Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe

Summary

Episode Summary: Morbid Episode 662 – The Exorcism of Roland Doe

In Episode 662 of Morbid, titled "The Exorcism of Roland Doe," hosts Ash and Elena explore one of America's most infamous supernatural cases that inspired the iconic horror novel and film, The Exorcist. This episode delves deep into the life of Ronald Hunkler, the mysterious events surrounding his alleged possession, the subsequent exorcism, and the enduring legacy of his story.

---

1. Introduction to the Case

The episode opens with Ash introducing the chilling tale of Ronald Hunkler, often referred to by pseudonyms such as Roland Doe or Robbie Manheim, to protect his identity. The story, dating back to 1949, centers around Ronald's purported demonic possession and the exorcism performed by clergy members, which captured public attention and inspired literary and cinematic adaptations.

Ash [05:11]: "We're going to talk about the exorcism of one Roland Doe."

---

2. Ronald Hunkler's Early Life

Ronald was born on June 1, 1935, in Cottage City, Maryland, to Edwin and Odell Hunkler. His upbringing was marked by financial struggles exacerbated by his mother's mother moving into their household. Ronald was described as a lonely and troubled child with poor social interactions, often treated as an outcast by his peers.

Elena [10:42]: "Love that name."

Ronald had a close but tumultuous friendship with a boy named John, characterized by mischief and occasional cruelty, reflecting Ronald's complex personality and possible underlying emotional issues.

---

3. The Onset of Paranormal Activity

In January 1949, during Ronald's eighth-grade year, his behavior became increasingly disruptive. The first significant incident occurred in the classroom when a desk began shaking violently, leading to Ronald being removed from school.

Elena [25:00]: "Holy."

Shortly after, Ronald and his grandmother began experiencing unexplained noises in the house, including dripping and scratching sounds. Objects, including a framed picture of Jesus Christ, began moving inexplicably, intensifying the family's concerns.

---

4. The Role of Aunt Tilly and Spiritual Influences

Ronald's Aunt Tilly, an eccentric and spiritually inclined relative, played a pivotal role in his life. She introduced him to occult practices such as Ouija boards and spirit rapping, which deepened the family's involvement in spiritualism amidst the escalating paranormal events.

Ash [18:38]: "So in Ronald's bedroom, Bowdern started talking with Ronald Roland to, quote, examine his conscious and make an act of contrition before starting the rite."

A deep bond between Ronald and Aunt Tilly provided him with a significant emotional outlet, contrasting with his strained relationships with peers and emotionally distant father.

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5. Escalation to Demonic Possession

By late February 1949, the phenomena escalated. Ronald developed scratch marks on his body, which were reported by his mother. The family, increasingly convinced of a supernatural cause, sought assistance from Reverend Luther Schultz and later from Father Raymond Bishop, who documented the events in his diary.

Ash [36:19]: "He'd done this sort of thing many times before to different kids."

Father Bishop's involvement marked a turning point, leading to official recognition of Ronald's case as one of diabolical possession, despite skepticism from investigative journalists.

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6. The Exorcism Ritual

In March 1949, with approval from Archbishop Joseph Ritter, Father William Bowdern and Father Walter Holloran initiated a month-long exorcism ritual at Ronald's home and Alexian Brothers Hospital in St. Louis. The process involved intense religious rites, including the use of blessed candles, holy water, and prayers in Latin.

Ash [52:11]: "So the priest continued aggressively reciting that rite of exorcism as Ronald just writhed around uncomfortably on the bed."

During the exorcism, Ronald exhibited extreme behaviors—violent thrashing, speaking in a diabolical high-pitched voice, and displaying unexplained physical marks. These manifestations were documented by Father Bishop, further fueling the legend surrounding Ronald's possession.

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7. Aftermath and Legacy

By April 18, 1949, the exorcism concluded with Ronald seemingly expelled from the demonic presence. He resumed a normal life, excelling academically and eventually becoming a scientist for NASA, which adds a fascinating twist to his earlier troubled years.

Elena [65:34]: "That's the funnest fact."

Despite his successful later life, Ronald's story remained shrouded in mystery and controversy, especially after Mark Opsaznik's investigative work revealed inconsistencies and lacked substantive evidence supporting the possession claims.

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8. Skepticism and Investigative Insights

Investigative journalist Mark Opsaznik uncovered significant doubts about the authenticity of Ronald's possession. Through interviews with over a hundred individuals connected to the case, Opsaznik highlighted Ronald's emotional struggles, his troubled home life, and suggested that his behaviors could be attributed to psychosomatic illness rather than actual demonic possession.

Ash [73:32]: "But Obsessnik didn't just speak to Ronald's friends and family."

Father Halloran, one of the exorcists, expressed skepticism, noting the absence of genuine supernatural phenomena and attributing observed events to natural causes, such as the bed's rollers.

Ash [70:01]: "When asked whether or not he would go on record as saying he believed that Ronald was truly possessed, he declined."

Opsaznik's findings advocate for a psychological explanation, emphasizing Ronald's need for attention and escape from his oppressive environment, rather than a supernatural affliction.

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9. Conclusion

Morbid Episode 662 presents a comprehensive exploration of Ronald Hunkler's alleged exorcism, balancing the dramatic supernatural claims with skeptical investigative perspectives. The episode underscores the complex interplay between personal turmoil, familial dynamics, and cultural fascination with the occult, leaving listeners to ponder the true nature of Ronald's ordeal.

Elena [74:26]: "That's really cool."

Whether viewed as a genuine case of demonic possession or as a manifestation of deep-seated psychological issues, Ronald Hunkler's story remains a pivotal chapter in America's supernatural lore, continually intriguing true crime and paranormal enthusiasts alike.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ash [12:01]: "They were a pair of connivers, and they had their act down."
• Elena [33:27]: "I am obsessed with the word diabolical."
• Ash [52:33]: "And I think that that's, like, something wrong."

---

This summary captures the essence of Episode 662, providing an in-depth overview of the discussions and key points covered by Ash and Elena, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

Transcript

[Ash]

Hey, weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait. Try Wondery. Today you can join Wonder plus in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a morbid network podcast. Let Audible expand your life by listening. Explore over 1 million audiobooks and exclusive Audible originals that will inspire and motivate you all in one easy app. Tap into your well being with advice and insight from leading professionals and experts on better health, relationships, career, finance, investing and even more. Maybe you want to kick a bad habit or start a good one. Recently I listened to so Thirsty, which was really good. I like how the narrator went between the two characters voices. That was really fun. And then I just started listening to God of the Woods. So good. Get advice and insight from leading professionals and experts on health, relationships, career, finance, investing and more. There's so much opportunity to learn and more to imagine when you listen. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.commorbid Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Ryan Reynolds]

With a message for everyone paying big.

[Ash]

Wireless way too much.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint.

[Ash]

You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Of course, if you enjoy overpaying.

[Ash]

No judgments.

[Ryan Reynolds]

But that's weird.

[Ash]

Okay, one judgment.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Anyway, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] hey, weirdos.

[Ash]

My name is Ash. I'm Elena. And this is more.

[Elena]

You sounded like you were hosting a show like Delilah.

[Ash]

Oh my God. Thank you. Hey. Hey out there.

[Elena]

Everybody out there.

[Ash]

You single ladies.

[Elena]

This is Ash.

[Ash]

This one goes out to all my queens. I don't know all my queens now that I just started sounding like Trixie and Katya and they're like doing a bit. I like it. May I please have bread?

[Elena]

Bread. What's going on?

[Ash]

I'm in a silly, goofy, funny LOL mood.

[Elena]

Me too. Yeah, I'm feeling it.

[Ash]

Good.

[Elena]

I'm feeling it. We got some mini Cadbury creme eggs in this.

[Ash]

I just ate two of them.

[Elena]

I ate three. No, I ate two.

[Ash]

Oh, you're just trying to one up me with Cadbury I took a third one out. Okay.

[Elena]

But I have not yet ingested it.

[Ash]

Yeah, maybe you should chill out.

[Elena]

They're tiny.

[Ash]

They're baby.

[Elena]

No, you can do what you want. This is kind of a hot topic. Cream, Cadbury eggs. How do you guys feel about them? My husband thinks they're the most disgusting things. My husband also thinks that anytime I have them in the house, he gags and.

[Ash]

Oh, that's.

[Elena]

Can't handle it. If one of us will eat one, he will visibly gag.

[Ash]

Drew just does a little like. Like, with his nose.

[Elena]

See, My girls love them. Yeah.

[Ash]

Who doesn't?

[Elena]

My girls are correct.

[Ash]

It shouldn't be that hot of a topic.

[Elena]

No, it should not. But it is if you don't like them. Know what you guys think?

[Ash]

If you don't like them, you're just wrong.

[Elena]

Whoa. She said it. I didn't.

[Ash]

I said it.

[Elena]

Me. I'm here to. I'm here to tell you that your opinion matters, but she's telling.

[Ash]

Oh, wow. You're going to validate them in these streets. No, that's validating. It's wrong if you don't like them. What are the. There's another option. Is it caramel?

[Elena]

Yeah, the caramel.

[Ash]

So I like caramel, but I don't like those ones.

[Elena]

I'm okay with them, but it's not my.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's not my preference. Yeah, I don't really with them either, man. But I was going to tell you guys something. I thought of it this morning. I was, like, getting my coffee ready, and I was like, I'll say that on the show later.

[Elena]

I'll say that on the show.

[Ash]

I'll. I'll say that on the pod. And then we had such a whirlwind of a morning, and now I just have boats and hose stuck in my head. So.

[Elena]

That's true, because we got a couple of strep. Strep throat cases in my house. Because kids get sick. Calm down. I always get one person that's like, why are your kids sick?

[Ash]

Kids are always sick.

[Elena]

It's like, yep, kids are sick.

[Ash]

Said, no. Paranoid.

[Elena]

And also, it's not just kid. It is also John, who has strep throat.

[Ash]

Kid plus John.

[Elena]

So that child and John are kind of sticking together, and so they started calling themselves strep brothers.

[Ash]

But then it made boats and hoes get stuck in my head.

