Episode 688: The Last Call Killer (Part 2)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Morbid Episode 688: The Last Call Killer (Part 2)

Release Date: July 10, 2025
Host: Alayna and Ash | Morbid Network | Wondery

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Introduction

In the gripping second part of "The Last Call Killer," hosts Alayna and Ash delve deeper into the harrowing case of Richard Rogers, a nurse whose seemingly ordinary life concealed a string of brutal murders targeting gay men. This episode meticulously unpacks the investigation, community impact, forensic breakthroughs, and the eventual conviction of Rogers, painting a chilling portrait of a predator lurking in plain sight.

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Case Overview and Initial Investigations

The episode opens with Ash recapping part one, where four men—Peter Anderson, Thomas Mulcahy, Anthony Marrero, and Michael Sakura—were found dismembered in garbage bags across Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York City. All victims were last seen near piano bars in NYC, leading investigators to suspect a serial killer targeting the LGBTQ+ community.

Notable Quote:
Ash (03:12): "Peter Anderson, Thomas Mul, Anthony Marrero, and Michael Sakura were all gay men who had last been seen in or near piano bars in New York City."

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Community Response and Growing Concerns

As the bodies piled up, local LGBTQ+ activist groups, spearheaded by Matt Foreman of the Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project, mobilized to support the community and pressure law enforcement for action.

Notable Quote:
Ash (04:35): "Matt Foreman told a reporter for Newsday, 'It's a shame that we have to wait until there's a bona fide string of these instances before we can get any attention.'"

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Breakthrough in Forensic Science

Years later, advances in forensic technology provided a new avenue for solving the case. In 1999, the introduction of Vacuum Metal Deposition (VMD) allowed investigators to recover previously undetectable fingerprints from the crime scenes.

Notable Quote:
Ash (10:13): "And that leaves a clear, distinct print that can then be used as evidence."

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Richard Rogers: From Suspect to Conviction

The renewed investigation led to the identification of Richard Rogers, a nurse at Mount Sinai Hospital. Initially, Rogers was an unlikely suspect—well-liked, polite, and seemingly incapable of such heinous acts. However, forensic evidence, including fingerprints and palm prints, tied him directly to the murders.

Notable Quote:
Ash (12:12): "In 2001, he got a hit from the AFIS database in Maine. The prints match those collected from a suspect in a 1973 murder of a University of Maine student."

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The 1973 Murder and the Failed Defense

Rogers' past revealed a violent incident in 1973, where he stabbed his neighbor Fred Spencer, allegedly in self-defense. Despite substantial evidence, Rogers was acquitted, a decision later scrutinized for potential biases, including the possibility of a "gay panic" defense.

Notable Quote:
Alayna (26:17): "It's homophobia."

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Patterns of Violence and Additional Crimes

Further investigation unveiled a pattern of violence spanning decades. Rogers was linked to additional murders in Florida (1982) and Connecticut (1986), as well as an assault in 1988, where he drugged and assaulted Sandy Harrow with a date rape drug, Vercid.

Notable Quote:
Ash (34:48): "He woke up completely nude and was bound at his wrists and ankles with hospital ID bracelets."

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The Arrest and Initial Interrogation

In 2005, allegations against Rogers culminated in his arrest. During interrogation, Rogers remained eerily calm, denying involvement despite overwhelming evidence. His demeanor contrasted sharply with the brutality of his crimes.

Notable Quote:
Alayna (39:25): "We literally know for an absolute fact that you did this."

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The Trial: Overcoming Doubts and Securing a Conviction

Rogers' first trial in 2005 saw prosecutors present irrefutable evidence, including multiple fingerprints and eyewitness testimonies. Despite his earlier acquittal, Rogers was found guilty of multiple first-degree murders after a compelling prosecution dismantled his defense.

Notable Quote:
Ash (47:00): "It's the purpose of this sentence to do everything within my power to assure society you never walk free again and that you die in some hole in some prison without ever having freedom again."

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Sentencing and Aftermath

In January 2006, Rogers received two consecutive life sentences, ensuring he would remain incarcerated for the rest of his life. The judge's stern remarks underscored the severity of Rogers' actions and the justice served for his victims.

Notable Quote:
Ash (47:00): "And hopefully society will find some modicum of justice in that because there's nothing else that I can do."

---

Reflection on the Community and Unanswered Questions

Hosts Alayna and Ash reflect on the profound impact Rogers' crimes had on the LGBTQ+ community, emphasizing the vulnerability of individuals navigating their identity amidst societal prejudice. They also ponder the chilling reality of how someone perceived as "lovely" could harbor such darkness, highlighting the importance of vigilance and support within vulnerable communities.

Notable Quote:
Alayna (49:14): "He's a true monster. And the fact that I didn't ever know about this guy is so upsetting."

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Conclusion

"The Last Call Killer (Part 2)" serves as a poignant exploration of a serial killer's manipulation of trust and societal biases. Through meticulous research and empathetic storytelling, Alayna and Ash shed light on the intersection of forensic science, justice, and the enduring scars left on communities. The episode stands as a testament to the relentless pursuit of truth and the unwavering spirit of those seeking justice for the marginalized.

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Key Takeaways:

• Advancements in Forensic Science: The VMD technique was pivotal in breaking the decade-old cold case.
• Impact of Societal Biases: Potential use of the "gay panic" defense influenced the initial acquittal of Rogers.
• Community Mobilization: Activist groups played a crucial role in advocating for victims and pressuring law enforcement.
• Justice and Closure: The eventual conviction of Rogers provided a sense of closure, albeit delayed, for the victims' families and the community.

Final Thought:
This episode underscores the complexities of solving serial crimes, especially those intertwined with societal prejudices. It highlights the importance of technological advancements, community support, and persistent investigative efforts in bringing perpetrators to justice.

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For those intrigued by this case and seeking more nuanced discussions on true crime and history, "Morbid" continues to deliver in-depth, research-driven narratives with a touch of humor. Stay tuned for more episodes that unravel the darkest corners of human behavior.

