Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Morbid | Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.

Hosts: Ash and Elena
Release Date: May 26, 2025
Podcast: Morbid by Morbid Network | Wondery

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1. Introduction

The episode delves into the harrowing life and tragic death of Grady Stiles Jr., famously known as “Lobster Boy.” Ash and Elena navigate through Grady's tumultuous upbringing, family dynamics, abusive relationships, and the eventual culmination of his violent actions.

2. Grady Stiles Jr. - Early Life and Family Background

Grady Franklin Stiles Jr. was born on June 26, 1937, in Pittsburgh to Edna and Grady Stiles Sr., a carnival performer known as the "Lobster Man" due to his electrodactyly—a condition causing missing fingers and toes, giving him claw-like hands ([09:18] Ash). This rare genetic disorder, affecting roughly 1 in 100,000 births, had been present in the Stiles family since the 1840s.

3. Life in Gibsonton and Carnival Life

To combat the ostracization Grady Jr. faced due to his appearance, the family relocated to Gibsonton, Florida—a haven for retired carnival workers ([12:08] Elena). Here, Grady found a semblance of normalcy among fellow sideshow performers. However, financial strains persisted, compelling Grady Jr. and his siblings to abandon traditional schooling in favor of supporting the family through carnival performances.

"Grady Jr. was just gonna live a life of performing. That was what he was going to do, just as his father had." ([12:08] Ash)

4. Marriage to Teresa and Family Expansion

At 17, Grady Jr. married Deborah Brady, but the marriage was short-lived, ending in divorce after a year due to his abusive nature ([17:02] Ash). In the spring of 1959, Grady met Mary Teresa Herzog, known as Teresa, a ticket booth worker escaping her abusive stepfather. Their relationship blossomed despite the hierarchical constraints of the carnival, leading Grady to advocate for Teresa’s promotion to a performer role, thereby legitimizing their relationship within the circus community ([23:03] Ash).

5. Escalation of Grady's Abuse

Grady's harsh upbringing and the stresses of carnival life manifested into severe alcoholism and increasing violence. Teresa endured verbal, physical, and emotional abuse, including instances where Grady beat her and threw scalding coffee ([28:00] Ash). The birth of their healthy daughter, Donna, seemingly exacerbated Grady's anger, leading to heightened abusive behavior ([29:26] Ash).

"Following Donna's birth, Grady began to drink even more than he had. He was staying out late with other carnies and sometimes not coming home for days." ([29:26] Ash)

6. Custody Battle and Impact on Children

In the mid-1970s, after escalating abuse and the tragic death of their children Margaret and David from pneumonia, Teresa attempted to leave Grady with the help of Glenn Newman. However, unbeknownst to Teresa, Grady had filed for divorce and secured full custody of the children through emotional manipulation and legal maneuvering ([33:37] Ash).

"The court awarded full custody of the children." ([33:54] Ash)

7. Grady's Continued Abuse and Teresa's Efforts to Leave

Despite brief periods of stability with Glenn Newman, Grady's abusive tendencies resurfaced. After multiple confrontations and violent outbursts, Teresa made a desperate attempt to escape, leading to further turmoil and the involvement of their sons in the abusive household ([36:38] Ash).

8. Murder of Jack and Legal Aftermath

Donna, one of Teresa and Grady’s daughters, fell in love with Jack Lane, Grady's son-in-law. Fearing her father's wrath, Donna and Jack contemplated marriage as an escape. However, on September 11th, after realizing the perilous situation, Grady went to a pawn shop to purchase a gun. On September 29th, during their planned wedding preparations, Grady murdered Jack by shooting him multiple times ([40:22] Ash).

9. Teresa and Glenn's Trial and Conviction

The ensuing legal battles saw Teresa, Glenn Jr., and their associate Chris Wyant charged with first-degree murder and conspiracy. Teresa’s defense hinged on 'battered wife syndrome,' arguing that years of abuse forced her into the act. Despite these arguments, the court sentenced Teresa to 12 years in prison and Glenn Jr. to 25 years to life for their roles in orchestrating the murder of Grady Stiles Jr. ([78:49] Ash).

"They were convicted of manslaughter in conspiracy to commit first-degree murder." ([79:16] Ash)

10. Attempts to Reconcile and Final Outcome

Post-trial, Grady continued his abusive behavior until his violent death. Teresa, after completing her sentence, struggled with the aftermath and the traumatic legacy left on her children. Glenn Jr. served his time but tragically passed away in 2014 under undisclosed circumstances ([80:48] Ash).

11. Hosts' Reflections and Conclusions

Ash and Elena reflect on the devastating impact of Grady Stiles Jr.'s abusive life, emphasizing the cyclical nature of violence and trauma within families. They express deep empathy for the victims, particularly Donna, who endured relentless abuse and the loss of her fiancé. The hosts underscore the importance of breaking harmful cycles and seeking support to prevent such tragedies.

"You just can't beat someone down their entire life. You just can't treat someone like this for their whole life." ([81:00] Ash)

Notable Quotes

• "The death of a child will change. You can change a relationship, and it really depends on the strength of the relationship to begin with." — Ash ([28:50])

• "It's like you cannot beat someone down their entire life. You just can't treat someone like this for their whole life." — Ash ([81:00])

• "He is a piece of absolute demon. He never was a father." — Elena ([66:44])

Conclusion

The tragic story of Grady Stiles Jr. serves as a poignant reminder of the destructive power of abuse and the profound scars it leaves on individuals and families. Ash and Elena’s empathetic discussion highlights the urgent need for society to address and break free from cycles of violence to foster healthier, safer environments for future generations.

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Note: This summary excludes all advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections as per the podcast's transcript. All timestamps correspond to the transcript provided and are used to reference notable quotes within the narrative.

Transcript

[Ash]

Hey, weirdos. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about a place where the darkness never ends. Wondery. It's like stepping into a haunted mansion where the floorboards creak with ad free episodes. And early access to new episodes lurks around every corner. So come join us if you dare. Morbid is available one week early and ad free only on Wondery. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify.

[Elena]

You're listening to a Morbid network podcast. We get support from Amazon Prime. Hey, weirdos, you know what's literally the most amazing thing ever? Amazon Prime. Listen up, because this is gonna blow your minds. With prime, you get faster than lightning delivery on, like, everything. We're talking millions of items. Literally everything you could ever want or need. But wait, there's more. There's more than everything you could want or need. Prime Video lets you binge all those shows we're obsessed with. And Amazon music has the bops for your next dance party. I have been ordering a little bit on prime lately. I had to get some earplugs the other night because my husband was a snorri snore snoring. And I said, please send them to me the very next day. And they did. That was great. Loved that. Whether you're a total bookworm, a gaming fanatic, or you just really like trying new things or sleeping through the night without your husband snoring waking you up, Prime's got your back. Ebooks for days, free in game goodies and everything you need to make your next DIY project from streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com/prime to get more out of whatever you're into from the creator of Think Twice, Michael Jackson. Listen to the new Audible Original Final thoughts Jerry Springer. Once known as the king of trash tv, Springer was the notorious talk show host whose wild daytime program transfixed audiences everywhere. Join Springer's personal and professional life as the ratings soared and the reviews soured. Here, revealing interviews about the choices we make and the regrets we may have. Listen to the new trashy and true Audible Original Original Final thoughts Jerry Springer by going to audible.com Springer hey, weirdos.

[Ash]

I'm Ash. And I'm Elena.

[Elena]

And this is morbid.

[Ash]

This is morbid. And we're, we're not going to get right into it, but I just wanted to say we're talking about a case today that is rough.

[Elena]

Oh, so we should do some, some.

[Ash]

Bitty banter at the beginning. Yeah, we should prep Everybody.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Ahead of time.

[Elena]

Well, let's see. We all in this office have brand new tattoos.

[Ash]

We do. We went to Black Veil in Salem. Yeah, of course.

[Elena]

Saw Matt and Ryan. Or besties. If you ever need a tattoo, you need to go to Black Veil.

[Ash]

You do? Yes. For many reasons.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

For the company, for the ambiance. The ambiance. The tattoos, the vibes, the vibies. You gotta do it all. Yeah, it's true.

[Elena]

Do it.

[Ash]

So that was delightful.

[Elena]

That was super fun. It was a nice little, like, treat yourself day.

[Ash]

Yeah, it was.

[Elena]

What else is going on?

[Ash]

I'm trying to think. What's. What's the news? What's the hot goss. What's the 411?

[Elena]

The 411s that I. Oh.

[Ash]

What? Mikey just reminded me.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

Conclave.

[Elena]

Oh, Conclave.

[Ash]

Watch. Came to a crashing halt very quickly.

[Elena]

Yeah. It started just as quick as it ended.

[Ash]

Yeah. I was watching live, though. You were. So I had it up on my computer because I was ready.

[Elena]

She screamed, oh, new post.

[Ash]

Oh, it's happening.

[Elena]

I said, oh.

[Ash]

Soon as that white smoke came out, I said, oh, my God, we got an American. We got. Which I'm shocked.

[Elena]

That's the first time ever, right?

[Ash]

First time ever. And, like, especially right now, I'm like, wow. Shocking. I know that we managed to pull that off.

[Elena]

And we can say Pope Leor Par.

[Ash]

He seems pretty cool as far as Popes go.

[Elena]

Yeah. I think he's, like, progressive and shit.

[Ash]

Yeah. Very outspoken.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

He picked a cool name. We've had a lot of Francis. We've had a lot of John Paul's and all that shenanigans. So, you know, let's. Nice. See a Leo in there.

[Elena]

Yeah. Let's fucking go.

[Ash]

John said he's. Because John looked him up because I've been obsessing over Conclave. So he was like, I should probably know this. He looked him up, and apparently he's from Villanova, which meant nothing to me until John said that a lot of the Knicks players are from Villanova. And so he was like, oh, Villanova's having a moment. And I said, you get Pope or you get Finals. Yeah. You do not get both.

