Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)

Summary

Morbid Network | Wondery
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Release Date: May 8, 2025

---

Introduction

In the second installment of their deep dive into the enigmatic and tumultuous life of Robert Durst, hosts Ash and Elena delve further into the labyrinthine mysteries surrounding one of America's most notorious real estate heirs. This episode unpacks the intricate web of disappearances, murders, and evasive maneuvers that have kept Durst in the public eye for decades.

---

Kathy Durst's Disappearance

The episode revisits the abrupt disappearance of Robert Durst's wife, Kathy Durst, which remains unresolved to this day. Initially, Durst's uncooperative behavior and lack of engagement with investigators raised suspicions among friends and law enforcement alike.

Elena emphasized the gravity of Durst’s actions:

"When Robert Durst seemed pretty uninterested in trying to find his wife, which in and of itself is very concerning." [07:04]

Durst's withdrawal from the spotlight and cessation of communication with friends fueled further doubts about his involvement in Kathy's disappearance.

---

Susan Berman's Murder

Approximately two decades after Kathy's disappearance, Susan Berman, a close friend of Durst and a successful author, was found dead in her Beverly Hills home. Her murder bore the hallmarks of a professional hit, with no signs of struggle or robbery, suggesting a personal motive.

Ash recounted the discovery:

"When officers arrived at Susan Berman's home, they found Susan inside on the floor, lying in a pool of dried blood, a single bullet hole to the back of her head." [20:02]

The absence of forced entry and the meticulous nature of the crime scene pointed investigators toward someone who knew Berman personally, reigniting suspicions about Durst's involvement.

---

Durst’s Flight and Evasive Actions

Following allegations linking him to Berman's death, Durst became increasingly elusive. In 2015, while awaiting trial for the murder of Morris Black, Durst skipped his arraignment in Texas, leading to a nationwide manhunt.

Elena highlighted the chaos of his flight:

"Durst spent most of the 1990s drifting back and forth between Connecticut, Texas, and Manhattan." [26:12]

Despite his wealth and resources, Durst was ultimately apprehended in Pennsylvania under mundane circumstances—stealing a sandwich from a Wegmans grocery store. This seemingly trivial act underscored the unpredictability and recklessness that characterized Durst's behavior.

Ash commented on the absurdity:

"It doesn't feel right. No." [26:44]
"He stole a goddamn sandwich. You stole it from a Wegmans." [28:21]

---

The Jinx Documentary and Durst's Confession

A pivotal moment in the Durst saga was his participation in HBO’s documentary series, The Jinx: The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst. During a recorded interview, Durst unknowingly made what appeared to be a damning confession.

Elena described the incident:

"In the sixth episode's final moments... Durst begins talking to himself. He was known to do that since childhood." [47:10]

As Durst excused himself to the bathroom, he muttered, "What the hell did I do? Killed them all. Of course," which many interpreted as an inadvertent admission of guilt. This moment became a cornerstone in the case against him, reinforcing the suspicions raised by his previous actions.

---

Durst's Trial and Conviction

Despite initial acquittals due to insufficient direct evidence, renewed investigations and the revelations from The Jinx fortified the prosecution's case. In 2021, Durst was convicted of the murder of Susan Berman.

Elena summarized the trial's outcome:

"After more than seven hours of deliberation, Robert Durst was found guilty of the murder of his best friend Susan Berman, more than two decades earlier." [64:14]

The prosecution argued that Durst killed Berman to silence her about Kathy's disappearance, presenting circumstantial evidence that painted a damning picture of premeditation and motive.

Ash reflected on the conviction:

"Yeah, it's such an interesting case. So fucking bizarre. Such a weird guy." [67:03]

---

Final Events and Durst's Death

Robert Durst never stood trial for the disappearance of his wife, Kathy, as he passed away in 2022 from cardiac arrest before any legal proceedings could conclude. His death marked the end of a bizarre and prolonged criminal saga that captivated the nation.

Elena noted the closure of Durst's story:

"His death in 2022 brought an end to the story of one of New York's wealthiest and most bizarre criminals." [66:09]

Despite his death, questions about Kathy Durst's fate remain unanswered, leaving a lingering sense of injustice and mystery.

---

Reflection and Conclusion

The hosts conclude by reflecting on the complexities and enduring intrigue of Robert Durst's case. They lament the unresolved aspects of Kathy's disappearance and the profound impact Durst's actions had on the lives around him.

Elena expressed her frustration:

"All I can think of those is, I mean, people said Susan Berman was not a good secret keeper. Someone know. Someone knows. You gotta say it, man." [68:11]

Ash added poignantly:

"That's really sad." [68:19]

The episode underscores the convoluted nature of true crime narratives, where wealth, power, and psychological complexities intertwine to create stories that are as disturbing as they are captivating.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• [07:04] Elena: "When Robert Durst seemed pretty uninterested in trying to find his wife, which in and of itself is very concerning."

• [20:02] Ash: "When officers arrived at Susan Berman's home, they found Susan inside on the floor, lying in a pool of dried blood, a single bullet hole to the back of her head."

• [26:44] Ash: "He stole a goddamn sandwich. You stole it from a Wegmans."

• [47:10] Elena: "Like, what's going on?"

• [64:14] Ash: "Yeah, it's such an interesting case. So fucking bizarre. Such a weird guy."

• [68:11] Elena: "All I can think of those is, I mean, people said Susan Berman was not a good secret keeper. Someone know. Someone knows. You gotta say it, man."

---

Conclusion

Part two of "The Crimes of Robert Durst" offers a comprehensive exploration of the dark and twisted narrative that has surrounded Durst for decades. From the mysterious disappearance of his wife to the calculated elimination of his friend Susan Berman, Durst's actions reveal a pattern of manipulation, aversion to accountability, and deep-seated psychological issues. The episode not only chronicles the facts but also provides insightful commentary on the human psyche behind one of true crime's most enduring figures.

For those who haven't listened to the episode, this summary encapsulates the key points and discussions, offering a thorough understanding of Robert Durst's complex and disturbing criminal history.

Transcript

[Elena]

Hey, weirdos. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about a place where the darkness never ends. Wondery. It's like stepping into a haunted mansion where the floorboards creak. With ad free episodes and early access to new episodes lurks around every corner. So come join us if you dare. Morbid is available one week early and ad free only on Wondery. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify.

[Ash]

You're listening to a morbid network podcast from the creator of Think Twice, Michael Jackson. Listen to the new Audible original Final thoughts Jerry Springer. Once known as the king of trash tv, Springer was the notorious talk show host whose wild daytime program transfixed audiences everywhere. Join Springer's personal and professional life as the ratings soared and the reviews soured. He here revealing interviews about the choices we make and the regrets we may have. Listen to the new trashy and true Audible original Final thoughts Jerry Springer by going to audible.com Springer Lamont Jones is.

[Narrator]

Shattered when his cousin dies just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. Wondery presents Death county pa. A chilling true story of corruption and coverups. Follow Death County PA on the Wonder app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ash]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash.

[Elena]

And I'm Elena.

[Ash]

And this is morbid.

[Elena]

This is morbid. And we've had a. We've had a good day.

[Ash]

I know it's been a, like a hectic good day. Yeah.

[Elena]

It's a crazy creative day. A very fun day. Yeah, yeah. It's been. It's been a blast.

[Ash]

I figured out a technical issue.

[Elena]

She did. I watched her do it.

[Ash]

I never figure out technical issues. And this is. This is big for me.

[Elena]

She figured the only reason you're hearing our voices right now is because Ash figured it out.

[Ash]

You know when that's ever happened? Not before this. None. None. As your youngest would say. None times.

[Elena]

None times.

[Ash]

They have. None done that.

[Elena]

Yeah. So we're. We're feeling good. And. Yeah. I'm trying to think if there's anything really exciting happening.

[Ash]

Really exciting. I feel like there's so many exciting things happening.

[Elena]

There are.

[Ash]

That we can't talk about.

[Elena]

I know, but we will.

[Ash]

But we're going.

[Elena]

We're not being one of those people. Like, we can't talk about it right now. We just have so many things happening. I just can't tell you. But you will. Absolutely. Oh, you know these things.

[Ash]

What was fun the other night? Going to Ronnie and Ben's live show. That was so much fun. And by the time you hear this, that will have been approximately 30 months ago. But it was just know we had a great time.

[Elena]

We did. We had a great time. Ronnie and Ben from Watch what Crappens came to Boston for a show. I laughed so hard during that show that my jaw hurt.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. If you love reality television, specifically Bravo. And you're not listening to Watch what crappins you gotta the Ronnie and Ben for anybody that out there that doesn't know they recap these shows, but they do it in such a magical way. They, like, do the voices.

[Elena]

Yeah. They impersonate all the housewives. Yeah.

[Ash]

They impersonate everything. Like Summer House Housewives. They even do their Patreon. They do White Lotus recaps, which are so much fun.

