Episode 644: A Sit Down With Chapman & Maclain Way, Directors of "The Kings of Tupelo: A Southern Crime Saga"

Summary

Morbid Podcast Episode 644: A Deep Dive with Chapman & Maclain Way on "The Kings of Tupelo: A Southern Crime Saga"

In Episode 644 of Morbid, hosts Elena and Ash engage in an enlightening conversation with Emmy-award-winning documentary directors Chapman and Maclain Way. The duo discusses their latest work, "The Kings of Tupelo: A Southern Crime Saga", a three-part Netflix documentary that unravels a convoluted true crime story set in the heart of Mississippi.

---

1. Meet the Filmmakers: Chapman & Maclain Way

Chapman and Maclain Way come from a family deeply entrenched in the film industry. With a screenplay-writing father and relatives involved in producing and acting, their passion for filmmaking was cultivated early on. However, their initial interests leaned towards sports, only pivoting to documentary filmmaking in their late teens when they recognized the evolving landscape of the genre.

Chapman shares, “We kind of grew up where documentaries were kind of like the vegetables. So they were like the broccoli of the entertainment industry” ([04:54]).

Their transition to documentaries was inspired by a desire to create more entertaining and artful narratives, leading them to fully immerse themselves in the field around 2010.

---

2. Unpacking "The Kings of Tupelo"

"The Kings of Tupelo" centers around a bizarre incident from 2013 involving one of America’s most prominent Elvis impersonators, Kevin Curtis, who was arrested for allegedly attempting to assassinate President Barack Obama by sending ricin-laced letters. However, the plot thickens as Curtis claims he was framed by a rival taekwondo instructor from Tupelo.

Chapman explains, “In 2013, kind of one of our country's preeminent Elvis impersonators had been arrested for trying to assassinate President Barack Obama and had sent poison in the mail” ([05:16]).

The documentary delves into Curtis's journey post-arrest, uncovering layers of conspiracy, black-market body parts, and the eclectic personalities of Tupelo’s residents.

---

3. Living in Tupelo: A Unique Filmmaking Experience

Filming in Tupelo, Mississippi—the birthplace of Elvis Presley—provided Chapman and Maclain with a vibrant backdrop teeming with larger-than-life characters and an inherent storytelling culture. Contrary to their expectations of resistance towards being filmed, the locals were incredibly welcoming and enthusiastic about the project.

Chapman recounts, “We were all going this” ([09:28]), highlighting the southern penchant for embellishing stories and celebrating eccentricities as a badge of honor.

The filmmakers spent nine months in Tupelo, fostering deep connections with the community, sharing meals, and immersing themselves in the local culture. This prolonged engagement allowed them to capture authentic and heartfelt narratives, making Tupelo almost a character in its own right.

---

4. Navigating Complex Narratives and Conspiracies

One of the standout challenges Chapman and Maclain faced was structuring a narrative laden with conspiracies and unexpected twists. Initially presenting Curtis as the prime suspect, the documentary masterfully leads viewers to a surprising revelation that he was, in fact, framed.

Chapman describes the process, “We decided early on, like, let's just fully embrace the madness and the mythology” ([19:08]).

The intricate web of stories, including the involvement of local figures like Steve Holland—a Mississippi undertaker—and the enigmatic Everett Dutchke, added layers of complexity. Balancing factual accuracy with engaging storytelling required meticulous editing and creative structuring.

Ash adds, “Conspiracy is like this weird amalgamation of, like, well, a” ([41:16]), emphasizing the difficulty in making convoluted conspiracies comprehensible and entertaining for a broad audience.

---

5. The Art of Editing: Crafting a Cohesive Story

Editing "The Kings of Tupelo" was a formidable task due to the multifaceted nature of the story. The filmmakers employed various techniques, such as note cards and string maps, to visualize connections between characters and events.

Chapman notes, “We had the note cards. We had the string on the walls” ([50:21]), illustrating their methodical approach to untangling the narrative.

The reveal that Everett Dutchke, a seemingly peripheral character, was the true antagonist was carefully interwoven throughout the documentary to foreshadow his pivotal role without overtly tipping off the audience.

---

6. Unincluded Yet Impactful Elements

Despite the documentary’s comprehensive coverage, Chapman and Maclain had to omit certain segments due to time constraints. These included deep dives into Kevin Curtis’s mental health struggles and a significant 1992 standoff with Chicago Police SWAT, which provided further insight into Curtis’s psychological state.

Chapman shares regret over these exclusions, stating, “I think one of the real, real first reasons we wanted to make this was when we were researching, I kind of became obsessed with this Reddit thread” ([56:48]).

These omitted sections promised a more nuanced portrayal of Curtis and the ripple effects of his actions on his family and community.

---

7. Future Endeavors and Continuing the Storytelling Legacy

Looking ahead, Chapman and Maclain are set to explore the realm of sports documentaries with a forthcoming ten-part series on Jerry Jones and Jim Johnson of the Dallas Cowboys, partnering with Skydance and NFL Films for Netflix. This project marks a departure from their true crime roots but underscores their versatility and continued passion for uncovering compelling stories.

Chapman enthusiastically states, “Just real. We're excited for Dallas Cowboys. It's coming out this summer” ([63:43]).

Their future projects promise to maintain the same depth and intrigue that characterized "The Kings of Tupelo" while venturing into new thematic territories.

---

8. Reflections on Documentary Filmmaking

Throughout the episode, Chapman and Maclain reflect on the evolving landscape of documentary filmmaking. They express a preference for uncovering obscure, untold stories over widely recognized events, aiming to introduce audiences to new narratives that challenge and captivate.

Elena concurs, “I think you guys are in the right mindset, though, with the way you do it, with like, taking a story that, that most people will not be familiar with” ([38:33]).

Their dedication to authenticity and narrative innovation positions them as notable voices in the documentary community, continually pushing the boundaries of the genre.

---

Notable Quotes

• Chapman on embracing local culture: “We kind of decided early on, like, let's just fully embrace the madness and the mythology and the storytelling” ([19:08]).

• Ash on the complexities of conspiracy documentaries: “Conspiracy is like this weird amalgamation of, like, well, a system that needs to be, like, accurately or not accurate” ([41:16]).

• Chapman on the reveal strategy: “We had to set up the crime earlier... we were trying to convince you for the next 90 minutes that this guy [did it]...” ([43:22]).

• Elena on audience experience: “It's easy to follow, though, for sure. By the end of it, you get what's happening” ([51:41]).

---

Conclusion

Episode 644 of Morbid offers listeners an in-depth look into the intricate process of creating a true crime documentary that balances fact, fiction, and the rich tapestry of local storytelling. Through their candid discussion, Chapman and Maclain Way reveal the challenges and triumphs of bringing "The Kings of Tupelo" to life, highlighting their commitment to storytelling that is as engaging as it is authentic. For fans of true crime and documentary filmmaking, this episode is a treasure trove of insights and behind-the-scenes anecdotes.

---

Listen to Episode 644: If you haven't watched "The Kings of Tupelo: A Southern Crime Saga", it's available on Netflix. Dive into this enthralling documentary and explore the depths of southern eccentricity and criminal intrigue.

Transcript

[Elena]

Hey, weirdos. Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify.

[Ash]

You're listening to a Morbid network podcast.

[Unknown]

There's a lot in life that feels like it should be guaranteed, but it just isn't. Things like your friends being on their way when they text you omw. Or getting out the same number of socks from the dryer that you put in. AT&T is introducing a new guarantee, the AT and T guarantee. Because there's a lot in life that's not guaranteed. The AT and T guarantee means connectivity you can depend on, deals you want and service you deserve, or they'll make it right. Visit att.com guaranty to learn more. AT and T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. Have you ever grown tired of searching for your favorite movies and TV shows across numerous streaming accounts? It's so frustrating to have all your favorite shows live across multiple logins and apps. I'm like trying to watch one show. I'm like, wait, what's my login here? On Prime Video, though, you can add over 100 subscriptions like Max, Apple TV plus and Paramount plus all in one app. Experience the convenience of having your favorite subscriptions in your Prime Video account with one login and one password. There's a hundred more premium and specialty subscriptions to unlock a world of movies, TV and sports all in one app. Super duper easy to not have to log in to like 45 different streaming services. Check out subscriptions on Prime Video.

