Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers

Summary

Morbid Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson – San Francisco Witch Killers

Released on January 6, 2025
Hosted by Ash and Alaina | Morbid Network | Wondery

---

Introduction to the Case

In Episode 634 of Morbid, titled "Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers," hosts Ash and Alaina delve into a chilling true crime story from the early 1980s. This episode uncovers the disturbing tale of Michael and Suzan Carson, a couple whose twisted beliefs and violent actions left a dark mark on San Francisco's history.

---

Karen Barnes: The Victim

Background and Death
On the afternoon of March 7, 1981, San Francisco detectives responded to a distressing scene at Schrader Street Apartments. They found 23-year-old Karen Barnes's body in the kitchen's basement apartment, her skull crushed by repeated blunt force trauma and stabbed 13 times to her face and neck. Dr. Boyd Stevens, the coroner, concluded that Karen had likely attacked in her sleep and was dead or dying when the assaults began, with her body remaining untouched for about two days (08:00).

Detective Carl Klotz's Observations
Detective Klotz found the apartment unnervingly stark, illuminated solely by votive candles, with minimal furniture and bizarre crayon drawings on the walls signed "SUSAN." This unsettling environment hinted at something far more sinister behind Karen's death (11:15).

---

Introducing Michael and Suzan Carson

Background and Relationships
Karen had moved to San Francisco from Georgia with dreams of becoming an actress. However, her relocation led her into the company of Michael and Suzan Carson, whom friends described as disturbed and potentially mentally ill. Michael, originally James Clifford Carson, had a history of unstable behavior, while Suzan, born Susan Thornell Hamilton, grappled with schizophrenia (22:35).

Influence and Indoctrination
Karen became increasingly influenced by Michael and Suzan's distorted religious beliefs, which blended a poor understanding of Islam with their own unique and dangerous ideology. Friends noted how the couple's presence was both mesmerizing and deeply unsettling, leading Karen to isolate herself further (25:17).

---

The Murders

Clark Stevens' Death
In early May 1981, an altercation on a marijuana farm led Michael Carson to murder Clark Stevens, believing him to be a demonic threat to Suzan. The couple disposed of Stevens's body in chicken manure, later burning it to cover their tracks. This heinous act solidified Michael and Suzan as prime suspects in Karen Barnes's murder (38:24).

John Hellier's Murder
Their violent spree continued when they encountered John Hellier in Bakersfield, California, in January 1983. Claiming Hellier was a "powerful witch," Michael and Suzan shot him multiple times. Their actions were sporadically witnessed, leading to a high-speed police chase that ended with their capture after a dramatic pursuit (55:32).

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Arrest, Trial, and Conviction

Initial Capture and Behavior
Upon arrest, the couple presented themselves as "Mike and Michael Baer," adopting false identities. Their courtroom demeanor was erratic and confrontational, with Suzan frequently disrupting proceedings and Michael consistently displaying a lack of remorse. Notable moments include Suzan's refusal to accept her public defender and their simultaneous guilty and not guilty pleas (73:03).

Courtroom Antics and Testimonies
During their trials, Michael and Suzan incorporated their warped beliefs into their defense, with witnesses like Maude Reinerston, a self-proclaimed "good witch," trying to explain witchcraft's role. Despite their chaotic testimonies and attempts to manipulate the narrative, both were convicted of multiple murders and sentenced to 25 years to life (75:00).

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Life After Conviction

Parole and Continued Legacy
Eligible for parole in 2015, Michael and Suzan faced unanimous opposition from victims' families and even Michael's own daughter, who vehemently opposed any possibility of their release. Their bids for parole were denied, ensuring they remain incarcerated until at least 2030. The lasting impact of their crimes continues to resonate, highlighting the tragic loss of Karen Barnes and others at the hands of this dangerous couple (78:06).

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Notable Quotes

• Detective Carl Klotz:
  "It was so carefully cleaned and emptied before we arrived. Whoever did this wanted no trace left behind." (10:39)

• Susan Carson during Sentencing:
  "I'm crying, so I don't care." (70:18)

• Michael Carson on Commencing Violence:
  "I killed a witch because it's the law of God to do so. Someday the Lord God will set me free." (76:07)

• Michael Carson on Parole Denial:
  "I know this is absurd. No one is going to parole me because I will not and have not renounced my beliefs." (78:37)

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Conclusion

The story of Michael and Suzan Carson is a harrowing testament to how twisted beliefs and unchecked mental illness can culminate in unimaginable violence. Their manipulative and violent actions not only shattered lives but also left a permanent scar on the community they once moved within. Morbid sheds light on this dark chapter, reminding us of the fragile line between belief and madness.

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Timestamps Reference

• 08:00: Details of Karen Barnes's murder scene and cause of death.
• 11:15: Detective Klotz's observations of the apartment and strange drawings.
• 22:35: Introduction to Michael and Suzan Carson's backgrounds.
• 25:17: Influence of Michael and Suzan on Karen.
• 38:24: Description of Clark Stevens's murder.
• 55:32: Account of John Hellier's murder and the ensuing police chase.
• 73:03: Courtroom behavior during trial.
• 75:00: Trial testimonies and eventual conviction.
• 78:06: Parole attempts and familial opposition.

Note: Timestamps correspond to the transcript segments provided.

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Transcript

[Ash]

Hey, weirdos, before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery? It's like a secret passage to an ad free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid network podcast. Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash.

[Alaina]

And I'm Alaina.

[Ash]

And this is Morbid.

[Alaina]

This is Morbid.

[Ash]

It's morbid. I wait at the top of the show. I have an apology.

[Alaina]

Whoa.

[Ash]

I never listen to Morbid because, like, I don't really enjoy hearing my own voice very much, but I listened to the intro of a couple episodes yesterday. Just the intros are my favorite part. Why the fuck can't I stop singing to you people?

[Alaina]

Oh, you love to sing.

[Ash]

I do. But, like, every intro lately is me singing horrifically. And I'm like, we might lose listeners. Our downloads might be down. I was like, oh, gosh, I'm gonna get cited for this.

[Alaina]

I didn't even know that you did that much.

[Ash]

I think there's three in a row, where at first it was JLo, then it was, you got the baddest ideas. Don't sing it.

[Alaina]

Here you go.

[Ash]

I know. I can't help myself. I'm not a fucking theater kid.

[Alaina]

I think it's great.

[Ash]

I hope that other people feel that, because I was listening and I was like, oh, no, I'm ostracizing my community.

[Alaina]

I hope people like it.

[Ash]

I hope so personally. Oh, if not, take me away on a drone.

[Alaina]

Take me away.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

What the fuck? Okay, so this is coming out in about six months, so hopefully.

[Ash]

Hopefully it's more like a few weeks.

[Alaina]

By then if we figured out this drone situation, because you guys are in the future. So right now where we sit, we're in the thick of it.

[Ash]

It's not even Christmas time yet.

[Alaina]

Right now we're in the thick of it.

[Ash]

Right now it's December 13th at the moment we're in the thick of drones. It's Friday the 13th.

[Alaina]

It's the 13th.

[Ash]

Happy Friday the 13th from the past.

[Alaina]

And it's a wintry Friday the 13th. Something about that just gives me those.

[Ash]

You know, what other day it is today? What? Dorinda Medley's 60th birthday.

[Alaina]

Oh, well, my goodness.

[Ash]

Happy birthday to me.

[Alaina]

What a day.

[Ash]

Happy birthday to the queen.

[Alaina]

To the queen.

[Ash]

But anyway, back to the drones. What's your theory? Give me a theory.

[Alaina]

That's the thing. I don't have One. I have no idea what's going on.

[Ash]

I think.

[Alaina]

And I think the government does know what's going on, but they're not telling us.

[Ash]

Don't get the.

[Alaina]

I just want to know why. I think.

[Ash]

I think it's people who are. I think it's aliens who have inhabited the Earth. I think that would be leaving.

[Alaina]

I think that would be sick. Like, I think that would be awesome. I don't know if that's it.

[Ash]

Well, nobody. I think it's something much more sinister vibe.

[Alaina]

Sinister and mundane. Like, it's gonna be something that's much more like, oh, it's that.

[Ash]

Like, you know.

[Alaina]

Yeah. I don't think it's gonna be like, oh, Buck, it's aliens.

[Ash]

Like.

[Alaina]

Because I think we'd all. At this point in our lives, I think all of us would be like, welcome, welcome. Like, let's go.

[Ash]

We already know they're in the ocean.

[Alaina]

Yeah. So I think everybody would be psyched about that. Like, I know I would, but I'm like, I don't know.

[Ash]

Do you think it's possibly like, another country? I don't know, like, spying or something?

[Alaina]

Who the fuck knows?

[Ash]

Literally nobody. Not even the faa.

[Alaina]

I feel like somebody knows.

[Ash]

There was an interview. I was just showing it to Elena. It was with, like, a. I think it's a New Jersey representative. I forget. But he went to this meeting about it, and he walked out of the meeting because he was like, they don't. He goes, they don't know nothing. It's amateur hour. It's amateur hour. I was crying.

[Alaina]

He's like, they had me drive here two hours, and they just tell me they don't know what's going on.

[Ash]

Biggest waste of five hours. I love that, man.

[Alaina]

I, too, would be angry if I drove in New Jersey traffic.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

To get to somewhere for them to say, we don't know what's going on. Well, now I'd be like, this could have been an email now.

[Ash]

Okay. Everything could have been an email. God. People just try to show their importance everywhere. But now they're in Massachusetts.

[Alaina]

I know. That's the thing. I'm like, oh, hey.

[Ash]

Yeah. They spotted them in East Hampton last night, which I feel like is so. Like, it's. I feel like it could be aliens because remember that whole big UFO in Great Barrington?

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You never know.

[Alaina]

That whole big ufo.

[Ash]

That whole big UFO thing. The uncovered bridge or the covered bridge? The uncovered bridge. Is it covered?

[Alaina]

It's covered.

[Ash]

It's covered. The covered bridge.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I've never been there. Please.

[Alaina]

Uncovered Bridge.

[Ash]

That'd be a good book. We uncovered this bridge.

[Alaina]

Uncovered Bridge. Like you discovered it.

[Ash]

Hey, workshop that.

[Alaina]

We'll float that around later.

[Ash]

I might have just given you a good idea. You did.

[Alaina]

But yeah. There was a whole UFO incident. You are correct. And that we should cover that. I know. That would be a good one to cover for sure. I think that's on the docket somewhere.

[Ash]

We love the Burks. The Berserk Shears of Drind.

[Alaina]

The Berserk Shears. Right back to Dorinda.

