Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)

Summary

Summary of "Morbid" Podcast Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)

Podcast Information:

• Title: Morbid
• Host/Authors: Elena and Ash from the Morbid Network | Wondery
• Episode: 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
• Release Date: January 27, 2025
• Description: Morbid is a true crime and creepy history podcast that delves into all things spooky, hosted by an autopsy technician and a hairstylist, blending thorough research with humor.

---

Introduction

The episode begins with casual banter between the hosts, Elena and Ash, discussing their restless nights and a spooky TikTok video from the Appalachian Mountains. This lighthearted introduction sets the tone before diving into the chilling story of Rodney Alcala.

Rodney Alcala’s Early Life and Background

Rodney Alcala, born on August 23, 1943, in San Antonio, Texas, exhibited no early warning signs of his future crimes. Described as a respectful and intelligent child, he excelled academically, leaving teachers with no concerns about his behavior.

Notable Quote:

Elena: "His teachers said he was among the most intelligent children in the class." [23:29]

Military Service and Psychological Decline

After high school, Alcala joined the US Army, following in his older brother's footsteps. In 1963, after his grandmother's death and his father's abrupt departure, Alcala began showing signs of psychological distress, leading to his admission to a military psychiatric facility. Despite these challenges, he maintained a high IQ of around 140.

Notable Quote:

Ash: "He was exceedingly intelligent, with an IQ of around 140." [23:29]

Early Crimes: Morgan Rowan’s Assault

In 1965, Alcala attacked Morgan Rowan, a young woman he encountered at a teen nightclub. Although she managed to escape his initial assault, Morgan later met Alcala again in 1968, leading to a second, more violent attack where she narrowly escaped with the help of friends.

Key Points:

• First Assault (1965): Morgan Rowan was assaulted by Alcala but survived.
• Second Assault (1968): During her going-away party, Morgan was forcibly taken by Alcala to his apartment, where she was brutally assaulted but escaped thanks to other friends' intervention.

Notable Quotes:

Ash: "Morgan was assaulted in a big way." [25:25]

Elena: "I feel like you're actually... We actually live in the house, and we never leave." [51:53]

The Dating Game Appearance

In 1978, Alcala appeared on the popular game show The Dating Game. Despite being a convicted sexual predator with prior charges for sexual assault and attempted murder, he was able to charm the audience and win a date with Cheryl Bradshaw. However, Cheryl’s instincts led her to cancel the date after meeting him backstage, unknowingly sparing herself from Alcala’s deadly intentions.

Key Points:

• Alcala's background as a convicted sexual predator was not thoroughly vetted by the show's producers.
• Cheryl Bradshaw sensed something was off and chose to cancel the date, escaping what could have been a tragic evening.

Notable Quotes:

Ash: "She had to applaud her gut instinct." [13:12]

Elena: "Thank goodness she did." [13:13]

Subsequent Crimes and Escaping Authorities

After his Dating Game appearance, Alcala continued his spree, committing multiple murders across California. His intelligence and charm allowed him to evade capture for years, even relocating and assuming aliases to distance himself from his past.

Key Points:

• Serial Killings: By the time of his appearance on The Dating Game, Alcala had already killed several women and continued to do so until his eventual arrest.
• Aliases and Relocation: Alcala used aliases like John Berger to infiltrate communities and avoid detection.

Notable Quotes:

Ash: "He flew under the radar and ended up on the Dating Game." [23:08]

Elena: "That's the craziest part to me." [13:02]

The Tragic Case of Tali Shapiro

In September 1968, Tali Shapiro, an eight-year-old girl, was brutally assaulted by Alcala outside her family's temporary home at the Chateau Marmont in Los Angeles. Her survival and subsequent recovery were aided by the heroic actions of Donald Haynes, a passerby who sensed something was wrong and alerted the authorities.

Key Points:

• Attack Details: Tali was assaulted and left in critical condition but survived after months of rehabilitation.
• Heroic Intervention: Donald Haynes followed Alcala’s car and reported suspicious behavior to the police, leading to the rescue of Tali.

Notable Quotes:

Ash: "He's a monster." [36:42]

Elena: "I can't even." [36:49]

Investigation and Steve Hodel’s Role

Detective Steve Hodel, son of George Hodel (a prime suspect in the Black Dahlia case), took a keen interest in Alcala’s activities. As Alcala continued his murders, his façade of normalcy made him a challenging target for law enforcement, allowing him to continue his crimes until his eventual capture.

Key Points:

• Steve Hodel's Involvement: His background and determination played a crucial role in the investigation of Alcala.
• Alcala’s Arrest: Despite his efforts to remain undetected, a combination of witness testimonies and persistent investigation led to Alcala’s eventual arrest.

Notable Quotes:

Ash: "He flew under the radar and ended up on the Dating Game." [23:08]

Elena: "What a piece of..." [17:30]

Conclusion and Teaser for Part 2

The episode concludes with the capture of Alcala by FBI agents, highlighting his expressionless demeanor and refusal to discuss his crimes. The hosts tease the next part of the series, which will delve into Alcala’s arrest, conviction, and eventual release.

Notable Quotes:

Ash: "Alcala looked expressionless at Hodel and said, 'I don't want to talk about Rodney Alcala and what he did.'" [56:34]

Ash: "We're going to talk about his arrest, a conviction, and his eventual release in part two." [57:08]

---

Key Takeaways

• Rodney Alcala’s Dual Life: His ability to maintain a charming and intelligent facade despite his heinous crimes.
• Importance of Intuition: Cheryl Bradshaw’s gut feeling that led her to cancel the date, potentially saving her life.
• Heroism of Ordinary People: Donald Haynes’ intervention was pivotal in saving Tali Shapiro’s life.
• Challenges in Serial Killer Investigations: Alcala’s intelligence and manipulation made him a formidable opponent for law enforcement.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Elena: "His teachers said he was among the most intelligent children in the class." [23:29]
2. Ash: "He was exceedingly intelligent, with an IQ of around 140." [23:29]
3. Ash: "Morgan was assaulted in a big way." [25:25]
4. Elena: "Thank goodness she did." [13:13]
5. Ash: "She's a monster." [36:42]
6. Ash: "He flew under the radar and ended up on the Dating Game." [23:08]
7. Elena: "What a piece of..." [17:30]
8. Ash: "Alcala looked expressionless at Hodel and said, 'I don't want to talk about Rodney Alcala and what he did.'" [56:34]
9. Ash: "We're going to talk about his arrest, a conviction, and his eventual release in part two." [57:08]

---

Stay Tuned: Part 2 of this series will explore Rodney Alcala’s arrest, his trial, and his eventual release, providing deeper insights into one of America’s most notorious serial killers.

Transcript

[Elena]

Hey, weirdos. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about a place where the darkness never ends. Wondery. It's like stepping into a haunted mansion where the floorboards creak. With ad free episodes. And early access to new episodes lurks around every corner. So come join us if you dare. Morbid is available one week early and ad free only on Wondery. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

[Ash]

You're listening to a Morbid network podcast.

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[Ash]

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[Elena]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena.

