Episode 674: The Norco Shootout

Summary

Podcast Summary: Morbid Episode 674 – The Norco Shootout

Introduction In Episode 674 of Morbid, titled "The Norco Shootout," hosts Ashley and Elena delve into one of California's most shocking and violent events—the Norco shootout. This detailed exploration uncovers the motivations, planning, execution, and catastrophic aftermath of a bank robbery that spiraled into chaos and tragedy.

Background of the Perpetrators The story centers around George Wayne Smith and Christopher Harvin, two men whose lives converged in the Cypress Parks Department in the early 1970s. Unlike typical criminals, Smith and Harvin had no prior criminal records or interactions with law enforcement. Their motivations were deeply rooted in apocalyptic beliefs, fueled by their upbringing during the Cold War era, which exposed them to constant threats of nuclear war and global instability.

Ashley [11:03]: "Both men spent their formative years right in the middle of all this social political unrest... It was a scary time."

Smith was an evangelical influenced by the Jesus Movement, interpreting the Book of Revelation literally and believing that the world was on the brink of extinction. Harvin, on the other hand, leaned towards spirituality and viewed impending doom through astrological and ecological lenses.

Planning the Robbery By 1979, financial strains and growing apocalyptic fears pushed Smith and Harvin to devise an elaborate plan to secure resources for the anticipated end times. They fortified their Miraloma, California, home into a fortified bunker, complete with high walls, razor wire, and hidden compartments. Their plan involved a meticulous bank robbery that deviated significantly from conventional methods.

Elena [21:13]: "They were looking to scare people. To terrorize people."

Execution of the Robbery On May 9, 1980, the group—comprising Smith, Harvin, and their associates Manny and Billy Delgado, along with Russ Harvin—attempted to rob the Norco branch of the Security Pacific Bank. Their plan was fraught with poor decision-making and unforeseen complications:

1. Initial Bank Attempt: The initial attempt to rob a telephone service van failed when the back compartment was unsuitable for their needs, leading them to flee without any loot.

2. Final Plan: Undeterred, they staked out the Sussec Pacific Bank in Norco, armed with an extensive arsenal including assault rifles, shotguns, grenades, and Molotov cocktails. Their strategy involved creating diversions and utilizing heavy firepower to intimidate and control the situation.

Ashley [44:30]: "But George Smith broke cardinal rule number one when he comes to bank robbery. He robbed his own bank."

The Shootout and Aftermath As the group entered the bank, chaos ensued almost immediately:

• Hostage Situation: They took several hostages, including a bank teller named Gary Hakala, whom they forced into the van as a hostage.

• Police Response: Deputy Glenn Balaski was the first officer on the scene. The robbers' aggressive actions led to a violent shootout involving multiple deputies and federal agents. The ensuing firefight was intense, resulting in the deaths of Deputy Jim Evans and Billy Delgado, Harvin's 17-year-old brother.

• Escape Attempt: The surviving robbers attempted to flee into the San Gabriel Mountains but were ultimately cornered. Manny Delgado took his own life rather than surrender, and Chris Harvin was mortally wounded during the confrontation.

Elena [71:36]: "They wanted to do it... They wanted to scare people. To terrorize people."

Legal Consequences Despite their lack of prior criminal history, Smith, Harvin, and Russ Harvin were swiftly apprehended. In a trial that lasted several months, they were convicted on 45 counts, including murder and armed robbery. Smith and Chris Harvin were sentenced to life without parole, while Russ Harvin passed away in 2019.

Ashley [69:00]: "They got all of them on 45 counts... Including two counts of murder for Billy Delgado and Jim Evans, one of their own and a police officer."

Conclusions and Reflections The Norco shootout remains a stark reminder of how extremist beliefs and poor planning can escalate ordinary criminal acts into catastrophic events. Smith and Harvin's story is not just about a failed bank robbery but also about the destructive power of apocalyptic paranoia and the devastating impact it can have on communities and individuals alike.

Elena [71:05]: "They were looking to scare people. To terrorize people."

Notable Quotes

• Ashley [11:03]: "Both men spent their formative years right in the middle of all this social political unrest... It was a scary time."
• Elena [21:13]: "They were looking to scare people. To terrorize people."
• Ashley [44:30]: "But George Smith broke cardinal rule number one when it comes to bank robbery. He robbed his own bank."
• Elena [71:05]: "They were looking to scare people. To terrorize people."

Conclusion Episode 674 of Morbid provides a comprehensive and chilling account of the Norco shootout, highlighting how unconventional motivations and irrational planning can lead to immense tragedy. Through detailed storytelling and insightful analysis, Ashley and Elena illuminate the darkest facets of human behavior and the lasting scars such events leave on society.

Transcript

[Ashley]

Hey weirdos. Before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery? It's like a secret passage to an ad free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a morbid network podcast. We get support from Amazon Prime. Hey weirdos, you know what's literally the most amazing thing ever? Amazon Prime. Listen up because this is gonna blow your minds. With prime, you get faster than lightning delivery on like everything. We're talking millions of items. Literally everything you could ever want or need. But wait, there's more. There's more than everything you could want or need. Prime Video lets you binge all those shows we're obsessed with. And Amazon Music has all the bops for your next dance party. I have been ordering a little bit on prime lately. I had to get some earplugs the other night because my husband was a snorri snore snoring. And I said please send them to me the very next day. And they did. That was great. Loved that. Whether you're a total bookworm, a gaming fanatic, or you just really like trying new things or sleeping through the night without your husband snoring waking you up, Prime's got your back. Ebooks for days, free in game goodies and everything you need to make your next DIY project from streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com prime to get more out of whatever you're into. Oh honey. One of my favorite things in the world is an edible arrangement. It's the perfect go to gift for somebody else or even yourself. I just thought I'm going to get myself one. Edible Arrangements works for any occasion. Hosting thank you, celebrating celebrations, birthdays, apologies, a pick me up treat for yourself because it's more than just fruit. It's chocolate dipped fruit arrangements. There's new dessert boards. You can even actually get fresh flowers, balloons, cookies, classic strawberries and more. Edible Arrangements is a one stop gift shop. The quality is freaking out of this world. They will leave an impression. The treats are handmade, they're fresh, they're delicious, they are impressive and I love how fast and flexible the delivery is. Options include next day, same day, that's where at. Oh actually jokes I'm at one hour delivery. Use promo code Morbid10 to save $10 on your order. Over $59. Offer ends December 31, 2024 at 11:59 Eastern Standard Time. Additional terms and Conditions apply. C. Site for details and go order yourself an edible arrangement, because I'm literally going to the second I stop talking.

[Elena]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena.

[Ashley]

I'm Ashley.

[Elena]

And this is morbid.

[Ashley]

It's morbid. And I was just whispering about my computer screen being too bright while Elena said, hey, weirdo.

[Elena]

So you might have heard that.

[Ashley]

You probably heard that.

[Elena]

You probably dead.

[Ashley]

Probably did. Peas are a little hard, actually. Currently your girl ate yesterday. Oh, wait, actually, before we get to that super duper fun tale, I feel I have, like, a big question to ask everybody. I feel like there's so many terms for falling. Yeah.

[Elena]

This is something we've learned over the last few days.

[Ashley]

Like, I eat is one of them. Like, I didn't eat actual. I fell. And then there's also took a digger, which I say a lot. Like, oh, she took a digger.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

I've had some people look at me like, I'm like.

[Elena]

Like, they're like, what do you mean.

[Ashley]

She what you what? It's like, fell, fell. Everybody took a digger.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Ate anything else? What else?

[Elena]

Took a digger? Took a digger ass over.

[Ashley]

Tea kettle, I love. But anyway, so, yeah, we were at the Celtics game last night. Elena was nice enough to take me.

[Elena]

Woo.

[Ashley]

It's too soon to talk about.

[Elena]

Yeah, it was not.

[Ashley]

Not a banner game.

[Elena]

My guy was out in the first. The first like 13 minutes of the game.

[Ashley]

My guy was killing it.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So. But on the way there, I tripped up the stairs and I really thought I had saved myself. I was like, oh, okay, we're fine. Nope. Momentum. I put my hands out. Luckily, it wasn't on, like, the actual concrete. There's like a carpeted stair area that I was lucky enough to fall on, which is also disgusting. Yeah. But, yeah, I put my hands out, but it was still too, too late in the game. So my face skidded onto the carpet. My. Like, my lip did my upper lip. And then my teeth kind of like. Like my teeth, like, bit into my top lip and like, took a chunk. Yeah. But I didn't bleed at all.

[Elena]

No, she didn't. And it was.

[Ashley]

It was so funny.

[Elena]

And here I am coming at you from the other point of view. One of the funniest things I've seen in a while. I made sure she was okay. Through laughs. I made sure she was okay.

[Ashley]

No, that's fair.

[Elena]

But there was a whole shit ton of people in that stairwell.

[Ashley]

Oh my God. That was all I was thinking about the entire. There was. Well, there was a few thoughts running through my Head. But that was like one of the main ones. I was like, oh my God. Nobody asked me if I'm okay because I don't want to talk to you.