[Ash]

I can make anything.

[Alaina]

Bronco circled right back around.

[Ash]

Anything.

[Alaina]

Yeah. You know, it's the new year where you are, everybody. And I'm looking forward to it. Personally. I've. Yeah, I've been looking forward to this new year for a long time. I think this is my favorite number is five.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

It's got a five in it. I do love a new year with a five in it.

[Ash]

There you go.

[Alaina]

And I just think it's going to be a great year. Lots of things are planned.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alaina]

Lots of exciting things.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alaina]

Lots of big changes. Lots of big new things. Yeah. Exciting things that you guys can look forward to. We can look forward to.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

I'm psyched about it.

[Ash]

I could literally.

[Alaina]

There's a lot of good books coming out. There is next year. Like Grady Hendrix has a new book coming out in the beginning of the year.

[Ash]

I've got it on pre order.

[Alaina]

Witchcraft for Wayward Girls. And it's big babes. I got an arc and it's real good.

[Ash]

I know you bitch.

[Alaina]

So good.

[Ash]

I can't wait.

[Alaina]

It's so good. Chuck Wendig has a new book coming out in like April, I think. The Staircase in the Woods.

[Ash]

Love that.

[Alaina]

So fucking good. Guys.

[Ash]

That book that we just did for our book club with Sabrina and Corinne. Wayward. You guys have to read that.

[Alaina]

So good.

[Ash]

It's by. I think her name is Amelia, but it's with an E. She's coming out with a new book and I'm assuming it's probably going to come out in 25 sirens. Let me see if there's a release date on it.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I'm really excited for that. She said it's going to be like folklore, almost like.

[Alaina]

Like a folk horror situation. Like Slue Foot is really. I love that. And guys, if you're feeling like. I'm telling you, if you get.

[Ash]

If you.

[Alaina]

It's a good book. Will get you on that path of just wanting to gobble up a million books. It really will.

[Ash]

Sirens is expected to come out April 1, 2025.

[Alaina]

Oh, so the beginning of the half of the year, like really has some. Look at the COVID Some bangers coming out. I love the COVID Yeah, I mean, let's go. Amelia Hart. Yeah, let's go.

[Ash]

Sorry.

[Alaina]

Buy their books. Buy mine too, while you're at it.

[Ash]

I mean, butcher in the round. Hey, 2025. You never know what could happen.

[Alaina]

You never know what could happen.

[Ash]

You never know. Maybe another install wren.

[Alaina]

You never know.

[Ash]

Please, you don't know. I don't know. You know, I have no idea. I don't even know what time is.

[Alaina]

She's a.

[Ash]

What do you say it is? A flat circle. What does that mean?

[Alaina]

It's just like nothing. Like it just is in on itself.

[Ash]

Oh, I like that.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

All right. Well, that's a lot of banter and I enjoyed it again. It's my favorite part of the episode.

[Alaina]

There you go.

[Ash]

But I'm gonna be talking to you guys today about something. A wild case. We briefly mentioned this case when we were doing Crime Countdown. It was like amongst of the numbers as we were counting down.

[Alaina]

Yes.

[Ash]

Michael and Susan Carson, the San Francisco Witch killers. Fascinating case. Simply because these two are characters.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like they're real people obviously, but they're.

[Alaina]

Crazy set of just. I. I don't even know how to describe it. It's just, even. Just that Crime Countdown little blurt we got was like. I'm sorry, what?

[Ash]

It's when you just said I don't even know how to. How to describe it. It's indescribable who they are because they're like a mishmash of their own making. And it's. Yeah, it's also a tragic case because a lot of young people who didn't need to lose their lives did. So let's. Let's get into it. On the afternoon of March 7, 1981, San Francisco detectives were called to an apartment at 8:25 Schrader. This is so hard to say. Schrader Street.

[Alaina]

Schrader. Oh, that is hard. Schrader Street.

[Ash]

It's going from sh to straw.

[Alaina]

Yeah, that's hard.

[Ash]

But in the kitchen of the basement apartment, 23 year old Karen Barnes was sprawled out on the floor. Her head was lying in a pool of blood and the rest of her body was wrapped in a heavy blanket. Whoever had killed Karen had left her body there in the corner of the room, stuffed between the counter and the stove.

[Alaina]

Oh, just so chilling.

[Ash]

Yeah, like very careless. So upon his initial examination, the San Francisco coroner at the time, Dr. Boyd Stevens.

[Alaina]

Boyd.

[Ash]

Boyd. Determined that Karen's skull had been crushed by repeated blows from a blunt instrument. She had also been stabbed 13 times to the left side of her face and her neck.

[Alaina]

You know what, when you hear something like that, I was thinking about this the other day. I think a lot of times people become. I think the whole world is desensitized to so many things right now, big time, that I think when you hear, like, hit repeatedly with a blunt object in the head and, like, stabbed 13 times, you're like, whoa, that's crazy. Sit with it. Yeah, sit with it for a second. Think about what that entails. If you really sit there and think about what that entails, these kind of things will fuck you up so much harder. And I know that's probably not what everybody wants, but that's a lot.

[Ash]

Well, to understand the gravity of a situation like that, move your arm 13 times, your arm's gonna get tired. And imagine being on the receiving end.

[Alaina]

Exactly.

[Ash]

And then. And after you've already been struck in the head however many times.

[Alaina]

Exactly. Like, it hit me with one of our recent cases that I was like, really in my head going through how much time it takes and, like, what that would be like to go through, and it's like, you got to do that.

[Ash]

It's overkill. Yeah, it's overkill.

[Alaina]

It's absurd.

[Ash]

But the coroner wouldn't know for sure until he completed the autopsy. But Dr. Stevens was fairly confident that the cause of death was the, quote, moon shaped cranial injury that had crushed Karen's brain.

[Alaina]

God.

[Ash]

Based on the limited blood splatter on the wall, though, and the fact that there was no blood on the bottom of Karen's feet, He theorized that she attacked in her sleep and was most likely already dead or dying when her killer started stabbing her. My God, you hope that she was already dead just because to experience what she had already gone through and then to add 13 stabs to the face and neck on that. Too much?

[Alaina]

No.

[Ash]

Based on the state of rigor mortise, though, he did conclude that Karen's body had been lying there in the kitchen for about two days.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

Just all by herself.

[Alaina]

Just two days.

[Ash]

To Detective Carl Klotz, the entire scene felt very odd. It was cold in San Francisco that March, but the heat had been turned. Was almost no furniture in this entire apartment. There was just some throw pillows and a pile of blankets on the floor. It seemed like the previous occupants had been squatting there, probably not renting. The detective also noted a lack of electrical appliances in the entire apartment. There were no lamps, no radios, no televisions, and the entire apartment seemed to be illuminated by just votive candles. Ooh. So this is like a creepy scene.

[Alaina]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Ash]

But most unusual of all was the decor. Other than the obvious odors that accompany a dead body, there was a heavy odor of incense hanging in the air. And the only decor that the detective noticed was a large amount of strange crayon drawings on the. On the wall. Oh, on the walls. Excuse me.

[Alaina]

Oh, I hate this.

[Ash]

He said they looked like they had been created by a seven year old kid.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Ash]

And on one of the drawings, Detective Klotz noticed a signature that read only Susan in all capital letters.

[Alaina]

I hate this. Yeah.

[Ash]

And they were not drawn by a seven year old, everybody. In another room, investigators found Karen's purse, which contained her identification, but not much else. In fact, the entire apartment was missing anything resembling evidence other than Karen's body in the corner. It looked like somebody had thoroughly cleaned and emptied the apartment before police even got there.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

So, speaking with the landlord, Detective Klotz learned that the apartment was actually in the process of being renovated. So that was why there was like a lack of objects and any kind of lived in feeling.

[Alaina]

Makes sense.

[Ash]

But unfortunately, the landlord did not know a lot about Karen Barnes. She had moved in a few months earlier. He said she spoke with what he thought was a southern accent. Maybe she was from Georgia. He presumed when she moved in, Karen told the landlord that it was, quote, against her religion to handle money and that the welfare department would handle her affairs.

[Alaina]

Interesting.

[Ash]

Yes. The statements obviously seemed a little strange. Like, that's not something you're going to run into every single day. But this was San Francisco. It's like during the time where hippies are like, you know, changing shit and.

[Alaina]

Whatever, and you're not going to like, question something like that. You're like, okay.

[Ash]

And also as a landlord, I'm sure you're like, as long as I get paid, I don't care who.

[Alaina]

Yeah, you're like, sure, whatever.

[Ash]

So whatever. Otherwise, the landlord said that Karen had been a mostly responsible tenant in the short time that she lived there. But he did say one time recently he saw a quote, and this is a quote, two trampy looking hippies sneak out of the apartment in the early morning. But he said he didn't get a good look at either of them, and he wasn't really able to recall anything distinct about either of them.

[Alaina]

Interesante.

[Ash]

Now, nobody in the building had heard or seen anything strange coming from Karen's apartment in the last few days. So Detective Klotz and the other homicide detectives started the slow and very painstaking process of trying to reconstruct Karen's history and current lifestyle from what they could deduce from friends and acquaintances. Most of those friends and acquaintances interviewed early on in the investigation didn't have much to offer to investigators. But eventually, Detective Klotz did find his way to Randy Jacobson and Marsha Moscow. And they were a couple that Karen had been staying with just before she moved into that apartment where she was found.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Ash]

According to Randy and Marsha, in the weeks before she moved into her new apartment, Karen had been spending a lot of time with a couple that they only knew as Michael and Susan. Randy and Marsha said the couple were transients. They were traveling up and down the California coast. They were selling weed, and they grew that weed in Humboldt county, which I think was in your last case.

[Alaina]

Yeah, it was.

[Ash]

Yeah. Lots of weird California names.

[Alaina]

Why did keep happening?

[Ash]

Susan and Michael had described themselves as Muslims. Spoiler alert, they're not.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That, like, they cherry picked certain things from different religions and like you said, bastardized them.

[Alaina]

Really.

[Ash]

Like twisted religion. Yeah. But according to Marcia, anytime they stayed at Randy and Marsha's apartment. Apartment, apartment. Quote, the stringy haired woman spent half her time in the closet talking to Allah or meditating in the bathtub with her husband.

[Alaina]

Interesting.

[Ash]

So they're strange characters.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

She also said that Susan and Michael explicitly rejected more modern aspects of society, like driver's licenses, Social Security cards, and even electricity. And they spent probably 99% of their time talking about the dangers of witches and witchcraft.

[Alaina]

Huh.

