Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell

Summary

Podcast Summary: Morbid Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell Release Date: March 31, 2025
Host/Author: Morbid Network | Wondery

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1. Introduction

In Episode 659 of Morbid, hosts Ash and Mike delve into the haunting unsolved murder of Kristin O’Connell. The episode provides a comprehensive overview of Kristin’s life, the tragic events leading to her death, the subsequent investigation, and the enduring quest for justice by her family.

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2. Kristin O’Connell: A Life

Early Years and Family Background

Kristin Marie O’Connell was born on January 12, 1965, in Burnsville, Minnesota, to parents Michael and Phyllis O’Connell. She was one of two siblings, raised alongside her brother Kyle. Kristin was described by her father as "a really fun, really easygoing, outgoing child" (10:15). Despite her bubbly nature, she possessed a serious side, deeply rooted in her faith. At the age of ten, after the death of her grandmother, Kristin turned to her religious beliefs for comfort, stating in a letter, "Death is a subject pushed aside, never talked about. I think it should be talked about. It's a part of life…" (10:44).

Personality and Interests

Kristin was known for her kindness and openness. Her mother recalled, "We had a great relationship, and she was the one all the boys wanted to marry" (11:12). She had a profound love for horses, working part-time at a local stable and boarding her own horse. Her Aunt Barb noted, "She was the type of person that wanted to sit and chat about anything and everything going on with her life" (11:32).

Education and Career Aspirations

After graduating high school, Kristin attended the University of Wisconsin Stout, majoring in hotel and restaurant management—a field that highlighted her organizational skills and people-oriented demeanor (11:42). Her academic pursuits were seen as a testament to her dedication and intelligence.

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3. The Relationship and Journey to New York

Meeting James Vermeers Jr.

During a spring break vacation in Captiva Island, Florida, Kristin met 18-year-old James Vermeers Jr., a waiter from Ovid, New York. Their immediate connection led them to continue their relationship through letters and phone calls, hinting at a budding romantic interest (13:00). Kristin decided to visit James in New York to deepen their connection, planning a trip just weeks before returning to university (13:09).

Parental Concerns and Approval

Kristin’s mother, Phyllis, was initially apprehensive about her daughter’s unaccompanied trip to another state. According to Kristin’s brother, Kyle, there were heated discussions before Michael convinced Phyllis to grant permission, trusting Kristin’s responsibility and judgment (14:07).

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4. The Fateful Night

Arrival and Change of Plans

Kristin arrived in Syracuse, New York, on August 12, staying at James’s parents’ property. Initially expected to stay at their home, she was instead told the plans had changed to staying in a trailer—a change that raised some concern (18:09).

Events Leading to Disappearance

On August 14, Kristin spent the day swimming, playing pool, and socializing with James and his friends. Later that night, around 11:00 PM, James mentioned picking up pizza, while Kristin decided to take a late-night walk—a routine she was accustomed to in Minnesota’s safer subdivisions (20:05). Witnesses reported hearing a "horrific scream" around midnight, and Kristin was later found dead in a cornfield with her throat slashed and multiple stab wounds (23:18).

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5. Investigation and Police Response

Initial Police Efforts

Upon James reporting Kristin missing the following morning, a search team comprising 90 officers and firefighters searched the area, discovering her body about 300 yards into a cornfield along Route 139. Fire Chief Robert Favreau remarked, "This is an awful way to end it…" (24:56).

Evidence and Forensic Challenges

Kristin’s death was classified as a homicide with signs of a violent struggle. However, investigators encountered significant challenges:

• Lack of Physical Evidence: No murder weapon was found, and only minor evidence like soil and blood samples was collected (25:07).
• Absence of Immediate Suspects: All individuals present at the party were quickly ruled out due to their respectable backgrounds and lack of motive (27:09).

Potential Serial Killer Angle

Amid rising fears due to recent escapes of convicted murderers Hugh Colum and Bernard Welch from a Chicago correctional facility, speculation arose about their possible involvement. However, Colum was later arrested in Mississippi, effectively eliminating him as a suspect (26:05).

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6. Community Impact and Fear

Heightened Fear and Community Response

The unsolved murder of Kristin O’Connell was the fourth in Seneca County within a little over a year, a rarity in the predominantly safe community. This spike in violent crimes led to the establishment of neighborhood watch programs and heightened security consciousness among residents (39:09).

Publicity and Media Involvement

Despite initial media coverage, the case quickly faded from public attention, contributing to a sense of unresolved fear and frustration within the community. Police Chief Ferdinand Ningandry noted, "We haven’t talked much about it anymore" (39:09).

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7. Family's Quest for Justice

Personal Investigation Efforts

Kristin’s parents, Michael and Phyllis O’Connell, took proactive steps to find answers:

• Hiring Private Investigators: They sought external help to uncover leads outside the official investigation (49:15).
• Engaging Psychics: On the second anniversary of Kristin’s murder, they enlisted psychics in hopes of receiving new insights (50:31).

Enduring Hope and Advocacy

Despite their relentless efforts, including traveling to witness crime scenes and advocating for forensic advancements, the O’Connells faced numerous setbacks, including the untimely death of Michael a year later (51:52).

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8. Modern Forensic Challenges

Advancements and Bureaucratic Hurdles

Years later, advances in DNA technology provided new opportunities to solve cold cases like Kristin’s. However, significant obstacles hindered progress:

• Lab Certification Issues: A pioneering Dutch forensic lab specializing in touch DNA was denied authorization by the New York State Health Department to analyze Kristin’s samples, citing certification challenges (53:07). District Attorney Richard Swinehart expressed frustration, stating, "We are very frustrated with the bureaucracy of the Department of Health…" (54:11).
• Scientific Misconduct: The involvement of a forensic scientist implicated in evidence falsification further complicated the potential for accurate analysis, leaving critical DNA evidence unverified (56:00).

Family and Public Advocacy

Kristin’s family and supportive community members launched petitions and public campaigns to pressure authorities into allowing advanced forensic testing, emphasizing the degrading state of stored evidence and the possibility of solving the case with modern technology (56:31).

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9. Current Efforts and Advocacy

Ongoing Campaigns for Justice

In 2023, Phyllis O’Connell remained steadfast in her pursuit of justice, advocating for the approval of forensic testing to finally uncover the truth behind her daughter’s murder. The hosts, Ash and Mike, actively encourage listeners to support these efforts by signing petitions and sharing awareness about the case (58:35).

Call to Action

Ash and Mike emphasize the importance of community involvement and the need to overcome bureaucratic delays to ensure that no other family endures the pain of an unsolved murder. They urge listeners to take action, "Come on, politicians and everybody and whoever's like red taping this… just give it a shot" (60:04).

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10. Conclusion

The unsolved murder of Kristin O’Connell remains a chilling reminder of the unresolved injustices that haunt communities. Despite years of investigation and technological advancements, the case continues to elude resolution, highlighting systemic challenges in law enforcement and forensic processes. Ash and Mike conclude the episode by reiterating the importance of public support and relentless advocacy in bringing closure to Kristin’s family.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael O’Connell: "They’re covering something up… because they haven’t come up with a good viable reason why this should not be allowed." (55:07)
• Phyllis O’Connell: "Don't keep secrets. Don't keep something like this going, because maybe the next person might be your daughter." (57:52)

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Call to Action: Listeners are encouraged to support the O’Connell family’s efforts by signing the petition and sharing information related to the case. Any leads or information can be reported to the New York State Police at 585-398-4125.

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Additional Resources:

• Petition Link: Available in the show notes and on Morbid’s social media channels.
• Related Episodes: Explore more true crime stories on Morbid and related podcasts like Against the Odds.

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This summary encapsulates the key points and emotional depth of Kristin O’Connell’s unsolved murder case as discussed in Morbid Episode 659. Through detailed storytelling and compelling quotes, listeners gain insight into the complexities and enduring quest for justice surrounding this tragic event.

Transcript

[Ash]

Hey weirdos, it's Ash here. Ready to share a little secret. Have you heard of Wondery Plus? With ad free episodes and one week early access, it's like having an all access pass to our lighthearted nightmare. So come join us on the dark side and try Wondery today. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid network podcast.