[McLean]

Hey weirdos, I'm Ash.

[Elena]

And I'm Elena.

[McLean]

And this is Morbid.

[Chapman]

Foreign.

[McLean]

It's a special morbid. We have some directors on today, honey. We have Emmy award winning directors at that McLean and Chapman way. They are brothers. We have them on the show today. You might know them from Wild Wild country or Untold and perhaps now from Kings of Tupelo which is a three part documentary. It dropped on Netflix back in December. I think it was December 11th. There are probably going to be some spoilers in this episode so we definitely highly suggest that you watch it before you listen to this.

[Elena]

But and it is so good. Listen to it or watch it. Listen to it and watch it.

[McLean]

Watch it. The order that we would love for you to do this in is watch it and then listen to it.

[Elena]

Correct.

[McLean]

And you know what? Live your own life, though. Make your own choices. Do what you want to do.

[Elena]

But they were great to talk to.

[McLean]

They were awesome to talk to. This story has crazy details. There's rice and lace letters being sent to President Obama, if anybody remembers that from, I think, 2013.

[Elena]

Yep.

[McLean]

There's a deep, dark conspiracy about black market body parts.

[Elena]

Yep.

[McLean]

Severed heads and freezers. And somehow that all culminates into an Elvis impersonator's massive feud with a taekwondo instructor.

[Elena]

As. As it usually does.

[McLean]

Yeah. So if that doesn't entice you, I love you, but I don't know what's wrong with you.

[Elena]

But I don't know what you like.

[McLean]

Okay. I don't know what you could possibly. But if that does entice you, keep listening. So before we get into the details of the Kings of Tupelo, we wanted to talk a little bit about how you guys got into filmmaking in the first place. It's obviously something that's in your blood. So was it something that you guys were always interested in?

[Chapman]

Yeah, it's a. Interesting question. I think Mac and I grew up in a family that has worked in the film industry. Our. Our father was a screenplay writer growing up and wrote screenplays for films. And we've had uncles and aunts who are producers and actors and things like that. And so it was kind of always around us. But truthfully, Mac and I kind of loved sports growing up. And so really we played a lot of sports. And then I think as we got older and realized there was zero chance of us ever becoming professional athletes, which.

[Ash]

My dream is still don't kill my fans. Yeah.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

I'm a 34 year old guy that's still got a great jump shot.

[McLean]

There's still time. Never give up.

[Ash]

There's still things that we kind of.

[Chapman]

Got like, obsessed with music and film and the arts in high school and really kind of came to it on our own in a way. And I was kind of studying cinematography and Mac was actually studying history at the time. And this was around, you know, 2007, 2008, and quickly realized that there was like, kind of new ways to make documentary films. Like, I think we kind of grew up where documentaries were kind of like the vegetables. So they were like the broccoli of the entertainment industry.

[Ash]

And we were starting to see like.

[Chapman]

More entertaining, more thrilling, more artful documentary filmmaking. And so we kind of dove in and around 2010 and kind of have been doing it ever since.

[McLean]

Nice. Awesome. So for Our listeners that have not seen this specific documentary yet, Kings of Tupelo. Can you give us a brief overview of what takes place and kind of what the story is all about? Because there's a lot there.

[Chapman]

Yes, I think brief is probably the most important word in that question. So I'll do my best because that's a weird story. But basically in 2013, kind of one of our country's preeminent Elvis impersonators had been arrested for trying to assassinate President Barack Obama and had sent poison in the mail. A poison called ricin, just very potent, dangerous, rare poison. And basically a week later, he was released from interrogation from prison and it had been announced that he had been framed by a local rival karate instructor in the town of Tupelo, Mississippi, where they're both from. And so that's kind of the headline. We flew out to Tupelo, Mississippi, which is the birthplace of Elvis Presley in 2020, started meeting with a lot of the characters, and kind of quickly realized that there was a whole hell of a lot more to the story than just that insane headline. So our journey began in 2020. Probably, I'd say, is when we kind of started working on this full time.

[Ash]

You left out so much chat.

[Chapman]

You left out.

[Ash]

You left out.

[Chapman]

That was a lot easy.

[Ash]

You said the doc don't realize what.

[Chapman]

A great job I did.

[Elena]

You did do a great job.

[McLean]

No, you really did.

[Ash]

That was like, that was like 4% of the documentary. Truly.

[Elena]

It's so wild too, because if you heard that synopsis or read that synopsis on the back of a fiction book, you'd be like, that's a lot like you.

[McLean]

That's crazy.

[Elena]

That's a little far fetched. It's like, this is real.

[Chapman]

We always say, like, if we like pitch this as a narrative film, like no one would be like, that's wild.

[Elena]

Like, no one's gonna buy that.

[Ash]

Yeah, that was our experience too, because like we, the first time we. You know, when you go into Tupelo, you fly into Memphis and then it's like 90 minutes south across or the state border into, into Mississippi and like it. You're not really driving to anything. Like, you don't you just kind of like go to Tupelo. It always felt like kind of like the town from like Big Fish a little bit where it's like you kind of like go off this like eaten path to this dirt road and like you see these like telephone wires with like everyone's like shoes like strung up and like no one really like leaves this Town, but it's like a really, like, cool, magical place. But it was interesting, like, because when we first got there, where it was almost an element that I was, like, a little nervous, I would wince when I would tell people I was there, because we kind of just by the. By. By the fact that there was like, seven or eight or nine or ten of us in our film crew, and we have film cameras, and we had, like, a small production van. Like, people just notice you immediately, and they ask you, like, what you're doing there, but they're very friendly about it. It's like a very, like, hospitable welcome. And I almost, like, wince telling them, you know, like, oh, we're doing, like, the 2013 presidential assassination. Because it's, like, a small town. You would think that they would, like, not. Not that. That's not. They wouldn't be that excited that the Netflix documentary would be doing something on that story. And it felt like their reaction was, like, the exact, exact opposite. Like, they were so stoked that, like, Netflix, that someone was coming to town to do something, like, kind of involved with Elvis, but more on this, like, wackadoo, crazy story with all these, like, really fascinating characters. And it was like that almost like, set the tone for the whole doc where it's like, oh, we can actually have, like, a lot of. A lot of fun with this one. It's. And I think we certainly did. It was cool.

[McLean]

That's amazing, because I would assume that you probably don't run into that a lot where people are so willing to talk to you like that. And especially in a small town, too.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's.

[Chapman]

I mean, like, especially in la, no one wants to be on camera. Everyone's, like, very angry when they see cameras.

[Ash]

And when we got the two, not.

[Chapman]

Only were they excited, but there are certain characters in our story who play, like, the quote unquote role of the villain or the bad guy. And they were, like, so excited by that opportunity and even relished the opportunity to be the bad guy in this story. And so we had so much fun. We quickly realized down in the south, especially in Tupelo and Mississippi, that they love telling stories. You know, they love embellishing the truth, they love heightening the truth. They're just such larger than life characters. They.

[Ash]

They're.

[Chapman]

They're proud of their eccentricities. And I think kind of where we're from is a little bit different. People kind of hide their quirks and their weird things, and it was just so much fun and so refreshing to be in the south, where it's really a badge of honor, your eccentricity. And we truly had a great time hanging out with these characters and then getting to film them.

[McLean]

That's so cool. I love the way you guys open the documentary, too, where you talk about how Southern people and the south in general is just so good at storytelling. Because immediately that documentary opens and you're like, oh, this is gonna. First of all, you know, it's gonna be a tale. If you read the description and then the way it starts, you're like, this is a cozy vibe. I love this.

[Ash]

It was our. Like, we always joke that. That was, like, our version of, like, a legal disclaimer was just using. Using, like, a William Faulkner quote, like, and then Steve Holland, who's our. Our Mississippi undertaker, kind of just Wax is poetic on. On. Yeah, exactly what Chap said. Just, like, how they love to embellish stories for a good time, because it was interesting. Like, there was so much to this documentary that, like, I think it took a while to make it. I think it took us, like, you know, from. From, like, real production to finishing was at least two, two and a half years, you know, and then we had support from Netflix, so it's like. It wasn't like we needed to, like, rally resources. Like, we went at it pretty quickly, but, like, to investigate, like, all the truth claims in this documentary, like, I think would have taken, like, 10 years to make it, you know, easily. So there was kind of an element of, like, when we were down there, like, within reason. I think we just tried to, like, ride the waves of these interviews and some of the outlandish stuff that was. That was being said. Said to us.