[Ash]

Rude, rude, rude. Personally offended. It seemed that anybody who had spent time with either of them strongly encouraged Karen to keep her distance from this couple. But she never seemed to take anybody's concerns too seriously. Now, when Detective Klotz was able to get a hold of Karen's mother, Barbara Miller, just a few days later, it turned out that Karen's landlord had been right. She was from Georgia. And according to her mother, after graduating high school just a few years earlier, Karen sold her car and she and her friend Debbie headed out to California. She want. She had dreams of becoming an actress, of course, which just ruins you.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

She spent a few unproductive months in la, and then she made her way to Santa Barbara to find. She found a job as a housekeeper. And Barbara told Detective Klotz that Karen was just fine in Santa Barbara. She said she had a steady job, she was taking acting lessons. She Even started dating this nice guy. But unfortunately, all of that fell to the wayside when a friend talked her into moving to San Francisco with them. According to Barbara, moving to San Francisco was the beginning of her daughter's downfall.

[Alaina]

Oh, that makes me sad that she was doing well in Santa Barbara.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like figuring it out.

[Alaina]

Making.

[Ash]

Making. To becoming. Become an actress. Yeah. Now in San Francisco, she found the exciting life that she had probably hoped to find in Hollywood. But instead of actors and celebrities, her new life was populated by hippies and drifters, people who seem to be happy living on the fringes of society. Just a few months after moving up north, Karen was hitchhiking when the driver of a truck that she was riding in fell asleep at the wheel. So he. The truck ran off the road, essentially, and she was thrown from the cab of the truck. She broke her pelvis in the process, which sucks. And the injury sent her back home to Georgia to recover. Now, for Karen, this move from her exciting life in San Francisco and back to a slower life back home in Georgia, very different. Very different. Very difficult, and ultimately just not a transition that she was going to make long term. So as soon as she was well enough to get back on her feet, she made her way back to San Francisco. Throughout the rest of 1980, Barbara's communication with Karen was pretty sporadic. And even when Karen did call, there was a chance that she would be high or drunk, like she was partying a lot.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And their conversation would quickly devolve into an argument, probably from Barbara's concern.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So that being the case, Barbara was hopeful when Karen called in early January 1981 to tell her that she decided to get her life together and that she found this new apartment that she was planning to share with a young couple. Barbara was like, okay, like, that sounds nice.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And Karen told her mother that her new roommates, Susan and Michael Carson, were very religious. But aside from that, she didn't offer any more information. But her mom is hearing this news, and she's used to hearing from Karen when she's under the influence of something.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And now she says she's got this new apartment, she's met this couple, they're religious. She's probably like, okay, like, you're slowing me up a mountain, you know?

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But the last time Barbara talked to her daughter was on Valentine's Day, which also happened to be Karen's birthday. And by then, whatever hope or optimism Barbara had sensed in Karen's voice the last time they talked was completely gone. She recalled Karen telling her mama this is haunting. She said, mama, I have this feeling I won't ever live to see 30. I just have a funny feeling. And when I have feelings like this, they usually come true.

[Alaina]

I can't imagine being a mother and hearing your child say that to you.

[Ash]

No.

[Alaina]

Like, I don't know how you recover.

[Ash]

And just, like, the fact that she knew that in, like, somewhere in her body and mind, like, that's disturbing.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

This show is sponsored by Better help you guys. Life is not about resolutions that just fade away by February. It's about picking up that pen and becoming the author of your own life. And you can think of therapy as your editorial partner, helping you write new chapters and create the meaningful story that you deserve to learn live. I am absolutely a huge fan of therapy. I think it's great when you want to start working on yourself, but it's even better when you want to continue to build upon the work that you've already done. I have benefited so greatly from therapy in 2024, and I have a lot more work to do in 2025 that I'm excited to do. And if you're thinking about starting therapy, BetterHelp is a great place to start because BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient. They have served over 5 million people worldwide. You can access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. And you can easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. It's taken me a few times to get the right therapist, and once you get it right, you will absolutely know. Write your story with better help. Visit betterhelp.commorbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelph. E l-p.commorbid if you're like me, you know that nothing is more important than protecting your loved ones from harm. That's why I, along with millions of other Americans, trust Simplisafe Home security. I want you to enjoy the same peace of mind that I do every day, which is why I'm excited to share an exclusive New Year's discount with my listeners. 50% off your new SimpliSafe system when you order now. I am obsessed with Simplisafe. I love knowing that, you know, if I scurry off to bed before setting the alarm, I could do it right from my phone. If I'm on vacation and I forgot to set that alarm, boom, right there from my phone, I can also check in, see, you know, anything that's going on outside of my house when I'm not even there. Traditional security systems only take action, by the way, after somebody has already broken in. And that's too late. But Simplisafe's Active Guard Outdoor Protection can help prevent break ins before they even happen. The AI cameras are backed by live professional monitoring agents who monitor your property and they can detect suspicious activity if someone's lurking around or if they're acting suspiciously. Those agents see and talk to that person in real time. They activate spotlights and they can even contact the police. All before this person even has the chance to get inside your home. There's also no long term contracts or cancellation fees. Monitoring plans start affordably at around a dollar a day and there's a 60 day satisfaction guarantee or you will get your money back. Start the year with greater peace of mind. Visit simplisafe.commorbid to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and your first month free. That's simplisafe.com morbid there's no safe like Simplisafe. Barbara tried to convince Karen to come back home to Georgia. She was like, we'll figure it out. Like, come home, we'll get you back on your feet.

[Alaina]

And what a good mom.

[Ash]

I know. Barbara really tried.

[Alaina]

She's like, I'll take care of you.

[Ash]

Yeah. But Karen said no. She said she wanted to stick it out in San Francisco for just a few more months to see if she could turn things around for herself.

[Alaina]

No.

[Ash]

According to Barbara, she was having a hard time hearing her daughter during that last phone call because there was a lot of background noise going on wherever she was calling from. And eventually Barbara was like, where are you? And Karen said she was in a payphone booth at the back of the restaurant and said, don't worry, they can't find me back here.

[Alaina]

Okay. That would fuck me up.

[Ash]

The statement was confusing first of all and obviously alarming. But when Barbara asked what the she meant by that, Karen just quickly changed the subject. And very shortly after that, they said goodbye and ended the call.

[Alaina]

That's so chilling that they can't find out.

[Ash]

The last time she ever spoke to her, she tells you she doesn't think she's gonna live to see 30 and that whoever can't find her where she is.

[Alaina]

Yeah, that's really concerning.

[Ash]

So to Detective Klotz, the story was a pretty familiar one. Small town kid, moves to California, has got these dreams of making it really big, find out that things are a lot harder than they anticipated. He'd heard that before.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But the call with Karen's mom had not been entirely unproductive. He did manage to get the names of Karen's mysterious roommates, Michael and Susan Carson. He had a last name now, so the more that he and his partner asked around, the more they discovered just how many people disliked Karen's roommates. Karen's friend Katie Hudson told investigators, I can't stand to be in the same room with that woman. Susan embodied evil.

[Alaina]

Oh, fuck her.

[Ash]

Yeah. And Katie's boyfriend, Greg Brewster, kind of saw Susan and Michael in a slightly more sympathetic light. He agreed they were very strange characters, but he said he also found them interesting.

[Alaina]

Huh.

[Ash]

According to.

[Alaina]

It's weird to hear someone be like, she's the embodiment of evil, and then somebody's just like, I don't know, they're interesting.

[Ash]

And especially his girlfriend says they're evil.

[Alaina]

And he says they're interesting.

[Ash]

They're interesting, but they're weird.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. According to Greg, Michael Carson had written a manuscript titled the Way, which he wanted to have published eventually. The book was like sort of an autobiography. It detailed how he and Susan had met in Arizona in 1977. And then they embarked on this back tripping, backpacking trip to Europe.

[Alaina]

Back tripping?

[Ash]

Back tripping. They probably were back tripping.

[Alaina]

They 100% were, because.

[Ash]

Yeah, they were. They went back trip. I was just about to say it.

[Alaina]

Again, because that's what they were doing.

[Ash]

They went back tripping to Europe and they became drug smugglers there. Of course, when they came back to the us, Susan and Michael started traveling a circuit between California and Arizona, trafficking drugs and promoting, I guess what you could call, I mean, a very bizarre blend of mysticism and a very poorly informed understanding of Islam. They, like I said earlier, they picked little bits of Islam, but even the parts that they picked, they. They were not. Yeah, they twisted them. It wasn't actual. I don't know if it's tenants of Islam.

[Alaina]

Yeah. Honestly, it sounds to me like when people will take little bits of, like, Christianity and like, all these other kind of like, Catholicisms and, you know, all that kind of stuff and pull little pieces from it, and sometimes they pull the worst pieces from them and then twist them to be even worse.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

And then make their own little, like, shit religion.

[Ash]

Ball of shit religion. Yeah.

[Alaina]

It's like. And it sounds like that's what they were doing.

[Ash]

It's very cult. Yeah, it's very cult.

[Alaina]

Exactly. It has cult vibes.

[Ash]

So through more interviews with Karen's friends and her acquaintances, a Picture of Michael and Susan Carson started to emerge. Nobody seemed to know anything about their backgrounds other than the fact that they came from Arizona. But everybody got the sense that they both seemed to be suffering from some kind of mental illness.

[Alaina]

Yeah, they were all there. Certainly sounds that way.

[Ash]

Yeah. They were not all there. To Karen's friend Lillian, a registered nurse, Michael and Susan, she said, seemed like classic schizophrenics. And that the moment she met them, she got the feeling they were dangerous.

[Alaina]

Oh, wow.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

That's scary.

[Ash]

Yeah. I can understand why people get that feeling. And obviously, like, you don't want to judge a book by its cover, but.

[Alaina]

You sometimes you got to, man, I love book covers.

[Ash]

I do judge a book by its cover, to be honest.

[Alaina]

I'm just gonna be real with you.

[Ash]

If you got a good cover, I'm gonna buy it.

[Alaina]

And that's that you don't make your full judgment. Yes. Don't make your, like, end sent judgment and sentencing on a cover.

[Ash]

Right.

[Alaina]

But you can take some. Some little bits and pieces, gather some evidence from the COVID And it's also.

[Ash]

Like a gut instinct. You know, Sometimes you see someone and regardless of what they look like, you get a feeling from them.

[Alaina]

Exactly.

[Ash]

Looking at the two of them, you get a feeling from them that they do embody evil.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You looking?

[Alaina]

I am. I get a feeling.

[Ash]

Evil.

[Alaina]

I got a feeling it could be bunnies. It's.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah, it's.

