weird human thing that. That a lot of people do, and I think he's one of those characters that's so infamous that people just are like, whitey Bulger.

[Ash]

You know what it is? It's like Hollywood.

[Elena]

It is. It's very. It's. He's. He's become a Hollywood figure. So I think it glosses over the true atrocities that he did.

[Ash]

Like, he murdered his own girlfriend.

[Elena]

He Did. And he murdered his own right hand man's girlfriend. Like, made him help him do it.

[Ash]

Oh, maybe. Is that what I'm thinking of?

[Elena]

Yeah. I mean, he definitely, like, murdered women, and he did it in pretty. And he would, like, strangle them, too, which.

[Ash]

Which is again, they think she may have been strangled.

[Elena]

She. So she thinks this. This could be that. And maybe that's why we're not identifying her, because she's not from here. Right. The New York Times reported, quote, tales of his exploits were learned from childhood there. How he shot men between the eyes, stabbed rivals in the heart with ice picks, strangled women who might betray him, and buried victims in secret graveyards after yanking their teeth to thwart identification. That is 100% true. If you grew up here, you grew up hearing tales of Whitey Bulger, literally.

[Ash]

Like, there was, like, a Whitey Bulger, like, a book about, like, him on my summer reading.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Black Mass, probably, maybe. Was it Black Mass?

[Ash]

I don't think it was. It was. I don't know. I'll.

[Elena]

I'll think of it later. But yeah. So Sandra Lee actually thinks he's the guy. Guy. She thinks that's it.

[Ash]

I mean, I think you're right. It does have legs.

[Elena]

It's never been proven that she isn't one of his victims. They haven't been able to prove she isn't. They also haven't been able to prove she is. People hoped he would confess to it, but when he was arrested. But, like, he was beaten, literally, to an unrecognizable pile of meat by inmates in West Virginia, October 30, night, 2018, when he was 89 years old. He literally entered prison and they literally just beat him to.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So he didn't exactly get a chance to admit it, which is kind of a bummer.

[Ash]

Kind of a bummer and actually kind of interesting that, like, inmates beat him to death because. Yeah, there is, like, you know that, like, how there's a hierarchy in prison. You would think a mob boss would be on top.

[Elena]

You would think. But I don't know.

[Ash]

He was horrific.

[Elena]

Like, I don't know. It's a weird. It's a weird. It's a weird flex there. I don't know. It is. But, I mean, he's a really bad guy. So, like. Yeah, yeah, he was. I mean, he was 89 at the time. He had also been on the Lamb for so long. Maybe it was like they were pissed that he got away with it for so long. I don't know who Knows either way, he really got it. But I really would have preferred him to be able to maybe get convinced to like admit a few things.

[Ash]

I just feel like he would have had many things.

[Elena]

There's some families that would, I think would have liked to hear some closure and stuff. So it's like that's a bummer.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly.

[Elena]

That's why like prison justice. Sometimes you're like, okay, but like, I would have liked to get some information.

[Ash]

Like, you know, it works when you're like throwing hot water over Daniel Morcom's killer.

[Elena]

Exactly. Or like tattooing, doing Katie's Revenge on that guy's forehead when he killed. The most thing I've ever heard that stuff. I'm like, all right, do that. It can still talk.

[Ash]

Feel free.

[Elena]

But like, yeah, this is just tough. But yeah, so that's, that's possibly who it could be. Okay, there's another one. In 2000, a serial killer named Hayden Clark. Clark confessed to the murder of the Ladies of the Dunes. Okay. He confessed from prison while he was serving two 30 year sentences for the murders of a 6 year old girl named Michelle Dorr and a 23 year old woman named Laura Hoteling.

[Ash]

Oh my goodness.

[Elena]

He claimed he killed up to 12 women. And he said he buried some of the evidence on his grandfather's property, like in his garden on the Cape.

[Ash]

That's a dick move.

[Elena]

And Clark explained that he had buried evidence from the lady of the Dunes crime in his grandfather's garden. Garden on the Cape. So did we go there and he said he knew the woman's identity but he was not going to tell authorities because he said they were mean to him. So he's not going to tell them.

[Ash]

It's really not their job to like make you feel super welcome.

[Elena]

So, you know. Yeah. So he led police on December 15, 2002, his grandfather's former property. And they did dig in the garden and did find a big plastic bucket filled with more than 200 pieces of jewelry.

[Ash]

Interesting.

[Elena]

Among these things were Laura Hoteling's high school class ring. So he was telling the truth that he buried some of his murder victims things in there. He said they were literally trophies to him. Like he did that, of course. But they couldn't connect anything to the lady of the Dunes because they don't know who the she is. So any of that jewelry could be her jewelry. Right. And we don't know. Police don't believe him though because one, there's no physical evidence that they can connect to him. And then also he was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. And so it's hard for him to tell reality from fantasy.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

And he has moments where he is telling a story and spinning a yarn and it becomes a fantasy. Sure. So they think maybe this was just him just. It happens all the time. That these people in prison who are there for atrocities will confess to other crimes, like Henry Lee, Lucas, Odysse Tool. They. They did the same thing. They just like, honestly, it's just a.

[Ash]

With the investigation.

[Elena]

It's just to. With people and it's like mental illness. And it's like. So they were like, this just isn't really credible. So they were like, yeah, we're not going to be able to really do much with that.

[Ash]

This whole case is so frustrating.

[Elena]

And then there's my favorite theory. Oh, okay. In 2015, Stephen King's son, Joe Hill, had a theory. He wrote in a blog post that he believed that the lady of the Dunes can be seen alive as an extra in Jaws.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. How did I forget about this? I literally knew that this was a thing.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But the entire time we were doing this, my brain just forgot that piece of life.