[Elena]

Thank you to the people of Boston. Thank you to the people who were at the TD Bank Garden last night at the Celtics game. All suffered together because Boston. And then you guys did us a solid and you did not ask Ash if she was okay. You just cleared the out of that stairwell.

[Ashley]

No, because Boston is the one of the only places where you'll ask someone if they're okay and they'll tell you to off like, so nice. I don't want you to ask me if I'm okay right now because I'm horrified.

[Elena]

Yeah, I'm mortified right now.

[Ashley]

Mortified.

[Elena]

I, I, that was great. I looked around and I said, wow, everyone cleared out. And then I said, are you okay? And she was holding her mouth and I said, if you spit out a tooth, I'm gonna ask you to put that back in so we can see the playoffs.

[Ashley]

And I would have, but she wasn't.

[Elena]

She wasn't missing a tooth. She wasn't bleeding, but it was one of those falls that's like slow motion. And I said, oh, she's going. And then I had no time. Even though it was slow motion, I had no time to do anything about.

[Ashley]

It because it was slow motion and so fast.

[Elena]

It was. Because then once her hands hit the ground, she, the momentum just took her into like, you know, kind of like a crow pose. Like. No, my, like a non consensual crow pose that she did not intend to go into. But then her face hit floor instead of yoga mat.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And it was, it was something.

[Ashley]

It was something. So now I have like a blood blister on the inside of my lip and like one side of my lip is like a little swollen.

[Elena]

I know, I feel bad.

[Ashley]

I mean, I'm not in any pain whatsoever. It's just like annoying.

[Elena]

It was an omen for the game.

[Ashley]

I know.

[Elena]

Because, you know, they, they, some of them did their best. Some of them did, they all did their best. I think it was just an off night. But that's okay. Cause I mean, for all the non sports people, we're just in the second round of the, of the playoffs. We're playing the New York Knicks, which, like, right. Angry. So anytime I saw a Knicks player pop up. To any of our listeners who are a Knicks fan, a Knicks fan, any of our listeners who are Knicks fans, like, we're in a fight.

[Ashley]

Listen, we, we Love you always. Except at the TD Garden.

[Elena]

Except during the playoffs.

[Ashley]

That's our house.

[Elena]

When I don't love you.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Anytime I saw one of them pop up to cheer, I was like, sit the fuck down. But. But it's okay. We had a blast.

[Ashley]

We had so much fun.

[Elena]

I hope Kristaps Porzingis feels better, because that's my favorite player and he got sick.

[Ashley]

I hope they play Pritchard more next game, because they should have.

[Elena]

It was sad. It was sad. I knew he was sick. I know him. I know him. I know Kristaps. I don't. But I know him.

[Ashley]

My old friend Kristoff.

[Elena]

So as soon as he came out, I said, oh, he's sweaty. And he was sick. So hopefully he's better for Game 2, because we need him.

[Ashley]

I think it's just a tummy thing.

[Elena]

I think it was a tummy thing.

[Ashley]

By the time this comes out, you'll know who won everything.

[Elena]

I'm sure you listen, Kristaps. So I hope you feel better.

[Ashley]

Hey. Hey. Well.

[Elena]

But, yeah, that was our sports night.

[Ashley]

I know. I don't like any other sports, but Elena's made me a basketball fan.

[Elena]

Celtics are. The Celtics are just fun.

[Ashley]

It's really fun.

[Elena]

That team. Don't worry, we'll stray away from this, because I'm sure a lot of people are like, I don't give a shit. The Celtics team is just, like, a really likable group of dudes, and they all, like, volunteer at Boston Children's Hospital and they protest for great things, and they're a likable group of dudes, so they're easy to love.

[Ashley]

We'll keep them.

[Elena]

If you're looking for a team to love, love the Celtics.

[Ashley]

And if you think that you don't like sports, try basketball. Yeah, it's fun. All right. Never did I ever think we'd have a sports discussion on this show.

[Elena]

Hey, there's a first for everything.

[Ashley]

But I have a really interesting case today. Dave found this shout out to my boy David. David. It's still sports coded.

[Elena]

I can hear Dave right now being.

[Ashley]

Like, no, don't do that.

[Elena]

Don't do that.

[Ashley]

He's like, never do that again. He's like, that was too much.

[Elena]

We're like, come on, David.

[Ashley]

Go team. Okay, David. We just, like, hit his butt. He's like, this is. This is a felony.

[Elena]

This is assault.

[Ashley]

He's like, I work for you. Stop. Where's hr? Okay. Anyway, we're gonna talk about the Norco shootout today. Hell, yeah, we are. Which is Fascinating. I hope I don't come off as, like, super fucking ignorant right now. I had never heard of this.

[Elena]

No, it's okay. Not everybody's heard of everything. I've only.

[Ashley]

I've heard of so much.

[Elena]

I've heard of the term the Nor. I've heard of, like, that. The Norco shootout.

[Ashley]

Like, it's like how everybody knows Waco.

[Elena]

You know, I did not know any of the details of this, so I am in the same boat as you.

[Ashley]

Okay. I'm so happy to hear that.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

We're ignorant bitches together.

[Elena]

In a boat.

[Ashley]

Okay, well, did you say in our boat? In a boat. In a boat. I'm surprised you put yourself in a boat.

[Elena]

It's an ignorance boat. So. So I didn't even know I was getting into it. I was ignorant to that. So.

[Ashley]

The Norco shootout and the robbery that initiated it are among the most shocking and violent events in California's history, which is why they have achieved a certain level of notoriety throughout the years. Except to me, however, while the acts themselves are usually the focus of discussion, it's really the men who committed the crimes that made it especially surprising and notable. They are interesting. Not in a good way, but they're fascinating people. George Wayne Smith and Christopher Harvin, the men who planned the heist, they weren't members of any kind of real criminal organization. They also weren't even really desperate for, like, quick cash. It wasn't like they needed to pay for something or were in dire straits or anything like that.

[Elena]

Which is usually where these all begin.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Like, you've all seen the cheerleader movie where they steal money.

[Elena]

What's that called? Sugar and Spice. Sugar and Spice.

[Ashley]

Yeah. I'm gonna watch that.

[Elena]

I love that movie.

[Ashley]

I love that movie.

[Elena]

That's a movie.

[Ashley]

But, in fact, they actually had no criminal record and really didn't have any interactions with law enforcement in their past.

[Elena]

Huh.

[Ashley]

Which is wild.

[Elena]

That's craz.

[Ashley]

So why did they plan this elaborate robbery? Well, they were devout members of an apocalyptic sect of Christianity.

[Elena]

There it is.

[Ashley]

Who were convinced that the world was coming to an end.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ashley]

And they thought they were going to need resources in order to survive the end of civilization as they knew it.

[Elena]

That just makes sense.

[Ashley]

It does.

[Elena]

It just like when you said that, I was like, yeah, that's the only other reason you would do that.

[Ashley]

There is only, like, one, I think. I don't know if it was a TV show or a movie made about this. There's only one. It was made in, like, 2006.

[Elena]

That's crazy.

[Ashley]

And then there was gonna be a movie, but it doesn't look like it ever came to fruition.

[Elena]

What are they waiting for?

[Ashley]

I would like to watch this. And by the end of this story, you will too, because. Wow. Interesting.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ashley]

So, as author Peter Houlihan points out, both George Smith and Christopher Harvin were part of the first generation to live their entire lives under the threat of nuclear war. As kids, they spent their lives overhearing hushed conversations going on among adults about potential nuclear strikes, advanced weaponry, and of course, the col war. And at the same time, the 60s and the early 70s was, as we all know, a time of revolution in various countries throughout the world. The front pages of newspapers had photographs of armed guerrilla fighters in South America, headlines about hijacked airplanes bound for Cuba. Like there was a lot going on. It was a scary time.

[Elena]

Yeah. And that's traumatizing. It is.

[Ashley]

Houlihan, who wrote Norco 80, the True Story of the most spectacular bank robbery in American history, said the key takeaway for both was simple. We're all gonna die.

[Elena]

Which is traumatizing.

[Ashley]

It is traumatizing for sure. Now, having been born in the mid to late 1950s in Northern California, both men spent their formative years right in the middle of all this social political unrest. And by the time they'd come of age, violent revolution wasn't just an abstract concept to them. It was regularly being discussed in bars and college campuses as a path forward to a new future. Yeah. Which is scary.

[Elena]

That's horrifying.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I can't imagine.

[Ashley]

It's very dystopian, very. Now, in 1973, George Smith had just returned from two years in Germany where he trained as an artilleryman in the US Army. His experience in Eastern Europe gave him insight into what life under an authoritarian regime pretty much looked like. And as an American, it was a very eye opening experience for him.

[Elena]

Oh, I'm sure.

[Ashley]

So he was very happy to be in the US again and out of the army, but all at the same time, he felt directionless and was looking for some kind of purpose, something to give his life meaning. Eventually, he found that meaning within the Jesus movement, which was very big at the time.

[Elena]

The Jesus movement.

[Ashley]

It was straight up called the Jesus movement.

