Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)

Summary

Morbid Podcast Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2) - Detailed Summary

In Episode 653 of Morbid, hosted by Ash and Elena from the Morbid Network | Wondery, the duo delves deep into the eerie histories and supernatural tales surrounding some of America's most infamous lakes. Balancing intense true crime narratives with chilling folklore, Ash and Elena guide listeners through a journey of tragedy, mystery, and the unexplained phenomena that persist to this day.

---

1. Opening Banter: Burps and Office Drama ([02:02] - [07:51])

The episode opens with Ash humorously addressing her colleagues and friends about being bullied in the office due to her and Elena's frequent burping, setting a lighthearted yet twisted tone. This playful exchange not only showcases the hosts' chemistry but also prepares listeners for the blend of dark stories and comedic relief that characterizes the podcast.

Ash ([02:02]): "Today I'm being bullied in the office, everybody."

Elena ([04:03]): "She sounds like she's gonna vomit every time she burps. But we needed to say. We needed to really describe them. The reason is not like, oh, there's liquid involved. It's like, no, you're gonna throw up."

---

2. Grace Brown's Tragic Murder and Haunting at Big Moose Lake ([12:10] - [30:00])

Historical Context and The Crime

Ash and Elena recount the harrowing story of Grace Brown, a 20-year-old dairy farm girl from South Otselic, New York, who met a tragic end in 1906. Grace moved to Cortland to live with her sister and secured a job at the Gillette Skirt Factory, where she began a tumultuous affair with Chester Gillette, the owner's nephew.

Chester, portrayed as a manipulative and irresponsible man, initiated a secretive relationship with Grace despite dating other women openly. The relationship deteriorated when Grace became pregnant, leading Chester to plan a "romantic getaway" under the guise of marriage intentions.

Elena ([14:00]): "Chester had to keep her on a leash a bit because he was a guy who wanted to have his cake and eat it, too."

However, during the boat ride to Big Moose Lake, Chester brutally attacked Grace with a horn-handled umbrella and a tennis racket before throwing her into the lake, resulting in her death. Chester fled the scene but was later apprehended, convicted of first-degree murder, and executed in 1908.

Lingering Spirits and Hauntings

The tragic tale doesn't end with Grace's death. According to local legends and historical accounts, Grace's spirit remains trapped at Big Moose Lake. Witnesses have reported seeing a ghostly apparition of a glowing woman wandering the shores or appearing in the halls of the Big Moose Inn where Grace stayed. These sightings are often accompanied by an overwhelming sense of sadness and dread, suggesting Grace's inability to move on from her untimely death.

Elena ([30:00]): "People keep seeing Grace. I hate that she's stuck there."

Moreover, Grace's story has permeated popular culture, inspiring folk songs like the "Ballad of Big Moose Lake," movies such as A Place in the Sun, and various literary and operatic works.

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3. Crater Lake: Legends, Plane Crashes, and Paranormal Activity ([35:12] - [68:40])

Formation and Mythological Origins

Transitioning to Oregon, Ash introduces Crater Lake National Park, home to America's deepest lake. The lake's formation is attributed to the colossal eruption of Mount Mazama over 7,700 years ago, which led to the creation of a caldera filled by rainwater and snowmelt.

The Klamath tribe's legends add a rich mythological layer to Crater Lake's history. The deity Lao, the God of the Underworld, fell in love with the tribe chief's daughter. When his intentions were rejected, Lao's rage triggered the volcanic eruption. The sky spirit Skell intervened, defeating Lao but leaving his head floating in the lake, a site believed to be haunted by his restless spirit.

Ash ([42:22]): "He had to keep her on a leash a bit because he was a guy who wanted to have his cake and eat it, too."

Plane Crashes and Mysterious Disappearances

Crater Lake's vast and deep waters have been the site of numerous plane crashes and unexplained disappearances. Notably:

• 1944 Grumman TBF Torpedo Bomber: During a World War II drill, one of the nine planes vanished without a trace, sparking theories ranging from government cover-ups to paranormal interference.

• 1975 Private Plane Crash: The wreckage of a private plane carrying pilot Dave Nun and two student pilots was found seven years later by a hiker, confirming initial suspicions of foul play after the family's foreboding premonitions and unexplained weather phenomena.

• 1945 Grumman Hellcat Fighter Plane: Ensign Frank Lupo's plane disappeared during a foggy flight, with remains only discovered decades later.

These incidents contribute to the lake's ominous reputation, with many believing that supernatural forces or curses are to blame for the persistent tragedies.

Paranormal Phenomena and Cryptids

Beyond human tragedies, Crater Lake is a hotspot for paranormal sightings and cryptid legends:

• Old Man of the Lake: Not a person, but a 30-foot mountain hemlock that inexplicably floats upright, believed by locals to control the weather. Attempts to restrain the "Old Man" resulted in sudden, violent weather changes, reinforcing his mythical status.

• Water Monsters (Wanster): Sightings of dragon-like creatures akin to Nessie have been reported multiple times. Witnesses describe seeing massive, serpentine shapes swimming beneath boats or emerging from the depths, instilling fear and fascination in equal measure.

• Phantom Island: An optical illusion where an island appears and disappears based on viewing angles and lighting, adding to the lake's mystique.

• Mysterious Fires and Apparitions: Rangers have encountered inexplicable campfires in restricted areas that vanish upon investigation. Ghostly apparitions of Grace Brown and other spirits are frequently reported, maintaining the lake's haunted legacy.

Elena ([61:16]): "Crater Lake is scary, guys."

Ash ([62:10]): "There have been at least two sightings of the monster. The Wanster."

Unsolved Murders and Modern Mysteries

The episode also touches upon unsolved murders near Crater Lake, such as the 1952 killings of Charles Culhane and Albert Jones on Annie Creek. The brutal execution-style murders remain unsolved, with clues pointing towards multiple perpetrators but no definitive conclusions. Modern investigators and enthusiasts continue to explore these cold cases, hoping to unearth new evidence or leads.

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4. Conclusion: Wrapping Up the Eerie Tales ([68:28] - End)

Ash and Elena conclude the episode by expressing their fascination with Crater Lake's dark history and supernatural elements. They tease potential follow-up episodes exploring additional mysteries and plane crashes, inviting listeners to stay tuned for more haunting stories.

Ash ([68:03]): "The old man is on my side. We'll never hold him down."

Elena ([68:36]): "And we hope you keep listening."

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 653 of Morbid masterfully intertwines true crime with local legends, painting a comprehensive picture of how places like Big Moose Lake and Crater Lake become vessels for both historical tragedies and enduring supernatural lore. Through meticulous research and engaging storytelling, Ash and Elena bring to life the haunting echoes that linger around these spooky lakes, leaving listeners both informed and spooked.

Transcript

[Ash]

Hey, weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait. Try Wondery. Today. You can join Wonder plus in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid network podcast. Let Audible expand your life by listening explore over 1 million audiobooks and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. You all in one easy app. Tap into your well being with advice and insight from leading professionals and experts on better health, relationships, career, finance, investing and more. Maybe you want to kick a bad habit or start a good one. Speaking of, I'm actually listening to the Secret on Audible. I love that title so much and 10 out of 10 recommend the soundscaping is pristine. Get advice and insight from leading professionals and experts on health, relationship, career, finance, investing, and more. There's so much opportunity to learn and more to imagine when you listen. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.commorbid there's a lot in life that feels like it should be guaranteed, but it just isn't. Things like your friends being on their way when they text you omw. Or getting out the same number of socks from the dryer that you put in. AT&T is introducing a new guarantee, the AT&T guarantee. Because there's a lot in life that's not guaranteed. The AT&T guarantee means connectivity you can depend on, deals you want and service you deserve, or they'll make it right. Visit att.comguarantee to learn more. AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details.

[Elena]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid.

[Ash]

It's morbid. And today I'm being bullied in the office, everybody.

[Elena]

Honestly, I can't even, like, say that's not happening.

[Ash]

No, I'm l I'm getting actively bullied by not only my sister, but also my employee and friend Mikey. I burped. And you know, people burp.

[Elena]

Okay, let me just.

[Ash]

No, hold on.

[Elena]

She's saying it like she burped. Oh, I just burped once.

[Ash]

No, I wasn't finished yet. But you're just still bullying me. No, we always burp a lot in here. It's kind of our thing. And Elena burps all the time and it literally Feels like it spra blood at people because they feel so sharp coming out of her fucking face. It's like. And you're like, oh, my God. Duck and cover. Somebody call someone. She's bleeding out of every orifice. And then I burp. And it. You know, they're a little liquidy, like. Like they're not liquidy. Like, I taste liquid. This is so gross. But, like, it's fine. But they. They sound a little yuccas. Elena has told me for all of my life. But they sound like the Bog of Eternal Stench. But today, everyone decided to go deeper. It's like an episode of the Vile in here. We're going deeper. And Mikey said to me. Mikey said to me, you know, actually, I feel pity for my mouth. Is my jaw unclicked from the top part, and it's on the floor. Pity. You pity me? He pities your burps, which are part of me. Which are part of me. And so I got upset with him, and then he was like, no, no, no, let me backtrack. Except dig my hole even further. And he said, do you know what it is? And I looked at him and I said, don't it up. Don't dig this hole. And this Got a power shovel. He said, I used to work in a hospital. What the does that have to do with anything? I sound like a hospital. This is like Mary Cosby telling me that I smell like hospital. So anyway, I'm upset.

