Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST

Summary

Morbid Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST

Release Date: March 7, 2025
Host: Ash and Elena
Guest: Tobias Forge, Frontman of GHOST

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1. Welcome and Guest Introduction (01:53 - 03:18)

Ash and Elena kick off this special episode by introducing Tobias Forge, the prolific songwriter and charismatic frontman of the band GHOST. They highlight Tobias's impressive achievements, including 10 billion streams, five Grammy nominations, American Music Awards, and iHeartRadio Music Awards. Elena exclaims, “You just put out the highest-grossing Hard Rock Cinema event in North America. No big deal” (03:18), setting an enthusiastic tone for the conversation.

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2. Reflecting on the Epic Tour and Hard Rock Cinema Event (03:19 - 05:28)

Tobias shares his experience of managing a two-year-long tour, describing it as “something like that” in duration (03:07). Elena expresses amazement at his stamina, saying, “I have no idea how you did two full years of a tour and did all the things you did afterwards, I would be gone” (05:10). Tobias discusses the challenges of juggling multiple creative projects simultaneously, emphasizing the importance of focusing on one endeavor at a time to maintain mental acuity.

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3. Analyzing the Jack the Ripper Case (05:28 - 16:52)

Elena brings up the recent claim that Aaron Kosminski has been identified as Jack the Ripper, sparking an in-depth discussion:

• Elena's Skepticism: She expresses strong doubts about the identification, questioning the authenticity of the shawl purportedly found at the crime scene (06:57 - 07:22). “Aaron Kosminski is not Jack the Ripper” (13:16) becomes her definitive stance.

• Tobias's Agreement: Tobias concurs, stating, “I definitely don't think it's Aaron Kosminski” (13:20). He critiques the reliance on mitochondrial DNA, which can only eliminate suspects rather than identify them conclusively (12:00).

• Broader Insights: Tobias expands on the misconceptions surrounding serial killers, noting, “We know now that serial killers are not necessarily an eccentric weirdo openly” (15:03). He highlights the rarity of definitively solving historical cases like Jack the Ripper’s and cautions against accepting sensational claims without robust evidence.

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4. Transition to the Latest Tour and "Imperator" Album (16:52 - 28:00)

Elena shifts the conversation to Tobias's latest album, "Imperator", which accompanied the extensive tour:

• Album Success: Elena praises the album as a “masterpiece” and shares her excitement, mentioning, “Each one... feels like a little mini movie” (26:34).

• Creative Process: Tobias explains his shift towards a more introspective and personal approach with the new album. “I'd rather make a more introspective record that deals with evergreen feelings and basic human sentiments” (25:15). He discusses the challenges of maintaining thematic coherence while ensuring the album remains entertaining.

• Collaborative Efforts: He emphasizes the importance of working with trusted collaborators, stating, “We were working with... a certain amount of rapport and background, which was very comforting” (28:35). This collaborative environment helped avoid the common pitfalls of creative conflicts.

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5. Deep Dive into the "Satanized" Music Video (28:00 - 42:07)

The discussion delves into the thematic elements of the "Satanized" music video:

• Character Portrayal: Elena inquires about Tobias's character in the video, to which Tobias confirms he is heavily made up to portray a priest. “I want people to focus on the priest” (33:07).

• Narrative Elements: Tobias explains the storyline, where a love-stricken monk confuses his infatuation with demonic possession. He elaborates on integrating biblical references, mentioning Corinthians 6:19, which emphasizes the sanctity of the body: “It belongs to God” (39:58).

• Easter Eggs and Symbolism: Elena points out an Easter egg in the video—crossed-out words like “masturbate” and “suicide” in a notebook (40:31). Tobias clarifies these were intentional to add layers to the narrative, enhancing the song's message without overtly stating them.

• Cultural Influences: Tobias briefly touches on Scandinavian folklore, mentioning the character Nikken, a deceptive figure who lures and drowns victims with his fiddle playing (49:46). This folklore influences the eerie and supernatural themes prevalent in his music.

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6. Scandinavian Folklore and Personal Influences (42:07 - 50:35)

Elena asks Tobias about the influence of Swedish folklore on his music and creativity:

• Folklore Influence: Tobias discusses his childhood exposure to folklore tales about trolls and forest creatures, which have subtly shaped his thematic choices in music. “Scandinavian folklore had a lot about trolls and various creatures that live in the forest” (47:52).

• Personal Reflections: He reflects on his upbringing near a stream in Linköping, Sweden, describing fond memories and the natural beauty that inspired him. Tobias shares, “There's this character in Swedish folklore called Nikken... he will drown you” (50:07), highlighting how these narratives infuse his creative work with dark, mystical elements.

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7. Surprise Guest and Heartfelt Congratulations (50:35 - 53:17)

In a heartfelt and unexpected segment, a surprise guest, Doug Douglas, joins the conversation to congratulate Tobias:

• Reconnecting with Fans: Doug reminisces about past interactions, mentioning challenges during the COVID-19 pandemic and shared experiences with Tobias. “Congratulations on the movie” (52:09), Doug praises Tobias’s achievements.

• Personal Milestones: Elena shares her excitement about her novel’s success, receiving congratulations from Doug, which adds a warm and personal touch to the episode.

• Closing Remarks: The hosts and Tobias express mutual appreciation, with Elena emphasizing the release date of the new album and promoting related merchandise. “The album comes out on April 25th. It's incredible. Everybody go get it” (54:07), she urges listeners.

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8. Final Thoughts and Episode Wrap-Up (53:17 - 54:20)

Ash and Elena conclude the episode by reiterating their support for Tobias and reminding listeners to check out the latest releases:

• Album Release: Tobias’s new album is set to release on April 25th, with singles like "Satanized" and the "Sister and Predator" comic already available.

• Merchandise and Support: The hosts encourage fans to visit ghost-official.com for merchandise and additional content, fostering a strong community around Tobias’s creative endeavors.

• Community Engagement: Elena and Ash highlight Tobias’s contributions and express their excitement for future tours and projects, ensuring listeners feel connected and informed about his ongoing journey.

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Notable Quotes

• Elena (03:18): “You just put out the highest-grossing Hard Rock Cinema event in North America. No big deal.”

• Tobias Forge (05:10): “If I do two book signings in like a week, I'm like toast for three weeks.”