[Elena]

No, you fucking don't.

[Ash]

So, Nyx, listen to me right now. You chose Pope.

[Elena]

You got Pope.

[Ash]

Okay? So you. You don't get Pope. You don't get the NBA Finals. So.

[Elena]

I know.

[Ash]

Honestly, I think that's a good thing. John thought it was Villanova having a moment, and that's bad. I say you get Pope or you get Finals.

[Elena]

Yeah. That's what I feel. And I think the. The Celtics, that we just have to hope and pray that they're gonna make history for, you know, another year. Yeah, there's. This is all on purpose. It's not at all. But I. I know I just became a fan, so let me have this.

[Ash]

But, yeah, I'm sitting here in my.

[Elena]

Brand new Celtic sweatshirt.

[Ash]

You are we. Really.

[Elena]

Because you know what? I'm a fan. No matter how it's going, it's true.

[Ash]

But as you should.

[Elena]

I hope it upticks. I also hope we are on the precipice of game three.

[Ash]

We'll let you know, guys.

[Elena]

I know, but of course. Happy Mother's Day, everybody. Mother's Day weekend. We have to, like, go do stuff. There's a Celtics game.

[Ash]

I'm like, gosh darn it, I'm going.

[Elena]

To be like that. That sports bra at the table, my phone.

[Ash]

Watching it on your phone. I know, but yeah, so that's cool that. I mean, Pope Watch 2025 ended as quickly as it began, but it was still fun watching them close the doors on the Sistine Chapel. I was like, this is so metal. They're sealing them in there and they're all sitting down. It looked very, like, cinematic.

[Elena]

We need more traditions. We don't have any, like, cool traditions.

[Ash]

Yeah, well, and I'm, you know, I don't. Again, like, the Pope really doesn't affect my day to day life in any way, shape, or form. I was interested.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because it is nice to see a more progressive mouthpiece, peace for Jesus talking. I think that's important because we don't need somebody spewing hate and to people who will take what he says very seriously because he is seen as the word of. Of the Lord. He's young, though. He's 69. So this one might be hanging around for a while.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So we might. We might have a Leo dynasty happening.

[Elena]

Jesus's word will be pretty, pretty lit for the next while.

[Ash]

Let's hope so. You know, that's. That's an interesting, Interesting little update.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I thought we were gonna have conclave watch for a little while. Thought I was gonna get to talk.

[Elena]

About it for a little longer, but.

[Ash]

I did find out there was a weird conclave that happened a while ago that took, like, three years, though. And I think they ended up taking the bill, like, the roof off the building that they were in and everything. It was a long time ago.

[Elena]

Wait, why'd they take the roof off the building?

[Ash]

To force them to make a Decision. They also rationed their food to bread and water. Like, stopped feeding them actual food.

[Elena]

That's dark.

[Ash]

Well, they were like, three years. Pick a Pope. Oh, yeah. Let's do this. So maybe. Maybe we'll cover that because that seems like a very interesting little.

[Elena]

I know you brought that up the other day, and I. That sounds interesting.

[Ash]

It's a weird one.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But, yeah, that was. That was an interesting update that happened yesterday.

[Elena]

Yeah, I think that's, like, all the news. Celtics, Pope tattoos.

[Ash]

Yeah. Other than that, we're gonna get into a really shitty person. Okay, now, I think we. We have briefly touched upon this man. I believe in a crime countdown.

[Elena]

Oh, okay.

[Ash]

Because when I was reading about him, I was like, why do I know this? And then I was like, oh, that's.

[Elena]

Always the worst feeling. Because then you're like, have I done this?

[Ash]

And I'm like, we didn't cover this in full, but yeah, it's the life and death of lobster boy Grady Styles.

[Elena]

All right. It's not ringing a bell in my crime countdown. Part of my brain.

[Ash]

This is one of those things that.

[Elena]

He.

[Ash]

So obviously, the life and death. He dies. He's murdered. Murder is never okay. But you are going to hear me say, he's a bag of a human being.

[Elena]

Oh, is this like a Ken. Ken McElroy deal?

[Ash]

He's an abusive, awful person to the. To his daughters and to his wife. So obviously no one deserves to be killed. But I'm saying, like, you're gonna hear me talk some shit about him because he deserves it.

[Elena]

Yeah. I mean, you gotta be real no matter what.

[Ash]

Yeah. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna let you know. So who is Grady Stiles?

[Elena]

Tell me.

[Ash]

Grady Franklin Stiles Jr. Not Franklin. Franklin. I know. Was born June 26, the 1937. What does that make him?

[Elena]

So I think at that point, he's a cancer.

[Ash]

He's a cancer. Okay.

[Elena]

I don't know a lot about cancer men. I do.

[Ash]

He fits.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

He fits.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The third child of Edna and Grady Stiles Senior, Grady Styles Senior was a carnival worker and performer. He was billed as one of life's human oddities.

[Elena]

Oh, that's terrible to say.

[Ash]

There's a lot of this kind of like.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Carnivals were wild talk, quote unquote, freaks and such. Grady Senior was born with electrodactyly, which is a physical deformity where one or more fingers on the hands or toes on the feet are missing.

[Elena]

Oh, okay.

[Ash]

This condition, though, gave Grady Senior. And it often gives people who are dealing with it. The appearance of having claw like hands.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So kind of like those of a lobster. This led to his being billed on the sideshow circuit as the lobster man. Now, despite being a very rare condition, it affects actually roughly one in every 100,000 babies born.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Electrodactyly ran in the Stiles family as far back as the 1840s.

[Elena]

That's crazy.

[Ash]

In some cases, it'll occur in both the hands and feet, but in Grady Stiles case, it only occurred in his hands, the senior. So when the couple's third child, Grady Jr. Was born, no one was really surprised to discover that this child had inherited the condition which was present in Grady Stiles Jr. S hands and feet. Oh.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Now, according to author Fred. Fred Rosen, the Stiles family had always not really listened to the advice of doctors who warned against having children because of the likelihood of them inheriting this condition. Because especially when it's of the hands and feet, it leads to a very difficult life, you know?

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

And according to Rosen, their attitude was, quote, hell, if a child was born a freak, it was the child's problem. The child's. And Gods.

[Elena]

Oh, okay. That's one way to look at it.

[Ash]

Which is like, damn, what an outlook.

[Elena]

That's. That's your problem, little baby.

[Ash]

Yeah. A child that didn't ask to be brought into this world. Like, that's fucked up in a way I can't describe.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In fact, Grady Jr. Sister Sarah had also inherited their father's condition. But it only affected one arm and one leg. Years into her adulthood, actually, Sarah had her non functional leg amputated and replaced with an artificial limb.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Unlike his sister, Grady's affliction was far worse than even their father's. Oh. And prevented him from being able to walk. He was. He had to rely on a wheelchair for mobility.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Now, at the time of his birth, the Stiles family was living in relative poverty in Pittsburgh's north side. They were barely getting by on the wages they were getting from the carnival circuit. And for Grady, early life was a challenge, to say the very least. Again, you feel really bad for young Grady. Yeah.

[Elena]

He was given a lot to deal.

[Ash]

With, a lot to deal with. Right out the gate. Yeah. With his father constantly on the road with the sideshow, there was no one around to normalize his condition. Really.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Which was a problem. And so he was treated as a spectacle whenever his mother took him out of the apartment, which is. That must be very difficult.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Fortunately, just a few years after he was born, they did relocate to Gibsonton, which is a small town in central Florida. And this is very interesting. In the decades that had preceded them moving there, this had become a popular place to move for retired circus workers.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

And those who were seeking refuge during the off season of the circus and the carnival. So due to the large number of performers in town, they had also. The local administration had also established very, like, unusual zoning laws, and this allowed the residents to keep elephants, tigers, and other large exotic animals on their property.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Which would solve the problems also of boarding the circus animals.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

But for young Grady, this kind of solved the problem of him feeling like an outcast because now he's hanging out with a bunch of circus workers and sideshow workers and the kids. The sideshow workers and a bunch of exotic animals.

[Elena]

Yeah, he fits in.

[Ash]

He's not weird. Like, he's just one of them. But it didn't do anything to solve their financial issues. That's a bummer. As a result, the Stiles children were all expected to just kind of forego traditional schooling and just pitch in at the circus to help support the family as the only able, fully able bodied child. Margaret, the oldest, worked the ticket booth until she actually ended up passing away from a brain aneurysm in 1951 at the age of 18.

[Elena]

Oh, wow. This family had so much to deal with.

[Ash]

Yeah. For Grady Jr, his. He was just gonna live a life of performing. That was what he was going to do, just as his father had. From one small town to another, the family spent the majority of their lives traveling with the carnival. And they were billed as the Lobster Family. Oh, yeah. Throughout the first half of the 20th century, circuses like Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey were so popular around the country, particularly during the Depression and war years, you know, when a family could expect a day's worth of entertainment for a very small fee. And just to take them away from all the reality going on. Exactly. Reality. For the carnival workers and performers, the pay might not have been great, but it was consistent. And the work offered, you know, a stable and supportive environment that a lot of them had not experienced outside of the circus. They kind of treated like shit. In fact, Fred Rosen said, in those days, the carnival was indeed a family. In those days, people joined up for the duration. They stayed with the same carnival through thick and thin. They were there for each other. The fat man, the bearded lady, the Rustabouts and the strippers became like a kind of, you know, it's like American Horror Story freak show.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

How they become Like a family, you know, in the present, it would obviously be very illegal for parents to just take their kids out of school and be like, you're working at the circus for good reason. Like. But under the circumstances and given his experiences in a, you know, quote unquote, ordinary community, Grady Jr. Was honestly happier with the sideshow than he had been just in Pittsburgh going, well, that's good. Not only was his family be able to just be together all the time, but he also loved performing, and he liked being in the spotlight. Like, it.

[Elena]

He was okay.