[Ash]

And I'm Ash.

[Elena]

And this is morbid. It do be sorry I had to swallow like spit before I said that. Cute, apologetic I am.

[Ash]

Okay, okay, Dr. Seuss, I was thinking Yoda. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you just hear that? I just said yada instead of Yoda. Oh, I gotta go. Yada, baby. Yada.

[Elena]

My boy.

[Ash]

Yada, my boy. Yada, yada, yada, yada, yada.

[Elena]

I like that.

[Ash]

I feel delirious today.

[Elena]

Yeah, we didn't get a lot of sleep last night in my house. I'm not really sure why. Like, nothing happened that upset anyone to their degree of not being able to sleep.

[Ash]

Just a restless night.

[Elena]

Restless night for everyone.

[Ash]

I hate that. Not for me.

[Elena]

Yeah, it was like mass hysteria in my house.

[Ash]

I don't know what happened to him. I mean, you have kids. That's just like life with children every day. I. Last night had a terrifying moment that, like, nothing became of it, but it's pretty underwhelming. But I'm trying to.

[Elena]

It's.

[Ash]

Let me. Let me talk about it. I'm trying. I'm trying to sleep with the TV off because. Because all my life, my entire life, I have slept with the TV on and it's like, not great for you. And I do notice a better sleep with it off. So. Yeah, I've been trying to do that. But before I went to sleep, not last night, even the other night, I saw this TikTok from the Appalachian Mountains of the. And it's. I don't know, like, who knows what's real and what's not anymore?

[Elena]

This will do it.

[Ash]

This will fucking do it.

[Elena]

Yeah, this will do it. As soon as you said the Appalachian TikTok, I said, oh, yeah.

[Ash]

Have you ever seen you guys out there? Cause I already talked to Elena about.

[Elena]

This and I confirmed I have.

[Ash]

Have you ever seen those videos where people are like, oh, my God, just sitting in my bedroom and like I see these creatures in my backyard staring at me and it's like these like terrifying, almost like dementor, but like scarier looking things with like long black hair and like white nightgown sort of. Or like maybe just like white skin. Like abyss skin sort of abyss skin. A biscuit.

[Elena]

A biscuit. You know, I like that.

[Ash]

Just floating and like a biscuit in a bath, it's just like that, but like, just staring at you like they're gonna pretty much kill you.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So I got one of like a couple of those tiktoks and Drew. It's our. It's our cute little thing. At night we lay in bed and we scroll TikTok. But that was a horrible one to end on. And then in the middle of the night, I woke up and it was, of course. Ready. Ready. Say it with me.

[Elena]

3:00Am Oh, 3:00am Sorry.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's fine.

[Elena]

I was like, pitch black.

[Ash]

You were like, we didn't prepare this. Sorry again.

[Elena]

I'm tired. I'm not on point.

[Ash]

It was 3am of course, and I. It was so. And it pitch black. So you were on the right thing. And then I just was convinced that there was going to be those ladies in my room and I got so scared and I woke Drew up and I was like, give me the clicker.

[Elena]

I don't blame you on that one.

[Ash]

Now I'm just. I was on the treadmill this morning, terrified that they were behind me. There's like two empty rooms behind me, which I don't love when I'm on my treadmill.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I need to like, move it so there's a wall behind me.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Anyway, you don't want empty space. I'm paranoid about Appalachia, you know, Aren't we all?

[Elena]

Yeah, I think that's valid. I think people in Appalachia would tell us we're. We're doing the right thing by being paranoid about it.

[Ash]

Let us know.

[Elena]

Because you hear. Even if it's like. Even if it's like, you know, folklore to me is like folklore. It's very interesting. But, man, it'll getcha. It'll getcha. And Appalachia is like just lousy with folklore. Lousy, like the whole like. If you hear. They'll be like. If you hear, you know, a whistle outside, you better get inside. And it's like. And then you'll be like, why?

[Ash]

And they're like, can't tell you.

[Elena]

Can't tell you.

[Ash]

And you're like, ah. And then they're like, that's Johnny Boy.

[Elena]

Scarier.

[Ash]

Johnny Boy here knows why.

[Elena]

And then you're like, johnny Boy, why? And he's like, I've been sworn to secrecy.

[Ash]

He actually just shakes his head because he doesn't even talk anymore. Yeah, that's after his ordeal.

[Elena]

You're like, why don't you talk? And he's like, I can't tell you.

[Ash]

He just shrugs at you.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And that's it.

[Elena]

Appalachia.

[Ash]

And he throws away the key.

[Elena]

And here's the thing. I respect it.

[Ash]

I respect it so deeply.

[Elena]

I respect it so hard.

[Ash]

But you know where you're not gonna find me?

[Elena]

Appalachia.

[Ash]

No, baby.

[Elena]

No, baby. Oh.

[Ash]

I'm even like freaked out now. Just that we talked about it and it's the middle of the day.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Anyway, I don't think I'll be sleeping with the TV off anymore.

[Elena]

Yeah, I mean, you gave.

[Ash]

I really tried.

[Elena]

You gave Healthy sleeping habits a try. And it didn't work out.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. Also, just another thing about me. Sorry, I'm really self serving lately.

[Elena]

Take it back.

[Ash]

You know, whatever. You know that. Did you talk about that alarm clock on here that we were talking about together or was that a private conversation?

[Elena]

I know we had A private conversation about it.

[Ash]

We have so many conversations. And I'm like, which one was private and which one was on air?

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

It's not private. It's just. She found this really cool alarm clock.

[Elena]

Yes. Can I tell you all about it? Do you mind if I encroach on you?

[Ash]

No, no. I motioned at you. You did. It's your discovery.

[Elena]

So I'm telling you guys, I've been researching, like, sunrise alarm clocks for months and months and months. They just intrigued me. The idea. It's. The idea is that you are waking up not to, like, and like, jolting you out of deep sleep. Instead, what sunrise alarm clocks do is they have a warm sunrise effect that happens like a light, and it slowly rises and gets brighter, like a sunrise. And also you can set it to, like, birds chirping, which is beautiful. Or like a bubbling brook or something. You know what I mean? Like something very. Just very calm, peaceful. And I was intrigued by this idea because it tricks. It basically, like, makes your circadian rhythm go into, like a lighter sleep for a bit, and then it will wake you when out of that lighter sleep. So when you wake up, you feel more rested because it's a more jolt.

[Ash]

Way to wake up.

[Elena]

Exactly. And so I was intrigued by it. I was reading all this stuff about it and I was like, you know what? I'm going to give one a try because I really fucking hate waking up to a jarring alarm. And I was waking up, like, pissed. So, like, I immediately, like, fuck this. So I tried it and I got the Phillips one and it was like a Christmas birthday present to myself. I was like, let's do this. Let's wake up with the goddamn sun. And so.

[Ash]

She's natural. I'm natural, guys.

[Elena]

It fucking works.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And I'm telling you, it is the, like, most refreshed and calm I have ever woken up in my life. And I've done it for, like, almost a week now. It is lovely.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You just wake up and you don't know why you're waking up because you don't hear anything.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And then when you do hear something, it's just birds tweeting.