[Alaina]

That's the thing. Like, there's something in the eyes.

[Ash]

The problem. There's nothing in the eyes, actually. That's the problem.

[Alaina]

Nailed it.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Alaina]

Nailed it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

Yes.

[Ash]

So for the most part, it seemed that the only reason anybody even tolerated Susan and Michael's presence was because they always had, quote, unquote, good drugs.

[Alaina]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Ash]

Good reason to be friends with people.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But by early 1981, even that wasn't enough. The good drugs would not suffice. According to Marcia Mosque Moscow, Karen's former roommate there, when she and her partner Randy came home from a vacation to Mexico, they just found Michael and Susan squatting in their apartment. Can you fucking imagine if you go on a vacation with your mans and you come back home and your old roommate's friends are squatting in your fucking place?

[Alaina]

No, I cannot.

[Ash]

Also, neither of them seemed embarrassed or guilty at all about having, you know, taken full advantage of Randy and Marcia.

[Alaina]

Awesome.

[Ash]

On the contrary, even after Randy and Marcia came back from Mexico, Michael and Susan were like, yeah, we are not gonna leave.

[Alaina]

We're just here.

[Ash]

We live here.

[Alaina]

We're just here. That's a no for me.

[Ash]

And it's not like they were just, like, regular. Well, first of all, they weren't roommates. They were squatters. But, yeah, they weren't just regular squatters. I guess they were worse because their constant presence became a very serious source of stress for Marcia, in particular.

[Alaina]

I would lose my mind.

[Ash]

They would just endlessly rant about the coming apocalypse all the time. And she was like, I can't handle this. Like, we gotta go.

[Alaina]

That's really inconvenient. And also very existential. Dread. Dready.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I would cry a lot. And this was like, before people went to therapy. So can you even imagine I'm going to therapy about the end of the world right now? I can't imagine.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Not having that at my fingertips.

[Alaina]

For real.

[Ash]

Even though there were people who were like, most people were just put off by Susan and Michael Carson, there were some people within their social circle who had actually had very intense confrontations with them.

[Alaina]

That's not shocking to me at all.

[Ash]

Yeah, no, me either. When Karen's friend Sybil learned of her murder, her first response was, I'll bet Susan and Michael did it. If you have anyone in your social circle that you'd be like, oh, yeah, they definitely did it.

[Alaina]

My goodness. Yeah. Like, you gotta rethink that social circle.

[Ash]

Yeah. Move away from that social circle.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

According to Sybil, she said Michael bore a strong resemblance to Charles Manson in both appearance and personality.

[Alaina]

Oh, I thought you were gonna just say, like. She was like, he looks like Charles Manson, so he probably did it. I was like, that's not super fair.

[Ash]

No, that's not super fair. She said, he looks like him and he acts, but personality.

[Alaina]

Ye.

[Ash]

So that's scary. He was very intense, very distant, and it was in a way that made her feel deeply uncomfortable. But it was actually Susan who she really disliked.

[Alaina]

That seems to be a pattern here.

[Ash]

It sure does. One night when they were all hanging out at a friend's apartment, Susan just out of nowhere, accused Sybil of being a, quote, witch consorting with the devil. And she screamed at her, throw your necromancer book away. You're trying to open the gates of hell.

[Alaina]

And she didn't yell back at her.

[Ash]

Hell? Yeah. I think she said. I think she said, what? Hello?

[Alaina]

Like, imagine who out of nowhere, someone's just like, witch. You're a witch consorting with the devil.

[Ash]

Throw your necromancer book. I would.

[Alaina]

Literally, you're trying to open the gates of hell. I'd be like, please elaborate.

[Ash]

Tell me what.

[Alaina]

What made you think that about me?

[Ash]

Tell me. Is that my aura? Oh, my God. Is that my aura?

[Alaina]

Is that, like, what you first thought.

[Ash]

But serious, but genuinely like. But, like, that was, like, an serious way of looking at it in reality.

[Alaina]

That's terrifying.

[Ash]

I would cry. I would.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Me, I would cry.

[Alaina]

Because this isn't like, somebody being funny and being like, I think you're a witch trying to consort with the devil. She's like, I think you're a witch trying to consort with the devil and.

[Ash]

You should die, and I want to do something about it.

[Alaina]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ash]

But a few weeks before the murder, Sybil could clearly see that Susan and Michael's influence on Karen was, like, you know, growing. Growing. Exactly. Karen came to Sybil's apartment and declared emphatically that she had found the Lord, and she insisted that Sybil abandon her, quote, unquote, witchcraft and magic, or she would be, quote, condemned to hell.

[Alaina]

Sybil was like, boy, okay, this is when it gets gnarly.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Alaina]

Keep it to yourself.

[Ash]

Keep it to yourself. Karen had always seemed pretty naive and innocent to Sybil and probably more than a little too trusting. So when she recognized that Karen had become essentially indoctrinated by Michael and Susan, she decided to keep her distance from all three of them. She closed that social circle. Yeah.

[Alaina]

Because honestly, it's like, what do you do? I don't know. When it's like. When it gets to that point, it's like, it's really hard to pull someone back out of that well, and you.

[Ash]

Just have to protect yourself.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You know? Now, by all accounts, Karen Barnes was exactly the sweet, naive young woman that everybody said she was.

[Alaina]

That makes me sad.

[Ash]

I know. And as far as Detective Klotz could tell, it was most likely that naivete that got her into trouble.

[Alaina]

Unfortunately, that's even worse that they prey on people like that.

[Ash]

Yeah. And I don't even like to say naivete, just trust. She's trusting.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

According to one friend, Karen always went for the underdog. And as soon as she met Susan and Michael Carson, she was mesmerized and just wanted to help them. That's all she wanted to do.

[Alaina]

And they have, like, cult leader vibes, so. Like that. And that's what they do. They prey on people who want to help other people or, you know, vulnerable in some way.

[Ash]

They hunt them down.

[Alaina]

Exactly.

[Ash]

Within a few days of the murder, Susan and Michael Carson jumped to the top of the suspect list, at least as far as Detective Klotz. Was concerned. But the problem was, in that kind of culture that really existed on the fringes and, you know, was probably pretty resistant to cooperating with the police, finding leads and evidence felt increasingly impossible. Oh, yeah, no one was gonna talk.

[Alaina]

That's the thing.

[Ash]

Not everybody wanted to talk. Most of Karen's friends felt like it was entirely possible that the couple had something to do with her death. But none of them even knew their last names, much less where the hell they were. And Detective Klotz and his partner would end up spending more than a year chasing leads that inevitably just went nowhere. Wow. As they and the other investigators on Karen's case search for San. Search San Francisco for their suspects, Susan and Michael Carson were already hundreds of miles away. They had hitchhiked north through California and into Oregon. I said it correctly.

[Alaina]

The Oregon Trail, you mean?

[Ash]

No, it's the Oregon Trail.

[Alaina]

Oregon Trail.

[Ash]

I can't believe it.

[Alaina]

I can't either. I refuse.

[Ash]

I refuse.

[Alaina]

I love you guys.

[Ash]

In their hitchhiking travels through Lake Creek, Oregon, they met a couple who told them about this abandoned cabin in this very remote section of the Cascade Mountains. They said you could definitely stay there for a while and you could avoid most, if not all, of society.

[Alaina]

Whoa. Where is that place? Can you give me the coordinates?

[Ash]

After being pointed towards an old logging trail that led into the mountains, they hiked into the forest and eventually found said cabin, which I don't really know if you want to go to there because it wasn't much more than a one room shack. And they said it probably would have been blown over at the slightest wind.

[Alaina]

Yeah, it sounds a little bit like the evil Dead, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna stay away from that.

[Ash]

Little too remote for me.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Despite the shitty accommodations, they actually stayed at that cabin in the Cascades for over a year, surviving on whatever they could grow from their garden, their vegetable garden, and whatever food they could scrounge from their occasional trips into town during this period. And obviously, I think because they were so isolated, their paranoia and their bizarre belief system just continue to grow.

[Alaina]

Because think about it. They are in an echo chamber of their own twisted beliefs just being echoed back at them over and over and over and intensified.

[Ash]

I'm sure they're trying to one up each other with their.

[Alaina]

Yeah, no counteracting ideas either. It's all the same. Like, let's just keep feeding it.

[Ash]

It's yes and yes.

[Alaina]

It's.

[Ash]

It's their scary improv.

[Alaina]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

Yeah. And the other thing is, they were emboldened by the Fact that so far, they had gotten away with murder.

[Alaina]

Yep, that's always the case.

[Ash]

All throughout the year, Michael kept an eye on the regional newspaper, certain they would be named as suspects in Karen's death. But he never saw the slightest hint that the police were searching for them. And even on his occasional trips back to Los Angeles or San Francisco, where he was sure he'd hear something, seemed like nobody suspected either him or Susan as the killers.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

So in the winter of 1981, after an altercation with a couple who lived in a cabin further down the mountain who Susan had accused of worshiping Satan.

[Alaina]

That seems to be her thing.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's kind of her vibe.

[Alaina]

That's kind of her vibe.

[Ash]

Like what she does. Michael and Susan decided, you know, maybe it was time for them to move on from this cabin. Since they'd been vigilant about checking the papers throughout the year, they were again very confident that they weren't suspects in Karen's murder. So they found no reason why they shouldn't return to California or at least move around the Pacific Northwest freely. Eventually, Michael and Susan made their way to Alder Point, which is a tiny town in Northern California. The population is less than 100. Whoa.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Or at least it was at the time.

[Alaina]

That's interesting, to go to a place like that.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

Where you're not. You're gonna stick like they know everybody there. Probably.

[Ash]

I know. Interesting.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Interesting choice. But in the past, Alder Point had been known as a stop along the Northwestern Pacific Railroad. But by the 1970s, any industry that had been there was long gone. And all that was really left was a few weed farms deep in the woods. So I think the thing that they figured was, I mean, weed is illegal at the time. Yeah, nobody's really going to bother anybody.

[Alaina]

Around there, you know, that makes sense.

[Ash]

Once there, Michael and Susan found work on a marijuana farm, and they spent their days harvesting, tending to the crops, hauling the plants back to the farmhouse to be processed. As enthusiast of enthusiasts, excuse me, of drug culture, the work was satisfying for them. They both stayed happily on the farm for months. In fact, they probably would have stayed there for forever if it hadn't been for Clark Stevens.

[Alaina]

Oh, man.