[Ash]

Seemed to feed him, like, he really liked it. And when they weren't on the road, they retired to Gibsonton, and there he was treated as just any other child in town. So it was. He wasn't dealing with that bullshit, you know, and he was able to live a relatively normal childhood among other children of circus workers.

[Elena]

Yes. Like, they're normal.

[Ash]

I was gonna say a different kind of normal. What they saw is that despite the acceptance he found in Gibsonton and his ability to, you know, help the family by working at the sideshow circuit, Grady Stiles life was definitely one of hardship. It's not like he was just coasting through. He had a lot to deal with, and it wasn't long before this kind of hardship that was just kind of hardwired inside of him was leading to a lot of bitterness, because, again, it's not like he was treated nicely by everyone he came in contact with. You know what I mean? Like, he.

[Elena]

It was people who understood his struggles.

[Ash]

Yeah. And some people, I'm sure the people that came in to the circus sometimes would probably dehumanize him and like, that. I'm sure that's gonna live in your nervous system at some point.

[Elena]

Yeah, definitely.

[Ash]

So he was often frustrated, often bitter, but he was very determined to prove himself, to be as capable as anybody else.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

He Be. So one thing he could do, which he did, like, he very much fixated on, was building up his strength in his early teens, and he developed incredible upper body strength.

[Elena]

Really?

[Ash]

Yeah. And that he used this kind of. To compensate for his lack of, you know, dexterity, lack of being able to really move around like he felt everybody else could. At the same time, he adapted to his condition really well and had learned to use his hands in, like, a claw, like, fashion, so he could hold objects, he could write, he could do other, like, very complex tasks with his hands.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Which when you look at it, you're like, wow, at this point, you're like, good for you, man. Like, you really, like, Took lemons and you made lemonade out of them, like, good for you. Now, by the early 1950s, Grady Senior, his father, had decided it was going to be much more lucrative for the family to go into business for themselves and they struck out on their own. Now, around this time, 17 year old Grady Jr. Married his first wife, Deborah Brady. That was in a small ceremony in Tampa, Florida. Now, unfortunately, that was only gonna last about a year before they divorced. And Grady ended up just really focusing on the business for a little while. He's a horrible husband, just to put that out there. It lasted a year. I not surprised by that. I don't know how, based on what we find out later, marriage to him was not a fun time. Now, Grady didn't have to wait long to find love again, though. In the spring of 1959, during a stop in Trenton, New Jersey, Grady met Mary Teresa Herzog, who went by Teresa.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

One of the carnival's newest ticket booth workers. And instantly they were in love. Now, by the time she'd Met Grady Stiles, 21 year old, Theresa's experiences with men had been universally bad.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

So when she was. This is awful. When she was six years old, Teresa's mother divorced Teresa's father and remarried a monster named Frank Tyler, who would go on to sexually abuse her for years.

[Elena]

Oh, that's terrible.

[Ash]

Frank Tyler, piece of.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Given the terrible conditions of her home life, Teresa would like lose herself in carnivals. You know, it was just like one of those things, like escaping reality. Yeah, it really was. It was, it reminded me of like a movie we just watched for Scream, where the devil roams. One of the characters in that talks about how his father was abusive when he was younger and he would escape to the circus.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

Just to get out of that reality.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

Which is just so sad. Yeah, it is sad, Teresa. So she found refuge in these carnivals and circuses that would travel and they would come to her small Vermont town in the spring and summer months.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

She later said, the carnival fascinated me. I guess it fascinated most young people. I thought the lights and the excitement were just great.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, in a bid to get closer to the carnival and really like just envelop herself in it, she began working as a ticket taker during the summer. Then when she turned 18, she joined up with the circus on a full time basis and finally got away from her stepfather for good.

[Elena]

Good, that guy.

[Ash]

Yeah. Before long, she met and fell in love with one of the Rustabouts, Jerry Plummer. Not Grady Styles.

[Elena]

Not Grady.

[Ash]

And soon they were mar.

[Elena]

This show is sponsored by Better Help. If you listen to this show, you know that men's mental health throughout history has been a little stigmatized, not been prioritized. It is okay to struggle. Real strength, though, comes from opening up about what you're carrying and doing something about it so that you can be at your best for yourself and everybody else in your life. If you're a man and you're feeling the weight of the world, talk to someone. A friend, a loved one, a therapist. I have benefited greatly from therapy. I'm not a man, but I still have benefited greatly from therapy. And I think everybody can. With over 35,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 billion people globally. And it works with an App store rating of 4, 9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client reviews. It's convenient too. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life, plus switch therapists at any time. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first first month at betterhelp.commorbid that's BetterHelp H E-L-P.commorbid Every day I make countless decisions, but one of the easiest and the most important is securing my home with Simplisafe. The moment I arm my system, I know my family and everything I've worked for are protected. Whether I'm stepping out for the day or settling in for the night, that small action delivers something priceless. Peace of mind. I can focus on what matters, rest easier, and go about my day knowing that Simplisafe has my back in a crisis. And I want you to have that confidence too. Because it's not just the mundane day to days we all go on vacation. Sometimes you're away from your home for like a full week. And what I love about Simplisafe is that you can be at home with the click of a button. I click those buttons, bring up my cameras and I know exactly what is going on on my property and I feel safe while I'm away because of the active guard outdoor protection with Simplisafe, millions of Americans enjoy the new standard in home security and greater peace of mind every time they arm their system. Visit simplisafe.commorbid to claim 50 off a new system with a professional mon plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com morbid. There's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Ash]

Now, while things started out fine in the relationship, Teresa soon found herself in a relationship with yet another abusive man. For more than a year, she suffered verbal, physical, and emotional abuse at her piece of shit husband's hands. She was beaten with his fists. She was pushed down the stairs while she was pregnant with their child. And at one point, he even threw a pot of scalding coffee at her.

[Elena]

What a fucking monster.

[Ash]

And finally, he just. Because, you know, he was a piece of shit in every way. He just grew tired of the relationship, and he didn't really want to be a father. So Jerry Plummer took off, leaving Teresa to raise their daughter Deborah on her own.

[Elena]

He's probably much better off.

[Ash]

And she was earning very little money at the circus, so obviously it was hard. But to her credit, she was very resourceful, very determined. So she found a lawyer and scraped together enough money to file for divorce. And Jerry didn't contest it.

[Elena]

Good.

[Ash]

When Grady first saw Teresa in the ticket booth, he was immediately struck by her beauty, her charm. He just was into it. The problem was, at the time, Grady and his father were a top draw for the circus. And there's like, a hierarchy.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

And he would have been looked down upon for dating one of the ticket takers.

[Elena]

Oh, okay.

[Ash]

Because that's like, the job at the bottom of the hierarchy. Isn't that interesting?

[Elena]

Yeah, that is interesting.

[Ash]

So he. He wasn't. He wasn't gonna move on, though. He was like, I'm not moving on and finding somebody else. Like, I like this girl.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So he began talking Teresa up to one of the owners, Stan Wright, encouraging him to consider her for a job as a Bali girl, which is apparently a term for one of the singing or dancing girls in the show. Because he was like, she's beautiful. Like, why not bring her up there?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

As a ticket taker, dating a performer was off limits. But as a Bali girl, she would be another performer in the show, and their relationship would be very acceptable. Okay. So, fortunately for everyone, Wright did see something he liked in Teresa and was like, you know what? You're right.

[Elena]

Well, that's good. Hopefully she made some more money.

[Ash]

Yeah. And that's the thing. He gave her a chance as a performer. So for Teresa, it was a huge step up. She got some more money and she. So she was able to better provide for Deborah, which Teresa seems like. I feel really bad for Teresa because she seems like she's had this awful life. She's been really taken advantage of and treated horribly by the men in her life, but she just wants to be. Like, she wants to take care of her kids.

[Elena]

Yeah. She wants.

[Ash]

Like, that really does seem like there's a lot of. Like, I really just want to do right by my kids. And she wasn't done right for.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

So it's really hard to break that.

[Elena]

Cycle, especially back then when you had enough, like, no resources, really, to count on as far as therapy and mental health.

[Ash]

Like, she's not being taught how to break this cycle or that it's important at all. You can just tell that Teresa does have something inside of her that just desperately wants to break that cycle.

[Elena]

That's who she is.

[Ash]

She doesn't make. She makes some poor choices later. But I do believe that, like, deep down in there, she just really wanted to do right by her kids.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But this. So this move up also moved her closer to the action at the center of the show and more importantly, to her closer to Grady.

[Elena]

Cause she liked him, too.

[Ash]

She liked him, too. Within a few months, she had moved up from a dancing girl to become a sort of jack of all trades within the performances. One of her more prominent roles was Blade Box Girl, which was a kind of assistant to the magic act, where she would step into the box and appear to be stabbed a million times with swords, but come out and be like, I'm fine.

[Elena]

Oh, my God, that must have been real scary.

[Ash]

Yeah. So she was the lovely assistant, essentially, at the same time as she was so excited to be on stage, she was so excited that Grady Stiles had chosen her as the object of his affection. Having only ever known very negative and abusive attention from the men in her life. Being with Grady, she said, was unlike anything she'd ever experienced. He was showering her with gifts, with praise, attention, making her feel wanted and adored.

[Elena]

Ooh.

[Ash]

She said Grady was such a charming man. Everyone enjoyed being in his company. Yeah. Now, not long after beginning their relationship, they started living together and with Grady. Grady was now stepping in as a father to Deborah, and it seemed like everything was going great. In the off season, they returned to Gibsonton, where Teresa found work in a Tampa shrimp factory during the off season. And within a few years, their first child, Margaret, was born. Unfortunately, less than a month after Margaret was born, she died from pneumonia.

[Elena]

Oh, that's terrible.

