Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)

Summary

Morbid Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)

Release Date: April 7, 2025
Length: 55 minutes

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Introduction

In Episode 661 of Morbid, hosts Ash and Elena delve deeper into the chilling case of Herbert Mullin, known as "The Killer Hippie." This episode continues the exploration of Mullin's tragic and violent spree, providing detailed insights into his motives, actions, and the subsequent investigation that led to his capture.

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Background on Herbert Mullin

Herbert Mullin was an autopsy technician whose descent into violence was marked by mental instability and obsessive delusions. Despite his outward appearance of normalcy—being described as bright, popular, and an excellent student during his high school years—Mullin struggled with profound mental health issues exacerbated by drug use and delusional beliefs.

[07:50] Ash: "Yes, he's mentally ill, obviously."

[07:54] Elena: "He is not insane. He knows what he's doing."

---

The Murders

Jim and Joan Gianera and Kathy Francis

Mullin's killing spree intensified when he targeted friends and acquaintances, beginning with Jill Gianera and her husband Jim. On January 25, 1972, Mullin visited the Gianera household under the guise of seeking Jim, who had provided him with his first joint in high school. The interaction quickly escalated when Mullin felt wronged and frustrated, leading him to open fire.

Jim Gianera was shot multiple times, sustaining severe injuries before attempting to shield himself and his wife, Joan, who was subsequently gunned down. The brutality of these murders showcased Mullin's lack of restraint and his delusional mission to "sacrifice" individuals to prevent an impending disaster he believed was imminent.

[08:34] Ash: "Yeah, that's quite a time to ponder that."

[08:35] Elena: "He's wondering if he's, you know, if this is the mission he's supposed to be taking."

The Francis Family

Shortly after the Gianera murders, Mullin's violence extended to the Francis family. On January 25th, while Kathy Francis was attending to her children, Mullin attacked her without warning, killing her instantly and subsequently murdering her two young children, David (9) and Damon (4). This heinous act further solidified Mullin's reputation as a remorseless killer driven by twisted beliefs.

[20:54] Ash: "Yeah. Absolutely not crazy."

[20:57] Elena: "He killed children because he didn't. He knew they could."

The Four Teenagers in the Woods

Mullin's spree continued when he encountered four teenagers camping in Henry Cowell State Park. Agitated by their perceived irresponsibility—leaving trash around—which he equated to polluting the planet, Mullin approached them under the false pretense of being a park ranger. The confrontation turned lethal as he systematically shot each teenager, leaving their bodies in the tent amidst scattered feathers and debris.

[34:12] Ash: "Oh, my God."

[34:13] Elena: "They all crumpled to the ground in a literal pile of bloody bodies."

Fred Perez

The final known victim was Fred Perez, a 72-year-old retired prizefighter and businessman. On February 10, 1972, while Perez was peacefully standing on the sidewalk, Mullin shot him directly in the heart with a .22 caliber revolver. This murder occurred in Perez's own neighborhood, highlighting Mullin's capacity for randomness and disregard for human life.

[36:35] Elena: "He hit Fred Perez directly in the heart with a shot and killed him instantly."

[37:41] Ash: "But this is totally about sacrifice."

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Investigation and Patterns

Following the murders, law enforcement began to notice patterns linking the victims. The sparse evidence at the scenes suggested a meticulous yet frenzied approach by Mullin. Notably, the presence of shell casings and the use of similar firearms across multiple murder sites indicated a serial pattern. Despite the randomness of some killings, the connections to previous victims like the Gianeras and the Francises pointed toward a common perpetrator.

[24:24] Ash: "That's literally exactly what it is, sir."

[24:29] Elena: "So since the murders of the Ota family two years earlier...and the recent disappearances of local college girls, investigators began to piece together the pattern."

---

Arrest and Evidence Linking

Mullin's arrest on February 13, 1972, stemmed from the eyewitness account of Fred Perez's murder. Neighbors witnessed Mullin's suspicious vehicle and his actions during the shooting, leading to his swift apprehension. Further forensic evidence, including fingerprint matches and ballistic analyses, tied Mullin to nine murder victims, solidifying his status as the primary suspect in the spate of killings.

[38:40] Ash: "We got neighborhood watch going on."

[39:09] Ash: "Yeah."
[39:10] Elena: "In the days that followed, that pistol would be a match for the slugs found in nine murder victims."

---

Trial and Defense

During the trial, Mullin entered a plea of innocent by reason of insanity. His defense hinged on his mental state, arguing that his actions were the result of uncontrollable delusions and voices he believed compelled him to act. Dr. Charles Morris, Mullin's psychiatrist, contended that while Mullin was mentally ill, he was not legally insane and understood the wrongfulness of his actions.

Mullin took the stand to testify, presenting a contradictory narrative. He claimed moral reservations about killing and recounted seeking strength from a church to desist, despite his continued violent behavior. His testimony was marked by inconsistency and attempts to align his actions with perceived higher purposes, undermining the insanity defense.

[46:43] Ash: "Told reporters that Herbert Mullin was extremely bright and very popular in high school."

[47:10] Elena: "When asked if he had anything to say, he said, in accordance with the fifth Amendment, I will make no statement."

---

Verdict and Aftermath

On August 19th, after brief jury deliberation, Mullin was found guilty of two counts of first-degree murder and eight counts of second-degree murder. The jury dismissed the insanity plea, concluding that Mullin was aware of the moral and legal implications of his actions. This decision was met with outrage from the jury foreman, Ken Springer, who blamed systemic failures in mental health care for the loss of 13 lives.

Mullin was sentenced to life in prison at Mule Creek State Prison. Despite multiple attempts to attain parole, he remained incarcerated until his death from natural causes in 2022 at the age of 75.

[50:25] Ash: "Yeah. Like, he literally walked around a couple of scenes and picked up shell casings."

[51:54] Ash: "That's the thing. Like, the defense attorney there wants to point to the jury as having it be their fault. It's like, no, it's actually a system failure. Like, it is most of the time."

---

Conclusions and Reflections

Herbert Mullin's case underscores the tragic intersection of mental illness and societal failures. Despite his intelligence and initial maneuvering to appear rehabilitated, Mullin's inability to receive consistent mental health treatment culminated in a devastating murder spree. The episode highlights the importance of effective mental health interventions and systemic support to prevent such tragedies.

[52:22] Elena: "He wrote in the letter...Herbert Mullen could and did respond favorably to treatment of his mental illness."

[54:06] Elena: "But putting out a personal ad, like really, we're trying to do that. Like, come on."