[Ash]

Clark Stevens was a friend of one of the farm workers who would periodically come from San Diego to Alder Point to transport the drugs. He actually had been arrested in LA and was bailed out by the farm's owner, John Walker. And in exchange, Steven signed over the title to his truck to Walker. And Walker brought him on as an informal Partner in the farm's business. As far as Susan and Michael could tell, Clark was just another southern California dude who came north to cash in on the increasingly lucrative pot farms in Humboldt county. And they fucking hated him. From the moment they met Clark, Susan and Michael had been at odds over everything. And even the most casual conversations just escalated into arguments.

[Alaina]

Have you ever, like, met someone like that, that you just fucking hate each other immediately?

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alaina]

Me too.

[Ash]

Yeah. As tensions on the farm continued to escalate, Susan became convinced that Clark Stevens was a demon. Like, and I know that sounds funny.

[Alaina]

No.

[Ash]

Like, she genuinely thought, this is, like.

[Alaina]

Religious mania kind of situation. Like, this is not. But, like, I think, like, I've thought someone's a demon before in a funny way, like, being like, they're a demon. They say demonic things. They're the worst.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

This is like, I think there's a demon.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alaina]

Here. And I need to eradicate. Which is not good.

[Ash]

Exactly. It's sad because obviously there's some kind of unchecked mental illness there.

[Alaina]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

But it's like, you wish that there was people around her that were like, hey. Or people around them that were like, hey, you need help?

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And I'm sure there were, but they just ignored it. So things finally came to a head in early May of 1982, when Clark came back to the farm after being thrown off the property. Just a few days earlier, he was thrown off the property for assaulting his ex girlfriend, which is not great. But John Walker, the farm's owner, had gone into town that morning, which meant that Michael and Susan were watching over the farm in case of any unwanted visitors. At first, when Clark got there, Michael said he tried to resolve the situation calmly, telling Stevens that he wasn't welcome on the farm anymore. But when Stevens wouldn't leave, he said things escalated. And of course, after some strong encouragement from Susan, Michael drew a.38 caliber pistol from his waistband and pulled the trigger. But the gun failed to fire.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Ash]

Now, aware that he was in serious danger, Clark Stevens ran at Michael to try to probably disarm him. But Michael fired a second time and sent the bullet through Clark's lower jaw. Oh. So he immediately fell to the ground. And with Clark on the ground, Michael approached and shot him a second time in the torso, and then fired a third time, hitting Clark in the head just behind the ear.

[Alaina]

Holy.

[Ash]

Later, Michael and Susan would claim that they killed Clark Stevens because he was a, quote, demon and a, quote, petty witch who wanted to live off of Susan's life. This is up no, it's deeply disturbing. But they acted quickly. To cover up the murder. They buried Steven's body in a pile of chicken manure.

[Alaina]

See, and this is where things like. This is where, like, you know, insanity pleas and all that stuff are so difficult and so complex and so layered. Because, like, you think of. We shot him because I was convinced he was a demon and that he was a petty witch who wanted to live off of Susan's life. You look at that and you go, okay, insane. Something's really off here. And these are two literally sick people.

[Ash]

And this isn't like they just said that to get some kind of insanity.

[Alaina]

Like, they've been thinking it for a while.

[Ash]

They just said that all along the way.

[Alaina]

But then you look at people covering up what they've done, and you say, well, then you know what you've done. And then when you look at, like, chicken manure being what they chose, I'm like, you chose that? You chose manure for a reason.

[Ash]

Absolutely.

[Alaina]

And to me, that's like evil. You're evil. You just happen to also have a mental illness.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alaina]

You know. Yeah, it's crazy.

[Ash]

Well, and then they went even further. They set fire to the pile to try to destroy the body. And then they just went back to the house, went back to the farmhouse, and they found that several of Clark Stevens friends from LA had arrived and were looking for drugs. So they told the group that he was out and he wouldn't be back until later, which again, you know.

[Alaina]

Yeah, you know where you're.

[Ash]

You're covering up for your shit. But the group decided to stay and wait it out. There are so many extra fees that you have to pay in life. Like, every time I take a flight somewhere, I feel like there's like 400 fees that pop up. When we're trying to make progress, life's curveballs often feel like we're taking one step forward and two steps back, or sometimes like 54 steps back. But guess what? A Chime checking account makes financial progress easier with features like no maintenance fees, fee free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at chime.com morbid. Trust me, I remember living paycheck to paycheck and being like, oh, I have to pay my car payment, but also my phone bill and I have to buy lunch today because I'm starving and I didn't make any at home. And it would have been really nice to have that overdraft of up to $200 with no fees or even getting that paycheck two days early with direct deposit. Join millions of Chime members who are working on financial progress. You get spotted on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals and guess what? There's no monthly fees or maintenance fees and there's over 50,000 fee free ATMs. Make progress towards a better financial future with Chime. Open your account in two [e-mail] morbid that's chime.com morbid Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA members. FDIC Spot Me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in Spot Me and are subject to monthly limits. Timing depends on submission of payment file fees. Apply at out of network ATMs. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Every new year we all set sort of big goals, but only 8% of people will stick with the resolution all year long. But with Acorns you can lock in years and years of healthy money habits in just five minutes. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, for your kids and your retirement. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got right now. You can start with $5 or even just your spare change. You don't need a ton of time. You can create your Acorns account and start investing in just five minutes. You don't need to feel like financial wellness is impossible. Acorns gives you small simple steps to get you and your money on track. Head to acorns.commorbid or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for future Today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier one compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor view important [e-mail] morbid so days passed with no sign of Clark causing even John Walker, who was the one who threw him out days earlier to become suspicious. Yeah, Clark's truck was still parked at the house house and it had a dead battery because that was why Susan Michael didn't move it. It had a dead battery and it seemed out of character for him to just disappear on foot. So John Walker sitting there like what the is going on? Yeah and in the days that followed, Michael and Susan just acted like nothing had happened. And they downplayed Clark's disappearance as typical for a quote unquote junkie. Yeah.

[Alaina]

So this is. If they really thought he was a demon, they would be like, we killed the demon.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Alaina]

Like they wouldn't be trying to cover this up because they did something good. They killed the demon.

[Ash]

Exactly. So the only thing they did have going for them was that nobody wanted to draw attention to the. To the authorities. So reporting his disappearance to the police was out of the question.

[Alaina]

That's crazy.

[Ash]

Yeah. Still, the idea of going to the police though had been mentioned and it was enough to make Michael start getting paranoid. So about a week after Clark Stevens murder, Susan and Michael told John Walker that they decided to move on and just gave him some story about needing to make more money.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

So then they got the hell out of there. They got the hell out of Dodge. They went back to Oregon where they stayed in a cave for a few days. Jesus, a cave. Before deciding that they probably needed a better plan. Eventually they decided that Michael should head to la. And assuming that there was no sign the police were looking for them, they would. They would return to the city. So Michael made it to LA in late May and was almost immediately picked up by the police. But just for hitchhiking.

[Alaina]

Ah.

[Ash]

The officer who stopped him patted him down for weapons. But whether because of his inexperience or discomfort, he didn't bother patting down the area near Michael's stomach and groin and didn't find that Michael was carrying a.38 caliber pistol in his waistband.

[Alaina]

Babe, where do you usually keep a weapon like that?

[Ash]

And also like in your waistband, full blown. Are you kidding me? And you, you took the time to pat him down for weapons but missed a.38 caliber pistol at his waistband, at his places. Hello.

[Alaina]

Like, come on.

[Ash]

Still, Michael assumed that they were picking him up for Clark or Karen's murder and this was the end for him. But he was shocked when a few minutes later, the officer let him go. It turned out that the police were searching for a rape suspect who matched Michael's general description. But when it turned out to not be him, they just let him go without any further questions. So to Michael, the fact that he had not been arrested or even recognized when he was picked up by the police was thanks to some kind of divine intervention. And he took it as a sign that he and Susan were safe to start moving back towards south, towards Southern California again. But the timing, you know, couldn't have been Any more. Perfect. As the couple got back on the road, John Walker's dog started digging through a pile of ash and manure on the farm.

[Alaina]

Oh, damn.

[Ash]

And eventually unearthed a scorched human skull, which he brought back to the house for Walker to discover.

[Alaina]

Imagine your dog just bringing you a scorched human skull. No, that would be life changing. Yeah. You don't come back from that.

[Ash]

You would never be the same, ever.

[Alaina]

No.

[Ash]

And by that point, there were two predominant theories about Clark's death. Either John Walker had killed him, or Michael Carson had done it.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

And given that the body was found on his property, John Walker thought there was a pretty good chance that he would be the one to take the fall for the murder if he tried to cover it up. So despite the risk to his operation. Cause remember, he is operating a weed farm, which is illegal.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Still, he reported the discovery to the police. So he did the right thing.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

The fire had completely devastated Clark Stevens remains. But remarkably, his wallet somehow survived the fire. And that allowed investigators to identify him without much trouble.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

Yeah. Walker told the detectives everything he knew about Stevens. And more importantly, everything he knew about the couple he suspected of killing him. Michael and Susan. According to Walker, the couple was strange. And everybody on the farm usually just referred to them as the anarchists.

[Alaina]

The anarchists.

[Ash]

And that was because they were constantly quoting from the Anarchist Cookbook, which is a 1971 manifesto that included instructions for making bombs and other weapons of guerrilla warfare.

[Alaina]

Wow. Okay. Yeah.

[Ash]

Just walking around a peaceful farm quoting that. Cool. Like the murder of Karen Barnes, Clark Stephens murder quickly turned into an investigative headache. Make. Not only was this victim an off the grid kind of guy, but the suspects were equally and frustratingly mysterious. The other thing working against investigators was the fact that in a part of Humboldt county known almost exclusively for its marijuana industry, finding reliable witnesses who were actually willing to talk to the police was essentially impossible. So in almost no time at all, the investigation into Clark's murder went cold. And it would still be several more months before the case broke open.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

So now we have two murders.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, when investig investigators in Humboldt county were finally able to search Michael and Susan's camper van on the farm, they made several surprising discoveries that pretty much confirmed what they had already learned about the couple. Among other things, detectives found a box of.38 caliber ammunition, which was the caliber again used in Clark Stevens murder. They found a driver's license for a man named Richard Arata, which turned out to have been stolen the previous year.

[Alaina]

Awesome.

[Ash]

A copy Of Michael's manifesto, which was titled Cry for war.

[Alaina]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

And as far as the investigators could tell, the manuscript was really not much more than ramblings of a very disturbed mind.

[Alaina]

Not shocked.

[Ash]

But it also included a number of very alarming comments, including labeling high profile people like president Ronald Reagan, Vice president Bush, and California governor Jerry Brown as targets who, quote, must be eliminated because they are witches.

[Alaina]

Whoa.