[McLean]

So when did this story first, like, come across your desk? I guess I would say, was it the presidential assassination that you heard of first, or was it another element of the story?

[Chapman]

Yeah, I mean, so 2013, we just had, like, a very faint memory, honestly, just the first part of the story, that an Elvis impersonator had been arrested for trying to assassinate the president. So just that headline kind of always stayed with us. And then in 2020, I kind of became fascinated with small towns and small towns that have these incredibly bizarre and human stories that maybe other people don't know. And I was doing research and kind of stumbled across Tupelo, which is like a world unto itself. It's just filled with Elvis statues and Elvis murals, and they're kind of like the stepbrother to Graceland and Memphis, where Elvis is really known for. And then all of a sudden, like, Just researching Tupelo, I saw that the presidential assassination story, the two main characters lived in Tupelo. And so then I started reading it again. Mac and I started researching. We flew out there in 2020, not even knowing, is it a short doc? Is it a feature? What is it? And like I said, we met Paul Kevin Curtis, who's the main character who was arrested, initially arrested for trying to assassinate obama. And within 10 minutes, I was like, Kevin is an incredible storyteller. He's an incredible character. He's so dynamic on screen, and he just has an amazing story that no one really knows about. And so that was kind of the impetus that started it all.

[McLean]

That makes sense. He really is such a good storyteller. It was wild. And I love the storyboards that you guys kind of intertwined throughout the documentary. That's awesome.

[Elena]

I was going to say that was. It was the way you guys shot this that, like, you get that town, like, while you watch it, like, you feel that town, you get that it's like this, like, it's over the top in, like, the best way. Like, everyone is shot, like, so dynamically and in such, like, dynamic environments for who they are. Like, you just got.

[Ash]

That's really cool.

[Elena]

It was so.

[Chapman]

It's always awesome to hear. I mean, like, we're. We're less maybe like investigative documentary filmmakers and more tried, like, storytelling, I think, is as well.

[Ash]

And the town of Tupelo is a.

[Chapman]

Character in the story, so it was important for us that it be heightened. We always said it kind of felt like a Tim Burton movie or something, a little bit of an upside down world. And it was important for us to capture that. Had a little bit of a Twilight Zone feeling very much. And so it's always really cool to hear that that stuff resonates and comes through.

[Ash]

Yeah, it was interesting because even, like, yeah, when we went to, like, Kevin's camper, that was like, we knew this is like a really, like, authentic, interesting place that, like, that Kevin lives in, you know, and it was not easy because we. We like to shoot with three cameras for talking head interviews, which is like, you know, you at least need two, but three is just to get you, like, an extra angle if you want it. But it. But literally, like, it could only like, thank God, Chat. My brother knows how to do sound because, like, I kind of would ask the questions. Chat would do sound and run one camera. And then our cinematographer, David Boland, who just, like, look, shot so much amazing stuff in this series. It just looks so good. He was like, operating two cameras at the same time just because it was. It was a tight spot. It was. We couldn't get, like, everyone in there, but. But no, Tupelo was kind of like a little bit like one of the last documentary series we made, Wild Wild Country. There was a town called Antelope, and, like, very culturally different places. But whenever you're a filmmaker and you, like, get into a town and you're like, oh, my God, anywhere I point the camera, it looks great. Like, it's cool because it's real, it's authentic. And you really get those in this league, these, like, small, historic towns. And then Tubal is cool, too, just because, like, Elvis is just pervasive everywhere. There's, like, every street corner has an Elvis statue or an Elvis mural or, like, and his, like, he. He looks at you like, everywhere you go in that town.

[Elena]

Such a vibe.

[Ash]

It is a vibe, like. And in a weird way, like, we always felt like that that was like the subtext to the insanity of these characters was like, only, like, the most famous person probably of all time in Western civilization, Elvis Presley, like, came from this tiny town. And everyone here today is, like, in their own kind of perverse, perverted, but really, like, interesting, fantastical way is like, trying to reach that level of, like, notoriety. Like, the, like, illusion of grandeur are there. So, you know, that that was always fun to kind of play around with that stuff.

[Elena]

Even when Laura said there was one thing that she said where she was like, every girl wanted to sleep with one of the Elvis impersonators, like, growing up, like, a coming of age. And I was like, absolutely. Like, of course relatable. Like, whoa.

[Chapman]

She said the bucket list.

[Elena]

She said it like, it's just like, that's just what you do.

[Chapman]

She's so much fun. Laura is a great character.

[McLean]

She was really cool. I loved her.

[Chapman]

Very honest. And, yeah, that cracked me up when she said that. And. And not in a shameful way, but in a. In a very owned it and very prideful way from.

[Elena]

I was like, all right.

[McLean]

Yeah, that's what she said.

[Ash]

Matter of fact.

[Chapman]

Exactly.

[Ash]

So good.

[Unknown]

The dayto day is stressful, man. You got work, you got to figure out your finances. You always have to make dinner. That's the worst part of being an adult. And some of you people even have kids. That's a lot to figure out. There's a lot of stre stressful things. And, you know, there's a lot of things on the Internet about how to manage your stress, but sometimes those things just add more stress onto your plate. Like, I don't know. If I don't get in my journal every day and write about how great my stress management was, then I'm stressed about not doing that. But you know what you can do. Start your morning with ritual stress relief. This product uses first of its kind technology to support the body's natural cortisol response so you can take on the daily juggle. I absolutely love ritual vitamins.

[McLean]

I use them myself.

[Unknown]

I think they are the most effective in my opinion. And the stress relief bioseries technology is designed to optimize the release of a trio of clinically studied ingredients to help the body manage stress. The juggle is real. Don't just respond to the stress. Get ahead of it with stress relief from Ritual. Get 25% off your first month at Ritual.com morbid start Ritual or add stress relief to your subscription today. That's ritual.commorbid for 25% off. This show is sponsored by Better Help. A lot of times we hear about the red flags that we should avoid, but what if we focused more on looking for green flags? Flags and friends and partners. You know, the kind of friend that shows up with a coffee for you or you know, says, don't worry, we'll make even on this later. That's green flags right there. If you're not sure what green flags look like, though, therapy can help you identify green flags. Actively practice them in your relationships, and embody the green flag energy yourself. Whether you're dating, married, building a friendship, or just working on yourself, it's time to form relationships that love you back. And therapy is a great place to start. I learned so much about just human connection in general in therapy and I, you know, recommend therapy. If you know me, you know that I definitely recommend better help too. Better Help is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient. Serving over 5 million people worldwide. Access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. You can easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Discover your relationship green flags with better help. Visit betterhelp.commorbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.commorbid.

[Ash]

Did I read.

[Chapman]

That one of you guys used to do autopsies? Is that correct?

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, I was. I'm an. I was an autopsy technician. Okay, so I guess you're always an autopsy.

[Chapman]

Can I ask you a question? I'm curious. Yeah, Your, your interpretation and take on this body parts Black market conspiracy.

[Ash]

Like, we were just talking about it. We were.

[Chapman]

I'm curious.

[Ash]

America is listening. All is listening. You're about to piss off half of America and become the hero to the hat. So just choose the side. Choose the side you want to be on.

[Elena]

I'll choose. I'm going to step my toe over. It's. I can. When he said he went, like, when he said he went down into the morgue and he was cleaning up and like, when he said he just, like, opened a free. A fridge to, like, get a Dr. Pepper, I was like, from where? But we don't have those on there. But when he said he opened it up and he saw. At first, he said he's, you know, I saw a severed head and I saw all these body parts. I was like, all right, the severed head. Strange. Probably shouldn't be there, but body parts in a freezer are very typical. And I was like, it would freak someone. Like, you know that you have to store them. You're preserving them for research and for tissue sampling and for donations. Anything interesting. I mean, we would store entire, like, spinal columns in the freezer sometimes. So it's like, if you opened that, you'd be like, what? It would look like Hannibal Ecto, an outsider.

[Ash]

It would look strange.

[Chapman]

But for someone who has experience, knows, like, okay, these things get tested for.