---

Notable Quotes

• Elena: "So he was convinced that this was okay." ([33:34])
• Ash: "You never have to take responsibility for your actions." ([32:39])
• Elena: "The jury appears to have recognized that he definitely struggled with mental illness." ([50:25])

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Morbid paints a comprehensive portrait of Herbert Mullin, exploring the depths of his disturbed psyche and the catastrophic impacts of inadequate mental health support. Ash and Elena provide a nuanced analysis, interweaving factual recounting with critical reflections on the broader implications of Mullin's actions.

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Stay tuned for more gripping true crime stories on Morbid. Remember to join Wondery Plus for early access and ad-free episodes.

Transcript

[Ash]

Hey weirdos, it's Ash here. Ready to share a little secret. Have you heard of Wondery Plus? With ad free episodes and one week early access, it's like having an all access pass to our lighthearted nightmare. So come join us on the dark side and try Wondery Today. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

[Elena]

You're listening to a Morbid network podcast.

[Ash]

Let Audible expand your life by listening explore over 1 million audiobooks and exclusive Audible originals that will inspire and motivate you all in one easy app. Tap into your well being with advice and insight from leading professionals and experts on better health, relationships, career, finance, investing and even more. Maybe you want to kick a bad habit or start a good one. Recently I listened to so Thirsty which was really good. I like how the narrator went between the two characters voices. That was really fun. And then I just started listening to God of the Woods. So good. Get advice and insight from leading professionals and experts on health, relationships, career, finance, investing and more. There's so much opportunity to learn and more to imagine when you you listen. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.commorbid they say time waits for no one, but I think neither should Payday to keep your money moving in the direction of your dreams, get Earnin. Watch your earnings tick up as you work. It's easy and it's free to get started. Add your bank and employment info and they will verify your paycheck. Earnin is designed to support you in the short term and the long term. I feel like it's always those things that you're not expecting, like unexpected trips to the vet, unexpected car work. That always used to happen to me all the time and I'd be like I have no money though. But you will because Earnin is that app that gives you access to your pay as you work up to 150 per day with a max of 750 between paydays. Download Earn in today spelled E A R N I N in the Google Play or Apple App Store. When you download the Earn an app, type in Morbid under Podcast when you sign up. It'll really help the show. Morbid under Podcast Earnin is a financial technology company, not a bank. Cash outs are based on your available earnings. Standard cash outs take one to two business days with no mandatory fees option to expedite your transfer for a fee. Tips are voluntary and don't affect the service. See the Cash Out User Agreement for details. Service not Available in all states.

[Elena]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena.

[Ash]

I'm Ash.

[Elena]

And this is Morbid. Hey, Smorbid.

[Ash]

It sounded like you said smorbid.

[Elena]

Smorbid.

[Ash]

Smorbid.

[Elena]

You can have s'more of morbid.

[Ash]

Funny. We've just been roasting each other all day.

[Elena]

I love the.

[Ash]

I was like, haha. You're so funny.

[Elena]

We have been roasting each other all day.

[Ash]

All week, really.

[Elena]

And it's not just me roasting Ash. Ash is roasting me back.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Elena]

Don't worry.

[Ash]

Somebody come get her.

[Elena]

She being mean. So she being mean. Nothing has happened since the last time we record.

[Ash]

Because the last time we recorded was yesterday. We. Yeah, I'm trying to think. Did it literally anything happened?

[Elena]

What can we talk about, guys? What do you guys want to talk about?

[Ash]

Raise your hand if you have something for the class.

[Elena]

We're coming up on our 666th episode.

[Ash]

And it's going to be a Listener Tales episode.

[Elena]

Yes. Which means we're going to dress up.

[Ash]

And boy, do we have something.

[Elena]

So that's exciting.

[Ash]

I ordered all the good romance of my costume today. Fun.

[Elena]

Me too. And we got some good news yesterday for. For the near future. Oh yeah, Some. Some good, good things.

[Ash]

Not me being like, what.

[Elena]

What she talk about?

[Ash]

I said, what do we learn?

[Elena]

Yesterday we learned some wonderful things. So that there's, you know. I'm looking forward to that. Oh, we watched a very interesting movie on Scream. This is just a random thing to tell you guys because in case you haven't listened to Screaming over here, Ash.

[Ash]

Picked it so good.

[Elena]

And I think it's worth throwing it over here in case you. In case you haven't been listening to Scream. You should. It's fun.

[Ash]

Go listen to Scream.

[Elena]

Fun as hell. Caleb's a goddamn hoot, so let's.

[Ash]

A hoot and a half even.

[Elena]

He's a hoot and a half.

[Ash]

A hoot and a half.

[Elena]

And you know, we take suggestions for movies and we also pick our own. It's a lot of fun over there. We don't take it too seriously and neither will you. Nobody will. But it's really fun. So go, go listen. But if you haven't yet and you're like, what are you talking about, Ash? Her pick for the movie last week was a movie called Hellbender.

[Ash]

It was so fun.

[Elena]

It is such a cool movie.

[Ash]

I'm looking up the girl on TikTok who recommended it originally.

[Elena]

It's Kate. It is Feral Pisces.

[Ash]

Wow. Listen to you.

[Elena]

Just remembering the TikTok name, because I, too, follow Kate on TikTok.

[Ash]

We love a feral Pisces, so that's.

[Elena]

Her TikTok handle is feral Pisces. She's grateful.

[Ash]

Yeah. Because I was watching Yellow Jackets, and then I follow Kate anyways.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Just our friend.

[Elena]

Kate, Our friend.

[Ash]

Hey, anybody? I follow on Tik Tok. I'm like, we're friends. And she recommended it. She was like, it's very, like, similar vibes, and it is. It's like, like, sort of similar. It's, like, got, like, folky horror vibes.

[Elena]

That's the thing. I think it's got, like, the DNA of, like, that kind of vibe, you know? Like, it's. It's a very unique story. Uhhuh. The people who make it are like a family, so they have, like, a really unique story, and I think they're like the Addams family. Literally. Literally. Their last name is Adams, and they're.

[Ash]

Really good at what they do.

[Elena]

I think they do a great job, and I think they tell stories really differently.

[Ash]

It's fun.

[Elena]

There's another movie that they did, I can't remember. Where the Devil Roams. I think.

[Ash]

Yeah. I think it is where the Devil.

[Elena]

Roams that we're gonna cover next week on Scream.

[Ash]

I'm excited.

[Elena]

Yeah, I'm very excited about it. So, again, this is literally just us being like, hey, this is a cool thing that we've got here. Pass on to you. So if you're looking for an interesting, really spooky, really cool movie, like something.

[Ash]

You'Ve never seen before.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's just gonna make you go, what the. Afterwards. But, like, in the best way. Hellbender, it's really.

[Ash]

Check it out in, like, a weird way.

[Elena]

Beautifully shot.

[Ash]

Beautifully shot. And, like, weirdly a beautiful story.

[Elena]

It is. Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, not. But yeah, but yes.