[Elena]

It's very worth it. They're very. They're hilarious. They put out insane amounts of content.

[Ash]

Truly.

[Elena]

And they're just like the loveliest human beings. We love them.

[Ash]

Yeah, they're great.

[Elena]

So that was a lot of fun. We got to meet a lot of weirdos there.

[Ash]

I know. That was so fun.

[Elena]

So that was a lot of fun. If we ran into you, it was lovely. And we were very happy to run into you.

[Ash]

Ye. We met a lot of Massachusetts girlies.

[Elena]

Yeah, we met a lot of Boston girlies. Around the town.

[Ash]

Sisters, if you will.

[Elena]

It was fun. We loved it. Yeah. And it made us really want to, like. We were like, ooh, looks like fun.

[Ash]

At the Wilbur, we might have texted our touring manager.

[Elena]

We might.

[Ash]

Not for a tour. Not for a tour. Let's be clear.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

We have a touring manager even though we don't tour. He's.

[Elena]

He's often sad.

[Ash]

He is often sad. In fact, he didn't believe us that we wanted. We were like, what if we did, like, one show on, like, this date? And he was like, I don't believe you.

[Elena]

He was like, yeah, sure.

[Ash]

He's like, I'll look into dates, but I don't believe you.

[Elena]

So you know what? Maybe that's in the future.

[Ash]

Bye. Bye.

[Elena]

The future is bright, everybody.

[Ash]

Oh, I was trying.

[Elena]

I used to wear shades. It's so bright.

[Ash]

I was about to go future, and then I didn't know why. And it's that. It's the Sabrina intro. Super random one.

[Elena]

Yeah. Sabrina the Teenage Witch's intro gets wild.

[Ash]

Future. Is it saying future, is it? Probably not. Everybody knows I sing the wrong lyrics, Is it not?

[Elena]

No. Because now you got me in my head.

[Ash]

Hold on. I'm gonna Google it. That one, I think is future.

[Elena]

No, it's saying it's.

[Ash]

It's not even future. It doesn't even sound like that at all. Do you know how many times this happened to me in my lifetime? It happens so much.

[Elena]

Guys, it doesn't happen.

[Ash]

It doesn't say future.

[Elena]

No, it's a secret. I knew it. I was like, it's future. I know it's not, but then all I had was future in my head, so I couldn't.

[Ash]

No, what it is is that I'm so compelling.

[Elena]

You are. You're very compelling. You compelled future into my head.

[Ash]

Wow. Yeah. Now I feel like I'm singing that for, like, another purpose. That, like, future.

[Elena]

Maybe you are. I don't know. You just connected it to the wrong nostalgia bomb.

[Ash]

I don't know. Let me know in the comments.

[Elena]

But either way, the main part of that was the future is bright. Yeah, it was lots of fun plans for the future. We even got there, the near future. So.

[Ash]

So let's. Let's get into it. I'm ready for part two.

[Elena]

Let's get into part two of Robert Durst. Because this guy sucks.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's accurate.

[Elena]

Yeah, he sucks a lot.

[Ash]

I want to re watch the Jinx, though.

[Elena]

You should. It has an amazing theme song.

[Ash]

I know we talked about that last time.

[Elena]

Fresh Blood by the Eels. I think that theme song was actually in Yellow Jackets, the last episode I watched. And I said, oh, I love this song.

[Ash]

Yeah, that song goes hard.

[Elena]

It goes hard. And the actual documentary is wild.

[Ash]

Sorry, I'm already getting us off course, but, like, that's my role in life. I am rewatching the Staircase right now.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, I remember that one.

[Ash]

Which I actually never finished. I, like, started it a long, long, long ago.

[Elena]

That's a crazy one.

[Ash]

It's interesting.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It's on Netflix right now.

[Elena]

I don't think I watched the whole thing.

[Ash]

It's long. I think it's like 13 episodes or something. And it's a very differently done documentary. Like you're seeing step by step.

[Elena]

Yeah, you're seeing a lot.

[Ash]

So I watched like, the first four or five episodes last weekend. I want to finish that one. Like, I'm into it and I don't know what happens in that case. So maybe. Maybe afterwards I'll cover it.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's definitely a good one to cover. Yeah, I would say. Yeah, for sure. Anyway, when we last left, you guys with part one, Robert Durst's wife Kathy has disappeared.

[Ash]

Yeah. And he's not being normal about it.

[Elena]

He doesn't seem like he, like, after a few months, he kind of, like, retreated out of the spotlight. He wouldn't give another interview. And he also stopped returning the detectives calls, which definitely made the detective suspicious for sure. Yeah.

[Ash]

Usually when you want to find your wife, you return all the police's phone calls.

[Elena]

Yeah. And we have, like, certain witnesses were now coming back and saying, actually, I don't know if I saw her. When I said I thought I saw her because I saw her from the back.

[Ash]

So it's like a lady with brown hair from behind.

[Elena]

Things are crumbling a little bit. So while Robert Durst seemed pretty uninterested in trying to find his wife, which in and of itself is very concerning, Kathy's friends Gilbert Najimi and Eleanor Schwenk had gone into way higher gear. He's retreating back. They're going into higher gear trying to find Kathy because this is their friend. So Najimi and Schwenk, more than anyone else, knew the extent of the abuse that was happening in this relationship at Robert's hands. And they felt. They knew the fear that Kathy had felt a lot.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And neither of them had trusted Robert Durst's timeline of events or explanation of what happened. They just both were like, no, doesn't add up. Which when your friends are already thinking that your husband is the reason you're missing. There was a problem. Yeah, like, there was a problem and that we should take these people seriously. So the problem was, though, they couldn't find any actual, like, solid evidence to prove he was lying or that he had anything to do with the disappearance. It was just kind of like, we know what was happening, and we think this is suspicious in that way. They were like Detective Strzok, all of them were hitting dead ends at the same time. Robert had dropped off the map completely at this point. He stopped going to work, stopped returning phone calls, and stopped talking to friends.

[Ash]

What the fuck? Where'd he go?

[Elena]

Apparently, his friend Doug Oliver said he retreated into himself and any messages he had for the outside world were conveyed only through his closest friend, Susan Berman. Durst finally returned to work the following year and continued making.

[Ash]

The following year?

[Elena]

Yeah, the next year and continued. This is when he continued making, like, major real estate deals. So he just, like, jumped right back in all around the city. And they were both on behalf of the Durst organization and himself as an individual. Oh, wow.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

So Detective Struck in the nypd. They continued following any new leads on Kathy's case, but again, they were getting Few and far between. And soon the case just went cold. Yeah. Now, in the years that followed Kathy's disappearance, because it's so sad. She just disappeared. Robert Durst settled into, you know, being a single guy, a wealthy Manhattan real estate developer. Really tough role to fall back into, I suppose.

[Ash]

So hard, I bet.

[Elena]

But behind the scenes, things were anything but good. Robert's lack of enthusiasm for the business because, remember, he never really wanted to enter that business.

[Ash]

Yeah. He wanted, like, a house.

[Elena]

He wanted to, like, open a shop.

[Ash]

It's his workshop.

[Elena]

So, like, he never really wanted to do this, but it's just like that was the family business, and it paid a lot of money.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So he just went with it. So his lack of enthusiasm for the business and his reckless and very scandalous personal life led his father to skip over Robert and leave the company to his younger brother, Douglas.

[Ash]

Oh, that's a bad hit.

[Elena]

Douglas had shown, like, a lot of enthusiasm for the business, a lot of passion for this world. So he was the obvious choice.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

It's very Session.

[Ash]

Very Succession. It is.

[Elena]

Douglas and Robert had always had a very difficult relationship, and Douglas promotion to the head of the Durst Organization only made things worse. That's. Which I can imagine that would be.

[Ash]

A tense family dinner.

[Elena]

Yeah. I feel like it's very like Connor and Kendall. Roy.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You know, in Succession. Go watch Succession. If you haven't watched that yet, you're missing out on great television.

[Ash]

Succession's one of the best shows I've ever seen in my life.

[Elena]

I can say that with full confidence. It is in my top three shows of all.

[Ash]

Yeah. And I love Roman more than life.

[Elena]

Yeah. It's. The characters are. And Shiv so good.

[Ash]

Yeah. But you hate them all, too.

[Elena]

Yeah. You hate them, but they're one, to be clear. Yeah. They're the worst. But. But by the end of the 1980s, Robert stopped going to work at the Durst Organization and cut off communication with his family. Again. Again.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Not long after, he stopped communicating again with his friends altogether. Okay. One friend said he separated from everyone in New York. It was a loss of face in his mind. So him losing that was like a big reputation blow, an ego blow.

[Ash]

But it's like everybody knew that you didn't give a shit about it anyway. Yeah.

[Elena]

That's the thing.

[Ash]

Work a little harder.