[Elena]

Diseases, and it looks strange because it's just by itself.

[Ash]

I'm curious. This. This is an odd question, but I did. I love that we're talking to, like, the best expert on this issue on the podcast and not. And not the documentary film that we made. It's kind of giving me joy. But I did have a conversation with someone that also worked, and I think a dental morgue is what it was called, which I don't like. I guess it's. Yes. I don't know. It's like something interesting.

[Chapman]

But identify teeth and people.

[Ash]

Yeah, I guess so. Something like that. I was in New York City and he. And he made the point. But I'm curious if this was your experience where he was like, my morgue was surprisingly, like, messier than you would think. Messier in terms of, like, it's grotesque. It can get grotesque down there. So I'm curious if that was your take or if it's like, no, like, that's not how. It's not like, it doesn't get that messy.

[Elena]

So that's always. It's funny because I think, like, the CSI effect has made people think that, like, morgues are these, like, high tech, super pristine Everything is like glass, like, lit. Yeah. Like, and it's like we were very clean and it was cleaned every night and, you know, procedures were followed and, like, things were taken care of that way. But it's a wreck, right? I mean, it's like there's. Because something you're going to have just like. So, like. And things are surprisingly, like, not high tech. Like when, you know, I always tell people, like, when we. You have to cut the ribs to take the chest plate off and get to everything. We would use Home Depot hedge cutters to cut ribs. It wasn't like we had a rib cutter that was that. So they're like the orange handle, like, very interesting. But yeah, it was. There was a lot of, like, a lot of blood smears get on things. It's. It's not. You clean up at the end. Yeah. Somebody walks in there in the middle of the day.

[Chapman]

Most important question I think their audiences are curious about. There are no Dr. Peppers in.

[Ash]

All right. We got that one on good authority. All right.

[McLean]

Just taking Hazmat off for a Dr. Pepper. I love that so much.

[Elena]

That was the other thing. I was like, dear God, what a choice. I was like, no way.

[McLean]

Something you touched on earlier. I do feel like Tupelo is a character. It's almost more of a character than it is of a setting. So what was it like spending those nine months there, capturing everything you did?

[Chapman]

The way kind of documentaries are made now is it's much more of like a factory machine where, you know, you're given two weeks of filming, you have to film all of your interviews and all your B roll in this amount of time. And I think the one really cool thing about our partnership with Netflix is they really give us, like, the resources and the time to go live in these places and make these documentaries. And I think when you just fly into somewhere as an outsider with cameras for 10 days and then just throw people on camera and then leave, there's something like very like, non human about it. I feel like you don't actually really get to know the people, the way of life, what they do. So most importantly for us, it was just about us getting to spend time with these people, have meals with these people, sit around the fire with these people and, like, learn how to embrace the weirdness of their lives, but also like, honoring the weirdness and. And the humanity behind it. And so being out there for nine months, I mean, it's a cliche, but it does kind of become a big family with all the different subjects. And you get to know their families. And by the time you start filming, there just is an inherent trust. We know them, they know us. And I think it really lends towards kind of getting these more authentic and. And insightful looks into these characters in their lives.

[Ash]

And, like, it was so funn. Like, since the documentary comes out, like, yeah, there has been, like, a big reaction to, like, wow, these are some, like, weird characters, you know? But I was always like, well, like, what about the two dudes from LA that chose to go spend, like, 10 months, like, living? Like, that's weirder than any. Like, And I was like, if they're. If they're weird, but, like, I think we're the weirdest of them all to be, like, a part of this. But no, like I said at the top, like, they were just so welcoming in a way. Like, I literally remember the only time, I think. And not that, like, Kevin or Laura cared about this, but it did crack me up. The only time I felt like I ever put my foot in my mouth was when you call. When I called someone an Elvis impersonator. And, like, I got pulled aside and was, like, politely but sternly told that they're called Elvis tribute artists. They are not Pete Elvis impersonators.

[McLean]

It is more serious than that.

[Ash]

And I always messed that up.

[Chapman]

I was never able to really commit.

[Ash]

The Elvis tribute artist to memory.

[Elena]

It's a mouthful.

[McLean]

You're, like, writing it on your hand in between takes.

[Ash]

It's a. It's.

[Chapman]

It's a wild town.

[Ash]

Like, it's. You know, we even have some sections that are a little, like, heavier, but. But that was, like, our experience there. Like Kennedy, who's Kevin's son, and it goes on a little bit of, like, a monologue. And it was one of the more interesting interviews that I think we did. And he talks about the poverty that, like, he feels like he and kids around him have. Have kind of lived in. And it's true. It's like these towns. Tupelo has Elvis. So that does go a long way in terms of, like, an economy and tourism. And it is, like, a nice town. But it's an interesting experience when you start to get outside of Tupelo and you start to, like, drive around more in the south and Mississippi, and you, You. You run into areas that are time capsules from, like, the 1950s. And as a filmmaker, that's an interesting experience, but as a human, it's also. It's heavy. You know, it's heavy going to a town that literally has, you know, like I said, has Is. Is kind of a time capsule. So it's a weird amalgamation, you know, but, like, one that was. Was. Was poetic and very interesting.

[McLean]

Definitely. It's like an extended field trip to one of the coolest places, I bet.

[Ash]

Really is. Really is. It's a good way of putting it.

[Chapman]

Also, I think our favorite part about being down there is, like, people get off their phones and they talk and they hang out and they eat dinners and they cook. And I think for us, like, being from California and growing up in Los Angeles, everyone's so tied to their computers and their phones. And honestly, my favorite part was just like, eating barbecue outside, listening to cicadas and. And hearing them talk about stories was like, for my soul, at least we're very, very healthy and very positive.

[McLean]

Yeah, just like disconnecting while reconnecting.

[Unknown]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chapman]

100.

[McLean]

That ends poetic, you know, I try that end.

[Ash]

That was good.

[McLean]

Where you guys are at the party with. What's the senator's name who opened up the documentary?

[Ash]

Oh, Holland. Steve Holland.

[McLean]

Yeah, yeah, Steve Holland. When you guys are sitting with him and, like, his family and everything, and then you go to the end with Kevin's family, I'm like, I want to go there. Just feels so wholesome.

[Elena]

It really did.

[Chapman]

I know it does. It's like. Like, it's.

[Ash]

And, like, again, we were. We were there to talk to them about a presidential assassination plot that, like, has that. That deals with body parts that were, like, chopped up in a hospital, and then they flew right past that. They, like, didn't. They get. I didn't mean to cut you off, Chad, but I do find she nailed it.

[Chapman]

Like, it was just like. There's a simplicity that is just, like, intoxicating, which is like, let's eat good food. Let's not judge each other. Let's share a bunch of weird fucking stories, and let's have a good time and let's have a beer and let's do a lot of karaoke and sing a lot of Elvis songs.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Chapman]

It was a really fun nine months for us that we spent out there.

[Elena]

You must have heard so much Elvis. Like, so much Elvis music. I was gonna say, those nine months.

[McLean]

How many facts did you learn about Elvis approximately, that you did not know?

[Ash]

It was interesting. There was a point in the documentary where I think I was, like, two months in at Tupelo, and I was meeting a lot of people and talking to a lot of people, and I was actually tired and exhausted with how many times this had happened with people I met where they would ask me. They would talk about Graceland, and I would be like, well, eventually I'd have to interject and say, I have never been to Graceland. And then they would just, like, that was the ultimate, like, stop. Like, we need to go right now to Graceland. So I remember, like, driving back to Memphis, which is like 90 minutes to get back to Memphis to go to Graceland, to take the tour. And, you know, Graceland's cool, but those tours, I have to say that those tours are like three, four hours long. So it's like that. That was like, when I, like, I got my, like, Elvis education right there. My master's degree in Elvis on the Graceland tour. But no Elvis. Like, yeah, they play as. I mean, the other cool thing is, like, you think you go there to be. All right, like, let's go into. On an important day, like Elvis. The day Elvis died is like, typically actually, like, the biggest celebration day or obviously a birthday is big. But it's like, every week there's something Elvis, right? Like, oh, this is the week that Elvis performed his first guitar concert at Mila Middle School. Like, and then it's like, cool, we're all going to go to Milo Middle School and, like, see the celebration. So Elvis is everywhere. But it was fun. I don't know. Chapter we learned a lot about Elvis on my.