[Elena]

But yes, at the end. So give it a shot. I just thought that was, like, a fun little. Little thing.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Good tell you guys. You know, we're always trying to tell me cool stuff.

[Ash]

I want to watch that movie again.

[Elena]

I do, too. It's great, but unfortunately, we have to talk about this stain.

[Ash]

I know, but at least I feel he gets apprehended in this part.

[Elena]

Yeah, he's not gonna. He doesn't win in the end. So there's that.

[Ash]

Yeah, I did look up, like, a couple things because I just needed to know for my own psyche last.

[Elena]

Well, you always have to see what they look like, too.

[Ash]

Yes. That was a trip.

[Elena]

That is a trip. If you look him up, he looks very normal.

[Ash]

When he's younger.

[Elena]

When he's younger. Yeah.

[Ash]

You can see why people got into his car, lend him a hand, but.

[Elena]

He came off almost clean cut.

[Ash]

No, literally.

[Elena]

Yeah, he did, you know, like, he, he very much was.

[Ash]

It's actually interesting that they called him the hippie killer because he doesn't look like a hippie.

[Elena]

So he's called the hippie killer. I think not, because he's the hippie in this scenario for killing hippies. He was also, he. While he had some hippie ideals, he also had disdain for hippies. Oh, okay. So I think this is like a double edged sword here.

[Ash]

Interesting that she had to stay in for hippies.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because like everything that you've described about his personality so far, like, as far as, you know, like New age thinking and psychedelics. Yeah.

[Elena]

It's very pretty hypotenuse. Yeah. He was very confused. Yes, I would say.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And what we'll see with Herbert Mullen, too is he is mentally ill, obviously.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

But he is not insane. He knows what he's doing.

[Ash]

Yeah. And he knows what he's wrong.

[Elena]

And we will see. Yeah, we will see instances where he covers up things or makes sure he takes bullet casings or such. He's very, he's. He does not have diminished capacity in the sense that he doesn't know what he's doing is wrong.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So that you can, you can hold on to that as like this guy. Yeah. But the last we talked about him, he had, you know, he had killed Mary Guilfoyle, he had killed Lawrence White, he had killed a literal priest in a confessional.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

And he is now wondering whether he is doing things correctly.

[Ash]

That's quite a time to ponder that.

[Elena]

He's wondering if he's, you know, if this is the mission he's supposed to be taking. And so he starts and he's also thinking like, okay, I don't think I'm stopping an impending disaster from happening. So when we last left you, I said that he was also. The voices in his head that he was. That he said were in there included his father's voice at this point.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elena]

And he was now considering whether he could find a more morally righteous way to continue this mission of his.

[Ash]

Well, you've already killed three people, so it's a little too late. There's no, like, turn back now.

[Elena]

Well, and also, like, the mission is to sacrifice. So there's really no moral, morally righteous way to do that.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

What he was thinking in January 1973 was that he could join the military.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

So he tried to convince his father to allow him to join the military, and he submitted an application to the US Marine Corps.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

In Martin Mullins mind, which is his father, the Marines would give his son some stability, some direction, help him grow out of whatever phase he was in, you know, it's not a phase, dad. It's not a phase, dad. But from Herbert Mullin's perspective, the military is kind of ideal for him because he could, one, make his father proud of him finally. And he could also continue what he saw as his important work, saving the world, because he would be in an environment where killing wasn't just permissible, it was kind of expected.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So he figured that was, like, the way to make this better. Okay. Now, having talked to so many doctors in the previous five years or so, he had become really good. And I mentioned this in part one at like, anticipating what people wanted to hear, you know, so, like, he could. He knew how to work the system. He knew how to get out of stuff. So the initial paperwork and interview phase flew right by. Like, he killed it.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Elena]

But when it came to the criminal record and drug history part of it, he couldn't talk his way out of that one.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Can't talk your way out of your own past.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

His criminal record showed several interactions with law enforcement, many of which ended with hospitalization. And he was still actively using drugs, which was gonna show up on drug tests.

[Ash]

It usually does.

[Elena]

So in just a matter of weeks, his plan to turn his whole life around and manage his responsibilities, it all fell apart. But although there was really only one person to blame for not being accepted into the military, he obviously wasn't gonna blame himself. He wasn't gonna in this. So this just became yet another paranoid delusion that the world was against him. You know, it wasn't his behavior that had caused him to be rejected. It was society's conspiracy to prevent him from the greatness that he was destined for.

[Ash]

Totally.

[Elena]

So he wasn't just disappointed with this, he was pissed.

[Ash]

That's not great.

[Elena]

Now, in Herbert Mullin's mind, it wasn't just the universe that was conspiring against him, but it was the drugs.

[Ash]

The drugs were conspiring against him.

[Elena]

Well, they had clouded his mind for years, and he blamed marijuana worst of all, which is wild work that that's truly out of all the ones he's doing to blame the pot.

[Ash]

I'm like, bro, you were doing lsd.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And even still, like, that probably fucked you up, but it wasn't totally all of the drug's fault.

[Elena]

No. In his, like, wildly warped logic, he reasoned that smoking pot was what led him to make his bad choices. Yeah, it was. It was the pot that was responsible for his bad relationship with his parents. And most importantly, it was what led to so many hospitalizations. It was totally that.

[Ash]

Just the pot.

[Elena]

Just that. Okay, so. But again, like, his rejection from the military, he couldn't take responsibility for his drug use over the years. It wasn't him who had decided to do this. Instead, he was like, I'm gonna place the blame on the person who started me down this road in the first place.

[Ash]

Yourself.

[Elena]

So a little before 9am on the morning of January 25, Kathy Francis was just barely awake, just starting her day, when she heard not a knocking on her door, but like a tapping. Oh, I hate that. A very light tapping. And she wasn't expecting anyone. It was the morning. So she was like, excuse me, what?

[Ash]

So that's fucking sinister.

[Elena]

She was not happy. So she opened the door and she found a slightly dishevel old Herbert Mullin standing in front of her. She kind of knew him. Like, she barely knew him, but she just kind of recognized him by sight, essentially. So she tried to be a little polite because she was kind of like.

[Ash]

I think I knew you.

[Elena]

Yeah. He had actually come looking for Jim Gianera, who was the former occupant of this house, and the guy who had first given Herbert Mullen his first joint back in high school. Okay. Yeah. Wow. Yep.

[Ash]

How old is he at this point? It's like in his, like, early twenties.

[Elena]

Yeah, early twenties.

[Ash]

I couldn't tell you.

[Elena]

Like mid twenties, I would say.

[Ash]

I have no idea who gave me my first joint.

[Elena]

And also, it's not that guy's fault.

[Ash]

It's not that you took the joint, you smoked it. And that's not even the problem.

[Elena]

That's not even the issue.