• Elena (06:57): “Aaron Kosminski is not Jack the Ripper.”

• Tobias Forge (13:20): “I definitely don't think it's Aaron Kosminski.”

• Alena (25:15): “I'd rather make a more introspective record that deals with evergreen feelings and basic human sentiments.”

• Tobias Forge (33:07): “I want people to focus on the priest.”

• Elena (54:07): “The album comes out on April 25th. It's incredible. Everybody go get it.”

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Conclusion

In this engaging episode of Morbid, Tobias Forge offers a deep dive into his creative processes, the challenges of balancing extensive tours and album releases, and his perspectives on historical mysteries like Jack the Ripper. His discussion intertwines personal experiences with professional insights, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of his artistry and the band's evolution. The episode concludes with heartfelt interactions and exciting announcements, making it a must-listen for fans of true crime, music, and dark storytelling.

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Stay Connected:

• Listen to Morbid: Wondery App | Apple Podcasts | Spotify
• Follow GHOST: ghost-official.com
• Join Wondery Plus: Unlock ad-free listening and exclusive content today!

Transcript

[Ash]

Hey weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait. Try Wondery Today. You can join Wonder plus in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify.

[Tobias Forge]

You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

I'm Ash. I'm Elena.

[Tobias Forge]

And I am Tobias.

[Ash]

And this is a very special episode of Morbid.

[Elena]

This is a very special episode of Morbid that we have been lightly teasing for a few weeks. I'm sure everybody's like, what the is going on? Who's coming on this show lightly? Today we have prolific songwriter and storyteller with 10 billion streams, which is astronomical. Five Grammy nominations, American Music Awards, iHeartRadio Music Awards, and a vast congregation of very devout fans. We have Tobias Forge from Ghost. Welcome to Morbid.

[Tobias Forge]

Thank you so much. You're making me blush here.

[Elena]

That's the plan right out the gate. Thank you so much for talking to us. This is awesome. You just came off of really in the last few months. An epic tour, I would say is the least way we can describe it. It was basically two years.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah, I guess it's stretched over two years. I don't remember exactly, but something like that.

[Elena]

Yeah. It's insane. You also just put out the highest grossing Hard Rock Cinema event in North America. No big deal.

[Ash]

Casual?

[Elena]

Yeah, very casual. You've gone on kind of like a media sabbatical in between and you've written an entire album. And you also collaborated with Dark Horse Comics to expand the whole ghost lore with a four issue comic book arc, which is really cool. Are you a vampire? Is our first question. Or do you sleep?

[Tobias Forge]

Considering the fatigue I feel, I'm apparently not. No, no, let's put it this way. I mean, in last year when I was working on on the record simultaneous with the film, there were, there were definitely moments where I felt like clear signs that big endeavors like that are better handled singularly. I don't. Whatever you call, you do one thing at a time. It's very hard to keep focus. Somehow I managed to do that, but it was definitely hard. The good thing about the film was that a large part of it was based on footage that we'd already secured, that we'd already shot in, in la. So that was, you know, a good lion's share of the content, if you will. You know, sometimes with making records or making. Making films, you just have to stay on script. You just, just do what we decided. My problem is that I don't really. I don't really work like that. I'm. I'm sort of off the cuff dude improvising stuff. And so it. Any project will demand a lot of my mental presence and acuity, which is fun when you've done it, but it can be really tiresome. And I've definitely sort of not to be ageist here, but I. But I'm sort of approaching that age when I. I start feeling a little bit of results when things get a little bit too much. So.

[Ash]

That makes sense.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

But you know, obviously it wasn't too much because I'm here now.

[Elena]

Yeah, you're doing okay. I feel like it's working out. Yeah, you know, I feel that though. I literally, if I do two book sign dinings in like a week, I'm like toast for three weeks. So I have no idea how you did two full years of a tour and did all the things you did afterwards, I would be gone. Yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

I don't know what to answer that. I mean, but it's also the good thing. This is the weird thing about my, my job compared to, you know, friends that I have that make films or, or friends that I have that are just writing songs all the time that might not have much of an artistic career, but more just like writing and is that they just go from one creative to another. And even though I'm, you know, constantly creating to a certain degree, I also flip flop between a creative period to a less creative period. That is the tour where you, you, you're, you're creative in the beginning, but it, it is actually more of a, dare I say, more of like a normal job in the sense that you, you show up in time and you do your job and then you're done.

[Ash]

Yeah, right. The creative work is done in a sense.

[Tobias Forge]

Job is like never I have to make the thing always.

[Elena]

It's like the creative part is like I have to make this whole thing and then that's just like, all right, let's go through the book. We got to do it now. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Well, before we get to, we're going to go fully into what is next for Ghosts. What has happened? I had one quick little side quest I needed to take you on before we get into it. I don't know if you have heard, but they think that they have named Jack the Ripper. And I need to know if you think that they named Jack the Ripper.

[Tobias Forge]

Tell me his name.

[Elena]

So you have it. They think it's Aaron Kosminski.

[Tobias Forge]

Okay.

[Elena]

No, I don't know if you've ever. Because I know you're like, you're into the case. You've researched the case, obviously.

[Tobias Forge]

Yes.

[Elena]

Have you heard of like the Catherine Eddowes shawl that they claim was at the crime scene?

[Tobias Forge]

Yes, I know that there is a DNA question mark on that.