Transcript

[Alayna]

Hey weirdos. Alayna here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

[Ash]

You're listening to a morbid network podcast. Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities and new ways of thinking. Listening can lead to positive changes in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall well being. Audible has an incredible selection of over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts and Audible originals all in one easy app. Find the genres you love and discover new ones, explore bestsellers, new releases, plus thousands of included audiobooks, podcasts and originals that members can listen to all they want with more added all the time. Right now I am listening to the Southern Book Club's Guide to Slaying Vampires by Grady Hendricks and I just cannot get enough of it. I never want to pause it. I'm literally like loading the dishwasher, listening to it on the treadmill, listening to it constantly. It's so awesome. I love being able to listen anytime, anywhere I want to. And there's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30 day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.commorbid.

[Lindsey Graham]

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[Alayna]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena.

[Ash]

I'm Ash.

[Alayna]

And this is morbid.

[Ash]

It's Morbid part two.

[Alayna]

And, boy, is it morbid.

[Ash]

Yeah, this is a very morbid case.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It's, like, deeply upsetting. Yeah. But I think a case that everybody should hear because.

[Alayna]

Wow. Because. Oh, boy. Yeah.

[Ash]

Lots. Lots to dive into here.

[Alayna]

Lots happening.

[Ash]

I guess. Since it's part two, do you want to just get right into it?

[Alayna]

Yeah, I think we should.

[Ash]

I think we bantered a lot in part one, so.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

All right. So in part one, speaking of, we went over very, very brutal discoveries of four men who had been dismembered and dumped in garbage bags at various locations between Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and new victims. Peter Anderson, Thomas Mul, Anthony Marrero, and Michael Sakura were all gay men who had last been seen in or near piano bars in New York City. And while investigators knew it was pretty likely that all of these men had been killed by the same person, they didn't have much as far as evidence or leads went. And a lot of these cases were going cold after just, like a couple months.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Of investigating. But investigators now, with another fourth body that was very clearly linked to the other three, needed to get to work.

[Alayna]

They're like, all right, we got to start connecting these.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like, we really gotta. Gotta get to it. Gotta get on it. So while they did that, reporters across the Tri State area started putting the pieces together of their own investigation. To anybody who was working a crime beat in the New York area. The details of the Michael Sakura murder sounded very familiar. And it occurred to more than a few journalists that there was probably a serial killer in the region targeting gay men. Within a few days, investigators responded to questions about that possibility, but it was clear that they were keeping things close to the chest at this point. All they would say was that they were looking for, quote, unquote, possible links between the cases. To which I would have said, I think there's about 45 babes.

[Alayna]

I think we found some. Yeah.

[Ash]

But in the absence of information from investigators, local LGBTQ plus activist groups stepped up to offer assistance and to educate the public about the serious problem of violence that was, you know, queer people were facing every single day.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Matt Foreman told a reporter for Newsday, it's a shame that we have to wait until there's a bona fide string of these infants before we can get any attention.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

As the executive director for the gay and Lesbian Anti Violence Project Matt Foreman was pretty well acquainted with the problem of anti gay violence across the country. And he himself even offered to help the police with questioning members of the gay community who were typically a bit hesitant to speak with law enforcement because of their past.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But within a week, within a week of the discovery of Michael Sakura's body, investigators were more forthcoming with information, but they still remained cautious. Rockland county district attorney Kenneth Gribitz said, we're not trying to cause panic, but we don't want to be living in a dream world. He did, though, confirm the similarities between the cases. He said they were undeniable and enough for the public to be concerned about.

[Alayna]

Okay.

[Ash]

For him, one of the most compelling details was that all the bodies were left in locations where they were almost sure to have been found quickly.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Even though they were concealed.

[Alayna]

That's what's interesting.

[Ash]

He said, if you dump something in a wooded area, there's a good chance it won't be discovered. But when you throw something in a trash can, there's a great possibility it will be.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

They all agreed, investigators, that it felt like the killer was challenging them to find him. Within days, the press dubbed the killer the, quote, last call killer, which was a reference to the fact that almost all of the victims had last been seen in gay bars around closing time. The name gave the press and local activist group something to latch on to and refer to as the threat of this killer continued to completely terrify the gay community.

[Alayna]

Yeah, understandably.

[Ash]

Yeah. In response, groups like the gay and lesbian anti violence Project projects spread out across the city, handing out flyers with tips on how to stay safe without, you know, sacrificing a social life.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

A lot of groups also banded together and offered a thirty thousand dollar reward for information leading to an arrest. But unfortunately, none of those leads ended up being productive.

[Alayna]

Damn.

[Ash]

But I do love seeing the community come together.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And really try to make a difference. While community activists hit the street on to protect their own law enforcement officials from New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania got together and formed their own t force to address this interstate killer. Using a description of the man seen with Michael Sakura at the Five Oaks, a sketch of the suspect was finally made now and circulated to all law enforcement officers in all three states. In New York, detective visited St. Vincent's Hospital working the most viable lead that they had because remember, someone had seen Michael at the bar and he had introduced him to whoever he was sitting with and said he's a nurse at St. Vincent's Yep. Unfortunately, after the sketch was Passed around to every staff member at the hospital. And even after key staff members were interviewed, none of them remembered seeing anybody who even slightly resembled the sketch.

[Alayna]

Damn.

[Ash]

It seemed that if the killer was a nurse, he definitely didn't work at St. Vincent's okay, so for months, the 18 officer task force just poured over the details and the evidence in the case, hoping that there might be some detail they missed that they would find and that would break the case. Yeah, by that time, the consensus was that they were looking for one man in all four homicides. But at the same time, this killer didn't seem to have a lot in common with the serial killers they were familiar with. Like Ted Bundy or the Hillside Stranglers. Those killers went out of their way to display their victims.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

New York police detective Ray Peer said there are some killers who kill once and could be sufficient for the rest of their lives. There are others who have a fantasy and who attack again and again to refuel that fantasy. As far as Pierce and the other task force members could tell, the man they were hunting definitely fell into that latter category. But as it would turn out, things were not so black and white. After a few months of pursuing leads, sending undercover officers into bars late at night, and interviewing hundreds and hundreds of potential witnesses, the Last Call Killer task force eventually hit a dead end. Leads and tips from the public started to dry up, and by the end of 1993, the task force disbanded. And strangely, after the murder of Michael Sakura, the murders simply and inexplicably stopped. It seemed now cold, Michael Sakura's case was shelved, along with Anderson Mulcahy and the Marrero cases, as investigators just moved on to more immediate cases. Detective Jack Repsha said it was always with the codicil that should something come up, we'll be here tomorrow. But it would be nearly a decade before anyone on the NYPD thought about the Last Call Killer again. But by then, forensic investigation had changed substantially. Although the investigations into all cases had been switched to inactive, they all remained open and were all assigned to detectives in their respective cities and counties who were keeping them in the back of their minds as these years passed, hoping to get a break. And that break finally came in the spring of 1999, when investigators in New Jersey learned about an advance in forensic science that would allow for the collection of once undetectable fingerprints through a process known as vacuum metal deposition vmd. In vmd, the technician dusts the surface with metallic powder and then follows that by a layer of zinc dust and then places the item in a vacuum chamber. The vacuum process causes the two metals to adhere to any fingerprints left on the surface, no matter how faint they are.