[Elena]

You know that. I mean, that. That really sells you on what it is.

[Ashley]

Jesus moves.

[Elena]

Yeah, they don't bury the lead on that.

[Ashley]

They don't. It was a group of young people like himself, who were somewhat conservative, but they also embraced the politics of, like, counterculture hippie Kind of people and maintained a health. Distrust of authority, which I'm sure he had after he left Germany.

[Elena]

Oh, I'm sure.

[Ashley]

All things considered, the preachers within the Jesus movement really weren't that different from other born again Christian preachers. But they have put a strong emphasis on the book of Revelations and specifically its end time prophecies.

[Elena]

I don't know if you guys have read that one.

[Ashley]

I have not. But I have heard some of the end time prophecies and they actually scare the out of me.

[Elena]

They're really scary.

[Ashley]

And I'm not even like a big God galaxy.

[Elena]

No, I, I looked into it a little bit when we were interview interviewing Tobias Forge.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Elena]

Because like, why not? And it's got a lot, it's got a lot going on.

[Ashley]

Yeah. There's like trumpet men, there's horses. Oh, yeah, there's. It's, it's not great. It could be agony. If it wouldn't be fun, if it happened, I'd leave.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

But for somebody who believes strongly in these predictions, unlike ourselves, like George Smith did, the signs of the coming apocalypse were all around them every day on a global scale. The Cold War threats of nuclear war were ever present. So was the social unrest that was occurring in countries all over the world. And closer to home, there was a lot of political and social divisions over everything. Like there still is. Race, gender, class, everything.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

And it seemed to be pushing Americans closer and closer to the edge. And at the same time, industrial pollution was making the Earth's pretty much uninhabitable.

[Elena]

So.

[Ashley]

Yeah, just slowly.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

To George, who had been trained to interpret these prophecies by the Calvary Baptist Church, everything seemed to be lining up just as it was described in Revelations. And that coupled with his time in the military and his experience with military grade weaponry. Not only did he know that the end of times were coming, but he also knew precisely how and with what weapons it would be fought. Ooh, scary. Now, for Christopher Harvin, things were a little bit different. Still very dire and very apocalyptic, but different.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ashley]

Like George, he saw the signs of the impending apocalypse everywhere. But as somebody whose beliefs leaned more in the direction of like spirituality versus actual religion. Like organized religion.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

He took a less biblical form of things.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ashley]

According to Peter Houlahan, Harvin viewed signs of impending social collapse in the alignment of the planets, predictions of cataclysmic overpopulation, ecological disaster, and an array of other doomsday scenarios that gained traction during the decade.

[Elena]

I hate that.

[Ashley]

Yeah, it's. It's very interesting how in, like, very different groups of people, everyone is predicting the apocalypse in some way.

[Elena]

Yeah. Because it's everyone's biggest fear.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

It's just like the biggest fear you can think of.

[Ashley]

It is.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Now, Chris and George somehow met in 1973. They were both working for the Cypress Parks Department. They both had grown up pretty similarly, but they did have very different personalities. According to Houlihan, George was evangelical, engaging, and outgoing. Chris Harvin was more stoner than seeker, a burnout rather than a believer.

[Elena]

All right.

[Ashley]

I love how he wrote that. Like George, Chris had also joined the army right out of high school, but his behavior and his attitude got him kicked out after just two months.

[Elena]

Oh, damn.

[Ashley]

So you can see the differences between them.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

But also how they aligned on a lot of the scarier topics that they like to talk about. Yeah.

[Elena]

Which is a little creepy because it's like they had the same idea, just different methods of getting there. Basically.

[Ashley]

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[Elena]

Damn.

[Ashley]

Now, Chris believed. So obviously George believes that it's like a biblical thing. It's going to be like in how they say it in the book, the.

[Elena]

Trumpets and all that. In the four horsemen.

[Ashley]

Exactly.

[Elena]

Apocalypse.

[Ashley]

Exactly. Chris, though this is interesting and I kind of want to look more into it later. He believed that the end of the world or the apocalypse would come as a result of what he called the Jupiter effect, which would happen during a rare alignment of planets that would result in major tidal shifts and eventually a massive earthquake that would, you know, it would just tip everything right off the scale. George's vision of the end of the world, like I said, was more biblical. After the Rapture, which he believed would happen in 1981, the world would be thrust into seven days of Armageddon and everybody would be scrambling for safety.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ashley]

So, you know, for three years, they spent their days talking about that. Talking.

[Elena]

That's healthy.

[Ashley]

Yeah, totally. Talking about how they'd survived that, how they would survive it, what types of resources and knowledge they would need to just get through this impending apocalypse. Chris, like I said, he wasn't religious. And he also wasn't exactly what one would consider a follower. But George was engaging and very persuasive when he talked about his beliefs. And since Chris was already in that headspace, he was drawn deeper and deeper into George's paranoid fantasies and started to take them on himself.

[Elena]

That makes sense. That could happen.

[Ashley]

Yeah. You're spending all your time with this person and you do believe in one thing so wholeheartedly together.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Like, it's so funny.

[Elena]

You can understand why that group thing can happen. I mean, you see it happen all the time and you never think it could happen to you, but yep, there it is.

[Ashley]

So Chris actually left the Cypress parks department in 1976. He wanted to find a place, a job closer to home. He had expected George would join him since their boss really seemed to hate George. But George stayed on for a few more years for whatever reason, and in the meant, in the meantime, they remained incredibly close. And in 1979. They scraped together enough money for a $5,000 down payment on a small house in Miraloma, California. And they financed a $56,000 VA loan taken out in George's name.

[Elena]

Jeez.

[Ashley]

This would be their home base. They were moving in together and it was going to be the shelter that they would fortify and that would protect them from the coming apocalypse.

[Elena]

It's getting a little scary.

[Ashley]

So they're moving in together.

[Elena]

I don't like that.

[Ashley]

And creating basically like a bunker.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah. That's just an echo chamber of delusion and paranoia.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That obviously does not end well.

[Ashley]

Not healthy.

[Elena]

No, no, no.

[Ashley]

So Miraloma is in Riverside county and it's just about 45 miles away from LA. It's always been a relatively working class town. Neighbors are said to be pretty friendly. Most people take pride in their, the home's appearance. And that's exactly why George and Chris stuck out. One neighbor told a reporter bluntly, they were weirdos. I mean, which like, usually I'd be mad at. But they're ready.

[Elena]

There's a certain like weirdo that. It's where you put that emphasis on it. I feel like we said they were weirdos. Like that's bad.

[Ashley]

You guys like us are like weirdos.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

They're fucking weirdos.

[Elena]

They're apocalyptic.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You know, that's different.

[Ashley]

Just wait. They let their lawn grow out and they rarely tended to it. Which is one thing that's like annoying. But here's the real kicker. They built a 10 foot high fence around the backyard basically to prevent anybody from seeing what they were doing back there. The fence was supported by 3ft of fiberglass and cinder block. And George ran concertina razor wire around the top to keep people out. Wow. And should anybody make it past that razor wire. The two men had hammered hundreds of carpet tacks to the sides, sharp side up, so that anything that came into contact or like tried to hop over that fence would be shredded.

[Elena]

Whoa. Yeah. Whoa.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Just imagine like hearing, like hearing the construction of that and then seeing it erected.

[Elena]

That's a lot. I just, you know, I mean I'd be like, that's your business. Like you want to keep people out. Yeah, you, that's your, that's your choice.

[Ashley]

I'd be so nervous.

[Elena]

But that's the thing. It's like I would be like, that is like you go off, go off. Like I get it. Keep everyone out. A lot of people suck.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But this would make me nervous. It would not make me feel like you were someone that was approachable around. Like, I'd feel like you were a dangerous person. It's the paranoia for me, I think that's where it takes me is like, the paranoia takes me into, like, you might be unhinged.

[Ashley]

Yes, definitely.

[Elena]

You know, that goes past having, like, a. A gate or, like, a security system.

[Ashley]

It's also just real bold. Like, yeah, I want to put up a fence, but I'm nervous that it's going to, like, rub my neighbors the wrong way.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Meanwhile, like, they put up a fence with barbed wire essentially on the top of it.

[Elena]

Yeah, they. They just said, we don't give a.

[Ashley]

Fuck, and it was 10ft tall.

[Elena]

That's wild.

[Ashley]

10Ft tall. That's really insane.

[Elena]

Yeah. I mean, they obviously don't have an hoa.

[Ashley]

It's taller than Kristaps Porzingis.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ashley]

It's taller than him.

[Elena]

I hope you're feeling better.

[Ashley]

Full circle. So the fence was mostly successful at protecting their privacy, but on one occasion, a very brave, loose dog managed to knock one of the boards free. So neighbors got a rare glimpse into the backyard. Luckily, it sounds like he just bumped into it.

[Elena]

Okay. I was like, don't go in there.

[Ashley]

In my version of events, he's fine.

[Elena]

Yeah, he is.

[Ashley]

But. So people were able to peek into the backyard.

[Elena]

Oh, damn.

[Ashley]

I would.

[Elena]

I'd.

[Ashley]

Oh, I'd be right.