[Ash]

The situation repeated itself with their next child, David, who also died a month. A month after his birth from pneumonia. And it was attributed to the poor living Conditions of life in a traveling circus. Wow. Now, the health problems continued for the Stiles family, because a few months later, Grady Stiles senior was struggling with poor health too. Finally, he decided to retire from traveling altogether. Now, unable to afford the cost of living in Florida, Grady senior moved back to Pittsburgh and found a small apartment there. So now Grady Jr. Is worried about his parents. Pittsburgh because they're in poor health.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And he's in Florida. So he started renting an apartment in the city so he could check on them and be around them. The apartment was a huge financial strain on them, obviously, because it's just another expense. So to help support them in the off season, Grady Jr. Began performing in a one man show to make extra money when they weren't on the road. The work allowed him to support himself and his wife. But this additional work, plus the stress of traveling back and forth to Pittsburgh and the unexpected, tragic deaths of two.

[Elena]

Children, like, that's a lot on your plate.

[Ash]

It brought out a meanness in Grady that Teresa said she had never seen even the slightest hint of before.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

So this came. She was like, this came out of nowhere.

[Elena]

He didn't deal well with stress and grief.

[Ash]

A lot of people say that the death of a child will change. You can change a relationship, and it really depends on one, the strength of the relationship to begin with. And, you know, things that are lying dormant in the people that are experiencing it. So obviously something was lying dormant in Grady styles that. That's just brought it right out, brought it all out. So the bitterness, this frustration, the. The rage it all. And what he saw as his constant misfortune, it led him to start drinking heavily, which only exacerbated the anger. And before long, he was directing it all at Theresa. Oh, no. According to Fred Rosen, Grady was a good provider. However, when he was drinking, Grady started beating Teresa, taking care to keep his blows to her body so no one would see the bruises.

[Elena]

Wow. And to me, that is diabolical. That is diabolical because you know what you're doing is wrong. And you're not even just to have the wherewithal to think like that.

[Ash]

Clearly. Yeah, I shouldn't do it somewhere that someone can see. Yeah, that's.

[Elena]

That's dark.

[Ash]

In 1963, Teresa gave birth for a third time. And this time, the baby would not only survive, but also managed to not inherit Grady's condition.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

The healthy birth of their daughter Donna was a relief to Teresa, who obviously already experienced two traumatic births and traumatic deaths. But the girl's health like, seemingly quote, unquote, normal mobility seemed to fuel Grady's anger. Oh. Following Donna's birth, Grady began to drink even more than he had. He was staying out late with other carnies and sometimes not coming home for days. Fred Rosen said when he did come home, he would generally make it to the living room and pass out on the floor. Sometimes he'd throw up first and sleep in his own vomit.

[Elena]

Oh, fuck.

[Ash]

In the morning, Deborah and Donna would get up and they would have to step over Grady to get out of the trailer. So the children would have to just step over him in his own vomit to get out of their house.

[Elena]

That's horrific.

[Ash]

Now, looking back on her childhood, Donna reflected on her childhood saying, there was nothing really good I can recall.

[Elena]

Yeah. I mean, when you're stepping over your dad in his own vomit, his. To leave your home.

[Ash]

That's. She said he always drank, continually drank. I really started noticing it at about seven, because he would yell at us if he was drinking at home.

[Elena]

That's so sad.

[Ash]

Seven years old.

[Elena]

To realize that at seven years old is fucked.

[Ash]

For a time, the girls could rely on school to get away from this whole abuse. But even that was unreliable because Grady would routinely pull them out of school three or four months before the end of the year to help the traveling show.

[Elena]

It's like, how are they even moving on at school?

[Ash]

Exactly. In 1969, Teresa gave birth again, this time to a daughter they named Catherine, who was born with the condition.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

The birth of their second daughter should have been a joyous occasion for any couple. But it didn't do anything to stop Grady's drinking or lessen the violence in the household. Things finally came to a head one night in the mid-1970s when Grady and Teresa got into a really bad argument after the show. Donna said that night after closing, he called mom out in the show. They were arguing. She came back into the trailer crying. And then he came back in the trailer, pulled the door open, let it slam real hard, and he took $20 and he threw it at her. After throwing the money at her, he screamed, take your fucking kids and get out of my face.

[Elena]

Oh, her kids.

[Ash]

Her kids.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Yeah. Literally fuck this guy.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, he's awful because he does this, and then what he does later, I'm like, go fuck yourself.

[Elena]

And in front of his kids.

[Ash]

Oh, he does awful shit. To the girl's surprise. And this is where you. You really see moments of Teresa just making, like, very smart choices for her kids. And then obviously, you know, she's A very abused woman. Yeah, Very abused, very traumatized. So she obviously makes some questionable ones later.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

But this is one that really shocked the girls as well, because he's a scary guy. So they were surprised because their mother did not say, like, oh, he's just drunkenly ranting, like, just leave him alone. Which often would happen. Instead, she just looked at them and she said, pack a bag and we're leaving. And she packed her own suitcase and they all left. And they got a room at a motel across the street. Once they were there, she called her friend Harry, Glenn Newman, who was part of the circus as well. He was known. And this is what he was known by back then. He was known as midget man.

[Elena]

Oh, man.

[Ash]

Due to his small stature. Gotcha. Things were different then.

[Elena]

Things were real.

[Ash]

Things were bad then. Yeah. After leaving Grady that night, Glenn became a lifesaver for Teresa. He allowed them all, the girls and her to live in a small camper until they all on his property until they all moved to Ohio to live with Glen's mother.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

For several months, the children finally got to enjoy stability and normalcy of children their age. Like, things were happy.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Without the chaos of this traveling show or, you know, a rageful, abusive, like, alcoholic father. Unfortunately, that was short lived because about four months, five months after leaving Grady, Teresa received a summons and traveled to a Pennsylvania courthouse with the girls. Unbeknownst to her, after she left Grady, he filed for divorce and petitioned the court for custody of the children.

[Elena]

Even though he literally told her to leave with her children.

[Ash]

Oh, there's.

[Elena]

Oh, they're yours now.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Because now she had been unaware of the divorce.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

Did it without her knowing.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

And he didn't. She didn't know that he had filed for custody.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So she didn't contest anything because she didn't know it had happened.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

And the court awarded. Awarded full custody of the children.

[Elena]

Are you kidding me?

[Ash]

Which is so up.

[Elena]

Yeah, it is.

[Ash]

Grady took the girls back to Florida with him, which just breaks my heart because I truly believe if these girls have been allowed to live with Teresa and Glenn, they would have had a totally different childhood.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

They could have started healing from things.

[Elena]

They were young enough to hopefully forget.

[Ash]

Some things they get even more traumatized.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

So Grady takes the girls back to Florida with him, but only long enough to sell the house they lived in and get rid of all his wife's belongings.

[Elena]

Oh, that's normal.

[Ash]

Kathy later said Catherine said he gave all of mom's whatnots, lamps and all of her stuff to his sister. He would not let her come back to get her clothes, which included a fur coat and some evening dresses. He gave away all of her clothes.

[Elena]

That's so fucked up.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That's abusive in its own way.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You know.

[Ash]

Oh, he's just an asshole. With Teresa out of the picture, Grady began seeing a woman named Barbara, who quickly moved herself and her daughter in with the Stiles family full time. Catherine said later she wanted to put herself in my mom's place. She wanted to be our mother. She tried to force herself onto us, but she wasn't trying to be like a mother. She was. Because Theresa was known by her children, they all agree she was a loving, caring, kind mother.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like flat.

[Elena]

Like a mama.

[Ash]

She was a mama. Barbara only seemed interested in playing the role to the extent that it got her closer to Grady. So she's that stepmother.

[Elena]

She's Meredith blaking it.

[Ash]

Yeah. Rather than actually do any parenting, most of the responsibility for raising the children, including Barbara's daughter Susie, fell to Donna, since Deborah had decided to move out of the house after the divorce.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Now. After moving the family back to Pittsburgh to be near his parents, Grady's drunken, violent behavior continued without interruption, including the period where Barbara was pregnant with their child. In 1976, Barbara gave birth to a boy, the couple named Grady iii, who was born with the same condition as his father and his half sister at this point.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

In the meantime, Teresa kept living with Glenn Newman, who turned out to be a pretty good husband and a good provider. In 1974, she gave birth to a boy, Harry Glenn Jr. Known as Glenny everybody. They were obviously very happy to have a new little baby boy, but she had a profound sense of pain and loss of having lost her children to give Grady because he was refusing to let her see them. Wow. So she was trying her everything she could to see them or have contact with them, and he wouldn't let them.

[Elena]

And it's like, why did he get full custody? I mean, very different time again. But.

[Ash]

Yeah. Despite everything, though, Teresa was still hopeful that one day she was going to be able to have a relationship with her daughters again. So she convinced Glenn to move to Pittsburgh. Wow. And Glenn was like, let's go.

[Elena]

Glenn seems like the best guy I know.

[Ash]

He. So they moved to Pittsburgh to be closer to the girls so she could start really trying to get them back.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, this pissed Grady off in a massive way. In the winter of 1976, the full extent of Grady's cruelty became apparent. When after some conversation, he agreed to let Teresa take the girls to visit her mother in Vermont for Christmas.

[Elena]

Oh, this is gonna ruin me.

[Ash]

But rather than have Glenn and Teresa just pick them up, Grady insisted they meet him at a bar near his apartment, where he proceeded to get violently drunk. After downing five or six drinks, they all went back to the apartment to get the girls, only to discover that none of the girls were there. The place was empty. Sitting on the couch, Grady reached beneath him and pulled out a revolver.

[Elena]

Oh God.

[Ash]

Pointing it at Glenn and Teresa. Moments later, Paul Fishbaugh, who was the sideshows known as the Fat man, emerged from another room holding a shotgun.

[Elena]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

With Paul Fishbaugh now guarding Glen, who remember, has very small stature, right? So this giant man is holding this smaller man so he can't protect his wife. So he can't protect his wife with a shotgun. Grady then started beating Teresa viciously in front of her husband. Her helpless husband. Baby Glen was also there and was screaming the entire time.