[Elena]

It did. So that's a whole thing.

[Ash]

Yeah. But, yeah, it's good that we're in a silly mood today because we're talking about something like moderately Silly.

[Elena]

Yeah. I mean, anytime we can take it in a place of exorcism or paranormal, it's. It's a different vibe.

[Ash]

Yeah, I would say it is a different.

[Elena]

We can come in. In a different angle.

[Ash]

Yeah, a silly, goofy.

[Elena]

Silly, goofy. It's kind. It's kind of a wonky angle.

[Ash]

Yes, in the best way. It's like curved.

[Elena]

Yeah, I like that.

[Ash]

All right, well, let's talk about the exorcism. Hello.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

I don't know what happened. I need an exorcism.

[Elena]

Hello?

[Ash]

All right. We're going to talk about the exorcism of one Roland Doe. So as long as the public has known about the exorcist, supposedly true origins, the character at the center of the story has always been known as Roland Doe, or sometimes Robbie Manheim, I think.

[Elena]

Manheim, Manheim, Mannheim.

[Ash]

Both are obviously pseudonyms to protect his actual identity. But in December 2021, the Skeptical Inquirer, a magazine devoted to scientific skepticism, revealed the identity of Roland Doe.

[Elena]

Hmm.

[Ash]

Can you believe that?

[Elena]

It's crazy.

[Ash]

Yeah. Well, they reasoned that he had passed away a year earlier, so there was, like, not really any need for anonymity anymore, I suppose, I guess. The identity of Roland Doe has been uncovered by an independent journalist. Two decades earlier it had been, but the reporter actually opted not to publish the name for legal reasons.

[Elena]

Probably smart.

[Ash]

So people knew who was for a little bit, but it was. It was kept on the DL.

[Elena]

Wow, that's shocking.

[Ash]

I know. It was a different time.

[Elena]

I was gonna say that would never happen now.

[Ash]

Well, exactly, because in the year of our LORT 2021, it got.

[Elena]

It got leaked.

[Ash]

It got leaked, yeah. So in 1999, though taken aback a little bit, a journalist named Mark Opsaznik, I believe, was writing an article on the possession for Strange magazine, which I prefer, when he interviewed Father Albert Hughes, one of the priests involved in the case.

[Elena]

Damn, that must have been gnarly.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. Can you imagine?

[Elena]

That'd be crazy.

[Ash]

Let's sit with that first.

[Elena]

Yeah, every. Like, let. Let's paint a picture. You get to sit down with the. With Father Albert Hughes, who was involved in the original case that inspired the exorcism.

[Ash]

That's a fucking exorcist. I mean, what did you say?

[Elena]

The exorcism.

[Ash]

Who inspired the exorcism?

[Elena]

The exorcism. That was in the exorcism.

[Ash]

Not a exorcism. The exorcist.

[Elena]

Like, that's a big moment. Yeah, just a weird moment, I would assume. Surreal.

[Ash]

Top 10.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In your life for sure. Well, according to Hughes, the boy who was exercised was from Cottage City, Maryland and he quote, went on to graduate from Gonzaga High and turned out fine. Anytime I say Gonzaga High, I just want to say Gorgonzola.

[Elena]

And you do that for a reason.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You don't even know what the reason is.

[Ash]

Tell me what it is.

[Elena]

John loves March Madness and he usually has me do a fake bracket with him. And I don't know anything about college basketball. I like regular, like higher basketball, whatever. NBA. I'm like, what is that called?

[Ash]

Big boy basketball.

[Elena]

Big boy basketball. But I don't know anything about college basketball. So I just pick based on what I think is a cool name. And Gonzaga reminded me of Gorgonza. Gorgonzola. And so now I only call Gonzaga Gorgonzola.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Elena]

We are probably. You might have heard it in subconsciously.

[Ash]

It's possible. And we're also just family.

[Elena]

It's true.

[Ash]

That proved it because he'll.

[Elena]

And he'll even do it now he's like, oh, Gorgonzola moved on to the next round.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Look at us. So connected Gonzaga. Well, with those facts and a few obtained, a few other facts obtained from his research, Opsaznik was able to determine the years that the boy was in high school. And after tracking down a copy of the 1954 Gorgonzola Gonzaga High school yearbook, he narrowed the pool of potential boys to a very small number. And after cross checking the list with the known attendees of St. James Church where Albert Hughes was a priest, he was left with just one name. Ronald Hunkler.

[Elena]

Ronald Hunkler.

[Ash]

Ronald Hunkler.

[Elena]

That's a cool name.

[Ash]

It is. I like it.

[Elena]

Hunkler.

[Ash]

Hunkler.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The story of the Roland Doe and the exorcist have been told and retold like a million gajillion times since the supposed possession occurred that it's become very, very difficult, if not almost impossible to tell all the facts from fictions.

[Elena]

Those are my favorite kind of paranormal stories.

[Ash]

They're the.

[Elena]

I don't, I don't want clear facts and fiction.

[Ash]

Frankly, it's most paranormal stories. But then the popularity of the movie that came out made the already sensational story even more sensational with obviously aspects played up to promote the supernatural details of the story.

[Elena]

Oh yeah.

[Ash]

So facts about Ronald and his life before and after the exorcism are sparse and a little difficult to verify. But here's what we do know. Ronald Edwin Hunkler was born 6-1-1935.

[Elena]

Hey, that is my wedding anniversary.

[Ash]

And the day that one Marilyn Monroe passed away.

[Elena]

It's true.

[Ash]

I didn't mean to do that. Yes. It was in Cottage City, Maryland, that he was born to Edwin and Odell Hunkler. Isn't Odell a cool name?

[Elena]

It is a cool name. I also love the name Edwin.

[Ash]

I do, too.

[Elena]

I think that's a really cute name.

[Ash]

That was Ronald's middle name and his father's name.

[Elena]

Love it.

[Ash]

So his father, Edwin, worked for the federal government, and Odell, his mother, was a homemaker. Edwin was very fortunate in that he had a stable job during the peak of the Great Depression, but the pay was relatively low, and the family definite definitely struggled financially a lot of the time. And this struggle became even greater a few years after Ronald's birth when Odell's mother moved into their house, which obviously put in, you know, kind of an additional strain. Yeah, more mouths to feed, more resources being used, for sure. Sitting about one mile outside the northeast border of Washington, D.C. cottage City was and still is a pretty suburban area populated mostly by government employees like Edwin Hunkler was, according to Alvin kg, one of Ronald's childhood friends. Ronald, quote, had friends, but he was, in a sense, a little bit of a lo. He was somewhat sedentary, somewhat quiet, as his parents were in his younger years. Ronald did have a best friend. For the purposes of this story, we're going to call him John.

[Elena]

Love that name.

[Ash]

We don't really. You do.

[Elena]

I do.

[Ash]

That's crazy. We don't really know, like, if his name was John or not. So we're just gonna call him that.

[Elena]

John.

[Ash]

John. According to John's brother J.C. these two paired up and were virtually inseparable. They were loners who found each other and they caused a lot of mischief. There was a close relationship there. A very close relationship.

[Elena]

Good for them.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Loners causing mischief.

[Ash]

Let's go.

[Elena]

What's better?

[Ash]

It's kind of like what we do. Yeah, but we're not really loners.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

Sort of. I don't know. According to jc, when the stories about a possessed boy began making their way around town, he immediately thought of Roland and John. Ronald and John.

[Elena]

That's. That sucks that they used essentially the same name.

[Ash]

No, it does. And let me tell you, it me up the entire time I was reading about this and writing about it.

[Elena]

Ronald.

[Ash]

If I say the wrong name, I'm gonna do my best to say Ronald the entire time because that is his name. But if I fuck up, just, like, laugh with me. Okay. Yeah.

[Elena]

Because no matter what, that's. The. Whatever name is used is a name that he was referred to as.

[Ash]

Yeah. Ronald or Roland.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I'm doing my best to say Ronald.

[Elena]

But, like, imagine trying to save someone's identity, and you use essentially the same name.

[Ash]

You literally just switch three letters. Yeah. Like, that's fake.

[Elena]

Come on.

[Ash]

And if you have dyslexia, the.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's true.

[Ash]

That's not cool.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

But J.C. said you had these two mischief makers that had a strong tendency to take advantage of people who were weaker than themselves.

[Elena]

That's not good.

[Ash]

They were a pair of connivers, and they had their act down. They were trying to outdo each other. So he's like, possessed boy. Got something to do with the two of them.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, if J.C. remembered Ronald as a mischievous troublemaker, John, who was actually his friend himself, described Ronald in a lot more of extreme terms.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

According to John, Ronald's home life was anything but typical for a boy in the 1940s. He said Ronald was, quote, smothered by his obsessively religious mother and grandmother, who had deep interest in spiritualism and Ouija boards, shunned by his classmates at school, prone to traumas and even violent outbursts, and exhibited cruel and, at times, even sadistic behavior toward other children and even animals.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Yeah. So there's a lot going on with his. And when it came to his father's influence Ron Ronald, both J.C. and John remembered Edwin Hunkler as a man who was physically present in the home, but emotionally absent anywhere else at the time, which was kind of common, I was.

[Elena]

Gonna say, of the time. That's not shocking.

[Ash]

Yeah. But I think when you have all those other things at play, it's kind of good to it.

[Elena]

It was never good.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

Nobody came out of that in a great way.

[Ash]

Unscathed. Yeah. JC Said of the supposed paranormal activity, I think he could see what was going on, which is why he's never mentioned talking about Edwin.

[Elena]

Interesting.

[Ash]

Yeah. Now, since the story broke in the papers, and especially since the release of the book and then the movie, John really tried to distance himself from Ronald and avoid any association with the legend, which I can understand.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In an interview in 1999, he said, I've never said his name in front of anyone, not even my wife.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ash]

Yeah. In fact, while nearly everyone remembered John and Ronald as inseparable best friends, even his own brother, John himself wouldn't have actually described it in such intimate terms. He said, we were playmates and classmates. People ask what he was like, back then. And I can tell you that he was never what you would call a normal child. He was an only child and kind of spoiled. And he was a mean bastard.