[Ash]

You know what? That must be great. I wouldn't know. Yeah, I wouldn't know.

[Elena]

Why wouldn't you know?

[Ash]

I got one. Yeah. And I set it all up last night, but my dumb house didn't realize that I set it up in military time.

[Elena]

Oh, I did that too, at first. How do I change it? I can show you how to change.

[Ash]

I need. I need you to tell me how to change it, because I set it. I said.

[Elena]

I said.

[Ash]

I don't know why I just said it like that. Leave it in. I said it and I made it, you know, 9pm because that's the time it was.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And then when I woke up at 3am and was like, oh, God, there's an Appalachian woman in my room. It was like, 15:00. And I was like, what? I was so confused.

[Elena]

You're like, wait, there's an eldritch horror in my world.

[Ash]

And then you're like, and it's 15:00.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

I was like, I'm in an alternate universe. But. But at 3am I wasn't gonna. I. You know, I came to after. I was like, alternate universe. I was like, oh, military time. Don't know how to do that. And I also was like, I'm not fixing this problem at 3am so I just set my regular stupid alarm on my phone and woke to like, da da da da da da da da.

[Elena]

Was angry.

[Ash]

It was angry.

[Elena]

I can teach you how to take it out of military time, but if you ever need to tell military time, you just subtract two. So 15 o'clock would be like, you take from the five. So five, three, two. It's three o'clock.

[Ash]

Oh, you know who's told me that 740 bajillion times? Drew.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And every time I come across military time, I don't remember that.

[Elena]

I. The only reason I know why to how to use it is when I was taking criminal justice classes and they made you do, like, fake police reports and they would make you do it in military time.

[Ash]

Yeah. Here's the thing, though. I don't want to do math. I just want to know what time it is.

[Elena]

That was my problem, was I looked over and I realized it was military time before I went to bed, and I was like, oh, I'm not doing math in the middle of the night. I was like, no, no, I need to just set. And I figured out how. I'll help you.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's. It's a little bit complicated, but I, you know, I'm looking forward to waking up with the sun.

[Elena]

It's worth it.

[Ash]

In my own time.

[Elena]

I'm telling you guys, it's very worth it. It has changed my wake up feelings.

[Ash]

I'm excited. We'll talk. You know, we'll have a private conversation.

[Elena]

And maybe we'll forget we had that.

[Ash]

Yeah, we'll get there. We'll have it again, low key. We can we can get into it now. I was. I was putting it off a little bit because we are covering. If you, you know, have clicked on this episode, you know, that we're covering Rodney Alcala, the Dating Game killer. Yeah. I had a very surface knowledge of this case. Like. And when I tell you. So surface, it was barely even, you.

[Elena]

Know, I think a lot of people do.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And myself included.

[Ash]

Yeah. So I saw, you know, that movie, and I was like, oh, cool. Like, that's an interesting case. I'd like to cover that. So I told Dave, and Dave was like, are you sure?

[Elena]

And I said, yeah, we should have known then.

[Ash]

We should have known then. It's obviously a case that should be told, because these people deserve to have their story told. Of course, it is brutal. It is very gruesome. A lot of these women were unfortunately raped. So we're gonna.

[Elena]

That.

[Ash]

That's something we're gonna be talking about. So I am gonna break this up, I think, into three parts.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Just, you know, it makes it a little easier to digest, and there's a lot more parts, and there's a lot to cover.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So this is going to be part one. Part one, I think, is definitely going to be a little bit shorter than parts two and three, but it kind of sets the. Sets the scene. So let's start even somewhat kind of in the middle, I would say. And a lot of people will know this as the Dating Game killer case. So that's what we're starting.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

When Cheryl Bradshaw appeared on the popular game show the dating game in 1978, she was very charmed by bachelor number one, Rodney Alcala. And by the end of the episode, she had actually chosen to pick him as her date. But just minutes after the episode finished taping, she actually met him in person backstage, and she was immediately uncomfortable and actually quickly contacted producers of the show to cancel the date immediately.

[Elena]

This is the craziest part. To me, it was just a gut.

[Ash]

Instinct she had, and it just. I don't know what happened during that conversation, but something struck her, and she. She went with her gut, which you have to applaud.

[Elena]

Thank goodness she did.

[Ash]

Mm. She called the contestant coordinator, Ellen Metzger, I believe is how you say her name, the day after filming. And she said, ellen, I can't go out with this guy. There's weird vibes that are coming off of him. He's very strange. I'm not comfortable. Is that going to be a problem? Luckily, Ellen was like, nope, is not going to be an issue.

[Elena]

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do.

[Ash]

She said, trust your gut, girl. That's fine. Now, what Cheryl Bradshaw didn't know at that time was that in canceling the date, she had narrowly avoided spending an evening in the company of one of America's most notorious serial killers. At the time of his appearance on the dating game in 1978, Rodney Alcala was already a convicted sexual predator. Which just goes to show you, you know what work went into vetting people back then.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's what's so horrifying.

[Ash]

Yeah. He had already served time for sexual assault and also had avoided a charge of attempted murder on a small technicality and was able to be a contestant on this show.

[Elena]

That's unbelievable.

[Ash]

Luckily, times have changed.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

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[Ash]

Just waiting to be filled in 2025.

[Unknown]

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[Ash]

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[Ash]

Great place to start.

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[Ash]

After his arrest, though, investigators would learn that by the time he did appear on the game show, he was also a killer. He had killed many women. At that point in the year that followed, Alcala would go on to murder several other women until he was finally caught and luckily, I'll tell you right at the top, convicted for his crimes.

[Elena]

Thank goodness.

[Ash]

Ultimately, he was found guilty of eight murders and various other crimes. But he is suspected of many other murders. Some people believe as many as a hundred or possibly even more.

[Elena]

Jesus.

[Ash]

Yeah, he is vicious. Luckily he's dead, thank goodness. I just. You sometimes you got to give you.

[Elena]

That rest in distress.

[Ash]

Rest in distress. You absolute piece of.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

So let's go back to his, you know, roots, I guess.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Even though we don't want to. Rodrigo Rodney Alcala Bucor, I believe is how you say, his last name. He was born August 23, 1943 in San Antonio, Texas. He was one of four children born to Anna Maria Gutierrez and Raul Akala Boucour. By all accounts, the family enjoyed a pretty normal middle class life in San Antonio. All of the Alcala children attended Catholic school and Rodney did really well in school. He worked really hard. He maintained really great grades, like no warning signs. Really. Yeah. None of Rodney's teachers would ever remember him being a problem student. Actually, on the contrary, they said that he was considered respectful and kind and they all said that he was among the most intelligent children in the class. Wow. Crazy. Now, in 1951, Rodney's grandmother did sadly become terminally ill and she wanted to return to Mexico to live out her final years. So the family packed up everything they owned and they moved across the border. Despite the obvious differences, you know, in culture and everything, it seems like life in Mexico was pretty happy for the Alcala family, at least for the first few years. In 1954, when Rodney was just 11, his grandmother, who he had always been really close to, ended up passing away. And of course, that left a giant hole in the family structure. Yeah, of course, her passing was then soon followed by the very abrupt departure of Rodney's father, who just left the family one day and decided to return to the U.S. oh. Like, he left them with absolutely nothing. He was the provider of the family.