[Elena]

Oh my God.

[Ash]

Yeah. When he'd finally tired of hitting Teresa, he let them leave before. But not before telling them, don't bother me anymore. Next time I'm going to kill you, Glenn, and your son. Wow. That was because she had agreed to to let her daughters go for Christmas.

[Elena]

Why don't you just say no?

[Ash]

Yeah, because he's a cruel son of a bitch.

[Elena]

He is.

[Ash]

His cruelty continued in the years that followed. And even moving out of the apartment wasn't enough to escape it. In April 1978, when Donna was 15 years old, her cousin introduced her to 18 year old Jack Lane. And the two hit it off immediately, knowing her father would do anything he could to drive Jack away. Because why would you allow your daughters to have happiness? The couple frequently met in secret, often spending time together in a park a few blocks away from the apartment. One evening in September, after hearing countless stories of Grady's abuse, Jack was like, I can't let you go back there.

[Elena]

Like I don't.

[Ash]

I can't just keep sending you back to this place and hearing what he does to you. So Jack took Donna to his sister's apartment, trying to give her some space to be safe, right? When she called home a few days later, Grady fucking lost it. Screaming at her, demanding she return home immediately. And he told her, I got detectives looking for you, they'll find you. And when I find that boy that's with you, I'm gonna kill him.

[Elena]

Oh no.

[Ash]

Now for. And she's telling him, like, he's a good guy. He just wants to keep, like, take.

[Elena]

Care of me because you.

[Ash]

Yeah. For years, Donna had listened to her father's drunken rants and threats of violence against her mother and her siblings. And she'd suffer more. She'd suffered more than the others when it came to physical abuse. But when it came to threats of killing Jack, Donna was like, I didn't believe that he was going to go through with it.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

Like, I understood that he, like, beat the out of us and threatened us, but, like, I didn't think he would do it outside of our family, kill someone. What she didn't know was on September 11th, Grady went down to Pit Lone, a local pawn shop, and submitted an application to purchase a new H&R.32 caliber pistol. Donna didn't return home, but kept living with Jack's sister for several more days, fearing what was going to happen if she went home. Yeah. Donna and Jack decided the only way to get her away from her father for good was for them to get married. But she was only 15 years old, right? So she would need parental consent. And in late September, she called her father and explained what she wanted to do. And to her surprise, he didn't object.

[Elena]

That's terrifying because it sounds like Christmas.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

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[Ash]

Donna and Jack plan to get married in a small ceremony on September 28, and in the days before it, they took all the details, took care of everything, including applying for the marriage license, getting the blood test you had to get back then, you.

[Elena]

Had to do a blood test.

[Ash]

On the morning of September 27, Donna met Jack at his house and the two went out to do some shopping before returning to Grady's apartment where Donna was planning to clean for the wedding reception. So, like he was gonna be involved in this. It was gonna be. They weren't running away to get married. She was doing it all.

[Elena]

She was involving him.

[Ash]

When they arrived, Grady wasn't home, but he had instead gone down to a bar, of course, where he stayed until 7pm and drank 12 double whiskeys.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So 24 whiskeys.

[Ash]

Yeah. So they went out to get some food for the reception and when they got home around 7:30, they found a very drunk Grady sitting on the couch. His wheelchair was nowhere in sight. Grady Said he had left it out by the front door and someone stole it. It. So they all were like, oh, shit. So they volunteered to go out into the neighborhood and look for it. As they were all leaving the house, Grady said, actually, Jack, why don't you stay back with me? No. And Donna recalled, Barbara and I went around into the metered parking lot out back looking for the wheelchair. We were just about halfway around and I heard a bang. And then I heard a bang again immediately after. And I ran towards the house. When I got there, Jack came stumbling out of the house. He was holding his chest in the middle.

[Elena]

Oh, God, blood.

[Ash]

When he reached Donna, he collapsed on the ground and began coughing out blood.

[Elena]

And they were just gonna get married.

[Ash]

And he's like her protector.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And she. Donna said it didn't seem real. It seemed like a joke. I looked up and dad was standing on his knees looking out the window, smiling at me.

[Elena]

What a son of a.

[Ash]

When she asked why he'd done it, he said, because I told you I would.

[Elena]

What he is? Cruel isn't even the word. He's so far beyond.

[Ash]

He's a piece of absolute demon. By then, they could hear sirens coming when they arrived. Barbara explained. So that stepmother explained what they believed happened and pointed them in the direction. So she was like, he did it. Like, yeah. She was like, that's fucked up. And Grady was sitting in a large overstuffed chair, the gun sitting on an end table beside him. And according to Detective Joseph Stottlemeier, when the arresting officers entered the room, he said, take me, I'm ready. And he was arrested without incident.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

The bullet entered Jack's chest on the left side and exited from his right shoulder. He was rushed to the hospital by ambulance, but he died a few hours later from his wounds.

[Elena]

Oh, that's just awful.

[Ash]

That also escalated the crime from attempted murder to second degree murder. Grady was taken to the county jail to await his arraignment.

[Elena]

Also. I wonder why second degree?

[Ash]

I think it was because he said.

[Elena]

He was going to. That's very much first degree.

[Ash]

That's what I'm saying. I think that should have been first. First degree. Yeah. I don't think it would have mattered either way because in the meantime, a coroner's inquest was held to determine exactly what the happened in that. In that apartment. And during the inquest, Donna explained that she and Jack had run off together a few weeks earlier and that her father had, quote, not been happy about the impending marriage, though he had consented to it during his Testimony. Detective Stottlemeier recounted Grady's statement telling the panel of juries of the jury that Grady claimed he had heard talk in the street that Lane, which is Jack, had been saying nasty things about his daughter, and he had taken all he could take, pulled out his.32 caliber revolver and shot Lane.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's not how it happened.

[Ash]

No, that's not it at all. Grady was arraigned on a charge of third degree murder. And in early 1979, the case went to trial. Over the course of several weeks, a number of family members testified that Grady had made threats towards Jack and Donna. And Donna herself testified that she had been with her father when he purchased the gun. However, several other witnesses, including Grady, indicated he had purchased the gun because Barbara had been receiving threatening phone calls.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Testifying in his own defense, Grady told the jury that Donna had changed since she started dating Jack. Yeah, she's probably happier, more independent. She would sneak out of the house late at night and come home sometimes with beer on her breath.

[Elena]

Oh, honey.

[Ash]

Okay. Glass house for real. Okay. Glass house. Grady also claimed that once they were alone, Jack had come at him in a menacing fashion.

[Elena]

I bet.

[Ash]

And he said, I don't know what came over him, but I was scared, I guess, of him killing me.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

I doubt it.

[Elena]

Yeah. The projection here is wild.

[Ash]

Yeah. As for all the contradictory evidence and witness statements, Grady claimed all those people, including the police, got together and fabricated their stories.

[Elena]

The police often do that.

[Ash]

That's a real dumb thing to say.

[Elena]

Say, for sure. Totally.

[Ash]

On February 22, 1979, the jury retired for deliberation and returned a little over three hours later to find Grady guilty of third degree murder. When the verdict was read, Grady began weeping at the defense table. The verdict came as a surprise to many, including the prosecutor, who actually expected an acquittal would come because of sympathy for his condition.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

However, while the verdict was like, yippee, it also posed some complications. Primarily, was there a jail or prison in Pennsylvania capable of accommodating someone in Grady's condition for as long as 15 or 20 years?

[Elena]

And there wasn't.

[Ash]

After careful consideration, the answer was no.

[Elena]

That's ridiculous.

[Ash]

Yes. In the end, Judge Thomas Harper did his best to find middle ground and sentenced Grady to 15 years of probation, noting, quote, no prison in the state can accommodate a person with his physical deformities. That's a quote. After reading the sentence in court, the judge said, I'm not sure that a prison term would not be cruel and unusual punishment in this case. Society doesn't require vengeance. And I felt a probationary term met the best interests for society and the defendant. The prosecution, though disappointed with the sentence, didn't make a comment.

[Elena]

I mean, that's a tough.

[Ash]

That sucks.

[Elena]

That's awful. He killed a man.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like, it sucks that nobody was willing, nobody could.

[Elena]

Because that's the thing.

[Ash]

It's like you can't just accommodate him out. And it's like nobody could accommodate him. And that now he gets to.

[Elena]

Because I wonder what he. What he would have required, aside from like something wheelchair accessible.

[Ash]

I think that's enough.

[Elena]

That's it.

[Ash]

Right. I think that's enough for it.

[Elena]

And they didn't have.

[Ash]

They didn't have that. Because think about it. It just wasn't a priority back then.

[Elena]

70S, though.

[Ash]

Like, it's crazy.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Anyway, now after Jack's murder.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Cold blooded murder. His sister and other family members blamed Donna for his death and refused to allow her to stay with them any longer. So she was allowed by court order, luckily, to return to Florida to live with her mother, Teresa and Glenn, finally.

[Elena]

So that's great.

[Ash]

Under the circumstances.

[Elena]

Really shitty like that. She didn't do anything wrong.

[Ash]

I know. And under the circumstances, I love this too. Because Teresa also insisted Donna bring Catherine with her. And Grady did not put up a fight. Oh, wow. So they were able to go live with Teresa and Glenn.

[Elena]

And those were the only two of the daughters left in his care. Right.

[Ash]

Because Deborah had moved out early on.

[Elena]

And she was older.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Now, throughout the 1980s, though, life for Glenn, Teresa and the kids was a struggle. After his tire business went under, Glen was forced to return to the carnival circus to perform his role as the world's smallest man. And once again, Teresa found herself kind of back where she started trying to figure stuff out. Every year, when the school year would come to an end, they would have to pack up the kids and join Glenn on the road to help with responsibilities. It was seeming to like a pattern was repeating here. Because that's difficult.

[Elena]

Yeah, of course.