[Elena]

Got to look.

[Ashley]

Piece against fence.

[Elena]

You're making a big stink of keeping it private. I want to know what it is.

[Ashley]

I need to know.

[Elena]

You should have been a little more subtle about that.

[Ashley]

Yeah, 100%. One neighbor said, I seen them digging. They got a big hole. I know. Insert all the jokes here, but, like, why are they digging a big hole?

[Elena]

That's not okay.

[Ashley]

It's not. I'm very. You're 12.

[Elena]

About that.

[Ashley]

According to more neighbors, George and Chris started what sounded like a construction project in the backyard around April 1980. For days, all neighbors heard was the sound of digging all throughout the day and the night.

[Elena]

Okay. That would piss me off.

[Ashley]

That would piss me off.

[Elena]

That's when I would get pissed off.

[Ashley]

And then it just abruptly stopped one day.

[Elena]

Was anybody calling anybody? I don't. I don't know what you would say, really, because I don't know what they're. If they're doing anything wrong. Like, I don't know if they're adhering to noise.

[Ashley]

Noise regulations in the 80s. Probably not.

[Elena]

I don't know. I don't know when that should start.

[Ashley]

I'm not sure.

[Elena]

I just. I'm Like, I don't know. Don't start digging big holes in your backyard unless you have, like, something like a pool that's gonna go in there.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Do it during the day, you know, like something that you can show after and be like, this is why we did that.

[Ashley]

Yeah, come on over and swim in our pool.

[Elena]

Not even, like, see that?

[Ashley]

You said, no.

[Elena]

Like, no, don't come over. But here, you know that big hole I was digging that made you all nervous? This is what that was for. Don't come over. You're not welcome. But that's what that was for.

[Ashley]

I also wonder if people were just like. I mean, I don't wonder. People were afraid of them for sure. So that's probably why they didn't call.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

You know what I mean?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So the fence kept out anybody who might take an interest in the greenhouse full of marijuana that they were cultivating in the backyard.

[Elena]

Oh, that.

[Ashley]

But it also served to shield from view the larger project that they'd been working on, because you don't put your marijuana operation in a large hole.

[Elena]

Of course you don't.

[Ashley]

Neighbors didn't know it at the time, but what Chris and George were doing was building, you guessed it, a bunker in the backyard.

[Elena]

There it is.

[Ashley]

George had come up with the idea a few months earlier. They were going to dig a tunnel leading from the garage to the backyard bunker so that they wouldn't have to go outside in the event of, you know, an inevitable assault on their compound.

[Elena]

I mean, okay.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Yeah. The bunker they were planning would be stocked with food, water, all the essentials, and enough firepower to hold off an army, should it come to that, which they, of course, believed it would.

[Elena]

Yeah, this is getting scary.

[Ashley]

Oh, just wait. Now, there's no way of knowing at what exact point Chris and George's fantasies turned into, like, a dangerous reality, but it seems that 1979 was a critical year for both of them. In August 1979, George actually got fired from his job with Cypress Parks Department, and he started collecting unemployment. Not long after, Chris also became unemployed. And they just spent all day at that point talking, strategizing, coming up with plans on how to fortify the house.

[Elena]

That's not good, man. Yeah, that is not good.

[Ashley]

Now, losing his job and becoming fully absorbed in violent fantasies was the last straw for George's wife. Yeah, he's married everybody.

[Elena]

Sorry.

[Ashley]

And they have a child.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ashley]

Yeah. A few months later, his wife took their daughter and left the house in George behind.

[Elena]

Oh, man.

[Ashley]

Neighbor Anna Grimley, or grimly, told A reporter, she said she was going home to her mother.

[Elena]

I mean, good for her.

[Ashley]

Yeah, she said, we're gonna.

[Elena]

Yeah, you get the fuck out of there. That is no place for a child.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Losing his job then his wife and his daughter, though, seemed to be the stressor that pushed George Smith from being, you know, an evangelical guy with dark fantasies and to being a fully delusional man with violent plans.

[Elena]

Oh, that sucks.

[Ashley]

It does. By the end of 1979, Chris's wife Lonnie also moved out of the house, taking their young son with her because he also was married with a child.

[Elena]

Why are you two parents?

[Ashley]

So many people are parents that should not be.

[Elena]

So many people are parents now.

[Ashley]

Unlike George, though, Chris's reaction to his wife and child's departure was a lot more reasonable. In a conversation with his mother, he told her he felt like his life was going down the tubes. So he got why he's going down the tubes. Of course they lost.

[Elena]

He's probably like, why wouldn't they leave?

[Ashley]

Yeah, it's weird. He was weirdly rational in some ways, but in a lot of other ways, not so much at all.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

But that feeling became even stronger when a few months later, he lost his job and apparently any motivation he had to continue participating in society.

[Elena]

Awesome.

[Ashley]

At that time, Anna grimly said, sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. They sleep in the day and they go out all night and they never talk to anybody.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, I don't like that.

[Ashley]

So by the spring of 1980, Chris and George were just barely getting by. They were working odd jobs here and there, and when they couldn't find work, they just collected unemployment. By that point, Chris's brother Russ had also moved in with them, but he too was unemployed more often than not and barely contributed to the household budget.

[Elena]

Damn, this is going really well.

[Ashley]

Yeah, it's really not. Their collective financial situation had important implications in their future plans. George had already started to scrap his idea for buying a cabin in the Utah mountains should the apocalypse come.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ashley]

But now, with the mortgage severely overdue, it was beginning to look like they might end up losing the house that they had worked so hard to fortify into this fucking apocalyptic bunker.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ashley]

And without their bunker, the likelihood of surviving the apocalypse seemed low. And for George, that was unthinkable. So one afternoon in late spring, Chris was sitting at the kitchen table when George came home with a former co worker from Cyprus, 21 year old Manny Delgado, and announced that they were planning to rob a Denny's restaurant in Corona.

[Elena]

Manny Delgado is the name of Jay and what's her name? Son in Modern Family.

[Ashley]

Okay, I thought that Jay and Gloria. Gloria.

[Elena]

I almost said Julia. I couldn't think of it.

[Ashley]

I thought that, too.

[Elena]

Manny Delgado. As soon as you said that, I.

[Ashley]

Was like, when I. I'm so happy you said that, because when I read that name, I said, I know that person.

[Elena]

You do.

[Ashley]

I know that you know that person. Well, this is a very different.

[Elena]

This is a very different Manny Delgado.

[Ashley]

He's not very in touch with his feelings.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ashley]

So very different, this Manny Delgado. You know they were gonna rob a Denny's restaurant.

[Elena]

Yeah. That's not great.

[Ashley]

Chris was like, that's stupid. If you're gonna rob anything, why wouldn't you just rob a bank?

[Elena]

I guess valid criminal thinking, you know?

[Ashley]

I guess so.

[Elena]

Not rational thinking.

[Ashley]

No. To George, robbing a Denny was just a. Robbing a Denny. Excuse me, was just a means to an end. Something that would give them enough to cover the mortgage and maybe finish building the bunker.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ashley]

But Chris was right in theory. If they were going to take a huge risk, they might as well just be more ambitious.

[Elena]

Yeah. And again, that's just criminal thinking.

[Ashley]

Yeah, Criminal thinking. For Manny, who already had one child at home and another on the way, one robbery was just as good as the other. So he was like, yeah, that's fine. I'll still do that.

[Elena]

Yeah, why not? I got a baby on the way.

[Ashley]

Like I said, different Manny.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ashley]

As for Chris, he already bought into the end times fantasies that George had been spinning for nearly a decade at this point.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ashley]

And saw no reason why they shouldn't take the risk. But there was just one thing. Chris told George. I'm not going into any bank unless we're armed up. I won't get taken alive.

[Elena]

Ooh.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That's scary.

[Ashley]

That's very scary. Oh, it's gonna get a whole lot scarier, girl.

[Elena]

Just that way of thinking.

[Ashley]

Yeah. A few weeks later, Manny Delgado quit his job at the Cypress Parks Department and told his people at work that he was moving to Arizona. Not true. He also recruited his 17 year old brother Billy to be their getaway driver. Sadly, Billy had been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis a few years earlier. Yeah, and he was 17, too.

[Elena]

So young.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And, I mean, he was even younger when he got diagnosed. He was constantly in pain, and he actually expected the disease to get even worse by his mid-20s. So according to Houlihan there, the author, he Billy, quote, figured he had nothing to lose. That makes me sad that's yeah, that's a big tragedy. With their driver in place, the men only needed one more person and they didn't have to look very far to find him. Throughout their lives, Chris Harvin and his brother Russ hadn't really been especially close. In fact, if you had to describe their relationship, someone would probably say that it was just straight up adversarial.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Ashley]

If not just plain strained. But prior to moving in with Chris and George, 26 year old Russ just lived at home with his parents and spent a lot of time hanging out in his room getting high.

[Elena]

Productive.

[Ashley]

Yeah, he's got a lot going for him. More importantly, Russ didn't share his brother's interests in new age spirituality or astrological prophecies. He also did not believe that the world was coming to an end anytime soon.