[Elena]

What the hell?

[Ash]

Left them with, like, nowhere to live, Left Anna Maria to figure it all out. And all of those kids were just left without a father.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

And Rodney was 11.

[Elena]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

What is interesting, though, is that obviously, I'm sure these experiences were disruptive to him to some degree and especially all the kids. But for some reason, he seemed pretty unaffected by both of these things. His grandmother dying and his father just leaving the family.

[Elena]

And that's, like, a little concerning in and of itself.

[Ash]

Yeah, definitely.

[Elena]

You want somebody to be, like, traumatized by these things.

[Ash]

No, but you wanted to.

[Elena]

Wholly unaffected is, like, interesting.

[Ash]

Yeah. I feel like you would be concerned.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But it was also a very different time, so it kind of went without notice. After graduating from high school in 1960, Rodney followed his older brother's footsteps, and he decided to join the US Army. So he relocated to boot camp in North Carolina, where he trained as a paratrooper and also took on additional clerical work in 1962, while he was training in North Carolina. North Carolina.

[Elena]

I said that with an accent.

[Ash]

North Carolina. I think that's what happened. And then I was like, don't do that feeling.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

While he was training there, his father actually passed away unexpectedly. Even though, you know, Raul just abandoned the Entire family almost 10 years earlier, at that point, his passing obviously affected his family pretty deeply. But just like with his grandmother's passing years earlier, Rodney seemed pretty unfazed.

[Elena]

Yeah, something's off.

[Ash]

Something's definitely off here. About a year after his father's death is when he really started to exhibit actually unusual behavior. Like, obviously, that's pretty unusual, but it definitely picked up steam. Throughout his life, he had always been respectful. He followed rules and expectations that had been set for him. But that all changed one evening in 1963. His mom was at her home in LA making dinner, and Rodney just showed up unexpectedly at her door, which Was very strange because he had to have hitchhike, hitchhiked more than 3,000 miles from North Carolina.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ash]

Yeah. Which, you know, was strange in and of itself. Yeah. But even more uncharacteristic was the fact that he just up and left the military base with no permission. So he was technically awol.

[Elena]

Yeah, I was going to say that's a very bad thing.

[Ash]

Yeah. So Anna Maria was able to convince her son to turn himself in at the nearest recruitment station. And there he was evaluated by an army psychiatrist, who at that point determined that Rodney was actually in acute psychological distress and had him admitted to the nearest hospital for psychiatric treatment.

[Elena]

Oh, boy.

[Ash]

But this seemed to came. This seemed to have come out of nowhere. Yeah. Initially he was treated just at a regular hospital in San Francisco, but he was soon transferred to a military facility just outside of Irvine, California, and he was admitted for more long in long term inpatient treatment at that point.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Now the triggering event for all of this, like essentially his breakdown is. Remains unclear, but even at that time, there were allegations of sexual misconduct on his part.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So I don't know if he did something, and yeah, I don't know that he necessarily would have regretted it, but maybe it was just overwhelming to have done something awful for the first time. Who knows? But after months of treatment, it became clear that he would no longer be able to keep up with his responsibilities in the military. So In February of 1964, he was given a medical discharge and at that point, a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder listed as chronic severe.

[Elena]

Huh. Wow. So this is like, well documented.

[Ash]

Super well documented. The crazy thing about this case is that there are so many things that are well documented, but he just flies.

[Elena]

Under the radar and ends up on the dating.

[Ash]

Ends up on the dating game, Is able to get off of things on, like, a weird technicality.

[Elena]

Just very strange.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's very odd. After being released from the hospital, though, he returned to his mother's house in Los Angeles and he just started taking courses at California State University like nothing ever happened.

[Elena]

Okay, pal.

[Ash]

Given his past success in school and his IQ, which was reported to be around 140, which is actually right about where the genius category starts.

[Elena]

Huh.

[Ash]

So he was exceedingly intelligent.

[Elena]

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like he's. He hasn't had any trouble in that area.

[Ash]

No, not at all. He had no trouble with his coursework. And after that, he transferred to ucla, where he ended up graduating with a bachelor's degree in 1968.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Now, free of academic obligations, he embarked on the next phase of his life where he had a lot more free time, I think that's where things went.

[Elena]

Not great.

[Ash]

Really wrong. In between being released from the hospital and getting his degree, though, Rodney did attack one of his first documented victims, Morgan Rowan. Fortunately, she was able to escape him not once, but twice.

[Elena]

Really?

[Ash]

Yes. In 1965, she was hanging out in the parking lot of a teen nightclub with some friends, and that's when she first saw Rodney. Nothing seemed off about him in that moment. In fact, she actually thought he was pretty attractive, thought he was charismatic.

[Elena]

So, sorry, how old was he around this time?

[Ash]

I think he's like early 20s, probably 22 at this point.

[Elena]

And he's in a teen nightclub?

[Ash]

Yeah, he's outside of a teen nightclub. Very Rodney.

[Elena]

Just a grown ass man outside a teen nightclub.

[Ash]

Nothing nefarious about that.

[Elena]

Yep. I'm not worried at all at this point. No, just kidding. I'm very worried.

[Ash]

So worried. He should be. So he and Morgan kept making eye contact, and eventually they're two. It seems like maybe he was with a group and she was with a group, and then they kind of like became one group.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And they all started chatting. Eventually the two of them split off from this big group and they made their way into an alley near the club.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Everything very quickly turned. Once Rodney got Morgan away from this group, he immediately got very rough with her. He hit her head against the wall immediately knocking her unconscious. Luckily, before anything could escalate any further, she did come to and was able to scream, which then alerted the owner of the nightclub and his wife, who came running out to help her. But in the shuffle of all that, he was able to run away, like get out of Dodge before anybody even saw him.

[Elena]

What a piece of.

[Ash]

Yeah. So crazy. She. Morgan runs into Rodney again three years later in the summer of 1968.

[Elena]

I hate this.

[Ash]

This was during her going away party. She and her family were actually going to be moving from California to New York. So her friends decided to take her out for one last celebration altogether on the Sunset Strip. There was a big group of people, and while they were out, Rodney happened to join the group by chance because he's living around that area. And Morgan said she immediately felt creeped out. She was very nervous as she and her friend sat in a car waiting to head wherever they were going next. Rodney ended up slipping in behind the wheel and was like, oh, I'll give you guys a ride to wherever you're going next.

[Elena]

Nope.

[Ash]

I don't know if it was like a Situation where maybe somebody was drinking. So he drove that car, but he hopped behind the wheel, and he was like, oh, why don't we all head to my house? Like, I've got some weed. We can all smoke together. And of course, every. Nobody else knows what happened, so they're like, yeah, sure. Sounds good.

[Elena]

Yeah. And it's the time period. Remember?