[Elena]

Here's the thing.

[Ash]

You guys didn't think this episode was.

[Elena]

Gonna start like that. All of that was correct. What she says is true. True statement. Thank you. Except what? She sounds like she's gonna vomit every time she bursts. But we needed to say. We needed to really describe them. The reason is not like, oh, there's liquid involved. It's like, no, you're gonna throw up. And so we all brace. Like, she's gonna puke every time. And it's scary.

[Ash]

Yours are scary. Yours come out of nowhere.

[Elena]

And I agree.

[Ash]

And sometimes they sound like a. Like a shot. Yeah, like a. I'm like, here.

[Elena]

And herein lies the difference. I know.

[Ash]

I know, too.

[Elena]

I'm not dispelling. I'm not dispelling that description of my burps.

[Ash]

I'm not dispelling it, but it hurts my feelings. You just don't have as many feelings as I do, okay?

[Elena]

And the pity I feel is.

[Ash]

Cause I love you. I don't want you to feel gross. You're making me feel gross. Get out of here.

[Elena]

Scram.

[Ash]

She doesn't want to talk to you.

[Elena]

I'm getting fired by.

[Ash]

I usually fire Mikey on the rewatcher to listen to that, but today he's fired from every job. All of it. No, just kidding. Please, please continue working for us.

[Elena]

Don't leave.

[Ash]

Don't leave.

[Elena]

Please don't.

[Ash]

Anyways, I bet you never thought when you turned on Morbid today that we'd be depicting each other's burps.

[Elena]

Sorry, guys. It's been, you know, it's. Sometimes it'd just be like that.

[Ash]

Yeah, today's a loosey goosey episode. Anyway, I feel like it's gonna feel a lot like OG Morbid.

[Elena]

It is today. I think we're. We're feeling a. Oh, now you're gonna.

[Ash]

Cough during my episode. I pity you. I pity you. Is that a little cough you have today? I'm screaming. Oh my God, I'm literally crying. We have like a.

[Elena]

Like today's like a spooky episode, but also a true crime episode.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

For both of us. There's full true crime in here. This isn't just Spooky Yuki, but there's also Spooky Yuki.

[Ash]

So there's a little part of mine that I think, like I'm gonna give you like a preview, a brief overview of what happened, but I actually think I might cover part of mine on like a full blown out, like in depth another.

[Elena]

And mine is like, there's only so much information about it. So I got as much as I possibly could and I told the whole story.

[Ash]

It would have been a mini morbid had I not stepped up it.

[Elena]

It's true. It would have been a mini morbid. But you know what? But you know what? Maybe they'll come back.

[Ash]

Maybe.

[Elena]

Maybe. Maybe.

[Ash]

Wink, wink, notch nunch.

[Elena]

Maybe 2025 is a. Is a wild year. So maybe we'll see mini Morbids again someday. Maybe the theme song will come back.

[Ash]

Maybe.

[Elena]

I'm not making promise. I'm just saying it's possible.

[Ash]

We have to find the vial.

[Elena]

Do we have.

[Ash]

Do we have that?

[Elena]

Maybe you'll have to do it again.

[Ash]

I'll do it again.

[Elena]

An updated version.

[Ash]

Oh, maybe I'll like add a little flare onto it.

[Elena]

If that happens, we're just like, you.

[Ash]

Know, I'm gonna get back in the studio.

[Elena]

Yeah. Back in the stewed. You know, like really?

[Ash]

I like that. Forget the pod lab. I'm in the studio.

[Elena]

I'm in the stewed. Yeah. So maybe, I don't know. That's something to chew on, but gross. But Other than that we're trying to. Spring is almost here, Everybody. It's like 20 days to spring. And in New England over here. It's been fucking awful this winter. It's been fucking freezing and so goddamn dry that I've been sick the entire winter. I just got the neurovirus. In fact like, luckily knock on everything, we were able to contain it to just me. Which is always the goal. But. But yeah, it hasn't been a banner season for me. So. So I'm. I'm getting on my supplement game and getting myself out of this.

[Ash]

I'm telling you, you gotta start drinking Armor colostrum. I think it has saved me this winter because I did. I got neurovirus. But I didn't get any of the colds that you guys were all getting. I didn't get one cold this season.

[Elena]

I know.

[Ash]

Not one.

[Elena]

Yeah. It's crazy.

[Ash]

And it tastes like watermelon.

[Elena]

Yeah. That's true.

[Ash]

That's a win win right there. No colds. Plus watermelon.

[Elena]

Well, I've been drinking liquid IVs.

[Ash]

Liquid IVs are also great.

[Elena]

We love a liquid IV. We do. And I've just, you know, I've been doing some turmeric and elderberry and zinc.

[Ash]

And vitamin C. She got me on the turmeric.

[Elena]

All the, all the good things. Just trying to boost that immune, you know, immune system.

[Ash]

You gotta.

[Elena]

But going into. Because I want to go into spring and summer and fall and all the fun season.

[Ash]

Healthy, healthy, thriving.

[Elena]

You know. But I've been reading a couple books that are really good.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And I figured I'd just like quickly share them with you guys in case you're looking for something to read, do so. So I just read Fantastic Land by Mike Bokoven. It's really good. And the audiobook is fucking phenomenal. Nice. It's super fast paced. It's like. It's basically about a bunch of people getting stranded in a amusement park during a hurricane and having to survive. And it gets super gnarly.

[Ash]

I said nice, but nice. That's great.

[Elena]

That's great for them. Good for them. It was really good though. I thought it was really fun. If you're looking for something really fun, really dark, really fucked up.

[Ash]

Hell yeah.

[Elena]

And right now I'm reading this Wretched Valley by Jenny Kiefer. Ooh. And so far it's really good. Really spooky. I'm very intrigued by it.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Elena]

And we're just. I'm trying to get more leisure reading in done this year.

[Ash]

I'm also trying to do that.

[Elena]

I'll try to share our recommendations.

[Ash]

Yeah, I was. I told Elena about storygraph. It's, like, where you can log all your books, and it's woman owned, which I love. Love that I read. What have I read so far? I did so Thirsty by Rachel Harrison. I thought it was pretty good. It's like a quick read. It's fun. Yeah, Just like.

[Elena]

I love that.

[Ash]

Like, a fun vamp tale. And then I just started our book club book. Me and Elena have a book club with the two girls. One ghost.

[Elena]

Girlies Sabrina and Karina.

[Ash]

Our brother, Colton Coven.

[Elena]

Hell, yeah.

[Ash]

And we're reading God of the Woods. I just started it. I think you're gonna like it.

[Elena]

Yeah, I'm excited to start that one.

[Ash]

It's really good, and I've heard really good things about it.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So, yeah, I have a bunch on my. To be read.

[Elena]

Yeah. My entire, entire bookshelf is to be read.

[Ash]

I have a whole space on my bookshelf. That is. Yeah. Me and Drew went on a Barnes and Noble date the other day, and I was like, damn, I'm just buying all these books when I already have.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

400 that I haven't even read yet.

[Elena]

Oh, I have a problem.

[Ash]

But it's a fun thing to buy. It is.

[Elena]

I love books. Yeah. I will never regret buying too many books.

[Ash]

And something about Barnes and Noble. I'm like, I just want to buy everything here.

[Elena]

I just want to buy all the books.

[Ash]

All the books.

[Elena]

It's true.

[Ash]

It's great. I'm also on a Yellow Jackets kick. Me and Drew have literally flown through each season within, like, I think it took us maybe two weeks.

[Elena]

Yeah. It was actually, like, very impressive.

[Ash]

Yeah. There was.

[Elena]

How quickly you were able to.

[Ash]

We took some time off, you and I, for February vacation for the kids. And there was a couple nights that Drew and I just stayed up until, like, 3:00am like, weren't tired. Like, just stayed up. Yeah. And so we watched, like, a ton of Yellowjackets, and now we're up to, like, current.

[Elena]

You're caught up.

[Ash]

Yeah, we're caught up. And we got John and Elena to start watching it.

[Elena]

It's true. We're only on episode two because we can maybe only get one episode done a night. Like, we have to skip nights in between and stuff. So it will get there eventually. It'll take us a while, but so far, I really. I like it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I'm. I'm intrigued. I think so far, it really pops.

[Ash]

Off in, like, the middle to the End of the first season.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And then season three. So far I think it's only been three episodes. The fourth one, I think comes out tomorrow. Fourth episode. It's season three is like. I'm like, oh, it really goes there. Yeah.

[Elena]

I couldn't watch the plane crash scenes because it's a little too.

[Ash]

Yeah, I told her.

[Elena]

Too visceral.

[Ash]

I was like, tell, tell John, like the end.

[Elena]

Yeah. He told me when it was fine to watch again.