[Elena]

He was a mean bastard.

[Ash]

I think it sounds like John just kind of put up with him for a while and then even he was like, fuck off.

[Elena]

I feel like everyone has at least had like, some interaction with a person like that as they were growing up where you were just like, you're kind of a dumb. Like, why am I hanging out with you? It's like a friend, but you just, like, do.

[Ash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Elena]

I feel like that's just one of those.

[Ash]

It's like, then you move to, like, a new school. Like, you. You move up a grade and you kind of, like, branch out a little more. And you're like, why the. Was I friends with.

[Elena]

Yeah, you kind of float apart. Yeah, for sure.

[Ash]

So don't feel bad if you were friends with it.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. I can think of exactly who I used to hang out with. That was kind of.

[Ash]

Yeah. That.

[Elena]

I look back and I'm like, why did I put myself through that? Yeah.

[Ash]

She was an. Well, as an illustration of Ronald's. Ronald's behavior, John remembered a story about a stray dog in the neighborhood. It's okay.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

That seemed to take a liking to Ronald and vice versa. They actually liked each other. But apparently he said, this dog was mean and nobody ever knew who owned it. It just came out of nowhere.

[Elena]

No dog is mean.

[Ash]

He was a little mean.

[Elena]

He's not mean.

[Ash]

He doesn't mean to be.

[Elena]

He was treated badly, I bet.

[Ash]

Yeah, probably.

[Elena]

No dog comes out mean.

[Ash]

You're right. And they all go to heaven. Yeah, well. And this is John's words. He said, well, Ronald basically adopted that dog. That dog really was his best, not me. One time he called me up and told me to come over. And I never really trusted him because he was sneaky and a real mean little bastard. I was going over there and he was looking out from the basement window. And when I got to his house, I heard the back porch door slam. And I knew right away what he'd done. He'd done this sort of thing many times before to different kids. I started running like hell because he'd sick that dog on me. When I got. When I got home, he called me up and he was laughing like hell. That's the kind of person he was.

[Elena]

I mean, that's pretty funny.

[Ash]

It's a little silly, but also, that's fucked up. A dog could have ate his Face Off.

[Elena]

That's like super 1940s behavior though. I feel.

[Ash]

I think I've seen that in like several.

[Elena]

Like, I think I've seen that. I feel like that's very. Like, I'm just bored.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I'm gonna stick my bead dog on it 100%.

[Ash]

But it's supposed to be his best friend.

[Elena]

That's the shit you do to your best friend though.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You know, John.

[Ash]

John didn't like it.

[Elena]

I don't know. I feel like we're in the northeast maybe. We just.

[Ash]

I know that's actually.

[Elena]

I'm like, that's just roasting somebody. Love.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You know?

[Ash]

Yeah. No, that's honestly so true. I remember one time I had a play date with somebody who I thought was like my best friend. And it was like the middle of winter and we were playing outside and they just locked me outside.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's just, you know, that's just somebody you love.

[Ash]

We were still besties after all.

[Elena]

Of course you were.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Cuz that's love. That's what that is.

[Ash]

New England is wild.

[Elena]

We're different.

[Ash]

We are so. But John. John didn't like that. So people who knew Ronald as a child paint a picture of a pretty lonely boy overall, it sounds like. Also, you know, with pretty bad social skills since he's sick and his do people.

[Elena]

Yeah, that is pretty rough.

[Ash]

And you know, obviously this is a great example of it. A tendency to behave in cruel, if not outright sadistic ways.

[Elena]

Which is scary.

[Ash]

Cuz while we can laugh a little bit. That is a up thing to do.

[Elena]

It is a up thing to do.

[Ash]

Especially knowing that the dog is mean.

[Elena]

Well, that's the thing. I don't. All I'm hearing is that the dog was mean. It's like. I don't know what that means.

[Ash]

Yeah, well, it's not only mean to like the friend, it's mean to the dog. You should put the dog in that position.

[Elena]

That's the thing. Cuz, I mean, again, things were different in the 1940s. Now you do that, that dog so much as touches that person, you're gonna have to put that dog down. And that's your fault.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly.

[Elena]

And that's fucked up because that dog's just doing what they think is gonna make you happy.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

And that's all dogs wanna do.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

But the cruel and sadistic stuff is like a different. Because again, we're talking about like roast your friends, roast the people you like.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like these two silly things.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Cruel and sadistic is like A totally different.

[Ash]

Yeah, don't do that.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And again, people said that he was like, mean to other animals and stuff like that.

[Elena]

As soon as you said that, I.

[Ash]

Got a red flag, like what we're talking about. Unfortunately, like I said, like, there's limited information, so we don't have specific examples.

[Elena]

Like what those cruel and sadistic things.

[Ash]

Are, but we know that they happened. Or yeah, people said they did at least. But there was at least one person in Ronald's life who he really, truly bonded with and somebody who he was willing to let his guard down around, and it was his father's sister Matilda, who was his Aunt Tilly.

[Elena]

Oh, that's really cute.

[Ash]

I know. They had a really cute relationship. I think in the stories, the documentaries and the movies that have been made since the original event, there's always a great deal made about Aunt Tilly and especially her role as the person who introduced Ronald to the occult. But damn, Aunt Tilly, she might have. But again, there's a lot more fiction surrounding aspects of the story than facts. So we don't know. But what is true is that Aunt Tilly lived in St. Louis and she visited her brother and his family a lot. And during her visit, she always made time for Ronald. They really like to hang out together.

[Elena]

That's some good aunt shit.

[Ash]

It is.

[Ryan Reynolds]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. You know, when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself, talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start Talkspace. Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus, Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist. Today at talkspace.com save $80 with code [e-mail] everyone has that friend who seems.

[Ash]

Kind of perfect for Patty. That friend was Tessie Ray. Until one Day.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I texted her, and she was not.

[Ash]

Getting the text, so I went to Instagram. She has no Instagram anymore.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And Facebook.

[Ash]

No Facebook anymore. Desiree was gone. And there was one person who knew the answer.

[Elena]

I am a spiritual person, a magical person, a witch.

[Ash]

A gorgeous Brazilian influencer called Kat Torres, but who was hiding a secret from wandering. Based on my smash hit podcast, from Brazil comes a new series, Don't Cross Cat, about a search that led me to a mystery in a Texas suburb. I'm calling to check on the two.

[Elena]

Missing Brazilian girls, maybe get some undercover crew there.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The family are freaking out.

[Elena]

They are locked.

[Ash]

I'm Chico Felitti. You can listen to Don't Cross Cat on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Author Thomas Allen wrote, aunt Tilly seems to have treated Ronald more like a special friend than as a nephew. Oh, that reads a little creepy. I just want to be clear. She like it. It's not creepy.

[Elena]

It's not creepy.

[Ash]

Like, it was just a cute relationship.

[Elena]

It's like she. She paid. She. She might have seen, too, that he was a little off. Off. Yeah. And, like, he was a little, like, socially strange and, like, a little bit of a loner. And so she was like, I'm gonna just, you know, make sure that I pay attention to him.

[Ash]

And I think she even saw that her brother probably wasn't super present in her nephew's life. And, like, he was struggling at school. The adults around him didn't pay a lot of attention to him other than his mom, like, smothering him.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Which is not the attention that you want.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

So she was like, let me just, like, be a normal person in your life.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But I feel like you hear special friend, and that automatically reads creepy.

[Elena]

Like, we're. We're in a place now in the world where special friend with an adult is no bueno. No.

[Ash]

Yeah. So I just wanted to be, you.

[Elena]

Know, thank you for clearing up on Tilly's name.

[Ash]

Yeah, I had to. That's my girl.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So given his inability to form bonds with children his own age and the fact that he, you know, treated his peers pretty shittily, most of Ronald's an effect. Most of Ronald's time was spent with the adults in his life. And like I was just saying, most of them typically just ignored him or treated him like a nuisance. So in that case, it makes sense why he was drawn so much to somebody like his aunt Tilly.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

She was said to be outgoing, outspoken, and pretty eccentric in an era where Most people were conservative and respectable and, you know, buttoned up.

[Elena]

So she probably sees a little bit of something in them. You know what I mean? Like, she's a little different, but she's like, I think you just need to be, like, steered in the right direction.

[Ash]

Yeah, we gotta celebrate our differences.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So, like Ronald's mother and grandmother, Tilly was also interested in spiritualism. And she introduced Ronald to the Ouija board, which they used together to try to contact the spirit world.

[Elena]

I'm kind of obsessed with all of this.

[Ash]

I'm also pretty obsessed with this.

[Elena]

Like, I do also love that the mom and grandmother are super into spiritualism in the Ouija board. I'm like, wow.

[Ash]

It's funny, too, because the mom was, like, super religious, but she also had an interest in that side of things.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's very interesting.

[Ash]

Yeah. Nobody really knows how much Ronald believed in his aunt's ability to talk to the dead through the Ouija board or if he really bought into any of the beliefs. But according to Thomas Allen, his interest in the board was at least strong enough for him to engage with it even when Tilly wasn't visiting. So he was. He was using that Ouija board.

[Elena]

He was into it.

[Ash]

And it wasn't just the spirit board that Tilly believed in. She was also a firm believer in spirit rapping, which is the belief that spirits can communicate with the living by, like, knocking on walls, floors, anyhow. Oh, yes. Some people think it's debunked. I don't.

[Elena]

I feel like it's a hard one to debunk, like, fully.

[Ash]

Yeah, I agree. You know, and, like, we've heard. We've heard weird topping in this room before. We have, and we've never found the source.

[Elena]

Like, you can debunk certain instances of it.

[Ash]

Yes, for sure, but not overall.

[Elena]

A blanket debunkment doesn't feel right here.

[Ash]

Thank you. You're welcome. So, considering everything that was going on, it would definitely be fair to say that Ronald was struggling emotionally before his possession and that he didn't have a lot of relationships where he felt supported.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And throughout a lot of the 20th century, expectations of gender were rigid when it came to boys and young men, and especially boys and young men asking for help when it comes to, like, emotional problems. That would have been super unusual.

[Elena]

And that's why they just acted out.

[Ash]

Exactly. That's exactly my point here. So let's kind of get into it now. As far as anybody can tell, Ronald Hunkler's paranormal experience began in early January. 1949, about five months into his eighth grade year, his behavior was starting to become a problem at school, and his bullying behavior wasn't giving him any friends. And things finally came to a head that winter when one day just in the middle of class, a supposedly paranormal experience made him the center of everybody's attention. Oh, his friend John remembered he was sitting in a chair, and it was one of those deals with one arm attached. And it looked like he was shaking the desk. The desk was shaking and vibrating extremely fast. And I remember the teacher yelling at him to stop it. And I remember he kind of yelled, I'm not doing it. And they took him out of class, and that was the last I ever saw of him at school.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

Yeah. Now what? Yeah. In later tellings of the story, particularly the version told in Thomas Allen's book Possession, the event in the classroom was a genuine poltergeist phenomenon where the desk was moving free of human hands, like he wasn't doing it at all. But John, who was in that class, said, nah, the desk certainly did not move around the room like that book said. It was just shaking.

[Elena]

All right. I mean, either way.

[Ash]

Yeah, Two. Two versions of that story. Regardless of what was causing the commotion, the disruption with the desk was the last straw for the teachers and the administrators at the high school. And Ronald was asked to not return. So there was definitely. There was definitely stuff leading up to this.

[Elena]

Yeah, there had to be a lot of shit leading up to this.

[Ash]

I think probably the bullying was, like, a bigger thing.

[Elena]

That's a big deal.

[Ash]

And then, like, he definitely sounds like he was disruptive a lot. Yeah.

[Elena]

If you're being a bully to everyone and treating everyone like shit.

[Ash]

Sorry.

[Elena]

I just almost yawned while I was saying that.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Elena]

Not because this is boring, just because sleep. It's tired.

[Ash]

But I said it's tired. It's tired. See, it's tired over there.

[Elena]

This is tired. But, yeah, like, if you're bullying people, being disruptive, you're being disruptive. You're being, like, sadistic to people. Like, the fact that they use the word sadistic quite often means he's doing some shit.

[Ash]

And also, it was a lot easier to throw people out of school.

[Elena]

It's true. And it's like, if they're telling him to stop and he's like, I'm not doing it. And he just keeps doing, what do.

[Ash]

You get out of my class?

[Elena]

It's like, of course.

[Ash]

But what sucks is that if it, like, was legitimate, then he just got.

[Elena]

Kicked out because of a Ghost?

[Ash]

Yeah. Like, that's kind of bullshit, you know? Yeah.

[Elena]

Thanks a lot, spirit.

[Ash]

Thanks a lot, spirit. Well, interestingly, when the incident was reported to the priest months later, it was reported that Ronald, quote, did not continue his attendance out of embarrassment. So there's two stories there now. The next major event came a few days later on January 15th. Ronald and his grandmother were at home in his grandmother's room, and they started hearing a dripping noise followed by scratching sounds coming from within the walls and the ceiling.

[Elena]

I'd be like, we have mice.

[Ash]

Until without warning, a framed picture of Jesus Christ began shaking quote. I had to say it.

[Elena]

A framed picture of Jesus Christ.

[Ash]

It's a big deal.

[Elena]

Jesus Christ himself.

[Ash]

Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, Jesuit Christ. It started shaking, quote, as if the wall back of it had been bumped.

[Elena]

So I'm just picturing. I can't help it. Maybe that's asleep. I haven't got a lot of sleep. I'm picturing a daemon in the wall, saying. And I'm picturing him just booty bump in the wall.

[Ash]

Like he knows Jesus Christ is in the photo.

[Elena]

Boom. Yeah. Jesus Christ is in that photo.

[Ash]

Like he knows.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like he's just like, dancing to his own beat behind the wall, and he's just booty bumping the wall every now and then.

[Ash]

I like the image that conjures.

[Elena]

Big booty demon.

[Ash]

Big booty demon, let away. Shake it.

[Elena]

A bodacious demon in the wall.

[Ash]

It's gonna be like a beanie bumpin. Mario's nickname for Brie on TikTok. Or for Brynn on TikTok. Yes, so true. Well, that happened. Big booty demon knock in pictures of Big booty demon or mice knock in pictures of big booty mice of Jesus Christ off the wall.

[Elena]

I don't know why when you say it, it's like so intense.

[Ash]

Because I did it on purpose. Cause it important. It is important. In the week or so, following the scratching and the dripping sounds, the inexplicable noises, noises became a nightly event in the Hunkler house, usually from like 7pm to midnight.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's when he's getting his Ray Vaughn that.

[Ash]

First you pre game, then, yeah, you rage.

[Elena]

Then he's really into it.

[Ash]

Yeah, he's. He's. He starts like a little bit slowly. Yeah. He takes a couple shots at the pre game, but once he gets that feeling, it's.

[Elena]

It's over. It's over. The night's going comes on and that's it.

[Ash]

He says, let's go, girl. He says, let's Go, Hunkler. Now, it's unclear what type of activity was experienced during these events for the humans, but most accounts mention Ronald's reports of hearing squeaking shoes on his bed for six nights in a row.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ash]

So now the demon has some new sneakers that he's breaking in on Ronald's bed, some new Nike high tops. Now, it's worth noting that none of the accounts mention which of the family members heard these sounds. But after about a week of Ronald's complaints, the sounds did finally become audible to the other members of the family, aside from just Ronald. But the noise was, quote, only heard at night when the boy went to bed.

[Elena]

Yeah, because that's when you go. That's when you go crazy.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That's your time.

[Ash]

I mean, if a demon is gonna start partying, it's definitely gonna be when the youngest kid goes to bed.

[Elena]

Of course.

[Ash]

Duh.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That's how Demon tree works.

[Elena]

Absolutely. It does. Read the handbook.

[Ash]

Read a book. Exactly. Thank you. By the end of the week, though, Ronald's mother and grandmother had accepted Ronald's claims as fact, and they, too, started having paranormal experiences.

[Elena]

Good for them.

[Ash]

Good for them. That was a crazy reaction.

[Elena]

Let's go, girls.

[Ash]

He said. Hell, yeah, Nana. In one instance, both women were laying down on Ronald's bed, and they, quote, heard something coming toward them similar to the rhythm of marching feet and the beat of drums. This is all adding up that seemed to travel the length of the mattress and back again.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

Conga line.

[Elena]

All I can think of is the, like, the new Gaga song Abracadabra.

[Ash]

And it's like, I love it.

[Elena]

And he's just, like, voguing.

[Ash]

Oh, my God, the demon.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

I love it. Voguing and throwing pictures of Jesus Christ around life. Now, the next significant event came about a week later, on January 26, when Aunt Tilly died. No. Aunt Tilly died from complications of multiple sclerosis at age 54.

[Elena]

Oh, she's young.

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

Oh, an Ms. That's tough.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That's awful. Poor Aunt Tilly.

[Ash]

I know. Now, given the special relationship that Ronald had with his aunt, Tilly's death had to have been a devastating event, for. Not him, of course. And the entire family.

[Elena]

Oh, hell, yeah.

[Ash]

Now, believing that Tilly's death might have had something to do with the events happening in the house, Ronald's mother held a seance with the Ouija board a few nights later, in an attempt to contact Tilly's spirit.

[Elena]

I. That sounds awesome.

[Ash]

I'm obsessed.

[Elena]

Like, that's awesome. Yeah, she's just like, let's seance about it.

[Ash]

I think it's rad.

[Elena]

Like, what a cool mom.

[Ash]

And I think the grandma probably went too, because she was into spiritualistic. I would have loved to grow up in this house.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's pretty cool.

[Ash]

Now, according to her testimony provided to Father Raymond Bishop, Odell called out to the spirit and asked, if you are Aunt Tilly, knock three times. Supposedly, Ronald's grandmother said she could feel waves of air rushing over her face and head. And then all three participants heard a faint knock three times. And Odell called out, if you are Tilly, tell me positively by knocking four times. At which point she heard four distinct knocks, followed by a claw scratching on Ronald's mat. On Roland's mattress. Ronald's mattress. You can keep that all in because he has 47 names.

[Elena]

That's scary.

[Ash]

I don't like the claw. Well, the other thing is, you could ask a spirit who they are, and you could say, are you Aunt Tilly? And they could say, yeah, yeah, of course I am. Yeah, it me.

[Elena]

That's the thing. Like, you think a demon's gonna be.

[Ash]

Like, ah, no, caught me.

[Elena]

That's not my name.

[Ash]

It's me, Beelzebub.

[Elena]

I can only insert my name.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

Like, I didn't know they lied.

[Ash]

Like, you're just giving him a cloak.

[Elena]

I don't think that he's, like, totally opposed to lying.

[Ash]

No, definitely not. Yeah, so I don't think it's on Tilly. I just wanted to make that clear. But after the seance, the story starts to get a little hazy and a little inconsistent. According to Marco Psasnik, Odell began, quote, alternating her beliefs that the problems with her son either were the work of the devil or their departed relative. She, like, couldn't make her mind up.

[Elena]

Both of those sound like bad choices.

[Ash]

A stretch.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So basically, she thought that either the house was being haunted by the spirit of Aunt Tilly or that some sort of demonic entity had attached itself to Ronald and he was now harassing the family. But Odell couldn't quite settle on which of the two she believed the devil. I mean, there's a lot going on. So it's either the devil or Aunt Tilly or Aunt Tilly. And now we need Jesus Christ.

[Elena]

You need Jesus Christ to intervene.

[Ash]

You need your lort and savior. Now, whatever the case, this is the point where, according to skeptic Joe Nichol, quote, the case, which began as a seeming poltergeist outbreak, soon advanced to one of alleged spirit Communication to one of supposed diabolic possession.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Which I love.

[Elena]

I am obsessed with the word diabolical.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I describe many things as diabolical.

[Ash]

Same.

[Elena]

And now my kids have started to call things diabolical.

[Ash]

I haven't heard that yet. And I can't wait for the moment that I do.

[Elena]

You were playing Mario Kart last night and one of them said that Daisy is diabolical.

[Ash]

Daisy is diabolical. That's. I love when they use things.

[Elena]

Perfect. And I was like, agreed.

[Ash]

Is she like the village girl?

[Elena]

No, she's the redhead princess.

[Ash]

Oh, fuck Daisy.

[Elena]

But they saw her, a statue of her dancing with Mario and they were very angry for Princess Peach.

[Ash]

Oh, I don't like Princess Peach either.

[Elena]

Yeah, I don't mind her.

[Ash]

She makes me really mad at Mario. Party. I just wanted to say that. Out the village girl. Yeah.

[Elena]

The villagers are wild.

[Ash]

I don't like them.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

Anyway, back to the story.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In the early days of the phenomenon, the Hunklers reported experiences that would become common in later claims of poltergeist activity, including an instance where a parent in Orange quote flew across the room where Ronald was standing.

[Elena]

Eat your fruit.

[Ash]

Eat your fruit, he said. Have a smoothie. Food and beverages were knocked from tables and counters. Other objects seemed to fly off the shelves. And even a Bible was hurled from a shelf and fell right at Ronald's feet.

[Elena]

Read the Bible.

[Ash]

Read it and weep. Not willing to rule out the possibility that her son was possessed, of course, Odell reached out to Reverend Luther Schultz, the minister and the family at the family's Lutheran church. She detailed what had been happening in the home and explained that she was very worried that Ronald was, quote, the victim of an evil ghost and wondered if it could be Aunt Tilly. An evil ghost, like, that's not fair. Just because you don't like your sister in law doesn't make her evil.

[Elena]

No. And it. I don't know. Evil ghosts don't feel real. Like a thing.

[Ash]

Yeah. No. It's either a demon or not. Yeah. Or just a regular ghost.

[Elena]

It's a ghost.

[Ash]

Yeah. Agreed. Well, in order to help guide the family, Rev. Scholes determined he needed to see the phenomenon for himself. And so he arranged for Ronald to spend the night at his home. Don't love that. Ronald arrived at the parsonage a little after 9:30pm excuse me, a little before 9:30pm on the evening of February 17th. And he stayed until a little after 9:00am the next morning. According to the reverend, that evening he heard scratching noises at various points throughout the night and witnessed, quote, bed vibrations. A chair in which Roland Ronald. Roland Ronald sat tipping over. And the movement. The movement of a pallet of blank. It's the Roland Ronald that's working. And the movement of a palette of blankets upon which Roland sat.

[Elena]

A palette of blankets. Is he like princess and the pee?

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

They just put them on a bunch of blankets.

[Ash]

Yes. This obviously.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Sitting there and it moved. Demonic. The devil.

[Elena]

All right, he's just staying at your house. Well, that all happens.

[Ash]

Yeah, I don't like that. Well, a little over a week after Ronald spent the night at the reverend's home, the phenomenon in the Hunkler house escalated and became more physical. Beginning on the night of February 26th and occurring four nights in a row, he complained to his parents that something had attacked him in the night and showed them scratch marks all over his body that. That seemed to have been made by claws.

[Elena]

Dang.

[Ash]

Like the noises and the other various phenomena. Father Bishop's diary indicates that the only other person to have seen the marks on Ronald's body at the time were his mother.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

But like they're there.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So for more than a month, the Hunkler family had been experiencing this crazy in their home. You know, it wasn't exactly dangerous, but it was disruptive. Especially for 13 year old Ronald at the time.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Who, you know, was the focus of the activity.

[Elena]

That's very unfortunate. Esque.

[Ash]

So it's very puberty esque. But there are studies that. Yeah, that happens.

[Elena]

I know, we've seen it. It's in different cases.

[Ash]

Remember that one that we did a couple months ago?

[Elena]

That's the one that made me think of then.

[Ash]

That one was like crazy.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like I. I believe that puberty's wild. Puberty. For so many reasons. In the early hours of December 4, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of midtown Manhattan.

[Elena]

This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him.

[Ash]

We're talking about the CEO of the.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Biggest private health insurance corporation in the world.

[Ash]

And the suspect he has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was targeted, premeditated.

[D]

Admit to sow terror.

[Ash]

I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi. Produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever. He's awoken the people to a true issue.

[Elena]

Finally. Maybe this would lead rich and powerful.

[Ash]

People to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple podcasts.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Some people get a wild haircut or book a spontaneous trip when life throws them a curveball. But Molly, well, she dove headfirst into a world of no strings attached sex, secret rendezvous, forbidden affairs and unforgettable adventures. And together we tell every juicy detail in Dying for Sex, Wondery's award winning podcast that's now streaming on a TV near you, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate. And to top it off, we're dropping brand new bonus episodes where I sit down with the cast to spill all the spicy secrets, desire, friendship, self discovery and the ultimate bucket list of pleasures. This is a story that had everyone talking. Listen to the original Dying for Sex and brand new episodes on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge the original series before anyone else and completely ad free on Wondri.

[Ash]

But it is interesting that poltergeist activity kind of kick it up.

[Elena]

Link up to that.

[Ash]

Well, and you know, it's causing a lot of issues for him. He got kicked out of school. It removed a lot of. I mean, he didn't have like a lot of social support. But what social support he did have at school was now gone. Yeah, outside of the home. But fortunately, Odell Hunkler did get the assistance that she was hoping for from the church. But that assistance added even more people to the story whose version of events would further complicate an already convoluted story.

[Elena]

Love that.

[Ash]

Making it even more difficult to tell fact from fiction.

[Elena]

Let's go.

[Ash]

Which to some people is like womp womp. To me that's like awesome.

[Elena]

No, add more to this.

[Ash]

Give me more. Give me more. Crazy. So the events that comprise the first month of Ronald's supernatural experience were based a lot on Odell and Ronald's reports to Father Bishop, with some additional statements from one or two other witnesses. They were pretty benign to a point until the introduction of those claw marks on Ronald's body that obviously indicated that the problem was getting a lot worse. And for Odell, who had previously been unsure about the origin of her son's problem, it was now very clear that he was the victim of an evil entity.

[Elena]

An evil demon, an evil onion.

[Ash]

Taken aback now, in late February, Odell consulted with Father Albert Hughes, the priest at St. James Catholic Church in nearby Mount Rayner. A different priest now. So Father Albert Hughes explained that he knew very little about demonic possession and even Less about exorcism, but he suggested that the family use blessed candles, holy water, and prayer to bless the home.

[Elena]

That sounds nice.

[Ash]

It does. I don't know why I went southern.

[Elena]

But I just wanted to. With this kind of stuff, you just do.

[Ash]

In the days that followed, Odell did as Hugh suggested. She sprinkled holy water around the house. She prayed constantly, but very little seemed to change. At one point, she actually even tried to baptize Ronald, placing candles around his bed and saying prayers. And according to the diary account, the flames on the candles around the bed, quote, all began moving back and forth in unison. And Ronald, he responded with rage.

[Elena]

Oh, that's upsetting. Because when you first said that, all I can think of is the flames just being like, all just dancing together.

[Ash]

And abracadabra still playing.

[Elena]

It's always.

[Ash]

But then Roland is. Roland. Ronald is like, he's pissed.

[Elena]

That's. That's upsetting.

[Ash]

That actually hurt. I'm gonna take a sip.

[Elena]

My kids actually love the new Lady Gaga song.

[Ash]

As they should.

[Elena]

Yeah, all of them love it.

[Ash]

I love that for them. Now, Father Bishop's diary indicates that this behavior resulted in Ronald actually being admitted for a three day stay at University Hospital. Though there aren't really additional details about that hospitalization or the outcome.

[Elena]

They said you got ghosts in your.

[Ash]

Blood, but, like, that's him. Like, whatever he did, like, in response to being baptized landed him a three day hospital stint.

[Elena]

Sounds intense.

[Ash]

Super duper.

[Elena]

Sounds like it was more than just being like, raw.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But that's all I thought that I could do. I don't want to reenact anything and end up in the hospital myself.

[Elena]

And we've got, you know, we've got flames in here.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Lighting shit on fire.

[Ash]

I have a job to do. Yeah. So after Ronald's discharge from the hospital, the family took a trip to visit relatives in Missouri, where, according to Bishop, other members of the family also witnessed the markings on Ronald's skin. It's here that Father Raymond Bishop becomes involved for the first time. Really. He was a member of the clergy at St. Louis University. St. Louis. St. Louis. And the director of the school's Department of education. In later years, most of the information that informed both the legends about Ronald's story and actually the story of the Exorcist would come from this man's diary.

[Elena]

I love that.

[Ash]

It's awesome.

[Elena]

Something about that is so spooky and cool.

[Ash]

It's like heavy metal.

[Elena]

Yeah. It really is.

[Ash]

Like, I did a rock on.

[Elena]

She did. She was like heavy metal.

[Ash]

Heavy metal. Just to all of you.

[Elena]

Not regular metal.

[Ash]

No, heavy. That's why.

[Elena]

The heavy variety.

[Ash]

That's why I, like, really thrust my hand when I did it. Because if I. If it was just metal, I'd be like, metal. Like just a little. But this is like heavy metal.

[Elena]

Heavy metal.

[Ash]

So you have to thrust your hand. Thank you now. Anyways. According to Thomas Allen, one of Roland's, Ronald's extended family members, referred to as Elizabeth, was a student at St. Louis University. And after becoming concerned about Ronald's condition, she approached Raymond Bishop for advice. Advice like Albert Hughes, the other father, and virtually all clergy. At the time, Bishop knew very little about possession or the right of exorcism himself. But he still agreed to meet with the family to see what he could do to help. He lives to serve.

[Elena]

Yeah. I mean, go read up on exorcisms.

[Ash]

That's pretty much what he did.

[Elena]

That's what you can do.

[Ash]

He acknowledged that before he gave the family his thoughts on the situation, he needed time to, quote, think about what possession was and how it could be proved. I love that he's kind of like approaching it scientifically. He is.

[Elena]

Because he's like, I need to think on this.

[Ash]

I gotta. Let me. Give me some time to think.

[Elena]

Let me just quickly come up with a definition of possession first and then I will discover how to fix it.

[Ash]

I'll work on it.

[Elena]

I like that.

[Ash]

So Father Bishop met with the Hungler family for the first time on March 9, where he claimed to have witnessed the scratching on Ronald's body and actually saw the boy's mattress move. At the time, he kept his suspicions of any danger to himself, but later he would admit that he, quote, had sensed from the beginning that Robbie was threatened with possession.

[Elena]

He's like, I wasn't gonna tell these people, but. But I thought shit was gonna go down.

[Ash]

He said, I had an inkling I.

[Elena]

Wasn'T gonna give them a heads up.

[Ash]

But what am I to do?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So at the time, he told the Hunklers that he needed to consult with some other Jesuit priests and that he would get back to them asap.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Hopefully Robbie doesn't get, like, super duper possessed in the meantime.

[Elena]

Yeah, you just kind of.

[Ash]

Because right now it's just like a little threat of it. Like, it was like, on the precipice of possession.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You know, it wasn't quite there.

[Elena]

Possession is in the air.

[Ash]

Air, yes.

[Elena]

You know?

[Ash]

Yes. I feel like that'd be like a good name for a movie.

[Elena]

Possession in The Air.

[Ash]

Yeah, I like it.

[Elena]

I like that.

[Ash]

Maybe a band name. We'll. We'll workshop.

[Elena]

We're Possession in the Air. I kind of like that. Yeah.

[Ash]

Hello, Wisconsin. So it's not completely clear who Bishop spoke with and what he told them at all. Unclear things. But as Marco Upsasnik points out, this vagueness and ambiguity would become one of the hallmarks of Father Bishop's reporting. Which is a little problematic when you consider the fact that the bulk of the information about the exorcism did come from his reports. Yeah, problematic and fun.

[Elena]

Pretty awesome.

[Ash]

Obsessnik wrote. Bishop does not always make it clear who actually witnessed the events being described. He often fails to mention when the priests are in the room, when they're absent, and when the information comes second hand from the boy's mother. The possibility of fraudulent activity is neither considered nor investigated.

[Elena]

What he needed was a good editor. You know, just an editor to be like, you're not really giving us enough texture in these descriptions. Can you. Can you kind of like who else is in the room?

[Ash]

That's the thing. It's like. Like when they go back on Bravo shows and they, like the editors, give you the time stamps of the events that happened.

[Elena]

Important.

[Ash]

He needed something like that.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So regardless of how things played out behind the scenes, though, two days later, on March 11, Bishop, Father Bishop returned to the family. This time in the company of another key witness in this story, Father William Bodern.

[Elena]

So many fathers.

[Ash]

Lots of fathers. Daddies everywhere.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Around. That's inappropriate.

[Elena]

Horrifying.

[Ash]

Leave it in. Around 11pm at night, Ronald went to bed. I don't know, I just feel silly.

[Elena]

11Pm at night.

[Ash]

@ night. That's actually one of my biggest books. I know. It is. Shocked you said it. Maybe I'm almost possessed. Maybe. Around 11pm in the evening, Ronald went to bed. At which point the three men gathered around his bedside and Bowdern, you know, they had to wait until he was sleeping. Bowder. And read the Novena, which is the Catholic devotional prayer. It also could be the Novena. I didn't look it up. And reportedly blessed the boy with a quote piece of bone from the forearm of St. Francis Xavier and fixed a relic encrusted crucifix under the boy's pillow before leaving the room.

[Elena]

This is the most metal shit I've ever heard.

[Ash]

Why do you have a bone from the forearm of St. Francis Xavier? Boop.

[Elena]

Booping him with a bone.

[Ash]

Did he say that? That's okay for you to have? I don't know about that?

[Elena]

He's not here to say.

[Ash]

That's what I just assume.

[Elena]

They're assuming he's fine with it.

[Ash]

He's hard to say about assuming.

[Elena]

You know what, though? So far, he hasn't made a fuss. So they're not.

[Ash]

Maybe this is his fault. Fuss. Maybe this right here is his fuss.

[Elena]

This is how he fusses.

[Ash]

The fact that they just bless. They quote, unquote, blessed him with a piece of bone from the forearm of Mr. St. Francis Xavier, I don't know.

[Elena]

And put a relic encrusted crucifix under his pillow.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You can't make this up.

[Ash]

No. You literally can't. Real like you can't make that up. Well, a short time later, while the priests were sitting in the living room with the family, they heard a loud crash come from Ronald's room, Ronald Roland's room, and ran in to see what happened in the bedroom. They found that a large bookcase had slid across the room, a bench had been flipped over, and the crucifix that Father Baldurin had put under the pillow appeared to be moved to the edge of the bed.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Bow Duran also claimed that he witnessed the bed shaking when they entered the room. And it only came to a stop when Odell shouted, aunt Tilly, stop.

[Elena]

Here's my thought, though. I think there's two things at play here. I think there's a Damon who's trying. Who's like pushing over bookshelves and shit for sure. Pull that relic out, I think until he's shaking the bed to wake him up, to help get out of the room, maybe. So that. That's my view of this. I think Aunt Tilly is trying to let him know that shit's afoot.

[Ash]

I like to believe that Aunt Tilly just passed on. Yeah.

[Elena]

If that's. If they're shaking the bed and she yells until he stopped in the bed shaking stops, then that she was trying to wake him up.

[Ash]

I agree.

[Elena]

She was the one doing it.

[Ash]

I like it.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Well, the scene witnessed in Ronald's bedroom that night was enough to convince the priest that something had in fact possessed the boy. After a few nights spent weighing their options, the two men took their concerns to Archbishop Joseph Ritter. And not to be confused with John Ritter. No, this is Joseph ritter. I know, RIP. And on March 16, Bowdern was given permission to perform the rite of exorcism.

[Elena]

He got permission from the archdiocese, which usually doesn't happen. No, we're all.

[Ash]

Archdiocese is pretty stingy with their permission giving.

[Elena]

They don't just hand it out.

[Ash]

Interesting that they don't just hand it out, but they gave it to a man who, like, wasn't super familiar with exorcisms.

[Elena]

Yeah, they were like, you'll figure it out.

[Ash]

They were confident in his abilities.

[Elena]

Yeah, He. I mean, he said he was coming up with a definition.

[Ash]

It seems as though he did. That night, Bishop and Bowdern returned to the house, this time in the company of Bowdern's assistant, Father Walter Holloran, who becomes a bigger player later on and started what would ultimately be an almost month long process of attempting to exercise whatever evil entity had possessed Ronald Hunkler. Now, if you've ever seen an exorcism. Yeah. Picture that happening for a month. No, that's insane.

[Elena]

I don't have the stamina.

[Ash]

A lot of times they last like a couple hours or like a couple days, and even that is horrifying. A month.

[Elena]

A month.

[Ash]

Almost a month.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

For reasons that remain unclear throughout the process, Ronald would be moved back and forth multiple times between his aunt's home in a local rectory and Alexian Brothers Hospital in St. Louis.

[Elena]

Huh.

[Ash]

So he was, like, hospitalized sometimes during this. Now, after introducing the family to Father Halloran, Father Bodern wasted no time getting to work. You cannot waste time when you're exercising.

[Elena]

No. It's time.

[Ash]

Yeah. On the treadmill or in a religious way.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

So in Ronald Roland's bedroom, Bowdern started talking with Ronald Roland to, quote, examine his conscious and make an act of contrition before starting the right. Then, joined by the two other priests and several family members, the group gathered around Ronald's bed and started praying. According to Father, as they prayed, the mattress began to lift slightly off the bed and then lower back down. But he insisted that the family ignore the theatrics and continue praying.

[Elena]

Ain't no way I could ignore those theatrics.

[Ash]

I could not pray through that.

[Elena]

No way.

[Ash]

No know. For hours, the three priests recited the right in Latin while the family continued their prayer. And finally, the first cycle of the right had ended. And Father Baldur concluded by shouting, praesipio tb, which is I command thee. I love it. I don't know if I said it really well, but I did my best.

[Elena]

Priest yelling in Latin is one of the scariest things ever.

[Ash]

Yeah, I don't even like, like, you really shouldn't read the Latin.

[Elena]

I should not read the Latin.

[Ash]

You see what I did there?

[Elena]

I said that up.

[Ash]

But when he yelled that, Ronald screamed in what sounded like terrible pain.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

And as Father Bower was concerned, as far as he was concerned, Ronald's scream was evidence that he was indeed possessed and that the right was actually working.

[Elena]

Hell, yeah.

[Ash]

So the priest continued aggressively reciting that rite of exorcism as Ronald just writhed around uncomfortably on the bed.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

In his wild thrashing, he quickly kicked the blankets away, uncovering his body. And with his pajama top unbuttoned, the participants in the room watched as three red, long welts. Welts. Appeared on his chest as if something was attempting to cut its way out of him from the inside.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Yeah. Later, Father Bishop would describe the welts as, quote, marks raised up above the surface of the skin, similar to an engraving. Ooh. And Father Bonner, he paid no attention to the welts. He just carried on with his right.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

As more and more welt started appearing on Ronald's body, the more they recited, the more Ronald appeared to be in, like, immense pain. And soon the welts and scratches started producing faint lines of blood all over Ronald's legs, his stomach, and his back.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

Yeah. The longer the ritual dragged on, the more and more pain Ronald seemed to experience. At one point, one of the relatives in the room claimed that they saw the image of the devil. The devil. The devil himself appear on Ronald's thigh. Oh, they saw it in his journal. Bishop wrote. The arms were held above his head and seemed to be webbed, giving the hideous appearance of a bat. That.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

At other times in the evening.

[Elena]

Bats are awesome.

[Ash]

He's not saying they're not a hideous appearance. Well, he actually is. It is rude. You should think about his words.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

At other times in the evening, though, participants reported seeing words appear in the scratches on Ronald's body. People saw the words hell go and a large X on his thigh.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

And that was before the days of Twitter turning to X. Oh. So I don't know what that meant exactly. Now, after hours of the Latin ritual, the group finally broke for the night. Because everybody was really tired.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And Ronald appeared to fall into a deep sleep. But through the night, while still conscious, he would periodically slam his fists into the headboard above him or into his pillow. And the next morning, when Father Bodern asked what he was dreaming about, Ronald said he had been fighting a huge red devil. It felt slimy and was extremely powerful. And Dave said, that sounds like puberty. He said, how else would you describe puberty if not not slimy and extremely powerful? And I said, dave, that's a great point. Right? I said, I don't have an argument for you, sir. In the days and weeks that followed, both the exorcism and Ronald's behavior grew more and more aggressive and offensive.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

In one diary entry, Father Bowdern reports, from 12 midnight on, it was necessary to hold R during his fights with the spirit. Two men were necessary to pin him down on the bed. R Shouted threats of violence at them, but vulgar language was not used. Oh, that's good. Our spit at his opponents. Many times he used a strong arm whenever he could free himself. And his blows were beyond the ordinary strength of a boy. So he like.

[Elena]

They were like. He was violent, but he was never vulgar.

[Ash]

He was never vulgar.

[Elena]

It's important to know, it's important to.

[Ash]

Note, but he was also swole. He was packing a punch.

[Elena]

Swole beyond his years.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. Now, at times, Ronald would also speak in a, quote, diabolical high pitched voice, which, like, what is a diabolical high voice? Can you try it? Can you please try it?

[Elena]

So, like, we're talking like a demon.

[Ash]

High voice, Diabolical high pitched.

[Elena]

It's got to be like, do it. I'm trying to, like, think about.

[Ash]

She's getting ready. She did something with her teeth.

[Elena]

Because you have to, like, get in a snarly way. I think it's gotta be like that kinda.

[Ash]

I don't like it.

[Elena]

You gotta, like, show teeth when you do it, Mikey.

[Ash]

Daddy doesn't like it either. Mikey shook his head.

[Elena]

I mean, it's diabolical.

[Ash]

I'm just picturing like, I'll get two of my pretty. That's diabolical and high pitched.

[Elena]

Yeah, you know, thanks. I don't know. We weren't there.

[Ash]

We weren't there. And unfortunately, they don't have voice notes from them.

[Elena]

Unfortunately.

[D]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Lindsey Graham from the podcast American Historytellers. And if you're still reeling from Ash and Elena's episode on the Boston Molasses disaster and you want to dive even deeper, you're in luck. My show doesn't usually venture too far into the spooky or creepy, but we've dedicated two full episodes to uncovering fascinating details about this bizarre molasses catastrophe. From the company's negligence to the victim's harrowing stories, we explore how this strange event reshaped industrial safety laws and left an indelible mark on Boston's history. And the Boston Molasses disaster is just one of many fascinating stories waiting for you on American Historytellers. We take you to the events, the times, and the people that shaped our nation. And show you how our history affected them, their families, and affects you today. Follow American Historytellers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Wondery subscribers can listen to both American Historytellers and Morbid early and ad free. Start your free trial in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify today.

[Ash]

He also was said to be swinging his fists at the priests and other adults in the room. He also supposedly broke Father Halloran's nose.

[Elena]

Ooze.

[Ash]

I know. And then at other times, he would sit up normally in bed and just sing sweetly.

[Elena]

Oh, that's nice. He'd sit up and just go, abracadab.

[Ash]

Oh, that's great. He would also sad cry off and on. Oh. But then immediately his attitude would change and he'd start swearing. He did eventually start swearing and being vulgar. And he would also make masturbation gestures in order to embarrass the other people in the room. Room. Keep it together.

[Elena]

That's diabolical.

[Ash]

It truly is. Other times, he would spout Latin words and phrases to the surprise of his parents, who swore that Ronald did not know Latin and had never been exposed to that language before.

[Elena]

I know one thing about my kid, it's that he doesn't know Latin.

[Ash]

That's the thing. At times, though, he was said to be more lucid and appeared to be on the mend. So his parents started wondering maybe if it was time to return to Maryland and send him back to school.

[Elena]

Yeah, that sounds like a great idea because.

[Ash]

No, but there were like little, like, week long periods where he would be completely fine.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So they'd be like, all right, like, you're 13. We got to give you to school. You got to learn.

[Elena]

And this will just be a silly time we think about later where you were possessed for a little while.

[Ash]

Honestly, what's funny is, like, that's ultimately what ends up happening. This man lives a long life.

[Elena]

Funny story.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That we look back on.

[Ash]

But unfortunately. And this is so crazy, as soon as Ronald caught on to their conversations, he would become possessed again.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ash]

In one instance, when the subject of his returning to school came up, up, he started thrashing around on the bed and tore open his pajama top, and it revealed that the words no school were scratched on his chest. This demon does not. With the. The heavy learning, he said, schools out for ever. I wish it said that instead. That song wasn't a thing yet, I don't think.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

So as the deus wore on, Ronald became more abusive to anyone and everyone who entered the room. He would swear at them. He would attempt and sometimes succeed to make himself vomit.

[Elena]

O that would piss me off.

[Ash]

He would piss on himself.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

And otherwise be assaultive.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In one instance, he managed to break one of the bed springs from the mattress and jam it into Father Bow Bow's arm.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Drawing blood, obviously. Another time, when the family traveled back to Cottage City for a visit accompanied by Father Bowder, Ronald became physically violent on the train. He was said to have punched Bowdern in the testicles and screamed, that's a nutcracker for you, isn't it? It which is lowkey just teenage boy. That is low key. I'm like, baby wasn't possessed. Like, babe, that's just a 13 year old boy.

[Elena]

He just doesn't have another 13 year old boy to do it to. So he does it to the priest that's been sitting by his bed every.

[Ash]

Night thinking about of him punching a priest in the hall and saying, that's a nutcracker for you, isn't it? I love.

[Elena]

Isn't it?

[Ash]

I love, I love that part of it.

[Elena]

That's a nutcracker for you, isn't it?

[Ash]

Father, can you confirm that's a nutcracker, Father, can you confirm that? I just cracked your nuts, Deez Nuts. It is.

[Elena]

Literally. If this kid had friends, if he hadn't been pulled out of school and all that.

[Ash]

Oh, he was nutcracker in people when he was Nutcracker.

[Elena]

Everybody.

[Ash]

He's 13 years old and he'd be.

[Elena]

Doing it and being like, that's a nutcracker for you. Huh?

[Ash]

And then they was doing that. That's why he got kicked out of school.

[Elena]

But instead, instead he's got like an older priest that hangs out all the time. Oh my God, that's his friend. He's like, of course. Isn't it?

[Ash]

Isn't it so funny?

[Elena]

Oh, damn. Imagine being on that train.

[Ash]

I would, I would have taken on my phone. I would have taken on my phone a little bit. 1943 wouldn't have stopped me. You would have just again that for TikTok that was crazy. Well, well, for some reason after all that craziness, on April 4, the hunkers decided it was time to go back to Maryland so that Edwin could go to work and Ronald Rowland could go back to school and nutcracker someone else. Then after five days in Maryland, Ronald started acting out again. So he got sent back to Missouri and admitted to a hospital where he was observed for psychiatric symptoms. Feeling like they'd left too soon, Edwin And Odell also returned to Missouri to support their son.

[Elena]

Those are good parents right there, there.

[Ash]

Yeah. The exorcism finally came to an end on the evening of April 18. The priest had spent most of the afternoon and evening reciting the rite of exorcism over the boy, who now was draped in several religious medals and holding a crucifix in his hand. It's imagery. Yeah. It constructs a visual.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Throughout the day, his demeanor had swung back and forth from calm and pleasant to mean and violent. But by the evening, he did seem to have calmed down. Down. And his father, Boudern recited the Latin phrases over the bed, demanding to know the identity of the demon that possessed the boy. Ronald Roland's demeanor changed again and he started thrashing about the bed, claiming he was a fallen angel. Oh, like the devil, like sight, like Lucifer. Morningstar.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Finally, around 11:00pm, a quote, new masculine voice emerged from Ronald, who said, satan, Satan. I am Saint Michael. I command you, Satan, and the other evil spirits to leave this body in the name of Dominus. Immediately. Now, now, now. That's my best masculine voice. Mikey is literally my beat. Rest.

[Elena]

That shit broke me.

[Ash]

Certain. In the name of dumminess. Immediately.

[Elena]

Immediately.

[Ash]

All junior girls report to the gymnasium immediately. Oh my God. I haven't laughed this hard in years.

[Elena]

Oh, I love a paranormal stuff.

[Ash]

I do too. They're so good. Well, after that male voice emerged. That was a clip, by the way.

[Elena]

Oh, man, it was, it was audio.

[Ash]

They got it from 1940. Yeah, yeah, whatever.

[Elena]

That was funny.

[Ash]

After that, Ronald Roland's body spasmed one final time. He fell backward on the bed. And then in his normal 13 year old voice, he said, he is gone. He said, cool. Peace. Doubt y'all, y'all.

[Elena]

He left.

[Ash]

He said, peace up. Hey town.

[Elena]

So later, the ultimate Irish goodbye.

[Ash]

He didn't feel like staying any longer.

[Elena]

He didn't say bye, but he just left.

[Ash]

So later, Ronald would tell Father Bodern, in that final moment of possession, he had a vision of St. Michael holding a flaming sword. Heavy metal. The Hunkler family stayed in Missouri with the family for 12 more days just to be sure that Satan was actually gone, before finally returning home to Maryland. During this time, Father checked in with them regularly. But as far as anybody could tell, the possessing demon had left Ronald's body for good. For him, by all accounts, the phenomenon never occurred again. Once the Hunklers went back to Cottage City, Ronald was enrolled at Gorgonzola High School and he went on to college where he studied chemical Engineering and went on to work as a scientist for NASA.

[Elena]

Okay, Ronald.

[Ash]

Period.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

The who inspired of the Exorcist, became a scientist for NASA. That blew my mind. That's the funnest fact.

[Elena]

That is the funnest fact.

[Ash]

The funnest of all facts.

[Elena]

The funnest fact.

[Ash]

Thank you for agreeing.

[Elena]

That's really cool.

[Ash]

In a letter dated August 19, 1951, Father Bishop wrote of his visit to the Hunkler's house. He said, R, now 16, is a fine young man. His father and mother also became Catholic, having received their first Holy Communion on Christmas Day, 1950.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Praise be.

[Elena]

I mean, I guess if anything's going to turn you Catholic, it's an exorcism.

[Ash]

That's a possession.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Well, the diary of the account written by Father Bishop, like I said, became something of a legend at Georgetown University, though few have actually seen it.

[Elena]

I want to see it.

[Ash]

Well, few have, so good luck.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

No one seems to be able to settle on how long the document actually is. Some people say it's 16 pages and others say 26.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

But presumably this is how it came to the attention of the Washington Post and other Washington area papers in late 1949, where it gained some brief traction before mostly fading into obscurity since none of the reporters seem to be able to track down any of the participants to verify any kind of story. Other sources alleged that Father Luther Miles, the family's local priest, was the source to leak to the press. And that's when this story, like, really came out. While some of the press reports minimize the supposed demonic possession, which is lame, others chose to play it up or just tell it as it was, was for all it was worth citing the various ungodly messages that appeared on Ronald's body.

[Elena]

Like no school.

[Ash]

Like no school. That's ungodly. And the various examples of unknown telekinetic force. Like when the picture of Jesus Christ.

[Elena]

Jesus Christ was booty bumped off the wall.

[Ash]

Exactly. Yeah. If it wasn't for William Peter Blatty's 1971 novel and the movie that followed two years later, it's pretty likely that nobody actually would have ever heard of Roland do or Ronald Honkin. Clear.

[Elena]

It's true.

[Ash]

But the timing was just right. Americans were taking a particular interest in the occult at the time, so the story was thrust back into the spotlight and it kind of took on a life of its own. Now, it's important to be clear that even Blatty's novel was heavily influenced by Ronald's story, even though it was. It's actually just one of several influential stories and events that also included the Lodun possessions and the Louvier's possession. Both were 17th century witch trial that I think you would probably be.

[Elena]

Oh, damn.

[Ash]

Pretty interested in covering. Yeah, write that down.

[Elena]

Writing it down right now.

[Ash]

And there were different archaeological. Archaeological excavations that occurred throughout the early to mid 19th century across Africa and the Middle east that also inspired his story. So with so many different versions of the story floating around in the cultural zeitgeist, the question remains, what exactly did happen to Ronald Hunkler in 1949? Was he possessed by a demonic presence or was there something even more complicated going on? Who knows? Now, at this point, it's probably impossible to say with certainty what exactly happened to Ronald, but if there was an authority on the subject, it would probably be investigative journalist Mark Up Saznik. More than just the individual responsible for discovering Roland Doe's real identity, he also devoted a ton of time to the story. He conducted interviews with more than a hundred people who actually knew the Hunkler family personally and the other figures in the story, all in an attempt to verify the details of what has become one of America's most iconic scary stories. And his interviews with Ronald's childhood friends and peers revealed that far from being an ordinary shy boy, Ronald Hunkler was a very lonely, somewhat troubled kid who was struggling. Yeah, his father never actually believed that his son was possessed, reportedly was emotionally unavailable. So he rarely comes up in the story at all. Well, and the women in his life, on the other hand, were hugely influential, almost to his detriment, especially like his mom, I think, using their love of spiritualism as maybe the only means of bonding with him. And when it came to children his own age, it seems like his behavior and, you know, flaws kept them at an arm's length. Yeah, but Obsessnik didn't just speak to Ronald's friends and family. He also tracked down anybody who was directly involved with the case or familiar enough with those who were. And of the three priests at the center of the exorcism story, only Father Halloran was alive when Obsaznik began his investigation. At the time, Halloran actually reluctantly agreed to an interview, but he ended up revealing a lot about the case and its legacy.

[Elena]

Oh, damn.

[Ash]

When asked whether or not he would go on record as saying he believed that Ronald was truly possessed, he declined. Oh, he said, no, I can't go on record. I never made an absolute statement about these things because I didn't feel I was Qualified. I hadn't studied the phenomena and that sort of thing.

[Elena]

Huh.

[Ash]

According to him, Ronald never spoke in a voice other than his own.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

He never demonstrated supernatural strength or abilities.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

And when asked about Ronald's supposed extraordinary strength, Halloran said, I don't know. I never even thought very much about it. It certainly wasn't Mike Tyson hitting me in the nose or something like that. And as for Ronald speaking Latin, a language that he supposedly didn't know and had only occasionally heard, Father clarified, I think he mimicked us. Oh, so he's a non believer.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

You know, I mean, all valid, all valid. But the rest of his interview with Father Halloran unfolded in a similar thread. He recall Ronald spitting and swearing a lot. He didn't have any recollection of Ronald vomiting or urinating.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

And as far as the multiple reports of the bed moving, he acknowledged that they did, but he said it was on rollers, like any bed at the time. So there was really no way of knowing if it was moving, like how.

[Elena]

It was from him moving or if it was. Okay.

[Ash]

Yeah. Absaznik's investigation obviously provides a lot of clarifying information around what did and didn't happen during the exorcism of Ronald Hunkler, but it also provides some insight as to why there are so many gaps in the story and how it managed to get out to the public.

[Elena]

Yeah, for sure.

[Ash]

And when it comes to the earlier part of the story where Bishop claims to have been involved with the family in Ronald's hospitalization as well as his own attempted exorcism, Obsaznik was unable to find any information on Bishop's claims. So we don't know. His research indicates that Bishop didn't get involved until March and that the vast majority of the information he collected was from secondhand sources.

[Elena]

Okay, up.

[Ash]

Saznic pointed out no mention is made whatsoever of the alleged first exorcism attempted by Father Hughes at Georgetown University Hospital. And nothing is written of the boy's father's feelings or love, level of involvement, or the possible presence of psychosomatic illness within the boy.

[Elena]

Interesting.

[Ash]

Very interesting. If Mark of Sasnick and other skeptics are correct and Ronald Hunkler was never really possessed, then what actually did happen? Upsaznik says, personally, I do not believe Rob Doe was possessed. And instead he's come to his own conclusion based on everything he learned about the case and the people involved. He said there's simply too much evidence that indicates that as a boy, he had serious emotional problems stemming from his Home life, life. There's not one shred of hard evidence to support the notion of demonic possession. The facts show that he was a spoiled and disturbed only child with a very overprotective mother and a non responsive father. To me his behavior was indicative of an outcast youth who desperately wanted out of Bladensburg Junior High School at any cost. He wanted attention and he wanted to leave the area and go to St. Louis. Throwing tantrums was the answer. He began to play his concocted game. For his efforts, he got a collection of priests who had no previous exorcism experience, who doted over him as he lay strapped to a bas bed. His response was that of any normal child. He reacted with rage. He wanted out. Without delving into the dyn dynamics of psychosomatic illness, there's no question there was something wrong with Rob doe prior to January 1949. Something that modern era psychiatry might have best addressed. Rob Doe was not just another normal teenage boy.

[Elena]

My favorite part of that is that he got a collection of priests.

[Ash]

He said he was upset and he got a collection.

[Elena]

Collection of priests.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like that's just the most horrifying thing I got.

[Ash]

That's not the prize that I personally want. Like you.

[Elena]

Oh, you want to play this game? Here's a collection of priests that's going to sit by your bed at night.

[Ash]

Do you feel as though you won? Did you win, Ronald?

[Elena]

That's a. That's a real lose, lose.

[Ash]

It is. Well, whether he was possessed or not, Ronald Hunkler's 1949 claims of possession did help to fuel America's imaginations and of course America's interest and the supernatural. And of course, as one of the primary influences on the Exorcist, his story is everywhere. It's like part of American supernatural lore.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And while we may never know if it was real or not, it seems at this point really doesn't matter.

[Elena]

No, it really doesn't.

[Ash]

It's a fun story.

[Elena]

It's a blast all the way through.

[Ash]

I think it's great.

[Elena]

Yeah, I like that story.

[Ash]

I love that story and I love.

[Elena]

That he became a NASA scientist. So like he got it worked out all. Yeah, he came out the other end, personally. Good for him.

[Ash]

I think he was possessed.

[Elena]

I think, you know, let's go girls. Yeah.

[Ash]

And I think I. My story is that he was possessed and until he helped him out, that's. I like that. Thank you.

[Elena]

Thank you.

[Ash]

Jesus Christ. Amen.

[Elena]

Jesus Christ.

[Ash]

So, yeah, if you want to keep listening, we hope you do we hope you keep listening. We hope you keep it weird, but not so weird as getting a prize of three priests of a collection. Unless you want that. A collection of priests. You can have it if you want it. If you want it, keep it. It's so weird that if you want that, you get it and that if you don't, you don't, you don't.

[Elena]

Bye.

[Ash]

If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcast Prime. Members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[D]

Are you captivated by the dark and mysterious world of true crime? Wondery plus offers you the ultimate true crime experience with early access to new episodes, exclusive content, and a seamless ad free listening journey. With Onery plus, you'll get access to hundreds of podcasts, including more than 50 true crime series like Dr. Death, the shocking true story of a trusted surgeon who brought unimaginable pain and suffering to his patients.

[Elena]

This was not an operation that was performed. This was attempted murder.

[D]

And there's Morbid, the hit podcast that's a lighthearted nightmare. With Wondery, you get access to exclusive bonus content too, allowing you to dive deeper into the cases you love, like in Suspect, where an ordinary Halloween party turned into a terrifying murder mystery that left its mark on the community.

[Ash]

This case is one of those roller.

[D]

Coaster rides where it's like, no, he did it for sure.

[Ash]

No, he for sure he did it.

[D]

Each story is crafted to keep you enthralled, revealing the complexities and motivations behind every crime. Subscribe to Wondery on the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify today. Unlock the door to a world of true crime like never before with Wondery. The best true crime stories are always at your fingertips.