[Alayna]

Oh, that's cool.

[Ash]

And that leaves a clear, distinct print that can then be used as evidence.

[Alayna]

That is so fucking cool.

[Ash]

Isn't that really cool?

[Alayna]

That's really cool.

[Ash]

So detectives investigating the murder of Anthony Marrero knew that they had a large amount of physical evidence. But when it was tested so many years earlier, those tests hadn't come up with any viable prints. But that didn't mean they weren't there.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

By 1999, they hoped that maybe by using BMD, they could get a clear set of prints and then circulate those to other states for analysis.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And with over five years having gone by, they hoped their suspect might have possibly been picked up on some other criminal charge, which have required his fingerprints to be entered into some kind of state or federal database.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In a statement to the press, Detective Matthew Coon told the reporters, sure, it's a cold case, but we have a lot of new angles to play. We could get lucky. And we owe it to the victim's families to try.

[Alayna]

Hell, yeah.

[Ash]

Which, again, good detective work here. And I love the fact that they still stayed on top of this after so many years.

[Alayna]

Yeah. Truly.

[Ash]

Now, the problem detectives ran into was that at that point in New Jersey, none of their state or local technicians were experienced in the VMD process.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But they were still determined. It took a few more months, but in late 1999, investigators in Jersey found a team of crime scene technicians in Toronto, Canada, who had been using the VMD process for years. And the trash bags from the Marrero murder were hand delivered to those technicians to ensure a proper chain of custody.

[Alayna]

Good. Which, like, we've all seen that breakdown before.

[Ash]

It's so nice to see it go the right way.

[Alayna]

Yeah. That they're actually taking the precautions to make sure that they don't fuck up in some irreversible way.

[Ash]

And it seems like even extra precautions, you know? So when the bags were returned to New Jersey, the technicians in Toronto had managed to lift more than two dozen previously unseen fingerprints off the bags, as well as several clear palm prints. So the new prints were circulated to the surrounding states, but to investigators disappointment, they failed to match anything in local databases.

[Alayna]

Come on.

[Ash]

In the months that followed, Detective Kuhn continued submitting the prints to law enforcement agencies around the country. And finally, in 2001, he got a hit from the AFIS database in Maine. The prints match those collected from a suspect in a 1973 murder of a University of Maine student.

[Alayna]

Whoa.

[Ash]

So whoever this was had been a suspect in a murder previously.

[Alayna]

Holy.

[Ash]

According to the evidence, the man that Detective Kuhn and countless others had been hunting for a decade was Richard Rogers, a nurse who worked at Manhattan's Mount Sinai Hospital and lived on Staten Island. Oh, just like they thought they just had the wrong hospital. At first glance, nothing about Richard Rogers suggested that he could have been a serial killer. He was born in Plymouth, Massachusetts in June of 1950, and he was the first of five children born into a working class family. According to a cousin, he was, quote, normal. Normal as could be.

[Alayna]

That's horrifying. Yeah.

[Ash]

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[Richard Rogers]

Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondry's podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Events that have shaped who we are as a country and that continue to define the American experience. American Scandal tells Marquee stories about American politics, like the break in at the Watergate Hotel, an event that led to the downfall of a president and raised questions about the future of American democracy. We go behind the scenes looking at devastating financial crimes like the fraud committed at Enron and Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme. And we tell stories of complicated public figures like Edward Snowden and Monica Lewinsky, people who found themselves thrust into the spotlight and who spurred debates about the future of the country. Follow American Scandal. Wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app.

[Ash]

In general, Roger's life was pretty much the same as a lot of American boys in the 1950s. His dad took him fishing, taught him how to hunt, and, you know, just wanted him to develop. Develop a healthy appreciation for the outdoors. They had a close relationship. Things at home are cool, but things at school were not quite as ideal as a straight A student who was very neat, very tidy and gangly and awkward. He was usually the target of bullies and they would pick on him for things like his high pitched voice and his perceived girly nature.

[Alayna]

Stop picking on people.

[Ash]

Yeah, cut it out. Like, stop. Just. There's probably something annoying about you too. So just that's the thing.

[Alayna]

Like, I love people. Pick on people. And I'm like, like, yeah, you're not perfect either.

[Ash]

We're all.

[Alayna]

No one is. No, like, look in the goddamn mirror.

[Ash]

Seriously.

[Alayna]

And it's always the people who are the most. It sounds so cliche, but they're always the most miserable and the most insecure. Yeah. Anybody being mean to you anywhere in your life, they're so unhappy. And take that and feel good about it. Yeah.

[Ash]

They want to bring you down to their level. So don't let them take you there.

[Alayna]

No. Don't let them take your piece.

[Ash]

No, you're great. So Rogers didn't have a lot of friends, and according to Elon Green, he was, quote, teased mercilessly about everything from his voice to the way that he walked. Instead of the more typical after school activities for boys at the time, like boy Scouts and things like that. Richard's mother also took him to girl Scout meetings with his sisters, even though his father was like, hey, can we not do that? At a certain point, his father just gave up and, you know, wasn't really teaching him, quote unquote, masculine activities anymore. And he switched his attention to his oldest daughter who seemed to have an interest in hunting and really just left Richard on his own.

[Alayna]

I know, it's just like, come On.

[Ash]

Richard's life didn't improve much as he entered his teen years. In fact, it probably got worse. His supposedly feminine behaviors only became more pronounced. And although he was not openly gay at the time, he was tormented by his peers as though he was by his mid teens. The torment and the ridicule from his classmates become. Became way too much to bear. And one afternoon, he stabbed his neighbor with a kitchen knife.

[Alayna]

Wow.

[Ash]

Escalated quickly.