[Ash]

And Glenn was having difficulty because he was getting older. It was not easy. For more than a decade, they had had a good marriage. He had been a stable, very constant presence in Teresa's life. And he had treated her better than any other man, and he was a good father to the children. But as the 80s came to a close, she was starting to feel a little restless in the marriage. And she was kind of growing tired of being, you know, a constant helper and just going along for the ride, you know, like having to go out on the road and doing all that stuff. And she loved kids. Yeah. And she sees that she's doing the same pattern, just with a nicer man. You know what I mean? But it's still the same, like. Like, I'm not doing right by these kids by taking them on the road. It's a tough life, you know? And so in 1990, Teresa and Glenn divorced and she moved out, taking the kids with her. It should have been a liberating moment, you know, because she. She spent her entire life waiting on accommodating following, having to be the assistant for men. But she quickly found herself lonely because she's also a human being. In response, she called up Grady. And this is where we get to where I say, what? What? Yeah, what? Here's the thing, though. So he had separated from his wife, and in the years since his conviction. I know, I'm sorry.

[Elena]

Me and Mikey are literally, like, looking at each other like, what the.

[Ash]

I agree. I'm with you on this. I'm shocked. I am shocked. I am dismayed. Grady had been on house arrest during this time because of the probation.

[Elena]

13 fucking years for murdering. Murdering her daughter's fiance.

[Ash]

So he could not continue drinking the way he was on probation. So he had scaled back, and for the first time in many years, he was pretty sober.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So for Theresa, she thought she was seeing a glimpse at the Grady she knew when they were first dating.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Because remember, she got kind of love bombed. Yes. Not kind of.

[Elena]

She got love bombed. Love bombed.

[Ash]

And she saw this amazing man who was like. And they had gone so far as to get married very happily.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Had children very happily. And then it was like, everything just imploded right at once. And then he became a heavy drinker and things got worse. So for her, I'm just trying to, like. I'm just trying to, like, not on Teresa, because, like, I feel like Teresa had such a life and such hardships that I. Yeah. And I just feel for the family. You know what I mean? Like, I feel for these children. I feel for. I don't know. It's just a very sad situation.

[Elena]

I'm sure being in a relationship like that, like, alters your brain chemistry.

[Ash]

That's the thing. I. I'm trying not to, like, judge too hard for her because I'm like. I don't know what it's like to have been in that kind of no.

[Elena]

Turmoil and, I mean, children with somebody.

[Ash]

And, like, to have your children be in that turn, like, I can't. I can't fathom it. I really can't. So while I don't understand this decision.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I don't. I don't understand. I can at least stand from back here and say, I don't know what your life feels like. Right. And I don't know what it felt for you to think you were seeing a hint of who you fell in love with. Yeah.

[Elena]

You have to have empathy for yourself.

[Ash]

That's the thing. So that's why I'm like stepping back from my full blown judgment here and trying to look at it from like you were seeing someone you. You. You fell in love with or you thought you were. You know what I mean? It's just a really fucked up, sad situation. I really feel just awful for these children, for them, for really especially Donna. That's the thing. Well, that's the thing. That's where I say, what the fuck?

[Elena]

Like, that's just a level for your father to kill your husband, like days before you're to marry him.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Not go to prison because of all the different circumstances. Finally get away from him, even though, like, his, his family thinks that it's your fault. Then you get to go live with your mother again.

[Ash]

And she brings that man back into your life.

[Elena]

Right back into his.

[Ash]

That's the thing. Like Donna, all of them, all those kids, I feel bad. But the person I feel most, most for is Donna. I feel so horrible because that's just.

[Elena]

Such like, trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma. And it's like it's compounding trauma.

[Ash]

It's also like Teresa has kind of been molded since she was a child, truly, to bend to the whims of men and accommodate them and kind of, you know, demean yourself for them. Like, not really think of yourself as an independent person who can do this.

[Elena]

Who can break out on their own.

[Ash]

And even in her moments of doing it, you know what I mean? I feel like she always gets sucked back in with some man who's kind of taking the reins.

[Elena]

Yeah. I mean, she's a victim.

[Ash]

And so she's a victim of her own. Right. But then it's like these children are a victim of these men and also their. Unfortunately, their mother's trauma of not being able to be without these men. And it's like, so there's this awful. And that's what I meant when I was saying, like, you can see that there was. Teresa wanted to break this cycle, but there was. She was for a time, broken that she was struggling to fix. And I think it just makes me really sad that, like, all of these young women and all of them were embroiled in this.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because it's like, what the fuck? Like, it's just like, this guy is a monster.

[Elena]

It's just trash.

[Ash]

A straight up monster. And it's like Teresa wanted to break free. That's why I just am, like, I wanted her to break free with Glenn and those kids right off the jump.

[Elena]

I know.

[Ash]

Because it's like, this would have been such a different story.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But Grady had to be cruel, and he had to pull those kids back just to abuse them.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

Just to traumatize them. And it's like, I don't think they would have lived with this much trauma if they had lived with Teresa.

[Elena]

So she goes. She goes back and does. He does step out again. Like, so for.

[Ash]

Again, for Teresa, this whole thing is. And I'm just speaking from. What she's saying is that she's saying she saw a glimpse of who she fell in love with. She saw a sober Grady who she thought could, you know, be who he was. So they were talking regularly over the phone. Still, Theresa knew her children, especially Donna, disapproved of any of this, any kind of relationship with Grady, so she wouldn't bring him up around them. But they knew, like, obviously. And also, why are you even doing. If you know that they can't have a part of this? It's, like, why you even do it. It's just not something you should be doing.

[Elena]

Yeah. Old habits die hard.

[Ash]

Donna later said. I still wouldn't talk to him on the phone, and she wouldn't talk about him with us.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Following her divorce from Glenn, Teresa moved the kids to Okeechobee, Florida. And again, they're moving everywhere all the time. And soon, Grady had relocated back to Gibsonton, Florida, where he'd spent much of his life. As he and Teresa got kind of reacquainted with one another, she encouraged the kids to spend time with him.

[Elena]

Okay. I can understand. I'm sure, like, I can't understand it, but I'm sure in her mind, it was important for them to have their father.

[Ash]

And it's. Again, something is broken here.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

Like, Teresa has dealt with things that. And it's. Again, it doesn't give anybody a past to be a bad parent.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

And I think she would probably agree that this was one of the worst choices she could have made.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because honestly, she does regret this choice later.

[Elena]

She does.

[Ash]

So there's that.

[Elena]

And we have to remember that we're looking at this through A lens where, like, we know so much.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

About so much now that, that we didn't know about back then.

[Ash]

But again, it does not give a pass to put your children through this kind of stuff. It just doesn't. And I personally, I cannot understand it. I'm trying to look at it through a very logical, like, totally kind of disconnected lens of like, well, this is what she's thinking, because that's what she said. And I don't want to like, shit all over her because she's been through a lot.

[Elena]

No, that's it. You can't understand, but you can empathize.

[Ash]

Exactly. I can't understand. I can empathize with what she's gone through, but I cannot understand this.

[Elena]

I'm in awe right now.

[Ash]

And again, all the kids, and they're getting older now especially too. They're like, becoming teenagers and stuff. They're all reluctant to go down this road again because, you know, there was no one happens. There was the murder of somebody's fiance. There was that.

[Elena]

Sherry Papini went missing in 2016. The story that the world thinks they know is that I am a master manipulator. She is California's real life gone girl.

[Ash]

It's not me.

[Elena]

This was a hoax. Oh, you're only talking now because you got caught.

[Ash]

And could this person be playing you?

[Elena]

This is just a lie. Now I get to tell the truth. Sherry Pepini, caught in The Lie, an ID documentary event, Monday at 9.

[Ash]

At first they were like, no, we're not into this. But when they saw that Grady was trying to maintain sobriety and he was showing them that he was. And he was very open about the fact that he was very interested in rebuilding a relationship. This is their father.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Again, I have a good dad, so I can't speak from somebody who has a shitty parent who has made steps. Oh, I so can. To make the relationship better. You know what I mean?

[Elena]

Oh, actually, I can't do that.

[Ash]

Exactly. So I don't want to speak from this, like, experience to say, like, I don't understand how they could even, you know, entertain this because, again, I didn't have. I was lucky enough to not have this situation.

[Elena]

Well, I think when you have such a shitty parent like you, you. All you want is for them to be better.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And all you want, like, abandonment issues are insane. Like these. I can't imagine what these kids must have felt.

[Ash]

They can paint every single part of your life.

[Elena]

Yeah. And they do. Like, I. I'm fine. I'm very well adjusted. But Like, I still struggle with that, I'm sure. So if you. If your parent is actually making the effort, that's all you want. So of course that's. You're gonna go along with it.

[Ash]

I mean, obviously, I've just never been.

[Elena]

In a position of somebody making effort.

[Ash]

Well, yeah, there you go. And I have people close to me, like, very close to me, who had awful relationships with their parents, and then their parents tried to make it right later. And it is a very conflicting, very hard thing for somebody, even as an adult, to deal with. Because no matter what, no matter how shitty your parents are, there's still your parents in some weird part of you is always going to want them to be your parents.

[Elena]

Well, no, they're always your parents.

[Ash]

When your parents suck, I think it's.

[Elena]

So hard to make those kind of decisions. Like, when somebody is making an effort because you're always their child.

[Ash]

That. Yeah. I can't imagine. You know what I mean?

[Elena]

And you go back into the role of being the child.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And feeling the things that you felt when you were a child, like, wanting your parent.

[Ash]

Yeah. Because, like, biologically, we all haven't. We wanted parents to be our safe place. Yeah.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

And when they're not, I can't imagine how that throws you into, like. Cause again, I'm very fortunate enough that I do not have parents who made me feel unsafe.

[Elena]

Yeah. Ma and Papa rock out loud.