[Ash]

Sometimes the stressors just start coming and they don't stop coming. You know, you wake up late, your coffee machine's broken. You go to go get a coffee and then the line's too long and then you're late for work.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

Well, Kathy explained that Jim hadn't lived in the house for a few months and then gave him directions to Jim's new house because he thought he was a friend.

[Ash]

Yeah, of course. Like Kathy, she didn't do anything wrong.

[Elena]

Kathy knew who he was, like a little bit.

[Ash]

Not like a complete stranger. Yeah.

[Elena]

And like she was like, oh, you're looking for your friend. He kind of made it seem like I'm looking for a friend. So like, okay. And she was like, oh, it's like a few blocks away. He lives in a different house. And then just closed the door and went back to bed. Now, Herbert Mullen got back in his car and drove the seven miles to Jim and Joan Gianara's house on Western Drive.

[Ash]

Jim and Joan Gianara. I'm obsessed.

[Elena]

Yeah. This couple had bought the house sometime earlier and had finally finished renovations and were able to move in a few months earlier. Unfortunately, since then, Jim had struggled to find work, and they'd run out of money.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

So that January, they'd been living without electricity.

[Ash]

Oh, man.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now, like Kathy Francis, Jim hadn't been expecting anyone that morning. So the knock on the door was a little bit of a surprise. It had been a while since the two of them had seen each other. They went to high school together. But Jim recognized Herbert Mullen immediately, but didn't invite him inside. And out of nowhere, Herbert just said, I'm really pissed about the time I've been wasting. And Jim was like, sorry to hear that. Sorry. Sorry about that. Like, I. Okay. Like, he was just confused. Like, what? And before Jim could say anything back to him, because what the fuck else? What was he gonna say? The phone rang. And so he was like, excuse me, I just have to answer the phone really quick.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And he went in to answer the phone, and Herbert walked in the door and closed it behind him. Now, Jem hung up the phone and turned around and was like, what the fuck are you doing in my house? I didn't invite you in.

[Ash]

Yeah, you can't just walk in here, dude.

[Elena]

And he was about to yell at him to leave, and then he noticed the revolver in Herbert Mullins hand, and he turned to run. And from behind, Jim heard a crack. And a bullet grazed his right arm. Oh, man. He made it to the kitchen and he flung the refrigerator door open, hoping to shield himself. But another bullet struck him in the left elbow, shattering the bone.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah.

[Elena]

So he grasped at the counter for a knife or anything he could use to defend himself, but he didn't find anything, and instead he just charged at Herbalist, who simply sidestepped and then turned and shot Jim again, this time hitting him in the back. And the bullet this time tore through his lung and sent him crashing into the stairs.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

So Jim struggles and gets himself up. Now his lung has been like, shot. Like a bullet went through his lung. He gets himself up the stairs in order to warn his wife. Oh, he heard the crack of the gun again as he's trying to get up the stairs. And the bullet struck the door jamb above the door and like exploded the wood. Now, Joan had been showering when Herb arrived, and the noise of the water blocked out all the chaos downstairs. She didn't hear a lot of it. So when she opened the door and stepped into the hallway in a towel, she was shocked to see her husband now stumbling towards her. Blood was pouring from his left side and streaming out of his mouth.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

He managed to shove Joan back into the bathroom and slammed the door and yelled at her to lock the door.

[Ash]

As he's bleeding to death.

[Elena]

Yeah. And he like, shoved his wife into the bathroom to like, protect her.

[Ash]

Oh my God.

[Elena]

And from inside the bathroom, Joan heard the gun fire two more times.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

One bullet hit Jim in the stomach and the second went through his back and struck his heart and killed him.

[Ash]

Oh my God. And she's just standing in the bathroom having no idea what the fuck is going on.

[Elena]

No idea who this man is. Now, from inside the bathroom, so Herb could hear Joan hysterically sobbing from inside the bathroom.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

And so he just broke down the door with his hands and feet, just kicked open the door.

[Ash]

Oh, this is like a nightmare.

[Elena]

Yeah. Once inside, he aimed the gun at Joan and fired three times, quickly hitting her twice in the neck and once in the face, just above her left eye.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

He was never fully confident that a gun was sufficient for the purpose of sacrifice. So he decided to take out his hunting knife that he had with him too, and stabbed Joan in the back three times, once for each bullet.

[Ash]

But didn't do that to the husband.

[Elena]

No. What, he then collected the shell cases from the bathroom floor? Yep. And from the hallway and then proceeded downstairs to collect the rest of them. And he stuck the gun back into his waistband and then he noticed that a button from his coat was missing, but he was like, ah, whatever. And he just left the house.

[Ash]

Good.

[Elena]

Now, back at the Francis house, remember Kathy who originally opened the door? I would like to give a quick trigger warning. This part is very upsetting.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

Back at the Frances house, her two children had woken up and Kathy was doing her best to get nine year old David and four year old Damon ready for the day.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Nine year old Damon had had a cold the last few days and he looked like he was going to be staying home from school one more day. So she went out into the yard and found some kindling to get the fire started in the stove. She just put down some breakfast for the Boys. When she heard a knock at the front door. Oh. When she opened it, she was looking down the barrel of Herbert Mullins gun.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

Kathy didn't even have time to say a word before Herb fired the gun and hit her straight in the head. Killed her immediately. He stepped over her and he entered and closed the door behind him. And he thought he was going to find a husband or a boyfriend in the house. And he realized that he heard voices, but they were children's voices. So just to be clear, remember before he was saying that he was considering like how morally wrong this felt and he wanted to find a morally righteous way of doing this. I don't know what happened here. He didn't stop to think about, you know, the moral implications of killing children here because he simply raised the gun and fired twice and hit both of them in the head, killing them instantly.

[Ash]

Oh my God.

[Elena]

Then he walked around and stabbed each of them with the hunting knife to make sure that he had properly sacrificed them.

[Ash]

And he also has, like, no matter what, this is so fucked. But he has no idea who this even is.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

So that's not. It's still not fitting the narrative that he's trying to.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

Like, create.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

What?

[Elena]

A nine year old and a four year old. Four year old and their mother.

[Ash]

Nine year old. Oh my God.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. Now, unlike the three previous victims who had yet to be linked, investigators immediately suspected the Gianeras and the Francis's had been killed by the same person because there was a personal connection between the victims and similar circumstances under which they had been killed.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

The scenes of both murders were remarkably sparse when it came to evidence. And in at least one of them, the Francis house, there looked like there was no struggle because there wasn't. Right.

[Ash]

It had.