[Ash]

It's the time period. It's like, these are, like, kind of like hippie people, you know, Everybody's laid back. Everybody's laid back. Exactly. It was California, dude.

[Elena]

Yeah, Hollywood.

[Ash]

So once there with everybody smoking and kind of distracted, he took the opportunity to get Morgan alone and ended up bringing her into his bedroom. It sounds, like, forcibly. And I'm just gonna kind of do an overview of this, just because the details of a lot of this is very intense, like, in most of these cases. So I'm just kind of gonna give, like, an overview.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

He did physically and sexually assault her and actually pulled a knife on her during the attack. Her friends, at a certain point probably heard something and also realized that she was gone for too long. So they started pounding on Rodney's closed and locked door to try to help her. But it actually took one of her friends breaking Rodney's bedroom window and entering that way for Morgan to escape a second time.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

So she escaped him twice, and it.

[Elena]

Was like she had to go through a lot to escape him.

[Ash]

Yeah, she was assaulted in a big way.

[Elena]

Like, he's very, very aggressive.

[Ash]

He's super aggressive.

[Elena]

Oh, that's awful.

[Ash]

Now, she didn't end up reporting this attack because her family was leaving for New York the next day. She was overall just too scared. And like, we were saying, these are, like, kind of like hippie people. She was saying she didn't feel like she was going to be believed.

[Elena]

I was gonna say. And they'd probably just be like, well, you went to the house, like, especially in that time. I mean, they would do that now. But even more so, they'd be like, well, you went to the house and you were smoking weed, and you were like, you know, I mean, it would all be hurtful.

[Ash]

It would be very much you yourself in this situation.

[Elena]

What do you want us to do?

[Ash]

She didn't. And even, like, you should never. That should never be the case.

[Elena]

No, don't be.

[Ash]

But sadly, she. She was terrified after this. She said she slept in bed with her parents after this. She. Once they moved to New York, and then she later learned, you know, a lot of different crimes that he committed and carried a Lot of guilt for not reporting him.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Which it's like, girl, that is not on you. He is the monster.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

Now, this next attack is on a young girl who's 8 years old. So again, it's a, it's brutal. And I'm just gonna give you an overview of it.

[Elena]

Thank you.

[Ash]

So just three weeks later, a little past 8am on the morning of September 25, 1968, eight year old Tali Shapiro left her family's temporary home at the Chateau Marmont and just started making her way to school.

[Elena]

She's eight.

[Ash]

Eight years old. Like a tiny baby. Unbeknownst to her parents, since they moved to the hotel a few months earlier, Tali had been getting up early and actually walking to her elementary school instead of taking the bus like she was supposed to. It's probably just a fun adventure for her. She obviously didn't know any better. In different time, very different time.

[Elena]

You.

[Unknown]

Sign up for something, you forget about it after the trial period ends, and then you're charged month after month after month after month.

[Ash]

My God.

[Unknown]

The subscriptions are there, but you're not using them. In fact, I just learned that 85% of people have at least one paid subscription going unused each month. I probably had about 472. But thanks to Rocket Money, now I can see all my subscriptions in one place and cancel the ones that I'm not using anymore. And now I'm saving more money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow with your savings. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate to lower your bills for you. They'll automatically scan your bills and find opportunities to save. And then you can ask them to negotiate for you. And they'll deal with customer service so.

[Ash]

You don't have to.

[Unknown]

I hate talking on the phone, but apparently people at Rocket Money don't because they call the people for you and they negotiate to lower your bills. And I love them for that. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million.

[Ash]

Whoa.

[Unknown]

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[Ash]

As she walked to school that morning, though, a car pulled up beside her and she heard the driver say, come on in. I'll give you a ride to school.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

But her parents had advised her many, many times that she was not supposed to talk to strangers. They instilled that in her. So she declined the offer and was like, I'm not supposed to talk to you. Like, leave me alone. But Rodney, because it's Rodney, told her, I'm not a stranger. I know your parents.

[Elena]

Oh my God, this guy.

[Ash]

Yeah. Obviously he did not know Tali's parents, but he had seen her and her parents at the Chateau Marmont because he had also been living there recently.

[Elena]

I hate this so much.

[Ash]

To convince her even more to come with him. He was like, you know what? I actually have a beautiful photo to show you. Like, it won't take any time at all.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

In 1968, Los Angeles, in California in general, had yet to undergo the very dark transformation brought about by the Manson family murders.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So while she knew she wasn't supposed to talk to strangers, Tally Shapiro didn't really get why she wasn't supposed supposed to. The man in the car seemed nice enough, and he knew her parents and even lived in the same hotel as they did. Plus, he said he had a beautiful picture to show her. And she's eight years old.

[Elena]

Yeah, of course. Like, she's a baby.

[Ash]

She's a literal baby.

[Elena]

I mean, that's a baby.

[Ash]

Yeah. So she didn't see anything wrong with getting in his car and going back to his apartment with him and then getting on her way to school. She was already early, remember, because she woke up early to walk as he was sitting at a red light across the street. Hero of the century, good Samaritan Donald Haynes watched the curious exchange between this man in the car and the little girl on the sidewalk. And even though he couldn't hear what was being said, he didn't know what the relationship was between them. Something about this. This whole scene just made him very uncomfortable. He said it was something about the way the girl tried to keep walking and the way the car seemed to follow along slowly, trying to keep her attention.

[Elena]

Oh, that makes me upset that it.

[Ash]

Caught his eye and he was just like, I don't know, something's real off about this. But his focus was broken when the light turned green and the car behind him honked, which, of course, he has to go forward. But as he started to drive away, he watched as the little girl got into the car. And later he would describe feeling in that moment as a kind of sixth sense, or he said, going off one's rocker. Whatever the case, this feeling prompted him to turn his car around and look for the man in that car to see where he was going.

[Elena]

This is an amazing man.

[Ash]

Like, truly good Samaritan of the century.

[Elena]

We need more people like him.

[Ash]

It's the. It's like what we were saying last episode. Yes. See something, Say something. See something. He did something.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So it took him a few minutes, but he soon spotted the vehicle again and actually started following Alcala. Alcala's car a few paces behind and trailed him all the way back to the parking lot at Chateau Marmont. From his vehicle, he watched as Alcala and Tali got out of the car and started walking towards one of the apartments with the little girl following just a few steps behind.

[Elena]

Meanwhile, her parents live in the Chateau Marmont right now.

[Ash]

Yes. She is living there.

[Elena]

He's bringing her back to where she lives.

[Ash]

Yes. So that's why she's like, there's nothing wrong with this. He knows my parents. He's a neighbor. And obviously the fact that they both lived in the same place added to the fact that she was. Or added to the. The, you know, story of I know your parents.

[Elena]

Yeah, of course.

[Ash]

So, not wanting to wait any longer and fully aware that he could be very wrong about what he thought was happening, Hanes was like, I don't care. He drove to a nearby payphone and called the police.

[Elena]

What a badass.