[Ash]

They do. They rock out loud. So it's like I'm speaking from a place where, like, I can't tell you how this feels. And I know a lot of you listening are speaking can come from a place of the total opposite, where your parents weren't and aren't and couldn't be your safety. And I'm sorry, because I can't imagine how that feels. And it can trans. It can really transform how you make decisions.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It can color every part of your existence.

[Elena]

Especially, like, with, like. I'm just thinking of, like, how therapy just, like, was not a thing back then. Yeah. And, like, not. Not really at all.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

I would be so different if I hadn't done years and years of therapy.

[Ash]

That's the thing. And we're adding on again, I know, like, people I really love and care about who have gone through, like, dealing with parents coming back and trying to build a relationship and really putting an effort. But those parents also didn't kill their spouse.

[Elena]

That's a whole other layer of it.

[Ash]

That's a whole layer onto this where I'm like.

[Elena]

Cause then you add grief into it.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

And blame. And.

[Ash]

And you took someone I love from.

[Elena]

Me, like, quite literally.

[Ash]

Like, you literally took someone I love. And that's where I say, like, teresa, how could you ask them to do this?

[Elena]

That's the thing with Donna.

[Ash]

It's just, how can you ask her to do this? This? And again, you're her mother. She's gonna want to please you, and.

[Elena]

You'Re supposed to protect her.

[Ash]

It's like. And that's where the safe space gets snipped for a minute, because that. Your mother shouldn't be asking you to do this.

[Elena]

Yeah. I also think it's probably. And I'm sure people listening feel this way. It's so. Again, I. I can't understand, but I can have empathy. But it is hard to have empathy in a situation like this.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Elena]

I haven't even gone through something similar to that exactly.

[Ash]

At all.

[Elena]

But, like. Like, when. So when somebody wrongs their child and you're a child who's been wronged, you're just like, God damn it.

[Ash]

Well, that's the thing. And I have, like, I. I always have to pull myself back a little bit because I get real fucking mad when people mistreat their kids. Well, because you're not even a mistreated kid. I just. I think of my kids and you.

[Elena]

Think of your kids. And, like, frankly, like, just for everybody who thinks that me and Elena have a weird relationship, Elena's my protector. Like, genuinely, like your people's protector. And the other people in your life who have gone through similar things. Things, you're their protector. So you're like, don't wrong them.

[Ash]

I'm like, I'm gonna. You up. You are this kid.

[Elena]

So that's why you feel that way Because. Because you're the safe space. Yes.

[Ash]

Oh, thank you. I appreciate it.

[Elena]

No, you are.

[Ash]

That's what I'd strive to be for my little. You are goobins in my life. But. And you are. You are one of my little goobies. I am in my life, and I think of, like, who wronged you? And I want to. You know, this has become therapy.

[Elena]

Anyway, what happens? What happened?

[Ash]

But, yeah, I think it just. He seemed like he was trying to get sober. He was doing his best with that. And then he was making it clear to them that he wanted to rebuild.

[Elena]

The relationship and that he felt some kind of.

[Ash]

Some kind of remorse. Regret.

[Elena]

Yeah. And remorse.

[Ash]

So they softened.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

But still, genuine or not, he couldn't wipe away the lifetime worth of horrible, abusive, violent, horrific, traumatizing memories.

[Elena]

You just can't.

[Ash]

And Donna says, I don't think I ever started loving my father like a dad again. Which is very sad.

[Elena]

Well, you know what, though?

[Ash]

It is very sad that, like, she didn't ever get that ability to do it.

[Elena]

He wasn't her dad.

[Ash]

Well, that's. He took. I hope she knows that that is not her inability to love him again. It was his inability to be a lovable person.

[Elena]

Right. He never was a father to, like.

[Ash]

Give that to her.

[Elena]

How can you love somebody like a father when they're not a father to you?

[Ash]

He was never a father.

[Elena]

And when they take away somebody who finally did protect and wanted to protect. Right.

[Ash]

Like, so that I really hope that, like, Donna and their kids, like, know that they have done nothing wrong in this situation and that they. They were totally valid in their feelings and their hesitation here. Now, not long after Grady moved back to Florida, he and Teresa got remarried.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Which seemed to have been his goal. Seemed that since that first phone call Teresa made to him after her divorce.

[Elena]

Uh huh.

[Ash]

And unfortunately, once Grady got what he wanted, he begins sliding right back into his old ways.

[Elena]

That's tragic. That is truly tragic for everyone involved.

[Ash]

And I'll say, fortunately for some of the children, all of them had moved out by then, except for Glenny, who was a teenager.

[Elena]

Okay. And he's not Grady's child, so I can only imagine how Grady felt about that.

[Ash]

Exactly. But soon enough, even the kids that were out of the house were starting to notice that their father wasn't very around very often. And they would call or visit and he wouldn't be there. And, you know, he'd be spending time at bars again. He was out for days. And eventually Teresa did admit to Donna that Grady was fully back in his old ways. Like spending all their money at bars.

[Elena]

Abusing her right back.

[Ash]

Yeah, right back to it. And because his temper came right back. The frustrations, the anger, the rage, he was abusing her. He was abusing like it was bad. One night in late 1991, after a night out drinking, he returned home and demanded that Teresa bring him a drink in bed. So Teresa did. But she handed him the drink and she said, this is the last drink I'm gonna get you.

[Elena]

Uh huh.

[Ash]

And in response, he grabbed a handful of her hair and yanked her back on the bed hard enough to pull clumps of it from her scalp. Oh, fuck. Do remember too. She's horribly afraid of this man now. Of course she is.

[Elena]

He's beaten the shit out of her for Years.

[Ash]

Which makes it worse that she is now in this position again. Because, like, I wish you had stayed away from him.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because, like, he has gone most of his life also keeping that upper body strength. So he's. Oh, I didn't even see him. Not only is he a frightening and very rage strong, like, raging guy, he's very, very strong. And when you're. You have crazy upper body strength, you can do a lot of damage. Yeah. Of course, now, after this whole incident happened, Teresa felt that feeling she hadn't felt in years, which is, I'm fucking tired of this.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

She'd had enough. And so getting. She said this whole. That whole thing was a mistake. I should have never got. She says it, I should have never gotten back together with him. And she said, but now I am facing the consequences of my actions.

[Elena]

Oh, God.

[Ash]

Gosh. She thought about leaving again, but by then she didn't have the same resources or willpower that she'd had the last time she left him. And he had been getting. He had been using all their money at bars. So she stayed and endured the abuse, which was inevitably followed by the sense of guilt for having fallen right back into Grady's trap.

[Elena]

It's a cycle.

[Ash]

Exactly. By November, it really shows you how too scary the abuse cycle is and that people will go back into it just because of how deeply rooted the abuse cycle is. It's like, really scary and really sad. The fact that we treat each other this way and the fact that, like, we treat people we supposedly love this way as like a society.

[Elena]

We're the only species.

[Ash]

We gotta get it together. I say that every time. Like, we gotta get it together.

[Elena]

We do.

[Ash]

Like, this kind of pisses me off so much. I'm like, you don't have to be this way. You do not have to be. Be a cruel piece of. To the people who look to you for protection and to be a safe place.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

So by November 1992, life with Grady was unbearable for Teresa and Glenny. Despite his attempts at sobriety a few years earlier, he had just. He was fully back. Fully back to being abusive, cruel and alcoholic. The same man who had beaten her while her husband watched helplessly, by the way, and then had threatened to murder her son Glenn when he was a child. Yep. So that. Yeah. And now that same son is living under the roof with him.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

She was desperate to get out of the house and away from him, but it seemed like no matter what she did or where she looked, there was just no options for escape. In the end, it Wasn't Teresa who took charge of the situation, it was Glenny. But 17 year old Glenn Junior.

[Elena]

I knew it was headed that way.

[Ash]

He resolved to do something about his stepfather. And he wanted to save his mother. That November, Glenn called up the toughest person he could think of, which was 17 year old Chris Wyant. Even though he was just 17, Chris, an occasional sideshow performer, had a very long criminal record. And Glenny was certain Chris would know what to do about his stepfather.

[Elena]

And remember this kid Glen has watched his mother be beaten by this man his entire life.

[Ash]

While his father was held down with a shotgun his entire life.

[Elena]

Just saying, I don't know what happens, but that's what I have in my mind right now.

[Ash]

You can't. Again, no one will ever say that murder is the correct end game for anything.

[Elena]

It's not a good choice.

[Ash]

So if you take that from what we're saying, then like, you didn't listen. You're clearly not listening. But no one's saying that. But what this is a clear show of like evidence of is you cannot beat someone down their entire life. You just can't, like people explode. You just can't do that. You can't treat someone like this for their, their whole life. As we saw with Ken McElroy, that whole thing, you can't do that. No, because you do lose people, lose their humanity for you because you have, you have treated them subhuman their whole life. Like, you know what I mean? It's like I. This kid wanted to protect his mom and it's like really sad. And he didn't know any other option and it's like, obviously he made the wrong decision, right? But like the whole thing is just like, God damn, like he's broken this happen and it's really Sad. So on November 26, Glennie and Chris met at a local park where Glennie gave his friend the details of everything that was happening and said, can you just help me, help me end this. The price would later be disputed in court, but Chris initially told Glenny he would take care of the situation for 300 bucks.

[Elena]

Ooh.

[Ash]

In the end, he would be paid $1,500 regardless of the actual price. Though Chris did agree to take care of Grady and Glenny agreed to pay him.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

A few days later, Glenny would try to call the whole thing off and get his money back. So you can tell he just, he was desperate. And then he was like, fuck, I shouldn't do this. But by then, Chris had already bought a gun and Spent the rest of the money. So the deal went forward as planned. On the evening of November 29th, Glennie broke down and told his mother about the arrangement, which also shows you that this is. He has remorse already. He hasn't. He hasn't even done it. And he's like, I fucked up.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But you can tell the desperation in this case. He's just so desperate to break down and tell his mom. He's just like, I don't know what to do. Like, I just wanted to help you.

[Elena]

Heartbreaking.