[Elena]

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[Ash]

Maybe you want to kick a bad.

[Elena]

Habit or start a good one. Speaking of, I'm actually listening to the Secret on Audible. I love that title so much and 10 out of 10 recommend the soundscaping is pristine. Get advice and insight from leading professionals and experts on health, relationship, career, finance, investing and more. There's so much opportunity to learn and more to imagine when you listen. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.commorbid there's a lot in life that feels like it should be guaranteed, but it just isn't.

[Ash]

Things like your friends being on their.

[Elena]

Way when they text you omw. Or getting out the same number of socks from the dryer that you put in. AT&T is introducing a new guarantee, the AT&T guarantee. Because there's a lot in life that's not guaranteed. The AT&T guarantee means connectivity you can depend on, deals you want and service you deserve, or they'll make it right. Visit att.com guarantee to learn more. @t connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guaranty for details.

[Ash]

Hey weirdos. I'm Ash.

[Mike]

And I'm Elena.

[Ash]

And this is Morbid in the Morning.

[Mike]

We haven't done one of these in a little while.

[Ash]

I know. I had a merch idea this morning actually when I was driving here, I was like, oh, I get to say that it's morbid in the morning. We should just do like a shirt that says like Morbid in the morning. Like like maybe like embroidered on like the shirt with like a little coffee cup.

[Mike]

Yeah, that's how I pictured it too.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Mike]

I love that.

[Ash]

Yay.

[Mike]

We'll do that.

[Ash]

We'll do that someday.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I love that idea. Thank you.

[Mike]

I had a strange dream last night and I don't remember the the dream itself. This is going to sound so random, but I remember in the dream, someone was using pemdas to solve an equation.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. Parentheses, exponents, multiplication, division, subtraction, addition, subtraction, addition, subtraction.

[Mike]

Yes. And I woke up and I said, what is the E in pemdas? That was the first thought. The first thought I had this morning. I rolled over and I looked at John and I said, do you remember what the E is in pemdas? And he was like, you just opened your eyes, like, what do you mean?

[Ash]

And I was like, how dare you assault me?

[Mike]

He literally was like, what are you talking about? And I was like, pemdas. You know how you like. Oh, yeah. But it was literally, he had just opened his eyes and he was like, I remember what PEM does. And I was like, exponent. And he was like, what is happening? Like, he was like, we're not even.

[Ash]

Out of bed to the power of baby.

[Mike]

But I was like, exponent. I remember it now. And then I got really happy that I remembered it. And then I was like, that was the weirdest set of events.

[Ash]

One thing I was really good at in school was math. Weirdly, yeah, That's.

[Mike]

I mean, I was not great at math.

[Ash]

I fucked heavy with pub das.

[Mike]

I'm struggling. I'm trying to help the girls with their math.

[Ash]

Well, that's not our math.

[Mike]

But even like the. The basic shit, like, they started learning fractions and I was like, fudge me right up.

[Ash]

I'm pretty. I wasn't great with fractions. It's not my favorite.

[Mike]

I'm figuring it out.

[Ash]

Honestly, I just think of baking. Well, that's.

[Mike]

Honestly, I think baking has helped me because I like, just be.

[Ash]

But the problem is when you're baking, I have like a Google home thing. So I'll just be like, hey, Google, what's like, yeah, how do I make like blah blah blah out of blah blah blah? So you don't do like. You don't exercise that part of your brain.

[Mike]

Yeah, see, and they're doing like full on, like, you know.

[Ash]

Right.

[Mike]

But, you know, we're getting there. We're learning math.

[Ash]

There you go.

[Mike]

And. Oh, I have something to tell you guys. That's just like a fun little thing. I'm not. We're not being paid by this company. I just really like this thing. See, I do too. They can be a sponsor if they.

[Ash]

Want to, but I mean, we're both very passionate.

[Mike]

They. Yeah. So this is. I found this in case. I feel like a lot of people could use this right now, just with the state of the world. It's this app that's like described as a self care Tamagotchi, which it literally is, which immediately drew me into it. I said yes. And it's called Finch F I N C H. Like the bird.

[Ash]

Cute.

[Mike]

And you literally take care of this little bird by doing things for yourself, for yourself. And like you let. And it's a very good app. Like, it's really good. I've been using it for two full weeks now. Same. And it's like actually helping me be more mindful. So basically you just kind of like list out things that you would like to accomplish for the day. They literally give you a list to begin with. And one of those things is get out.

[Ash]

Get out of bed.

[Mike]

So it's like you, you don't have to shoot for the stars. Like it's. And you can check that off. I got out of bed and it gives you like a. Yay. You did it. And so like I have like, you know, drinking a certain amount of water and making sure I do that. Like read for 10 minutes, write for 20 minutes. Like make sure I have all these little like, you know, and you can say like, you know, brush your teeth.

[Ash]

Yeah. Some of mine are like home cooked meal. Like eat dinner at home.

[Mike]

Some of them are like, I have put one item away that is not in its place because like with kids things just get wild in the. You know. And so doing that is like something that can start you on like a chain rising somewhere. One of them is smile at yourself in the mirror.

[Ash]

I love that.

[Mike]

Which actually really, it sounds weird and it sounds crazy, but it, it can bring you up a little bit.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And not just like smile at yourself in the thing.

[Ash]

Definitely not won't do anything.

[Mike]

Look at yourself and genuinely smile at yourself in the mirror and it will give you a little boost of like.

[Ash]

Chip Skylark in the mirror. Babe.

[Mike]

There you go. Like do it.

[Ash]

Yeah. Your shiny teeth and you.

[Mike]

It's true. I have turn off notifications for an hour.

[Ash]

Oh, I love that.

[Mike]

Which is great.

[Ash]

I don't need to have that as a goal. I just do that.

[Mike]

Yeah, I usually do that. But I, I literally like phone upstairs. Don't even.

[Ash]

Oh yeah. Do not disturb is my. Especially on the weekends if you can't get in touch with me. I'm on do not disturb.

[Mike]

I have take a short walk without distractions.

[Ash]

I have my kids, my hour walk every day on mine.

[Mike]

And you. So like you check them off and it gives you a little Bird energy. And your little bird goes on adventures every day and then tells you about it.

[Ash]

At the end of the day they discover something new.

[Mike]

Yeah. And it's just like, it's a cute little thing. It might help you just like check off some little things that you would like to make habits out of or try. Try to just, you know, make yourself feel good. I also highly recommend it.

[Ash]

Yeah, I feel like it's good for like kids too. Like, you know, like if you're like 13 year old or whatever, however old your kid is that has a phone, it's like a good app to like teach them, you know, like do things for yourself. Self care. Exactly.

[Mike]

And turning like healthy things. Routines. Like I literally like work out for 15 minutes on there. Cuz it's literally like just move for 15 minutes. So I. I highly recommend it. And again, we're not being sponsored by that. This is just. This is just one of those recommendation moments that I think would benefit a lot of people. So.

[Ash]

Yeah, no, Elena told me about it and I've used it every day since.

[Mike]

Oh, and there's also a little thing. This. This made me happy.

[Ash]

Yeah, there's like even more stuff than just.

[Mike]

There's a lot of. Yeah, there's a lot of things that you can do on here. So I. I recommend you download it and kind of explore it a little bit.

[Ash]

Check it out.

[Mike]

Because there's something called like. Like they have like breathing techniques.

[Ash]

Those are nice.

[Mike]

They have movements. Like they. They'll give you little things to get yourself moving for 10 minutes or something. They have soundscapes. You write down reflections and journal entries and thoughts. And they have a first aid kit which is if you're feeling very anxious or if something happened that upset you or. Or put you in some type of way.

[Ash]

Like you're panicky. Yeah.

[Mike]

Like you can. It can help you just like get through it. Like there's a rant zone. There's grounding exercises.

[Ash]

Oh, I did the rant zone the other day.