[Elena]

Hard work, my friends. But. So this is the thing. It's like he. Kathy disappears. He retreats. He retreats even further. Then he just suddenly reappears again. Tries to go hard at everything, gets this Blow to his ego retreats back again. Like he can't handle any disruption in the path. Yeah. So Durst spent most of the 1990s drifting back and forth between Connecticut, Texas, and Manhattan random. In 1995, he showed up at his father's hospital, at his bedside, when Seymour Durst was dying, but only after his brother and sister agreed to leave the hospital so he wouldn't have to see or talk to either of them.

[Ash]

When your dad is dying, you gotta put your petty differences aside.

[Elena]

Well, it's like, I just. Like, I would be. If the differences are, though. Like, which? Like, obviously, no one knows what goes on in any one family. Interpersonal relationships. It's difficult to tell what was happening. If. If the. If the issue, the beef is just that you got skipped over for the. That's what I mean, the business, then, like, you got to put it aside. You know what I mean? Like, that's just. What are you doing? Right. You know, like, that's petty.

[Ash]

That's trivial at a time when someone's dying.

[Elena]

It is. It's just one of those things.

[Ash]

Obviously, there are other scenarios where.

[Elena]

Well, you just. You just never know. Like, it's hard to tell. But he also refused to go to the funeral. Wow.

[Ash]

Which is like, whoa, that's really shitty.

[Elena]

I mean, it's. It's gnarly. I mean, there's a statement.

[Ash]

There are funerals I might skip. So.

[Elena]

Yeah. So, I mean, like, again, I didn't live his life. His life in his house, thank goodness. So through all of his, you know, tumult, essentially, like, he just couldn't get it together. The only constant in Dearth's life has been who?

[Ash]

Susan.

[Elena]

Susan Berman.

[Ash]

Susan.

[Elena]

However, Berman's life in the 80s and 90s hadn't been the easiest.

[Ash]

Oh, okay.

[Elena]

She had written a few novels and even optioned some of them for films, but they all kind of fell through. O. And the novels she did publish didn't sell nearly as well as she had expected them to. Despite the financial disappointments, Berman had purchased a large house in Brentwood, one of California's wealthiest neighborhoods.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

At the time, she'd grown really, really paranoid of the world around her. Like, she was just retreating.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

She nailed the windows of her house shut and bolted all the doors whenever she was at home.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Which is, like, really sad.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's like, straight up agoraphobia.

[Elena]

Yeah. By the late 1990s, Berman had moved to a much smaller house in Benedict Canyon, just north of Beverly Hills. Again, she hadn't seen much financial Success. But she managed to make enough money to get by selling a few novels, producing a series for cable tv. She was doing some things. By that time, her marriage had fallen apart and she'd divorced her husband. So she was living alone. She was driving a 1984 car that would occasionally catch fire. Oh. You know. And constantly borrowing money from friends. So she was struggling.

[Ash]

I'm just a little stuck on her car occasionally catching fire.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You know, I don't. You gotta end with that. You can't really stuff that in the middle.

[Elena]

Yeah. I really liked putting that in the middle, to be honest.

[Ash]

I'm sorry for Susan, for everything she was experiencing, but specifically her car occasionally catching fire.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

For, like, just from time to time.

[Elena]

Every once in a while, you know what. Yeah. She's going through it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

She's got a lot going on. The divorce, the move, the not selling the novels like she was hoping to. She's borrowing money from friends. The car is catching on fire. Like, there's a lot.

[Ash]

That's a lot on your mental health.

[Elena]

The one thing Susan did have and knew she always would have was Robert.

[Ash]

Durst, which I don't know if that's a prize.

[Elena]

Yeah. I would say no. In the late 90s, Durst had been difficult to get a hold of, and the two hadn't spoken in months.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

So that must have been tough. Finally, in August 2000, Susan sent a letter to Robert, care of the Durst Organization, asking him to get in touch. She had needed to borrow $7,000 to.

[Ash]

Buy a new car because it caught.

[Elena]

On fire in 1988. 4. One is catching on fire. But more than that, she missed her best friend and needed some support.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

She was just like, I miss you. I just, like, need somebody who I think cares about me.

[Ash]

Yeah. Or at least did at some point.

[Elena]

Months passed, and no word came.

[Ash]

Oh, that must have really hurt.

[Elena]

Yeah. Then in November, a check for $25,000 arrived in the mail.

[Ash]

That's a little more than she asked for.

[Elena]

With a note that read, it's not a loan, it's a gift, and you can always count on me.

[Ash]

I want a friend like that.

[Elena]

Which, like, damn.

[Ash]

Not in this scenario, but damn.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

$25,000. It's not a loan, it's a gift.

[Elena]

Yeah. It was literally a miracle for her. Like, this was.

[Ash]

Of course it was.

[Elena]

It allowed her to pay off some debt, buy a car. Like she was really. It allowed her to climb out of a little bit of the hole she was in.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But less than two weeks later, Susan Berman was dead. Oh yeah.

[Ash]

Don't let allergy season slow you down. Get common allergy meds for as little as $15 with GoodRx so you and your family, even pets too, can stop allergy symptoms before they start. GoodRx is free and it's easy to use. Just search for your prescription on the website or the app, compare prices and get a free coupon to show your pharmacist. Save at over 70,000 local pharmacies nationwide, including all the big Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, Publix, Kroger and many more. Check Gutterx before every trip to the pharmacy to save up to 80% on both brand and generic medications. And did you know that GoodRx actually rewards you for saving money too? Join GoodRx Rewards today and earn points every time you use a coupon. Remember, GoodRx is not insurance, but it does work whether you have insurance or not and it could beat your insurance copay price. I actually just ran into that. I was at the pharmacy and they gave me a crazy number for one of the meds that I needed to get. I said give me just one second please. I pulled up Goodrx and honey, I found me a good coupon. Stop allergies before they start and save big on allergy medications this season with GoodRx. Go to goodrx.commorbid that's goodrx.commorbid we all have bad, bad habits, but there's always a turning point. With those bad habits you can find something else to make up for the crappy thing you're doing. Meet Fume, the flavored air device designed to help you ditch the bad habits and feel good about what you're reaching for. Let me tell you about this new alternative to smok and vaping called Flavored Air. Our sponsor Fume, have created an award winning flavored air device that helps people ditch the bad habit of smoking. Fume has lots of delicious flavors to choose from. There's Crisp Mint, there's also Orange Vanilla and new Peach blush. I need to try orange vanilla because I bet that tastes like a creamsicle and that's my favorite flavor. With Flavored Air you can satisfy your oral fixation through a passive diffusion system that utilizes no electronics, vapor or combustion. And there's no nicotine so it's not addictive. It's also non toxic flavors. It is a guilt free free alternative and no battery so you never need to charge it. That's a win, win win. Fume has already helped over 400, 000 people take steps toward better habits. And now it's your turn. Use our code morbid to get a free gift with your journey pack head to try fume.com that's try f u-m.com and use code morbid to claim this limited time offer. Today.

[Elena]

On December 24, Berman's next door neighbors noticed that the back door to her house had been slightly open for some time, and one of her dogs had gotten loose.

[Ash]

Aww.

[Elena]

Given how paranoid Susan had been about safety, the situation seemed very unusual to this couple. So they called the police.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

When officers arrived at Susan Berman's home, they found Susan inside on the floor, lying in a pool of dried blood, a single bullet hole to the back of her head.

[Ash]

Oh, geez.

[Elena]

To investigators, the murder appeared to be a professional execution, like one might expect to see out of, like, a Mafia hit. Yeah. Essentially. And given Susan's family background, because remember, remember where Susan comes from. From part one.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

A mob hit wouldn't have been completely out of the question.

[Ash]

And she just came into this, like.

[Elena]

Money, a little bit money here.

[Ash]

Oh, wow.

[Elena]

Also, there didn't appear to be any sign of struggle in the house. And Berman's purse was lying in plain view with nothing missing.

[Ash]

Holy.

[Elena]

So it wasn't like it was a robbery.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So it's so funny.

[Ash]

I had, like, I've seen this documentary, but I forgot a lot of this.

[Elena]

It's been a while since that came out.

[Ash]

Yeah, I mean, I think I saw that, like, 10 years ago.

[Elena]

The idea that Susan Berman had been killed by a member of an organized crime family may not have been entirely unrealistic, but it also wasn't very likely.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Because like, like, mob hits are happening.

[Ash]

Like, all over the well, and a lot of times, like, women aren't involved.

[Elena]

Yeah. So after all, you know, by 2000, the US government had almost completely eradicated the original crime families. And it seemed kind of impossible that her murder could have anything to do with her father's criminal activity.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Because he had died decades earlier. So it's not like he was, like, out and about doing some shady shit. Yeah. But as investigators soon learned, Susan's father wasn't the only connection she had to criminal activity.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

In fact, nearly 20 years earlier, the wife of Susan's best friend, Robert Durst, had gone missing, and he had been the prime suspect in her disappearance. This is true connection.