[Ash]

And then they do like the flashback. That's a scary ass plane crash. I'm sure I'm gonna be talking a lot about plane crashes today.

[Elena]

Cool.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That's fun.

[Ash]

Yeah. It's part of my lake.

[Elena]

It's part of your. Your lake lore.

[Ash]

My lake lore.

[Elena]

Correct.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And honestly, that brings us right to it that we're gonna be talking about some spooky lakes today.

[Ash]

Spooky lakes and like, kind of, for me, like, national park. Because my lake is in a national park.

[Elena]

Yeah. There you go.

[Ash]

Visit national parks and support them right now.

[Elena]

Yeah, Support them.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Hell yeah.

[Ash]

And keep them clean because a lot of people just got fired who were keeping them clean.

[Elena]

Yeah. So go take care of them.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And support them.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

Good call.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So do. I can start with mine if you want.

[Ash]

You better.

[Elena]

You better.

[Ash]

Bitch.

[Elena]

You better.

[Ash]

I was gonna say you better start. Bitch.

[Elena]

You better start. Bitch.

[Ash]

You want a listener tale? Not a listener tale. You want a spooky lake?

[Elena]

This is a spooky lake. But it's gonna start with a very real and very tragic murder.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

From 1906. Okay. So this is the story of Grace Brown's murder, and it is a very tragic one. Let's start at a great place which is the beginning.

[Ash]

I love starting there.

[Elena]

Grace grew up in South Oats, Otsellic, I think it is, in Chenango county in New York. When she was young, she grew up on a dairy farm and she attended school and graduated at 16 years old. She had a very, like, normal upbringing on a dairy farm. Very cute farm upbringing. Nice. All was well until she moved to Cortland and lived with her sister Ada. Now living with her sister, she needed to find a job and she found a good one. It turns out she ended up working at the Gillette skirt factory in Cortland. And upon beginning her employment there, she quickly became acquainted with the owner's nephew, Chester Gillette. He also worked there with her. He was from a wealthy family, but he was kind of all over the place. Like he was a little bit of a mess. He could never hold down anything steady. And he was kind of just living the high life with no responsibilities.

[Ash]

Fun.

[Elena]

So and he was also like very much like macking on all the girls there, but he really focused in on Grace. So his uncle had tried to get to help him on the straight and narrow and he offered him a job at the factory. That's how he got the job. It was good pay, it was full time. So he was fine to take it because also there was a lot of women working there.

[Ash]

That's kind of his ideal sit.

[Elena]

It really is. And he also probably liked the power he got from being like the nephew of the owner. Like it's the Gillette skirt factory and it's. He's Chester Gillette.

[Ash]

Like, and you don't have to do like anything probably.

[Elena]

Yeah. So it wasn't long before 20 year old Grace and she was 19 when they met, but 20 when she died. Okay. She was 20 year old Grace and 23 year old Chester began dating. It was a torrid affair, as all workplace affairs tend to be.

[Ash]

I love a torrid affair.

[Elena]

But it was all secret, of course. It was all very secret. Not just because they worked together, but because she was a dairy farm girl who came from a farm background. He was a wealthy man about town socialite who was sought after by every girl in the upper class in the area and every girl in every class in the area. He was essentially ashamed to be dating a young woman who was considered to be lower class, like lower social scale than he was.

[Ash]

What a douchebag.

[Elena]

A douchebag. He didn't want people knowing he was dating a factory farm girl.

[Ash]

Okay, then don't date a factory farm girl because she can probably do better than you anyway. So don't waste her.

[Elena]

She could have done so much better than him, I guarantee you. He's scum between a troll's toes. Not only was he keen to keep this thing under wraps, but he was also freely and openly dating and sleeping with other women right in front of Grace. Grace was not pleased about this and expressed this displeasure often, but he didn't give a shit. He just didn't care how she felt. It devastated her because I think this was like she was young and she had grown up on a farm, you know, like this was her big first, big job. And I think this was like the first time she had actually been in a big relationship.

[Ash]

Well, and also like you think about the, you know, vibes here. Like it's like the big hotshot nephew of the owner of the company that you work for takes an interest in you. Like, she must have felt so special.

[Elena]

But then he's acting like a dick.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

He also convinced her to be with him unchaperoned, which was Skandal at the time, because he didn't want anyone knowing they were together so they couldn't have a chaperone. Right. And honestly, this was a big deal. And obviously now you're like, woo. But back then, this risked her entire reputation.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, he did not give a shit that he was putting her entire social reputation at stake here.

[Ash]

Cause he would have been fine.

[Elena]

Yeah. He didn't care at all. And he just never took her in public ever.

[Ash]

He would never take her so bad. And that's so sad that that's the treatment that she felt she, like, was supposed to be taking.

[Elena]

It must have felt so demeaning.

[Ash]

Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about one of my current favorites, Herobred. I am freaking obsessed with the fact that this bread is as delicious as it is while having ultra low net carbs, zero grams of sugar and it's high in fiber. I can focus on getting a healthy, balanced breakfast in while also stuffing my face with a yummy breakfast burrito wrapped in a Herobread tortilla. Yum. Or one of their phenomenally fluffy bagels. I will not lie to you guys. I was skeptical about trying this bread. I was like, I don't know. It's pretty good for you. It looks like. Like, is it going to taste that good? Is it going to be super fluffy? Yes, it tasted as good, if not better than my standard bread and bread products. But no guilt. I don't have any guilt. I love knowing how high in fiber it is too. Because most people are not getting the recommended amount of fib. But you know who is? Me. Me. Thanks to Herobred, there's also monthly small batch drops of indulgent favorites like the popular 2 gram net carb hero croissant. I'm gonna try that. And new surprises coming each month. This year, Herobred is offering 10 off your order. Go to Hero Co and use code morbid at checkout. That's Morbidhero Co. I'm actually on my way there right now to get those friggin cheddar biscuits. Oh my God. All my parents out there. I know that you never want to sacrifice quality for convenience, but listen, so many baby and kids food options today, they just don't meet the mark. But that is why I really love Little Spoon. They deliver healthy, ready to eat meals and snacks that your baby toddler or even your big kid will love and that you can actually feel good about. All their products are junk free, organic, where it counts, and thoughtfully sourced. Peace of mind every parent deserves. And easier mealtime without sacrificing on quality. They have an amazing variety of baby blends, biteables, plates, and so much more. Elena gets Little Spoon for her girls. And I am always out here stealing their little snacks because they are that good. And she's always talking about how good she feels serving them meals that are actually good for them. And did I mention it all comes right to your door. So flexible, so easy and everything stores right in the fridge and freezer. You pick the menu and change up what you order every time. The price is right, the quality is unmatched. Elena loves it, her kids love it. The grandparents even love it. A huge win win for our family and it can be for yours. Simplify your kiddos meal time with 30% off your first order. Go to little spoon.commorbid30 and enter our code morbid30 at checkout to get 30% off your first Little Spoon order.

[Elena]

Things got worse though. Near the summer of 1906, when she told Chester she was pregnant. Oh, no. And it was definitely his. Because she was not seeing anyone else. He panicked. And she was also very anxious simply because it was 1906. It's not like unwed young mothers were treated like magic, magical beings creating life. No, they were treated like whores who were unfit to be in proper society. Like this. In fact, at from what I've like, you know, all the things that I was reading and seeing about this, it was literally like the amount of women, young women who. Who ended up up killing themselves.

[Ash]

Oh yeah.

[Elena]

Because they felt it was a better outcome than the social ostracize. What is it?

[Ash]

Ostracization?

[Elena]

Yeah, that's ostrich.

[Ash]

Why did I like.

[Elena]

I totally blanked on how to say the word.

[Ash]

It's the. It's going from the T to the.

[Elena]

C. That's what it is.

[Ash]

Ostracization.

[Elena]

There you go. Good call.

[Ash]

Ostracization.

[Elena]

Oh, I was kind of Ostracization.

[Ash]

Ostracization.

[Elena]

That's hard to say.

[Ash]

Yeah. Okay.

[Elena]

It was better than being ostracized by society is what. Is what I'm thinking here.

[Ash]

I love that you're like, you know what? We're gonna just.

[Elena]

Hard to say. So anyway. Yeah, so this was like a big deal. It's not great. So she knew she had to hide out, but she couldn't be around everybody. She went back to her family's farm, and she communicated with Chester through letters. It was Chester who encouraged this, in fact, telling her to go hang out with her family and everything was going to be fine, basically. Go away. Get out of my face.

[Ash]

Like you dick.

[Elena]

He's a total dick. He was very negligent with her feelings, very much still sleeping around, and very uninterested in the idea of being a good partner or father. But he was also a liar and a very good manipulator. He had to have been. It's that kind of guy. So he had to keep her on a leash a bit because he was a guy who wanted to have his cake and eat it, too. Before she left, he had been ignoring her and making her feel just awful. But when the letters began, she basically found herself desperately begging him for attention or any kind of hope or hint that they would be married.

[Ash]

Because, well, it's also like, he's got this, like, all this money and everything. It's like she doesn't have any resources to figure this out. So she's relying 100 on him to figure out their situation that they got themselves into together.