[Alayna]

Ah. Holy.

[Ash]

It's unclear what led to the stabbing of the young woman, and details are pretty much non existent, but the incident did get him placed in a psychiatric hospital for a period of time.

[Alayna]

Wow. As they should, huh?

[Ash]

Despite that, though, he still managed to graduate from high school on time. And in 1968, he enrolled at Florida Southern, which was a small Methodist college just outside of Tampa. His time at Florida Southern was pretty unremarkable. He graduated in 1972 with a BA in French. His peers and roommates, at least those who remembered him, said he was a quiet but polite young man. He really didn't make much of an impression. His sophomore year roommate, Donald. Donald Cubberley said that he was, quote, extremely introverted, very intelligent, but he would not talk unless you talk to him first.

[Alayna]

Okay.

[Ash]

Understandably, he continued to hide his sexuality while at Florida Southern because it definitely would have made him the target of the type of bullying that he went through in his younger years.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Or possibly worse.

[Alayna]

Yeah, I would say so.

[Ash]

Because don't Forget, in the 1960s, homosexuality was considered a mental illness by the American Psychiatric Association.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And homosexual activity was criminalized at this time.

[Alayna]

Cool.

[Ash]

Yeah. So you couldn't be out.

[Alayna]

Wow.

[Ash]

When he was younger, all he really would have to worry about was being ruthlessly bullied for being gay. But as an adult, he could have been placed in jail or placed in harm's way. Actually, during his time as an undergraduate, there was one student on the campus who was openly gay. And according to Elon Green, that student was, quote, reportedly moved into an off campus apartment by the administration for his own safety.

[Alayna]

Holy shit. Yeah. Where I would say, are we okay? But the answer is a resounding no.

[Ash]

No, because it's crazy.

[Alayna]

Resounding no.

[Ash]

History is like somewhat repeating itself.

[Alayna]

Yeah, it's. Again I say, I should even say someone.

[Ash]

History is repeating itself. On the afternoon of April 30, though, 1973, two bicyclists riding along a back road discovered the body of a young man laying at the edge of the woods about 10ft from the road. This boy was short, shirtless, covered in Blood. And wrapped in a large sheet of green canvas like you might use for a tent. Green.

[Alayna]

I was just, I. You couldn't see me, but I gave Ash a look that was like, yeah, green canvas.

[Ash]

Not, not green trash bags, but green, green canvas.

[Alayna]

Still, a strange coincidence.

[Ash]

Police found tire marks on the road near the body. And in the boy's pocket, they found a key to a post office box. So they took that to the post office and the key was identified as belonging to 22 year old graduate student Frederick Spencer. According to the to the medical examiner, Spencer had been killed by at least eight blows to the back of his head with a hammer.

[Alayna]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

Any of which the medical examiner said would have been fatal.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The murder came as a shock to the small community of Orono, Maine, where students and faculty of the university accounted for a significant portion of the only 9,000 or so residents. As far as anybody there knew, Fred Spencer was well liked. He was a hard working young man. He got along with pretty much everybody. He was a student at the College of Life Sciences and Agriculture, and he'd been actually recruited to the school, according to one advisor, based on his outstanding academic record and future promise as a research scientist.

[Alayna]

Wow.

[Ash]

So this kid had a bright future ahead of him. While the body was being moved to the nearest mortuary for autopsy, investigators went to the house that Fred shared with a couple of roommates and other grad students. And after being invited inside by one of Spencer's roommates and taking a quick look around, it was pretty obvious that they had found the scene of the murder. There were dark brown and red stains on the carpet on the stairs, and it looked like somebody had tried to clean them. With the roommate's permission, they continued to look around the house. Upstairs in the hallway, they found a spongy material on the floor, which they had also discovered wrapped in the canvas with Spencer's body. The material was scattered lightly on the floor in a trail that led to the bedroom of Richard Rogers. Oh, yep, in Roger's bedroom, they also discovered blood droplets on the walls, floor, and ceiling. They also found bloody fingerprints on the wall beside the door and in the bathroom on the floor. And it was in Roger's bedroom that they found their murder weapon, a standard claw hammer.

[Alayna]

And you're telling me he was just a suspect in this?

[Ash]

You'll see.

[Alayna]

Okay.

[Ash]

The evidence all pointed to Rogers, and he was picked up by police later that day. Now there's some conflict surrounding the nature of Richard and Fred's relationship. Most of Roger's classmates recalled that they were roommates and had a strained relationship. There was, like, always a kind of tension between them. But then other people said that they were very close and spent a lot of time together. So I don't know if maybe both of those things are true and they had some kind of falling out.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Or.

[Alayna]

And maybe they were close, spent a lot of time together, but there was always, like, an underlying tension. Yeah. You know?

[Ash]

But either way, investigators couldn't seem to identify any kind of motive for this killing. As far as they knew, neither Richard or Fred had a history of violence, and there was nothing in either of their past that would suggest something like this was possible. I don't think they knew about the psychiatric state.

[Alayna]

I was like. I was like, I'm sorry. Are we. Are we pretending that he didn't stab someone or.

[Ash]

They had not come across that.

[Alayna]

It seems. Okay. They should. They should look into that. They.

[Ash]

For sure.

[Alayna]

Before saying that they don't see a history of violence. Because.

[Ash]

Because that's a violent history.

[Alayna]

Because there's one. I see it.

[Ash]

Oh, found it.

[Alayna]

I got it.

[Ash]

There it is. Found it. It's like, where's Waldo? But history of violence.

[Alayna]

I'm so glad you saw my face. Being like. I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I was like, excuse me. Yeah.

[Ash]

So at the state police barracks, Richard was brought into an interview room, and it didn't take long for him to fully confess to this murder.

[Alayna]

Okay.

[Ash]

He claimed that the two had been in his bedroom when an argument broke out. And he said Fred came at him with the hammer. He claimed he wrestled the hammer away from Fred and in self defense, hit him on the head several times. After being hit with the hammer, Spencer was still struggling. Richard said, so he put a plastic bag over his head to, quote, knock him out. He said it was simply a matter of self defense in what he thought was a fight for his life. Investigating officers were pretty skeptical of this because self defense doesn't often include asphyxiation.

[Alayna]

Yeah. And aren't all the hammer hits to the back of the head? Mm. That's also a little.