[Elena]

You know, it's niche. It is niche, you know, I understand.

[Ashley]

Yeah. So they didn't have a lot in common. But at the same time, Russ didn't really think he had anything going for him. So when Chris and George asked to help ask for his help with the bank heist, he was like, all right, damn sure.

[Elena]

The amount of people in this story that are just like, ah, you know what, we might as well rob a bank. It's like, I've never been in a place where somebody would say, do you want to go rob something? And I'm like, well, I don't have anything else going on, so I have no plan. I've been bored. I've been. I've been in a place where I didn't have a lot going on.

[Ashley]

I've been bored.

[Elena]

I've been between jobs and it wasn't ever an option.

[Ashley]

Yeah. For most people I don't think it is.

[Elena]

Yeah. Last year, Law and crime brought you the trial that captivated the nation. She's accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston police officer John o' Keefe, with her car.

[C]

Karen Reed is arrested and charged with second degree murder.

[Elena]

The six week trial resulted in anything but resolution.

[Ashley]

We continue to find ourselves at an impasse.

[Elena]

I'm declaring a mistrial in this case. But now the case is back in the spotlight and one question still lingers. Did Karen Reed kill John o' Keefe?

[Ashley]

The evidence is overwhelming that Karen Reed is innocent.

[Elena]

How does it feel to be a cop killer?

[Ashley]

Karen?

[Elena]

I'm Kristen Thorne, investigation reporter with law and Crime and host of the podcast Karen the Retrial. This isn't just a retrial. It's a second chance at the truth. I have nothing to hide. My Life is in the balance and it shouldn't be.

[Ashley]

I just want people to go back to who the victim is in this. It's not her.

[Elena]

Listen to episodes of the Retrial exclusively and ad free on Wondery.

[C]

Hey, weirdos. If Ash and Elena's episode on Ken McElroy left you wondering how someone could become so cruel, manipulative and untouchable, you'll want to hear my psychological breakdown of this case. On my podcast, Killer Psyche, I examined the twisted mindset behind McElroy's reign of terror. How he exploited fear, used charm as a weapon, and turned an entire town into his victims. Understanding what made him tick is exactly the kind of insight I bring on Killer Psyche, where I use my experience profiling criminals for the FBI to uncover what drives people like Ken McElroy to become predators. So if you're curious about the mind behind the mayhem, join me for an inside look at the psychology of a man who got away with everything until he didn't. Follow Killer Psyche on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ashley]

But the final and arguably most important piece of this plan to them was weaponry. Having both grown up in conservative and somewhat rural parts of California, and again, both having spent time in the military, Chris and George were what would appropriately be called gun enthusiasts. They like Pew Pew Pew. Did you just say dang Pew Pews?

[Elena]

They said they lack a Pew Pew.

[Ashley]

They like a Pew Pew. Even before they moved into the house together, they both already had collected a surprising number of handguns, shotguns, and hunting rifles. But as far as they were concerned, that collection still wasn't enough. Off. I'm gonna clear my throat for the next part because it's gonna take me a minute. That spring, Chris and George withdrew the rest of their savings, all of it, and went to a local gun store and picked up more weapons, including, I hope I say these. All right, I'm not a Pew Pew enthusiast, so I'm doing my best. A semi automatic handgun, a Heckler, Coke or cock. An HK93, a top of the line. 223 caliber German assault rifle similar to that used in military combat. Oh, and then a few weeks later, they returned to the store and bought a Remington 870 Wingmaster shotgun, what's more commonly known as a riot gun. Then that wasn't enough. So a week later they were back yet again and bought an uncommon, one might say, amount of ammunition, including hundreds of rounds of.223 bullets, high capacity magazines, and 40 shotgun slugs, quote, powerful enough to crack the engine block of an automobile.

[Elena]

I'm sorry, what?

[Ashley]

A month later, after working some day labor jobs, Chris went to another gun store and purchased a Colt AR15 assault rifle and a large number of 40 round high capacity magazines.

[Elena]

Did anyone at that first gun store say, huh, they're coming in a lot and buying a lot of guns?

[Ashley]

I would think so.

[Elena]

No one was sitting there being like, what you do and yeah, maybe keep an eye on that person. I'm not sure because like, what business do you have coming in, getting that much weeks apart?

[Ashley]

It's very strange.

[Elena]

I'd be concerned.

[Ashley]

It's very strange. Obviously today we would all be like, what the are you doing? You would think any day though.

[Elena]

That's a lot of guns.

[Ashley]

It is.

[Elena]

And a lot of ammo.

[Ashley]

Yeah. So with their arsenal, I would say more than fully stopped.

[Elena]

Yes. George and Chris runneth over it.

[Ashley]

Runneth over. They now turned their attention to making explosives.

[Elena]

Oh, because. Yeah, you need that too.

[Ashley]

Using recipes found in the notorious Anarchist Cookbook, they created dozens of fragmentation grenades from PVC piping and beer cans filled with gunpowder and shrapnel.

[Elena]

That's so scary.

[Ashley]

It is scary. The grenades were fashioned in such a way that they could be fired from the Remington wingmaster Shut the up. Effectively making it a grenade launcher.

[Elena]

What the. The.

[Ashley]

Yet even the addition of dozens of improvised explosives still wasn't enough for George, who still felt they needed more guns. A few days later, he returned to that first store, which I'm like, now you really got.

[Elena]

Yeah, you gotta ask that guy about this.

[Ashley]

Where he purchased a.223 rifle and this time a second Colt AR15 and a Heckler and Coke HK91, an assault rifle modeled on the AR15, but that fired larger and more destructive.30 caliber rounds.

[Elena]

The fact that no one was concerned about this is disconcerting to me.

[Ashley]

Yeah, you would say so.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So with these last purchases, they had everything they thought they needed to pull off the bank job. Finally.

[Elena]

Holy hell. Yeah.

[Ashley]

Now, interestingly, I didn't actually know this. By the 1960s, the FBI had labeled LA the bank robbery capital of the world.

[Elena]

What a title.

[Ashley]

I know. With one in every four California robberies occurring in Los Angeles County. Holy shit, that's fascinating.

[Elena]

Imagine taking a job as a. As a bank employee there.

[Ashley]

No, at this time, I cannot. According to Houlihan, this was mostly because the city had a significant number of banks and was built within a network of freeways, which made it easy to rob a bank and get away quickly.

[Elena]

Ah. That makes Sense.

[Ashley]

So all that to say, robbing a bank in the 70s and 80s was a pretty easy way to make money with relatively low risk, assuming you could get away from the scene before the police got back.

[Elena]

Which is wild.

[Ashley]

It is. It really is. By 1980, robberies had increased across America with an average of six banks being robbed each business day. Holy. Yeah. And more than 1500 banks robbed a year.

[Elena]

And now you never hear about a bank robbery.

[Ashley]

No, not at all.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So that meant, if nothing else, law enforcement officials and bank employees had gained considerable experience with robberies and now had a pro, had many protocols in place to deal with situations like that. Under the circumstances, it would have been in the gang's best interest to keep things as simple as possible and just do what other successful bank robbers did. Rob a bank in downtown la, get away from the scene as quickly as possible and disappear on the freeway headed toward one of California's more forgettable towns.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

One, two, three. Done.

[Elena]

Keep it simple, stupid.

[Ashley]

But George Smith had other plans.

[Elena]

Of course he did.

[Ashley]

In George's head, the plan was simple. In mine, it was not. The four men would enter the Norco branch of the Security Pacific bank in the afternoon while Billy waited in the getaway van outside. Each would be armed. Chris with the HK93, Russ with the Colt AR15 and George with the Heckler rifle. And Manny with the riot gun. Each man would also carry a semi automatic handgun and large amounts of ammunition just on their person in the van, Billy would have the other AR15 on the passenger seat beside him. And he too would have a handgun.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ashley]

Yeah. They had also loaded around 3,000 rounds of ammunition into a duffel bag stashed in the back of the van. As well as a dozen grenades, three Molotov cocktails and a box of beer bottles that were filled with gasoline and a detonation device. Holy. The serial numbers on the guns were all covered with black electrical tape so that they wouldn't be able to be read on the security camera footage and traced back to Chris and Joseph.

[Elena]

They really thought of everything.

[Ashley]

They did, kind of. Before heading to the Security Pacific Bank, George placed or was planning to place a small explosive under a gas main about a mile from the bank. His plan, in his head, was that before they entered the bank, he would detonate that bomb, creating a diversion to draw authorities away from the bank, giving the robbers more time to escape.

[Elena]

Which seems like it would make sense.

[Ashley]

Yes, smart in a criminal way, in theory. But there was the matter of transportation to think of. Yeah, none of them Owned a vehicle that would carry all five men.

[Elena]

Oops.

[Ashley]

And their arsenal of weapons would never be carried in a vehicle that they owned. So. And it also wouldn't carry the money that they planned to take with them. So that was a big problem.

[Elena]

That's a problem.

[Ashley]

Yeah. But Georgia's solution was that they would drive to a large parking lot several miles from the bank and just steal the first van they saw.