[Elena]

And he said in his blog post, what if the young murder victim no one has ever been able to identify has been seen by hundreds of millions of people in a beloved, loved summer classic, and they didn't even know they were looking at her. And he said, what if the ghost of the lady of the Dunes haunts Jaws? That freaks me. There is a woman who looks just like the sketches and composites and is wearing Wrangler jeans and a blue bandana.

[Ash]

I mean, hello.

[Elena]

But there's a lot of women at that time that dressed exactly like that.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So he said, quote, this particular woman bears a shocking resemblance and appearance and wardrobe to the murder victim. Suddenly, I tingled all over and came halfway out of my seat. And for the barest of a moment, I thought I had seen her. Now, Jaws had been filmed two hours away from the crime scene, so not that far away. They had never recorded the names of their extras. Oh, and a lot of locals were extras. Like, they would just show up and agree to appear in the final cut.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So police are skeptical, but they said they are not going to say it's not possible that that is her.

[Ash]

I mean, of course, a lot of women dress like that at the time, but the fact that this woman looks like her.

[Elena]

Looks like her in the blue bandana is huge. That's a big one. And did they ever find, like, a.

[Ash]

Bathing Suit top or anything?

[Elena]

No, they didn't find anything like that. I know that's what's weird. And, and so Joe Hill said, quote, part of me thinks that my subconscious mind is so programmed, so trained to quickly generate ghost stories that that's all I've done here. Because he is Stephen King's son.

[Ash]

I was gonna say that is true.

[Elena]

But Jaws screenwriter Carl Gottlieb checked his production notes and he said this scene, number 130 with the extra that they're talking about, was filmed May 25, 1974, two months before and only 100 miles away from where she was found.

[Ash]

Interesting.

[Elena]

So she would have been alive, Right? Right.

[Ash]

Two months is like a long time before, like. But I mean, she could have been there.

[Elena]

She was there. Like, she could have just been there. Right.

[Ash]

I know. I'm thinking of her as like a vacationer.

[Elena]

Yeah. And she, she might have just been living there. Well, and then in 2019, investigators said that they were going to re examine the case trying to use new techniques. They were going to use DNA analysis and genealogical family building sites to try to do it. This is the same kind of thing they used with the Golden State Killer case case. It's becoming a real like valuable thing for these kind of cases. And Cape and the Island DA Michael O'Keefe said, quote, we're going to examine everything we can with respect to the. The remains. Now I'm just going to leave you with one exciting possible thing. American Horror story Season 10 is being filmed in Massachusetts and it has hinted at a Lady of the Dunes storyline possibly as a subplot.

[Ash]

Oh my God.

[Elena]

So I did. I like combed Reddit for some theories about this too because they are really good at like finding these things. They are filming in P Town. They are filming in P Town.

[Ash]

Do you think Billy Lord is in Feet is in P Town?

[Elena]

Yeah, I think she was. And Murphy, Ryan Murphy said, quote, he like put something on his social media that said, quote, something's washing up on the shore girl, something like that. And then teased a photo with two hands on the beach. And as we said, a big part of this was her missing two hands.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

And Murphy has teased out more teasers that have teeth in them interest. I mean, if it's not like the main thing, because either way this is set in Massachusetts. So I'm excited in P Town. I'm excited to see what it is like, I wonder if there's like a Tony Chop Chop card or anything. But either way it could definitely be like a subplot they always put those little, like, nods.

[Ash]

Well, then you have to wonder, like, is it going to be in the 70s? Because oh, my God. God, I love to watch that is set in that time.

[Elena]

I bet it is. I wonder.

[Ash]

I need to know.

[Elena]

So I'm excited to see. I love American horror stories.

[Ash]

So good.

[Elena]

I would love to see it. And that is the very frustrating tale of the lady in the of the dunes that we don't know who she is.

[Ash]

Someday I think we're gonna update you guys. I'm gonna manifest it.

[Elena]

I. I think we're gonna do it. I think we're gonna solve it. I think we. So far we have a good squad. Had. We got Johnny and Tyler up in Canada. Sarah Turney.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

Girl, come on, get done. I know you can get done.

[Ash]

Bailey Sarian.

[Elena]

Bailey Sarian, get over here. Make me look good while we investigate this, please. Yes. And yeah, we're. I think we're gonna do this.

[Ash]

Let's get it, friends.

[Elena]

We'll add some more. Don't worry for sure. Who else should be on the squad?

[Ash]

Everyone is gonna volunteer.

[Elena]

Oh, you know what? Jordan from the nighttime podcast, he's up in Canada too. We got him. Maybe he can find the woman in Canada Squad. All right, I'm ready for this, guys. If you're in, you're in. We'll tag you.

[Ash]

See you soon. And we hope you keep listening and.

[Elena]

We hope you keep it weird, but.

[Ash]

Not sorry that you don't sign up to be part of our squad to finally solve this case. Thank you. Good night.

[Elena]

Sa foreign.

[Ash]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] Survey Focus Features presents the new horror masterpiece Nosferatu from acclaimed director Robert Eggers. Nosferatu is the tale of deadly obsession between a haunted young woman and an ancient and malevolent evil that seeks to possess her. Critics rave. Nosferatu is a knockout and the best horror movie of the year. Don't see it Alone. Starring Lily Rose Depp, Nicholas Hoult and Willem Dafoe. Nosferatu. Rated R. With special engagements in Dolby and imax. Succumb to the Darkness. Nosferatu. Now playing in theaters. Get tickets at www.nosferatu the film.com.