[Mike]

Yeah. There's like, what would you say to a loved one? And it's directing compassion inwards towards yourself. Because I can be mean to me. So it was very helpful because sometimes, you know, people can trigger you. Yeah.

[Ash]

And sometimes you're your own worst critic anyway.

[Mike]

Yeah. And it helps you like not take in all the yuckiness on the outside.

[Ash]

Yeah. And it helps you like work through it if. If some leaks through.

[Mike]

Yeah. So, hey, Finch, if you want to.

[Ash]

Sponsor Finch, we're kind of obsessed with you. Pretty good advertising and we forgot to tell you the best part. You get to name your little bird.

[Mike]

Oh, yes. Mine's name is Gatsby.

[Ash]

And mine is Big Ann. Thank you.

[Mike]

So, guys, download it. I just highly recommend it if you're looking for something.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Mike]

To help yourself there. And it. It's been helpful to me. I like it. It's very cute.

[Ash]

It's great.

[Mike]

And it's made me more mindful of things, like certain things. Because I'll look and I'll be like, you haven't read for 10 minutes. When can you schedule that in?

[Ash]

I should put that on mine because I've been not keeping up with my reading lately.

[Mike]

Yeah. And it's really helpful.

[Ash]

Yeah, I love that.

[Mike]

So, Finch, everybody.

[Ash]

Hell, yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. That's my little recommendation for the day.

[Ash]

All right, well, moving on into the case of the day.

[Mike]

The case of the day.

[Ash]

I have an unsolved case today, which really infuriates me because there's kind of no reason that this should be unsolved.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So this is the unsolved murder of Kristin O'Connell. So let's get into it. Kristin Marie O'Connell was born January 12, 1965. She was one of two kids born to Michael and Phyllis O'Connell, who raised her and her brother Kyle in Burnsville, Minnesota. According to Michael O'Connell, his daughter was a really fun, really easygoing, outgoing child. But he said she also had a very serious side. He said she was somewhat religious and had put a lot of thought into becoming a nun.

[Mike]

Oh, wow.

[Ash]

And you can find, like, some evidence of Kristen's faith throughout her early life. When her grandmother, who she was really, really close with, died in 1975, 10 year old Kristen turned to her faith to help her kind of cope with this loss. In a letter written after her grandmother's death, she said, she wrote, death is a subject pushed aside, never talked about. I think it should be talked about. It's a part of life. Some people die fast, others die young, some old. It all depends when God wants us with him.

[Mike]

Wow.

[Ash]

Which is, like, pretty profound for a 10 year old.

[Mike]

It is. And if that, like, it sounds like it was like a comfort.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. Now, while Kristen would always take her faith pretty seriously, she was also in most respects, a pretty typical Midwestern girl and a very ideal daughter for her parents. Her mother, Phyllis, told A reporter In 2023, we had a great relationship, and she was. She was the one all the boys wanted to marry, which I just think is so sweet. Like a lot of girls her age, she had and where she was from. She had a deep love of horses and she worked part time at a stable near Burnsville and she boarded her own horse there.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Ash]

She also was remembered as being a very kind, very open person. She trusted people without reservation. Her Aunt Barb said she was the type of person that wanted to sit and chat about anything and everything going on with her life.

[Mike]

She sounds just cool.

[Ash]

Yeah. She just sounds like a good person. Like someone you Beautiful too. She was gorge. Yeah. And just someone you'd want to be friends with, you know.

[Mike]

She just seems like a cool chick. Yeah. So.

[Ash]

After graduating from high school, Kristen was accepted to the University of Wisconsin Stout, where she majored in hotel and restaurant management, which I feel like that'd be like a pretty fun career.

[Mike]

And also that's really smart.

[Ash]

Really smart.

[Mike]

Because that's not like you. You're really setting yourself up for like a career.

[Ash]

Yeah. And also you have to be like, so organized. Yes. You have to be a level of organization that I don't even think I could ever acquire.

[Mike]

Yeah. I can't even comprehend it. And you also have to be a real people person, like really good with people and have a. A good demeanor, which it sounds like she was kind of perfect for that.

[Ash]

Definitely. She sounds like she was like very bubbly, you know. But in the spring of her sophomore year, she took a vacation to Cap. I think it's Captiva island near Fort Myers, Florida. And she was just celebrating spring break with some of her friends. Very typical.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

While she was there, she met 18 year old James Vermeers Jr. Who was working on the island as a waiter at the time. He had recently graduated high school where he'd grown up in Ovid, New York. And he was planning to go back home to Ovid in a few months. So Kristen and James headed off immediately. And actually, even after Kristen went home to Minnesota at the end of spring break, they were keeping in touch through letters and phone calls. Now, after months of this kind of like long distance relationship of sorts, they weren't boyfriend and girlfriend, but it was. It seemed like it was like kind of heading down that road.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Kristen decided that she wanted to visit James in New York to get to know him better because, you know, they've been like contacting each other through letters and phone. She's like, let's spend some time together.

[Mike]

They're the rank, like going up the steps of the relationship ladder.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. Also remember when people wrote letters?

[Mike]

I know.

[Ash]

Crazy.

[Mike]

That's like. It's so cute.

[Ash]

It is it is like a pen pallish. I know. So since she wanted to get to know him better, she planned a visit for mid August, just a few weeks before she was going to go back to Wisconsin Stout for her junior year. Initially, Kristen's mom, Phyllis, was kind of apprehensive about her daughter visiting a boy that she didn't really know too well. Several states away and unaccompanied.

[Mike]

I get it.

[Ash]

In fact, according to Kristen's brother Kyle, his parents actually were arguing about it for a few days before Kristen actually did leave the dad. Michael eventually convinced his wife that, quote, it was time to let Kristen be a woman and make her own decisions. So Phyllis obviously eventually agreed to let her go, reasoning that Kristen had always been a really responsible girl. She'd always been very trustworthy. So there was really no reason not to let her go other than her own apprehension.

[Mike]

Yeah, of course. Which. What an impossible position.

[Ash]

Yeah. And it's hard. I mean, she's an adult technically.

[Mike]

Well, you want to give her the independence and the freedom to make choices, and you can't tether them to you for the rest of their lives as much as we want to as parents.

[Ash]

Well, and I think as soon as your kids turn, like 17, 18, 19, that's a really hard age I can't even fathom because it's just like uncharted territory for you.

[Mike]

Up until then, you have been able to tether them to you pretty much.

[Ash]

And it's your. Your role. Like, you have to, you know, you.

[Mike]

Get to make the rules. And it's like at that point, you do feel. It's like, it must be this weird feeling of like, well, I have to kind of give them a little freedom, but I don't want to at the same time. Like, I want to just keep them.

[Ash]

And it's like a loss of control. And control is not always a bad thing, you know, it's true. But she was so excited when she left that day. She came in, kissed me and said, mom, don't worry. Everything's fine. It'll be fine. So with her parents consent now, Kristen traveled from Minnesota to Boston, where a family friend picked her up and then drove her to Syracuse, New York, where James Vermeers and one of his friends picked her up.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Ash]

So Kristen arrived in New York on the night of Monday, August 12, and her plan was to stay until that Friday. So not a super long time. Yeah, she was really, really excited about this trip. Super excited to see James, like I said, get to know him better.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But her enthusiasm started to wane almost as soon as she arrived in New York.

[Elena]

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[Ash]

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[Ash]

Initially, James told Kristen that he that she was going to stay at his parents house where he also lived. So like very normal situation there. But when she arrived in Ovid, he told her that the plans had changed unexpectedly and that instead they were going to be staying in a trailer on his parents property.

[Mike]

Nah.

[Ash]

So that would like freak me out a little bit. And I think she definitely, she was.

[Mike]

A little put off by it.

[Ash]

Yeah, I feel like that would make your like flight or fight senses kind of kick in.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You know?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So she was like, okay, like sounds good. And she told her mom. And the change of plans was concerning for Phyllis, who believed her daughter would be staying in a home with adults present. Yeah, but she was like, you're already there and I already told you you could go. I trust you and you know, you're still on their property so you'll be safe.

[Mike]

And again, hard position.