[Elena]

That is risky as it is. Wow.

[Ashley]

He said from there, Billy would drive the van with the rest of them in the back. The gas main explosion would occupy emergency services for hours, and that would give them ample time to escape. So that's his plan.

[Elena]

It's also crazy that there's four of them going into this bank because it's like the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

[Ashley]

Good point, dude.

[Elena]

Like, I wonder if they. They planned that.

[Ashley]

I know. Because you would think four people is, like, too many. Yeah.

[Elena]

It feels like way too many cooks in the kitchen here.

[Ashley]

Yeah, that's a. That's a very good point.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

And, like, haunting, isn't it? So according to peter houlihan, George smith broke cardinal rule number one when it comes to bank robbery. He robbed his own bank.

[Elena]

Shut the fuck up.

[Ashley]

He robbed his own bank.

[Elena]

That feels like the first day of freshman year of bank robber school. They tell you the number one.

[Ashley]

Hi.

[Elena]

Welcome to bank robber school. We're going to tell you something that we think you don't need to know.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Don't rob your own bank.

[Ashley]

Yep.

[Elena]

They have literally all your information.

[Ashley]

All your information. They recognize you. They know you, and you're stealing your own money back. Like, what? I can't. And I just told you how many banks there are in l. A. Yeah. There's a shit ton of banks.

[Elena]

So many other options.

[Ashley]

Why?

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ashley]

So, yeah, that was incredibly risky because rather than robbing a bank down in downtown L. A. Like I said, where no one would have recognized him, him, he chose to rob a bank where employees were familiar with his face and his voice, which was not that hard in a town of only 20, 000 people. But more than making bad choices, it was actually really just a lot of bad luck that caused things to go wrong.

[Elena]

Maybe bad karma.

[Ashley]

One would say yes. On the morning of May 9, which is interesting because it's May 6 right now.

[Elena]

We always do that. We always do that, and we never mean to do that.

[Ashley]

No. I picked this.

[Elena]

I promise you that.

[Ashley]

Literally, like, not knowing anything.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So that's weird.

[Elena]

That's crazy.

[Ashley]

So on the morning of May 9, all five men loaded into George's George Smith's blue Matador and headed to Norco, stopping at the Westminster Mall about half an hour from NORCO. Just after 9:30am General telephone service worker Steve Cantelli was sitting in his van just flipping through a Thomas's guidebook when three men appeared at the driver's side window and pressed a.38 special to his head. One of the men shouted, get out of the van now. And can tell he complied.

[Elena]

He was like, you got it? Sure.

[Ashley]

As soon as he stepped out of the van he started running. But to his surprise, no one followed. Instead, a man sitting in his car a few yards away just watched as the three soon to be bank robbers opened the back of the telephone van.

[Elena]

And have now caused a scene.

[Ashley]

And have not caused a scene. Cool. One of the men climbed in the back, only to emerge a few seconds later shaking his head. As indicated by the sign on the outside of the van in probably very large letters, it was a telephone service vehicle. So the rear cargo area was fitted with shelving and full of equipment. So it wasn't going to work for what they needed it to. My goodness. But not seeing any other vans in the lot, the men returned to the Matador and the witness watched as they fled the scene.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ashley]

So now they've been spotted.

[Elena]

You guys are killing it so far.

[Ashley]

Now they've been spotted and they still don't have a getaway car. So after leaving the lot, George drove about three miles down the road to the. I think it's Brie or Brea Mall. Brea, the Brea Mall. Thinking that they would surely find another.

[Elena]

Van there, of course. Why don't we leave this up to chance?

[Ashley]

Yeah, of course. His assumption turned out to be a reasonable one, although they had to wait a few hours. Eventually they spotted a mid-70s Dodge Tradesman van with a faded logo on the side that read Di Mano Cappuccino. Known for being large and powerful, the tradesman was exactly the kind of vehicle they were looking for. So this was good.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ashley]

The driver of the van, 35 year old Gary Hakala, had stopped at the mall around 11:30 that morning just to get some parts to fix a broken side view mirror on that actual van before going to deliver the freeze dried food that he had in the trailer hitched to the back of the van. He noticed the men in the blue sedan as soon as he pulled in the parking lot. They appeared to be staring at him intensely as he parked, concerned that the men in the cars might be looking to Steal from other cars in the lot. Gary grabbed the padlock from the dashboard, intending to lock the trailer before going inside. But he barely got the lock in his hand when both doors of the van flew open, and Gary had three guns pointing in his face.

[Elena]

Jesus.

[Ashley]

Manny Delgado told him, I swear to God, we will kill you if you try anything.

[Elena]

I'd just be like, okay, yeah, that's all you should do in that situation. Yep, that's.

[Ashley]

That's exactly what he did. But they forced him to the ground. He got a good look at the driver, though. Billy Delgado. But once he was on the ground, they taped his hands and ankles, placed a paper shopping bag over his head, and threw him in the back of his own van. Oh, no. Now they have a hostage.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ashley]

Well, now with their hostage. Billy started the van with George and Manny in the back, and they pulled. When they pulled out of the lot, Chris and Russ followed behind in George's car.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ashley]

With the bag over his head, Gary couldn't tell where they were or where they were even going. They drove for a short distance, and then he felt the van come to a stop, and he could hear the men removing the trailer from the hitch. Now free of the trailer, they started driving again, this time for about an hour before they stopped a second time. This time, Manny forced Gary into a small equipment cabinet in the back of the van, so all he could do was listen to the sounds of the men loading equipment in the back back. And then the three carjackers were joined by the two other men. So everybody for Gary. I know this poor man. So now everybody's getting in the van. Then Billy drove a little ways until they reached the gas main a few miles from the bank. And George jumped out and placed the explosive under the main. From inside the cabinet, Gary heard George jump back in the van.

[Elena]

The.

[Ashley]

The van. The van in the van, and shout, it's a go. It's a go. Go, go, go. Then the van lurched forward, and they were driving again. Ten minutes passed before it came to a stop in the parking lot just outside the Security Pacific bank in Norco. Now, until this point, the gang had made a few mistakes, chief among them being seen by at least three witnesses.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's a big deal.

[Ashley]

Yeah, that's not great. But here's where the element of bad luck slash bad karma really comes into play and throws George's plan fucking off the rails entirely. By the time they arrived in the parking lot, George had detonated the explosive under the gas main. But rather than cause a large explosion as they thought it would. It started a modest fire.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ashley]

Which I'm so happy about. And it makes me LOL a little bit.

[Elena]

It is great that that's what happened.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

That fire was almost immediately spotted by a passerby who flagged down a truck driver. And that truck driver literally just used a fire extinguisher to put out the flames. And one about his death.

[Elena]

Good for him.

[Ashley]

There was no need for any kind of large emergency response distraction.

[Elena]

No.

[Ashley]

So that was bad. Now the gang in the van realized this, but by then they'd already put their plan in motion and nobody seemed willing to back out. The second instance of bad luck came in the parking lot of the Security Pacific Bank. As soon as Billy Delgado put the van into park, the four heavily armed men piled out of the back and made their way into the front door. I can't imagine witnessing this, seeing this, because they're all. They all have ski masks on and they're terrifying. Heavily armed. Unbeknownst to them, though, an employee from the bank across the street, because there's another bank, witnessed what was happening, as did the two mothers of the and the pack of Cub Scouts standing outside.

[Elena]

Oh my God.

[Ashley]

Yeah. But still, the men blew past the group and burst into the bank. George, brandishing the heckler rifle, yelled, everybody down. While the three others secured the dozen customers who were in the lobby.

[Elena]

Oh, God.

[Ashley]

George went up to the teller and said, if there are any alarms or anything, there's going to be a lot of dead people here.

[Elena]

Oh, that's up.

[Ashley]

Then he handed over one of the duffel bags and demanded the teller fill the bag with $20,000. It'd be about 77, $621 today. Wow. Solid chunk of change.

[Elena]

Yeah. Foreign.

[D]

Lamont Jones world is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County, Pennsylvania, a chilling true story of corruption and cover ups that begins as one man's search for answers, but soon reveals a disturbing pattern. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never before heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County, Pennsylvania pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story. It's happening right now. Follow Death County Pa on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County Pa early and ad free right now. By joining Wondery Plus.

[Ashley]

Now, although they'd seen the group standing outside the bank, it didn't occur to any of the men that one of those mothers would have called the police. No, but it wasn't the group outside the bank who had alerted the police. It was the bank teller across the street who saw them get out of the van. And their run of bad luck was only just getting started. They were in the bank for a little over two minutes, but the report about the robbery had gone out over the police radio while they were still inside. And the closest deputy, Glenn Balaski, was sitting in his cruiser at a stoplight literally around the corner.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ashley]

Around the corner, around the corner. So Balaski raced over to Security Pacific, which also. It's just so wild to me that they robbed a bank called. Called Security.

[Elena]

Yeah, that. That really hit me.

[Ashley]

That's a bad omen, you know?

[Elena]

Yeah, that's not good.