[Ash]

There it is.

[Elena]

So, based on the crime scene, investigators theorized that Berman had known her attacker. There was no sign of struggle, no sign of forced entry. Remember, she's forced. She is like Fort Knox. She's locked in.

[Ash]

She would have let somebody in there that she trusted.

[Elena]

She had to let somebody in. If somebody came in and she'd obviously turned her back on them long enough for the killer to aim and fire the gun. Something she wasn't gonna do for most people.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

There was also the unusual letter Beverly Hills Police received a few days after Berman's body was found. It was dated December 23, the day before she was discovered. And the letter was addressed to the Beverly Hills Police. It was also spelled wrong. It had an extra E in Beverly, like L E. Yeah. And contained an anonymous note with Berman's address and the word cadaver. Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

That's chilling.

[Elena]

Yeah. And just like, not long after the note was received, someone pointed out that the misspelling of the word Beverly on the envelope was a typo that Durst was known to commonly make. He commonly spelled Beverly wrong this way. However, when he was confronted with the letter, he, of course, vehemently denied having written or sent it. But that is a strange coinc. That he just happens to misspell this word.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's real specific.

[Elena]

Yeah. It's worth noting that this was Durst's position on the matter for nearly 20 years. Damn. Until 2019, when his legal team acknowledged that Durst had, in fact, sent the letter. But that quote didn't change the fact that Bob Durst did not kill Susan Berman.

[Ash]

Oh, so he just sent the letter.

[Elena]

And knew that there was a dead body in her home that says cadaver?

[Ash]

Like, come on.

[Elena]

What? He just sent that?

[Ash]

Sometimes with shit like that, I'm like. Like, I know you got to. You got to do what you got to do, but, like, are you guys fudgeing for real right now?

[Elena]

Really arguing that? Like, I mean, like, you got to do it.

[Ash]

I don't know how. Judges just don't say, are you fucking for real?

[Elena]

I would. Like, I'd be so for real, right?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, be so fudgeing for real.

[Ash]

Let's be straight up here.

[Elena]

Like, come on. So when friends learned of Berman's death, some thought of her father and his connection to the mob. Because for much of her young life, Susan had known very little about her father's business. And it was only when she was an adult and he was long dead that she kind of started learning about his brutal, murderous past.

[Ash]

Oh, so maybe people were thinking, like, she's diving into this. She's going too close.

[Elena]

Yeah. Yeah. Others, though, thought of Robert Durst Yeah.

[Ash]

I could see why.

[Elena]

Berman's friend Christian Clarke said, it has bothered me and haunted me virtually every day for 20 years.

[Ash]

Oh, I can't imagine that.

[Elena]

Yeah. When Clark learned of Morris Black's death and Durst's arrest, she immediately thought of Susan and was more convinced than ever that he was involved.

[Ash]

Absolutely.

[Elena]

It turned out that Christiane Clarke wasn't the only one who suspected Durst could have been responsible for Susan Berman's murder. Detectives in California also found his connection to the victim to be very suspicious. It turned out that just weeks before she was discovered, investigators in New York had been trying to get in touch with Susan Berman to discuss the recently reopened case in the disappearance of Kathy Durst.

[Ash]

Oh, shit.

[Elena]

Isn't that strange? Yup. That they were going to be contacting her and now she's murdered.

[Ash]

Oh, man. And, like, that's your best friend.

[Elena]

That's your best friend.

[Ash]

Like, obviously, you don't have feelings.

[Elena]

Clearly. Clearly. But, like, damn.

[Ash]

Fuck.

[Elena]

Yeah. Gilbert Najimmy told a reporter, I find it hard to believe there's not a connection between the Durst and Berman cases. Yet as far as the LAPD was concerned. The lapd, they were unwilling to publicly declare Robert Durst a suspect.

[Ash]

Strange stance.

[Elena]

At least until they had more information and evidence connecting him to the crime. In the meantime, Robert was free to move about the country, which is when he chose to relocate to Galveston, Texas, where he met Morris Black while he was in custody for the murder of Morris Black.

[Ash]

So the future bit.

[Elena]

Yeah, so we. So we had a little feature trip. Now he's off to Texas. That's when the Morris Black bit happened. That's also when he was impersonating someone else.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

Which tells you, like, a little bit about the headspace season. While he was in custody for the murder of Morris Black, Robert Durst said nothing to police and was freed on $250,000 bond pending arraignment, which was scheduled for the following week on October 16th.

[Ash]

It's like, obviously, that's a high number, but also, he's a rich person.

[Elena]

Exactly. He can do that in a second.

[Ash]

That's not great.

[Elena]

Unfortunately for investig investigators, October 16th arrived, and Robert Durst was nowhere to be found. Yeah.

[Ash]

Are you guys shocked?

[Elena]

Yeah. When he failed to show up for his hearing, he was labeled a fugitive, and law enforcement agents were dispatched from Texas to hunt him down.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

At the same time, the judge revoked Durst's bail and tripled it to 750,000 even.

[Ash]

I feel like if you're being held in question of a murder like that.

[Elena]

Like that should be a mill.

[Ash]

That was a brutal murder.

[Elena]

It should be a mill.

[Ash]

Morris Black was dismembered.

[Elena]

Yeah, it should be a mill. Or it should just be baseline.

[Ash]

None. No. But no option.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, obviously, I don't know how all of that. Like the intricacies of that, but still.

[Elena]

It doesn't feel right. No. Now, when asked about Durst fleeing Texas, authorities speculated that Robert Durst knew his chances with a jury were not going to be very good.

[Ash]

Yeah, probably not.

[Elena]

Lt. Mike Putnall said, as much as there is about this case, we still do not know. The one thing we're really confident in in is the strength of the evidence. Yeah. While Durst's flight from Galveston wasn't necessarily evidence of his guilt, the evidence against him definitely didn't look good. And when they continued looking into his background, things only got stranger. It turned out that the woman who paid Durst Bond a few weeks earlier, Deborah Lee Sheraton, wasn't just an acquaintance, but his wife, who he'd married a few weeks before moving to Galveston.

[Ash]

The fuck?

[Elena]

For 45 days, investigators fielded calls with tips about potential Durst sightings. So he's married now, by the way. The wife has now paid his bonds.

[Ash]

But she didn't live in the apartment where he lives.

[Elena]

It's so messy. There were rumors about his having fled to Mexico or other parts of Texas, and reports of sightings up and down the east coast from New Orleans to New York. Lead Detective Cody Kozales told reporters. With his money, he could be anywhere.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

If investigators were expecting to find Robert Durst in some far off country or tropical island somewhere, they were surely shocked when Durst was finally arrested on November 30 after being caught stealing a sandwich from a Wegmans grocery store in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

[Ash]

That is one detail of this story that I will never forget, that as.

[Elena]

Long as I live, has endless amounts.

[Ash]

Of cash and steals a Sammy.

[Elena]

He stole a goddamn sandwich. You stole it from a Weggies. What's wrong with you?

[Ash]

Don't be stealing from.

[Elena]

Don't you steal from away. It's a great family. I think we love Wegmans.

[Ash]

I so heavy with Wegmans.

[Elena]

Wegmans for life. And the fact that you are a fudgeing fugitive on the run with endless cash, and you choose to commit the stupidest crime dumb or just make your own goddamn sandwich. You don't even have to buy one.

[Ash]

A man like that doesn't make his own sandwich.

[Elena]

God damn. More bizarre than the Shoplifting itself was the fact that when he was taken into custody, Durst had several hundred dollars in cash on him and could have paid for that sandwich. Like, or anything else you wanted in that store for that, you probably could have paid for the store also.

[Ash]

What's the. Like, I understand that like. Like, people who steal get some kind of thrill. The kind of thrill do you get from stealing a sandwich? It's gonna be gone in a minute.

[Elena]

That thrill is not worth. You're a fugitive, babe.

[Ash]

I mean, I'm glad that you made that choice.

[Elena]

That's not good.

[Ash]

But still, like a sandwich that you're just gonna eat. Yeah.

[Elena]

It's like, what. What do you get out of that?

[Ash]

What's the thrill there?

[Elena]

Now? When asked about Durst's demeanor following his arrest, store manager Kevin Strickles described as nervous from the standpoint that he got caught stealing. When he was asked why he'd risk shop. Shoplifting at a time like that. Because, like, everybody wanted to know what I want to know.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Durst replied, I don't know why I did it. I guess I'm just an asshole.

[Ash]

Self aware. Self aware, period. The most valid statement to say, I guess I'm just an asshole.

[Elena]

He is just an asshole. I mean, he's fully upfront about it. Just like, yeah, I guess I just suck.

[Ash]

I guess I'm just. But it's also kind of annoying because it's like. Like, self. Oh, it's totally flatulating. No, not flagellating. What is it I always say? Self flagellating.

[Elena]

It's flagellating.

[Ash]

It's so self flagellating.

[Elena]

Well, it's very like, he. It's very like, I guess I'm just an asshole, and you all have to deal with it.

[Ash]

Whatever.

[Elena]

Like, the world has to accept that I'm an asshole.

[Ash]

Yeah. I shouldn't work on that or anything. Yeah, I shouldn't stop farting all over myself.

[Elena]

Stop farting all over yourself. So a few months.

[Ash]

Robert.

[Elena]

Robert. A few months later, investigators released the details of the manhunt for Robert Durst, which included tracking the millionaire across several states. According to those closest to the case, during his six weeks on the run, he, quote, used at least six aliases, many of them names drawn from his past, like those of former classmates or a handyman he employed.

[Ash]

So weird.

[Elena]

Very strange.

[Ash]

I couldn't keep track of all that. That's what I don't understand about, like, pathological liars.

[Elena]

Absolutely not.

[Ash]

I can't lie like that.

[Elena]

No. I just get too confused. I'd Be overwhelmed. He also posed as a woman at least twice. And he would dress as a woman and wore a wig to really, like, sell it.

[Ash]

I mean, he was doing that for like years in that apartment.

[Elena]

Yep. During the manhunt, Mike Putnall told reporters, we really don't have any idea where he was. Where he was. He wasn't accessing the bank accounts or using the credit cards we know of. He took elaborate measures to avoid capture. But then he makes mistakes, like stealing a hoagie.

[Ash]

Not a hoagie.

[Elena]

Not a hoagie.

[Ash]

We don't have those here.

[Elena]

We call them subs.

[Ash]

Oh, is that what that is? Yeah, I never really knew what a hoagie was.

[Elena]

Yeah. Hoagie is not over here.

[Ash]

Oh, what? It's a sub.

[Elena]

It's a sub. Durst's wife. Oh, yeah, everyone remember he's married. She attempted to withdraw a cool $1.8 million from the bank before investigators froze the account.

[Ash]

I mean, she probably knew that shit was coming.

[Elena]

Quick yoink. You need some spending money.

[Ash]

It's not going to freeze your assets.

[Elena]

A quick $1.8 million, take two. Yeah, it's not great. So the investigators froze the account. Durst had also rented a car using Morris Black's identification. Oh. But otherwise his trip was a series of motels and truck stops as he made his way from Texas to the northeast.

[Ash]

But I'd call that a smoking gun.

[Elena]

I would say so. In September 2003, Robert Durst finally went on trial for the murder of Morris Black after several failed attempts by his lawyer to get the trial delayed even.

[Ash]

Further just so they could come up with a fucking refrain.

[Elena]

Try to come up with something. Several times, Durst's defense attorney, Chip Lewis, argued that investigators had inviolated his clients rights when they went through the trash cans outside the apartment building in Galveston, where much of the evidence linking Durst to the murder was found.

[Ash]

Isn't that like, once your trash is.

[Elena]

Outside, it's on the street, man. It's done. Well, what are you talking about? Lewis argued the police officer tried to gain what he could not do by legal means. He used the landlord as a pawn. The judge disagreed, noting that the trash cans were the property of the city, not Durst.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

And the full scope of the evidence was admitted.

[Ash]

Right. I always thought trash fair game.

[Elena]

Yeah, they're. If they're. Those trash cans belong to the city, man.

[Ash]

Yeah, you're just renting them.

[Elena]

Described by the press as a, quote, eccentric. And this is the. By the press. This is not me. He was Described as a eccentric cross dressing New York real estate heir. Wolf. Yeah, that's the press.

[Ash]

That is Wolf Press.

[Elena]

Yeah. Wolf Press indeed. Also stop. Describe him as a murderer.

[Ash]

Yeah, he's a murderer. Exactly.

[Elena]

Robert Durst's trial drew considerable attention from news outlets around this country. In his opening statement, the prosecutor Kurt Sistrunk told the jury the case was a straightforward murder. He said this was no killing in self defense. There was no justified action in killing Morris Black. It was nothing but a cold blooded murder, all done without hesitation. Yeah. The prosecutor theorized that Durst, who was clearly hiding out in Texas, had killed Black in order to assume his identity. Oh, which makes a lot of sense.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

He's been on the run basically from everybody. The defense, on the other hand, argued that Black's death was the result of an accidental shooting that occurred when in self defense Robert Durst grappled with Black over the gun. Defense attorney Dick DeGaran said how he died will not be an issue. Morris Black died as a result of a life and death struggle over a gun that Morris Black had threatened Bob Durst with.

[Ash]

So how do you explain the dismemberment?

[Elena]

That's what I'm wondering. Last year, long crime brought you the trial that captivated the nation. She's accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston police officer John o' Keefe, with her car. Karen Reed is arrested and charged with second degree murder. The six week trial resulted in anything but resolution. We continue to find ourselves at an impasse. I'm declaring a mistrial in this case. But now the case is back in the spotlight and one question still lingers. Did Karen Reed kill John o' Keefe?

[Ash]

The evidence is overwhelming that Karen Reed is innocent.

[Elena]

How does it feel to be a cop killer, Karen? I'm Kristen Thorne, investigative reporter with law and crime and host of the podcast Karen the Retrial. This isn't just a retrial. It's a second chance at the truth. I have nothing to hide. My life is in the balance and it shouldn't be.

[Narrator]

I just want people to go back.

[Ash]

To who the victim is in this. It's not her.

[Elena]

Listen to episodes of the Retrial exclusively and ad free on Wondery.

[Narrator]

Lamont Jones world is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes death County, Pennsy. A chilling true story of corruption and cover ups that begins as one man's search for answers but soon reveals a disturbing pattern. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many. And powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never before heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County, Pennsylvania pulls back the curse the of on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story. It's happening right now. Follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County PA early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

[Elena]

The defense acknowledged that there were sensational and like you just stated grotesque aspects to the case, but reminded the jury that while Durst may have been involved, the prosecution had no evidence to support the claim that he had intentionally murdered Morris Black.

[Ash]

Okay. But he definitely very intentionally dismembered his body with a paring knife.

[Elena]

And they're not, they're not arguing that. They're saying it was self defense and he had to, you know, as, yeah.

[Ash]

We cross certain lines and we get to different places.

[Elena]

As for Durst's behavior after Black's death, like you are discussing, Dagarin said Durst was susceptible to panic and has a personality that, quote, runs from trouble.

[Ash]

I would say that's like a little bit different than, like, running from trouble.

[Elena]

They're not arguing that he did that. They're just like, well, he got upset.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You know, he kind of freaked out. Panicked. He panics. He has a panic thing.

[Ash]

Bitch. I panic all the time.

[Elena]

I'm like, bitch, we're all panicking. Like, we can't be saying that that's okay.

[Ash]

This entire country is in a state of panic.

[Elena]

You can't be telling me that that's okay after you panic.

[Ash]

That's not the response.

[Elena]

All of this, they argued, was the result of Durst's fears that Black was a violent man and had targeted Durst in the weeks before his death. Okay. Going into the trial, investigators in the prosecutor's office felt pretty confident that they had everything they needed to secure an easy conviction for murder.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

After all, Durst didn't just shoot Morris Black to death. He also skillfully dismembered and disposed of his body. Then when he was arrested for the crime, he skipped bail and fled the.

[Ash]

State while using more identification.

[Elena]

Still, they couldn't get around the fact the defense was right. The only thing they didn't have was direct evidence to prove that the shooting was intentional.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Elena]

When he was cross examined by the defense, Cody Cazales was asked directly whether they had anything to disprove Durst's claim of Self defense. And the detectives simply answered, no, sir. Because they didn't.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

On November 5, 2003, the jury entered the deliberation phase, which dragged into the following day and then into the next day. On the third day of the deliberation, the jury requested the court reporter read back Durst statement about the fight over the gun. Which is like, not great. Like, you're just like, oh, I asked him for that. Yeah. Finally, after nearly a full week of deliberations, the jury emerged, and they returned an acquittal, stating they didn't feel the prosecution had offered enough evidence to prove the shooting had been intentional and thus left room for our favorite thing, reasonable doubt.

[Ash]

I think I would struggle so much on a judge.

[Elena]

This would be a hard one.

[Ash]

I would struggle because, you know.

[Elena]

But you are also being told you need to look at the evidence.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

Did they prove. Do you have any reasonable doubt that this is not an intentional.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And it's like, ugh.

[Ash]

Ugh.

[Elena]

So the verdict came as a shock to the prosecution, who, despite lacking irrefutable evidence of an intentional shooting, felt the circumstantial evidence had been enough to secure a conviction, which I get why they felt that.

[Ash]

I agree. Yeah.

[Elena]

When asked whether he felt Durst was still a threat to the community, Kurt Sistrunk told reporters, Mr. Dirt is not going to be invited into my house.

[Ash]

We love that answer.

[Elena]

The acquittal may have resolved the question of murder, but Durst was still on the hook for two counts of bail jumping and one count of tampering with evidence. The latter for the dismemberment of Black's body.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

In December 2004, Durst accepted an offer from the DA's office in which he would plead guilty to both in exchange for a five year sentence. That's bullshit. Two years credit for time serve for three years.

[Ash]

Dismembering an entire man.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That's so fucked up.

[Elena]

Robert Durst was paroled on July 15, 2005, with the understanding that he would remain in the area and avoid certain locations, like the apartment building where Morris Black's death had occurred. However, less than two weeks after being paroled, Durst visited the apartment building, thus violating his parole. Why the fuck did he have to go back there?

[Ash]

Yeah. Just to be a dick.

[Elena]

And as a result.

[Ash]

Because he's an asshole.

[Elena]

Yeah. And as a result, he was sent back to jail to finish out his sentence and was released from prison in a year. In March 2006.

[Ash]

What the fuck?

[Elena]

He was out free.

[Ash]

Why would you go back and they.

[Elena]

Were like, don't go to the place where you murdered that guy that you have no business going to and that you literally have no reason to go back to. And he was like, got it.

[Ash]

And at that point, it's like, is that even your apartment anymore?

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

It's not. He has no reason to go back there. Literally not. He's so, like, stupid.

[Ash]

Stupid. And like, indeed. What is the.

[Elena]

He's self sabotaging and he's reckless.

[Ash]

He's. He's all of these things. He's so.

[Elena]

He's an.

[Ash]

And he's an asshole. It's like. It's like he has to, like, he's compulsive.

[Elena]

Compulsive. Yes, that's the word.

[Ash]

Thank you, Jesus.

[Elena]

So for months before, during, and after the trial, the news about Robert Durst and the murder of Morris Black spread around the country. And those reports almost always referenced the disappearance of Kathie Durst.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

And the recent murder of Susan Berman. And given how sensational those stories were, and Durst's life in general was pretty sensational and wild, I'd say. So it was only a matter of time before the Robert Durst story became the subject of a film. Now, in 2008, documentarians and screenwriters Marcus Hinchey and Mark Smerling began working on a screenplay based loosely on Durst's earlier years and Kathy's disappearance. A few years earlier, Smerling and his filmmaking partner, Andrew Jarecki had scored a big indie hit with Capturing the Friedmans. It was a documentary about a child sex abuse scandal in Great Neck, New York, and how the trial affected the family of the perpetrator. Hoping to parlay that success into the world of dramatic feature films, Hinchey and Smerling wrote a dramatization of Kathy's disappearance with Jarecki attached to direct. The script was quickly bought by the Weinstein Company shutters, and in 2010, the company released All Good Things, starring Ryan Gosling, who was playing David Marks in the film that was supposed to be Robert Durst.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

And then Kirsten Dunst was playing that David Marks character's wife, Katie McCarthy, who's supposed to be Kathy Durst.

[Ash]

Kathy, I haven't seen that.

[Elena]

Yeah. The title was a reference to the health food store that Robert opened.

[Ash]

Oh, fuck. Yeah.

[Elena]

In Vermont in the 70s. And the store traced the couple's relationship from their meeting in the early 70s to her disappearance in 1982. Oh. However, the fictional version of the story fills in the ending, where the real account remained unresolved including the Manhattan DA's reopening of the case after reading a novel from David, Mark's best friend. That's like in the film. The film stops short of implying that the fictional Durst killed his wife, leaving that for the audience to decide, which is. Is probably the best way to go about it. Yes. Smart. All Good Things received mixed reviews from critics. It did pretty poorly at the box office, with most critics noting the film's inspiration offered considerably more drama than the fictional account actually did. They were like, the real thing is way more interesting to watch.

[Ash]

That's gotta be tough, though, with legality.

[Elena]

Well, you can't. And you don't want to be, like, sensational while retelling it. Yeah, you know, like, that's a hard one.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's a tough line to tow.

[Elena]

But there was one viewer who was particularly impressed with the movie and called Andrew Jarecki to tell him as much. According to Jareki.

[Ash]

Don't even tell me it's.

[Elena]

After seeing the film, Robert Durst called the director to share his appreciation of what he believed was an even handed account of his life.

[Ash]

Christ almighty.

[Elena]

Also, Durst, who had famously avoided the press for decades, offered to participate in the commentary for the DVD release of All Good Things. Throughout the commentary, Durst can be heard verifying the accuracy of some of the film's more violent scenes, including one in which he dismembers the fictional version of Morris Black. He says in the flattest, eeriest tone while watching that this is more or less accurate.

[Ash]

What the fuck?

[Elena]

The fact that we have this man on audio so many times, basically admitting to everything he did in the most horrific ways. In the process of recording the commentary, Jarecki and Durst spent a lot of hours together, talking, getting to know each other. At the time, Durst was still being investigated by authorities in LA for the murder of Susan Berman and by the Manhattan District Attorney's office for the disappearance of Kathy, who had been declared legally dead by a New York court several years earlier. Okay. Under the circumstances, it would seem odd that Durst would want to attract any attention or scrutiny, but that's exactly what he did. In fact, Durst was downright enthusiastic in his acceptance of Jarecki's offer to work on a project together about his life and legal troubles.

[Ash]

The Jinx.

[Elena]

He's in the middle of this shit. And he was like, let's go, girls.

[Ash]

Attention.

[Elena]

Yeah. The result of their collab was 2015's the Jinx, the Life and deaths of Robert Durst. It was a Six episode miniseries on hbo, and it covered, among other things, the disappearance of Kathie Durst, the murder of Susan Berman, the death of Morris Black. Assembled from more than 25 hours of interview footage, the Jinx also tells the story of Durst's troubled relationship with his own family, and includes extensive and mostly unflattering interviews with his brother Douglas, who offers a counter narrative to that of Durst himself. Jarecki said, certainly the things he's been accused of are tabloid worthy, but what's clear about Bob if you spend five minutes with him is that he's a deeply complicated person who cannot be summarized in a simple way. Huh. I guess you could say that, yeah. When the jinx premiered in February 2015, it was an immediate hit. I was one of those viewers. Same, not only because of the sensational story, but also because of Durst being so fucking bizarre.

[Ash]

He's a weird guy.

[Elena]

There was never any question as to whether Durst was directly involved in the making of the series. He was.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Which is why his comments throughout the film are surprising and at times even.

[Ash]

Suspicious, because it's almost like he forgets that he's directly involved.

[Elena]

Yeah. In fact, throughout the six episodes, Durst seems both aware of how his quirks and personality tics are perceived, and yet completely oblivious to the fact that much of what comes out of his mouth could be interpreted as thinly veiled admissions of guilt.

[Ash]

Yup.

[Elena]

Like, you're just like, what's going on?

[Ash]

Some of them not even veiled at all.

[Elena]

Throughout the series, Robert Durst maintains that he didn't kill his wife or Susan Berman, despite what people think. Think. And Jareki does little to question or challenge him on it. Then the series concludes with what appears to be nothing short of a fucking bombshell admission.

[Ash]

A full blown confession.

[Elena]

I remember watching this on my couch in our apartment.

[Ash]

Yup.

[Elena]

And John and I were like, what the.

[Ash]

I watched it right after you, because I'm pretty sure you texted me and you were like, you need to watch this. Like, holy. See, this is before we started the podcast, and that's the kind of shit we used to be like, holy shit.

[Elena]

I was like, you gotta see this. So in the sixth episode's final moments, Jarecki and Durst finish an interview during which Durst seemed to have trouble controlling his burping. Yeah, it's burping a lot. And Durst excuses himself to go to the bathroom. Alone in the bathroom, still miked, seemingly unaware that he is still miked and he's still being recorded Durst begins talking to himself. He was known to do that since childhood. This was not something new.

[Ash]

It's so unsettling, though.

[Elena]

Some of what he says you can't understand. It's unintelligible. He can very clearly be heard saying, what the hell did I do? Killed them all. Of course.

[Ash]

And that's where my of course comes from.

[Elena]

Of course. Every time Ash says of course, I just think of of course. It's just the way he says. He says, what the hell did I do? Kill them all, of course.

[Ash]

Of course.

[Elena]

This is similar to the motherfucking sandwich that he didn't need to go steal.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

In the apartment that he didn't need to go back to.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

Why the fuck are you saying this out loud to yourself during filming of a fucking documentary?

[Ash]

He just can't help himself.

[Elena]

He literally is compulsive. Like, he has to do these things. It's insane.

[Ash]

It's like he can't fight it.

[Elena]

It's the same kind of. But he has a pattern of this shit. He does every reason to not do that thing.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And that. There's no nothing compelling him to do it. Like, you do not need to do that.

[Ash]

There's just. Yes.

[Elena]

Easy peasy lemon squeezy. To not go to a Wegmans and steal that sandwich. Just pay for it. To not go back to that apartment.

[Ash]

You don't live there.

[Elena]

Say out loud, I killed them all, of course.

[Ash]

And also, how do you defend.

[Elena]

I'm glad he did.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I'm glad he did. But I'm just saying, like, whoa.

[Ash]

Like, also, like, how do you get a lawyer after that? So.

[Elena]

So this confession shocked all of us.

[Ash]

Sure did.

[Elena]

In part because just one day before the episode aired, Robert Durst was arrested in connection with Susan Berman's death. The arrest seemed to confirm what viewers heard on the tape. That Robert Durst killed Kathie Durst and Susan Berman.

[Ash]

Yup.

[Elena]

However, the timing raised more than a few questions. More importantly, the interview footage for the series had been recorded over a period of years leading up to the release of the movie or the series. In that case, Andrew Jarecki and the producers of the Jinx would have known about the confession and had said nothing to investigators. Oh, yeah. There was also the matter of some evidence that Jarecki had been given by Susan Berman's friend, including a letter to Susan from Durst, in which the handwriting appears identical to that of the cadaver letter sent to the police, right down to the misspelling of Beverly. Oh, so it got A little messy.

[Ash]

I didn't realize that was a part of this all.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, this whole thing didn't just make the team behind the Jinx look bad. It made them look slightly complicit, which is, like, not good at all.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, you can't hold that stuff just to get audience reactions, and you would.

[Ash]

Have gotten it either way.

[Elena]

That's what it made it look like. So the truth was a little more complicated. To be fair, according to Smerling, Jarecki and the producers were seriously conflicted when they received the evidence. For one thing, their lawyers informed them if they turned the evidence over too soon, its validity could easily be challenged in court and jeopardize any trial.

[Ash]

Okay. So they didn't want to fuck anything up.

[Elena]

It was also the matter of their journalistic integrity. Which is a thing.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

That is, if they went directly to the police, they would not only be disclosing several sources, they would. Which is really bad.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But they would also be very likely be called to testify in court, which would surely affect their reputations as trusted.

[Ash]

Journalists, and that's really tough.

[Elena]

In the end, humanity did win out. Smerling told a reporter, we had a moral obligation and an obligation to the families of the dead to see that justice was done.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

In fact, it turned out that the producers behind the miniseries had been cooperated with investigators since 2013, two years before the Jinx premiered.

[Ash]

Okay. So it was like a hole.

[Elena]

It was a hole thing at first. I remember it being a thing where everyone was like, oh, my God, like, you held this. But in the end, they.

[Ash]

Not really.

[Elena]

They did what they could do.

[Ash]

Yeah. You know, within their parameters.

[Elena]

There was also the matter of the supposed confession, like, the whole matter of the confession itself, which, it turned out, was also a little more complicated than it appeared. Like many aspects of filmmaking, in real life, things weren't exactly as they appeared to be on screen. Durst's statement about having killed them all was real, but the audio recording of him captured in the bathroom was actually a lot longer. In Like a Little Stranger, the full recording of Der Smuttering is this. Oh, there it is. You're caught. You're right, of course. But you can't imagine they want to talk to him. That's good. I find them very frightening, and I do not want to talk to them. I don't know the washer. Well, I don't know what you expected to get, but. And then it says the rest of. And you can't hear. Don't know what's in the house. Oh, I want this. Killed them all. Of course I want to do something new. There's nothing new about that. What a disaster. He was right, I was wrong. And the burping. I'm having difficulty with the questions. What the hell did I do?

[Ash]

The burping and the burping. Sorry. I'm a child. He's a strange fellow. What the fuck? And the burping.

[Elena]

So, to me, that's a man who knows he's caught, knows what he's done.

[Ash]

And he's like, fuck knows.

[Elena]

He's pretty much given himself. Like, he's like.

[Ash]

Like, to me, that literally translates into fuck.

[Elena]

That's fuck, period.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So the producers of the Jinx had used some slightly deceptive editing to present an incoherent and, you know, kind of unintelligible statement, as though it were just a very clear cut. Confession of murder.

[Ash]

I mean, you're making a film.

[Elena]

Well, that's it. So it's like you. I. I understand. So when the dust had settled and Jarecki was able to address viewers and critics concerns and accusations of complicity, things look far less damning than they had previously appeared, but it's still pretty damning. I think he's still pretty damning, but luckily it didn't look as damning on the filmmakers.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah. And that's what I mean.

[Elena]

Yeah. You mean Robert Durst. Yeah, that's right. Just to be clear, Robert Durst had been arrested for Berman's murder, and as it turned out, that arrest wasn't entirely unconnected to his appearance in the Jinx. Yeah. So based on the information provided to them by the producers of the Jinx, investigators were able to get an arrest warrant for Durst's arrest, and he was picked up a few days later at a hotel in New Orleans, Louisiana. Oh, shit. Where he'd registered under the name Everett Ward.

[Ash]

Huh.

[Elena]

Around this time, local authorities had received complaints about Durst after he was seen confusedly wandering around the hotel lobby and talking to himself.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Turned out that was only the latest in a series of very strange incidents involving Robert Durst.

[Ash]

That checks.

[Elena]

A few years earlier, he was tried and acquitted of violating restraining orders taken out by his family members.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Just a few months after the acquittal, he was arrested at a drugstore in Houston after he was witnessed urinating on a candy rack.

[Ash]

That's a dick move.

[Elena]

Real dick move. A charge to which he pleaded no contest in an incident his lawyer successfully argued was a medical incident.

[Ash]

Nothing's medical about that, babe.

[Elena]

I'm Just confused how you whip your dick out during a medical emergency.

[Ash]

I don't know. And on the candy.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's fucked up. At the time of his arrest in New Orleans on the murder charge, federal agents found a large amount of circumstantial evidence suggesting he was planning to flee the country. Among other things, items found in his possession included a loaded.38 caliber pistol.

[Ash]

Jesus Christ.

[Elena]

Robert's passport and birth certificate, a fake driver's license, maps of the southern US And Cuba.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

A large amount of cash, and flesh colored latex, latex masks. At the time of the arrest, the cash had been divided up into smaller quantities and placed in envelopes, which investigators believe were going to be sent to whichever location Durst planned to flee to a belief that Robert didn't deny.

[Ash]

What a life.

[Elena]

Yeah. Given the confused state he was in at the time, Robert was transferred to a secure facility where he would be treated for mental health issues before being processed by the courts, though, following that announcement, Durst's lawyer refuted the claims that his client had mental health issues, stating, quote, he is not suicidal. And it's like, yeah, I don't think that's what we're really worried about here.

[Ash]

I think there's a few other things on the list.

[Elena]

Robert Durst had always been a peculiar, quirky man.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

But at the time of his arrest in 2015, questions about his mental health had become common. Whenever his name came up.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Just a few months earlier, Douglas Durst gave his brother gave an interview to the New York Post in which he detailed some of his brother's bizarre behavior over the years. He said, before the disappearance of my sister in law, Bob had a series of Alaskan malamutes, which is like a husky. He had seven of them, and they all died mysteriously of different things within six months of his owning them. All of them named Igor. We don't know how they died or what happened to their bodies.

[Ash]

What the fuck?

[Elena]

That's so fucked up and scary on.

[Ash]

So many different levels.

[Elena]

He had a series, seven of them. Seven Alaskan malamutes, beautiful huskies, all named Igor.

[Ash]

I'm really stuck on that piece.

[Elena]

I'm really stuck on that.

[Ash]

I'm really stuck on that piece.

[Elena]

And they all died within six months of him having them, and they were never seen again. You don't know what happened to them. What the fuck did he do to those dogs?

[Ash]

That's horrifying.

[Elena]

It's so scary.

[Ash]

And why were they all named Igor?

[Elena]

And Douglas Durst made it clear in that interview and others that he believed Robert killed the dogs as practice for when he eventually killed Kathy.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

His brother said that while Rob. Yeah. While Robert was awaiting trial for the murder of Susan Berman, investigators in New York were ramping up their reopened investigation into Kathy's disappearance, based in part on the statements and evidence collected during the making of the jinx.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

In addition to working cooperatively with the FBI and detectives in la, detectives in New York received a warrant for Durst's apartment, where they confiscated a large number of documents and other items. Uh oh. Ultimately, it took two years before Durst was deemed healthy and stable enough to participate in a trial.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

In that time, he had been treated for cancerous tumors in his throat, as well as several other health and mental health related issues. Investigators used the delay to gather more evidence against him and round up witnesses for the prosecution, many of whom many of Hume. Hume. Many of whom, at least the wealthier among them, put up serious legal battles to keep themselves out of the courtroom, though none were able to successfully avoid subpoena.

[Ash]

Good.

[Elena]

When Durst's trial finally began in 2020. Yeah.

[Ash]

It was only. Wow, that's crazy. For some reason, it feels like that was, like, way longer.

[Elena]

I know. The prosecution presented a very simple theory as to the motive for Berman's murder. According to Deputy DA John Lewin, Durst eliminated Berman because she'd agreed to cooperate with investigators reexamining the Kathie Durst case. Yeah, pretty simple.

[Ash]

I hate that. Eliminated.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's. Yeah.

[Ash]

It's so real. Like, that is what people do, but it is so scary.

[Elena]

The prosecution believed that Berman had known Durst killed Kathy in 1982 and had even helped him cover up the crime. That's what the prosecution stated. Berman's friend Nick Shaven told the jury in a pretrial hearing. Susan said to me specifically that Bob killed Kathy.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

According to Shaven, Susan loved Durst and had wanted to protect him. So she agreed to help him cover up the crime, specifically by, among other things, calling the school and pretending to be Kathy.

[Ash]

Oh, that's so fucked up.

[Elena]

And that's something Susan had disclosed to friends in the years after Kathy disappeared. So that one lingering thing that we were talking about, like who called? Yeah.

[Ash]

Who was that? Susan. That's really fucked up.

[Elena]

The problem, according to Lewin, was that while Susan Berman may have been an incredibly loyal friend to Durst, she had a reputation as someone who wasn't very good at keeping secrets. Also revealed in pre trial hearings was Berman's statement to friends that, quote, if Anything ever happens to me, Bobby did it.

[Ash]

Another person saying that.

[Elena]

Yep. Lewin didn't provide details into what exactly they believe prompted Durst to kill Berman at the time. But it's not incumbent upon the prosecution to provide motive. Instead, they offered the evidence, and that's it. Durst was known to be in California at the time of the death. Based on the testimony of Berman's friends, he had a reason to kill Susan. And they had the cadaver Beverly Hills letter that an independent analyst believed was a match for Durst handwriting. Right. Given the extent of the evidence and the fact that the story was so well known by then because of the miniseries, Durst's lawyers encouraged him to own up to having written the letter to the LAPD a few years before, a few days before Berman's death. Cause at this point, he hadn't admitted it yet.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah. This was a big turnaround for the man who so long had denied having anything to do with that note, which he claimed was an indication of something that only the killer could have known. He himself said that.

[Ash]

Ooh.

[Elena]

Still, while Durst's lawyers were willing to admit he was in the area and even in Berman's home around the time of her death and he wrote the note, they steadfastly denied that he had anything to do with the murder. They said, sure, he was in the area. He was in her home around the time of her death. He wrote a note that said cadaver at this address, but he did not do it.

[Ash]

Totally didn't kill her.

[Elena]

Nick Daguerreon told the court, what the note demonstrates is that the person who mailed it was aware there was a body at the house, not that the individual murdered Susan Berman.

[Ash]

That's a wild ass argument. That's a wild ass argument.

[Elena]

I hope he stretched before he made that for real. Durst's trial dragged on for nearly seven months, during which jurors and spectators heard a thorough overview of his personal history and the full extent of his criminal activities. The defense claimed that he had nothing to do with the Berman murder and that the prosecution was simply trying to capitalize on the popularity of an HBO miniseries. Defense attorney David Chesnoff said, we believe the absence of evidence is evidence that Bob is not guilty.

[Ash]

I don't think there's an absence of evidence.

[Elena]

The prosecutor, John Lewin, acknowledged the lack of conclusive physical evidence, but stressed that while the evidence may have been largely circumstantial, there was a lot of it, and from very reputable sources, including the defendant himself.

[Ash]

Well, Mike Circumstantial evidence is evidence nonetheless.

[Elena]

Yeah. In his opening statement, he said, it's a long and complicated story because Mr. Durst committed a lot of crimes. As you're listening, some of the most damaging aspects of this case are going to come from him.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Lewin reminded the jury, Durst wasn't just in the area when Berman died. He was in her house, which he admitted. He somehow also appeared to know there would be a body in Susan Berman's home before she was even dead. She wasn't dead yet, y' all. Which they knew because he had confessed to writing and sending the note, which was post dated before her death. Medically, they found that out, guys. In the end, the jury sided with the DA and on September 18, 2021, after more than seven hours of deliberation, Robert Durst was found guilty of the murder of his best friend Susan Berman, more than two decades earlier. Additionally, the jury found that the prosecution had successfully proved the claim of special circumstances, specifically that Durst had been, quote, lying in wait for Berman and that killing her effectively, effectively amounted to, quote, killing a witness.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Which is a pretty big deal. The following months, on October 15, Durst was back in court for sentencing and victim impact statements. Denny Marcus, one of Berman's cousins, said, I was robbed and my beautiful son was robbed of an absolutely extraordinary, brilliant person whose life was tragically and savagely taken. Before passing sentencing, Judge Mark Windham had his own statement he wanted to make, calling the murder a, quote, witness killing and a horrific crime, as well as a, quote, denial of justice. Also, Judge Windom strongly rejected the defense's request for a new trial, citing the, quote, overwhelming evidence of guilt as one of the reasons. So he's like, I don't need the physical evidence. Like, there's enough.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Finally, with all the statements out of the way, Judge Windham handed down his sentence. Life in prison without the possibility of parole.

[Ash]

Bye.

[Elena]

So the case against Robert Durst had been built on the theory that he killed Susan Berman in order to prevent her from sharing what she knew about the disappearance of Kathie Durst. Given that it had been a successful strategy, police in New York filed second degree murder charges against Durst, alleging he murdered his wife in 1982.

[Ash]

I wonder why second degree?

[Elena]

I don't know.

[Ash]

It's always confusing.

[Elena]

They might be claiming it was during, like, a fight.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

According to the lead detective on the case, Joseph Joseph Becerra, the verdict in the Berman case was only one of the factors that prompted this new filing. In addition to becerra's discussions with the LA District Attorney. He also cited, quote, conversations with numerous witnesses and observations of defendants, recorded interviews, and court testimony in related procedure proceedings. So basically, he fucked himself over. Unfortunately, Robert Durst would never see a trial for the murder of Kathy Durst. On January 10, 2022, he died from cardiac arrest at San Joaquin Hospital in California at the age of 78.

[Ash]

Oh, it's so frustrating.

[Elena]

His death in 2022 brought an end to the story of one of New York's wealthiest and most bizarre criminals. But after decades of public interest in the saga, Andrew Jarecki felt the public was entitled to their own kind of closure. In late April 2024, nine years after the Jinx aired on HBO, the cable channel aired the six episode second season of the show, which focused on Durst's life after the original series aired until his death.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

In his assessment of the second season, New York Times critic Mike Hale concluded, everyone has seen the Jinx. Everyone knows how it contributed to Durst's downfall. Everyone is in on the joke. And the wholesale intrusion of the show into its own narrative is not, in these episodes dramatic or moving. Not a great, huh? Great end.

[Ash]

Oof.

[Elena]

But that is the. That is the story.

[Ash]

It's such an interesting case. So fucking bizarre. Such a weird guy.

[Elena]

It is. Is such a twisty tourney.

[Ash]

It is.

[Elena]

He is. It's bizarre.

[Ash]

Well, because it goes on for so many decades too.

[Elena]

It took forever.

[Ash]

Yeah. And in so many places. And just I didn't realize that there was a follow up, though. Have you watched any of it?

[Elena]

I haven't watched the follow up.

[Ash]

I'd like to now. I was thinking, well, when you first started covering this, I want to rewatch the first season, but yeah, I'll definitely check out the second now.

[Elena]

Yeah, definitely, definitely check out that first season.

[Ash]

Yeah. If you haven't seen the first, you.

[Elena]

Gotta see it, because it did contribute to getting him finally where they needed him to be.

[Ash]

Me, it bums me out that there was never true justice for Kathy's murder.

[Elena]

I know. That's the thing that kills me because also, that's his wife. Where is Kathy?

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

That's the thing that bothers me the most is like, where is she? And he just died. Never telling anyone.

[Ash]

That's really.

[Elena]

And killed the only other person that might know. Like, that sucks.

[Ash]

It's really sad.

[Elena]

All I can think of those is, I mean, people said Susan Berman was not a good secret keeper. Someone know. Someone knows. You gotta say it, man.

[Ash]

You gotta tell someone.

[Elena]

You can't let Kathy Durst just go into. No, she has family, you know, not finding out where she is.

[Ash]

Yeah. That's awful.

[Elena]

Or what happened. I know.

[Ash]

Everybody deserves to be found, like actually laid to real rest.

[Elena]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ash]

Oh, what an interesting case though it is. And go check out the jinx. And we hope you keep listening.

[Elena]

And we hope you keep it weird.

[Ash]

But not so weird that as Robert Durst, because he's.

[Elena]

Yeah, don't be that weird.

[Ash]

Don't be that weird, Sam. If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus us in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.