[Ash]

And again, not a lot she can do. Her daughter's technically an adult. So it's unclear how the two spent their day on Tuesday. But by the next day, Kristen reportedly went swimming with James and his friends. And then the group went to a local bar restaurant where they shot a game of pool. On the way back to the trailer, James stopped at a store to buy some sandwiches, get some beers, and then the group of eight went back to James's trailer to hang out. And it was that afternoon that Kristin received a second piece of unwanted and unexpected news. For several months, she and James had been corresponding, like I said, with, you know, phone calls and letters and you know, he had even invited her to come visit him, giving the impression that he had some kind of romantic interest in her, obviously. But According to Michael O'Connell, Kristen's dad, while James was talking with Kristen, he also had been dating a girl in New York.

[Mike]

Oh, so he's an asshole.

[Ash]

Yeah. And he quote, planned to tell Kristen about it when she arrived in Ovid.

[Mike]

So you invited this girl to another state so you could tell her that you're dating someone else.

[Ash]

It's like, why are you allowing her to come to, like, there's obviously nothing's gonna happen between the two of you or like that's how you're making it seem.

[Mike]

That's a dick move and nothing should.

[Ash]

Happen because you have a girlfriend. And obviously Kristin's a very respectable girl. So she's like Fck you. Nothing is gonna happen. But you let her get all the way out there.

[Mike]

No, that makes literally no sense that you have her travel to another state so you can tell her that you have a girlfriend.

[Ash]

And two, she went from Minnesota to Boston and then from Boston to New York. Like this was.

[Mike]

And bitch could have told her in a letter.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Like, what's wrong?

[Ash]

Or a phone call.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

This was so much effort put into this trip for you to just kind of like, that feels like her there. Yeah.

[Mike]

That feels like an exercise in humiliation is what it feels like. And I'm angry.

[Ash]

It does. It's just shitty.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So it appears that James did finally tell Kristen about his straight up girlfriend at some point on the afternoon or the evening of Tuesday, August 14, after they got back to the trailer.

[Mike]

Also, how'd your girlfriend feel about that? That you invited a girl two states, like, states away.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Mike]

To come see you, who you've been corresponding with. Like, I'm sorry, that's weird as it is weird.

[Ash]

And also, like, like, were you telling your girlfriend, are your friends gonna say something to her? Like, what is going on here? It's a very strange situation. So upon learning about James's relationship, Kristen called her mom in Minnesota and told her the trip really wasn't going as well as she hoped it was. Hoped it would. And she was going to cut it short and actually come home the next day.

[Mike]

Oh, I just want her. Like, everything in my soul is like, I just want you to come home.

[Ash]

Yeah, same. So according to Phyllis, Kristen, quote, sounded upset but wouldn't say if anything was wrong. She was just like, she was upset and she wanted.

[Mike]

Phyllis was probably wanting to just like reach over and grab her.

[Ash]

And it sounds like, you know, like it could have been very much the, like, you know, like she's having a hard time because she's an adult and she can't stop her from going. But you wonder if she had some kind of maternal instinct there and then like everybody else made her second guess that kind of thing.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You know, or. And she, you know, even she might have just second guessed it.

[Mike]

Yeah. Because you're taught to be like, let them do what they want. It's like, no, sometimes in this world you can't just. Yeah. You have to trust sometimes, you know, like the world just tells people like this, like, oh, you're just being crazy.

[Ash]

You're just being overprotective.

[Mike]

Being overprotective. And it's like, no, she was. She's.

[Ash]

Sometimes you just know.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So the group Continued hanging out until late into the evening. Remember they're all hanging out at James's trailer. And around 11pm James said he was going to go pick up a pizza and he left. And Kristen announced to the rest of the group that she was going to go out for a walk like shortly after he left. According to 17 year old David Chamberlain, who was at the trailer that night, neither Kristen nor James seemed upset. There was no fights or arguments that broke out at the party. He said she just went out for a walk and didn't come back. When she left, nobody figured anything was wrong. So back home in Burnsville, Kristen actually often took late night walks by herself. Her and her, her family lived on a subdivision so it was like a little safer go for a late night walk. So she mostly, most likely didn't think twice about going for a walk to clear her head out here. But when Kristen still hadn't returned after two hours, the group at the party started to get concerned. So they set out on foot to look around the area for her. And when she still hadn't been found by the following afternoon, James called the state police to report her missing.

[Mike]

I'm sorry, what?

[Ash]

So she goes out for a walk at, around like a little after 11:00pm she doesn't return by 1:00am they go out and look for her and they don't find her. And then presumably everybody just goes to sleep and wakes up the next afternoon and then calls the police. That's weird.

[Mike]

That is weird.

[Ash]

That's weird. I'm sorry, I'm not, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone.

[Mike]

Pointing fingers at. I'm just weird objectively. That's weird.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like if my, if I'm at a party and it's not even like my friend, it's just like somebody at the party and I hear that they're missing and we go look for them and don't find them. When we don't find them, that's when we call the police.

[Mike]

Yeah, we say okay, we gotta call the cops now because everything's awry and.

[Ash]

There was plenty of people there that like at least one of them should have been like hey, I think we should call the police. And followed through with the opposition for sure. Weird.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So after receiving the very late report that Kristen O'Connell had gone missing, a search team of about 90 police officers and firefighters from four towns set out from the Vermeers house to look for Kristen. About 90 minutes later, the team found Kristen's body. She was not alive. They found her body about 300 yards into a cornfield along Route 139, which is a rural road about a quarter mile from the trailer where she'd last been seen. Ovid fire chief Robert favreau said, I know that's what you go on searches to find, but this is an awful way to end it. Usually when you go out on these things, you find out the person you're looking for is hundreds of miles away, but you never know till you find it.

[Mike]

Oh, that's awful.

[Ash]

Yeah. When she was discovered, Kristen was fully nude. Her throat had been slashed, and she had also been stabbed several times in the chest.

[Mike]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Yeah. The scene had the hallmarks of a sexual assault, but it would quickly be be determined that she had not been raped.

[Mike]

Oh, wow.

[Ash]

Major Richard tonsi told reporters the apparent intentions may have been a sexual attack, but it may not have taken place, eventually ending instead with murder a few days later. The medical examiner would label Kristen's death obviously a murder, a homicide. And there was evidence that she had, quote, put up a tremendous fight for her life. And it was also determined that at this. At that time, she had no drugs and no alcohol in her system, so she was fully sober. A cursory search of the scene didn't really turn up as much as far as evidence. And there was no sign of a murder weapon anywhere in the area. Investigators took soil samples, blood samples, and what little physical evidence they could find and sent it to a state lab in Binghamton for. Binghamton for testing. In the meantime, the press and public became very concerned that there was now a killer amongst them.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

A few months earlier, in May, convicted murderers Hugh colum and Bernard Welch had escaped from a Chicago correctional facility and were believed to have fled to the northeast. So that was very concerning for people. They were like, oh, did these two.

[Mike]

Have something to do with it?

[Ash]

Welch was arrested in Philadelphia in early August. But at the time of Kristen's murder, Colomb was still on the loose. And Tanzi told reporters, we've got an idea that the murderer could have been in the area and we've got a murder. But he clearly stated that Colomb was not a suspect, which is interesting.

[Mike]

That is interesting.

[Ash]

A few months later, they actually did arrest Colomb after he robbed a bank in Mississippi. So he was definitively ruled out as a suspect at that point. So after Kristen's body was removed from the field and all the evidence was gathered, Tanzi and the other state police investigators started interviewing witnesses and just conducting, like, door to door canvases. Basically, everybody at the Party was quickly ruled out as a suspect. Tanzi told reporters everybody at that party came from well to do families in this community. They are respected in this area.

[Mike]

Okay, good to know.

[Ash]

While being from a wealthy family is hardly evidence of innocence, because as we know, wealthy people kill people too. And people from wealthy families kill people too. Quite frequently, actually. The group had been together all evening and with the exception of James going out for pizza shortly before Kristen left on the walk, none of them had left the trailer other than to go look for her.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Ash]

And the medical examiner did place the time of death somewhere between midnight and 1:30am and that was after James had already gotten back to the party. Okay, so.