[Elena]

Yeah, there's a huge. For some reason, it's been everywhere that they are 100% sure that this shawl has led to the identity and they think it's Erin Kosminski. And the reason I bring this up is because a lot of our listeners, we did like a four episode, you know, deep dive, deep dive into Jack the Ripper. And I think I did. It was like my, I couldn't stop researching it. So of course I've been asked a million times what I think of this whole thing, if they've really named him. And it's infuriating not people asking me but the fact that they're saying that this is 100% Jack the Ripper, but I needed to know if you had heard about it and if you were like, oh, yeah, it's Erin Kosminski, or if you were like, no. All right, so I'm gonna let Tobias finish in a second, I promise. But before I do that, I just needed to let you guys know that we had very limited time, Tobias, this time around. So I really wanted to make sure that you guys heard my feelings on Jack the Ripper. And I didn't want to just like, vomit them all over Tobias and use up all our time. So here's the thing. I don't think they have found Jack the Ripper. Not one part of me thinks it. In fact, there's many reasons for that. The fact that this has been a thing that comes around every few years is a big red flag to me. And it's the same person bringing it around every few years and not really updating any of the actual info. That shawl that they're claiming they have this DNA from is a shawl that they're claiming is found was found at Catherine eddowes crime scene. 1. They have no way of knowing that. The only way of knowing that would be if it was among the exhaustive list of her items that were found at, on and around her at the crime scene that is well documented. And it is nowhere. There is nowhere that says there is like an 8 foot long, really expensive shawl that might actually even be a table runner found on her person. Nowhere. So if we don't have that, then how do we know that this thing is hers? And how do we know that it was found at the crime scene? Here's your answer. We don't. So there's a big, giant hole of doubt that has already been thrust through this entire thing. I don't think it was found at the crime scene. I think she would have sold it at one point. I don't think she would have held on to that kind of shawl. I mean, there's all kinds of stories of her selling, you know, shoes earlier in the day and selling anything that was on her. It just doesn't make sense to me. I don't. I don't buy that one at all. Furthermore, the story of this whole thing is that Sergeant Amos Simpson was the one who is said to have taken this shawl from the crime scene. A supposed blood soaked shawl he took from the crime scene. One, that would have been an immense risk to do that. And two, I think we all need to remember what I said a thousand times during our Jack the Ripper series. We can't really comprehend how dark these crime scenes were. There was no light. We're going by candlelight. You're telling me that this man plucked a blood soaked shawl from a crime scene and just brought it home for his wife? I don't buy that. Also, there's the fact that Amo Simpson was a metro cop, he was a Metropolitan Police officer. Mitre Square, where Catherine Eddowes was found, that is London PD jurisdiction. He has no business being there. And even if he is there, he has no business at that crime scene. So that gives me pause. The DNA, the DNA, we don't even know what it is. It might be blood, it might be semen. They have no definitive answer for that. So that 100% match, I don't believe. They don't even know what the actual DNA source is for this. And also there is no evidence of him leaving semen at scenes. Of course he can depart from his pattern. Of course that's happened before. I am fully willing to admit that and I'm willing to accept that if there's other pieces of evidence along with it. But the fact that he never did this and there was never evidence of any classic sexual assault or rape at any of these scenes, it was really violence and mutilation. It doesn't really fit with the pattern. And once again, I'm willing to admit that a pattern can be broken if you give me other evidence to tell me that that's so. I just don't see it here. The DNA itself, it's mitochondrial DNA. That's what they're not telling you in any of these things. This is not straight up DNA. This is mitochondrial DNA. It can eliminate a suspect, but it cannot identify a suspect. Absolute. Anyone in the maternal line of this DNA match can also be the person this is. Can be thousands of people. Thousands of people in London can match this DNA. So that's not good enough for me. That's not identifying. That is you can eliminate. And also just to put a pin on this, the researcher who has put this forward is Russell Edwards. He doesn't have a track record that I'm willing to follow here, really. I will of course give benefit of the doubt if he can provide more evidence. But he also claimed once, and so did his team, that they found a victim of Ian Brady and Myra Henley that has been missing for decades and decades. Keith Bennett and his family has been looking for his body on those moors. Forever and hoping to find his body on those moors. And it was really fucked up that his team basically announced on social media that they had found Keith Bennett and they hadn't. So that upsets me. That makes me question it. Of course, one massive, monumental mistake doesn't mean that you can never do anything good in your life. So if he can provide more evidence that says this is 100% DNA match, which I don't believe he can, then I'm willing to listen to it. But no, Aaron Kosminski is not Jack the Ripper.

[Ash]

Mic drop.

[Tobias Forge]

I am very interested in the subject and I. I definitely don't think it's Aaron's. Kozminski.

[Elena]

No. Okay. I'm glad you agree because it's been driving me insane.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Elena's been going down rabbit hole after rabbit hole.

[Elena]

Every once in a while I'll just yell out like another thing that makes like. Doesn't make sense about this, but everybody's running with it. But that is my official statement right here. And Tobias Forge agrees it is not Aaron Kozminski.

[Tobias Forge]

Well, yeah, as I, I think I spoke about this last time as well, is that the problem with most, most of the names that been. That's been thrown around is that what they all have in common is that they somehow have some exotic or, you know, weird treat that makes them eccentric or typically weird. It's interesting how in this case, especially now when we know so much more about serial killers. I don't blame people back then to be sort of dumbfolded and sort of screwing up everything when it came to the. To the investigation. But it's interesting how we now have a tendency to. To believe that this case is so different from every other serial killer in the history of serial killers. We know now that serial killers are not ex. Necessarily an eccentric weirdo openly and have circus know that they are more likely to be like perfectly functional family meant.

[Ash]

Yeah, they blend in.

[Tobias Forge]

There's this very interesting reoccurring. It's sort of part of the mainframe of the story that if you believe in the limitation of the canonical five that after Mary Kelly no one can do that number on another person physically could subject someone to that ultra violence without losing their minds.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's like a very like since when does that.

[Tobias Forge]

And way worse. And then they sit and speak coherently and yeah.

[Elena]

And go have dinner with their family so pick their kids up from daycare.

[Tobias Forge]

It's really fascinating as, as an entre like. Like a human social experiment talking and listening to theories about this because.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

It's mired in such a mist that. And that, for some reason, makes people sort of completely unrealistic. But, you know, I'm also just an amateur. I don't know who did it. I can't present you with facts. That.

[Elena]

And that's the difference is you're saying, I don't know who did it.

[Tobias Forge]

I. I don't know who did it.

[Elena]

Yeah. And same. I don't either. I don't think any of us do. This drives me. It's been very widely reported as like, a hundred percent we figured out who did it.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like, fully fact.

[Elena]

Like, what. This is from the 80s.

[Tobias Forge]

It will serve me well if people think it's Aaron Kosmitsky for. For some time.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

So continue thinking that. Okay. It's officially him.

[Elena]

Yeah. Okay. 100%.

[Ash]

Tobias is gonna come. Mic drop later.