[Ash]

Yeah. In the days that followed the discovery of Clark Stevens body, Investigators in northern and southern California had been in contact and had strong reason to believe that the couple suspected in the Stevens murder Weren't just suspects in the Barnes murder, Had also had a handful of run ins with the law in the past two years. But the problem was at that point, Michael and Susan were off to the wind again.

[Alaina]

They're just off just. They're on the yam.

[Ash]

Where the. They are?

[Alaina]

Yeah, they're on the yam.

[Ash]

Michael and Susan spent months just camping and hiking throughout northern and central California. They just retreated deeper and deeper into that shared psychosis, and their delusions were spinning wildly out of control.

[Alaina]

That's so scary. It's so, like, yucky to think about. Like, think of the stress, the anxiety, the paranoia, the hate, the. The smell. Like, all of that just like, makes my, like stresses my nervous system out to think about. Yeah.

[Ash]

The lack of showering.

[Alaina]

All of it.

[Ash]

The lack of common sense, good logic, anything.

[Alaina]

Love, compassion, empathy.

[Ash]

Anything.

[Alaina]

Humanity.

[Ash]

Yeah. Any of that. All those adjectives.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

At some point also, Susan received what she believed was a message from Allah, she said, commanding them to go to Texas to continue their war against demonic forces.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Ash]

So in late fall of 1982, they started heading south to do just that. They reached Bakersfield, California on January 11, 1983, where they were able to flag down a passing truck driver who actually stopped to give them a ride. The driver introduced himself as John Hellier and asked whether they had a joint, which they did. What does that say? Cash, ass or grass? Oh, yeah, they had grass.

[Alaina]

They had grass.

[Ash]

They had grass. So later, during their trial, Michael and Susan would claim that John, the driver of this truck, had attempted to sexually assault Susan and that Michael killed him in defense of his common law wife.

[Alaina]

Incorrect and really cool of you to try to sully that man's name in death.

[Ash]

Yeah, especially when you hear more about this man and what he was willing to do for them. Like, you guys can go fuck yourselves. Because before that, Susan would tell everyone that she immediately recognized Jon as a powerful witch and somebody who needed to be eliminated.

[Alaina]

They are meeting so many powerful witches.

[Ash]

It's crazy. Yeah, powerful witches everywhere. A few years later, they would also make a similar claim, telling a reporter that they, quote, plotted the death of Hellier because he was a witch, Triple Scorpio, who was making sexual advances toward Susan Carson, punishable by death under their face.

[Alaina]

Whoa. What does the triple Scorpio of it all have to do? Not sure with that.

[Ash]

Poor Scorpio. Scorpio's got a bad vibe.

[Alaina]

I was just gonna say, like, poor triple Scorpios out there.

[Ash]

I know. Scorpios in general get such a bad vibe.

[Alaina]

Yeah, Scorpios out there. This one's for you. I'm pouring a false. A fake thing out.

[Ash]

Me too.

[Alaina]

Poor one else. Yeah.

[Ash]

Anyway, Michael and Susan changed their story so many times that most of the time to include their weird ideology. So it's impossible to know what really happened next. But what is known is that as the sun started to set over Bakersfield, John generously allowed them to stay at his house until the next morning, rather than send them back out on the highway to keep hitchhiking. He was like, you know what? Like, it's the middle of the night. Like, why don't you just crash here?

[Alaina]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

My fucking home. Yeah.

[Alaina]

What pieces of shit these guys are.

[Ash]

And the next morning, he even offered to drive them back to the main road, where they would have been more than likely to catch another ride. He was like, let me get you further out so that you can actually keep going. Like, yeah, he's just helping them out.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

As they drove, Michael sat anxiously between John and Susan in the cab of the truck, just waiting for the right moment to pull out his gun. Because the previous evening, as they just laid next to each other being disgusting, Susan made it very clear to Michael that Jon was a demon and a very powerful witch and that they needed to eliminate him.

[Alaina]

So, wait, he's a demon? Anawit. Both Those are not two separate entities.

[Ash]

No, they're different.

[Alaina]

They're the same.

[Ash]

Demon witch, triple Scorpio.

[Alaina]

Three different things, all the same thing. Oh, I thought it was. It seems to her like it's all the same. It's one guy.

[Ash]

It's like they're even scarier if they're all three.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

You know, who.

[Alaina]

Who would have known? I think I thought demons and witches were separate, and I didn't even put Scorpios into the equation.

[Ash]

Well, silly mistake you made.

[Alaina]

I know. I'm crazy.

[Ash]

Silly mistakes break. So the time finally arrived. As far as Susan was concerned, they Needed to do it that night.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But Michael was reluctant to do it right then.

[Alaina]

So the next is they're staying in his home.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. I guess he just didn't want to murder a man in his own. But the next morning, when John started to slow down as they approached just a roadside fruit stand, Michael finally produced the.38 pistol and pointed it right at John. After a few seconds of confusion, John slammed on the brakes and turned off the ignition and jumped out of the truck to run. But Michael is fast behind him. And once outside, they both started fighting in the grass as Michael was just trying to aim the pistol. So just like rolling around in the grass and John's trying to fight him off. As they were just wrestling on the ground, Hellier spotted the guy operating the fruit stand, and he yelled to the kid for help, but the teenager just stood there and stared at them in awe.

[Alaina]

Oh, come on.

[Ash]

It's like, I understand being scared in that situation, but, like, you gotta do something, anything.

[Alaina]

I don't know what.

[Ash]

Run the opposite way for her.

[Alaina]

Yeah, do literally anything.

[Ash]

Now, uncertain that he could overpower John himself, Michael yelled to Susan for help, asking her to stab him.

[Alaina]

My God.

[Ash]

And Susan ran over and did her best to. But since they were moving so quickly and sharply, she wouldn't have been able to stab John without potentially stabbing Michael. So instead, she tried to. To stick her finger in John's eye to blind him, but she unintentionally ended up jamming her finger into his mouth, which he bit down super hard on and nearly severed her stupid finger.

[Alaina]

Hell yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. After losing control of the gun, John managed to push Michael off of him and ran to the truck to grab his toolbox. Probably trying to find something to defend himself. But as soon as he reached the toolbox, Michael fired a shot. The bullet grazed John's head, and he dropped his toolbox box in an attempt to flee all together. He ran around the side of the truck and unexpectedly ran right into Susan, who knocked him to the ground. And he was just laying helpless in the grass. At that point, Michael approached and shot him twice in the head.

[Alaina]

That's awful.

[Ash]

Yeah. And he just. He was so desperate, fighting for his life, like.

[Alaina]

And imagine, like helping all these people was help them. Yeah. And that's what happens.

[Ash]

And went out of his way to help them.

[Alaina]

Like, that's crazy.

[Ash]

So with John Hellier now dead, the couple started walking back to the truck, and that's when they spotted a car. Slow down. Which the car actually came to a full stop to investigate Somebody in the passenger seat reached down and grabbed the toolbox off the ground. And then the car sped away. And the incident reminded Susan and Michael that not only had their crime been witnessed by that teenager at the fruit stand, but also by the driver of the car who stopped to pick up the toolbox. Yeah. And now it was only a matter of time before somebody called the police.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

Unbeknownst to them, somebody already had. While John was trying to flee the situation, a delivery driver passed the scene and witnessed Michael point the gun and shoot Hellier in the head.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

Michael and Susan had not made it more than a few miles in Hellier's truck when three Heldsberg police patrol cars caught up with them on Highway 101. After hearing an all points bulletin that was put out by the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department, Susan and Michael led them on a wild high speed chase. It changed directions up and down Sonoma and Napa counties, and in time, the Healdsburg officers were joined by officers from the Calistoga, I think it is, and Saint Helena or Helena police departments, as well as officers from the California Highway Patrol. During the chase, one of the officers actually crashed his patrol car. And luckily the two officers were fortunately uninjured. But it just shows you how insane this was.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

After 45 minutes of very dangerous pursuit, Michael pulled the truck off Highway 29 and actually lost control of the wheel. So they crashed into a ditch.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

Which is where they belong.

[Alaina]

I was just gonna say get comfy.

[Ash]

Jumped from the vehicle, exchanged gunfire with the pursuing officers, and then ran off into a nearby vineyard.

[Alaina]

Jesus.

[Ash]

It's insane.

[Alaina]

Holy.

[Ash]

Yeah. Napa county sheriff's deputies eventually caught up with them. It literally took a few minutes. And that was as they were trying to cross a shallow river. And finally, both of them were taken into custody with no further incident.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

Can you imagine? You, like, you just go to work one day and you're like, oh, it's like a Tuesday. It might be a crazy day. You never know. Obviously, as a police officer, what's going to happen. I can't imagine that you wake up just thinking this is gonna.

[Alaina]

Anticipating this batshit crazy stuff is gonna happen to you. Like, no, my God. Gonna come across these two idiots.

[Ash]

Yeah. @ the time of their arrests, Michael and Susan, identified to the. Identified themselves to the authorities as married couple Mike and Michael and Susan Baer.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Ash]

But it did not take long for the authorities to discover that their real names were James Clifford Carson and Susan Thornell Hamilton. What now? While Susan didn't quite Rename herself. She was spelling Susan with a Z, but her real name was spelled with an S. Just.

[Alaina]

Wow. Okay.

[Ash]

She was just being different. Okay. Contrary to what they said, they also were not legally married, but they considered themselves common law husband and wife. In time, pieces of Michael and Susan's past would be unearthed. But those pieces didn't really explain the crimes that they were believed to have committed. Before meeting Susan with an S, Michael lived with his wife and daughter in Arizona.

[Alaina]

He has a daughter.

[Ash]

He has a daughter. And I. I don't name her. I think she has done press, but, like, I don't want to name her. She doesn't want to be named here. So his daughter told a reporter in 2015, when my mom met my father, he was a nice Jewish boy.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

Picture this guy, just a nice Jewish boy.

[Alaina]

Yeah. And look at what he's doing now.

[Ash]

Yeah. Yeah. When his daughter was just four years old, I guess Michael started exhibiting strange beliefs and behavior that hinted at possibly an undiagnosed mental illness.

[Alaina]

Clearly. Yeah.

[Ash]

But he never received any treatment, even though I'm sure his wife and his family was urging him to.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But as a result of his increasingly or his increasing instability, the relationship between Michael and his wife started to crumble and they ended up divorcing. Michael's daughter said no one could have foreseen this, especially how weird it got. Typically, your Jewish father doesn't convert to Islam, then to some weird religion where they grow pot and kill gays.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

Because that's what they said they were doing.

[Alaina]

And she was four when this all started to happen.