[Mike]

So there's that. Yeah.

[Ash]

And this time of death is. Was also supported by what neighbors described as a quote, unquote horrific scream heard in the direction of the cornfield between 12:15 and 12:30am now here's my.

[Mike]

Call the police.

[Ash]

It doesn't sound like it.

[Mike]

Call the police when you hear a blood curdling scream in a cornfield. Okay, well, do that for me.

[Ash]

If neighbors of this family heard the.

[Mike]

Scream, why didn't the group.

[Ash]

Why didn't the group on the. In the trailer Valid that.

[Mike]

Valid question.

[Ash]

Any sense to me.

[Mike]

Yeah. Or valid question.

[Ash]

Did they hear the scream? And then that's when they went out looking. But also she was found not too far from the property.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And they all went out looking for her for hours. It's just weird.

[Mike]

It's just very interesting.

[Ash]

They got ruled out as suspects, but.

[Mike]

But there's just still some, like, lingering questions.

[Ash]

Yeah. And it also happened quickly, in my opinion.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So even though they had been ruled out as suspects in her murder, it remains unclear why Kristen left the party near midnight to go for a walk in an area very unfamiliar to her.

[Mike]

Well, that's. I think that's the thing. It's like we're not pointing fingers at anyone. It's just like there's some unanswered questions that it doesn't seem like had enough attention.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mike]

That could be missing pieces to a puzzle that may not include them being part of it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Mike]

It's just like, why weren't all the pieces put together?

[Ash]

Yeah. And also just like in retrospect, don't let somebody go for a walk alone when they're not familiar with this area.

[Mike]

Yeah, that's. I'm not understanding.

[Ash]

It's just sad that she didn't have a friend here. Yeah.

[Mike]

Like that makes me sad.

[Ash]

And the one person who was supposed to be her Friend had of turn this trip into shitty, frankly, very shitty for her. But state police investigator Jeffrey Arnold said in 2009 she did not do drugs and was not a drinker. She may have been uncomfortable at the party because alcohol was involved and decided to take a walk.

[Mike]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Ash]

Others suggested that, you know, Kristen was probably upset that James had just told her about his girlfriend, and she maybe wanted to go clear her head. And then other people say, you know, maybe she just wanted to get some air. She didn't plan to be gone long. And also, she was barefoot when she left the party, which suggests that she didn't plan to be gone for very long.

[Mike]

Yeah, if she was barefoot, she was not planning on being gone long. That was a quick little.

[Ash]

Little stroll. Yeah.

[Mike]

Wow.

[Ash]

Interesting, right?

[Mike]

Very interesting.

[Ash]

So whatever her reason for leaving the party, investigators soon learned that Kristen might not have been alone for the duration of her walk. Despite being a rural route, Route 139 was commonly used by locals as a shortcut across town. And it also tended to be busy with traffic going to the Seneca Army Depot and the Golden Buck, which is a popular restaurant and bar in Ovid. Sergeant Thomas Warren said, a couple of passing motorists have told us they saw people in two cars talking to Kristen along the road at about 11:45pm Other witnesses reported seeing a late 70s greener blue sedan on Route 139, right around the time of the murder, with one or possibly two male occupants. And some of the witnesses told police they believed the occupants may have been trying to lure Kristen into the car.

[Mike]

Oh, no. I mean, I. That's scary that she's just walking by herself in the dark.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Barefoot.

[Ash]

Yup. Like that's in an unknown area.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Several witnesses reported seeing the car with two men inside. But others told investigators they saw, quote, two young white males walking behind O'Connell shortly before police believe she was killed.

[Mike]

Oh, that's so scary.

[Ash]

So there might have been two people in that car. And then later, people said they saw two people walking behind her.

[Mike]

Oh, that's really scary.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

In the early hours of December 4, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of midtown Manhattan.

[Mike]

This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him.

[Jesse]

We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect, he has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione, became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history.

[Mike]

I was targeted, premeditated, and meant to sow terror.

[Jesse]

I'm Jesse Weber. Host of Luigi produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This. This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever.

[Ash]

He's awoken the people to a true issue.

[Mike]

Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system.

[Jesse]

Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery on the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple podcast guests. In the early hours of December 4, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of midtown Manhattan.

[Mike]

This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him.

[Jesse]

We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect he has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history.

[Mike]

I was targeted, premeditated. Admit to sow terror.

[Jesse]

I'm Jesse Weber. Host of Luigi produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever.

[Ash]

He's awoken the people to a true issue.

[Mike]

Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system.

[Jesse]

Listen to law and crimes Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery plus on the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple podcasts.

[Ash]

The two individuals were described as being young, slender, with shoulder length hair, wearing blue jeans and one was wearing a jean jacket. One was described as being around 6ft tall, so very tall. And the other was shorter than that person.

[Mike]

And you have to remember, like, again, the stuff at the party is very strange and some of it is questionable. But you look at this and you say, look at the Alison Botha story. And it's like these. Yeah. Two people might have. Things can happen at random that tonight they were gonna do this. Like, you know what I mean? Like, if I've learned nothing from that, I've learned that, yeah, they can just decide to. Yeah.

[Ash]

And we know, I mean, serial killers pick victims at random. And one, I don't want to say, like opportunity strikes.

[Mike]

No, it's true. They're opportunistic.

[Ash]

They are opportunistic.

[Mike]

When they see an opportunity that they feel like they can get the upper hand in, they will take that opportunity. So it does.

[Ash]

And this was very much, unfortunately, a situation where two males would absolutely have the upper hand over.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Ash]

A young girl who's smaller than them, barefoot. Barefoot. And doesn't know her way around in the dark and who Knows they may have stopped her, struck up a conversation, found out that she wasn't from around here, and that makes it ten times more.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You know, opportunity, opportunistic.

[Mike]

Her mother also said that she was very trusting and very. And liked to chat with people.

[Ash]

Yeah. Disarming.

[Mike]

She was very disarmed and very, like, would kind of let stuff out like that because she believed the best in people.

[Ash]

And she may have even, you know, like, said something about the fact that this wasn't a great night. It wasn't going well.

[Mike]

Yeah. Like, I'm. I want to. I'm going home.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like, she's at a party where she doesn't know a lot of people.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, who knows what was said?

[Mike]

Who knows? That's the thing. So it's like, we can look at the party goers and the party situation as, like. Yeah, there's some unanswered questions there, but, like, this is also a very distinct possibility that somebody did take that opportunity.

[Ash]

Absolutely.

[Mike]

So sad.

[Ash]

That's also the unfortunate part of this case is there's just so many variables at play.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That there was.

[Mike]

It's hard to.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Pin it all together.

[Ash]

Right. And these two people are still unknown. So it's like.

[Mike]

Yeah. You know. Oh, God.

[Ash]

Yeah. The investigation was tough, but based on the information learned from witnesses, investigators did start putting together a theory of what could have happened. After leaving the party at James's trailer, Kristen walked about a quarter mile down Route 139 when she was approached by those two men in the sedan who pulled over to talk to her. After that interaction, she was seen continuing her walk in a western direction around 12:10am but the next witness to see her around 12:15am reported her walking in the opposite direction, indicating that she was heading back to the party.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Ash]

Investigators theorize that the driver may have gone a short distance down the road, but turned around at an abandoned gas station and went back in Kristen's direction. And they believe she either saw the cur. The car turn around or just sense that something wasn't right. So then she turned around and started heading back to the party.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Ash]

So that makes you so sad because that makes you realize that, like, she was probably in fear at that moment.

[Mike]

Yeah. You know? Absolutely.

[Ash]

And when she started turning in the direction of the party, they believe that the men in the car started pursuing her on foot at that point. Yeah.

[Mike]

That's so up.

[Ash]

It is really up. In fact, one witness, like I said, reported seeing those two young men walking about 50 yards behind her around 12:15am around 1:15am so an hour later, witnesses reported seeing two young men who matched earlier descriptions walking eastward away from the cornfield toward the center of town.