[Ash]

Truly, he told the dispatcher. You might think I'm a little screwy, but I just witnessed something that doesn't look right. I think a man just lured a little girl into his car and now he. And the. Look, he and the girl went into his apartment together and they sent a cruiser.

[Elena]

Good.

[Ash]

Which is actually pretty bombers for that time period, because nobody believed anybody back then.

[Elena]

But thank God, that's actually shocking.

[Ash]

It is. So minutes later, a police cruiser pulled up alongside the payphone and Haynes pointed out the apartment that the man. This man had walked into. And the officer, Chris Camacho, I believe it is, thanked, Haynes, walked over to the apartment door and knocked on the door hard and fast again. I'm not going to go into all the details here. They're available elsewhere if you want them. But when the officer was able to make his way in, it was a horrible scene. He ultimately found Tally laying in a large pool of blood coming from her head. It was clear that she had been sexually assaulted and there was a metal bar across her throat that was effectively suffocating her.

[Elena]

Oh, my God. He is a monster.

[Ash]

He's a monster. She's eight. She is a baby. I can't even.

[Elena]

I can't even like my.

[Ash]

So Officer Camacho grabbed a towel from the kitchen counter so as not to disturb any of the evidence, and carefully lifted the bar off of her throat and then checked for a pulse. She was pale. She was badly injured, but Tali was still alive.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

In the meantime, the occupant, asshole, piece of shit, garbage, human motherfucker of the apartment had slipped out of the bedroom window. And Camacho didn't want to leave Tully alone. So he ended up just staying in the apartment and waiting for the ambulance while officers and detectives then spread across the entire neighborhood looking for this creep. Tali remained in a coma for over a month at a nearby hospital.

[Elena]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

But after months of rehabilitation, she was able to return to school and actually lived a pretty normal life.

[Elena]

I am so glad to hear that.

[Ash]

Yeah. Once she recovered from all of her physical injuries, the Shapiro family actually moved to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, hoping that a new environment would help her healing process. And the last thing she remembered was entering the apartment. But she said everything that happened after that was and always would be a blank. Oh, she doesn't remember any of it.

[Elena]

I am so glad. I hope that never comes back to her.

[Ash]

Never, ever, ever.

[Elena]

I hope she never. That never resurfaces. Ever.

[Ash]

When we say he's a monster, he's. He's worse.

[Elena]

Oh, he's.

[Ash]

He's worse than that. And the fact that she. I mean, she's one of his, what we believe to be one of his first victims, but it's like, that's where you start your criminal activities.

[Elena]

What a disgusting piece of shit.

[Ash]

Like a pig. He's awful. Oh, I can't. I can't even linger on it too long. Years later, though, Morgan and Tally connected over their shared experiences through letters, and they actually even appeared on the show. I survived a serial killer.

[Elena]

Oh, shit.

[Ash]

I think in either 2021 or 2022.

[Elena]

Oh, wow.

[Ash]

Yeah. And Morgan said she, like, felt this, like. Like, protectiveness over Tali, and that's what connected them. And she even said, like, she was sorry to Tally that she didn't report what happened to her.

[Elena]

Oh, God.

[Ash]

She was like, if I had done that, maybe it wouldn't have happened to you. But Tally was like, no, it's not you. It's him that did this.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

They became friends.

[Elena]

Oh, I love that.

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

I'm so glad something good came out of that.

[Ash]

I know. I wanted to tell you guys because I'm like, huh? Because, again, it's gonna get rough, so we gotta have those little glimmers there. Los Angeles police Detective Steve Hodel, whose name you might recognize.

[Elena]

I sure do.

[Ash]

He is George Hodel, one of the prime suspects in the Black Dahlia's case's son. He was assigned to this case and immediately set out, learning everything he could about the suspect, Rodney Alcala. Because, remember, they know his name. This is his apartment. He's renting.

[Elena]

My mind. Yeah, like, that's blowing my mind. And this, like, how this went any further.

[Ash]

It was like, 8:30 in the morning, too. This girl's just. It's a week on her way to School.

[Elena]

Like.

[Ash]

Like you would never expect something that.

[Elena]

Would happen right then on her way to school.

[Unknown]

Mm.

[Elena]

Like Jesus.

[Ash]

Now, to his surprise, no one at Chateau Marmont seemed to know anything about Alcala personally, but they all described him as a quiet person and not a troublemaker.

[Elena]

And that impression go that far?

[Ash]

Yeah, I know. That impression was echoed by his former classmates and professors at ucla. When Steve Hodel talked to them, one faculty member told Hodel that Alcala, quote, wouldn't harm a fly.

[Elena]

Again, I wouldn't go that far.

[Ash]

It's like, yeah, we have evidence that he did hurt much more than a fly.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

An eight year old little girl.

[Elena]

Yeah. He sexually assaulted an eight year old. So do you want to. You want to suck that one back into your mouth?

[Ash]

Essentially tried to kill her.

[Elena]

I hate that. Yeah, I do hate that.

[Ash]

Don't say that.

[Elena]

Don't say that when you just heard that this man might be a child rapist. Don't say he wouldn't hurt a fly.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

Because that's not true.

[Ash]

We can only hope that whoever said that didn't know what he was being.

[Elena]

Well, that's. I know. It's like the impression of somebody, like, I. How many times you hear about something happening and you hear the people be like, holy.

[Ash]

I have no respect to that.

[Elena]

But it's like, just, you know, be careful of the words that come out of your mouth during those times.

[Ash]

Agreed. More important than what his peers and neighbors thought of him, though, was the fact that none of them had seen him recently. In fact, Hodel could have searched all over California and he never would have found Rodney Alcala. Because by then, Rodney Alcala was thousands of miles away. As Steve Hodel was making the rounds of the UCLA campus to learn about his suspect, Rodney Alcala, now calling himself John Berger, walked into the admissions office at New York University and applied for a spot in the undergraduate film program at the School of Fine Arts.

[Elena]

Wow, what a weird next move.

[Ash]

You know what I think I'll do? I think I'll take a film class after, you know, terrorizing people in California and a small child. That sounds good.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. Despite the highly competitive nature of the program. Actually, at the time, one of the instructors was the then acclaimed Roman Polanski. And the fact that the semester had already started, Alcala was admitted. Wow. Like, he's a charmer. Wow, he's a charmer.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That just goes to show you, that right there, that's a competitive school. At the time, Roman Polanski was like.

[Elena]

A very prominent name.

[Ash]

Prominent name Exactly. And they're like, yeah, you can take this class. Wow. What?

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Once again, though, he impressed his professors, his peers, who found him to be charismatic, like I just said, and highly motivated student.

[Elena]

He's like John Wayne Gacy.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

Like, he's, you know, he's got that.

[Ash]

Kind of like, you can turn it on, but when it's off.

[Elena]

Yeah. He's got that smarmy charm.

[Ash]

Smarmy charm, yep. Admission Admissions chairperson Arlene Mock said of Alcala, there was a quiet determinism that seemed to pervade everything he did outside of class. It appeared that he was similarly successful. He dated casually. Oh, can you imagine?

[Elena]

Can you imagine looking back?

[Ash]

Absolutely not.