[Ash]

He started displaying strange behavior.

[Alaina]

That's horrible.

[Ash]

And I think his wife was probably like, hey, we gotta figure this out. Like, you gotta talk to somebody.

[Alaina]

But, well, and it's even worse because it's like, at 4. Sorry, I dropped my water bottle. I love everybody at four, you very much. Like, like, no, your parent. You know what I mean? And to have him suddenly turn into a diff. A totally different person and then, like, disappear.

[Ash]

Damn. Well, and before he left her, some weird went down where, like, Susan was a part of her life, which is even scarier. Yeah. Just wait.

[Alaina]

Oh, God.

[Ash]

This girl's mom, though, Michael's ex wife, she knew what was like. She was like, no, we're not.

[Alaina]

Is she a real one?

[Ash]

She's a real one.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Ash]

So not long after splitting with his wife, Michael met Susan Hamilton at a Thanksgiving party, of all places, in 1977. And they very much hit it off. Like Michael. Susan was also married and also living in Arizona. And she, too, had been struggling with mental illness.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

At the time, she was married to a newspaper executive and was raising two children.

[Alaina]

I did not see this.

[Ash]

No. But her life was sidelined by a schizophrenia diagnosis that eventually ended up ruining her marriage. Michael's daughter told the Daily Beast she was living this posh country club lifestyle before she started using LSD and got involved with my father.

[Alaina]

This is the most bizarre thing I have ever heard.

[Ash]

Same, same.

[Alaina]

Like, I did not. I thought these two were always rolled up out of the dirt like this. Like, I thought they were both just rolling through like pig pen.

[Ash]

If you. There's like pictures of Mike I. I couldn't find any of.

[Alaina]

Or.

[Ash]

No, I actually did see one. There's pictures of both of them before, you know, they met each other.

[Alaina]

Oh, I'm looking at him right now.

[Ash]

Took the path they did.

[Alaina]

Absolutely bizarre.

[Ash]

She's literally like. It's like what his daughter said. She's a posh country club girly and he's a nice Jewish boy.

[Alaina]

And also, his daughter is adorable.

[Ash]

Yeah, I saw one photo where she was holding up a picture of them when she was little. It's like heartbreaking.

[Alaina]

Adorable.

[C]

Behind the closed doors of government offices and military compounds, there are hidden stories and buried secrets from the darkest corners of history. From COVID experiments pushing the boundaries of science to operations so secretive they were barely whispered about. Each week on Redacted Declassified Mysteries, we pull back the curtain on these hidden histories. 100% true and verified, verifiable stories that expose the shadowy underbelly of power. Consider Operation Paperclip, where former Nazi scientists were brought to America after World War II not as prisoners, but as assets to advance US intelligence during the Cold War. These aren't just old conspiracy theories. They're thoroughly investigated accounts that reveal the uncomfortable truths still shaping our world today. The stories are real. The secret are shocking. Follow Declassified Mysteries with me, Luke Lamanna, on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts to listen ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app.

[Ash]

So despite the end of their respective marriages, Michael tried to maintain a connection with his daughter, while Susan had no interest in her and actively tried to drive a wedge between Michael and his old life.

[Alaina]

Honestly, fuck her. Susan sucks ass.

[Ash]

She does.

[Alaina]

So does Michael.

[Ash]

But Susan, this is horrible. During their last visit in Arizona, Susan actually attacked Michael's daughter.

[Alaina]

What?

[Ash]

His daughter recalled. I asked her to rub my back before I went to bed, and she scratched my back. And she said she was going to get the demon out of Me. But more frightening to me than the injury was what she was saying. You can fool your father, but I know you're the devil and I'm gonna get this demon out of you. She's a little girl, and she asked.

[Alaina]

This woman to rub her back before.

[Ash]

Bedtime because she's probably like, I'm sure she missed her mom or she was uncomfortable and she's like, can you just rub my back while I fall asleep? And this woman, it attacks her and tells her she has a demon inside of her.

[Alaina]

Susan and this Michael for bringing this crazy into his child's life. Yes, Em, both.

[Ash]

This poor little girl like you kids believe things, and kids absolutely heart. Like, this poor little girl probably thought she had a demon inside and that.

[Alaina]

She was the devil.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

Like, what the.

[Ash]

That's all. I can't imagine what that would do to a child.

[Alaina]

Yeah, that would be it. I'd be like, you. You're never seeing that child again.

[Ash]

Well, the incident was the last motherfucking straw for the girl's mother, who severed all communication with her husband and effectively went into hiding in order to avoid any future incidents like that.

[Alaina]

But I hate that they had to do that because of him being a complete dick face and her being a dangerous piece of.

[Ash]

Yup, that sucks. Oh, I hate that that happened to her.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But I'm so happy that her mom was like, I'm taking you out of this situation. And how scary for her mom in the 70s, like, and to have to.

[Alaina]

Worry about him, like, appearing somewhere. You have to literally go in hiding because of this.

[Ash]

Yeah. And you know that. That. No, I'm sure she thinks he's dangerous because God only knows what she heard.

[Alaina]

Of course.

[Ash]

And then this woman attacks her daughter. She's probably terrified.

[Alaina]

Oh, my God. Wouldn't be a safe place on earth.

[Ash]

For that woman, Let me tell you.

[Alaina]

I'm telling you.

[Ash]

Not long after Susan's marriage ended, she and Michael left Arizona and they decided to travel to Europe. They were living off of her trust fund. She's a trust fund baby. Shut the up. Susan has a trust fund, everyone. And so they. They go to Europe, they're backpacking, and they're just feeding on each other's increasingly bizarre beliefs and manic energy. They started experimenting with a variety of psychedelic drugs, which further distorted their thinking and exacerbated their shared psychosis. Because this isn't like drug therapy. This is them just dropping lsd all.

[Alaina]

And they're already mentally ill. Like, you.

[Ash]

Need a doctor, you guys.

[Alaina]

And imagine both of them have just abandoned their children. Yeah. He's just like. She had two tripping balls in Europe.

[Ash]

With each other and living off her.

[Alaina]

Trust fund and living off her trust fund while, like, just abandon their families. Yeah. What absolute pieces of shit they were now.

[Ash]

In time, they developed an ideology and belief system very unique to their existence. But they drew heavily on a very poor understanding of Islam and other world religions. Like we said earlier, they just bastardized a bunch of different religions.

[Alaina]

Cherry picked what they wanted.

[Ash]

Exactly. To just, you know, be strange.

[Alaina]

They made up their own religion.

[Ash]

They did, yeah.

[Alaina]

They just took things from other religions.

[Ash]

Exactly. And they took things and like twisted.

[Alaina]

Them and made them very dangerous.

[Ash]

Dangerous and awful.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

To Susan and Michael, they were warriors for Allah who strove to live a life of purity.

[Alaina]

Purity.

[Ash]

Question mark.

[Alaina]

Is the purity in the room with us? Where the has the purity been in all this?

[Ash]

Not here. And they said they were committed.

[Alaina]

They were communicated, to be honest.

[Ash]

They were committed to eradicated. Eradicating the world of demons and witches who they believed walked freely among the unsuspecting people of the world.

[Alaina]

Wow. I'm not really sure how to respond to that.

[Ash]

That's good. That means I think you're normal.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

When they returned to the US from Europe, they lived a somewhat nomadic lifestyle, traveling up and down the California coast and into bordering states. They were trafficking drugs and just living off the grid. Yeah.

[Alaina]

It's abandoning their kids and just living off the grid.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

Fun.

[Ash]

And it was this lifestyle that put them into contact with people like Karen, like Clark and John.

[Alaina]

All people who did not need to ever come in contact with these pieces of.

[Ash]

No, not at all. While the press dug deeper into Michael and Susan's backgrounds, the authorities did their best to get any information out of the couple. But they would not budge. Both were being held without bail in the Sonoma County Jail for the murder of John Hellier at this point. But they refused to speak to investigators about themselves or the crimes that they were accused of. Of committing. During their arraignment in late January. It gets super bizarre. Their trial in there.

[Alaina]

It gets more bizarre.

[Ash]

Yeah. Their pre trial and their trial is so bizarre. During their arraignment in late January, Michael declared that he and Susan were, quote, political prisoners.

[Alaina]

No.

[Ash]

And were victims of a, quote, conspiracy to deprive them of their right to a public trial.

[Alaina]

False.

[Ash]

Incorrect. The arraignment was repeatedly derailed by outbursts, including an hour long delay after Susan angrily opposed the presence of her public defender. Her public defender. She told the judge, I won't let that man near me. He is not my attorney. He will never be my attorney. My husband's attorney is my attorney.

[Alaina]

Whoa.

[Ash]

Incorrect. The arraignment of Susan Michael Carson was, for those involved, the first glimpse into a long journey ahead of them as far as a trial went. Nearly every statement made by their respective attorneys or even the judge was met with outrage, mostly from Susan, who demanded that they be tried together and even went as far as to threaten to starve herself until that demand was met.

[Alaina]

So just let her.

[Ash]

Exactly. When the judge insisted that they be evaluated by a psychiatrist, Susan again reacted with defiance and told the judge, doctors. We don't do doctors. They are like swear words to us. We do not have diminished capacity. We are perfectly sane.

[Alaina]

Debatable, debatable, debatable, debatable. And I love doctors. That's like a swear word. It's like, wow.

[Ash]

I'm also like, I love that doctors are like a swear word to you, which, like a swear word is bad. But you're full blown murderers.

[Alaina]

Yeah. Like straight up murderers.

[Ash]

Like you kill people.

[Alaina]

Like, kill and plan to get away with it murderers and plan the murder ahead of time. Like you are murderers.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Susan and Michael's antics in and out of the courtroom obviously had the press and all. They all watched and waited for any new updates in the case. And as it unfolded in the months that followed, when they showed up for a preliminary hearing in early March, Susan and Michael stood next to each other in matching maroon jail jumpsuits just whispering and giggling like children.

[Alaina]

And they've killed people.

[Ash]

Killed people.

[Alaina]

Remember that?

[Ash]

Killed people.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And this is a preliminary hearing. And they're like, lol.

[Alaina]

So funny.

[Ash]

I hate it. I hate it so much. When Judge Gary and Antolini threatened to sanction both of them for their disruptive behavior, Michael shouted, long live the ira. Death to the queen. And was immediately removed from the courtroom.

[Alaina]

I mean, now you're just saying shit.

[Ash]

You're just being disruptive. Despite their obvious mental illness, there was no denying that they both enjoyed being in the spotlight, and they very much sought the attention of the press whenever they could get it. Yeah, they look and they made provocative statements on purpose to get their attention. For example, when they. They complained to a San Francisco journalist that they weren't getting enough coverage in the San Francisco press, their statements only strengthened the investigation into their connection to the murder. Of course, they're like, maybe we did this.

[Alaina]

Yeah, like, I want more attention. And it's like when you see, like real mental illness, it's so different from this. Like this is clearly mental illness. I'm not saying they're not mentally ill, but I'm saying a lot of this is attention seeking behavior. And it's like. And a lot of that is sane thinking behavior.

[Ash]

Yes, 90%, I would say. By the end of April, they had started reaching out to various journalists.

[Alaina]

I mean that's not.

[Ash]

Yeah, they're reaching out to various journalists around the state and they hoped that they could use the attention of the press to promote their religious beliefs. That's the other thing.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

By then, Michael and Susan had confessed to the reporters that although they were charged with only one murder, they had in fact killed three people. They full fully said that. And they said it was for religious reasons, quote unquote.

[Alaina]

Can you sitting there saying it's for religious reasons.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

You killed someone for religious reasons.

[Ash]

I'm like.

[Alaina]

And then you're trying to convert people to your religion.

[Ash]

What about thou shall not kill?

[Alaina]

Yeah, that's apparently not part of theirs.

[Ash]

Hello.

[Alaina]

Yeah, they left that one out.

[Ash]

Like I said, cherry picked.

[Alaina]

Exactly.

[Ash]

And this is just awful. According to Michael, witchcraft, homosexuality and abortion are all causes for death. And they were only following all his orders when they carried out their crimes.

[Alaina]

What does it say about abandoning your whole family or hurting a child on purpose and telling them that you were going to remove the devil out of them physically?

[Ash]

They didn't pick that part.

[Alaina]

That wasn't in there.

[Ash]

No, not in there. Not. But special.

[Alaina]

Being gay, an abortion. Yeah, let's do that.

[Ash]

Totally. I'm also like, that's weird because no one you met seemed to have like. I didn't. That wasn't part of any of the story.

[Alaina]

Yeah, I didn't see any of it.

[Ash]

So. What?

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

In May, Michael and Susan held a press conference where they confessed to killing Karen Barnes, Clark Stevens and John Hellyer. Michael told reporters Susan ordered each killing. As Susan sat beside him and just smiled widely, she was like, yeah, I did.

[Alaina]

Oh my God. I have. I want to punch her in the face. Same like, violence is not the answer, but I want to punch this woman in the face.

[Ash]

Violence is not the answer, it's the desire.

[Alaina]

That's true.

[Ash]

According to Michael, Clark Stevens had, quote, abused Susan sexually. Nope, no evidence of that. And he said therefore he had to be killed. And despite their confession, when they appeared before a judge in mid May for the murder of Karen Barnes, both entered a plea of not guilty. Like you.

[Alaina]

I'm sorry, what?

[Ash]

Can we rewind to the press conference you held?

[Alaina]

Roll tape.

[Ash]

Eventually they Would both rescind those confessions to all three murders and pleaded not guilty to all of the charges.

[Alaina]

Awesome.

[Ash]

It seems like obviously the courtroom antics and outrageous statements were an attempt to strengthen the plea deal of diminished capacity for sure.

[Alaina]

But I. I didn't seem to work.

[Ash]

Yeah, it didn't seem to work at all. They were unsuccessful. In January 1984, Michael Carson was deemed mentally competent to stand trial in San Francisco for the murder of Karen Barnes. Judge Claude paraso told a reporter, he is articulate. This court cannot find that he's incompetent. And indicated that Michael had agreed to cooperate with his defense attorney. So it's like, it's also like once they realized that they weren't going to get any kind of plea, they slowed.

[Alaina]

It all down, of course.

[Ash]

In May, Michael and Susan went on trial before judge parraso and a packed courthouse. As had been the case up to that point, the trial was constantly derailed by the defendants wild and usually incoherent statements. It featured several strange witnesses, including Maude Reinerston, a so called good witch. That's.

[Alaina]

Oh, there's those.

[Ash]

Hi. Yeah. You never heard of Glinda?

[Alaina]

No.

[Ash]

Maude was hired by the defense to provide expert testimony on the subject of witchcraft.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Ash]

She explained white magic has to do with the. With working with the forces of nature to heal, to create, and to make the most of your life. But on the other hand, she explained, black magic involves manipulating people by controlling their will.

[Alaina]

This is very west Memphis three. When they had the guy who had a mail order degree on the stand.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alaina]

And made him say it several times. That he had a mail order degree that anybody could get.

[Ash]

And then they still somehow convicted all three of them.

[Alaina]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

Interesting. On June 5, 1984, Michael and Susan were both found guilty of the murder of Karen Barnes, who they explained they killed with a frying pan in the kitchen after they claimed she, quote, used witchcraft to SAP Susan of her health, power and beauty. Nah, I said interesting. In their statement to the press following the verdict, Susan's defense attorney said, it's difficult to get a jury to believe in a defense of witchcraft.

[Alaina]

I mean, yeah.

[Ash]

I'm like, are you sitting there saying that Karen was a witch?

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Is that what you're saying?

[Alaina]

Are you like, implying that?

[Ash]

That's definitely being implied. At the sentencing hearing a month later, Michael and Susan were Both sentenced to 25 years to life. And when asked if they had anything to say on their own behalf, Susan launched into a 40 minute rant where she paced the floor and flailed her arms wildly and she screamed to the judge, I'm crying, so I don't care.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Ash]

What?

[Alaina]

They let her talk for 40 minutes.

[Ash]

Yeah. I also was like, that's interesting, because they don't always. Michael was similarly remorseless and told the judge, I killed a witch because it's the law of God to do so. When you're first attacked, I tell you that I did a righteous act to save the life of my wife. Someday the Lord will set me free. The Lord God will set me free.

[Alaina]

Spoiler alert, he won't.

[Ash]

In the months that followed, Michael and Susan were subsequently tried for the murders of Clark Stevens and John Hellyer in very similarly disruptive trials. And they were both found guilty and given additional sentences of 25 years to life for each murder.

[Alaina]

I love that.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

I love when they do that.

[Ash]

Oh, it's great.

[Alaina]

I love it.

[Ash]

After the verdict in the 1985 trial for the murder of John Hellyer, Michael told reporters that he had been quote, unquote, coerced into not. Into not taking the stand in his own defense, and that ultimately the entire trial was unfair.

[Alaina]

Babe, if you had taken the stand in your own dispense, it would have gone a lot worse for you.

[Ash]

Yeah, we would have been. You would have gotten the same outcome. I would have built a new prison.

[Alaina]

Just to house you like that. You would have been bad.

[Ash]

In 2015, Michael and Susan Carson both became eligible for parole. After that, federal order dictated. California's prison system had become overcrowded, and the state needed to consider releasing elderly prisoners or those unlikely to reoffend. And at that point, Michael and Susan were both elderly. The families of the victims were completely outraged by the fact that their loved ones killers might be released. But they were soon relieved when they learned that both were denied good. Karen Barnes sister Lisa told a reporter, I'm so thrilled. I was terrified that they may let this crazy monster out doing due to her being a little old lady, because.

[Alaina]

It'S like, do you think her becoming a little old lady is going to change the fact that she's a crazy, dangerous bitch? No, she's just going to be an old, crazy, dangerous bitch, and we don't need that because that's even more manipulative.

[Ash]

Exactly. And she was involved in the killings, but a lot of times it was her manipulating Michael into doing things.

[Alaina]

Exactly. So she. She's dangerous.

[Ash]

She doesn't need to do anything. She can just manipulate somebody else to do her bidding.

[Alaina]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ash]

At the time, neither Susan or Michael seemed particularly interested in parole. And Susan didn't even bother showing up for her parole hearings. In 20. In June of 2015, Michael canceled his parole hearing.

[Alaina]

He was busy.

[Ash]

He told the. The committee that he refused to abandon his religious beliefs.

[Alaina]

Oh, he's still on it.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alaina]

I feel like they would have gotten rid of that.

[Ash]

Nope. In a letter to officials at Mule Creek prison, he wrote, I know this is absurd. No one is going to parole me because I will not and have not renounced my beliefs.

[Alaina]

You're right.

[Ash]

In 2020, he became eligible for parole again. And the victim's family spoke out against him with a unified voice. This time, they were also joined by his own daughter. Wow. Who also objected to his release. She said, I truly believe that just because he's old does not make him sick.

[Alaina]

Yes, you are right.

[Ash]

With his lack of regret and his views and the hate he's filled with and his. In his demented mind. I think in a year, In a year or less, someone else will be dead. Yes.

[Alaina]

Yes, I agree.

[Ash]

For his own daughter to say that, yeah, that. That holds a lot of weight. Ultimately, his bid for parole was rejected. In the years since their arrest, they have been suspected of various violent crimes committed in and around California during the 70s and early 80s.

[Alaina]

Oh, I bet there's plenty.

[Ash]

There's got to be. But there's never been sufficient evidence produced that could actually link them to those crimes. But they are very much suspected. For more. As of today, they both remain incarcerated and they won't be eligible for parole again until 2030, which is not really that far away.

[Alaina]

I wonder how old they are now.

[Ash]

Yep. 74 and 83.

[Alaina]

Keep them in there.

[Ash]

Keep them in there forever. To say, scary, scary cases.

[Alaina]

Really scary.

[Ash]

Like a lot of these people were good people and like, nobody deserves to be killed.

[Alaina]

No. You know, that's the thing. And especially the way that it all happened. It's awful.

[Ash]

They like smeared these people's names too. They said that Karen was a witch, that Clark was gonna sexually abuse Susan. They said the same thing about John. They said that he actually had.

[Alaina]

Yep.

[Ash]

It's unbelievable.

[Alaina]

Yeah, they're disgusting.

[Ash]

Yeah, a while.

[Alaina]

They are disgusting. And I'm happy that they're still gonna continue to rot.

[Ash]

Me too.

[Alaina]

Because they don't seem like they have any remorse either.

[Ash]

No, they don't at all. And they still believe the same things.

[Alaina]

Yeah, they haven't. They still are hate filled bags of pus. So it's like, just leave them in there.

[Ash]

They are bags of puss.

[Alaina]

They are.

[Ash]

You're right.

[Alaina]

Bye bitches.

[Ash]

Well, with all that being said, we.

[Alaina]

Hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird.

[Ash]

But it's so weird that any of this because ew, don't be a bag filled with pus.

[Alaina]

Don't do it.

[Ash]

Yuck.

[Alaina]

Sa Sa.

[Ash]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.