[Mike]

Oh, this sounds scary.

[Ash]

The two suspects were seen again 15 minutes later, this time walking in the opposite direction back toward the cornfield. And that was the last time either suspect was seen.

[Mike]

What the.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And the fact that there's, like, a cornfield involved in this just makes it even scarier.

[Ash]

Yeah. Because, I mean, this is a. Think of upstate New York.

[Mike]

Yeah. And this is like, I don't know why cornfield's just free. I mean, I know why popular culture has made me fear cornfields.

[Ash]

But, I mean, yeah, it's a.

[Mike]

It just gives it, like, a way more chilling.

[Ash]

There's a lot of thing. There's a lot of opportunity for cover.

[Mike]

Conceal. Yeah, concealment.

[Ash]

Exactly. And Ovid New York, just like, so people know, is, like, super upstate New York, really rural. It's not very far from Canada.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I'm looking at it right now, and I'm like, damn.

[Ash]

Like, my. Yeah, yeah. Like, I have family that lives in upstate New York, and they don't even live as upstate as this. And that felt rural to me when I would visit.

[Mike]

And it's very, like, small town.

[Ash]

Super small town. I mean, we're literally just talked about an abandoned gas station a second ago. You know, like, that's the vibe here.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Ash]

So the initial flood of tips and witness statements was very useful, actually, this time in establishing a timeline and developing a theory as to what might have happened. But it did little to point investigators in the direction of a viable suspect. In fact, within a week of the murder, investigators had yet to find anybody who even remotely matched the suspects seen talking to Kristen before the murder. And, of course, that contributed to the growing sense of fear in the community.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because people are like, oh, there's two suspects here, but no. Like, they're incognito. No. Are they among us? Do they live here? Are they from here?

[Mike]

Who are these people?

[Ash]

Right. And it wasn't Kristen's death alone that made county residents uneasy, but the fact that Kristen's murder was the fourth unsolved murder in Seneca county in a little. A little over a year. Wow. Yeah. Chief Ferdinand Ningandry. I hope I said that right. Told reporters I don't remember it ever happening here before in my 28 years as a police officer. And then suddenly, they had four unsolved murders.

[Mike]

Damn.

[Ash]

Yeah. So homicides in that part of New York were very rare, actually. And the fact that there was no common link between the ones that had taken place was equally troubling because it suggested that these were random crimes. Yeah, and like we just said, crimes of opportunity. The growing fear in the community and the lack of progress in all of these unsolved cases prompted several community meetings and the form the formation of a neighborhood watch program. So at least people got together and were taking care of one another.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But after a frustrating week of little progress in the case, the state police finally did catch a break on August 23rd when an anonymous person called with an unexpected tip. The caller said, I'm getting out of town because I told him not to do it. I told him not to do it. You look at behind the Chevy, the green Chevy on Main street in Waterloo, and you'll find him. And if you open the trunk, if you open the trunk, you'll find what you want.

[Mike]

What?

[Ash]

The chilling.

[Mike]

What?

[Ash]

The chilling? Yeah. The officer who answered the call, Trooper D.C. ryer, tried to keep the caller on the line by engaging him in conversation, but the voice on the other end just simply repeated himself, insisting they would, quote, find what you need to solve the case if they looked in the trunk. And then he repeated his earlier insistence, saying, I'm getting out of town because I told him not to do it. I told him not to do it. I'm heading out of town, before hanging up.

[Mike]

What the.

[Ash]

Which does one feels like this could be the two suspects and one is like freaking the out, or this could also just be a hoax. We know people do this.

[Mike]

We know people love to do that. So.

[Ash]

And now it's, you know, gotten kind of known community wide that they are looking for two suspects, so who knows? But given that several witnesses had described seeing the dark colored sedan on Route 139 on the night of the murder, it seemed likely that the call was not some kind of hoax and that the voice on the other end did belong to one of the killers. The problem, however, was that while investigators knew about the unknown suspect's car, there was also countless dark sedans in this county. And even narrowing it down to a green Chevy sedan was little help, of course. So with little to go on and no new evidence forthcoming, investigators turned to the public for help, and they placed an ad on the front page of the local newspaper. The ad said, our concerns are what have been seen either Wednesday or Thursday, August 14th or 15th, during the night, the day or night. And the ad urged Seneca county residents to come forward if they'd seen, among other things, anyone hitchhiking or had picked up any hitchhikers, saw any strangers or suspicious individuals in the area, or if they, quote, saw any cars that aroused their curiosity.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Ash]

So. Aware that such an advertisement was unusual, State police investigator Thomas Warren was upfront with locals about the frustrating nature of this case. He said, we're at the point where we need answers to those questions for the case to move forward. The fact that she was not from this area and had little contact with the people around here makes this a difficult case.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And it does.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

His comments might have been frustrating and probably sounded like defeatist to some, but he wasn't wrong about the difficulty of this case. Unfortunately, she'd only been in town for a couple of days, and she had never been there before. And the only people she knew in this area were all in the same room at James's trailer on the night of the murder.

[Mike]

Damn.

[Ash]

That meant whoever had killed her was a stranger to her. And strangers are obviously among the more notoriously difficult types of murders to solve.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Ash]

Because there's no connection. No connection, no social ties, Nothing to trace victim to killer.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So equally problematic was the lack of evidence found at the scene. Like I said, there was no murder weapon, and there wasn't really any forensic evidence that could point them to a suspect. All they had at that point were some blood and soil samples, and they did have some skin cells discovered on Kristen's body.

[Mike]

Oh, okay.

[Ash]

But DNA testing was still several years in the future. We didn't have that yet.

[Mike]

Where's that DNA now? We'll get there. Okay.

[Ash]

We'll get there, and we'll get frustrated as a group.

[Mike]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

Yeah. So at this. At that point in the. At this point in the investigation that I'm talking about now, those samples weren't likely to be of much use for a long, long time.

[Mike]

Yeah, of course.

[Ash]

So at the end of August, Major Richard Tanzi told reporters, we've had between 220 and 230 leads of various types, and I've assigned several investigators to the case, but we have no one we term a suspect at this point.

[Mike]

That's awful.

[Ash]

That many leads and no suspect. It's unclear whether local police were confident or even hopeful that they'd eventually find the killer. But what is evident from the statements made in late August and early September is that without any new information, the case was in danger of going cold.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In the few months after Kristen's murder, investigators struggle to make anything resembling progress, much to the disappointment of the public and to Kristen's family.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Fire Chief Robert Favreau said, people are pretty upset about this murder. It's changed their lifestyle to being more security conscious. And he was among the handful of locals who worked to establish a five thousand dollar reward for information leading to the arrest of Kristen's killer, which they hoped would spur the investigation back into high gear. But it didn't do much. He said maybe this reward will prompt someone who for whatever reason has not come forth with vital information to do so. But like I said, the reward would go unclaimed. Leads just kept drying up and the case got colder and colder. So now, desperate for information, investigators took to local television stations in upstate New York to urge residents to come forward if they knew anything that could lead to an arrest. They even went as as far as filming a reenactment of the murder, which aired on Crime Stoppers.

[Mike]

Wow.

[Ash]

It was a long time ago, Warren. Yeah, different time. Warren said that got some calls, but nothing significant. There's been no breakthrough and again, no weapon found yet. So within six weeks now of Kristen's murder, the story had slipped from the front pages of the papers, as we've heard so many times before. Disappeared from locals minds. The front of locals minds at least. But an article in the Democrat and Chronicle reported in late September, it's been less than six weeks since Kristen O'Connell's nude body was found in a nearby cornfield. But Ovid, people don't talk much about it anymore.

[Mike]

Wow. That's wild.

[Ash]

Sad. And it just like it really speaks to the state of the world at all times.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That in six weeks you can forget about a teenager being found in a cornfield, murdered in the nude.

[Mike]

Yeah. Like, like you're just on to the next thing. It's always. Society has always been that way. Yeah, Always been that way.

[Ash]

It's sad, but it really is. I think everybody gets swept up in it.

[Mike]

Well, and it's gotten much worse now. What's got, like social media and the Internet.