[Elena]

That's the thing. And she's like. So she's basically like, give me any hope that you're gonna marry me so that I can go out into society again.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

I can't go out with this child until we're married. And, like. And so, you know. And she started getting the attention that she was looking for. He started telling her, yes, he would marry her and they would have a life together and just wait. It's gonna be fine. Like, he started promising what he knew she wanted.

[Ash]

I feel like that's not gonna happen. No.

[Elena]

Then one letter changed that. He told her he wanted to whisk her away for a romantic getaway.

[Ash]

And she was probably so happy.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. He told her he wanted to take her to the Adirondacks in July, and this felt like the moment that he was going to propose. She thought this was the wedding trip, either proposing or we're actually getting married. And sources say Grace was just over the moon, excited. So they left in July and stopped at the Hotel Glenmore at Big Moose Lake, and they ate at Alta Cliff Cottage. And they checked in with him using an alias.

[Ash]

So that's weird.

[Elena]

He used the alias Carl Graham, and she used her real name. Name. So that was already.

[Ash]

I'm surprised he didn't have her use a fake name.

[Elena]

I. Well, I think he's also a idiot.

[Ash]

That's good.

[Elena]

As we'll see. So I think that was part of it. According to the Evening Courier, a waitress there named Grace Greenwood said she witnessed them having dinner the evening before Grace was killed. And she said Grace was quote, unquote, hysterical at dinner. Oh, apparently Chester was trying to console her, trying to tell her, you have to eat, and she said she just couldn't. Couldn't.

[Ash]

Oh, God, I wonder what happened.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

What the conversation was exactly.

[Elena]

Now, the next morning, this waitress saw her again and described her as, quote, unquote, depressed. Like, she said she looked devastated.

[Ash]

You wish that she was just able to, like, whisk her away.

[Elena]

I know that's.

[Ash]

Come here, girl. We'll get you in a separate room now.

[Elena]

On the way to the hotel, they took a bus and the driver asked where they wanted to go. And this will just give you another little, like, in sight into, like, Chester's way of, like, it sounds like he was just being a dick. So the bus, the driver was like, where do you guys want to go? And Chester just gruffly answered, any old hotel.

[Ash]

Oh, nice.

[Elena]

Charming.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Your romantic getaway. And you're just like, whatever dump you want to bring us to. Because he didn't care.

[Ash]

That's so shitty.

[Elena]

So the next day he told Grace he was going to bring her for a romantic picnic and they were going to take a boat ride.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

Despite her telling him in a letter that she didn't know how to swim. Oh, no. They rented a rowboat from a man named Robert Morrison. They got on the boat and he brought them to. And apparently, like, Robert didn't come on the boat with them, he just rented it to them. But Chester brought them, like, rode them to the deepest and most isolated part.

[Ash]

Of the lake, which was probably getting more and more scared as this was happening.

[Elena]

Exactly. Or even worse, could be that she had no idea and just thought he was actually being like, romantic.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

And that's. Apparently the South Bay area is like the deepest point in the lake. Once there, nobody can really tell what exactly went down because it was only the two of them in the middle of the lake. But once there, what did eventually happen was he beat Grace brutally with a horn handled umbrella and a tennis racket.

[Ash]

It. Jesus.

[Elena]

And then threw her in the lake.

[Ash]

His pregnant mistress.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Elena]

Yeah. Robert Morrison, the guy who had rented them the boat, said when they didn't return the boat around dinner, he was suspicious, of course. But the next morning he and a few others went out to try to find them because he was like, I hope nothing happened, like, and they Found the empty boat in her coat and then came across her body. Oh, and she was dead. He had fled.

[Ash]

Believable.

[Elena]

He hid out at the Arrowhead Hotel and Inlet. And meanwhile, during the three days, he hid like the coward that he was. He also called to get an advance on his pay and received one. So he was planning on taking off.

[Ash]

Yeah, dipping.

[Elena]

And I love that later this will pretend and be like, oh, no, I'm innocent. I didn't do it. And it's like, why were you hiding? Nothing about how you acted said you were innocent. If this was an accident or something, which obviously it's not because she was beaten brutally. Like they can tell that, you dumbass. But it's like, even if it was an accident, why would you leave your pregnant girlfriend, like almost fiance dead in a lake and leave the boat and.

[Ash]

Then just hide out and then ask for an advance on payment?

[Elena]

Yeah, like, none of that makes any sense. Now when they came to, because they immediately they talked to her family and they were like, oh, she's. He's with this guy. Like, just so immediately they went to find him. And when they did find him, he actually tried to first claim he didn't even know Grace. Come on. He is the father of her unborn child and he claimed he didn't even know her.

[Ash]

Also, like, I'm sure if they went to her house, they would find a pile of letters. Of course, between the two of them.

[Elena]

When I say this guy is a idiot, he's a idiot.

[Ash]

You also worked together.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, are you.

[Elena]

There's literally no way you can claim you don't know her. He was arrested and immediately charged with her murder. She was covered in bruises and had a good head wound and lacerations to her forehead and her mouth when she was discovered. And she was also discovered to be four months pregnant.

[Ash]

Four months?

[Elena]

Four months.

[Ash]

So she sat around for four months waiting for him just to thinking he.

[Elena]

Was going to come around. That's so awful because he was also making her believe that he was going to come around.

[Ash]

Exactly. No. That's so sad to think that that long went on.

[Elena]

Yeah. His claim was that first that she killed herself, but, like, after beating herself up, no one believed that. According to the Evening Courier, they found the broken, bloody tennis racket buried on the shore.

[Ash]

Dude.

[Elena]

There was a lot to be made about whether she was dead before she hit the water during the trial, but the consensus did seem to be that she likely was. He had beaten her to death and thrown her in the water. He also claimed at one Point that she jumped in willingly. Can't swim, remember?

[Ash]

Well, she might have jumped in to get away from him.

[Elena]

Exactly. And he said he tried to help her and the boat tipped over, but he arrived at the hotel he hid out at with all dry clothing. Huh. So imagine that. The trial was bonkers. Everyone was there. He's a big name. I mean, a very wealthy family like this is a well known bachelor. The media went wild. No one even knew he was dating this woman because they had kept it so under wraps. Never mind that he was the father of her unborn child. And now he was a murderer of her and a child, his own child. On December 5, 1906, the jury deliberated for five hours and found him guilty of first degree murder.

[Ash]

Good.

[Elena]

He was sentenced to die in the electric chair.

[Ash]

Fantastic.

[Elena]

He spent a couple years at Auburn Correctional Facility and apparently got some spiritual guidance along the way. And sources say he confessed to the murder to many of them.

[Ash]

Yeah, to clear his own conscience.

[Elena]

Exactly. He was executed March 30, 1908. He did. He exhausted all his appeals. He tried to get out of it. I think his mother even wrote a letter to the governor trying to get.

[Ash]

That's sad.

[Elena]

A stay, but she couldn't.

[Ash]

That's sad for his mom because he put her in that position.

[Elena]

Of course it is. She didn't ask for it.

[Ash]

She's a victim, too.

[Elena]

I'm pretty sure his grave. He was in an unmarked grave, and I'm pretty sure it got paved over by a road. So there's that.

[Ash]

And no comment.

[Elena]

No comment on that. According to Adirondack.com, the murder of Grace Brown influenced the 1925 Adirondack folk song, the Ballad of Big Moose Lake.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Because that is the lake that she was drowned in. And there's also a 1951 movie, a place in the sun, that is based on this story. And there's also a 1925 novel, an American Tragedy, that's based on it and a 1926 play about it and a 2005 opera by the same name. And that's just a few of things that have been influenced by this.

[Ash]

That's crazy.

[Elena]

Now, A Place in the sun in An American Tragedy apparently take Chester's side a lot and basically say grace.

[Ash]

What side is that?

[Elena]

They basically show grace to be what Robert Stack on Unsolved Mysteries said was they called her a woman of easy virtue. You basically a hoe.

[Ash]

So we're slut shaming. Yeah. In the 20th century.

[Elena]

And that she should be murdered While pregnant because of that.

[Ash]

Oh, good.

[Elena]

Apparently so, like, those two things. Yeah, them. Now, that isn't the end of the story because people keep seeing Grace.

[Ash]

Oh, that breaks my heart that she's at the lake.

[Elena]

I hate that she's stuck there. Yeah, she's stuck at the lake. People keep seeing a complete apparition of a glowing woman walking the shores of Moose Lake Lake or across the surface of the lake.

[Ash]

That's really cool.

[Elena]

Yeah. And also see her walking down the halls of the Big Moose Inn where she stayed. If she's not wandering the shore, people will have seen her struggling in the lake, trying to get help. Like, almost like a repeat of what's happening sometimes. She's seen at the cottages along the lake and, like, the lodge there. And apparently she likes to turn off the lights all the time. She doesn't like lights on. And I wonder if that's because it's like the 19 6, you know, 06 of it all. She's like, I didn't live with electricity. What is this?

[Ash]

Maybe it's too bright.

[Elena]

I think it's too bright. According to Weird New York, sometimes people recall feeling intense sadness around the lake, almost like an uncontrollable dread. They theorize that she and her child being killed trapped her there and she's somehow unable to continue to move on.

[Ash]

I want to go there and help her.

[Elena]

So sad. I know.

[Ash]

Let's go.

[Elena]

I want to. I hate that she's trapped there with all this, like, sadness around her.

[Ash]

Yeah, she doesn't deserve that.

[Elena]

Now, this was also featured on an episode of the OG Unsolved Mysteries.

[Ash]

I heard you watching it the other day.

[Elena]

That's right. With King Robert Stack.

[Ash]

I heard that intro. I heard that smooth butt of voice.

[Elena]

They talked about a group of people in this episode that worked at the COVID wood Lodge in 1988. That's on. That's near or Big Moose Lake. One of them, Rhonda, said she stopped at the staff lodge to turn out the lights. And she was with, like, a group of three other people who worked at the lodge. And as soon as she went in, she said she felt like someone was there. And she said she went up to, like, the top floor where, like, there's a balcony overlooking where her friends were in the lake. And she said she didn't see anything, but she said she just, like, knew someone was there, like, felt a blessing.

[Ash]

Like, just felt that.

[Elena]

And she said it was very strange, Very, very unsettling. And outside, meanwhile, her friends saw a woman standing on the balcony Glowing in white, like, fully in, like, a 1906 garb. And she just was standing there looking out onto the lake. And then she. And she just stood there. And they. All three of them said the same thing, that they saw the same thing. And they said she stood there and then all of a sudden just dissipated. Waited. It was gone.

[Ash]

The tinglies that are happening all over my body.

[Elena]

Imagine seeing that.

[Ash]

I would. My goosebumps have goosebumps.

[Elena]

And they all say that she's, like. Has such a sad look on her face and she's just looking out over.

[Ash]

The lake because she just loved him and he couldn't give a.

[Elena]

And then he's a piece of.

[Ash]

Killed her and their unborn child. We gotta get her out of there. She deserves so much.

[Elena]

We gotta get her out of there because she's got to move on to.

[Ash]

Her next life, which is going to.

[Elena]

Be like a million times fast with her. Bebe.

[Ash]

With her. Bebe with a better. A man, a better husband.

[Elena]

Exactly. And the same episode tells the story of Linda Lee Mackin and her friend Bridget, who vacationed at the lake around the same time. And they had flashlight issues because, like, I really don't think Grace likes this electricity business. Like, they were going down to the lake and the flashlight kept dimming and then just shut off. But the batteries were, like, brand new.

[Ash]

That would scare the shit out of me.

[Elena]

And they said it kept happening. And one night they went down to the lake together, just sitting there, and it was, like, really dark out. And they saw a mist coming close to them, like, over the top of the lake. And they were like, wow, that's so pretty. Like, so spooky. And then they said, all of a sudden the mist formed into a woman. And they said. Who just looked at them. And they literally said, with such extreme sadness. That's all they could get from her. And they said. And actually, Linda said she felt extreme, overwhelming sadness herself. Like, she was like. It was literally like. I immediately felt just like. Like, hopelessness and sadness. And she said it was overwhelming. And then the next day, they were in the lodge and they were walking through, like, the lobby. And there's memorabilia about this, like. Like, old newspapers. And. And there's photos of Grace and Chester. And they said they. You could have knocked them over with a feather because they were like. We saw that picture of Grace, and we were like, that is the woman that appeared to us last night.

[Ash]

Can you imagine having. Having an experience like that? Jarring.

[Elena]

That would. And that's my fucking mind.

[Ash]

So I just used NerdWallet's card finder tool to find a better card for me and listeners.

[Elena]

This is genius.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

Like, and she just appears to you like, sad. I'd be like, what can I do to help you?

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

Like, I. I would not say that in that moment because I would probably shit my pants. I'm not pretending. Like, be like, what can I do to help you?

[Ash]

Like, I'm so confident. But like, would not be like, I.

[Elena]

Would just be like, what can I do to help you into health mode? Like, no, I would not. I'm not claiming that, but looking back on it, you want to be like, I want to stand in front now if she appears, you want to be like, what can we do to help you, Grace? How can I get you not here? I know, cuz I don't want you. You be on this lake. It's sad.

[Ash]

Oh my God. Remember Ghost Whisperer?

[Elena]

Yeah. I never watched that. Oh, it was Jennifer Love Hewitt, right?

[Ash]

Yeah. Jennifer Love Hewitt.

[Elena]

Yeah. J. Love.

[Ash]

J. Love. She was so helpful. She was such an empath.

[Elena]

Good for her.

[Ash]

Man, that show used to scare the out of me as a kid.

[Elena]

Though I'm sure you probably shouldn't have been watching it. Yeah.

[Ash]

Probably not. But I always loved the end, though, because she would help them, like, find the light and cross over.

[Elena]

Yeah, I like that.

[Ash]

I know. I want to help Grace find. What?

[Elena]

I want to help Grace. But that is the story of Grace Brown's tragic, tragic murder and her now at Big Moose Lake. And now her haunting.

[Ash]

Mine's a little more wily than that. And a little more all over the place.

[Elena]

All right, let's go.

[Ash]

All right. We're heading out to Oregon. All right, let's go. Oregon.

[Elena]

Let's go. Oregon Trail.

[Ash]

We're going to Oregon. I'm going to talk about Crater Lake, which is located inside of Crater Lake national park, if you can believe it.

[Elena]

But I can't.

[Ash]

It is the deepest lake in the United States.

[Elena]

That's really scary. And I don't like that.

[Ash]

One of the deepest actually in the world.

[Elena]

No, I actually hate that same.

[Ash]

It has an average depth of about 1500ft.

[Elena]

Shut the up.

[Ash]

But that's not even as deep as it goes. That's the average. The deepest parts are said to be close to 2,000ft deep. Like, just think of everything that would be lurking underneath you as you treaded water. I had to say that to you. No, you actually really shouldn't swim in this lake. It's not very allowed.

[Elena]

But don't do it.

[Ash]

There's like certain parts where you can.

[Elena]

It's not very allowed.

[Ash]

I was waiting for that to hit you. It's not very allowed.

[Elena]

It's not very allowed.

[Ash]

It's not very loud. There's certain places where you can. But overall it's too cold and too deep. Like, they don't recommend.

[Elena]

It's way too deep. Don't do that.

[Ash]

Yeah. Yeah. What?

[Elena]

What's that?

[Ash]

Insane.

[Elena]

It's like fucking cave diving. Don't do that.

[Ash]

Well, don't do that.

[Elena]

Do it.

[Ash]

No. Well, the formation of this lake is crazy. It formed over 7700 years ago.

[Elena]

Badass.

[Ash]

Which is crazy. When Mount Mazama, the volcano erupted. Now, the eruption was so large and so cray cray that it weakened the structure of the volcano itself. The volcano emptied its entire magma reservoir. And then it all just collapsed in on itself. And that's what formed where the lake is.

[Elena]

That's what happened to me when I had neurovirus.

[Ash]

You got rid of your entire magnitude? My entire magna magma reservoir.

[Elena]

And then I collapsed in on myself.

[Ash]

Iconic. It's literally.

[Elena]

I've never. I didn't know how I felt in that moment.

[Ash]

And that's exactly the description. Oh wait, just picture that like happening to a.

[Elena]

No, that's actually the scariest thing I've ever heard.

[Ash]

It literally created a five to six mile wide caldera. So like just like a, A. Yeah. A crater essentially, which over time got filled with rainwater and like melted snow and shit. And that's Crater Lake.

[Elena]

The fact that it is just an.

[Ash]

Exploded volcano that collapsed in on itself.

[Elena]

Like a volcano that emptied its entire magnum reservoir which weakened the stability of it. And then it just like, just in on itself.

[Ash]

It did in fact.

[Elena]

And then it's like I. I just like looking up at a volcano.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Must be unbelievable. Like just the, the size that would.

[Ash]

Give me the chili willies.

[Elena]

Just the massive like this structure in front of you and then to think of that the other way.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And filled with water.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like that is just like my mind is like bending around that.

[Ash]

Well, like techn. I looked it up cuz I was like, okay. So like could it erupt still? Technically it could still erupt.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

But it wouldn't be like a typical volcano eruption, obviously.

[Elena]

Yeah. It would be a weird ass one.

[Ash]

Yeah. I don't think anybody really knows exactly what would happen.

[Elena]

My God, Crater Lake is scary, guys.

[Ash]

It's so scary.

[Elena]

So big.

[Ash]

It's also surrounded by like all this like, like mountain area. Yeah, it's beautiful, but it's. Yeah, it's got a vibe.

[Elena]

It is. It's gorgeous. But it is. Knowing what that is, is like.

[Ash]

Oh yeah, yeah. So I'm not even going to be able to hit like. I'm hitting like the tip of the iceberg here because so many different things have happened. We could honestly probably do a part two of Crater Lake.

[Elena]

Cool. Let's do it.

[Ash]

Because it's got all kinds of crazy stuff going on. There's some kind of water monster that people have reported seeing.

[Elena]

Fun.

[Ash]

Like small little tales, but they're fun.

[Elena]

I love a Nessie situation.

[Ash]

There's paranormal parts of this. The biggest thing that seems to be related to Crater Lake is disappearing planes.

[Elena]

Ooh.

[Ash]

And like, like disappearing. Oh, just like there and then not.

[Elena]

I don't love that.

[Ash]

Seemingly inexplicable plane crashes have also taken place all around this area. And unfortunately there have been murders.

[Elena]

Oh man.

[Ash]

Now some of this haunted/morbid TM activity could have to do with the lake's origin story. So according to the Klamath tribe, who lived on the land where Crater Lake national park now stands, but like way before it became a national park. Park.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The God of the Underworld, who I believe is Lao. I looked it up. Some pronunciations say Yao, but I saw Lao more often. Okay, so the God of the underworld fell in love with the chief's daughter. And when he couldn't take her back to the Underworld as his bride, he promised he was going to do something real big to get back at this tribe.

[Elena]

Uhoh. It's giving Hades and Persephone very much.

[Ash]

Yes. And that is when the volcano erupted, massively causing the giant caldera.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

But luckily, the sky spirit, Skell stepped in to protect the tribe from what was happening and came face to face with Lao in a pretty heated battle. The battle is said to have ended when Skell killed Lao and threw him into the lake.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ash]

According to journalist Sarah Crocker, who I got a lot of information from, she wrote an article for grunge.com. it's called a Look at Crater Lake's Morbid History.

[Elena]

Ooh. Yeah, fun.

[Ash]

But according to Sarah, Lau's body was eaten by monsters who were living at the time.

[Elena]

Oh, it's kind of like the realm of monsters from Moana. Moana.

[Ash]

Exactly. But they left his head untouched. They said, no, I don't want that. So it's just bobbing around the lake. So people believe now, especially the people that belong to this tribe, that Laos still haunts the area and the lake specifically.

[Elena]

That is so scary.

[Ash]

It's the scariest.

[Elena]

And they said, what a fascinating, like, origin story.

[Ash]

I love that. I love that story.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

They say that they don't think anybody should even look at the lake too long. Wow. Because it will. They believe it will cause, quote, death and lasting sorrow.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

So deep and creepy and spooky.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

So let's flash forward to the spring of 1944 for our first bizarre instance during World War I. 2. I think it's Grumman TBF. Torpedo bombers were flying over the lake, most likely running a drill of some kind. There was a navy or a military base nearby.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

It was said to be a completely clear day. As they were flying over the lake, each pilot was keeping track of the other. The pilot who survived this drill said suddenly he looked over and just didn't see the plane that was supposed to be flying with him. It he, like, looked below him. He didn't see it, like, falling out of the sky or anything like that. It was just gone. Just disappeared into thin air. Now, there's a lot of mystery surrounding this particular case, but it's a story connected to the case that's been told for decades. Some people Even say they saw a plane flying low that day and then disappear around the area of the lake.

[Elena]

Really?

[Ash]

But not really. There's like never been any names associated with it. It's never been confirmed or denied to have happened. It's just been very hush hush. And a lot of people think it's so hush hush because the government didn't want to say much about it because we were still actively involved in World War II.

[Elena]

I mean, that does make sense.

[Ash]

And it wouldn't have been a great look for a bomber plane to just.

[Elena]

Go missing, disappear over a little lake.

[Ash]

But it's entirely possible that this happened.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

There is also a ton of other military planes that are said to have either crashed into or near Crater Lake throughout the years or just completely vanished in or around the lake. But there's no actual records to be found. So could be legends based on the lake's history, but could be a hush hush thing.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, one plane in February of 1975, that, that did in fact disappear near Crater Lake wasn't found for seven years. Holy seven years. There were three people on that plane. And on the return flight, the pilot, Dave Nun, and two student pilots, Jim Prior and Matt Perkins, who were only 17 years old at the time.

[Elena]

Heartbreaking.

[Ash]

So they were on the return flight. Gan Nun had driven her husband, Dave, her daughter and her grandchild to the airport that night. Night. And she said that she had a feeling for two weeks beforehand that something was gonna happen in her family. She just had this weird feeling she couldn't shake. But she didn't know obviously what it was going to be.

[Elena]

What are you supposed to do?

[Ash]

She didn't know who it was going.

[Elena]

To happen to, when it was gonna happen.

[Ash]

Yeah, she just had a feeling. But she didn't think it was going to be her husband. Now, this trip was supposed to be simple. They were gonna fly to Salem, Oregon on Dave's private plane, a blue saysno182. And they were dropping off Jean and. And Dave's daughter and their grandchild. And then they were flying back to Klamath Falls, Oregon.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

This flight literally should have taken only 45 minutes. Like it's a super quick flight. So after dropping everybody off at the airport, Gene went home and she said she felt a chill. So she cozied up under an electric blanket and just fell asleep. Because again, this isn't supposed to be. Her husband's not supposed to be gone long. She's like, all right, I'm just gonna take a little nap, Go to sleep. Sleep but she said she woke up that night around 9:30 and she felt the sensation of a hand on her leg. And she immediately knew that something had happened today.

[Elena]

I just got so many chills.

[Ash]

She ended up writing a book about it. But she said the feeling just washed over her.

[Elena]

Oh God.

[Ash]

And she immediately knew. So she called the airport and she got. As soon as she got on the phone, she said the plane must have gone down at 9:20. And Dave died at 9:30. I know it.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

They confirmed that they'd lost track of the plane on the radar at exactly 9:20 that night.

[Elena]

What the.

[Ash]

It was exactly what she said. Now weeks and weeks went by. Search parties were trying to find this plane anywhere they could find the wreckage. Weeks turned into months, months turned into years. And finally, seven years later, in July of 1982, a hiker ended up coming across the wreckage just outside of Crater Lake National.

[Elena]

That must be the most horrifying thing to come in contact with. Truly a plane crash.

[Ash]

Like you're. And you're just out hiking, like you're supposed to have this great day with nature.

[Elena]

You just find a plane crash. Like what the.

[Ash]

And three people inside of it. Like he found three skeletons inside of it. Who are the two? God, 17 year old student pilots and Gene's husband. But she said she knew. She knew all those years.

[Elena]

Wow. Jane.

[Ash]

Crazy.

[Elena]

Holy. I want to read her book.

[Ash]

It's real. Yeah. Let me tell you what it's called.

[Elena]

I'm like, damn, Gene.

[Ash]

Yeah. Her book is called We Fly Away.

[Elena]

Oh, Jean. I know. There's a picture of her with like scrapbooks in one of these articles in the Herald. What is it, the Herald News or something?

[Ash]

The Herald News?

[Elena]

Yeah. She. It's a picture of like Dave who was a stunner.

[Ash]

A stunner, honey? Yeah.

[Elena]

That's so sad.

[Ash]

And just like how cool to be a pilot and just be able to like fly your daughter and your grandchild home. And he was just trying to teach these two students about dying. They're passionate about it. So sad.

[Elena]

It makes me so sad, but also.

[Ash]

Like so beautiful in a way that he was able to tell Jean that he had passed. And she knew, like she was able.

[Elena]

To like understand and in such a way that was like really comforting.

[Ash]

Yeah, probably.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Now another plane that crashed and then disappeared unfortunately took much longer to find. Back In December of 1945, there were seven Grumman Hellcat fighter planes that were taking flight over Cradle Crater Lake National Park. They were on their way to Washington. Now. It was really Foggy this day. There was a lot of fog especially lingering over the lake. And while they were going through it, some of the pilots couldn't clearly see others. Others. So they made it through the fog and they realized that There were not seven planes flying anymore. One plane which was flown by 22 year old Ensign Frank Lupo was just completely gone.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

Like lost track of it. Now before they went through the fog, a couple of the other pilots did see him trying to change a gas tank like while they were still flying. But obviously something had happened. And a couple of the other planes pilots saw, saw Lupo's plane start to descend slowly. Which I can't even imagine seeing that. And that's your friend that like you're out on this mission with like you know. Yeah. Something bad is happening and you can't stop it.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So Flash forward almost 25 years later in August of 1970, when a park ranger who was new newly working at Crater Lake national park, he was hiking through the park and he just casually stumbled upon a human skull. Oh, yep.

[Elena]

Welcome to the job.

[Ash]

So obviously he had to go report that to his head of department.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

He had an interesting way of doing so. He told the story and then just presented the head, taking it out of his backpack and putting the skull onto his boss's desk.

[Elena]

I mean here, none of us know. None of us know unless we've come across one.

[Ash]

Definitely like don't move a skull that you've.

[Elena]

Yeah, like we can say that with, with confidence.

[Ash]

Definitely leave that there. But I also understand again this is the 70s, so we didn't have all that information.

[Elena]

And he was probably freaked out.

[Ash]

And he was probably freaked out and he probably didn't think anyone was going to believe him.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And he probably didn't want to leave it there cuz an animal could get it, move it. And then he's just this crazy new guy. Yeah.

[Elena]

And it's not like he has a cell phone to pop a picture really quick to be like here it is. Like let's go find it.

[Ash]

Exactly. So instead he brought it with him and he popped it on his boss's desk.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ash]

I guess that leaves no doubts.

[Elena]

It does. Mom, I need to lay low for a few days. Lay low? What's going on?

[Ash]

I only paid for this Hyundai Tucson.

[Elena]

Christopher Allen lynch deal.

[Ash]

So right.

[Elena]

It almost feels wrong.

[Ash]

Get the car or SUV you want at the Hyundai getaway sales event. Get 0.99 APR for 60 months or 7500 EV bonus on the Hyundai Ioniq 5. Visit your local Hyundai dealer today offers end March 31st. Call 562-314-4603 for details. But after the discovery investigator investigators went out to where the skull was found. And they ended up finding the remains of the Hellcat plane.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

And they found a piece of equipment with a serial number on it. So they were able to determine that it was Lupo's missing plane.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

And in a bit of happier. A happier ending, Lupo's remains ended up being sent to his family. Oh. So he could get.

[Elena]

That's nice.

[Ash]

Laid to rest. Sort of. So now onto something very sinister. In 1952, 55 year old Charles, Charles Culhane and 56 year old Albert Jones were found dead on Annie Creek in the national park. The area where they found. They were found is only about six miles from the lake.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ash]

Both men worked for General Motors and were in Oregon for work. But while they were in the area, they planned to go on a fishing trip with these two other guys in the car business, Jack Vaughn and Frank Eberlein. So Jack, Frank and Frank's 13 year old son Allen showed up to the park with plans to meet up with the guy. But they were surprised when they only found their car keys still in the ignition and the front doors both open. It was like a little bit weird.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But they were like, maybe they went to sightsee or something while they were waiting for us.

[Elena]

Yeah, like strange but not like.

[Ash]

Yeah, not super alarming.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So they waited a little bit to see if Albert and Charles would show back up, but they gave it 45 minutes and they still hadn't come back.

[Elena]

No, it's alarming.

[Ash]

No, it's alarming. So the two older men decided to drive down to a ranger station while Alan stayed behind in case the two men showed up.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Now 13 year old Allen is just waiting in the back of his dad's car and he sees a dark sedan pull into the lot and kind of like slowly pass by and take a. He's looking like this driver takes a look at the. The car that's parked, that's empty, and then speeds off onto the highway.

[Elena]

Huh.

[Ash]

So he's like, okay.

[Elena]

Like that was weird.

[Ash]

Yeah, that was weird. So shortly after that, park rangers made it up that way and started the search for these two men. They enlisted trail trail crews to join the search effort as well. The search went on for a day and a half until finally the two men were found. And there's a lot of strange details about how they were found. They had both been shot in the back of the head at such close range that there was gunpowder residue and burn marks.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

So it was executed execution style. They both were shot by a, quote, 7.6. I think it's 7.6. 5 millimeter automatic pistol of foreign manufacture.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Which was weird. And investigators also found two brass card cartridges on the ground. They were each missing their shoes. But it looked like the shoes were taken after they were killed because their socks were clean.

[Elena]

Huh.

[Ash]

Albert shoes were found not too far from the scene, But Charles shoes are still missing. To this day, this case is unsolved. Though somebody did try to pawn a very similar pair of shoes after the bodies were found.

[Elena]

Interesting.

[Ash]

They both had also been gagged with their own neckties and part of Charles's undershirt, which is strange because they were both still wearing their dress shirts. So they had to have been like. Like, part of the shirt had to have been torn off in, like, a struggle or he was redressed at some point. It's very strange.

[Elena]

Yeah. And it's like, did they take the shoes off after they were killed, or did they take them off after they got them down on their knees?

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So they couldn't run?

[Ash]

Who knows?

[Elena]

I don't know.

[Ash]

Possibly. Yeah. Maybe.

[Elena]

Both their socks are clean.

[Ash]

Yeah. Now, even stranger, both men's dentures were found in the pockets of their dress shirts.

[Elena]

Huh.

[Ash]

Like what? What? Their wallets were emptied. They both were assumed to be carrying around $300, and that was gone. And lastly, they both were wearing watches previously that were gone now. So it looked somewhat like a robbery, but like a very. A bizarre one.

[Elena]

Like an execution murder, robbery. Right.

[Ash]

So later, an autopsy would show that Albert had a fractured skull, and both men had been hit so hard in their groin areas that they were broken, bruised.

[Elena]

Oh, God.

[Ash]

Yeah. So they. They put up a fight, and they were. They went through a lot.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It definitely seemed like there was more than one killer. Also, to investigators, they were both pretty big guys, too, so it was unlikely to investigators that one person alone took them out. Now, like I said, the case is technically unsolved, but there were some good leads that came in after the murders. I don't want to go into every single one, and I'm really giving you, like, a brief overview.

[Elena]

Because you want to cover it.

[Ash]

Because I do want to cover them.

[Elena]

This is a little taste.

[Ash]

This is a little taste. But what I will tell you is that afterwards, after, like, this got out to the. To the public, a couple reported seeing two, quote, dirty, unkempt men in an old Car near the crime scene. Now interestingly, another man who was working a delivery route in the area had also seen what he described as two scruffy looking men leading two nicely dressed men into the woods near Annie Creek on the day of the murder. And he said he noticed this and he also noticed one of the nicely dressed guys make a symbol to the other guy. Like a hand symbol like that. Like a gun.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So basically trying to tell the other guy like they have a gun or like, oh okay, something like that.

[Elena]

Like trying to like subtly warn him.

[Ash]

And he said he also saw a black Pontiac coupe parked on the shoulder around the corner from the scene, which if you remember Alan saw a dark sedan. Yeah, so that's interesting. Now this guy, this driver was driving again in the area the next day and he kept running into those same scruffy men that he saw before. And they were clearly making a point to intimidate him. He said they stared him down. They ended up locking him in at a gas station at one point driving that same black Pontiac that he had seen on the day of the murders. So now he saw the car near the scene, but now he knows they're the ones driving it. Yeah, and they just overall seem to be following him. Him. But obviously because of this he was able to get a good look at them. One of the men who seemed to be the older one of the two, he said had quite a few distinguishable details that this guy remembered. And the, the witnesses, his name is Lincoln. So the man who had all these like remember memorable characteristics was wearing a beaded belt that said Ralph. He had a tattoo of a woman in a bikini and he was also missing one of his fingers. Oh, so you'll remember that?

[Elena]

Yeah, you'll remember a nine fingered guy.

[Ash]

You sure will. Unfortunately, the authorities didn't really take Lincoln's story too seriously. Like he kept, he kept telling them all this information, but it seems like some of his reports weren't even recorded at all. Like there are some that are on record and some like he was like, I also gave additional information and it's just nowhere. Yeah, he said they, that he thought the police thought he was a smart Alice because remember this is the 50s.

[Elena]

Yeah. So they did think he was a smart aleck.

[Ash]

They definitely did. But weird. Almost 50 years after the murders and Lincoln's experience with two scruffy looking men, somebody new got eyes on the case. A woman named Cheryl was taking a class at a local college when she heard the story about the murders all those years ago. And she Just got deeply fascinated with this case and, like, started going down all these rabbit holes, getting every last detail together. And she ended up writing a paper about the murders.

[Elena]

Oh, shit.

[Ash]

For her class. And it was a. It was a really well done paper. So she ended up giving a presentation later on the paper at a local museum. Like, in this area.

[Elena]

Cheryl.

[Ash]

Yeah, she's a queen. So the presentation was attended by a ton of people who signed in before joining the discussion. And Cheryl's friend told her that the last man to walk into this whole presentation was suspicious looking. And while Cheryl was still presenting some of the paper, this man went down and started looking through the list of names of people who had signed in. Like. Like, very into it, like, studying this list.

[Elena]

Fuck that.

[Ash]

The other thing that they noticed about this man, her friend, he was missing a finger.

[Elena]

Shut up. Shut the fuck up.

[Ash]

Yup. But that's all I'm gonna give you because I want to cover it in its entirety.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Weird, though. What the. Now, what I will tell you is it's technically unsolved, but there is a good set of suspects for this murder.

[Elena]

All right.

[Ash]

Or these murders.

[Elena]

Wow, that's fascinating.

[Ash]

Isn't that a story? Yeah. Now on to the paranormal. Apparently, park rangers at the. In the Crater Lake national park will see campfires burning in areas where they're restricted, spooky. Now, they'll go all the way out and they'll say, like, we see campfires, we see people around the campfire. And then they'll go out to confront the campers and be like, you can't have a fire here. And they'll get all the way out to where they saw this all happening, and there will be nobody there and no campfires lit.

[Elena]

That must be so maddening and so.

[Ash]

Fucking creepy because you're like, what was bidding me out here?

[Elena]

What the fuck was I seeing?

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. Apparently this happens a lot around Wizard Island.

[Elena]

Wizard Island?

[Ash]

You heard me. Wizard island was formed way back when the volcano erupted and is named that because it apparently resembles a wizard's hat if, like, from an overhead shot.

[Elena]

Bitch.

[Ash]

Yep. There's also another island in the lake called Phantom Island.

[Elena]

Phantom Island.

[Ash]

Phantom island is crazy. This lake is the tits.

[Elena]

I love it.

[Ash]

Phantom island is named that because depending on what angle you're looking at it from, you'll see it. And then it's like this weird optical illusion where if you move slightly or like you see it at a different time of day, you'll see the. The island and then you won't suddenly like, it like literally disappears in your line of vision.

[Elena]

That's really spooky. And also, wizard island does look like a wizard's hat.

[Ash]

It does.

[Elena]

Correct.

[Ash]

And that's where a lot of the phantom fires are seen. Oh, yeah. Now finally onto the water monster of it all.

[Elena]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Ash]

There have been at least two sightings of the monster. The Wanster.

[Elena]

The wanster. What is the. I was gonna say the monster material. The monster monitor, the water monster.

[Ash]

And people say it looks like a dragon. Kind of like Nessie. Cool. The Loch Ness monster.

[Elena]

We love Nessie here.

[Ash]

In one instance, there was a group of friends who saw the crater lake dragons swim under their robot.

[Elena]

My God, what's happening?

[Ash]

I'm losing it.

[Elena]

Crater Lake is getting to you.

[Ash]

In one instance, a group of friends saw the crater lake dragon swim under their rowboat. And they were so terrified that they hauled ass back to land and were like, like flagging rangers down, being like, we just saw a straight up creature in the lake.

[Elena]

We just saw a dragon.

[Ash]

Like, we just saw like, what is that? And they're like, there's fish in the lake. I don't know.

[Elena]

Imagine if there's a straight up dragon in that.

[Ash]

I am like fully of the mindset that they.

[Elena]

At this point.

[Ash]

Yeah, fully of the mindset. Basically nobody believed them. They were like, yeah, are you. Are you like high? Like, are you?

[Elena]

They're like, no, I'm high on dragon sightings is what I'm high on.

[Ash]

We saw what we saw. And yeah, now we are high on dragon insight things. But they're not the only group of people to have seen this.

[Elena]

Of course they're not, cuz it's real.

[Ash]

A woman who was visiting the area from Georgia also wanted to do a little rowboat day of her own.

[Elena]

Yeah, you couldn't pay me money, but go right ahead.

[Ash]

You could pay me money and I would do it. I would do it probably without pay.

[Elena]

If you paying me, I'll watch from the shore.

[Ash]

Yep, Watch from P Island. Yeah, but she said that she saw the giant sea creature swimming away from her boat. Like she saw it herself too. Too.

[Elena]

What the.

[Ash]

And everybody describes it like a dragon like creature.

[Elena]

That's the coolest I've ever heard.

[Ash]

I'm obsessed with it. You can also buy postcards of it if you want to. Because now they lean in.

[Elena]

Hell yeah. If you got a Nessie, you better go full Nessie.

[Ash]

Lean in.

[Elena]

Yeah. Don't. Don't you dare try to dispel the Nessie.

[Ash]

Exactly. Now I have a few Honorable mentions. There wasn't like a ton of information on these things, but they happen.

[Elena]

Worth mentioning.

[Ash]

Yeah, worth mentioning. Many Bigfoot sightings.

[Elena]

Oh, I love that.

[Ash]

Rangers will smell something real bad in, investigate it, and then just get a barrage of pine cones thrown at them.

[Elena]

That's the funniest I've ever heard.

[Ash]

I'm obsessed with it.

[Elena]

I love that big. I almost said big face.

[Ash]

I love that.

[Elena]

I love that. Bigfoot is just like. Get the out of here.

[Ash]

No, no, no, no.

[Elena]

It's a bunch of them.

[Ash]

Don't look at me.

[Elena]

Get out of here.

[Ash]

There was also a 1997 UFO sighting.

[Elena]

Oh, hell yeah.

[Ash]

There was three lights flashed across the sky and then there was like a ton of weird flashes of light.

[Elena]

Lights.

[Ash]

And then those three lights seem to just disappear into the water.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, yeah. UFOs underwater, man.

[Ash]

I mean it's happening a lot lately.

[Elena]

And that thing's 2, 000ft deep in some spots.

[Ash]

So many places to go.

[Elena]

Definitely UFOs down there.

[Ash]

Oh, the places though.

[Elena]

Oh, the places though. Yeah.

[Ash]

And finally my favorite part of Crater Lake is the old man of the lake.

[Elena]

It's my favorite part too. And I don't, I don't know anything about it.

[Ash]

He's not a man man. He's actually a giant 30 foot mountain hemlock that just floats around the lake upright, which like obviously doesn't make sense from a, from a gravity standpoint, from a reality, from any, from this life standpoint. He just floats upright in the lake with about three feet. It used to be four, but you know, weather and global warming and all that. Now just three feet of him stick out of the lake surface. This.

[Elena]

Oh, there he is.

[Ash]

Isn't he so cute?

[Elena]

There he is.

[Ash]

He just floats around. But. What the. But there's more to him than that. Apparently he controls the weather. Yeah. Are you ready?

[Elena]

Of course he does.

[Ash]

He does. Because in 1988 there was a group of researchers who were going to survey the bottom of a lake of, of the lake with like a submersible, which that.

[Elena]

Yeah. No, you couldn't ever have me do that.

[Ash]

But they were worried that the submersible might run into the old man like and you know, break or something.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So they took him over to wizard island, of course.

[Elena]

Yeah, of course.

[Ash]

And they tied him to the shore and in no time the weather took 180 degree turn. They were not even able to launch their submersible because storm clouds rolled in and it got so bad that it started snowing. Like the weather was going Insane.

[Elena]

Because you can't hold him down.

[Ash]

You can't hold him down.

[Elena]

Don't you dare tether the old man of the goddamn lake.

[Ash]

Not my man's.

[Elena]

I, too, would make the weather go fucking lawless if you tied me the side of it.

[Ash]

Lawless. That's the. The old man is lawless. The whole of the lake is lawless. He really is. He follows. No, no. No rules.

[Elena]

And he doesn't have to. Well, listen, I'm not asking him to.

[Ash]

I'm not either. The second they untied him, the weather went right back to beautiful. Yeah, that's all he wanted, like, almost instantly.

[Elena]

That's all he asked for.

[Ash]

He wants to be free.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's him. Hold him down.

[Ash]

Now, there's a lot of theories as to how old man just, like, floats upright, because, again, it makes no sense. Personally, it's because he's the most magical thing that we've ever come across. Some people think his density has increased over time because it's the wall. He's been in the water for so long.

[Elena]

Nah.

[Ash]

But I don't think so.

[Elena]

Yeah, he's.

[Ash]

He's a maverick. He's.

[Elena]

He is a maverick, but he's magic as well.

[Ash]

He is. He's a magic maverick.

[Elena]

He's a maverick.

[Ash]

And that is the tip of the iceberg about Crater Lake.

[Elena]

Hold. Holy.

[Ash]

I might do a part two.

[Elena]

Part two gotta come. Yeah.

[Ash]

Because there's some other disappearances that have taken place.

[Elena]

We gotta.

[Ash]

I'm sure I could probably find some more plane crashes that have.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. We gotta touch upon Crater Lake again.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And I'm very interested to hear more about that double murder.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

Because that was shocking.

[Ash]

Yeah. Me and Dave are gonna start working on that one real soon, me and Dave. So keep a lookout for that. Hell, yeah. We hope you enjoyed my rant in the beginning about being bullied. I feel a little safer in the office now. Now.

[Elena]

Yeah, you know, now that we've talked.

[Ash]

About Crater Lake, we got it out. Yeah.

[Elena]

The old man is there.

[Ash]

The old man is on my side.

[Elena]

He's on everyone's side.

[Ash]

I'll. I'll use the old man to.

[Elena]

Because we'll never hold him down.

[Ash]

We'll never hold him down. I just want to. I want to be one with him. I just want to, like, hold on to him and float around, just bob around the lake. Actually, I don't. Because it's too.

[Elena]

No, that.

[Ash]

And. But I do want to see the dragon.

[Elena]

I want to see the dragon.

[Ash]

Yeah. And I want to see Grace.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I want to help her.

[Elena]

I know. I just want to send Grace home.

[Ash]

I know. We have so many places we have to go all.

[Elena]

Oh, the places we'll go, though.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Full circle. Well, we hope you keep listening.

[Elena]

And we hope you keep it weird.

[Ash]

But not so weird that you don't check out these lakes, man.

[Elena]

Do it.

[Ash]

Yay, water. Bye. Bye. If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey. Hey, weirdos. If you guys know one thing about us, it's that we love a deep dive. Well, if you're looking for a limited series that will completely consume you, we've got you covered. Those sketchy texts you're always getting, sometimes there's something way darker behind them. Imagine helping your brother land a dream job abroad only to discover you've trapped him in a nightmare. We're talking armed guards with shoot to kill orders and thousands forced to scam others just to stay alive. Wondery's new podcast, Scam Factory follows one family's desperate fight to save their brother from a multi billion dollar criminal empire where the only way out is to become part of the scheme that trapped you. Are you looking for a wild story that'll keep you up at night? Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.