[Ash]

It's also a little telling, a little sus. I would say they had found their killer. So now it was up to a judge and jury to determine whether or not he was telling the truth.

[Alayna]

Why the fuck is this guy out and doing it again?

[Ash]

Because society's fucking gross, that's why.

[Alayna]

This is horrifying. Yeah.

[Ash]

It gets worse.

[Alayna]

Oh.

[Ash]

Richard's attorney, Errol Payne, had hoped to avoid a trial at all. And even the judge actually tried to arrange for a plea agreement with the prosecutor. Prosecutor foed Saleem, but Richard refused to accept a plea deal and seemed eager to prove himself in court.

[Alayna]

Oh, boy.

[Ash]

The trial started on October 29, 1973, in banger superiority superior court. Over the course of several days, Saleem called several character witnesses to testify as to Fred's easygoing nature and strong moral character. He also had the medical examiner go into great detail about the extent of Spencer's injuries case. The prosecutor acknowledged, sure, it was possible that Roger was telling the truth about the initial self defense claim, but if it was purely a matter of self defense, why had Richard put a bag over the victim's head after he'd been subdued? Yeah, and also why had he gone to such great lengths to get rid of the body, clean the crime scene and all of that, rather than report the attack to police right away?

[Alayna]

Exactly.

[Ash]

The prosecution made a compelling argument for murder and expected an equally strong. A strong response and defense from Payne. But when the time came for the defense to present their case, Payne didn't have any follow up questions for any of the prosecution's witnesses. And he really didn't even call many of his own witnesses. Actually, just a few days into the trial, he made a motion to reduce the charges from murder to manslaughter, Arguing that the state's evidence didn't support a murder charge. And the judge agreed.

[Alayna]

What?

[Ash]

He said it was clear Rogers had been provoked and that, quote, the jury could not find that the actions of the defendant exceeded the crime of manslaughter. I'll have an explanation for you shortly.

[Alayna]

I will. You. I will. Like, what the.

[Ash]

It's homophobia.

[Alayna]

Oh. Because I'm like, what?

[Ash]

We'll get there.

[Alayna]

What?

[Ash]

We will get there.

[Alayna]

This man hit another man on the head. Back of the head. Eight times. All of which. Any of which, according to the medical examiner, could have. It was the fatal blow. And then asphyxiated him with a bag and dumped his body in a wooded area.

[Ash]

Yeah, after. And tried to clean up and tried.

[Alayna]

To clean everything up. And we're claiming that is not sufficient enough evidence. They're literally being like, well, now, girly, he provoked him.

[Ash]

Now, girly, it's manslaughter.

[Alayna]

Whoa.

[Ash]

Just wait. So at the opening of the trial, Selim was confident that he could get a conviction based on the evidence alone, which Elena just laid out for us again. But within less than a week, that confidence was undermined when things got even less certain because Rogers took the stand to testify on his own behalf. Despite the very Serious charges. He was remarkably calm, collected, and even persuasive. His lawyer argued that the bludgeoning of Fred Spencer had been committed, quote, in passion, under sudden provocation. And any reasonable man would have reacted the same way. Any reasonable man would have climbed on top of him, hit him in the back of the head 18 times, and then strangled him with a plastic bag over his head.

[Alayna]

Wow.

[Ash]

It's just reasonable.

[Alayna]

Yeah. That's just man things, you know? Yeah.

[Ash]

Facts. Richard confirmed this and said, I didn't know what to do. I wanted very much to go to the police, but by then I felt it would look very suspicious.

[Alayna]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

So instead, he wrapped the body in a tent and dumped it in the woods.

[Alayna]

Yeah. Which. Which, like. Yeah, you're right. That doesn't look suspicious. Not at all. No.

[Ash]

On November 2, 1973, the jury deliberated for just under three hours before emerging to acquit Richard Rogers of the charges that were put against him.

[Alayna]

Shame. Shame, shame.

[Ash]

After the verdict on all of you.

[Alayna]

Shame.

[Ash]

After the verdict was read, he told a reporter, I just had no idea how this was going to turn out. I mean, I'm not guilty, but I am really thankful. And as the jury filed out of the courthouse, he yelled after them, saying, thank you very much. I assure you, you did the right thing.

[Alayna]

Wow. Yeah. I'm simply without a thought.

[Ash]

You're not alone. Because under the circumstances, and given not only the evidence, but his own fucking confession to murder, his acquittal came as a surprise to pretty much everyone close to this case.

[Alayna]

Wow.

[Ash]

But author Elon Green pointed out none of the newspaper coverage suggests Payne used a gay panic defense. But at least one Spectator remembers something to that effect. In fact, decades later, many residents who were alive at the time did recall that there was some kind of quote, unquote, gay angle to the story. Assuming that that's true, his acquittal does make a lot more sense. Because in 1973 Maine, it was entirely likely that even the implication that Frederick Spencer made some kind of pass at Rogers would have been viewed as a justifiable defense of Rogers actions. Gay panic.

[Alayna]

Wow. Mm. Wow. Just, like, is gross. And it's when you really, like, dive into that, that, like, it's just, like, panic.

[Ash]

Insane.

[Alayna]

One man making a pet. Which I'm not saying happened here. I'm just saying, like, the whole idea of it, one man making a pass at another man is justifiable enough for them to say, yeah, you can hit him on the head eight times with a hammer and then asphyxiate him. And dump his body in the woods.

[Ash]

Do you know how many times?

[Alayna]

But then men who hit on women.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Alayna]

And end up.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Alayna]

Like, totally. Like, sexually assaulting them, making them feel uncomfortable, making them feel in danger. If you were to touch that guy, you'd have, like, an assault charge.

[Ash]

Yep. It happens to women all the time.

[Alayna]

It's totally fine in that sense. But it. But if you're. If you're implying that I'm gay, like, that logic doesn't register. It's like, how does that make sense to anyone?

[Ash]

It doesn't make any sense.

[Alayna]

Yeah, it can't. It can't make sense.

[Ash]

It only makes sense to homophobes.

[Alayna]

Like, that's wild.

[Ash]

So he got away with murder and.

[Alayna]

Was able to do all that he did.

[Ash]

Whatever the case may have been, he was a free man. And after completing his graduate studies at the University of Maine, I was like, you stayed. Everyone just, like, hung out with you after that. What the. But after that, he moved to New York, and he started taking nursing courses at Pace University, which is also just another dichotomy.

[Alayna]

And then he's just becoming a nurse.

[Ash]

He's a nurse.

[Alayna]

What?

[Ash]

He completed his program in 1979, and that's when he took the job at Mount Sinai Hospital, where he was employed until his arrest in the early 2000s. Which is crazy. Discovering that Rogers had at least one murder in his past put their suspect in a new light. The fingerprints confirmed that, if nothing else, he had been involved in the dismemberment and the disposal of at least Anthony Marrero. Yeah, but when they compared the prints from Toronto to the Prince, in every other case, they were a match.

[Alayna]

Oh.

[Ash]

Yep. Now, the more investigators dug into Richard's past, the more confident they were that he was 100%. Even without the. The fingerprint evidence. Definitely the last call killer.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

When they spoke to one of his ex boyfriends, a British man who he had dated briefly in 1996, investigators learned of an incident where the two were out to dinner one night, and Richard suddenly turned to the man and said, you should really be careful who you. Who you're with, because the police are out there looking for a serial killer.

[Alayna]

Oh.

[Ash]

At the time, the ex thought it was just a joke, and a joke in poor taste at that.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But in retrospect, he said, the comment took on an entirely different and very macabre. He said, toward the end, I realized something wasn't quite right.

[Alayna]

Damn.

[Ash]

It would have been unusual for Rogers, or really any serial killer, for that matter. To commit one murder and then stop for two decades, only to just start again. But when they learned more about who he was and his past, the more investigators questioned whether he actually had stopped committing acts of violence. On a trip to Florida to Visit family in 1982, a man named Matthew Piero disappeared from a Daytona beach gay bar after last call, and his body was found a few days later along Interstate 4. He'd been suffocated and stabbed six times in the chest and back. A few days after that, Richard returned to New York after having visited family in Florida in that time frame.

[Alayna]

Holy.

[Ash]

Then, in 1986, the remains of a man named Jack Andrews were discovered in multiple garbage bags at a rest stop in Litchfield, Connecticut, just a few hours outside of New York city. He was 100 suspected in both of those deaths, but unfortunately, there was never enough evidence to officially connect him to those murders.

[Alayna]

Wow.

[Ash]

But there were other crimes they could connect him to, like the 1988 assault on a man named Sandy Harrow. According to Harrow, he had met Richard in the. In early July at the GH Club, which is a gay bar in Manhattan. Sandy noticed Richard standing against the wall of the bar and looking for a place to sit. So Sandy made some room for him, and they got to chatting around 8pm Richard suggested they go back to his apartment, and Harrow said he seemed nice enough, so he agreed. Back at Roger's apartment, Richard immediately disappeared into the kitchen and returned with a drink for Sandy, which Sandy remembered being orange juice or something like that. He said, I was drinking the orange juice. I didn't taste anything strange, but I remember passing out, and as I fell forward, there was a very dark blue rug on the floor. It reminded me of that movie Fresh.

[Alayna]

Yes. Yeah. Oh, it really does.

[Ash]

He said when he woke up later, hours later, he had been stripped nude, and his wrists and ankles were bound with hospital ID bracelets. I need you guys just to sit with that for a second.

[Alayna]

Yeah, fully.

[Ash]

He woke up completely nude and was bound at his wrists and ankles with hospital ID bracelets.

[Alayna]

Ugh, I hate it.

[Ash]

He started to scream, and at that point, Rogers came over and injected him with a needle. So he lost consciousness for a second time and then woke up again a few hours later. Rogers had him dressed and left him outside on the sidewalk a few blocks away.

[Alayna]

What the.

[Ash]

Sandy called his friend, who picked him up and took him to the hospital. He was treated at Roosevelt Hospital, where they conducted a rape exam and found no evidence of sexual assault.

[Alayna]

He's got, like, Jeffrey Dahmer vibes.

[Ash]

He does. He very much does. Sandy obviously reported the assault to the police, and Rogers was arrested and charged with kidnapping and assault. But he ra. He waived his right to a jury trial and instead chose a bench trial where for some reason, he was acquitted and allowed to go free.

[Alayna]

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Ash]

I'm not.

[Alayna]

They just kept letting this. They were like, yeah, please do more. Yeah, go ahead, escalate. Yep, escalate more.

[Ash]

Escalate more.

[Alayna]

What the.

[Ash]

Just go ahead.

[Alayna]

And shame on all these people, truly. That let him out several times.

[Ash]

So in just a matter of a few weeks, investigators had gone from a fingerprint, A fingerprint match in one of the last call cases to establishing a bureau and very violent history for their suspect. Detective Coon and investigators from other agencies conferred, and it was decided that the two New Jersey cases, the. Because they had both been found in New Jersey, Thomas Mulcahy and Anthony Marrero were the strongest in terms of physical evidence and eyewitness testimony from staff and patrons at the Townhouse Bar. So the prosecutor planned to charge Richard Rogers with both of those murders.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

On May 28th, detectives from NYPD's Major Case Squad started monitoring Richard Rogers and shadowing him as he traveled to and from work and just other random places. To everybody involved, this made the most sense. He lived in New York, and even though they didn't have crime scenes there, they knew that Thomas Mulcahy and Anthony Marrero had been picked up in Manhattan. So that part of the case went to the nypd. And following Rogers, they hoped that he might lead them to a new location, maybe where the crimes had taken place or that they might find additional evidence. But in the two days that they surveilled him, he kind of just traveled to and from mundane locations.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So finally, on May 28, the Police Commissioner at the time, Bernard Kirk, gave. Or Carrick. Excuse me, gave the order to arrest Richard Rogers for the murders of Thomas Mulcahy and Anthony Marrero. Not wanting to tip him off, detectives from the Major. From Major Case visited him at Mount Sinai that afternoon and told him they had evidence that he had been a victim of credit card fraud.

[Alayna]

Oh, my goodness.

[Ash]

And they just needed his assistance in catching this horrible individual.

[Alayna]

We need you.

[Ash]

So he said, of course. I will go with you to One Police Plaza. And they sat down there in an interrogation room where they revealed that they were, in fact, actually investigating the murders of Thomas Mulcahy and Anthony Marrero and that Rogers was their prime suspect, despite what they knew about his past. They, the detectives still found it hard to believe that the man who was sitting in front of them in this interview room had brutally killed and dismembered at least five people.

[Alayna]

Because you just can't picture anyone doing that. Like, even if you know that about this man, you know, he's very capable of it, clearly.

[Ash]

But unlike a lot of the other violent criminals that they had been used to dealing with throughout the years, he was quiet, he was polite with them, and he seemed timid to them. He was cooperative, even to the extent that he signed all the forms indicating he understood his rights. But he wasn't very forthcoming with useful information. When New York detectives asked why he thought they were eager to speak with him about the homicides, he didn't show any signs of anxiety or distress and suggested it was maybe because of that 1988 assault with Sandy or maybe because of the death of Fred Spencer in 1973.

[Alayna]

Oh, the death.

[Ash]

I think you mean murder.

[Alayna]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

But they showed him pictures of the victims and asked him to identify his or to verify his whereabouts when the murders were committed. And he seemed somewhat compliant, but told them that, quote, other than recognizing Mr. Sakara, I don't know if I can help you with anything else. So the conversation went back and forth for a few more minutes before detectives informed him of the real reason they picked him up. They said, we have indisputable evidence, both physical and circumstantial, that links you to all four of these homicides.

[Alayna]

We literally know for an absolute fact that you did this.

[Ash]

Yeah, like your palm prints and fingerprints. Fingerprints are literally all over everything. As soon as he heard that, he sat straight up in his chair. And two investigators finally appeared to become guarded.

[Alayna]

Oh.

[Ash]

Two detectives started walking through the details of each murder and gave their theories as to how things happened and how Rogers might be involved. And he listened, but he didn't say anything, just nodded to show that he was listening. The interrogation went on for several hours. They went over graphic details of all the death deaths, all the dismemberments, hoping that he would just give up and confess. But by 12:30 that morning, everyone was exhausted, and he invoked his right to counsel. So the interview had to come to an end. Yeah, as soon as the courts opened up the next day in Ocean County, New Jersey, he was charged with first the first degree murders of Thomas Mulcahy and Anthony Marrero. But he refused to waive his right to extradition. So he was transferred to Rikers island and held on $1 million bail in the meantime, detectives in New York had received a warrant to search his apartment, where they found, among other things, carpet fibers consistent with those discovered on Anthony Marrero's body, heavy duty garbage bags like those found at all four crime scenes, and a bottle of Vercid, which is a benzodiazepine commonly used in minor surgical procedures.

[Alayna]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

But also known as a date rape drug.

[Alayna]

Damn.

[Ash]

Well, sir, this. This just sent me. While searching through one of the drawers in his bedroom, they also found a series of Polaroid photographs that looked like they were taken from his bedroom window. And they were photos of shirtless construction workers who were, like, working on the road outside his apartment. And on each of the photos, he had drawn on what seemed to detectives to be stab wounds on the torsos of the men in the picture.

[Alayna]

What the. Yeah. Yeah. What a sick fucking puppy this man is.

[Ash]

But the craziest thing was the news of his arrest came as an absolute shock to his friends and neighbors. They all flatly rejected the idea that he could ever be responsible for killing anyone. One neighbor told a reporter from the New York Times, he's a lovely fellow who likes antiques and everything that has to do with money. And another said, richie would never kill anyone. God, no.

[Alayna]

Do we know anyone ever?

[Ash]

No.

[Alayna]

Do we ever know anyone?

[Ash]

No. No, no, no, no.

[Alayna]

Think about this man who you think is lovely.

[Ash]

Your great, awesome neighbor.

[Alayna]

Your great, awesome neighbor who you talk to about antiques, taking pictures of construction workers and drawing stab wounds on them.

[Ash]

And also kidnapping men, like, possibly drugging them even.

[Alayna]

That, though it's like something is a. Not like you don't even know that. Yeah. You just don't even. Him. Like that. It. That's. Yeah. Like you don't know.

[Ash]

People think about the amount of conversations that neighbor probably had with him. Just friendly hanging out, normal, cordial conversations.

[Alayna]

I'm so upset by that.

[Ash]

And also, like, he could have dismembered somebody next door.

[Alayna]

Yeah. What? Absolutely. And you had no idea.

[Ash]

You had no idea.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

They also all described him as a kind, generous person who went out of his way to help others.

[Alayna]

Wow.

[Ash]

One person even said he was really the kind of guy you could trust with your ATM card.

[Alayna]

I. I'm telling you, you can't. You.

[Ash]

You definitely can't. But the fact that, like, people felt that way before they knew what had happened. But the more news that came out in the days that followed, it became harder to insist that the police had made some kind of mistake.

[Alayna]

Wow.

[Ash]

It ended up taking several years, just with different delays and everything before he went to trial for the murders of Thomas Mulcahy and Anthony Marrera. And in that time, they did offer him a deal. The deal was that he would plead guilty to two counts of manslaughter. This guy is lucky. A lucky duck.

[Alayna]

A lucky duck.

[Ash]

Two counts of man's manslaughter. And in exchange, he would receive two 30 year sentences with the possibility of parole after 15 years.

[Alayna]

I'm just like, confused how we're just like not being like, he's, he murdered people, so let's charge him with murder.

[Ash]

I'm also like, you have a shit ton of evidence.

[Alayna]

You have the evidence here. We're not claiming that these are all self defense sense. Like, let's be so for real.

[Ash]

I don't know if it was just because at that point, DNA evidence was so new that they maybe thought the jury would have a hard time understanding it or maybe or what.

[Alayna]

Very big possibility.

[Ash]

But they gave him a solid deal. Offered him a solid deal. And considering the fact that he was facing at least two life sentences and that the case against him, like I just said, was pretty strong, the deal was a good one. But it wasn't good enough for him. He declined the offer.

[Alayna]

What a idiot.

[Ash]

Yeah, but remember, that's not the first time he's done that.

[Alayna]

Damn.

[Ash]

On October 26, 2005, which is crazy, 2005, he went on trial.

[Alayna]

Wild.