[Elena]

Because you'd have no way of knowing.

[Ash]

No, you'd never.

[Elena]

That's the thing, like, from everybody.

[Ash]

So charismatic.

[Elena]

I mean, somebody just said he wouldn't hurt a fly. He obviously is not showcasing his aggression outside of these things.

[Ash]

I mean, again, going back to the beginning of the episode, he was the bachelor who won the dating game, won the date.

[Elena]

The amount of women who must be like, holy shit.

[Ash]

Yeah. I can't even imagine. I cannot even imagine. He made friends with fellow students. He was working on group projects with people. Wow. He even managed to make some money as a commercial photographer at that time. In every sense, he seemed an ordinary but particularly driven student. And nobody suspected there was anything dark about him at all.

[Elena]

That's so scary. It's. That is so scary.

[Ash]

Yeah. On the evening of June 12, 1971, on the other side of Manhattan, though friends had been trying unsuccessfully to reach Cornelia Michelle Crilly all afternoon, 23 year old, she went by Michael Crilly, as she was known to friends, had recently moved out of her parents home in Bayside, Queens, and found her own apartment in an Upper east side neighborhood that is sometimes called, and it's a quote girl ghetto or Mecca for maidens.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

It's. It was very affordable at the time and young people were all moving over there.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

It's kind of like if you're from Boston, like the Brookline, Somerville area.

[Elena]

That makes sense.

[Ash]

Curley had spent that spring at the Trans World Airlines campus in Kansas, training to be a flight attendant. And she had just come back to New York. She was super excited to start her career. So excited to have an apartment of her own. Was just setting out in the world. According to her boyfriend, Leon Bornstein. Michael was funny, vivacious, had a jaunt in her step, and she had a real joie de vivre. She was also gorgeous. He said the night before he was trying to get a hold of Michael by the phone, and after several unsuccessful attempts, he finally went over to her apartment and tried the door, but it was locked. Locked. So, concerned for her safety, he called the police and an officer was able to access the apartment through a window just off the fire escape.

[Unknown]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. You know when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself, talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace. Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus, Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com save $80 with code [e-mail].

[Ash]

Curley was still in the process of moving in, so the apartment was pretty much empty. But in the bedroom, lying on the floor, they found Michael Curley's partially closed body, a stocking tied tightly around her neck.

[Elena]

Jesus.

[Ash]

To the investigators, her apartment had all the hallmarks of a targeted murder. Nothing was missing. There was a small amount of cash and other valuables right in plain sight. There was no sign of a break in and no sign of a struggle elsewhere in the apartment. Apartment. And it was obvious that she had been the victim of a violent sexual assault. This is very brutal. I just want to give you a heads up. Her shirt had been stuffed into her mouth and there was saliva and bite marks on both of her breasts. There were also signs of serious trauma to the rest of her body. And it was very clear that she had been raped. I can't imagine what she went through.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

One of the officers asked, and this is horrible. One of the officers asked Leon, her boyfriend, to come into the bedroom to identify her, which is insane. That is beyond like we were talking. I for the blackout ripper. I forget the time period, but it was way it was during World War II, wasn't it?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It was, like, during the 1930s, 40s.

[Elena]

It was literally. They were being sensitive to make sure family members didn't see these scenes.

[Ash]

They did everything they could and made sure that nobody saw the scenes. These officers pulled him in and was like, can you. Can you tell us, is this her?

[Elena]

What? The wild. Who would ever bring, especially, like, their boyfriend or their loved one, significant other, any loved one of any kind, to see them in that position? Yeah. That will ruin you for the rest of your life. I don't know. How do you ever recover from seeing someone you love in that position? I would never recover.

[Ash]

You don't.

[Elena]

We even take great. I don't. That doesn't make any fucking sense to me because I've done plenty of viewings. When I worked at the morgue, we went to great lengths to make sure there was nothing upsetting about nothing beyond seeing your loved one, of course, dead. But, like, we would go to great lengths to make sure there was nothing seen that was beyond what they were already gonna see.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

So, like. Like, I just can't. Like, my brain doesn't wrap around that.

[Ash]

Sometimes, especially back then. The NYPD is very similar to the lapd.

[Elena]

I was gonna say that.

[Ash]

You just sit here, like, question mark, question mark, question.

[Elena]

That's a state of dumb that I. I didn't know people existed.

[Ash]

You have to assume that that was like a. And you have to almost hope even that that was a rookie who was just real dumb in that moment.

[Elena]

You. I mean, lose your job at that point, like, you've just ruined someone for.

[Ash]

The rest of their lives Years later. He said it was a terrible scene. Yeah. Michael's mouth was wide open because rigor mortis had set in, and the killer had put something in her mouth to prevent her from screaming. I couldn't even tell it was Michael, she was so disfigured.

[Elena]

Yeah. I can't. The fact that they had that guy.

[Ash]

Do that is so messed up.

[Elena]

Beyond so messed up.

[Ash]

Wow. But detectives learned from Leon that earlier that day, Michael had been looking for somebody who could help her move two heavy beds. Beds and other furniture up to her apartment. And since some of the furniture appeared to have been moved in by the time she was killed, they theorized that whoever helped her move was probably the same person who killed her. But Leon rejected that theory. He said Michael would have had to have recognized him or known him before she would have let anybody inside. But the coroner took swabs of the saliva and a bite Mark impression. But otherwise, the body was absent of any other physical evidence that could help identify their killer. Meanwhile, executives at TWA authorized a $5,000 reward for any information leading to an arrest. And a few days later, the Professional Airlines Stewardess association upped that reward by a thousand dollars.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

And despite the offer of the reward, though, the case quickly went cold.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Ash]

A few days later, Michael Crilley's funeral was held in Queens and was attended by nearly 1500 people. This girl was. Was so beloved.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

After the murder of Michael Curley, Rodney Alcala needed to get out of the city, obviously. So in early July, he applied for a position as an arts camp counselor at a children's summer camp in New Hampshire.

[Elena]

No. No.

[Ash]

What the.

[Elena]

Stop.

[Ash]

What the. But he was using an alias. He was using the name John Berger, so they wouldn't have known any better. But at the same time, investigators in California still had not given up the search for Tally Shapiro's attacker. And by then, Alcala had actually been added to the FBI's list of most wanted fugitives.

[Elena]

And here he is just on the East Coast.

[Ash]

Yep. His face and description appearing on wanted posters in federal buildings pretty much everywhere in the U.S. wow. Now, and this is crazy, the amount of times he just, like, just by chance somebody sees something in these cases, there's. It's wild. In August, two girls from the camp, they walked a short distance to the post office just to mail some letters back home. It was meant to be a pretty quick trip, actually. But by the time they reached the post office, it started to rain heavily. So they were like, let's just wait inside until the rain lets up, because we don't want to get soaked on the way back to camp.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So they just wandered around the post office. It was a pretty small building. They were looking at the governmental notices on the wall, and eventually their eyes settled on the bulletin board of all the wanted criminals. And one of the faces looked very familiar. According to the notice, the man's name was Rodney Alcala, and he was wanted for assault of a child in California. But he looked remarkably similar to their very popular camp counselor. John.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Can you imagine?