[Ash]

Yeah. To his surprise, though, his mother didn't express a sense of shock or attempt to call the police to put an end to the whole thing. Instead, she and Glennie left the house quietly, leaving Grady asleep in his chair watching television. A few Hours later, around 11pm, Chris Wyant slipped into the trailer through the back door they'd left open. Having been there a few times, he knew the layout. So he tried to go silently and be quiet, but he made a noise and he woke Grady up. He began shouting at Chris to get out and never come back. And Chris went back a few steps into the kitchen like he was going to leave. But then he aimed the gun and fired. And the bullet hit Grady in the back of the head and killed him instantly.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Then, just to be sure, he fired two more shots. Both hit Grady in the head just a few centimeters from the first wound. With Grady now dead, Chris ran out the back door and fled into the night. From where they were sitting in the neighbor's living room, Glenny and Teresa could hear the gunshots. Glenny just next door? Yeah, they're just next door. Glennie even remembered looking out the window and seeing Chris run from the trailer.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

And he said when he saw him fleeing the scene, he knew the terror they'd been living with, that his mother had been living with for decades had finally come to an end, and that they would not have to worry about the Lobster Boy again.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

That was what Glenny said to detectives at the scene. Things in the house were immediately suspicious. Obviously, the killer had clearly entered through an unlocked door. Nothing was missing. And so they were like, this wasn't a robbery. This was clearly a targeted assassination. Yeah. A spokesperson for the sheriff's office told reporters the next day, we've got some leads, but we're not saying much. So they were being cagey with the press, and it's likely because they already knew what happened in the Stiles house, and they didn't want to let out any details before they were ready. By the time they finished taking Glenn Jr. S statement that night, they more or less had a pretty accurate understanding of how things had unfolded from his contracting Chris Wyant through the murder. The following morning, they arrested Teresa, Glenn Jr. And Chris Wyant on a charge of first degree murder based on the statements of Teresa and her son.

[Elena]

So they basically just admitted it.

[Ash]

Yeah. Wow. The trial for all three began in July of the next year, with the defense attorney arguing that Theresa and Glenn had been pushed to the point of murder after years of domestic violence. At the time, the domestic violence aspect of the case, which was known as battered wife syndrome, was relatively new and pretty novel. But it turned out they wouldn't get a chance to try it because the judge ordered that self defense cannot be argued if it's a contract murder. Yeah. The case was further disrupted a few days later when a mistrial was declared because there was issues with the jury and the prosecution moved for a retrial. It turned out that they wouldn't end up. They would end up waiting for like over a year for their trial to start. And that's when they were all being tried for first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder, which could carry the death penalty. But the prosecution didn't have any interest in pursuing that.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Under the circumstances, Chris Wyant had pretty limited defense since he had been identified by his two co defendants. In late January 1994, he was found guilty of second degree and guilty of conspiracy to commit first degree murder. And he was sentenced to 27 years in prison for each charge. He was. But it was going to be served concurrently. He was released from prison in 2009 after serving a minimum of 15 years. And he has lived out of the spotlight. Okay, out he goes. Having been ordered for a new trial, though, Teresa once again offered a self defense argument. Her attorney, Arnold Levine, told the jury she honestly believed she had no other alternative but to participate in this terrible act. In response to her defense, the judge ruled that the self defense argument could be allowed, but only if Theresa was willing to admit the role she played in hiring her husband's killer, which she did it. The stipulation struck a lot in the legal. A lot of people in the legal community as like weird and unusual. Law professor Stephen Goldstein told a reporter, I don't understand why she has to testify to it. Like saying that whether she testifies to her role or not, it wouldn't change the outcome.

[Elena]

Right.

[Ash]

Why say she has like this much of a role in it?

[Elena]

Yeah. Especially when she really didn't.

[Ash]

Yeah. She Was just told after the fact she didn't do anything to stop it. But it's like.

[Elena]

Right, But I mean, like, she didn't really. Yeah.

[Ash]

But regardless of whether it was an appropriate stipulation, she did confess her role and offered the domestic abuse stories as her motive. All of which were backed up by testimony from her children and others who'd known her over the years. All of them knew how he was with her.

[Elena]

I mean, this is clearly an abusive man. He was literally on parole for killing his daughter's fiance.

[Ash]

I was gonna say, I mean, hello. In the end, her defense was moderately successful. Although the jury did find her guilty. They all agreed the circumstances warranted a less charge, a lesser charge, and she was convicted of manslaughter in conspiracy to commit first degree murder. It was the first time in Florida's history that a jury allowed. Was allowed to consider self defense in a case of contract murder.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

So this is like.

[Elena]

That's remarkable. Yeah.

[Ash]

After the verdict was read, the prosecution agreed that it was a successful compromise, calling it, quote, a fair resolution of a very difficult issue. In August, a judge sentenced Teresa to 12 years in prison for her role in the murder, followed by five years of probation. Probation. And she was really released from prison in 2000.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

A few months later, Glenn Jr. Was offered a plea deal in which he would confess to everything in exchange for the same sentence as his mother. But apparently Teresa insisted he reject the offer and go to trial.

[Elena]

I don't know about that.

[Ash]

As a result, he went on trial for first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder. And after a very brief trial, they deliberated for just over an hour and found him guilty on both charges.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And sentenced him to 25 years to life murder. Yeah.

[Elena]

Why wouldn't you take a plea deal?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And when there's a charge of conspiracy and like, capital murder and all that. Or not. Yeah. I don't know why you wouldn't take that deal.

[Ash]

But sadly, according to the Florida department of corrections, Glenn Jr. Died on March 5, 2014.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

But they didn't release any details regarding his death.

[Elena]

Oh, that's so sad.

[Ash]

I know. So that is. That's. That's it. Like, that's how it all shakes out. Wow.

[Elena]

That's two of the three ended up start to finish.

[Ash]

They're out of jail. But Glenn Jr. Passed away.

[Elena]

Did he. Was he born with the condition? No, because.

[Ash]

No, because he was his child. Son.

[Elena]

I didn't know if it was like complications from that maybe or something.

[Ash]

They never released his death.

[Elena]

That's really sad.

[Ash]

It's a really sad, sad, sad situation from beginning to end.

[Elena]

It just shows how dangerous it can be to.

[Ash]

I hope everyone has been able to move forward from it in some way, shape or form and there's been some growth somewhere.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And I hope those kids have been able to move forward from it because like, like, that's when I think it was one. I think it was Donna or Deborah. One of them said that, like, they have no happy memories from childhood. How could they think of it? And I'm like, that is, is horrible.

[Elena]

That's so, so sad.

[Ash]

Like how. And Donna loses the love somebody she's in love with her soon to be husband and then had to be around that man again.

[Elena]

And Glennie lost his adult life because obviously, again, he made a poor decision.

[Ash]

He had no childhood and then lost his whole life after. Like, there's just no winners in this situation.

[Elena]

And he was just, he was trying to protect his mom.

[Ash]

Well, that's what breaks my heart is like, again, I don't think I have to keep saying it. No, we're not condoning murder or contracting in any way, shape or form. But like, you just see the desperation in that kid, especially the way he acted afterwards where one, he tried to stop.

[Elena]

Trying to stop it all.

[Ash]

And two, he went right to his mom and was like, I did something bad. And like, I, I want to stop this.

[Elena]

It's like how desperate she was to not do anything to stop it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That is a really sad case. Dude. Dude.

[Ash]

Yeah. Bummed me out in like a way I can't describe.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It's just I need to do something different for my next one.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because like, this really bummed me out.

[Elena]

We have listener tales coming up, so there you go.

[Ash]

You guys will soothe. You'll be like bomb on my soul.

[Elena]

Yeah. Yeah, it'll be good. Oh, man.

[Ash]

And Nicholas will be. Will be on our next listener.

[Elena]

Tell soothing to my soul.

[Ash]

Maybe he'll be in a better mood.

[Elena]

He better be. He was really reading me for film.

[Ash]

Both. But he'll. He'll make me feel better.

[Elena]

Oh, man. Oh, man.

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

Go touch grass, everyone. Go tell grass. If you have a good parent, tell them how much you appreciate them for not being so terrible.

[Ash]

Yeah. And go like, if you have, if you are a parent or if you just like, love a child in your.

[Elena]

Life, go tell them that.

[Ash]

Go be awesome to them. Go be a safe place for them.

[Elena]

Gonna go donate to like, domestic violence causes.

[Ash]

And if you, you have parents that suck ass, I'm sorry.

[Elena]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Ash]

I'm sorry.

[Elena]

Like, mine didn't suck that bad.

[Ash]

That sucks.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And we're. I'm. I'm your parent.

[Elena]

But you know what?

[Ash]

Okay. If you're listening and your parents suck, I'm your parent.

[Elena]

Yes, you're one of the goobins, but you want my goobin. It's cool to know that you can break the cycle. I think that's a very empowering thing to lean on if you want to. No.

[Ash]

And it shouldn't. It's not easy. So. So it doesn't. If it doesn't feel easy, that's okay. Okay.

[Elena]

And it shouldn't be up to you, but sometimes it just works that way.

[Ash]

But people are going to people. People going to people. So there we go.

[Elena]

God damn. Well, we hope you keep listening.

[Ash]

We hope you do. We hope you.

[Elena]

And we hope you keep it weird. Just not so weird that, like, you abuse people you love. Keep your hands to yourself.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Stop hitting people. Don't get married if you don't like the person.

[Ash]

It's.

[Elena]

You know, we all have free will.

[Ash]

Don't do good with your free will. Gosh darn it.

[Elena]

God damn, Sam.

[Ash]

Foreign.

[Elena]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts prime. Members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[C]

Lamont Jones's world is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. Prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County Penns, a chilling true story of corruption and cover ups that begins as one man's search for answers but soon reveals a disturbing pattern. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never before heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County, Pennsylvania pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story. It's happening right now. Follow Death County Pa on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County PA early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.