[Ash]

Because there's just always something new, the.

[Mike]

Attention span to these kind of things. It's blinking. You miss it. Yeah.

[Ash]

It's so true. But the desire to move on for the murder was obviously deeply frustrating for those who were involved in the case. Heavily, like Robert Favreau, he said, I can't understand how people could forget so quickly. To me there are so many questions. Someone out there is a person who committed murder. Who is it? Why? Where are they?

[Mike]

Yeah. And it was a brutal murder.

[Ash]

Brutal. Her throat was slashed and she'd been stabbed multiple times. And she was Nude, stripped. At some point, you know. But for many of the residents of Ovid and the surrounding towns, Kristen's murder aroused serious fears that they would much rather not have to confront want. So I think that's why people just push that to the back of their mind.

[Mike]

A nice pattern of avoidance.

[Ash]

Yep. Local resident Bonnie Palmer told a reporter, there's an awful lot of people here that are still scared. It's something that's very ugly and you want to forget it. So you put it in the back of your mind and you don't talk about it.

[Mike]

Yeah, that's human nature.

[Ash]

It is. So while the public had begun moving on from the murder, investigators with the New York State Police continued to follow up on every tip they received. In early 1986, Richard Tanzi and one of his fellow investigators actually got approval to travel out of state and re interview some of the early witnesses after they got a new lead, that new information may have come to light. Tanzi was very hopeful that this could have been their best lead yet. But that lead and the supposed new information ultimately led nowhere. And he found himself right back to where they were in August 1985.

[Mike]

I hate this.

[Ash]

I know.

[Brian]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Mike Corey, and like you, I'm drawn to true crime, creepy history, and all things spooky. If you particularly enjoyed Ash and Elena's coverage of the USS Indianapolis, where 900 sailors battled rough seas, sharks, dehydration, and madness in the open ocean, you need to check out my podcast, against the Odds. We dive deep into this survival story across four full episodes, revealing details you haven't heard yet. Each week on against the Odds, we put you in the shoes of real survivors. From the Thai cave rescue to Somali pirate hostages to the Donner Party, these aren't just headlines. They're incredible stories of human endurance. Follow against the Odds on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Wondery subscribers can listen to both against the Odds and morbid, early and ad free. Start your free trial in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify today.

[Ash]

After six months of investigation, police became decidedly less optimistic in their prospects of catching the killer. Senior investigator Robert Fanor said In February of 1986, we've got very, very little to go on. The physical evidence is almost nothing. We've got no fingerprints, no suspects, no identification, no leads and no witnesses.

[Mike]

Damn.

[Ash]

By that point, investigators had traveled to six different states to interview potential witnesses and review similar cases even. But after doing so, they were still no closer to cracking the case.

[Mike]

This is brutal.

[Ash]

And it really isn't a lack of effort, it seems.

[Mike]

Yeah, it seems like they were really trying.

[Ash]

Right. In the months and now years that followed Kristen's death, the investigation lost steam, of course. But throughout that period, her parents, phyllis and Michael O'Connell, kept their own investigation going of their daughter's murder in hopes of finding the killer.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Almost immediately upon learning of Kristen's death, they hired a private investigator. But the result of that investigator's report has not been made public. In August of 1986, a year after Kristen's murder, Phyllis and Michael actually traveled to Ovid in the hope that their presence might inspire somebody to come forward. On a visit to the crime scene, Phyllis told a reporter, you always hope that you can see something nobody else has noticed. Of course, I can't imagine being, like, in that position.

[Mike]

They must have been so frustrated, and.

[Ash]

I'll still be so frustrated and just, like, desperate. Yeah, anything. To the Oconnells, the lack of progress in the case was unfathomable, which, obviously, Michael said, it might not have been a person who lives in Ovid, but someone who lives 20 or even 100 miles away, but knew the area around here. It's just very hard for us to grasp the concept of this being a random thing.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Of course, investigators did acknowledge that it was possible that Kristen was the victim of a serial killer, and they insisted that they were checking similar crimes reported around the country. But still, they weren't getting anything.

[Mike]

Jesus.

[Ash]

Really? I know. So the following August 1987, the O'Connells were back in Ovid on the second anniversary now of Kristen's murder. And this time, they were in the company of two psychics that they hired back home in Burnsville.

[Mike]

I don't blame him.

[Ash]

I don't either, at that. Two years of unanswered questions. I would be going to psychics myself. Michael told a reporter, the information they have supplied us with thus far has provided a couple of very strong leads, and we hope this will be resolved in a short period of time.

[Mike]

Oh, man, the hope.

[Ash]

I know the psychics agreed with Michael O'Connell's sentiment, though one of them said, the feelings and psychic impressions in this area are as strong as they were two years ago. My impression is that there are people who have substantial knowledge of this murder. I mean, I don't think that, you.

[Mike]

Know how I feel about psychics at crime scenes. I think that's a little. Well, I could also say that that's the thing. Yeah. It's like, okay, that wasn't I don't.

[Ash]

Know if that was a prediction so much as a commentary as just something.

[Mike]

That is common knowledge. Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

But the psychics who came to ovid with the O'Connells may have given them hope that their daughter's murder would be solved. But as we know, we're here today talking about it. Years passed without an arrest or even a suspect. And this is awful. In 1993, tragedy struck again when Michael O'Connell died unexpectedly at the age of 51.

[Mike]

Oh, super young.

[Ash]

Super young. He never obviously learned who was responsible for his daughter's death.

[Mike]

Damn.

[Ash]

Yeah. So now, for years, Kristen OConnell's case was shelved as investigators shifted their attention to new and more pressing matters. But then, in early 1996, a hair sample found on Kristen's body led investigators to a man named Gary Harris.

[Mike]

Oh.

[Ash]

He was a former Ovid resident who was 15 at the time of the murder.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Ash]

According to Seneca County District Attorney Donna Cathy, Harris was, quote, seen in the area where O'Connell was staying on the night of her murder.

[Mike]

Huh.

[Ash]

At the time of the murder, the hairs were only identifiable as belonging to a black male. But Harris came to the attention of investigators after he was arrested for an armed robbery in New York in 1996.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Ash]

Unfortunately, though, a month after announcing Harris as a suspect, the lab results came back as inconclusive on the hair sample, and investigators were forced to rule Harris out as a suspect. Although nearly 15 years would pass before the O'Connell case was back in the news, the testing of the hair sample in 1996 was a strong indication that forensic evidence could very well be the thing that solved Kristen's murder.

[Mike]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

And I still believe it could be.

[Mike]

Oh, man.

[Ash]

By the time the case was back in the headlines, 25 years had passed. And in that time, like we know, scientific and techno, technological advances had made it possible to solve cold cases with the evidence that had just been sitting on shelves for decades at that point. I've seen it happen so many times. Look at the Golden State killer.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In Kristen's case, like I said, blood samples and skin fragments had been collected from her body. That could lead to her killer. But as it turned out, things wouldn't be quite as easy as submitting the samples for DNA testing.

[Mike]

Why?

[Ash]

In August 2009, New York State Police had received approval of funds for up to $40,000 in order to hire a Dutch forensic lab known for their pioneering work in touch DNA.

[Mike]

Let's go.

[Ash]

And that's a type of analysis that can identify an Individual from a like smallest sample. But the problem was that the New York State Health Department refused to allow investigators to contract with the Amsterdam based company because they weren't certified in New York.

[Mike]

Come on.

[Ash]

In his statement to the press, District attorney Richard Swinehart told reporters, we feel this is our last best effort to solve this case. We are very frustrated with the bureaucracy of the Department of Health and that they won't take a world leading lab where the lab people have testified in other states in our country as experts on homicide cases and won't let them at least examine the evidence while they're being certified.

[Mike]

Yeah, that's New York. Get it together.

[Ash]

That's.

[Mike]

Get it weird together.

[Ash]

That's suspicious.

[Mike]

That's real suspicious.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Why? The. Why?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Are you kidding me?

[Ash]

That doesn't make any sense.

[Mike]

That's infuriating.