[Elena]

He had just shot her in the face and then killed her two small children.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

They did however, note that the person connecting the families, Robert Francis, was unaccounted for and hadn't been seen in at least two days.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

In a press release the following day, Sheriff Doug James stated there appear to be drug overtones in the case. And when they did finally locate Robert Francis, he was ruled out immediately as a suspect. Yeah. Now, not wanting to cause panic, Santa Cruz police Captain Dick Overton urged residents to, quote, unquote, keep cool. Stay cool, man. Just stay cool. Don't be all like, uncool. And he said, just go about your daily lives. She's normal.

[Ash]

Two families have been slaughtered, but like, yeah, keep it chill, man.

[Elena]

And also he said, this is not A case of somebody running amok and shooting people.

[Ash]

It's actually exactly what this is.

[Elena]

This thing has a pattern to it. It's not a case of some crazy man running around shooting people.

[Ash]

No, it's. That's literally exactly what it is, sir. And what basis do you have? What do you otherwise.

[Elena]

So since the murders of the Ota family two years earlier. We talked about them in part one.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And the recent disappearances of a local. A number of local college girls, thanks to Ed Kemper, Santa Cruz residents had started arming themselves.

[Ash]

I would.

[Elena]

Which Overton knew increased the potential for an accidental shooting to happen. But while his desire to avoid, you know, like, panicking the public and having some accidents happen that could have some real consequences, he was very wrong because this was one of the rare incidences of someone, quote, running amok and shooting people at random. This literally was. Now, the more time that passed, the more kind of like adept Herbert got at justifying his murders. He was able to convince himself that it. Which shows you also that he was doing some real mental gymnastics here to make it.

[Ash]

And investigators shot and killed two kids.

[Elena]

There's.

[Ash]

What are you doing?

[Elena]

Exactly. An investigator's inability to connect the crimes only served as further evidence of his divine purpose. In his mind, he's not getting caught. Exactly. By February, he had stopped taking drugs altogether and replaced his drug use with long hikes in the mountains around Santa Cruz, which, my goodness, I wish you had done that your whole life.

[Ash]

Yeah, just take a hike. Literally. Take a hike.

[Elena]

Yeah, take a hike now. On the morning of February 10, he went out for a hike in Henry Cowell State park, just off Highway 9, not far from where Lawrence White's body was discovered. And these hikes, he said, gave him time away from his parents, you know, gave him peace, gave him a little quiet, made his head feel clear. Why the fuck were you doing this forever? So he loved these, like, this was his moment of like peace.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So he was very irritated when he came across four teenagers camping in the woods that morning.

[Ash]

Oh, how dare they?

[Elena]

Yeah, how dare they do a thing they're allowed to do in nature.

[Ash]

Like what?

[Elena]

Yeah. The teens, 18 year old David Olaker, 18 year old Robert Spector, 19 year old Brian Scott Card and 15 year old Mark Drebelbis, I believe is how you say it, had come to the area a few days earlier and they'd been living at like, they'd made themselves like a little lean too.

[Ash]

Oh, okay.

[Elena]

And when he came upon them that morning, he was absolutely disgusted because he saw a bunch of trash around the large tent and he intended to speak to them about it. So his initial thought was not to immediately kill them.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Which is also interesting.

[Ash]

Or so he says. Right.

[Elena]

Well, he doesn't initially like, that's. This isn't the first thing he does. Okay. So he stands outside the tent and he coughs loudly to get their attention. And so they all made their way out of the tent, and he tells them, you're on public property and it's illegal to camp here, and you're polluting the woods with your garbage to pick it up. So they are teenage boys. So they mocked him, which only made Herb angrier with them. So he told them he was a park ranger and he was giving them until the next day to clear out the area or they'd be arrested.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Which is so weird.

[Ash]

Yeah, that is weird.

[Elena]

You know? So he left the area and he continues his hike. But he just couldn't get this interaction out of his mind.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

This is where the, the, like the illness comes into play. I feel. Yeah, this is just me, like speculating, of course from afar because it feels like he had like a moment of clarity of just being like a curmudgeon there and just being like, you dumped me. What are you doing?

[Ash]

Yeah, do Gooder.

[Elena]

And he was leaving. And then as he's leaving, it's like the every. It clouded again and it's like, like that rain cloud set upon his brain and was like, no, no. Like you need to be irrational here and be so. It's very interesting to see how this all played out.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's like he. It's like an urge that he just can't fight against.

[Elena]

Very strange. So he can't stop thinking about it, you know, in his head. Here he is doing everything he can to protect the world from this impending natural disaster and these teens are just throwing garbage all over the place and then mocking him when he shares his concerns about the environment. What the fuck?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Under a normal circumstance, you would be like, yeah, that does suck. Under normal circumstances, a regular Joe, you.

[Ash]

Know, you'd Be like, damn, what a shitty day.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You'd be like, man, here, though.

[Elena]

But him, you're like, fuck you, dude.

[Ash]

Yup.

[Elena]

So at first it occurred to Herb that he could just go back to the campsite and kill them all. And then he was like, you know what? I can't do that, because this would be a personal grievance and not keeping with my mission.

[Ash]

Wasn't the last murder a personal grievance?

[Elena]

Thank you.

[Ash]

You're welcome.

[Elena]

Because Jim was the first person to give him a joint, which he considered the beginning of all this, which is. That's a personal grievance by definition.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, that's not part of your mission.

[Ash]

Maybe he was feeling some type of way about that.

[Elena]

Yeah. I think he's just a lying sack of shit. And I think that he. By his own admission, he knows how to convince people of certain things. Knows how to convince people that he's okay to be let out of a hospital.

[Ash]

Well.

[Elena]

And remember, knows how to convince people to let him in the military.

[Ash]

He was really smart.

[Elena]

He's very smart.

[Ash]

Like, excelled in school. One of the top students. Great athletes.

[Elena]

Very manipulative.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

He admitted it himself. That's how he got out of the hospital. Like, hospitalization center. Every time, multiple. Yeah. So this, to me, feels like him later being like, oh, well, this is why I didn't do it, to make it seem like I'm still under that fog of, like, I have a personal mission. Like, trying to make sure he stays in that narrative.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But he forgot that he had fucked it up already. Like, I think this is one of those, like, oops, Gotcha.

[Ash]

Gotcha. Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah. So that makes no sense. No, it doesn't. So over the course of the afternoon, he kept obsessing over this interaction, slowly convincing himself, of course, that while he had, you know, it had been a bad interaction with him with these kids, the fact remained that they were polluting the planet. So sacrificing them to him felt like it made sense. He eventually convinced himself that this was okay.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

So later that night, he came back under the COVID of darkness, came back into the park.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Elena]

He hiked back out to the campsite and approached it. He wanted to catch them off guard.

[Ash]

This is so scary.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because they probably thought nothing else.