[Ash]

Yeah, he went on trial at the Ocean County Municipal Court in Toms River, New Jersey. In his opening statement, Prosecuting attorney William Heisler laid out the case for the jury. In the case of the Mulcahy murder, they had 16 fingerprints from nine different fingers. And in the Marrero case, they had two fingerprints and a palm print on the bag where Marrero's head had been discovered. They also had a mountain of physical evidence, like the carpet fibers and testimony from various witnesses, like the bartenders at the Five Oaks and the Townhouse Bar who had seen Rogers with the victims on the nights they were murdered. Unlike the last time he had been in court facing a murder charge, he didn't testify on his own behalf this time. In fact, he. He really didn't react at all. As the prosecution methodically walked the jury through all the evidence against him. This time, there wasn't much the defense could do but try to inspire some amount of doubt in the jury's minds. They argued that investigators didn't have any crime scene for any of the murders and that there wasn't any murder weapon.

[Alayna]

Oh, then it didn't happen.

[Ash]

I'm like, okay, but his fingerprints are on the bags.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And they said, well, it's possible his fingerprints got on the bag in some other way. And simply touching a bag doesn't make you guilty of murder.

[Alayna]

I mean, touching a bag that has a dead body in it makes you a suspect at the very least.

[Ash]

And touching two bags that have two separate dead body, that makes you even.

[Alayna]

More of a suspect. Yeah.

[Ash]

Makes you.

[Alayna]

Because, like, what.

[Ash]

What are the odds?

[Alayna]

What a bad. What? You. You had some bad luck.

[Ash]

You're just so hard if you're touching.

[Alayna]

Multiple bags that happen to end up having multiple murder victims inside.

[Ash]

Like, babe, that's not reasonable doubt.

[Alayna]

Like, are we really. Like, let's go ahead and sit down, everybody, and let's critically heal together the odds of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

I was never great at probability, but I feel like I.

[Alayna]

That one I feel like we could really knock out of the park. Yeah.

[Ash]

Well, in the end, the defense put forth by Roger's lawyers was unconvincing at best.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

After two weeks of very graphic, very heartbreaking testimony, the jury only deliberated for a few hours and returned to the courtroom to find Richard Rogers guilty on every single charge.

[Alayna]

That guy.

[Ash]

When the verdict was read aloud in the court, he did not show any emotion and did not say anything because.

[Alayna]

He'S a piece of truly.

[Ash]

In late January of 2006, Richard Rogers was back in the packed Toms river courtroom, where he stood before the judge silently as family, family members and friends read their victim impact statements for the court. Tracy Mulcahy, Thomas's daughter, said, he did it because he could and because he wanted to. He destroyed the anchor of our family and many of the dreams that we had for the future, which is awful.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

My heart goes out to them.

[Alayna]

Them.

[Ash]

Once all the victim impact statements were read, the judge sentenced Rogers to two full life terms to be served consecutively. Good. He told Rogers to do less would diminish the horror of offenses you've committed, sir.

[Alayna]

Yes.

[Ash]

It's the purpose of this sentence to do everything within my power to assure society you never walk free again and that you die in some hole in some prison without ever having freedom again. And hopefully society will find some modicum of justice in that because there's nothing else that I can do.

[Alayna]

You what A banger of a judge statement.

[Ash]

And then he dropped his gavel because.

[Alayna]

That'S the fact that he said. And that you die in some hole in prison.

[Ash]

Prison. He said, I don't even give a where.

[Alayna]

He said, I don't Give a. I just want you to rot. Yeah. And it's like the. The only thing I want is that society never has to deal with you again. It's like that there are some people, and he is one of them.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Alayna]

That should never see the light of day again.

[Ash]

Absolutely not.

[Alayna]

Like, he's proven his entire life that he would do this forever. Oh, and he's a brutal. If he gets out. I mean, that. The fact that he got off in.

[Ash]

That first one, you would think he.

[Alayna]

Would shut the fuck up and just live his life and be like, wow, I really. Yeah. I really got out of that.

[Ash]

But he's a fucking animal.

[Alayna]

But he kept going. Yeah.

[Ash]

He's deranged.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So he was removed from the courtroom after that and transported to New Jersey State Prison to begin serving his life sentence, which I think is hilarious, because he never wanted to be extradited there in the first place.

[Alayna]

Is. And now.

[Ash]

Yes. So much fun in New Jersey. In 2008, he appealed his conviction to the Superior Court of New Jersey, who essentially said, you good. They upheld the lower court's decision.

[Alayna]

They were like, y'. All.

[Ash]

He appealed again in 2014, but was again denied by the court, and still to this day, rots in some hole in some prison and hopefully will die there soon. Not too soon, though. Wanted to rot for a long time.

[Alayna]

Holy shit. Yeah.

[Ash]

It's a really, really devastating case. And you just think, like, all these men were trying to figure out their sexuality, trying to figure out their lives, family. Yeah.

[Alayna]

That's the thing.

[Ash]

Like, some of them were married, some had kids, some were living comfortably and finally had, you know, like, gotten cool with who they were. And he just took them away from everybody that loved them and took some of them in their darkest hours.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Which is awful. Holy shit.

[Alayna]

He's a true monster. And the fact that I didn't ever know about this guy is so upsetting.

[Ash]

It's crazy. And the fact that, like, I know he said it before, but it's just like, you can't. You can't get it together in your mind that he assaulted somebody so brutally killed somebody years before, like, 10 years before that, and got away with it and possibly killed even more people, but unfortunately, there just wasn't enough evidence there. But I'm certain he most likely killed those.

[Alayna]

Oh, I wouldn't be shocked at all, you know? Yeah.

[Ash]

And it's like, how many more people that did he kill that just didn't.

[Alayna]

They just didn't connect.

[Ash]

Connect, Right.

[Alayna]

Wow. Yeah.

[Ash]

I really hope he's rotting in some prison.

[Alayna]

What a brutal, brutal case. And so sad.

[Ash]

It was really sad.

[Alayna]

But I'm so glad he was caught.

[Ash]

Me too.

[Alayna]

Holy.

[Ash]

So I think we'll do something like maybe spooky after this.

[Alayna]

Yeah. Just give just for a moment.

[Ash]

Yeah. Maybe like a guest app. A cool guest app or a spooky.

[Alayna]

Yeah, we'll see. We'll see.

[Ash]

And in the meantime, we hope that.

[Alayna]

You keep listening and we hope you.

[Ash]

Keep it weird but not so weird that you think you can just go around doing whatever the you want to do in ending lives.

[Alayna]

Yeah. Don't be a hateful no. Said it again.

[Ash]

Don't do it.

[Alayna]

Sam Sa Foreign.

[Ash]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.