[Chapman]

My favorite factoids that didn't make it in. And I have no idea if it's true or not, but our main character called Kevin Curtis is a.

[Ash]

Has a foot fetish.

[Chapman]

He is. He is very into. Into women's. It's part of the documentary. And I remember him telling me that he has it on good authority that he heard it from family members very close to Elvis that Elvis as well, had a foot fetish. Felt like it was another thing that spiritually connected him to the King. And I always. And I always found that always made me laugh. And also one of my favorite images. The first time we got there, I didn't even know it was Elvis week, which is like, people fly from all over the world. And I remember just like, walking by and, like, passing a man in Elvis outfit. Elvis impersonator.

[Ash]

And then he turned the corner and.

[Chapman]

See another Elvis impersonator. And then I turned another corner and I saw, like, an elves impersonator, like, drinking coffee and smoking a cigarette outside the coffee shop. And, like, these images, it was just such bizarre imagery. And then finally Mac told me that. That it's Elvis week. And that's why there was literally hundreds of Elvis impersonators. Just walking around the town.

[Ash]

But it was like. It was like. I don't know if you see it being John Malkovich, but there's this scene where he walks in and it's just. It's just a restaurant full of John Malkovich. That was. That was our experience.

[McLean]

What a time.

[Elena]

No, seriously.

[McLean]

So setting Elvis aside for a moment, going back to the meat of the story, which of course includes Elvis, I read that you guys typically look for three things going into filmmaking. Do you mind telling us a little bit about what they are and how they kind of applied to this story?

[Chapman]

Yeah, I think, like, we talked about a little bit, but we're always looking for, like, a strong setting, a strong location. I think, especially for me, there's so much stuff on Instagram and Tick Tock and you see so many images that when I watch a documentary, I really want to travel to places I have not been and learn about them and learn about the culture. So setting location is always really important to us. And no better place than the birthplace of the king of rock and roll. And then I think we're always looking for larger than life characters in a way. I found when you have subjects who can be brutally open and honest about their wants, their desires, their insecurities, their failures, their accomplishments, that it really allows them to, like, hold a mirror up to the audience and for some reason allows us as the audience, I think, to think about our own lives and think what are our desires and wants and needs. And having someone larger than life perform that role, I've just always found it makes it easier for the audience to kind of think about their own lives in a way. And so we're always looking for, like, really interesting characters. And then I think we're also always looking for incredible twists and turns and stories where you do not know where they are going next. And there's kind of two types of documentary filmmaking. You have documentary films that are very, like, activist driven with an important message, and those are super important for so many reasons. I just think the only thing as an audience is you already know what the message is. You already know who the good people are, who the bad people are, and it's just a different viewing experience. So for us, I think we're always looking to subvert expectations, keep the audience on their toes. Those we never want the audience to think they know where the story is going next. And so finding locations, great towns, great settings, great characters, and then a great story. Twists and turns is kind of like the three things I think we're always.

[Ash]

Looking for.

[Unknown]

One of my goals this year is to create a better morning routine and for me that means actually eating breakfast before I actually head out for the day. Personally I love a breakfast Sammy and with herobread I can focus on my health goals and still indulge in that soft fluffy experience that I love in bread guilt free. Like enjoying some avocado toast or even if I want to carry that guilt free bread life into dinner making with a grilled cheese to dip in some cozy soup. Herobred's products are delicious and flavorful but have ultra low net carbs, zero grams of sugar and are high in fiber. I made some yolky eggs, I toasted up a bagel to dip in said yolks and oh my God it was so I was really shocked at how fluffy that bagel was. I felt like I was eating a tasty pillow of clouds. You would never know that it's low net carb and high fiber bread from the texture of it and it makes me really happy knowing that their products are loaded with fiber because so many of us are not getting enough fiber in our day. There are also monthly small batch drops of indulgent flavors like their 4 gram nutcarb bagel. And new surprises coming this year HeroBred is offering 10% off your order. Go to Hero Co and use code morbid at checkout. That's morbid at H E R O. Millions of Americans are seeing the benefits of medications like Ozempic and Zepbound, but many of them are overpaying by thousands of dollars a year. These GLP1 medications used for diabetes, weight loss and more may not always be covered by your insurance, but GoodRx can help. GoodRx is free and easy to use. Just search for any prescription on the GoodRx website or app, get your coupon and show it to the pharmacist. Check Goodrx and see how you could save an average of $235 every month on GLP1s at pharmacies including Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, Publix, Albertsons, Kroger and many more. And remember, GoodRx works whether you have insurance or not. And even if you do have insurance, GoodRx could beat your co pay price. That happens to me every single time I check Gutterx.

[McLean]

It's always beating my co pay price.

[Unknown]

Which is really nice. For savings on GLP1 medications or any other prescriptions, check GoodRx go to GoodRx.com GLP that's GoodRx.com GLP.

[Ash]

And I think you, like, touched on something interesting too, which it's like, you know, I think we're actually at, like, an interesting time in the world of documentaries and documentary filmmaking, especially at the major platforms where, you know, I think in the last couple years, it's like, fair to say that there is a shift towards stories that people already have some familiarity or an understanding of. And those documentaries are fascinating, too, that are on like, hey, you think you know this topic, but let me go ahead and subvert your expectations or present a little bit of a different side or something like that. It's a little bit of a different type of documentary because those comes with its own challenges and obstacles. Over the course of Chapman and my own career, I think that we've tended to gravitate towards documentaries that most people, and by most people, I mean 90, 95% of people, if you stop them on the street and ask them about the 2013 rising presidential assassination story, they wouldn't really know what that story is. So they're coming to it for the first time. Wild Wild country was like that, too. Like, yes, people in Eastern Oregon certainly remembered the Rash Nishis if they were around and cognizant in the 80s. But for most people where I come from in Southern California, my age obviously had no recognition. And it's interesting because I think that those stories that have the familiarity, that have a name, that have. Have, you know, just a little bit more name recognition usually do tend to do a little bit better on these platforms. So I think that's the way that the industry is going. But for Chap and I, that's always like, the big question mark is like, do we want to make a story that people think that they know and figure out how to make it interesting from there? Or do we want to make a story that you're going to have not zero familiarity with, and hopefully you're just along for the ride for all these twists and turns.

[McLean]

You know, that's the thing, because I remember hearing, of course, about, like, the 2013 presidential attempted assassination, but. But that was the very tip of the iceberg in this story. Everything. Every time I thought I knew where this story was going, it was like, nope, we're going this way now.

[Chapman]

Yeah, that's part of the fun, I think. Or at least when I'm an audience member, like, that's what I enjoy. I like being on the edge of my seat. I like thinking that, okay, I know who this character is, and then, boom, they end up turning out to be something Totally different or unexpected. And we're trying to. I mean, it can sound crude, but we are trying to make entertainment. People have busy lives. There's a lot of things you can spend your time doing. I think we take the responsibility seriously that if someone's going to sit down and press play, we feel we owe it to people to really give them an experience. And sometimes we do better at that than others. But that's always the goal, at least is every time you press play, we want to make sure you know, you're going, you're going on a ride.

[Elena]

I think you guys are in the right mindset, though, with the way you do it, with like, taking a story that, that most people will not be familiar with. Because, I mean, personally, I love those much more because I love being able to be like, I just heard this story and none of you are gonna know about it, but I need to tell you everything. And now you need to watch this. And I think it's also. I think people are starting to have an appetite for more original and unique content too. Like, slowly I think we're gonna get there because I think people are getting sick of even, like, you know, the fictionalized, like, narrative movies that are just kind of like being redone and it's the same thing. And people are looking for original stories and original content. So I think, like, slowly people are going to come around to realizing that, like, you want to learn something new, like, you want to go into something totally blind.

[Chapman]

Yeah, we definitely hope so. And I think I'm the same way you are. Like, when I see something about a story I didn't know, like, I'm so much more inclined to want to call up my friends or my family and talk about it and discuss it and share it. And to me, that's like the, the best part about doing this is talking to your colleagues at work and sharing stories about what you've seen and what impacted you.

[Ash]

So I hope so.

[Chapman]

We love these kind of like, off the beaten path weird stories and hopefully we'll be able to continue doing them.