[Ashley]

But anyway, he raced over and pulled into the lot while the four men were still inside. But from his position in the van, Billy Delgado could see the wave of sheriff. Sheriff's officers arriving at the bank. And he grabbed his walkie talkie and fumbled with it before alerting George that the police had arrived. Now, in a panic, they grabbed whatever money they could and made their way out the front door. From inside the bank, several of the customers heard a voice shout, there's one. And then everything was drowned out by the sound of gunfire.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ashley]

The first thing Deputy Balaski saw when he looked up from his police radio was Manny Delgado step right in front of his cruiser with the riot shotgun aimed directly at him. So he threw himself down across the bench seat, like, within seconds, avoiding having his head blown off.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ashley]

Yes. Like, that weapon is insane. He would have. It would have been nothing. It would have been wild. From that point forward, the scene was absolute chaos, with Riverside Sheriff's deputies firing in the direction of the men who had now spread out behind the area around the van. Then Balaski heard George shout, we've got a hostage in here. But his voice was quickly blocked out by the sound of bullets just ripping through the metal of cars in the lot.

[Elena]

Can you imagine being the hostage, Gary?

[Ashley]

No. And remember, he's about to talk about him. He's in a cabinet, like a tiny cabinet.

[Elena]

He's prone to get shot here.

[Ashley]

Oh, yeah.

[Elena]

And they don't even know he's in there.

[Ashley]

And he's hearing. He's hearing like a ton of cars around him getting shot and just gunfire.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So in from inside the cabinet, in the back of the van. Gary Hakala was terrified. Later, he told the jury, I heard a lot of gunfire, an awful lot of gunfire. I heard shots of something hitting the outside of the van.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ashley]

And through all the chaos, he then heard the four men climb into the van, and the vehicle started up, and they started moving, but they didn't make it very far when the car came to a complete, abrupt stop, clearly having hit something. What Gary didn't know at the time was as the van sped out of the parking lot, Deputy Balaski aimed his shotgun at the driver's side and fired the round of buckshot hitting Billy Delgado behind the earth, killing him instantly and sending the van careening into a telephone pole.

[Elena]

Oh, wow.

[Ashley]

So now their getaway driver is dead.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ashley]

And 17 years old.

[Elena]

17 years old.

[Ashley]

As soon as that happened, the other men piled out of the van and ran, just leaving Gary behind, their hostage. But again, like you said, people don't know he's in there. Certain they were gone, though, he managed to smash his way out of the cabinet and found the cargo area of the van, quote, filled with shell casings, broken glass, money, guns, and what appeared to be bombs.

[Elena]

Holy. Imagine coming out and finding that and.

[Ashley]

Trying to make your way around that.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

While going outside, but also you're coming out of the same van that they were just in, so you don't want.

[Elena]

Them to think that you're one of them. And it's like.

[Ashley]

Yeah, exactly. So, still bound at his wrists and ankles, he managed to get to the broken window and yelled, I'm a hostage. Help me. With a slight push, he fell off.

[Elena]

Scary.

[Ashley]

It's horrifying. He fell out of the back door of the van and managed to crawl to safety on the other side of the street, which is just astounding.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Now, Norco isn't now, and it wasn't then a very heavily populated town, but it was busy in this area the afternoon that the shooting. Well, when the shooting began outside the bank on one of the town's main streets, several drivers just sat in awe as these heavily armed men poured out of the wrecked van and a horde of sheriff's deputies trailed behind them. Countless residents had already been alerted to the shootout since bullets had begun tearing through cars, businesses, and houses all around the bank.

[Elena]

Yeah, you got to think about that.

[Ashley]

There's people just going about their lives right exactly now. At first, Manny Delgado tried to lift his brother's body from the driver's seat, either to carry him out of the van or just to move him so somebody else could drive. But the position of Billy's body and the density of the dead weight just made that impossible. So Chris and George grabbed the duffel bags full of guns and made their way out the back door with Russ and Manny close behind them. As soon as they were outside the van, Chris and George started firing in the direction of Balaski's cruiser, where the deputy was ducked behind the front right tire. This must have been horrifying.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

By that point, he'd been struck several times in the face, arms and shoulder, but he was continuing to engage the men until additional deputies arrived.

[Elena]

My God.

[Ashley]

Brave, holy brave, man. By the time deputies Charles Hill and Andy Delgado arrived on the scene, the remaining four bank robbers were out of the van and still firing in Balaski's direction. Andy Delgado drew their attention and gunfire while Charles. Charles Hill made his way over to Balaski, who was now bleeding heavily.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Fortunately, Hill was able to get Pulaski back to his cruiser and evacuate him to the nearest hospital, though.

[Elena]

Damn. He is. That's like heroic.

[Ashley]

Like, name something more heroic. It's insane. As the gunfight ensued, George spotted an F, a Ford F250, stopped at a nearby light and just started walking toward it like Michael Myers style.

[Elena]

Hate that.

[Ashley]

Inside the truck, the driver, 24 year old Mike Linville, spotted George coming in his direction. Remember, he's wearing a ski mask and holding like however many guns.

[Elena]

No, thank you.

[Ashley]

So he sees George coming in his direction and then also notices three other men not far behind him. Manny Delgado was the only one who did not have his face covered with a ski mask. And they were all also carrying large green duffel bags. So he's like, I'm good.

[Elena]

He's like, that seems conspicuous.

[Ashley]

Yeah. So they're, so they're waving, they're like weaving around cars, pointing their guns at drivers and passengers. It's very clear that they're looking for a new vehicle. And he knew that his truck was probably exactly what they wanted. So rather than sit it out and wait for them to order him out of the truck, he threw open the door, jumped out, ran toward the bank parking lot, scrambled up a cinder block wall and found safety on top of the 21 century 21 realty building. Like essentially, essentially scaled a wall, literally.

[Elena]

Brilliant. It is just, I mean, like self preservation wise, that is. And also you're, you're saving other people, saving a lot of people in that area by just being like, you know what, that's probably what you want, so you can take it. Let the Police deal with it and. Yup, we're all safe now.

[Ashley]

Yup.

[Elena]

So good for him. Yeah, good for him.

[Ashley]

I just love that he scaled a cinder block wall.

[Elena]

I love it.

[Ashley]

Love safety. On a roof.

[Elena]

He assessed. On a roof. On a roof, he assessed the situation. He said, I got what they want. And he got. He just said bye.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And then he just went on a roof.

[Ashley]

Smart. I would go on a roof.

[Elena]

He's safe. Everyone else is safe. Good job.

[Ashley]

Let's go.

[Elena]

Good job.

[Ashley]

Everyone else is. Not quite safe yet, but he saved a lot of people.

[Elena]

He tried.

[Ashley]

So when the officers finally heard a break in the shooting, they looked up to see all four remaining robbers climbing into Linville's now empty truck. Three of the men were in the cab of the truck, while another stood in the bed holding an assault rifle. I'm just gonna give you all a minute to conjure that in your mind. Yeah, that's a terrifying.

[Elena]

Not an image you want to think about.

[Ashley]

No. They also now appeared to be in no hurry as they took their time loading the truck and then pulled out from the intersection and headed. Headed in the direction of the Little League field on the other side of town, where they had stashed George and Chris's cars.

[Elena]

I don't like that at all.

[Ashley]

Yeah. The fact that they're not in a hurry now is freaky.

[Elena]

And that they stashed the cars at a Little League.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Field upsetting.

[Elena]

Gross.

[Ashley]

Now, as Chris drove the truck, George studied the wound in his leg where he'd been hit. It was bleeding real bad, and he didn't know what he could do to make it stop. So he tied his bandana around it as a temporary solution. Everyone else remained silent, likely reflecting on how George's simple plan had gone. So I know I would be if.

[Elena]

I were in their situation.

[Ashley]

I'd be like, what?

[Elena]

Fuck the.

[Ashley]

The did we get ourselves into? But as they neared the Little League field, they encountered yet another problem. Having heard the call go out over the radio, the local fire department used their trucks to set up blockades across the town to make sure they blocked main escape routes.

[Elena]

Yeah, they did.

[Ashley]

Smart.

[Elena]

Yeah, they did.

[Ashley]

So Chris cut down a side road, though, to avoid the blockade. And soon they were barreling down the back roads of Norco, desperately making their way toward the freeway. Oh, the plan had worked, at least in as much as it had got them to the freeway. But it also allowed the horde of law enforcement officials to catch up to them. With Chris driving. Manny sat on the frame of the passenger door. Just firing Chris's HK93 in the direction of pursuing officers.

[Elena]

Hey.

[Ashley]

Sitting on the frame of the passenger, passenger door as they're driving. Just firing at police officers.

[Elena]

So scary.

[Ashley]

Meanwhile, Russ Harvin was positioned in the bed of the truck, filing his assault rifle in their direction, as well as. And occasionally tossing homemade grenades at them.

[Elena]

Yeah, no big deal.