[Elena]

They forgot about him completely. I bet. Like, they. That just wasn't even a blip on their radar.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

But the fire was still burning when he found the camp. And inside the tent, he could hear them chatting and laughing with each other. Yeah. So armed with a 22 caliber pistol. He approached the tent and started unfastening the snaps that held the flaps closed.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

He startled them, obviously. And as soon as the tent opened, none of them had a chance to say a word because he just started firing. And all six shots hit their intended targets. Each of them got hit in the head. They all crumpled to the ground in a literal pile of bloody bodies.

[Ash]

Oh, that's awful. And they're all. These are young kids.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, they're teenagers. And it's like they're in a pile now in this tent with down feathers everywhere because he shot through pillows, tattered sleeping bags. Like, what an awful scene. So after shooting the boys, he went through their pockets and took whatever money they had on them.

[Ash]

It's weird because I thought this was just for, like, you know, a mission. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Elena]

What did that do?

[Ash]

I thought this was all for, like, higher moral purposes.

[Elena]

And then he just tossed their wallets on the ground and left. And. Oh, he also grabbed a rifle that he found in the corner of the tent because he said they didn't need it anymore. Oh, wow.

[Ash]

This guy's a grade A douchebag.

[Elena]

So since he began his project of, you know, saving mankind in November, he had killed 12 innocent people. Wow. Very innocent people. Chosen mostly at random. Yeah. Since then, his mental health had deteriorated considerably, and it seemed like no matter what he did, the voices in his head were there, just demanding more.

[Ash]

Supposedly.

[Elena]

Just three days after killing the boys in Henry Cowell State park, he was out for a drive in Santa Cruz when the voice came into his thoughts again, demanding another sacrifice. This is according to Herbert Mullenbauer.

[Ash]

Can we go back for a second? He pick up the trash?

[Elena]

That's a great.

[Ash]

He pick up the fucking trash.

[Elena]

That's a great question. That's a great question.

[Ash]

What about all those down feathers?

[Elena]

Are those good for the feathers that's polluting the environment?

[Ash]

What about all the trash you were.

[Elena]

So upset about and you just left the tent? That's not biodegradable. Yeah.

[Ash]

So fuck you.

[Elena]

So, like, fuck, none of this is.

[Ash]

What you're saying for.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

[Ash]

Sorry, go ahead.

[Elena]

No, don't worry.

[Ash]

I needed to say that.

[Elena]

I'm glad you said it, but. So he's driving through Santa Cruz, he hears the voice saying, you need to make another sacrifice. And at first he said he thought about resisting, but instead he just pulled a U turn and headed back into a quiet neighborhood that he'd just driven through.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

As Herb drove slowly down the street, he spotted 72 year old Fred Perez.

[Ash]

Are you kidding me?

[Elena]

He's just standing on the sidewalk. He was a longtime resident of Santa Cruz. He had once been a successful heavyweight prize fighter.

[Ash]

Stop it.

[Elena]

Before retiring from boxing and using his winnings to go into business for himself as a truck driver and a fishmonger. His businesses were successful. He was able to provide for his family. And then finally he passed the business down to his kids a few years later.

[Ash]

Aw.

[Elena]

It's not known what Fred was actually doing that afternoon. He was just hanging out on the sidewalk.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But it's likely he didn't even notice the Chevy car, like, slow to a stop nearby. And he definitely didn't notice the driver aim the.22 caliber rifle in his direction. So he hit Fred Perez directly in the heart with a shot and killed him instantly on the sidewalk in his own neighborhood.

[Ash]

It's just in his own neighborhood, living his life like.

[Elena]

And he did everything he had. Like, he had a successful career. He provided for his family, enjoys retirement now past his. And then he went into another business to, like, provide even more for his family and then passed that business onto his kids. And he's just retired and just living that.

[Ash]

But this is totally about sacrifice.

[Elena]

But this is definitely about that now. And so he was killed instantly on the sidewalk. Herb having done his, what he considered his duty, put it, you know, the safety back on the rifle, put it back in the trunk, and left the scene calmly. Just drove away.

[Ash]

Insane.

[Elena]

So Fred Perez likely never saw his killer, but someone else did.

[Ash]

Good.

[Elena]

That afternoon, Fred's neighbors had been out in their garden and they saw Herbert Mullen drive by. No, you don't.

[Ash]

We got neighborhood watch going on.

[Elena]

Fuck yeah. I love my badass. Yup.

[Ash]

I pull in my own neighborhood and I see people looking out their windows. Hell, yo. Hell yeah.

[Elena]

They. So his neighbors watched the U turn happen. They watched him slow to a stop a few yards from Perez, and they watched in horror as he was shot. They also managed to write down his license plate number before he'd gotten too far down the street. That's a real one. And immediately ran inside and called the police.

[Ash]

That is a real one.

[Elena]

Now, as luck would have it, the first officer to hear the report of the shooting go out over the radio was a patrol officer who was in the neighborhood where Perez lived. Oh, wow. And within a minute of the shooting, Herbert Mullen was pulled over on the side of the road. Wow. Within a minute.

[Ash]

One minute.

[Elena]

Yep. When the officer approached the driver's window, he noted the man behind the wheel matched the description of the man who'd fled the scene of the Perez shooting. And he noted the.22 caliber pistol laying on the passenger seat.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

In the days that followed, that pistol would be a match for the slugs found in nine murder victims. But for the time being, the officer placed him under arrest for the murder of Fred Perez, effectively ending Herbert Mullins five month murder spree that ended the lives of 13 people.

[Ash]

It's crazy. All that happened in five months.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now, when he was arrested on February 13, 1972, the bodies of Mary Guilfoyle, David Ohliker, Robert Spector, Brian Scott Card and Mark Drebelbis had not been discovered yet. Oh, but Santa Cruz police were still able to hold him for the murder of Fred Perez while they were still investigating. And in their interviews with those who knew Herbert Mullen, police learned very little about his background and any potential motive for these murders. The owner of the Pacific View Motel where Herb had been staying for the last few days described him as an ordinary guy. He said he was real quiet. We never saw him except when he came by the office to get his mail. And a former classmate was equally shocked by this whole thing and told reporters that Herbert Mullen was extremely bright and very popular in high school. He said Herb always seemed to be uptight, but he was popular, which is so wild.

[Ash]

That is really wild.

[Elena]

While reporters just went ham trying to get information about the accused killer, detectives were busy linking the gun back to the Francis and Gianara murders. On the afternoon of February 15, he was brought before a municipal court judge and arraigned for the murders of Fred Perez, Jim and Joan Giannera and Kathy, David and Damon Frank Francis, which. Oh, kills me. When asked if he had anything to say, he said, in accordance with the fifth Amendment, I will make no statement.

[Ash]

Okay, cool.

[Elena]

You little.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

The next day, fingerprints found in the confessional at St. Mary's Church were determined to be a match for Herbert Mullen. Wow. And he was charged with the murder of Father Henry To.

[Ash]

What a way to find that. That's great.

[Elena]

The arrest of Herbert Mullen came as a big relief to the residents of Santa Cruz. Unfortunately, they did not know at the time that there was definitely another killer on the loose.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

They had not got Edmund Kemper at that point. But the motive for the murders was still a mystery. Nobody could understand this was so random.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

And Herbert Mullen wasn't talking. So Peter Chang, who was the district attorney at the time, told reporters the motive for these slayings is not clearly defined, but it appears that each of these people was an acquaintance of the suspect at some time during troublesome phases of his life.

[Ash]

Not all of them at all.

[Elena]

Yeah. So it's like actually two. The logic, I guess, like you want. I don't know, it doesn't make any sense.

[Ash]

Seems like they were just trying to make people feel better.

[Elena]

I think it made sense about random crime. Yeah. It made sense in the killings of, you know, the Gianeras and the Francises, because he did have an acquaintance there. But it didn't explain the murder of Fred Perez or Father Tomei or Mary Guilfoyle or Lawrence White or the boys in the woods. Like, it didn't. None of those made sense.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah.

[Elena]

According to Santa Cruz Sheriff's Detective Ken Pittinger, who spoke with Herbert Mullin's family and former friends, Herbert, quote, freaked out on acid during a visit to San Francisco's haight Ashbury district two years after his high school graduation in 1965, which apparently could have accounted for his random and extremely violent behavior.

[Ash]

I'm going to go with no.

[Elena]

I'm like, I know that it didn't help no, it didn't help, but there. There was definitely other stuff here.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's not the like. Yeah, everybody knows a lot of people who have had a bad trip.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You can't account a murder spree.

[Elena]

Can't blame it on that. No.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

So the picture became even more opaque a few days later when the bodies of the four teenagers were discovered by Brian Scott Card's brother Jeffrey in the woods. He had not seen or heard from the group in two weeks. So Jeffrey Card hitchhiked from Los Angeles to Santa Cruz to the campsite where he found his brother and three friends dead in the tent.

[Ash]

Oh, it's aw. That he had to be the one to find that.

[Elena]

There was no evidence found at the scene to link Mullen to the killings, but investigators suspected he might be the one responsible anyways. And the body of Mary Guilfoyle had been discovered in the mountains a few days earlier.

[Ash]

Oh, God.

[Elena]

Which must have been horrific.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And Herb was suspected in that killing as well. And in a statement to the press, Chang referred to the murders as a, quote, psychopathic type of killing. And the link to Herbert Mullen was entirely speculative at this point point because it was. They didn't have any evidence. Within a few days of finding the teenagers in the woods, the murders of all four boys were linked back to Herbert Mullen through the.22 caliber revolver used in the other killings. And four more counts of murder were added to him. Additionally, the rifle used in the murder of Fred Perez was soon traced back to the teenagers because, remember, he took.

[Ash]

It from their town.

[Elena]

Which only strengthened the case against Mullen in the murders of David Olaker, Robert Spector, Brian Scott Card and Mark Dribelbus. Now, after a brief delay, Herbert Mullen finally appeared in court in mid June, and he entered a plea of innocent by reason of insanity. That plea obviously required the trial to go in two phases. One, to hear evidence of diminished capacity, the second, to determine guilt. By the time the case went to trial in early August, Herbert Mullen had been linked to the murders of Lawrence White and Mary Guilfoyle, bringing his victim count to 13, though he had only been charged with 10 murders at trial. Now, at trial, one of Herb's evaluating psychiatrists, Dr. Charles Morris, laid out his motives based on what Mullen had told him during their consultations. He said, I think he premeditated, considered it and went ahead and did it. Dr. Morris explained that Herb had sought revenge against Jim Gianera for, quote, leading him down the garden path, drug use. And he had killed the Francis family to get rid of any witnesses because he had already knocked on that door. Which means that tells you what? That he knew what he was doing.

[Ash]

He knew that was wrong and he.

[Elena]

Tried to cover it up.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

As for the boys in the woods, Morris claimed Herb, quote, had a thing out for hippies. And since these people were hippies, it was a good time to do away with them.

[Ash]

Feel like it's not even, like, a thing for hippies. He was just pissed about the trash.

[Elena]

Yeah. I think he just wanted to.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Basically, Dr. Morris didn't believe that Herb was criminally insane at the time of the murders.

[Ash]

Agreed.

[Elena]

Rather, he had been under considerable emotional strain and ultimately killed Fred Perez in order to get caught.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

They think he literally did that to get caught.

[Ash]

Do you think so?

[Elena]

I have no idea. Honestly, with that one. I can see both sides of that argument.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Because one, he does these. I mean, he did it to Lawrence White. He did it right on the side of the road. He hit him with the bat.

[Ash]

But it was a little more of.

[Elena]

A off to the side kind of thing. This was in a residential neighborhood. On the sidewalk, he was calm as a cucumber.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So. And I have to wonder, did he even. Did he see the neighbors? He might have even seen the neighbors and been like, I don't know.

[Ash]

Yeah. It is interesting to think about because.

[Elena]

I do believe he is a mentally unstable, mentally ill man. For sure. Absolutely.

[Ash]

I don't think you can argue that.

[Elena]

I just don't think he's insane.

[Ash]

Same. Agree. That's.

[Elena]

And those are two different things.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I can see both sides of the argument with the did he do it intentionally to get caught thing. I can see it being that. I could see it just being coincidence.

[Ash]

That he got caught.

[Elena]

Now, Mullen took the stand to testify in his own defense a few days later and did his best to refute much of what the doctor said. According to Mullen, quote, he didn't think it was right to kill. And he had gone to a Los Gatos church to give him strength to never attempt to kill again. Again, apparently that didn't work because then you killed a priest.

[Ash]

Yeah. In the church.

[Elena]

So, like, I don't know how much ground you have to stand on there.

[Ash]

Yeah. And then continued to kill many, many.

[Elena]

People after exactly over the course of several hours, he went on to claim that he was commanded to kill by the voices in his head, which sounds a lot like someone who is trying to get that insanity defense. And he gave what one reporter referred to as, quote, Quote, a rambling answer, complete with biblical references, which is kind of textbook. Kind of textbook. His testimony was often unfocused, very incoherent, frequently contradicted himself. You know, that kind of thing. For example, when asked why he killed the four young campers in the woods, he said, quote, I had been arrested in 1968 for camping and possession of marijuana, and it bothered me that they should get away with it. I'm sorry, what? I thought it was the polluting. Yeah. Like, what are you talking about?

[Ash]

And at no point earlier did he say they had marijuana on them.

[Elena]

No. And it's like, now you're saying that you were annoyed that they were allowed to camp there and you got in trouble for it, so you killed them.

[Ash]

What?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, hello?

[Elena]

Yeah. And in that way, he said he was enforcing the law.

[Ash]

No, that's not how the law works, actually, at all.

[Elena]

But then, only a short time later, he said something different about it. He said he, quote, received a telepathic message from the young men saying it was all right to kill. Kill them. So he did it.

[Ash]

Sounds like he just had an urge to kill people and follow through on that urge.

[Elena]

And he tried to. Tried to come up with a reason to explain it. Yeah. On August 19th, the jury deliberated briefly before finding Herb guilty on two counts of first degree murder and eight counts of second degree murder, effectively removing the question of diminished capacity from the case. The jury appears to have recognized that he definitely struggled with mental illness. No one is disagreeing with that. But they believed there was sufficient evidence to suggest he knew what he was doing and he knew that it was morally and legally wrong.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like, he literally walked around a couple of scenes and picked up shell casings.

[Elena]

Picked up shell casings.

[Ash]

Like, got rid of witnesses and the nuns.

[Elena]

Got rid of the whole friends. He got rid of children because he didn't. He knew they could. Could point and say, he showed up at my door.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

Like, come on. In a statement to the press, Herbert Mullin's attorney said he felt the jury had not wanted to find him criminally insane because he might end up being released at some point in the future. He told reporters if a man found innocent by reason of insanity, went to a hospital and was never going to get out, I think we'd have a lot more insanity verdicts. I don't think that's the case. I think they think he knew what he was doing was wrong. And, baby girl, why don't you look up the definition of legally insane?

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

Like, don't sit here and try to say, like, they just don't want him to get out of prison and get out of the hospital. It's like, no, we're just looking at the definition of legally insane and depending.

[Ash]

It on the jury. Like, that is just such a cop out.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like you. You failed. Well, and also, just days after the verdict, jury foreman Ken Springer wrote a letter to the governor expressing his outrage that no one had intervened to prevent this loss of 13 lives. Like, no one had intervened in Herbert Mullen's life and made this stop. He wrote, I hold the state executive and state legislative offices as responsible for these 10 lives as I do the defendant himself. None of this need ever have happened. And he cited his multiple hospitalizations and releases as missed opportunities to keep a killer off the street.

[Ash]

That's the thing. Like, the defense attorney there wants to point to the jury as having it be their fault. It's like, no, it's actually a system failure. Like, it is most of the time.

[Elena]

Very much a systemic failure here.

[Ash]

Yeah. And he was just pointing to what would continue to be a systematic failure. Because a lot of times people who are proven. Proven criminally insane do go to these hospitals and they do get let out.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And the whole fucking issue starts up again.

[Elena]

Yeah. The cycle begins again.

[Ash]

Right. So it's. It is a systematic failure. Yeah. He.

[Elena]

He wrote in the letter, according to testimony at his trial, Herbert Mullen could and did respond favorably to treatment of his mental illness. Illness. Yet the laws of the state certainly prohibit officials from forcing continued treatment of his illness. And I have the impression that they, as a matter of fact, discourage continued treatment by state and county institutions, probably. Which, like, all right, Ken.

[Ash]

I know, like, good for you.

[Elena]

Writing to your governor and being like, y'all, like. Like these 13 people didn't have to die.

[Ash]

More people need to do like that. Yeah.

[Elena]

Because it's like there's a. This is a. A failure on many levels. Herbert Mullen was ultimately sentenced to life in prison and sent to Mule Creek State Prison in loan to serve out his sentence. He tried many times to gain parole, but he was repeatedly deemed unsuitable by the parole board and denied. While at Mule Creek, he corresponded regularly with supporters outside the prison.

[Ash]

That's absolutely bomb.

[Elena]

And even attempted to find a wife.

[Ash]

Did he? No good.

[Elena]

In 1987, he placed an ad in the Scotts Valley Banner.

[Ash]

Why is that allowed?

[Elena]

And he wrote, seeking an Irish wife. And he described himself as 40 years old. I'm 14 years in prison. I desire to sire children now.

[Ash]

No, thank you.

[Elena]

You killed Children.

[Ash]

Yeah. Absolutely not crazy.

[Elena]

The ad was unsuccessful.

[Ash]

That's wild.

[Elena]

I know.

[Ash]

Also saying sire children is like I nuts.

[Elena]

I gotta go on. August 18, 2022.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Recently, Herbert Mullen died of natural causes at the California Healthcare facility in Stockton at 75 years old.

[Ash]

Unfortunate he doesn't bury his life out that long and die of natural causes.

[Elena]

Very, very unfortunate. I hate that he got to live.

[Ash]

I do too.

[Elena]

But because also he outlived Fred Perez and that makes me angry cuz Fred was 72. Yeah. I'm like you.

[Ash]

A lot of times actual justice is just really never served.

[Elena]

It's hard to come by sometimes.

[Ash]

Yeah, it is. I mean, at least he went to prison, but.

[Elena]

But yeah.

[Ash]

Just the fact that somebody like that shouldn't have had access to put an ad out for a wife.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

Like, I don't understand. I obviously like prison shouldn't be this like horrible, like throw away the key, you know? Yeah.

[Elena]

Like it should be. The whole part is supposed to be.

[Ash]

It should be for reform to a degree. And we've had that conversation so many times, but I just don't feel like somebody of that level of like, lack of humanity should be able to put a ad out for a while.

[Elena]

Exactly. I totally agree.

[Ash]

Like, should he be able to take a class and, you know, maybe better his mind a little bit.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

But like that kind of thing.

[Elena]

But putting out a personal ad, like really, we're trying to do that. Like, come on.

[Ash]

No, absolutely not.

[Elena]

Ridiculous.

[Ash]

Well, that was a crazy tale. Yeah.

[Elena]

That's Herbert Mullen.

[Ash]

With all that being said.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

We hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird, but not so weird that you go to prison after murdering a bunch of people and then place an ad in your local paper saying that you want to sire children. Gross.

[Elena]

With an Irish wife.

[Ash]

Yes. So, so specific.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Adorable, strange and upset.

[Elena]

Foreign.

[Ash]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.

[Mr. Ballin]

You know those creepy stories that give you goosebumps? The ones that make you really question what's real? Well, what if I told you that some of the strangest, darkest and most mysterious stories are not found in haunted houses or abandoned forests, but instead in hospital rooms and doctor's offices? Hi, I'm Mr. Ballin, the host of Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries. And each week on my podcast you can expect to hear stories about bizarre illnesses no one can explain, miraculous recoveries that shouldn't have happened, and cases so baffling they stumped even the best doctors. So if you crave totally true and thoroughly twisted horror stories and mysteries, Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries should be your new go to weekly show. Listen to Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondry app or on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.