[McLean]

I think you guys are kind of definitely starting to become known for the weirder stories and just wild, fascinating documentaries.

[Ash]

Our mom certainly thinks so. She's like, oh, God, what's this other one now? She's. She wants us to do like a great, easy, like a. Like a cooking documentary on. Yeah, to make a great. Yeah, you could.

[McLean]

But you could flip it on its head. Discover something crazy about cooking.

[Ash]

There's knives in kitchens.

[Chapman]

All right.

[Ash]

Things can happen.

[McLean]

Oh, yeah. So what was different, though, about making this film than some others that you've made in the past.

[Ash]

I think we kind of touched on.

[Chapman]

It a little bit, but it quickly became clear that it was going to be impossible to, like, fact check or investigate a lot of these claims, you know? And so in the beginning, we were sitting there kind of twiddling our thumbs, like, what do we do here? And I just think we decided early on, like, let's just fully embrace the madness and the mythology and the storytelling, and it's such a part of the culture and these characters, like, let's find a way to make that a tension point of the story. Is Kevin telling the truth? You know, the story starts early on with him finding a severed head and in a morgue in a hospital, which kind of kickstarts the whole path to the presidential assassination. And so, so much of it for us became exploring the humans inside of the story and maybe less the actual, like, true crime facts, if that makes sense. And so I think that's what made this one a little bit more difficult to make, is.

[Ash]

Yeah, well, it's like, kind of on that point, like, what Chapman and I would like. Like, we always talked about, especially with our editor, Neil Michael John, who was like, a big part of our character, and our producer, Juliana, and. And. And everyone on our team is like. Because we've made true crime documentaries before, but we learned, like, conspiracy is actually like, a weird cousin to true crime, where it's like, true crime, you can rely on facts and, like, motivation of individuals. And, like, that is a part of the fun game of, like, who done it? You know, and we've made those documentaries, and we love making those documentaries. Conspiracy is like this weird amalgamation of, like, well, a. The conspiracy itself is super confusing.

[Chapman]

So you.

[Ash]

But. But it needs to be, like, accurately or not accurate, but it needs to be, like, comprehendable in the editing of it, right? Like, it needs to be comprehendable to, like, a wide audience to understand what the conspiracy is. But then there's this whole side game of, like, yeah, I mean, this is conspiracy, real or not. And then you're like, cool. That's a whole nother thing that we need to, like, kind of dive into and, like, balance the scales a little bit of, like, maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But, like. And then. And then what was weird about this is, like, the whole conspiracy of Kevin's Conspiracy and body parts conspiracy, and then, like, Everett's conspiracy that was above Kevin's conspiracy. It got, like, cold in the sense of, like, Wait, what is real and what is not? And, like, are people even understanding what the conspiracy is?

[Chapman]

So.

[Ash]

So I feel like that was the. The genre of, like, we made kind of a weird conspiracy comedy documentary, but the conspiracy was. Was the weird part to. To figure out was certainly my experience. But I didn't mean to cut you off chat, but I felt like that.

[Chapman]

I don't even think we succeeded at that either.

[Elena]

Yeah, I know.

[Ash]

I watch it and I'm like, still confused with the storyline.

[McLean]

I spent three years, but you learn.

[Elena]

Something new every time you watch it. Cause you're like, oh, yeah.

[Chapman]

I'm like, oh, maybe it doesn't now after watching for the hundredth time, there's.

[Elena]

Nothing better than a town and people with, like, deep, deep lore that you can't verify that it's all just, like, hearsay 100%. And it gets, like, packed pass through, like, telephone style.

[Ash]

That was my favorite part.

[Chapman]

It's like all of them would kind of share the same story, but, like, little details would always change.

[McLean]

And so I was like, their own flair to it.

[Chapman]

Some kernel of truth here, you know, but it gets built upon and built upon. And for us, that. That was part of the fun.

[Ash]

And I just think the other kind.

[Chapman]

Of hard thing about this one was like, I'm not too worried about spoilers now. It's been out for a while. But yeah, is like, the first half of the documentary is kind of made to convince you that that one person committed this crime. And then there's kind of like a big rug pull and a reveal that it was possibly someone else who had framed him. And so I think we had never really seen that in a documentary before. Like, how do we convince an audience 100% that this guy did it when.

[Ash]

He didn't, you know, is difficult, you.

[Chapman]

Know, and so that was a process that took us a while to kind of figure out. But. But like I said, I think those kind of reveals and twists and turns make it more fun. So it was difficult, but I think it made it more fun to make also.

[McLean]

Yeah, our producer for our show, we watched it at the same time. We came into the office the next day, and we're like, we're sitting here watching this, and you actually forget that the man who's talking most of the time you're sitting there and you're like, wait, how is he not in prison every now and again. But then you're like, okay, wait, but there's so much happening that it doesn't even matter. We'll get there.

[Chapman]

Yes, it's the like. Like, we set up the crime earlier, which is someone tried to kill the president. And then it cuts to a guy swimming in his outdoor pool who did it. So we. You kind of know right away, like, okay, I maybe didn't do it or what. But then our job was like, okay, but now we're going to convince you for the next 90 minutes that this guy most likely did do this. And I think a lot of people have the experience you did, which, like, he's not in jail, but, like, a lot of this is adding up and. And this is getting very strange. And then I think you learn, obviously, that he was framed and set up. And then you get to learn and meet the new character, which was fun for us.

[Ash]

I mean, it was funny, too, because this documentary was almost like three parts. It's. Sorry. In terms of the production, which is like, we went and made it all Kevin Curtis documentary. And then this middle part was like, federal law enforcement going and interviewing them because they have a whole perspective and A to Z journey themselves. And then the third part was obviously Everett Dutchke, who is in prison and all the prison phone calls that we did with him. But it was interesting. Like, federal law enforcement without, like, blatantly saying it. I could tell there was a little bit of understandable sensitivity of like, listen, we do a lot of cases and of. We understand that you want to make a documentary on the one out of 1,000 that we arrested the wrong guy. And we know that, and we do. And they're like, you know, we're not sure about the concept of this documentary because we did get it wrong. And we don't want to come off as completely inept at our jobs. And I remember being like, I don't think that's going to be the case. Like, I think a lot of people are going to understand, like, why you made the first arrest. You did. Like, at least, like, that's the structure of how we're making the documentary, you know, and it's been interesting because as since the documentary has come out, I've very. I've never ever, like, oh, yeah, Like. Like, FBI really messed up this one, I think. I think everyone kind of knows, like, follows the journey and gets. Why certainly arrested. Arrested Kevin, you know.

[Elena]

Yeah. There's never once during it that you're like, wow, like, the FBI is the problem here. Like, you're just like, yeah, I get it.

[Chapman]

I love it in the third episode when FBI agents, like, reluctant, reluctantly admits that it was a pretty good frame job.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Chapman]

I always Kind of. I always kind of appreciated that. That.

[McLean]

That was so good. And I love when Kevin is like, I don't even like rice. Like, what are you talking about?

[Ash]

That was the exonerating fact of the entire investigation, was the fact that it was that, too.

[McLean]

It's perfect. Perfect for the.

[Elena]

It's like, I don't think this guy made rice.

[Ash]

That was one of our, like, early on with just, like, pre. Not pre interviewing, but, you know, it's like, you go to dinner with Laura or, you know, Jack the brother or Holland or blah, blah, blah, and, like. Or the kids, Kevin's kids. And, like, you kind of definitely, like, picked up early that, like, how excited they got when they found out how hard it is to make ricin because, like, me, I was not a biology major. So it's like rice in I. It's nothing.

[Chapman]

Kevin's intelligence for anyone, but.

[Ash]

But, like, they were like.

[Elena]

I don't think any of us know.

[Ash]

Like, seeing the, like, chemical compound designs, and they're like, that's innocent, dude. There's no way. There's no way.

[Elena]

Like, no.

[McLean]

Maybe it's the guy holding the Mensa card over there.

[Elena]

Yeah, I think it's men over here.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[McLean]

That's the other thing, too. Too. I like how you guys kind of sprinkle in a little bit about Everett Dutchke, like, in part one and part two, and then part three comes along and you're like, oh, yeah, I remember that guy just from a little bit of parts one and two.