[Ashley]

Yeah. As they raced through San Bernardino county towards the Sierra Mountains, Chris and Manny were largely successful at keeping pursuing officers at a distance because they're throwing hand grenades and they were also picking off any vehicles that got too close. By the time they reached the area around Mount Baldy, Chris had put enough distance between them and their deputies that the pursuers didn't immediately see the truck turn off A rural way, a rural road. So hard to say, toward the mountain. So now they're like a little bit out of sight. Eventually, the deputies did find the truck at the dead end of a service road, but they were completely unaware that they had driven straight into a trap.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ashley]

Now, bottlenecked on a dead end road, there was no way for them to turn around or retreat quickly. In fact, by the time lead deputy James Evans realized the truck was empty, it was already too late. The four men emerged from around the truck and started firing in his direction as he took cover behind his cruiser. In returning fire, he managed the incredible achievement of hitting Chris Harvin from 75ft Away.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Using just his service revolver.

[Elena]

Holy shit.

[Ashley]

The bullet sent Chris flying back into the dirt, but the other three continued firing. And the next time Evans popped up to. To return fire, he was sadly struck in the head. Oh, no. Yeah, he's a hero, too, though. As the remaining deputies attempted to return fire, they too were struck by the hail of gunfire, sustaining injuries of various degrees of severity. The death of Deputy Evans gave Manny, Russ, Chris, and George enough time to retreat further into the woods, though. And up the mountain.

[Elena]

Now they're going in the. They're fleeing into the mountains.

[Ashley]

They're literally going out, like, to, like a snowy mountain that. Yeah. Fleeing to Mount Baldy was surely never part of George's plan. But like a lot of other aspects of the robbery, it reflected the reality that they were way out of their league.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

At least criminally speaking. In their panicked attempt to escape, they fled up the mountain, which meant that the only way to actually escape was to go back down the mountain.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So in that case, all the sheriff's department and now the newly arrived SWAT team had to do was wait them out, and eventually they'd get them.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now you're stuck.

[Ashley]

Right. But the only question was, would they take them alive or dead? By the time the sun had gone down, Mount Baldy was surrounded by hundreds of law enforcement officers from the from Riverside and the surrounding counties, as well as federal agents.

[Elena]

That must have been crazy.

[Ashley]

Yeah. In killing Jim Evans, the gang had upped the ante significantly, and it seemed unlikely that they were going to be able to.

[Elena]

To escape. Oh, yeah. It's like now you've killed the cop.

[Ashley]

You killed a cop.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

You shot a cop in the head. In the meantime, officers accompanied tracking dogs up into the mountains, following the trail of blood left by Chris and George, who were both now bleeding heavily from gunshot wounds.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ashley]

Throughout the night, occasional bursts of gunfire could be heard from and around the mountain. But for a few hours at least, the chaos seemed to settle. The following morning, deputies and SWAT members finally cornered George, Chris and Russ in a snow covered patch of mountains. They were soaking wet, freezing, exhausted, and Chris and George had lost a lot of blood. By that point, they'd become separated from Manny Delgado, who was tracked by officers with dogs. But as soon as deputies closed in around him, he took his own life rather than be taken into custody.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ashley]

Yeah. In the end, the crime scene was the largest in U. S. History, stretching out more than 50 miles from Norco into the San Gabriel mountains and littered with thousands of spent shells, shrapnel and other debris from the shootout.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ashley]

In the fight, more than three dozen cars were destroyed. A San Bernardino county helicopter was badly damaged, and countless homes and businesses in and around Norco showed evidence of having been hit with fire.

[Elena]

Oh, I'm sure.

[Ashley]

And there was the human cost. In addition to the murder of deputy Jim Evans, Billy Delgado had been shot by the police and killed. His brother Manny had taken his own life on Mount Baldy. Throughout the ordeal, at least eight officers sustained serious injuries and three civilians were injured.

[Elena]

Oh, I believe. I'm surprised it wasn't more.

[Ashley]

I am too, actually. And as for the money they had stolen, most of it flew out the window of the truck as they made their getaway.

[Elena]

You've got to be. So this was all, this was for literally nothing?

[Ashley]

Yep. And the days that followed, none of the bank robbers were compliant, and it took law enforcement officials some time before they were even able to identify them. Because, remember, these people have no past criminal history.

[Elena]

Yeah, like that's what's even scarier.

[Ashley]

It's insane.

[Elena]

They really went for it.

[Ashley]

In the meantime, the press descended on Norco, looking for any information on the robbers or any first hand counts of the robbery. Security Pacific employee Tim Murphy told a reporter, it was scary. They looked and acted like commandos. They were professional and they didn't mind shooting.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Other residents in Norco were simply stunned that the robbery had happened at all. One resident said, things like this just don't happen. Well, not here anyway, because it's so massive.

[Elena]

Like what a scale.

[Ashley]

And like I said, this is a small town. It's like 20, 000 people.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

A week later, all three men were arraigned on 40 separate charges, including willful murder, armed robbery, and killing an officer during the commission of a robbery. In his statement to the press, Assistant District attorney Tom Hollandhorst noted the charges included four, quote, special circumstances that could very likely lead it to becoming a death penalty case. But despite the crime having occurred across multiple jurisdictions, the federal government deferred the case to the Riverside County District attorney for prosecution. The case was delayed several times in the months that followed, and the three men didn't end up going before a judge until the summer of 1981. So almost a year passed.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ashley]

After several months of testimony from witnesses and multiple sheriff's deputies, the jury deliberated for 16 days before emerging to find them, all three of them guilty on 45 counts.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ashley]

Including two counts of murder for Billy Delgado and Jim Evans, one of their own and a police officer, and 25 counts of attempted murder.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Despite the complexity of the case and the number of delays, the prosecutor, Jay Hanks, never doubted that they would receive a guilty verdict. He told reporters, I would not have been surprised to have seen some charges compromised, but I fully did expect to see the murder charges stand. But I'm sure it surprised him that they got convicted on almost like every single count.

[Elena]

Yeah, I mean, that's a risk you take with that many counts. You assume a lot are going to fall off.

[Ashley]

But the fact that they were. They got all of them on 45 counts.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ashley]

So the following month, all three were sentenced to serve the rest of their lives in prison without the possibility of parole. And the world didn't end today. George Smith is serving his sentence at Richard J. Donovan Correctional Facility in San Diego. And Chris Harvin is serving his sentence at the California State Prison in Vacaville. Russ Harvin, his brother died from heart failure in December of 2019.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ashley]

But I just think it's absolutely insane that they went to all this. I don't even want to say, like, all this trouble. I don't. There's not even a word all this nonsense, all this chaos, all this nonsense for money to fortify a bunker for the end of the world. And the world is still going. It.

[Elena]

It really. And that's the thing.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And also that they put themselves in this position where they were. Could easily have been killed.

[Ashley]

To survive.

[Elena]

To survive. Because they didn't want to die.

[Ashley]

Yep.

[Elena]

Like, make it make sense.

[Ashley]

It's a truly fascinating case.

[Elena]

And that they. I don't. There's not one part of me that believes that that was a simple reason for this. Because if it was simply that they would have done what every other bank robbery was doing at the time.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Elena]

Run in there, get the money, run out and go hide somewhere with your money. I think it worked. They went so far. I think they wanted to cause chaos.

[Ashley]

I think so, too.

[Elena]

Yeah. They were looking to scare people. To terrorize people. Yeah.

[Ashley]

Yeah, absolutely. Because they were scared or terrorized.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So they wanted to.

[Elena]

They wanted to do it.

[Ashley]

Spread that. Yeah, I think so. And I think they wanted some kind of notoriety for.

[Elena]

Sure.

[Ashley]

Sure.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Which the case has. Unfortunately, they don't. They really don't get even talked about that much.

[Elena]

Well, nobody knows their names.

[Ashley]

Nobody knows their names.

[Elena]

You know the name of the case and remember, you know, Jim Evans. You remember that name.

[Ashley]

Absolutely. You do.

[Elena]

But, yeah, those guys.

[Ashley]

Them.

[Elena]

Those guys. But damn, what a. What a ride.

[Ashley]

Truly. From start to finish.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Just that case takes off and you're.

[Elena]

Just like, I'm sorry, what?

[Ashley]

Hello? But, yeah, it's tragic that an officer lost his life and many others had to spend weeks and weeks healing from, like, insane injury.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

People were hit with grenades and shrapnel and all kinds of. And people had to repair their homes, their businesses, their cars.

[Elena]

Like, imagine that. Like. Imagine like a stray bullet comes through your door, like.

[Ashley]

And forget, like, all the time spent healing and the. You know, all of that. Just the trauma.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Ashley]

Even for somebody that. That wasn't hit, but just witnessed that.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ashley]

You would be so fearful to leave your house ever again. Yeah. Can't imagine.

[Elena]

Of course.

[Ashley]

Can't imagine.

[Elena]

No. But damn.

[Ashley]

With all that being said.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

I hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not as weird as that. If you think the end of the world is coming, you. You page Buffy.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ashley]

And you know, if the world is ending, there's nothing we can do to stop it.

[Elena]

That's the thing. Just ride it out, man.

[Ashley]

Just vibe. Until then.

[Elena]

Fine. Yeah. We're good.

[Ashley]

It's all good.

[Elena]

Love you. Love you. Mean it. Sa.

[Ashley]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.