[Ash]

It doesn't make any sense. Kristen's family was equally frustrated with the state's decision to deny the testing until the lab applied for and received certification in New York. Kristen's brother, Kyle O'Connor said, They're railroading for their own purposes. There could be no other reason. Yeah.

[Mike]

Why the. Would you stop that?

[Ash]

And he said there, and this is a quote from him, they're covering something up. They haven't come up with a good viable reason why this should not be allowed.

[Mike]

And it's wild to me that they're like, you know, you look shady. So if they're. If you're not covering something up, guess what, you look like you're covering something.

[Ash]

You look shady.

[Mike]

So it's like you should probably move this forward so that you can stop everybody from thinking you did something for up.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mike]

Because right now I think you did something up.

[Ash]

Well, the family was again disappointed in 2010 when they learned that a forensic scientist who had been named in an evidence falsification case possibly handled evidence in Kristen's case shut possibly up. This scientist is said to have falsified data in multiple cases and then went on to falsify records to cover up that fake data.

[Mike]

I am speechless.

[Ash]

Which, like I'm.

[Mike]

Why? Like why?

[Ash]

Why you are with people's lives. Like just do your job. Phyllis said, I mean, my God, this is an important job they're doing and how could they allow this and not be supervised properly? It's just beyond me. Yeah. But what I will tell you is that there's a petition we are going to share on socials and in the show notes and it surrounds all of the DNA testing and Kristen case and it goes into more detail about the issues that the family has faced trying to get the DNA tested.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Ash]

And importantly, most importantly, is asking the New York state health commissioner to approve that lab.

[Mike]

Let's go.

[Ash]

I'm gonna share it. And we are all gonna sign this.

[Mike]

Honestly, everyone annoy the out of them until they do this. Because, like, what are you doing?

[Ash]

Come on.

[Mike]

Like, come on. This literal DNA. Like, what are you doing? And it's degrading the more it sits.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Mike]

And it's like you just waiting for it to degrade.

[Ash]

That's it. Well, that's exactly. But also, this specific lab, like, they're pioneers in this. They are exactly. Like, they know what they're doing with this. So it's weird that you're not allowing.

[Mike]

Them to even look at it while they're getting in. Like, come on.

[Ash]

Not even really giving a valid reason. No, it's shady.

[Mike]

And if you don't want to look.

[Ash]

Shady, let them test.

[Mike]

Yeah. If you don't want to look shady, then let them do it.

[Ash]

Despite the best efforts of the O'Connell family, though, investigators even, and several high profile politicians. Actually, it appears that the skin fragments discovered on Kristen's body still have not been submitted for.

[Mike]

That's shameful. As. Yeah, that is shameful.

[Ash]

Many, many, like, even politicians have been calling on the New York state health department being like, just allow this. Just sign off on it.

[Mike]

Can't let up on that.

[Ash]

Yeah, can't let up. But now, 40 years after her daughter's death, Phyllis O'Connell worries that her daughter's case will never be solved because of this.

[Mike]

Can't let that happen.

[Ash]

And soon, she worries that there will be nobody left to advocate for Kristen in 2023. She said, I promised Kristen till the day I die, I will be after who killed her. And after four decades, her message remains the same as it did the day she learned her daughter was murdered. She said, don't keep secrets. Don't keep something like this going, because maybe the next person might be your daughter. And you will know the kind of pain it is to lose a daughter, and especially through murder.

[Mike]

Oh, that just, like, destroys my soul.

[Ash]

Everyone go sign that petition. I'm gonna. We're gonna put it in the show notes, and we'll share it on socials as well. It's a long link, so if I read it here, it's just. It'll get lost.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So I'll put it in socials and again on the show notes.

[Mike]

Yep. So it'll be right at the bottom of this Episode in the show notes, you'll be able to see it and link. There'll be a link.

[Ash]

Well, literally, like you can click.

[Mike]

Yeah. So you can click it. And then also, again, like Ash said in the socials, we'll do it because.

[Ash]

We'Re showing that shit everywhere.

[Mike]

I want this. I want them to have to move on this.

[Ash]

I want them to have to move on this. And I want Phyllis at least to.

[Mike]

Be able to see the movement.

[Ash]

Right. And not have to live every day worrying that, like, she's going to pass away someday without knowing what happened to.

[Mike]

Her and that she's going to. That this DNA is sitting there.

[Ash]

Right.

[Mike]

That must be the most frustrating thing in the entire world.

[Ash]

The DNA is sitting there and the lab is sitting there. Who has the technology and to at.

[Mike]

Least try to do this. Right.

[Ash]

Right.

[Mike]

Just give it a shot. What the are we doing? Stopping murders from being solved through red tape. That.

[Ash]

Yeah. It shouldn't even be a thing. That it shouldn't be a thing. So definitely sign that. Yeah. Petition. And also anybody with information about this case, because somebody out there knows something. Somebody saw something. Somebody knows something. Somebody.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. Any information. Anybody with any information is asked to contact the New York State Police. And that number is 585398. 4125 again, 585-398-4125.

[Mike]

Damn.

[Ash]

I want this case to be solved.

[Mike]

I want them to submit that DNA. I want that to at least be put into motion.

[Ash]

Yeah. It's got.

[Mike]

Nobody's saying that it's like that. 100% it's going to work. But why the not try?

[Ash]

Why not try? Why not try? And like, hey, politicians and everybody and whoever's like, red taping this, if you're listening, her dad died without knowing what happened to her. Her mom shouldn't have to die without knowing what happened to her daughter.

[Mike]

And what if this was your kid.

[Ash]

Like her mom said? What if this.

[Mike]

Would you want that DNA sitting on a shelf? And just because of red tape and bureaucracy.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Mike]

It doesn't get submitted to a pioneering lab that could potentially give you the answers you need. Come. Would you be fine with that? Because you'd be like, well, is that what you would do? No. Like, no, you. Come on. If it was for you, you'd be slicing through that red tape.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Mike]

Because it's not yours. You're. You don't give a.

[Ash]

But put yourself in somebody else's shoes. Empathy, people.

[Mike]

So frustrating.

[Ash]

I know. It really is. I really. I hope that we get News soon.

[Mike]

I just want this to move forward.

[Ash]

It's gotta. It's gotta.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

40 years and her family has no answers.

[Mike]

Like, come on.

[Ash]

Like, her parents lost a child, her brother lost a sister.

[Mike]

Yeah, come on, let's go.

[Ash]

And somebody's just out there walking around.

[Mike]

Let's go.

[Ash]

Who did it? Let's go.

[Mike]

Let's get this moving. So you guys are powerful. You are so.

[Ash]

By the way. Yeah. You are powerful. Go sign this petition, everybody.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because we asked if you were able to. To share and donate to the Alison Botha fundraiser.

[Mike]

You guys, she blew.

[Ash]

Surpassed her goal.

[Mike]

Yeah, you blew it up.

[Ash]

You blew it up.

[Mike]

You were powerful as fuck.

[Ash]

We can get this shit to you.

[Mike]

Get moving and you get done.

[Ash]

One thing.

[Mike]

Seen you do it before.

[Ash]

One thing about morbid listeners, they get done.

[Mike]

So we know you guys can do this. You're badass and you give a. So do it.

[Ash]

Exactly. And with that being said, we hope that you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. Keep it so weird that you sign the out of this petition and you get everyone in your goddamn life to sign that too. Let's go sign it.

[Mike]

Bye. Foreign.

[Ash]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey. Hey, weirdos. If you guys know one thing about us, it's that we love a deep dive. Well, if you're looking for a limited series that will completely consume you, we've got you covered. Those sketchy texts you're always getting, sometimes there's something way darker behind them. Imagine helping your brother land a dream job abroad, only to discover you've trapped him in a nightmare. We're talking armed guards with shoot to kill orders and thousands forced to scam others just to stay alive. Wondery's new podcast, Scam Factory, follows one family's desperate fight to save their brother from a multi billion dollar criminal empire where the only way out is to become part of the scheme that trapped you. Are you looking for a wild story that'll keep you up at night? Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.