[Chapman]

Yeah, that's really interesting you bring that up, because that was honestly, like, a huge discussion point for us while making this. In the initial cuts, you didn't learn anything about him until. Until it was revealed that Kevin had been framed. But then it started to feel like, a little cheap, where you're like, okay, wow, it's shocking, but I don't know this guy at all. And so really tried to sprinkle him in a few times throughout. I honestly wish we could have figured out more ways to do it. I think it. I think it would have been interesting to even have done it a couple more times, but it was a little bit like an Agatha Christie novel where you're like, yes, you have to set up the characters and the suspects. And, like, that's actually really hard to do in documentary because you can't just make things up and writing it.

[Ash]

So.

[Chapman]

But I'm glad that you pointed that out because it was. It was fun to kind of find subtle ways to sprinkle in the real. The real suspect. Throughout, so that when it's revealed that it's him, you do have a little bit of a memory of who he is.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's effective. It is definitely effective.

[Unknown]

Getting your license is like super exciting. And then getting your first car and all that. What's not? Like, the most exciting part of all of that is insurance. I remember being like, where do I even start? Why are there 452 insurance companies? Which one actually cares about me?

[McLean]

I'm so stressed.

[Unknown]

Well, I wish that when I was 16 years old, insurify was an insurance comparison site that I had known about, but now it is is. Insurify is an insurance comparison site and it has dozens of top insurers compete for your business, which drives the prices down. Insurify lets you compare real time quotes from dozens of top insurers, including the names that you know and that you trust. The entire Insurfy process is handled completely online. Amazing. That means no annoying phone calls, no ridiculous fees, no spam, ever.

[McLean]

Back in my day, I had to.

[Unknown]

Call so many people.

[Ash]

Ugh.

[Unknown]

But get this. With Insurify, you can get insurance coverage in as little as 10 minutes. Do you understand how groundbreaking that is? Get to insurify.com to compare car insurance quotes in real time and start saving today. That's insurify.com insurify.com Average potential savings based on initial quotes received by 183,234 customers seeking insurance through Insurify. Actual savings may vary depending on state of residence, individual circumstances, coverage selections, and insurance provider savings results are not guaranteed.

[McLean]

Going off that a little bit more. There's so many things like, we're talking about everything right now. There's so many things that happen in this case, and you guys really do an amazing job of connecting it all by the end. What was the process like? Did you, like, lay everything out on the floor? Were you moving things around?

[Chapman]

One of the fun parts about this crime is that, you know, so three people got this poison in the mail, were victims of it. These three victims were, you know, major enemies, so to speak, of Paul Kevin Curtis, the man that was framed, which is why the FBI obviously thought it was Kevin. But what made it interesting is that you learned that these three characters were also every it. The guy who actually did send the isim were enemies of his as well. And so this is where it started to get a little complex in terms of, like, wow, they share the same enemies. Like, how can we set this up in a way and organize it in a way that audiences can Kind of understand that component of it. And so, you know, we. We had the note cards. We had. Yes. We had the string on the walls. I remember walking in, watching Mac lose his mind because he was in charge of doing most of the research, and there are times where Mac would just start ranting. And I was like, I'm not following anything you're saying.

[McLean]

Right.

[Chapman]

But sure enough, like I said, I.

[Ash]

Think we kind of figured it out by the end.

[Chapman]

But I'm still not 100% convinced that we even know all the facts of everything that happened.

[McLean]

I don't think you ever could.

[Elena]

No.

[McLean]

No. But you did do a great job of connecting it.

[Elena]

It's easy to follow, though, for sure. By the end of it, you get what's happening. For sure.

[Ash]

Yeah. And like Chef said, my dad was a screenwriter, and I think it's an Ernest Hemingway quote where he said, writing is rewriting. But I think that's the same thing with, like, editing. And that was certainly. Our experience was, like, more than other documentaries we've made. We have. We really planned the structure a lot on this one. We had. We were moving sections around, like, to just kind of set it up, because to go a little deeper on something that we've touched on is the concept of, like, hey, we wanted the audience to really think Kevin did this by the time the rug pull happens at the end of episode two, where you find out he didn't do it. But that is as much of a plot game, plot A, A to B to C to D, on plot points as it is like, a psychological descent in Kevin's mind as you feel like you really like for someone to do a presidential assassination, make rice and put it in envelopes and mail to the president, like. Like, I think you really need to feel like that person is psychologically capable of wanting to do something like that, you know? And that was certainly, like, a big part of the editing and a lot of the aesthetic and the music and everything else that kind of went into the series is, like, not just explaining, like, yeah, how. How kind of like, how Kevin gets to this point, you know, and it's a little bit of a personal journey that. That you follow with him to go on. But then again, the. The weirdest part of making this documentary was, like, technically none of that is true. Kevin didn't do this, so. Oh, so you're kind of, like, always faking your way through to make it feel like he did in a certain way just to set up the gag that he didn't do it. So. Which Maybe it was worth it. Maybe it was. Maybe. This is the stupidest documentary.

[Chapman]

When you explain it, I'm like, that sounds so dumb.

[Ash]

It sounds like, so stupid. Like, you guys spent three years of your life.

[Chapman]

Let us do this.

[Ash]

To tell, like one joke. Like one joke.

[Elena]

It was such a good joke, though.

[McLean]

No, it's so worth it.

[Elena]

He gave us so much to work with.

[Ash]

You're making us feel better.

[Elena]

Fake your way.

[Ash]

Slowly depressed on this podcast.

[Chapman]

Just real.

[Ash]

Wait, how stupid our documentary is?

[McLean]

No, it's amazing. I. I dedicated probably four hours total just sitting in my living room on a snow day. I was like, I think this is the best doc series I've ever watched.

[Ash]

That's very nice of you. That feels good.

[McLean]

That was great in the editing process. One of my last questions for you is, was there anything that didn't make it in that you wish had or that, you know, just couldn't have of?

[Chapman]

There's actually two sections that we worked on quite a bit that ended up not making the cut for one reason or the other one was that we had, like, a pretty interesting conversation and look into mental health and. And Kevin's mental health and how his family feels about what he's struggling with. And Kevin had like, a very frank and honest discussion about medications he's been on and how certain medications have made him feel over the years and why he doesn't want to take certain medications. And it was just like a really raw and honest look into it. I think for time reasons, we are never able to quite figure out how to get it in there, but I thought it was like a really kind of just like beautifully honest look at what he talks about, his struggles, what that experience has been for family members. I think one of the. One of the real, real first reasons we wanted to make this was when we were researching, I kind of became obsessed with this Reddit thread. And it was for family members who had lost loved ones to the QAnon conspiracy. And it was just their point of view. It wasn't the point of view of the conspiracy theorist. And it, like, you would read these posts and it was such a strange combination of being, like, really fucking hilarious and equally heartbreaking. And I'm like, this is such a odd thing because it's so easy to talk about conspiracy theorists or this and that, but when it's a wife or a husband or a brother or a best friend, that's a little bit of a different experience to watch someone you love go through this. And so that was kind of diving into not Only a conspiracy theorist story, but what is it like for the people around this person was important to us. And I think the kind of, kind of conversation and the mental health really kind of played into that. I wish we could have included it, but we couldn't for time. And then the other interesting one was, you know, in 1992, Kevin, our main character had, and this is 20 years before the rice and ascent to Obama, had a standoff with the Chicago Police SWAT team and had driven to an ex girlfriend's house and entered the home with a gun and then was threatening to kill himself inside the home. And it turned into a big standoff. And this was also a big look into Kevin's mental health and what he struggled with. And it was also a big piece of evidence that the FBI used in the presidential ricin attack to say, look, this guy's unstable. This is why we believe that he did this. And so all that was like a really interesting storyline and thread that would have added, I think, another layer to the onion, but ended up kind of on the cutting room floor.