[Ash]

No, I cannot. To be a parent and to later learn that Rodney Alcala was your child's camp counselor.

[Elena]

I'd never let my kids do anything again.

[Ash]

Never. I feel like you're actually. We actually live in the house, and we never leave.

[Elena]

Yeah. We actually have a bomb shelter now, and we're going to live there.

[Ash]

Sound good? Never leaving. Bye. So the girls Dismissed the notice as merely a coincidence. After all, John Berger said he'd come from New York, where he'd lived his entire life. And he definitely didn't seem like somebody who would hurt a child. He was good to them in that. At that camp, but still, the resemblance was uncanny. So when they got back to camp, they did mention the poster to the camp director.

[Elena]

Good.

[Ash]

Who was like, you know what? I'm going to go check that out just to be sure, because I actually give a. About the safety of children.

[Elena]

I love that.

[Ash]

At the post office, the camp director stared at the wanted poster for several minutes. Just sat there in awe, reading and rereading the information on Rodney Alcala. None of the details matched what he had been told about John Berger, but he simply could not ignore the fact that that man in the photo was pretty much identical to the counselor he'd hired just one month earlier.

[Elena]

And he has a very, like.

[Ash]

He's got a distinct face.

[Elena]

Yeah. It's not like he's. I'm trying to think of, like, how to describe it, because it's not like he's like, you know, like somebody that you're like, oh, like, how could you ever. Like, you know, even, like, they look like everybody else. He's just got something. He's got very, like. It's very, like, cheekbones are very. He's. He's very reminiscent of Richard Ramirez. He's not very reminiscent where he has, like, very, like, pronounced bounced cheekbones. He's got like, you know, his eyes are, like, a certain way. So I unders. Because, like, a lot of guys around that time, like, same haircut, same kind of thing going on.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So you'd be like, yeah. I don't know. It kind of. So the fact that they are so. So sure, like, this has got to be that, you know, he's got to have some. Something.

[Ash]

Something about him. I think it's his eyes. Something. And they're dead.

[Elena]

They. And they're scary.

[Ash]

They're.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like there's something evil in those eyes. It feels like something is, like, brimming in those eyes.

[Ash]

And I think it's because a lot of the pictures, obviously you see are after his arrest. So he just let his facade go completely. But you can also see how somebody would be like, oh, that guy's harmless.

[Elena]

You see him on the Dating Game. Have you ever seen the clips?

[Ash]

I actually. I can't even watch them. The clip freaks me out.

[Elena]

Horrifying.

[Ash]

I've seen a couple, but.

[Elena]

Because you get why people are. Didn't think Twice about him.

[Ash]

Again, he is super charismatic.

[Elena]

He's very much like a. Like in the vein of Ted Bundy that way.

[Ash]

I was literally just thinking that. And I think it's the intelligence level. They know they. And they study other people and they see what makes people tick when they.

[Elena]

Talk to others and what makes people a. People like, they. They literally just try to kind of duplicate and imitate what they see.

[Ash]

And it works because. Highly intelligent.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So the director asked the woman at the counter in the post office if he could use the phone. After standing there for several minutes, just going back and forth in his. Was like, I gotta report this just in case.

[Elena]

Good for him.

[Ash]

So he dialed the number on the poster, and he was immediately connected with the regional branch of the FBI, which. Can you imagine? Just a camp counselor from New Hampshire.

[Elena]

And he's just like, oh, hey.

[Ash]

He's like, hi. I'm terrified.

[Elena]

Yeah, hi.

[Ash]

The agent on the phone took all the details that the director could remember about John off the top of his head. You know John Berger, the camp counselor. Yeah. And then instructed the man to return to the camp and act as normal as he could. He was like, you just have to go back to the camp and act like nothing is wrong. But he emphasized, do not leave him alone with any of the young female campers or any female campers at all.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Make sure you act as normal as you can. But you gotta make sure he's not.

[Elena]

Alone with anybody that would be hearing that.

[Ash]

How do you act normal after knowing that he's possibly wanted in California for the assault of a child?

[Elena]

But thank goodness this guy went this far, because I'm glad people intervened here.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's.

[Elena]

It seems like this is a case that's very different from a lot of cases we see.

[Ash]

That's the thing. Exactly. Now, he didn't have to keep up the facade too long, because the next morning, a group of FBI agents arrived at the camp and took Alcala into custody without incident.

[Elena]

Oh, wow.

[Ash]

After comparing his fingerprints with those on file, they knew that they had the right person, and they called Steve Hodel in Los Angeles, who immediately booked a flight. A flight to Boston so he could personally bring Alcala back to California to stand trial.

[Elena]

He was like, you.

[Ash]

I'm bringing you in. Hodel arrived at the local police precinct early on the morning of August 12, where he was introduced to Alcala. And as they waited for the extradition paperwork to be completed, Hodel asked Alcala, why? Why did you attack a little child? And in response, Alcala looked expressionless at Hodel and said I don't want to talk about Rad Alcala and what he did.

[Elena]

Oh please.

[Ash]

That's it.

[Elena]

Please.

[Ash]

And that is where we're going to end for part one. Oh God, yes. Yeah, we're going to talk about, you know, his arrest, a conviction and his eventual release in part two. So get ready for that. And then so part there's going to be a little break between part one and part two because we have, you know, Listener Tales, which you'll need as a little pallet cleanser.

[Elena]

You are going to need that.

[Ash]

Yeah. So part two will be coming out next Monday. We'll do a little Listener Tales video in between then. So definitely tune in for that. It will be be kind of like a pre palette cleanser, I guess.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Also kind of a post and again.

[Elena]

You'Ll you have a lot more after that coming. So.

[Ash]

Yeah. Yeah. So stay tuned. We hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird, but not so weird as any of this. And guys, I know I don't have to tell you that.

[Elena]

No, certainly not.

[Ash]

Yeah, do keep it as weird as all these good Samaritans though, who actually calls people. Keep it that weird.

[Elena]

Keep it real weird like that.

[Ash]

All right.

[Elena]

Bye bye. Foreign.

[Ash]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Unknown]

Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music.

[Ash]

Before you go, tell us about yourself.

[Unknown]

By filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

UFO lands in Suffolk and that's official, said the News of the World. But what really happened across two nights in December 1980 when US servicemen saw mysterious lights in the forest near RAF Woodbridge and claimed to have had a close encounter with an actual craft?

Encounters, a new podcast available exclusively on Wondery, takes a deep dive into one of the most famous and still unresolved UFO encounters to ever take place in the uk. Featuring shocking testimony from first hand witnesses, hosts, journalist, podcaster and UFO researcher Andy McVillan. That's me. And producer L. Scott take us back to the nights in question and examine all of the evidence and conflicting theories about what was encountered in the middle of a Snowy Suffolk Forest 40 years ago.

Are we alone? Encounters is a podcast which is going to find out. Listen to Encounters exclusively in ad free on Wondry plus. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or in Apple Podcasts.