[Elena]

There you go. There's so many little things about it, but I won't get into it because I could literally talk about this for, like, six hours, and you don't have that. So let's take it back. We're gonna talk about the Imperator, which, again, you toured for almost two years. It was seven legs. We were at a few of them. It was an amazing tour. Congrats on that success, by the way. And again, the stamina that it took to do that.

[Tobias Forge]

Thank you so much.

[Elena]

You're welcome. And it had. I feel like, towards the end of that tour, everyone became kind of, like, in a flutter of, like, what's going to happen? And, like, what's. What's next? And it was like, a very. It had, like, its own, like, mythos. You could hear, like, people talking about it everywhere you went about it, so. But luckily, we didn't have to wait too long, because you chronicled, like you said, the final two performances of the tour in the film right here, right now, which, again, I just need to state, it's the highest grossing Hard Rock Cinema event in North America, which is a crazy title to hold, but you ended that on the cliffhanger of all cliffhangers, like, right before revealing Papa 5. One thing I have to ask you is, I was in one of those audiences watching that film, and the first thing I heard very clearly when the credits rolled was someone behind me yell very lovingly, fuck you, Tobias Forge. Like, at the top of their lungs. So mad. Because they were like, what the fuck did you feel? Audiences cursing you at the end of that. Like, did you know that people were.

[Tobias Forge]

Gonna be like, no, I went to the premiere here In London. I'm currently in London. So I was here for the premiere. So that was the first time I saw it with essentially a bunch of strangers. And there was this murmur. Oh, no one. Like there was nothing cursed you. Like, not. No cursing. But yeah, there was definitely a noise that.

[Elena]

A grumble that went through.

[Ash]

It's your gotcha moment.

[Elena]

It is. It was such a good gotcha moment.

[Ash]

It's your gotcha moment.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like right up to it then just like, oh yeah, close the door. So in that film there's like a lot of allusions to twins and a lot of implications that there's twins involved in some other capacity than what we've seen. Is there. Can you tell us anything about that or should we just like shut up and wait?

[Tobias Forge]

No, it's easy. It's more fun if you, as a fan, you get to follow the story the way that I've rolled it out with the comic and onward. I, it's, it's a boring way to, to explain it, but it's, it's just better explained that way. I, I'm fascinated, not in like a Mengele sort of way about, about twins, but I, I think that the. There is a. There is this. I mean, obviously I do happen to have two children who are twins.

[Elena]

Me too.

[Tobias Forge]

But there, I think that there is this fascination with, especially when it comes to grown up people who've been separated at birth for this, that or the other reason, sometimes by accident, sometimes by choice, sometimes by, you know, force. More, more than often it's, it's been a, a result of, you know, girls who basically couldn't take care of their children and wasn't at that point maybe equipped or, or had the ability to take care of children, so they had no choice but to leave them up for adoption. And, and you know, there are cases where, where they, they have felt forced to give up one. And I've always been fascinated with, I don't know, the concept of family ties and, and bloodlines and, and all that. And I think that that, that comes not necessarily from the fact that I have twins myself, but it comes also from the fact I have several adopted siblings. And you know, just a few years ago I did what most people or a lot of people do nowadays. You do the ancestry and you know, you, you check your DNA and, and, and then you get like a whole slew of people that you're related all over the world. The place. And you know, dawned on me pretty quickly that if some of my siblings would do that their thing is completely different.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

That they, they belong to some other family with their own background and their own everything. And I really wish that they did in a way, but as far as I know, they haven't because it's, it's. It's such a trauma for them.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, I can imagine.

[Tobias Forge]

So when I say the word fascinating, it's not always like from a joyful. It's, it's, it's from a. It is, it's really affecting stuff. And, and it really can do a number on, on someone when you learn something about your life and especially if you feel that something that you believe was true was all of a sudden not true. In, in my family case, they are very well aware that they are adopted. So that, so that is not a thing. But I'm just saying that it's, it never does it become more clear. And one does the test and, you know, you can trace back and the other one to you is like, oh, that's cool.

[Elena]

Look at that.

[Ash]

That's a surprise.

[Elena]

And that's like a relatively new thing too. So I feel like that's like a whole new generation of people experiencing that, like, very specific and very unique kind of trauma sometimes. Because we didn't always have these tests that we could just like send away for and get the results on your phone.

[Tobias Forge]

No.

[Elena]

So it's very interesting.

[Tobias Forge]

Oh, it's, it's an interesting concept. And, And I think for the most part is. It's a really good thing. I, I do believe that, simply put, knowing your history and I found it to be very humbling to be able to look at my family tree and seeing all these people, obviously I. Most of them I couldn't see photos of or I could only see names. But you know, watching generation of, generation of people struggling and more than often, especially when you go back 100 years and it was. It's common that you see, you know, mom and dad. That gets like 12 kids.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

Out of six of them die.

[Elena]

It's wild.

[Tobias Forge]

Like a year, two years, three years.

[Elena]

And that was just normal back then.

[Tobias Forge]

It was a completely normal thing for us. It's like. That's a cataclysmic event.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

You can't even say that they weren't suffering, but I'm just saying that it was like a completely different time. And they spent very. Probably spent very little time wallowing in affairs and worldwide things that didn't bother that that wasn't directly affecting them. And they just kept head straight and they worked and they made sure. That the kids that survived, survived. And. And, you know, I. I have a tremendous amount of respect. What's the word? Humility.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

Like, all that work that was put in in order for me to sit here and talk.

[Elena]

That's a good way to look at it, actually.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That's what they did it for. So we could sit here and talk shit. Yeah.

[Ash]

You know.

[Elena]

Yeah. Well, getting away from the last tour and heading into the future a little bit. This album, I was lucky enough to listen to it.

[Ash]

It's.

[Elena]

This new album is. It's like a masterpiece. I'm obsessed with it. I love it. It might be. I think it's my favorite so far. It's really, really good. I can't get over it. I wanted to scream it from the rooftops. I really can't. And I know you're probably like, oh.

[Tobias Forge]

That'S what you tell everyone.

[Elena]

It's not.

[Ash]

She doesn't.

[Elena]

I really don't. I loved this one. I loved it immediately from the first note. And again, like, this album feels. It's just got, like, a different feel to it, and it feels more personal and a little more, like, introspective. Like, it just has a different vibe to it. A very good different vibe. Can you tell us a little bit about why, if I'm correct, why you might have went in that direction with this one?

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah, simply put, the. The previous record especially was such a channeling of. Of. Of me deciphering external influence. And I felt that even though I. I mean, I'm super proud of Impera, I thought that. That. That that was the record that I wanted to do at the time. Nothing wrong with that. But I felt not at all inspired and make a, you know, a sequel to that, like an impera 2. Even though, I mean, obviously there's plenty of fodder if you want to have, like, continue down that path, but just felt that that's not inspiring. That's not. It doesn't. That is simply not what I need. And. And therefore, hence, I don't think that that's what my, like, people are interested in, what I think, feel or need either. I'd rather make a more introspective record that. That deals with evergreen feelings and basic human sentiments and still hope it definitely.

[Elena]

Comes across in this one. Like, each one, I feel like it's kind of like a. Like a little mini movie that you can see in your head, and it feels like there's sentiments in each one that you can relate to on some level in some part of your life. You know what I mean? Like, they all have that. That's why this one struck me as so different. But it was different in the best kind of way.

[Tobias Forge]

I'm glad you say that. I. You know, at some point when you. When you, You, You. You. You sketch out this little idea that. Oh, so this is a thematic concept and. And these are a few songs that I've been fiddling with. And it's. It. There's always this process when you're. When you're practically putting together a record. And you know, at the end of the day, I mean, regardless. Regardless of what message that you want to stay on point with, you know, it still needs to be like a entertaining piece of work, a piece of art that. That, you know, with. With rhymes and new words. And so there's so many hurdles to go from like, a pure. Pure intuitive idea to actually looking at, like, 42 minutes of qualitative entertainment.

[Elena]

Yeah, that must. I can't imagine that.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Having to boil it all down to that and making it, like, palatable.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah. I mean, but that's. That's what I do, so I love that. But. But it's definitely, like. It's always a challenge.

[Elena]

Oh, I'm sure.

[Tobias Forge]

Fun challenge. But. But it's always. Especially when you're trying to do thematic things. That's why I'm. That's why sometimes I'm also like, using the theme as. As like a. It's. That's a loose direction that I've. That I've used as a. More originally most for myself in order to sort of stay on. On Brand might be the one, but stay on point, stay on, stay focused. So I know where not to go.

[Elena]

Stay the course.

[Ash]

Yeah. Did you have a bit of a different process, writing the songs this time around? No, no, Same process.

[Tobias Forge]

Same process.

[Ash]

All right.

[Tobias Forge]

It's simply because I don't. I. I don't really have one. Go to process. So I was using the same process. Cs. This is. I. I think that this was the first time. First record where I worked with collaborators that I. And I. I worked only with collaborators that I worked with quite a lot before. I didn't have any new. Any new blood. So we were. We were working with. With a certain amount of rapport and background, which was very comforting because you trust the other people. You trust them. You know that we're. We're working towards the same goal and everybody has, you know, the intent of making. Making everything as good as possible. I know that no one. Who the hell would go into A production with. With the opposite.

[Elena]

You never know. That'd be weird. You just never know anymore.

[Tobias Forge]

Definitely feel sometimes that someone is phoning it in and especially if it's like a big production with a lot of people and obviously someone is there. Someone is there because they're getting paid, so. And they're. They're functional too, so it's. That's not a problem. But yeah, nobody. It was. It was quite closely knit and we. We were not a. Like a big bunch of people working on this one. And you know, as some of you fans might know, that. That we. I basically have a little bit of a divide between how I make the records and. And then who is performing on stage and you know, across, you know, my 15 years career as, as this band, I've. I've experimented a little bit with that, but I've learned the hard way that it's. If. If you're not going to use everyone, it's better to use no one. Like, if. If. If not everybody's being called in for their ability and their. Their special gift. Anybody who's excluded from that is going to. They're going to take that the wrong way.

[Elena]

It's not going to be great.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah. So it's just better. I've just found it more comforting and more. More productive and nicer to everybody to just work with others. And then once we get the band together, you know, then we haven't nagged each other down, worn each other down throughout the process of making a record, which a lot of other bands do. You know, I'm sure it road. They have already been in the studio and, you know, killing each other for a year.

[Ash]

Oh yeah, you hear about that all the time. Some of the greatest bands like Fleetwood Mac wanted to kill each other half the time.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah. Making records, especially if you are collaborating, it is very. I don't have a better word. It's an intimate process.

[Elena]

I'm sure.

[Tobias Forge]

You know, it's a very. You have to. You have to be very open and daring.

[Elena]

Well, and it's kind of like you're letting your own, like personal journal, your own diary. You're giving it to a bunch of people to kind of help make into something that everyone's gonna listen to. I can't imagine that.

[Tobias Forge]

No, but that. It's pretty much what you do. Of course, when you've done it a couple times, you don't. It's. It's simply not a part of your. It's kind of like getting naked with someone you're together with. Like it's that it's not a thing after a while that you're, you know, and. And once you. You've started writing with someone and it feels good, it does come more naturally. You don't have that initial obstacle of, you know, having to put shades down.

[Elena]

Well, and we. The first single video for that is coming out from this album is Satanized. And it. When this episode airs, it has come out already. That video is amazing. Loved that video. It is the first reveal of Papa 5 Papa Perpetua and it's a phenomenal reveal. At the end of the video. I think Ash actually filmed me watching it for the first time and I was like speechless. I couldn't even form words. I have a couple of questions about that video and again, if you can't answer, just say absolutely not. Is that you heavily, heavily made up as the priest?

[Tobias Forge]

Yes.

[Elena]

I mean, I knew it.

[Tobias Forge]

The point is not that it's me, it's point that it's a priest.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Tobias Forge]

I want people to focus on the priest.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

I mean, of course. I mean, I understand that people will sort of notice. It's, it's. It's good. It was hard, good prosthetics. But it's obviously not to the point where I'm completely beyond. But the song itself had. Has a. So this is how meta and weird Ghost is sometimes.

[Elena]

Love that.

[Tobias Forge]

The song is written in I form, I perspective. But on the record, Papa the Fifth Perpetua is singing, pretending to be another character. Right.

[Elena]

Oh, I think I'm right about my theory.

[Ash]

Elena has quite a theory and I.

[Tobias Forge]

Think you just confirmed it because Papa the Fifth Perpetua is a singer in a band. So as any other band who has songs that are written in I form can be about someone else. They're not always about their personal experience. Them personal.

[Elena]

Oh, that's good to know.

[Tobias Forge]

So in the video that a. A problem sort of arose because of this. Because we needed. My idea was for this love stricken monk to go through the hurdles of confusing his infatuation with. With being possessed. And of course his surroundings within the monastery. Of course, Dave, they confirmed that the symptoms that he's showing is clearly the sickness of being possessed by a demon. And the cure for this is, you know, an exorcism and repentance and all that. So technically, you know, it was important that. Okay. So I mean, obviously I can't transform into Papa. That becomes really poor and bad.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

So we needed to have a. Another character coming in. So we had this, this. He's a Swedish actor. I don't know if anyone. You recognize him.

[Elena]

He was familiar, but I couldn't, I didn't know if it was just because he has a very kind face.

[Tobias Forge]

No, his name is, I hope I say this right, internationally, like David Denchik. And he is, he's been in all kinds of stuff. Like he was in, in a James Bond film.

[Elena]

Oh, wow.

[Tobias Forge]

A lot of Swedish and Scandinavian films. I mean, he, he stars. He's half. I think he's half Danish or something.

[Elena]

Oh, okay.

[Tobias Forge]

So. So he's in a lot of Danish films.

[Ash]

Oh, that's cool.

[Elena]

So maybe it wasn't just his kind face.

[Tobias Forge]

Like a really, like, he's a very talented actor. He's very, very well known in Sweden, Denmark, Scandinavia. Hugely talented. Very, very nice. Lots of fun to work with. So he really graced that video with this, this, this personality that I think was needed and which, which sort of put me in a little bit of a, you know, being superfluous, which is fine. I don't have to star or anything, but somebody needed to be the priest. And it's always interesting to be plain hassle.

[Elena]

That must be the most fun. I feel like.

[Tobias Forge]

Absolutely.

[Elena]

The villain is always the most fun.

[Tobias Forge]

If I, if I looked more like a stereotypical sort of strong, angry man, like, you know, with all those features, you know how some men are just badass.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Tobias Forge]

I can't really play that. You know. You know, what you're looking at right now is me sort of having spent some time being sick.

[Elena]

I'm glad you're feeling better. By the.

[Tobias Forge]

I'm sort of in home mode, in the sort of. The hobo look, it's chic, but, you know, when I'm clean shaven and all, I can't really scare people. And sometimes as an actor, I mean, as. To whatever extent I am an actor.

[Elena]

At some point, I would say so.

[Tobias Forge]

You just have to live with the fact that you're, you know, what your look is.

[Elena]

Sort of got to work with it.

[Tobias Forge]

You can play with. That's what you can play with. I had to screw him up with a. With some sort of feature that gave him a little bit more of a character.

[Elena]

I loved it. I'm so glad you confirmed it for me because it was driving me insane. I've been saying it in here. I'm like, am I just like looking for things that aren't there or am I going crazy now? But in that same video. Cause we've. I had to analyze it a million times. Corinthians 6, 19 flashes across the screen. It's in the little notebook. It's definitely, like, right there. And in case anybody didn't, you know, immediately look up that verse in the Bible, I did not know what that verse was at first because I'm not super up on my biblical verses now. Before this interview, I think I'm like, an expert on the Book of Revelations, by the way. I'm telling everybody's stories.

[Ash]

Elena's held her own Bible study now.

[Elena]

I have now, so I know all about it. But Corinthians is basically touching upon, like, sexual immorality. It's when Paul went to the Corinthians and told them, you know, stop being so loose with your business. And the Corinthians were like, well, why does it matter? This body doesn't go with me when I leave, so, like, it doesn't matter what I do with it. And he's like, no, it's a temple for God, and you're sullying it with your reckless, you know, sexy time. So that's the story there in a very loose form. Obviously not the word of God. And this seems to be a theme, obviously, of the Satanized video, for sure. Like, we see the nun showing some clogged ankle.

[Ash]

Love for a minute.

[Elena]

Loved her. I thought she. Her facial expressions are so good. And it's. It's part of the video. It's part of everything for this. And there's another song. I won't name it because it's obviously not out yet that I listened to on the album that definitely had some, like, spiciness in it, I would say. So it had, like, a similar theme of this, but I wanted to know if that kind of theme plays, like, a bigger role at all in the thematic arch of the album as a whole, or if it's just kind of like. Just a part of something bigger.

[Tobias Forge]

You mean Book of Revelations or the Corinthians?

[Elena]

Corinthians, I would say. Like, that whole, like, sexual immorality thing.

[Tobias Forge]

This is. I mean, no, this was specific to this song.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Tobias Forge]

Just because it. In. In. In that specific verse, I can't paraphrase it in English exactly what it says, but it. But it's. It's somewhere along the lines of keep your body clean because at the end of the day, you know, it belongs to God.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

And in the context of the song and. And the meaning of the video, I think it's fairly poignant and on. On point to this misconception that anybody who's love stricken is somehow opening themselves up to destroying their bond and their covenant with God, a higher being, which is completely wild, unfathomable, truly.

[Elena]

And what is. And again, you might not be able to answer this, but in the notebook, we were looking at what the things that were written in there, because they were funny in the music video. And there's something that's crossed out. Can you tell us what that said? Because I think next to it, it says, like, idiot.

[Tobias Forge]

I think the first thing that was crossed out was masturbate. Question mark.

[Elena]

Yeah, that was definitely one.

[Tobias Forge]

And obviously he didn't want to suggest that. And then it's, Was it suicide?

[Ash]

Oh, that's what it was.

[Tobias Forge]

But he didn't want to, like, no, that's not great.

[Elena]

He didn't want to suggest that.

[Tobias Forge]

Maybe he was starting going through the Bible verses there and he landed on 2 Corinthians. And anybody who knows current history knows that 2 Corinthians does not exist. It's 2nd Corinthians. But when you pose with the Bible and try to trick your followers that you have any clue what you're talking about and you say that wrong, it becomes kind of humoristic.

[Elena]

It does.

[Tobias Forge]

So that was a little bit of.

[Elena]

A little nod, an Easter egg there, a little wink. I like that. All right. I'm glad we know what that is now. It was driving us nuts. We're like, what does that say? It has an S in the beginning. So quick little, like, side question. Have you ever seen the Devils with Oliver Reed and Vanessa Redgrave?

[Tobias Forge]

I. I don't know. Off the top of my head.

[Elena]

You should watch it.

[Tobias Forge]

I believe that this is a quite old film, right?

[Elena]

It is, and it was, like, banned, but I think, like, the W. Like, Warner Brothers wouldn't release it again. So it's one of those things you have to go looking for.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I don't remember. I don't remember. I vaguely have it in the back of my head. I think I know which film it is. I sometimes I do have a problem remembering or simply detecting which. Which film someone is referring to. Because even though in Sweden we don't dub films, we have other titles for the films.

[Elena]

Oh, I didn't even think of that.

[Tobias Forge]

Which is too, too, too much ridicule and the laughings of my band members, band that I'm traveling with because they have picked up on this little anomaly in Swedish cinema.

[Elena]

I kind of love that.

[Tobias Forge]

So sometimes I get the question, like, what's this called in Swedish? So, like, simple old school things. It's like Jaws is called Haiyan. And that means the shark.

[Ash]

There you go.

[Tobias Forge]

And you know, Towering Inferno is. And that means the skyscraper is on fire.

[Elena]

I'm obsessed.

[Ash]

I love how literal.

[Elena]

That one's. Awesome.

[Tobias Forge]

Like, you know, over the course of touring and. And. And you sit in the bus and. And do exactly what we're talking about right now. Like, you just like, have you seen this film?

[Elena]

I'm like, maybe.

[Tobias Forge]

No. Then I see, you know, a picture of it. Oh, yeah, of course I've seen this. But, you know, I remember this film and then I have to tell them the title. And it's like, it's such a simplified, stupid.

[Elena]

I love it.

[Tobias Forge]

You know, the old one that's fairly known is that all Mel Brooks films in Swedish is called Springtime 4.

[Ash]

Huh.

[Tobias Forge]

Springtime for Hitler.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Tobias Forge]

And a lot of the Goldie Hawn films was the Girl who Fell Overboard, the Girl who Did Military Service Knew Too Much.

[Elena]

I love that words are added into the title too. Like, overboard is not just overboard. It's like, we have to explain. Explain it first.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah, all the. All the, you know, national lapoons, National Vacation or Christmas vacation, all that. Yeah, all the. All the ones that. All the Clark were Clark Griswold films. They're called A Pair for a Dad.

[Elena]

A pair.

[Tobias Forge]

It's Paron til Fasha. So that means like a pair, as in. In the. The fruit.

[Elena]

Oh, like, I thought you meant a pair for.

[Tobias Forge]

For a dad.

[Ash]

Huh.

[Tobias Forge]

Celebrating Christmas for a dad on a European vacation.

[Elena]

You know, why is there a pair?

[Tobias Forge]

So when I say if I. If I ask anyone in Sweden, like, have you seen National Lampoon's European Vacation? They'd be like, they will most likely not know what I'm talking about.

[Ash]

They're like, is that the one with the pear? The.

[Elena]

With the pear. You rocking up?

[Tobias Forge]

That's the one with the pear, yeah.

[Elena]

That's amazing. I'm kind of obsessed with that.

[Ash]

You're gonna have to let us know. Devil has a different. Or the Devils has a different name. It's the one written, produced and directed by Ken Russell.

[Elena]

Is it Criterion? Are the people who made it?

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

I don't know why. In my head. Yeah, it's from there.

[Tobias Forge]

I'm gonna check it. Vanessa Red Grape.

[Elena]

Yeah. And Oliver Reed.

[Tobias Forge]

So, yeah. Yeah. Oh, this rings a bell.

[Elena]

Because as soon as I watched the Satanize video, for some reason, that movie just kind of like, popped in my head and I was like, huh, Got out okay. Yeah. So moving away from the Satanized video, we have a couple of, like, kind of random questions for you. But last time you were on we had a lot of random questions for you and people really liked hearing what you had to say about very random things. So I'm sure you know this, that you grew up in Sweden. Is there any folklore or tales that you heard growing up that you think maybe shaped how you approach music or just creating cool shit?

[Tobias Forge]

No, I mean, obviously I. My music for almost forever. I mean, as soon as I started writing songs especially for bands and stuff, it was always driven by a certain level of supernatural presence, if you will, because, you know, I started writing songs for like especially metal and death metal and stuff like that. So of course there's this supernatural horror element and then that. That just sort of continued even through my sort of inter wall bands where it was still sort of darkish. And now obviously it's influenced by that too, or at least wrapped in a. In some sort of wrapping that supposed to. So of course I. I think that Scandinavian folklore had. I don't know how it is nowadays because I'm. I'm obviously not a child now and I. I do have children though, so I'm not sure if they. I'm not sure that they have sort of dealt with. With the same fairy tale, you know, murkiness that. That even when I was a kid and. And Scandinavian folklore is a lot about trolls and. And various creatures that live in the forest.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Tobias Forge]

Where I grew up in shopping, we had. I mean anybody traveling to Lynchopping or anybody who's ever been there knows that there's a. There's a stream going through the. The city and it's. It's like a built stream and it's. It's in the form of sort of a city park, if you will. It's not just sort of licking between the. The houses. It's. It's like a. It's like a long, long park that goes through the town because it's part of a system called Yata Canal, a channel. It's. It's adjointed to. To Yatakanal. It has these sluices and. And stuff, so you can actually take the boat.

[Elena]

Oh, okay.

[Tobias Forge]

On and. And travel.

[Ash]

Oh, that's cool.

[Tobias Forge]

And where I grew up and where my kindergarten was, it's still there. It's still a functioning kindergarten. Like a daycare place. It was really nice because we had it. It was sitting right. Right next to. Very near the. This stream.

[Elena]

Oh, that's cool.

[Tobias Forge]

So there was like a huge part, like a big park right next to where we were and. And we had the sluice, you know, where. Where old wooden.

[Elena]

Oh, that's cool.

[Tobias Forge]

Boats would come and they would, you know, fill water up and. And. But there was also, like a waterfall. There is. This is actually a pretty beautiful place. If anybody travels to Lynn shopping at some point, go down to Hawaii. It's called Hawaii because it's like a little peninsula where.

[Elena]

That's cool.

[Tobias Forge]

Where me and my friends and. And everybody we knew would go with six packs and get.

[Ash]

We all have that one place.

[Elena]

Not when you were in kindergarten. It was later.

[Tobias Forge]

Not when I was in kindergarten, but. But anyway. And there's this character in Swedish folklore called Nikken. And he is like a naked man sitting.

[Elena]

That's scary.

[Tobias Forge]

By the water in a waterfall or where the water streams downstream. And he would sit there and play fiddle naked. And if you ever hear him, you will be enchanted by his playing. And you will. And he will lure you and he will drown you.

[Ash]

Oh, that got dark so fast.

[Elena]

All right.

[Ash]

At first I was like, all right, sounds cool. Like this guy.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Then I was like, oh, I like the fiddle music.

[Tobias Forge]

When I was little and, you know, and on a. And we were down there playing. You couldn't help but to sort of think that if there was such a thing as Nekken, he would probably sit right over there. Sounds like it's a typical neck in place to sit.

[Elena]

Yeah, why not?

[Ash]

If we know anything about Necken. Yeah, he's gonna sit there.

[Elena]

He's gonna sit in that waterfall.

[Ash]

That's great.

[Elena]

So, Tobias, we told you at the beginning of the episode that we had a very special guest who wanted to come in and just congratulate you and say, hey.

[Ash]

So if you want, we can let them in now if that's good.

[Tobias Forge]

No, of course. Who is it, please?

[Doug Douglas]

I'm very nearly here.

[Elena]

He's here.

[Ash]

Welcome to the show. Doug Douglas.

[Doug Douglas]

Hi, Toby.

[Tobias Forge]

Hey, man.

[Doug Douglas]

How are you?

[Tobias Forge]

I'm very well. How are you?

[Doug Douglas]

Good, good. I'm doing fine. Doing just fine. It's been a while. Covid kept getting in the way, huh?

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah. Have we not seen each other since then?

[Doug Douglas]

I think at the Peterson, they wouldn't let us backstage. And then I think. I think the last one, you needed to kind of voice preservation. Energy. Preservation.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah, I remember that now.

[Doug Douglas]

You didn't need annoying groupies.

[Tobias Forge]

Exactly. No. And I might have been also disturbed by. Do you still have that insect infestation in Pittsburgh?

[Elena]

Oh, that was crazy. Which one?

[Doug Douglas]

We had. We had the stink bugs.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah.

[Doug Douglas]

Then that was followed by the. The. The spotted lanternflies.

[Ash]

Oh, even worse.

[Tobias Forge]

That was what I was referring to. But I just wanted. Conclusively, I would just want to say we are coming to Pittsburgh.

[Doug Douglas]

You are?

[Elena]

Yes.

[Tobias Forge]

Yeah. This summer. So I'm looking forward to see both of you then.

[Doug Douglas]

Yeah. We already have our tickets. We will be there.

[Elena]

Yay. We'll all be there.

[Tobias Forge]

We'll meet up some bugless place.

[Doug Douglas]

Congratulations on the movie.

[Tobias Forge]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Doug Douglas]

Which was terrific. And so the tour upcoming. You could lay claim to being the hardest working man in show business. I think.

[Elena]

I think so.

[Tobias Forge]

I. I try to put my models, but. But it's.

[Doug Douglas]

I think it will be 10 years this year since we first saw you. Is it House of Dallas? I think 2015. Was it?

[Elena]

Damn.

[Doug Douglas]

14. I'm losing.

[Tobias Forge]

Okay.

[Doug Douglas]

11 years.

[Elena]

Look at that.

[Doug Douglas]

Yeah, I bet they're gonna go.

[Tobias Forge]

You just happened to step in on the one night when we didn't do that.

[Doug Douglas]

Elena, congratulations on the novel.

[Elena]

Oh, thank you so much.

[Doug Douglas]

Hugely.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Doug Douglas]

With a plot twist for the age, which I did not see coming.

[Elena]

Thank you so much.

[Doug Douglas]

I mean, that was literally a kind of.

[Elena]

What? That was the plan. So I'm glad it worked.

[Doug Douglas]

I haven't cleared the decks for the sequel.

[Elena]

It's coming. The third one's coming. So get ready.

[Doug Douglas]

Do you stop at a trilogy or do you just.

[Elena]

I'll keep going. Probably you'll get some more.

[Doug Douglas]

I didn't grabbing you on anything, Ash.

[Elena]

But that's okay.

[Ash]

I just exist.

[Doug Douglas]

Congratulations for being wonderful.

[Ash]

Oh, thank you. Back at you, Doug.

[Elena]

Look at the love here. This was so amazing. And it was so amazing to have Doug come in as a surprise guest. We wanted to give you that at the end. I know it'd be fun. We love Doug, so thank you for coming, Doug. We love Tobias. We love Doug. It's just all love here. And just to wrap it up, the album comes out on April 25th. It's incredible. Everybody go get it. Because you won't be disappointed. The single for Satanized and the Sister and Predator comic are available now. When this episode comes out, you can access all the above, plus some really sick merch on ghost-official.com and I encourage you to do it. Tobias, you're amazing. We're huge fans. We'll stick with you. Can't wait to see you on tour. We'll be at a couple of the dates.

[Tobias Forge]

Looking forward to that.

[Elena]

And thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming on. We really, really appreciate it.

[Tobias Forge]

Thank you.

[Ash]

And we hope you guys keep listening.

[Elena]

And we hope you keep it.

[Ash]

H.

[Doug Douglas]

Can't find my go away button.

[Ash]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey hey weirdos. If you guys know one thing about us, it's that we love a deep dive. Well, if you're looking for a limited series that will completely consume you, we've got you covered. Those sketchy texts you're always getting? Sometimes there's something way darker behind them. Imagine helping your brother land a dream job abroad only to discover you've trapped him in a nightmare. We're talking armed guards with shoot to kill orders and thousands forced to scam others just to stay alive. Wondery's new podcast, Scam Factory follows one family's desperate fight to save their brother from a multi billion dollar criminal empire where the only way out is to become part of the scheme that trapped you. Are you looking for a wild story that'll keep you up at night? Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.