[Ash]

Yeah, people thought there are too many layers to the onions already. No more layers. It was unique. Steve Holland could be a character in a feature length documentary. His story from. And I know he's a larger than life character, but he also wielded incredible effective power in the Mississippi state legislature and is responsible for like an array of like unbelievable programs. Like, for the people of Mississippi. For the state of Mississippi. Like, I, it was always like. And I, I think every filmmaker has this and we produce as much as we direct. So I've been on the producing side of these conversations where it's like you're with a filmmaker that's like, oh my God, I could do like six parts. I could do eight parts. Like, there is a bit of a missed exploration in the state of Mississippi that to this day fascinates me. Like, and it's hard to explain unless you've gone to that state in a way, but it is like, like every left, right turn you make, every. You can take a drive, a highway, go anywhere on the highway. Like, it is a. The most fertile ground for like such fascinating, fascinating stories and people that I think there's a reason that like William Faulkner was from Oxford. I think there's a reason that there's like this Southern noir that like eccentricity is a religion down there that like they can tell stories the way they do. And it was just. I almost felt like we were always having to restrain ourselves from being like, oh my God, do we go make a 15 minute documentary on this section of Mississippi that's kind of tangentially tied. And of course you, like, never do, because eventually you're like, hey, we're making a Netflix documentary. And you really need to keep the narrative, like, as tight as possible, otherwise people will click off. But it was a unique experience just spending so much time down there and just like, God, I wish we could have done like eight parks on this state and connected all these crazy pieces of information together. Another.

[McLean]

You're gonna have to go back.

[Ash]

I know it's calling me back.

[McLean]

I never thought it would, but I'm.

[Ash]

Talking myself into it right now.

[McLean]

I do think even with the things that you didn't get to include, like that conversation with Kevin about his medical history, his mental health history, and even, you know, the incident that happened with his girlfriend, I think the conversations that you did include with one of his girlfriends and even his kids, those conversations that really shined through and kind of highlighted the.

[Elena]

The.

[McLean]

The mental health section that you didn't feel like you didn't get to put in there. That's really, like.

[Elena]

It was.

[Chapman]

That's really. That's really cool to hear. Yeah, I think, like, a lot of it is implied or you kind of pick up on kind of naturally. And I think, yeah, some of my favorite sections, like, yeah, there's a lot of funny, dark, hilarious stuff, but some of my favorite stuff was the stuff with his kids and friends and family and hearing about their perspectives and kind of what they've been through. I think it just kind of added a level of. Of heart and humanity to the story. And I'm glad to hear that. Even if we weren't able to include those sections, it still kind of is inferred and you kind of feel it in voice.

[McLean]

Yeah, definitely. All right, I have two questions left for you guys. One is serious and one is kind of kidding. When do you think Kevin Curtis's Missing Pieces is going to hit Netflix and are you going to help him work on it?

[Ash]

That is an amazing. You know, what's funny is. So I remember Kevin when he sat down and told us, like, listen, he's written this book called Missing Pieces. This. I will say that when he handed it to me, it was a little shorter than I expected. It was like, you know, I was expecting that. I was hoping for the. The tomb of. Of. Of research, and it was a little thinner than that. So I was like, okay, I gotta. Gotta figure this out.

[Chapman]

Work to do.

[Unknown]

Work on it a little bit.

[Ash]

He's got.

[Elena]

He's gotta work.

[Ash]

You need to like, pump up the word count here just, just a little bit. But he was the one that said, like, hey, after all, I, I, I'm thinking about the story. We'd been interviewing him.

[Chapman]

He's like, I've come the conclusion that.

[Ash]

Missing Pieces is not a missing piece to my body parts conspiracy, but it's something in my personal life and it's, it's been family, you know. And so I was like, wow, that was like, very poignant and powerful. And Kevin could just charm you like that, like, and genuinely too, like, like a sincere guy. I wonder.

[Chapman]

But it, the whole thing started because the Secret Service stole his manuscript. You know, they had raided his home.

[Ash]

And it, yeah, there was something so.

[Chapman]

Funny to me that, like, it just feels like something he would make up or say. And then it's like 100% true that they took this hard drives and he makes his manuscript and had to rewrite it from.

[Ash]

Yeah. Maybe that's why it's smaller than I expected. Maybe, maybe the Secret Service is sitting on the, the real expansive missing pieces that's out there. But I remember Justice Free missing pieces.

[Chapman]

I think the government needs to release.

[Ash]

I remember going out to dinner with Kevin's family members and I would tell them that story about missing pieces. And it's not like Kevin was hiding that from them or something, but I was like, hey, I think that, like, Kevin's in a spot where this is, he's like, this is where he's at right now. And I found this really beautiful. And every single person I went out to dinner with said, that's, that's a New York Times bestseller. So that's, that's what I hope it is. I hope it's a New York Times bestseller. Is I want what that family wants. But I doubt it.

[Chapman]

He's an incredible storyteller. He's got a imagination. He's really funny with work words. I'm rooting for him. I'm hoping he can finish three missing pieces.

[Ash]

Someone needs to file a Freedom of Information act to get the.

[Elena]

Yeah, to get the big one. Yes.

[McLean]

Somebody listens. Get on that.

[Elena]

Let's go.

[McLean]

And then last question for you guys. I am so excited to see whatever you make next. Is there anything that you have in the works or anything you want to tease or plug?

[Ash]

The thing that we're working on right now is we are working on, it's a big doc series for Netflix. We were able to announce it, I think, on Christmas Day. But like we said, we grew up with sports. And we are going to do very different than Kings of Tupelo, so I'll brace you for that. It is very not. It'll be interesting to be like this time, but it is a 10 part series on Jerry Jones, Jimmie Johnson, the. Basically the, the. The. The Dallas Cowboys of the 1990s and Jerry Jones story. It's a big. And we're partnered with Skydance on NFL Films and we're doing it with Netflix. And in the sports world, this story is a bit of a white whale because Jerry and Jimmy. Jimmy was the coach, Jerry's the owner. They have an interesting backstory where they won Super Bowls together and then they went their separate ways where we're able to interview all these characters along with Troy Aikman and Mike Lervin and Emmett Smith. So it's a very sports one. We have more volumes of Untold coming out, but we ebb and flow like sports. Sports documentaries are stuff that we love making and there's just a huge audience for that. That and it's a great part of the business that we do. And then once we spend a couple years doing sports stuff, we always end up gravitating back towards like Kings of Tupelo or Wild Wild country or. Or something that's a little bit more off the beaten path, but chap. Any. Anything else to mention?

[Chapman]

I just remember being like, man, it's so weird being a documentary filmmaker because we went from filming inside Kevin's camper to like the next week we were filming Jerry Jones on his private jet and just like amazing. Such much. This is too weird. Our lives are too strange sometimes.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Chapman]

We're excited for Dallas Cowboys. It's coming out this summer and then we're just in the early stages of researching some more strange off the beaten path stories and stuff.

[McLean]

Amazing. Well, thank you guys so much for all the extra insight.

[Unknown]

I loved.

[McLean]

Yeah, so much. It was great.

[Ash]

So much for having us.

[Chapman]

Thanks for watching and thanks for all the nice words we had. Really fun that.

[McLean]

That was so much fun chatting with them. I loved that.

[Elena]

They were amazing.

[McLean]

Yes, definitely. So guys, if you have not yet watched Kings of Tupelo, you got to get on that. It's still on Netflix. It's a three part series. And still somehow, even throughout that hour long conversation with Chapman and McLean, we really only hit the tip of the iceberg.

[Elena]

Oh yeah, it's going to. It's one of those that you're going to want to tell everybody about after you watch it.

[McLean]

It definitely is. So look out for that we hope.

[Elena]

You keep listening and we hope you.

[McLean]

Keep it weird.

[Chapman]

Sat.

[McLean]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad.

[Unknown]

Free right now by joining Wonder A.

[McLean]

Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Unknown]

A few miles from the glass spires of Midtown Atlanta lies the south river forest. In 2021 and 2022, the woods became a home to activists from all over the country who gathered to stop the nearby construction of a massive new police train facility nicknamed Cop City.

[Ash]

At approximately 9:00 this morning, as law.

[Chapman]

Enforcement was moving through various sectors of the property, an individual without warning shot a Georgia State Patrol trooper.

[Unknown]

This is We Came to the Forest, a story about resistance.

[Chapman]

The abolitionist mission isn't done until every prison is empty and shut down.

[Unknown]

Love and fellowship.

[Chapman]

It was probably the happiest I've ever.

[Unknown]

Been in my life and the lengths will go to protect the things we hold closest to our hearts. Follow We Came to the Forest on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of We Came to the Forest early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus.