Glennon Engleman: The Killer Dentist

Summary

Morbid Podcast: Glennon Engleman—The Killer Dentist

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Episode Date: April 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this chilling yet characteristically irreverent episode, Ash and Alaina dive into the life and crimes of Dr. Glennon Engleman, a St. Louis dentist whose respectable façade masked a series of calculated, brutal murders motivated by greed and a twisted enjoyment of killing. Tracing Engleman's crimes from the 1950s through the late 1970s, the hosts unravel a tangled web of murder-for-profit schemes in collaboration with lovers and acquaintances—proving once again that sometimes the most terrifying monsters wear the most ordinary disguises.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Murder of James Bullock (08:09–18:22)

• The first known victim:
  • On December 17, 1958, James Bullock, a promising young man with a tragic past, was murdered in St. Louis. Witnesses described a brutal scene: gunshots, shotgun wounds, and his legs run over by a car.
  • Ash: “Talk about overkill. This poor man.” (11:05)
• Investigation hurdles:
  • Initial witness confusion, a spooked driver confessing to accidentally running over Bullock’s legs.
  • Detectives quickly ruled out robbery as a motive—James’s wallet and wedding ring were left untouched.

2. Unraveling Personal Connections (15:42–18:22)

• Ruth’s tangled relationships:
  • Ruth, James’s wife, quickly becomes a person of interest when it’s revealed her ex-husband is Dr. Glenn Engelman.
  • Ash: “She continued to see him regularly… he cleaned her teeth, sometimes gave her money, and they occasionally slept together.” (17:12)
• Ruth’s polygraph:
  • Ruth seemingly passes a polygraph, walking free for the moment.

3. The Investigation Stalls—And Suspicions Grow (22:08–27:25)

• Interviewing Engelman:
  • Engelman refuses to talk and invokes his right not to incriminate himself.
  • Alaina (sarcastically): “Wow, that’s not guilty talk at all.” (22:52)
• False Confessions:
  • Two ex-convicts, Murphy and Deckard, claim Engelman and Ruth orchestrated the murder, but their unreliable testimonies unravel in days.
  • Ruth collects James’s life insurance; Engelman moves on with his dental practice.

4. A Pattern Emerges—Mysterious Deaths for Money (27:29–38:42)

• Engelman’s second marriage: Ends in violence and divorce; ex-wife Edna claims he tried to kill her with barbiturates.
• New murders with familiar MOs:
  • 1976: Peter Helm, shot by a sniper in the woods—married to Carmen, who’d worked for Engelman and was his close friend’s sister.
  • Carmen receives a $60k insurance payout.
• 1977: Double homicide of Arthur and Vernita Goosel—alleged robbery, but valuables left untouched and no forced entry.

5. Escalation—Murder Comes Home (38:04–43:06)

• Ronald Goosel's death:
  • Son of Arthur and Vernita, killed in 1979. Original theory of mistaken Mafia targeting falls apart as patterns surface.
  • Ronald’s wife, Barbara, had also known Glenn Engelman for 20 years.
• Failed police connections:
  • Investigators repeatedly fail to link these deaths to Engelman due to scattered jurisdictions and lack of communication.

6. The Car Bombing—Final Straw (44:06–48:53)

• Sophie Barrera’s murder (1980):
  • Her car explodes outside her dental lab, shortly before she’s due in court to collect a debt from Engelman.
  • Evidence of fear—Sophie had reported a previous dynamite attempt on her home.
  • Engelman naturally becomes a suspect.

7. The Break—A Wife Turns Informant (48:53–50:13)

• Ruth Jolly (Engelman’s then-wife) goes to police:
  • Fearing for her and her son's safety, she wears a wire.
  • Engelman incriminates himself on tape:
    • Engelman (recorded): “I’m $20,000 ahead. Fortuitous event with Barrera dying.” (49:21)
• Tapes implicate Engelman in multiple murders and tie in wives/assistants as co-conspirators, all motivated by life insurance payouts.

8. The Web: Motive, Method, and Money (52:01–54:05)

• Summary of schemes:
  • Engelman repeatedly colludes with women—ex-wives, assistants, lovers—who receive payouts and split the proceeds.
  • Notable outlier: Sophie Barrera, whom he killed to erase a substantial debt, not for insurance money.
• Prosecutions:
  • Engelman and accomplice Robert Handy indicted for Barrera and Peter Helm’s murder and multiple mail/wire fraud charges; others plea deals and partial convictions.

9. Conviction & Aftermath (54:05–56:24)

• Engelman’s trial, conviction, and death:
  • Received multiple life sentences and died in prison in 1999.
• Accomplices’ fate:
  • Some, like Barbara Boyle (Goosel’s daughter-in-law), served time and were later paroled.
• **Authorities never formally connected Engelman to some early murders (e.g., James Bullock) due to lack of hard evidence.

10. Psychological Motive—Not Just Greed (56:24–57:36)

• Engelman confessed to enjoying murder:
  • Reporter Bill Bryan:
    • Quote: “It always seemed to me that he got some pleasure out of the planning and carrying out of it.” (56:24)

11. Reflection and Tone

• Ash and Alaina express disbelief at both Engelman’s ease in recruiting accomplices and how few paid serious legal consequences.
• Alaina: “How do you find that many people that are like, on your level?” (57:02)
• Ash: “A crazy, complicated web.” (57:42)
• Ash on victims: “It’s just so sad how many young people... lost their lives.” (58:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Talk about overkill. This poor man.” — Ash, on James Bullock’s murder (11:05)
• “Imagine your new husband... your old husband cleaning your new husband’s teeth.” — Ash, on the bizarre post-divorce relationship between Ruth, Glenn Engelman, and James (17:32)
• “Fortuitous event with Barrera dying.” — Glenn Engelman, recorded by his wife, on profiting from Sophie Barrera’s murder (49:21)
• “He loved it, that guy. Such a dou—Douchebag. So gross.” — Alaina, reflecting on Engelman’s violent arrogance (58:21)
• “How do you find that many people that are like, on your level?” — Alaina, reflecting on the repeated recruitment of women for murder (57:02)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Background/Start of Crime: 08:09–18:22
• Engelman’s Connections & Motives: 18:22–27:25
• Pattern of Murders and Insurance Plots: 27:29–38:42
• Family Killings & Investigation Stalls: 38:04–43:06
• Sophie Barrera Car Bombing: 44:06–48:53
• Break in Case—Wire Recordings: 48:53–50:13
• Trial, Conviction, and Aftermath: 54:05–56:24

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Fun Fact Palette Cleanser (58:56–60:42)

To ease the tension from this grim tale, the hosts share a quirky legal tidbit:

• In Skamania County, Washington, it’s illegal (originally a felony, now a misdemeanor) to kill Bigfoot or any Sasquatch.
  • Alaina: “He’s just a big boy… just vibing. Let him live.” (60:33)
  • Ash: “All Bigfoot is trying to do is avoid your ass.” (60:16)

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Tone & Style

As always, Ash and Alaina balance dark subject matter with light, irreverent humor, quick banter, and bursts of genuine empathy for the victims. Their unique blend keeps the harrowing story engaging and accessible—without ever losing focus on the shocking human toll left by Glennon Engelman’s crimes.

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Summary

Dr. Glennon Engelman’s decades-long murder-for-profit spree is a chilling reminder that true evil can lurk behind any smile—even that of your friendly neighborhood dentist. Driven by greed and a psychopathic pleasure in killing, Engelman manipulated a succession of women into murdering their spouses for insurance payouts, orchestrating deaths across Missouri and Illinois with chilling calculation. In the end, it was the bravery of his own wife, Ruth Jolly, who risked everything to record his confessions, that finally brought him down. Their story is a stark web of betrayal, avarice, and violence—leavened by wry observations and utter disbelief from the Morbid hosts, who remind us all to be careful who we trust with both our teeth and our lives.

Transcript

[Ash]

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[Elena]

I'm Elena.

[Ash]

I'm Ash.

[Elena]

And this is morbid.

[Ash]

It's morbid. And we got big news for you, baby.

[Elena]

We do.

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[Ash]

We were part of it.

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We were included.

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They took all of our feedback.

[Elena]

It was crazy.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Really awesome.

[Ash]

We didn't have a lot of experiences like that.

[Elena]

Yeah. But no specifics. Just no, you know, in general. We just. We really collabed.

[Ash]

There's. There's clothes, obviously. Like, there's shirts, there's sweatshirts.

[Elena]

So comfy.

[Ash]

Phone cases that are really high quality.

[Elena]

Might I say I have one on my phone currently.

[Ash]

Yeah. I love that one. There's pillows. I love the pillows so much and everything. Like all the sweatshirts and the T shirts. One of the things that we told them, we said we need these to be very soft, please.

[Elena]

Yes, I want soft.

[Ash]

And they're so soft.

[Elena]

They are.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And if you are an international listener, lucky you. Lucky you.

[Elena]

We.

[Ash]

One, because we. We envy you. But two, because you can get our merch, too.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You just have to get it at a different store. It's podswag.com.

[Elena]

yeah.

[Ash]

P O-S-W-A-G. And it has all the same stuff.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So, yeah, we got new merch.

[Elena]

It's very exciting. And there'll be even more to come.

[Ash]

Yeah, there's more to come. We're working on a couple things.

[Elena]

Little.

[Ash]

Little drip.

[Elena]

Yeah, there you go.

[Ash]

Drip, drop. Drip, drop, raindrop, drop. Top morbid. Just release merch in their chop shop.

[Elena]

I like that a lot.

[Ash]

Thanks, Mikey.

[Elena]

On the ones and twos. Obsessed.

[Ash]

And then we're obviously still going to be at Radio city still on June 27th. They haven't gotten rid of us, so they haven't decided that they wanted to put, like, an actual professional up there.

[Elena]

They're still allowing us to come.

[Ash]

It's crazy. So get tickets to that. Get them on Ticketmaster, please, because that's the only place that we said yes. That pricing sounds good.

[Elena]

Yeah. Anywhere else, like, don't know.

[Ash]

And Debbie's gonna teach us a tap.

[Elena]

Hell, yeah.

[Ash]

We actually need to order tap shoes. Yeah.

[Elena]

And it's gonna be a lot of fun. It's one night only. Get your tickets.

[Ash]

Specialized merch.

[Elena]

This is it. Specialized merch for that night. It's going to be a lot of fun, too. We have a fun theme that we'll let you guys know about soon. And do it.

[Ash]

I ordered a dress from a. I won't say the site, but a sketchy site. And I just hoped for the best. Oh, no, I got it yesterday. And it has, you know, like the. Like. Like, we both had them on our wedding dress. Those, like, really pretty buttons. Yeah, it has those on the back and also the front. They weren't supposed to be on the front. I said, who is responsible for this and why did you send it to me?

[Elena]

The quality control was not there.

[Ash]

No. And the buttons are, like, not in a row. I was like, what the fuck?

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Yeah, so that'll be going.

[Elena]

You got like the Wish version. Yeah, I sure did.

[Ash]

I was like, the dress looked great online. Yeah. But I was like, I've never bought from here before.

[Elena]

Like, should I try it? You never will again.

[Ash]

I will not.

[Elena]

A.

[Ash]

Actually, it's a Place. You got something, though. That was great. So it must just be like a hit or miss. Luck of the draw.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah. Some places be like that sure too.

[Ash]

So now I have no idea what I'm wearing because the other dress from a completely different website that I ordered, which I also won't name, came with like a chemical stain on it. It literally, it was like tulle and there was just like a hole in the tool and it was like weirdly frayed on the edges. I was like, what? So I, I, I gotta find a reputable store.

[Elena]

Yeah, you do.

[Ash]

Anybody want a. Yeah, there you go. Gucci.

[Elena]

I'm looking at you. You're listening, right?

[Ash]

I have a couple sales associate friends.

[Elena]

There you go.

[Ash]

Party.

[Elena]

Let's go.

[Ash]

All right. Do you have anything you want to talk about?

[Elena]

You should pre order the Butcher Legacy.

[Ash]

It's coming up.

[Elena]

That's still coming out as well.

[Ash]

And it, that's, that's like the countdown is on.

[Elena]

Yeah, the countdown is on.

[Ash]

And pretty much the final countdown.

[Elena]

It'll be out August 11th. You can pre order on ButcherLegacy.com. you can get it anywhere you would like. Remember, if you pre order sometimes you

[Ash]

get it like a day early.

[Elena]

And like it's a, it's a pretty fun little thing to pre order because you get like some little perky perks that way. I saw people last time with the Butcher game. They're like, I got it a day early. See?

[Ash]

And that's fine.

[Elena]

I get it before everybody.

[Ash]

It's always fun to get things first.

[Elena]

It is. There's like a fancy special edition that you can get. There's. I don't know if there's signed copies left, but I'm trying my hardest to make sure I can sign as many as humanly possible.

[Ash]

And who knows, maybe she'll be at a place near you. And like when you.

[Elena]

That's the thing. I will be going to some places. I'll let you know when we lock all those down. But I will be signing stuff.

[Ash]

Hell yeah.

[Elena]

And trust me, I want to sign as many as I possibly can.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Much to the chagrin of anybody that's around me while I have to sign things.

[Ash]

Not me.

[Elena]

I don't care. I was going to say, cuz I think my husband's like, jesus, I just

[Ash]

open up the pages for you if I have to.

[Elena]

Yeah, there you go.

[Ash]

When we're out of place, I'm like, here you go. Sign there.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's, that's easy.

[Ash]

I got you. Yeah.

[Elena]

But yeah, so I'll try to sign as many as humanly possible before we

[Ash]

get into the show too. We met a couple of you guys in Salem and you were so nice. Shout out to Kathy and her super cool husband. They bought us coffee. They were amazing, which was so nice. And they were having like a little staycation in Salem. I hope you guys had the best time.

[Elena]

I loved them.

[Ash]

And then we met this squad of sisters.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Juliana. And all your sisters. Yes. Katrina.

[Elena]

Karina.

[Ash]

Karina.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

Sorry, I'm bad with names.

[Elena]

The baby. The baby we're talking about.

[Ash]

I will name the baby, but that might have been one of the cutest babies I've ever seen in my life.

[Elena]

And the cutest dog.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. Was the dog Cato?

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

I loved that dog.

[Elena]

Oh, you were.

[Ash]

You were all great. And they were just on a little sister trip. I thought that was so cute.

[Elena]

Yeah. And then there was a guy on a trolley who's taking a tour of Salem and he leaned out the window and said, ash and Elena.

[Ash]

So shout out to the guy.

[Elena]

So shout out to that guy. Because we didn't get to actually meet him. But we said, yeah. We said hey, going.

[Ash]

But the bus kept moving. All right, so that. I think that's everything.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

All right.

[Elena]

Hell yeah.

[Ash]

I'm going to be talking to you about a killer dentist today.

[Elena]

Let's go.

[Ash]

I don't think that's a sentence I've ever uttered before.

[Elena]

Definitely not.

[Ash]

This is the story of Glennon Engelman. Who I'd never heard of Glennon, but a Glennon. I know, I like that name. I'm just calling him Glenn for short.

[Elena]

Yeah. As you should.

[Ash]

You know what I mean?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Dave found this one and he said, do you want to do a story about a killer dentist? And we said, yes.

[Elena]

Hell yeah, Dave.

[Ash]

All right, so it's. It starts on the night of December 17th, 1958. So way back.

[Elena]

Oh, in the 50s.

[Ash]

In the 50s, honey. But rolls through time.

[Elena]

Oh, it pops off.

[Ash]

Yeah. So 27 year old James Bullock just left home. He was headed for a night class that he had at St. Louis University. I would love to do the whole St. Louis, St. Louis joke the whole way through, but I have to say it a lot of times and I did google it and apparently locals to St. Louis say it like that.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

They don't like when you say St. Louis.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So that's what I'm doing. If you happen to be a local in St. Louis that does. Like when people say St. Louis. I'm sorry, but you're not the majority. And I can only strive to make so many people happy.

[Elena]

Here's the thing. Regional dialect is a thing.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Reminder. And then two. We literally cannot please everybody with certain pronunciations of certain places.

[Ash]

We try so hard.

[Elena]

No matter what we say, there is a subsection of people that get angry about the pronunciation. So we just gotta pick one and go with it.

[Ash]

I looked on several websites and it said, say St. Louis. If you're talking to St. Louis.

[Elena]

And you know what? There's bigger problems in the world. Bigger than St. Louis or St. Louis.

[Ash]

It's true.

[Elena]

Being pronounced one way or the other.

[Ash]

It's true.

[Elena]

Just reminder.

[Ash]

Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for having my back on that. With his bigger problems. So James was headed to his night class at St. Louis University, but the next time anybody saw him, he was being chased through the city by an unidentified gunman.

[Elena]

What the. Yeah. Escalated so quickly, Wildly, exponentially.

[Ash]

Yeah. It's about to escalate even more because a little past 7:30pm, Poly Tullio was driving on Fine Arts Drive near the city art museum when he came upon a very unexpected sight. In the middle of the road, illuminated by his headlights, he said he saw a, quote, stockily built man wearing a brown hat and a dark top coat standing over another man on the ground, pointing a gun at him.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

Yeah. When the lights of the car crossed over the stocky man, he fled down a side street and just disappeared into the night.

[Elena]

And this is 7:30 at night?

[Ash]

Yes, a little past 7:30. So just as Tulio got out of the car, another passerby, Dan Holmes, stopped and both of them ran to see if they could help the man lying in the middle of the street. And when it was clear that he was badly injured, Dan ran to the art museum to find a guard to call the police. He was still breathing when he was discovered in the streets by the two drivers. But. But James Bullock couldn't speak. And he died just as he was being loaded into the ambulance. He was young, very young. Now, as the closest officers to the scene when the call came in, detectives John Vining and Phil Dwyer were dispatched to the art museum. And they were stunned by the condition of this victim. By the time they arrived, James was a bloody mess. He had two bullet holes in his head and one in his shoulder. And in addition to the two small caliber bullet wounds in his head, there were also six tiny wounds in his chest, which suggested that he'd been shot by a shotgun.

[Elena]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

And it also looked like somebody had struck him with their car and run over both of his legs. Oh, my God. Like, talk about overkill. This poor man. A quick search of his body produced his wallet, which still had a $20 bill inside, and he was wearing his gold wedding ring. So the detectives were like, okay, this doesn't really seem like a robbery. No, but what the fuck is this now? Just behind the art museum, they were able to locate his green Plymouth. And the driver's side door was still open, and the car was actually still running inside. They did find blood evidence, so that suggested that he had been shot one time inside the car, and then was able to. He got out on foot and ran in the direction of where he was found on the street, and there was literally a blood trail in the snow from the car to the road.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

Yeah. Other than the blood in the car and his body on the street, though, there really didn't seem to be any additional evidence. And remember, this is the 50s, so, yeah, like, there's not a whole bunch that they're doing at that crime scene. But the most puzzling thing to the detectives were the three distinctly different injuries that he had suffered. Whoever shot him in the head and shoulder was obviously, or at least most likely the same person who shot him in the chest. But they weren't sure yet if it was the same person that had run over his legs or if that happened afterwards. And maybe it was an accident or something like that. So they hoped that his family could provide some insight into what had happened here.

[Elena]

And.

[Ash]

And they started with his wife of only six months, Ruth. I know. Not wanting to shock her or imply anything super nefarious, they just said that James had been killed in an accident, and they left out a lot of details. According to Ruth, he occasionally drove through Forest park on his way to the university, so that's why he was in that area that night. But unfortunately, other than that, there wasn't a lot that she could tell him. So rather than subject her to the horrible state that her husband's body was in, the identification was done by James's Aunt Geraldine, who had been taking care of him since he was young because both of his parents had died. Oh, this is such a tragic situation.

[Elena]

And it's like. Which is worse.

[Ash]

I know, I know.

[Elena]

Goodness.

[Ash]

Now, the next morning, when the news about the murder hit the papers, a man named Lester Rodwald came forward, and he told police that he was the one who had run over James's legs accidentally. According to him, he said he was on his way home from classes at the university. And as he drove around the corner, he saw a man standing in the road waving his arms. But by the time he processed what was happening, it was too late to hit the brakes. And even though he tried to swerve to avoid. Avoid hitting James, he still fell. And that was when Rodwald ran over his legs.

[Elena]

Oh, man.

[Ash]

Yeah, it was clear that obviously he should have reported this when it happened.

[Elena]

Yeah, but you should always report that.

[Ash]

Yeah, but it was an accident, and he was ruled out as a suspect. Okay. Now, Louis Gola, who had been driving a few yards behind Rodwell that evening, confirmed the story, too. He said he also saw that man waving his hands and what he thought was an attempt to FL. Drag somebody down. And he said he also caught a glimpse of a second man who either appeared to be with Bullock or chasing him. He wasn't quite sure which. I was like, I feel like that's a pretty clear distinction.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But I don't know. He said the man was of average height. He was wearing an old trench coat and a hat. And it was pretty difficult to describe his appearance other than that. As he passed the two men, though, Gola said that it appeared the second man was saying something to James, but he couldn't make out the words. And he did notice that the man had what looked like blood on his face and in his hand. He was either holding a gun or a club. Most likely a gun, given what we know.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, aside from a few witnesses who had seen the second man, there was also a report of a strange, strange incident that occurred shortly before James was killed. Jerry Wilmering, who was parked by the school with his girlfriend just about two hours before the shooting. He told police that a man ran up to their car out of the darkness and out of just, like, nowhere and tried to get into the vehicle. Oh, that shouting. I'm not the one. I'm not the one.

[Elena]

Yeah, I'm not the one, either. You're not getting in this car.

[Ash]

That's basically what Jerry told the man. He got out of the car, and they kind of just like, fought briefly before the man ended up running away, and Jerry and his girlfriend just drove home. Like, what the.

[Elena]

Jerry is also not the one.

[Ash]

Jerry is not the one. Yeah. So with not much else to go on, the detectives turned their attention back to Ruth Bullock, hoping that she might be able to fill in any kind of the missing information. And according to her, the couple had met about nine months earlier. They dated for a pretty short time, only three months, and then they were married. But she insisted they had no marital problems, and they were absolutely happy. She said she couldn't think of any reason why somebody would have wanted her husband dead. And she couldn't think of anybody who he'd even fought with recently or had any kind of issue with at all.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Now, at first, she seemed every bit the devastated new wife that you would expect in this situation. But the more investigators spoke with her, the more complicated the entire picture of their life together got.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Because it turned out that Ruth had previously been. Been married to Dr. Glenn Engelman, a dentist that she met while he was still in dental school. They were married in 1953, but there were problems in that relationship from the start. The biggest thing being that I don't know why this is coming up so often in stories lately. Although he was a married adult man, he refused to move out of the home that he shared with his mother.

[Elena]

Is this like, an epidemic?

[Ash]

I think it might be. It's like the male loneliness epidemic, but it's like the male loves his mama too much epidemic. Like, what is going on now? Not only would he not move out of the house that he shared with his mom, but he also wouldn't let Ruth move in with them.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Which is weird. So instead, Ruth just, like, shared an apartment with several other young women who she was in dental school with, and she and her husband would see each other at night and then just go their separate ways.

[Elena]

My stomach even.

[Ash]

Your stomach was upset about that?

[Elena]

My stomach just was like, no, absolutely not.

[Ash]

Your stomach said so after it, I. After about three years, Ruth had had had enough of this, and they divorced. She insisted that they parted on good terms and fast.

[Elena]

Nothing changed, really.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Honestly, we were living together to begin with.

[Ash]

Well, that's the thing. She actually still continued to see him pretty regularly. Oh, he cleaned her teeth still. Sometimes he gave her money, and they occasionally slept together. So it was pretty much just like their marriage, but it just wasn't official anymore.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

He also even cleaned her new husband's teeth just a few weeks earlier.

[Elena]

It's getting really weird.

[Ash]

Imagine your new husband. Your. Your old husband cleaning your new husband's teeth. Like, that's a little bit messy. No, it's kind of giving, Reba. You know what I mean? I love that show.

[Elena]

Single mom who works too hard, who

[Ash]

loves her kids and never stops. So Ruth offered this information up freely to the detectives. Like, she was like, yeah, I still slept with my ex husband, like, from time to time. And, like, him and my new husband got along, cleaned his teeth.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

I don't know if James knew that she was still sleeping with her ex, but.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So everything she told them was shocking and pretty scandalous, even. Now, that would be shocking and scandalous. But again, mind you, this is the 1950s.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And even to harden detectives, they were like, what the fuck is your arrangement?

[Elena]

They're like, what's going on?

[Ash]

But she took a polygraph exam and she passed it.

[Elena]

So they were like, okay, those are scientific.

[Ash]

So, yeah, back then they were like, oh. They were like truth serum.

[Elena]

That's it.

[Ash]

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[Ash]

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[Brian]

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All of their pieces are super duper,

[Brian]

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[Ash]

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[Brian]

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[Ash]

So under the circumstances, they thought it was worthwhile to track down Glenn Engelman for an interview?

[Elena]

I would say so, yeah.

[Ash]

Because I mean, he's still intimately involved with Ruth even after their divorce. Maybe he wanted to get rid of her new husband and rekindle their romance.

[Elena]

Yeah. So he could continue living at mom's house.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Date his wife.

[Ash]

Maybe he wanted to change that up a little. Or who knows. Unfortunately though, when they did catch up with him, he would not talk to them.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

At a later Course, his mom said no.

[Ash]

His mommy probably did say no. I actually don't really know anything about his mommy, but other than I know. I know he disappointed.

[Elena]

I know enough.

[Ash]

Well, at a later coroner's inquest, he said, as a result of advice I have been given by my counsel, I feel I may incriminate myself. Why?

[Elena]

They're like, wow, that's not guilty talk at all.

[Ash]

Yeah. So that made him look pretty suspicious, but apparently he did have an alibi. Well, Thomas Johnson, a friend of his, told detectives that he visited Engelman at his office around 7:15pm on the night of the murder. So, like, I mean, he was discovered right around that time was. Yeah. He said the two had stayed at the office until around 9pm Just chatting. And they also went to a local drugstore to get a drink, and they were seen by the pharmacist at the store.

[Elena]

And you got to trust Tommy Johnson.

[Ash]

Yeah, of course, I. I do trust Tommy Johnson.

[Elena]

Tommy Johnson.

[Ash]

But that being the case, it would have been impossible for Engelman to have been involved in this murder. Right, Right. So it seemed that every time detectives thought that they found something that might lead them to the killer, every lead was quickly falling apart. So with no new evidence and no new leads to work from, they went back to James's personal history, hoping maybe there was something there to point to the killer. But once they started digging into his past, it was pretty clear that he wasn't somebody that you would necessarily expect to get murdered. His supervisors at Union Electric Co. Described him as an industrious and conscientious worker. They said he was moving ahead in his career quickly due to his hard work and drive to succeed. Aww. James and his friends were just as shocked. According to his friend Ed Lugee, there was something about him that made you want to do your best to help him.

[Elena]

Oh, that's heartbreaking.

[Ash]

He had such a tragic story as a kid. He had already gone through a lot. First, he experienced a physical disability that required multiple surgeries when he was young. And then his parents were both killed in a tragic accident when he was a teenager. Yeah. So that, along with his personality, just endeared him to people. And everybody who knew him best was very, very protective of him.

[Elena]

Oh, James.

[Ash]

Yeah. So there was absolutely nothing to go on here. So the case was in danger of growing cold and being shelved when in 1959, a St. Louis lawyer contacted police and told them that he might know who killed James Bullock. According to the lawyer, his client, Thomas Murphy, had confessed to him that he and another man, Ivan Deckard, had been hired by Glenn Engelman and Ruth Bullock. Oh, Ruth. To kill James.

[Elena]

Jesus.

[Ash]

Now, when detectives looked into Murphy and Deckard's backgrounds, it did turn out that both of them had been in prison for murder, and they were only recently paroled when James Bullock was killed. Yikes. Yeah. In an interview with investigators, Murphy said that he'd just been paroled on December 1, 1958, when an acquaintance asked him whether he would be interested in taking a hit job fresh out of prison. Just got out, and he said, yeah, yeah. And soon he was put in touch with Glenn Engelman and his ex wife, who offered $12,500, which would be about 150k today, for the murder. And they all worked out the details. So the story, definitely, it seemed plausible. And detectives did even manage to verify some of the details that were provided, like having met with Ruth and Engelman in certain locations to discuss the plan. They had also always suspected, though, that Engelman was involved in the murder. But he had that alibi that ruled him out as the killer. So this new version of events did make sense. They're like, okay, this is how that could have worked out.

[Elena]

This is how he was involved.

[Ash]

But there was a problem. Murphy changed his account of things not that long after his first confession. Literally just days later, he said that, sure, I was involved in the conspiracy, but I didn't do the actual killing, and I'm not sure who did.

[Elena]

Oh, there you go.

[Ash]

It's like, pull it back. What?

[Elena]

Pull it back now.

[Ash]

And then Ivan Deckard, the man who he originally said he did everything with, was just as unreliable. And his details changed all the time, too. Now, the other issue was that by the time investigators had caught up with Ivan Deckard, the second man involved, he was already in jail for a robbery where two police officers had been shot.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

And Ivan's partner in the robbery had also been killed.

[Elena]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

So he was facing very serious charges for the robbery and the shootings. And it was clear to the detectives that he was hoping to use what he knew about the James Bullock case as a bargaining chip to get a lighter sentence. So it's all super messy now. Yeah. So because of all the inconsistencies and just the straight up mess, they were looked at as unreliable witnesses. And the prosecutor declined to bring the case to a grand jury. So now, with their best lead having fallen apart, nothing new to go on, the detectives just had to shift their attention to more pressing matters. Now, in the years after James's death, Ruth eventually collected a very large insurance payout from his life insurance, and she kind of just went about her life. When the judge gave his ruling in the insurance case, he said the death officially remains a mystery. And whether the mystery will be solved to the satisfaction of the state criminal law is another mystery in and of itself.

[Elena]

Well, damn.

[Ash]

He said, say mystery again.

[Elena]

Mystery.

[Ash]

Now, Glenn Engelman, meanwhile, just continued growing his dental practice in St. Louis.

[Elena]

Oh, good.

[Ash]

He got married a second time to a woman named Edna.

[Elena]

All right.

[Ash]

They seem to live a quiet life, but behind closed doors, everything was very awful. He was having extramarital affairs. He would fly into violent rages at any kind of inconvenience, and he was always directing his anger and his violence at Edna. Things finally came to a Head in 1965, and the marriage broke down completely when Engelman literally threw her out of the house. Like, physically threw her out of the house.

[Elena]

Was it his mom's house?

[Ash]

Probably. Who even knows?

[Elena]

He sounds like such a loser.

[Ash]

He is a loser. So he physically threw her out of the house and then just tossed all her luggage and everything that belonged to her out at her as she was just trying to get out of there. Later, Edna would tell her brother, that was just the last of many violent altercations that she experienced with Glenn. And at one time, she said, he even tried to kill her with an overdose of barbiturates.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

Yeah. Eventually, within a decade or so, the activities of Glenn would be of interest to a great many people. But until then, he was just another suspect in a case that, sadly, a lot of people had forgotten about by then. But then, on the afternoon of September 5, 1976, a woman named Carmen Helm and her husband, Peter, they were on their way to a car show in Pacific, Missouri, when at some point, they stopped paying attention and finally realized that they'd driven past their destination. According to Carmen, rather than just turn around and go back, Peter said that he wanted to stop by a state park to check out some of the local caves. So they parked their car, and they started walking to the woods in the direction of the caves. They stopped briefly just to talk at a little pond, take in the scenery, just, you know, having a nice little afternoon hike. But then suddenly, there was a loud bang, and Peter fell to the ground, bleeding out of absolutely nowhere.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

So Carmen screamed and ran in back in the direction of the car. And a local family heard her screaming and ran to help. And they flagged down a car, and somebody got the police. In her eventual statement to the police, Carmen explained That she and her husband had been out for a walk, stopped briefly, and Peter was suddenly shot. But she didn't see or hear anyone else around them at the time.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

That's so scary. Yeah, like sniper kind of stuff. By the time they made it to the hospital, 26 year old Peter was dead from a single gunshot wound.

[Elena]

Holy, that is young.

[Ash]

Yeah. Now, back at the park crime scene, technicians searched around the woods and found a 6 millimeter hunting rifle with a telescopic sight buried under a large pile of leaves just about 50 yards from where Peter had been discovered. They found one spent cartridge on the ground, and it had obviously been discharged from the chamber. And the bullet itself had gone through Peter's body, so they didn't have that to match with the gun, but the caliber matched the wound, so it seemed that that was the rifle used.

[Elena]

And the fact that there was a rifle buried, like 50 years killed.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. So in a press conference with reporters, lead detective George Ice urged journalists not to jump to conclusions about the death. According to Ice, there was a strong possibility that the shooting was accidental. He said, for example, it could have been a hunter who accidentally fired his weapon and then ran once he realized what he was.

[Elena]

Okay, I mean, that's valid because at

[Ash]

first when I read that, I was like the are you talking about? But then with that example, it's like, yeah, okay, maybe. But still, he did encourage anybody who had been in the area that day to contact police, whether they had seen or heard anything. He just wanted to hear from people in the area. Unfortunately, while several people did come forward and they gave statements to the police, none of them had actually seen Peter get shot. And nobody had really anything of value. Peter's parents even offered a thousand dollar reward for information leading to the arrest. But the trail still went cold and the case became inactive. Now, if the case had happened in St. Louis, detectives might have noticed that there were some similar aspects to the James Bullock case. Peter and his wife hadn't been married for very long when Peter was murdered. And Peter had recently taken out a life insurance policy with much more coverage than most people his age. And his wife was the sole beneficiary.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

Yeah. But most importantly, just like Ruth Bullock, Carmen Holm had a connection to Dr. Glenn Engelman.

[Elena]

What are the odds?

[Ash]

Not only had she worked for him as a dental assistant. Excuse me. In the recent past, but she had also known him for decades. And her brother Nick was still very close friends with him.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

Yeah. Now, unfortunately, though, Peter Helm's death did not occur in St. Louis. So investigators had no reason to suspect Carmen of her husband's death or a random dentist who lived 40 miles from the crime scene.

[Elena]

Oh shit.

[Ash]

So nobody challenged her when she filed paperwork for a claim on the insurance policy. And just a few months after the death, she received $60,000, which today is about $350,000.

[Elena]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

Yeah, so a little moving forward here. A little past 7:30 on November, November 3, 1977, a Bell telephone operator got a call from a man who didn't give his name and she could barely understand him.

[Elena]

Him.

[Ash]

As far as she could tell, the man was hurt and just needed an ambulance. She managed to get the address before the man on the other end just dropped the phone. And the ambulance was dispatched to the house of Arthur and Vanita Goosel. When the ambulance arrived at the remote farmhouse just outside of Edwardsville, it was clear that this was not an ordinary medical emergency. The front of the house was completely dark and the door was locked. So paramedics went around back where they found the door to the kitchen unlocked. Inside, lying face down on the floor was 55 year old Vernita and she was dead with three gunshot wounds to her head.

[Elena]

What is going on?

[Ash]

In the living room adjacent to the kitchen, paramedics found her husband, 61 year old Arthur, just sitting in his reclining chair. He was bleeding heavily from a gunshot wound to the back of his head, but he was still conscious and seemed to be mumbling something soft.

[Elena]

Oh my God.

[Ash]

When the paramedics got close to check his injuries, they heard him say, I've been shot and robbed. I can't see. I've been shot and robbed. My wife has been hurt. She needs an ambulance. I can't see. I need an ambulance.

[Elena]

Oh, that's so sad.

[Ash]

And then he lost consciousness. And as he was carried out to the ambulance, he briefly regained consciousness, though.

[Elena]

Arthur.

[Ash]

And he muttered the word to over and over a few times before just passing out again.

[Elena]

Man.

[Ash]

Yeah. Unfortunately, by the time they made it to Anderson Hospital a short time later, there was nothing that they could do to save Arthur. And he was pronounced dead at 9:30pm oh, Arthur. I know. Now, when they arrived at the scene that night, investigators from the Illinois Department of Law Enforcement suspected a robbery gone wrong. Arthur clearly said they'd been robbed. And from the sound of it, there had been two men. That's kind of what they thought the 222 was. Yeah. It also seemed that someone had torn through the house in a hurry. But the longer that investigators were looking at the scene as a whole, the less sense that theory made.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Detective Richard Barrett said parts of the house were ransacked, but parts weren't. That's an oddity. In fact, not only did it seem that nothing of significance was missing from the house, but when Vernita's body was taken to the morgue, she was still wearing a ton of jewelry, including rings and a watch giveaway. And her purse was lying in the hallway not far from her body. And everything inside was still intact.

[Elena]

Yeah. That not a robbery.

[Ash]

And there was also no sign of forced entry.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

So, yeah. When the autopsy was conducted, though, the coroner determined a small caliber weapon had been used in both of the murders. And the there were powder burns on the victim's skin that indicated that the shooter obviously fired at very close range. The crime was not only extremely out of the ordinary for the region, but it was also extremely brutal. Given the ages and the personalities of both victims, the secretary of their church, Mary Jagel, told reporters, they were just lovely people. They didn't have any enemies. I'm sure they didn't. Oh. And their neighbors echoed the same sentiment, with one saying there was not anyone in the community who would say anything

[Elena]

negative about Arthur and Vernita. I know.

[Ash]

Don't they just sound so.

[Elena]

They really do.

[Ash]

And they're just, like, managing their farm together. Yeah. Now, a search of the house and of the surrounding property, again, didn't really turn up anything useful in the investigation. There was no fingerprints and no other evidence found at the scene. One of the neighbors, Clarence o', Brien, though, did tell detectives that his wife had seen a par. A car pull up at the house around 6pm and drive around the outbuildings in the back. But he also said that Arthur and Vernita's two sons, Richard and Ronald, came by pretty often to visit or help their parents. So they just thought it was one of them just coming to stop by.

[Elena]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Ash]

Right. In addition to everything investigators were learning, they also found out that everyone who knew the couple knew they were unlikely targets for a robbery because Arthur was known to be a successful farmer at the time, and he was one of the wealthier residents in the area. But he paid for everything, even just small purchases with checks, and he never had cash in the house.

[Elena]

So it's like you're not going to find anything.

[Ash]

That's the thing. It was, like, well known amongst the community. Now, at the time, there was no way local investigators would have connected the murders of Arthur and Vernita Goosel to two other Seemingly unrelated murders years earlier. It also somehow didn't occur to any of them that the gooseawell's injuries resembled the execution style killings common in mob related murders like Point Blank Range, Back in the Head. Yeah, those connections would come a lot later to everybody's shock and horror. But until then, the case was treated as a straightforward yet kind pretty rare instance of a home invasion gone wrong.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Now, in hope of generating some leads, the Madison County Farm bureau offered a five thousand dollar reward for any information leading to the arrest of the killers. But other than some pranks from True Blue, I can't believe we've always been

[Elena]

this shitty as a species, even back then. I really can't believe it. We just never got better. No, we just got a little different. Different methods.

[Ash]

Other than that the, the reward did not produce any concrete leads. So while detectives on the Goose well case spun their wheels just desperately trying to find anything that would lead them to the killer. The Goose Wells estate, which was valued at roughly half a million dollars back then, which today would be about 2.5 million. It got tied up in probate court for a little over a year before it was finally. Everything was finally split evenly between Richard and Ronald goosewell in late 1978. Okay. Now by the time their estate was awarded to their two children, the murder case had been shelved and detectives on the case shifted their attention again to more present active cases. But then in April 7, 1979, just one year later, the case was unexpectedly revived when one of Arthur and Vernita's children, 33 year old Ronald, was found dead in the backseat of his own car in East St. Louis.

[Elena]

Oh, we're back in St. Louis.

[Ash]

On the evening of April 4th, police were called to the parking lot of Coleman's Plaza in St. Louis for a report of a suspicious vehicle that had been in the lot for several days. Now, when they arrived and they checked out the car, they found Ronald slumped in the backseat with a huge bullet hole in his chest.

[Elena]

Oh no.

[Ash]

Upon examination, the coroner determined that his body had been in the lot for at least several days. And while the gunshot wound in his chest was the cause of death, he also suffered a skull fracture from a blunt force injury. And there were also several scratches along his back which the coroner believed had been caused by the body being dragged.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

Yeah. Now given the fact that his parents had also been murdered, Ronald's murder was immediately assumed to be linked to at the time of his death. The investigation into his parents death, like I said, was at a standstill. After Everybody ran out of leads. So the working theory was that Arthur and his wife were mistaken for another unrelated man, Richard Goosel. Like unrelated. Who investigators believed was targeted by the mafia after he testified in a case involving mining rights. So that's what they originally thought before Ronald was killed.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Because it seemed mistaken identity in that case. Seemed plausible.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But now Ronald's murder called that into question. Question. Because obviously one case of mistaken identity

[Elena]

is possible, but two is like one.

[Ash]

Like, why would somebody go back and kill the previous mistaken victim's son?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Elena]

Hey, everyone. Check out this guy and his bird. What is this your first date?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Elena]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Anyways, only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Ash]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms@mint mobile.com. According to his wife, Barbara, Ronald was last seen by his coworkers at the Amaco oil refinery on March 31st around 11:30pm they apparently chatted briefly in the locker room as Ronald was headed home. But when he still hadn't returned home four hours later, Barbara reported him missing. When his body was discovered, his wallet also appeared to be missing. But there was no other evidence collected at the scene and there was not a single witness.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Now, later that month, a man named Andre Jones confessed to killing Ronald Goosel. Oh, he had been arrested and pleaded guilty to the murder of three people in East St. Louis. And he was awaiting sentencing when he was made his confession here. And he also confessed to the brutal murder and robbery of a young couple earlier that same month. The he was facing the death penalty in the robbery homicide. And it's likely that he offered up the other confessions to try to get a lighter sentence.

[Elena]

Oh, okay.

[Ash]

But just like in the other cases, if detectives have been aware of the connections between the victims and a certain St. Louis dentist.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

The murder of Ronald Goosel and his parents might have made a lot more sense. But they had no way of knowing that Ronald's wife Barbara had known Glenn Engelman for nearly 20 years.

[Elena]

What is going on?

[Ash]

And like the others, Angelman offered up a way to help her get access to the goose of all's money. A lot faster than just waiting for nature to take its course, Ladies. They didn't know that.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

So instead, detectives focused on Andre Jones and started looking for evidence that confirmed his confession. Now back to Glenn Engelman. Yeah, by the late 70s, he was on his third marriage to Ruth Jolly, and things were starting to fall apart. Engelman was just as abusive to her as he had been to his previous wives. And Ruth tried several times to leave him, but he wouldn't agree to a divorce. And at that time, it would have been pretty impossible for her to strike out on her own and maintain the same life. And she had a Young son as well. So she tried to stick with it. But sometimes her husband said things that absolutely terrified her. He talked about killing people or having people killed his ex wife's new husband outside the art Museum in St. Louis. He said a man in the woods outside Pacific and even three members of a family in Edwardsville.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Any of that sound familiar to you?

[Elena]

Sure does.

[Ash]

The thing was, though, these stories always seemed to involve women that Glenn had been involved with romantically in his past. And Ruth started to wonder if he had maybe been having an affair throughout their marriage or multiple affairs. Probably, but unfortunately it was even worse. He probably was having affairs, but I think that there was more to it even worse. Exactly. Now, in the late afternoon of January 14, 1980, a woman named Sophie Marie Barrera left her dental laboratory a little before 5pm it was a pretty ordinary day, as far as anybody could tell, except this afternoon when she put her key in the ignition and turned it to start the car. The car exploded into a ball of flames, instantly killing Sophie in the blast and shattering the windows of the surrounding buildings.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

When emergency responders arrived a short time later, they. There was no attempt made to save Sophie because according to Sergeant Thomas Casey of the bomb squad, the lower part of her anatomy was destroyed.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

She had been killed instantly. Her death was a surprise to everybody she knew, to say the absolute least. But when detectives arrived at the lab that afternoon to start their investigation, eerily, it seemed like Sophie had expected something like this might happen to her.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

Sitting by the phone in her office, detectives found a pad with the police emergency number written down on it. And call logs would later reveal that she called that number earlier in the day but had hung up. Oh, yeah. Also, her son Frederick told investigators that his mother had said something a few days earlier indicating she thought she might die in an explosion.

[Elena]

What the.

[Ash]

In fact, in March of the previous year, police had been called to her home when she found a bag full of dynamite and an electric detonator beside her home.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

Earlier that day, a local boy had seen the bag and opened it up to look inside. And when he didn't find anything that interested in it interested him, he walked away and he left the bag open, which luckily exposed it to rain. So when the bag did explode a short time later, it just scorched the outside of the garage. But it didn't. It could have absolutely blew up the house.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

Now, it was quickly determined that the bomb placed in Sophie's car was very similar to the one that had been found at her home. Just a year earlier, and that both were created by the same person, and both devices demonstrated a, quote, apparent high level of skill.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

Yeah. So when detectives looked back at the earlier investigation into the bomb at the house, they concluded that Sophie may have known her killer and maybe hadn't been entirely forthcoming. In previous interviews, Thomas Casey said, personally, I thought there was more she could reveal. A lot of innuendos were made on her part, but we were unable to substantiate a lot of them. I think out of fear. I think she was scared. Now, as you might imagine, she had a connection to a certain dentist.

[Elena]

Oh, you don't say.

[Ash]

At the time of her death, she was involved in a lawsuit with local dentist Glenn Engelman.

[Elena]

Oh, Jesus.

[Ash]

He owed her a little over $14,000 for work that was performed by her lab, and he was refusing to pay it.

[Elena]

He's such a piece of.

[Ash]

He really is. Also look up a picture.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

On the night of her murder, detectives interviewed Engelman for more than three hours, but told reporters that they weren't seeking warrants for his arrest at that time. They did indicate that he refused to take a polygraph, though, and that they were planning on following up with him in the days that followed it. Doesn't he look exactly like you thought?

[Elena]

No, actually, worse. Way worse.

[Ash]

Really?

[Elena]

Because I'm thinking, like, he's getting all these women to do things and, like, having affairs and marrying several women.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

What? Yeah. I think money had a lot to do with a lot of this. Wow. I think a lot of it was just money, money, money. Yeah. Now, as far as Sophie's son was concerned, his mother's death likely had something to do with the lawsuit against Engelman, which was scheduled to be heard in county circuit court days after Sophie was killed. Holy. Now, not long after the murder of Sophie Barrera, Ruth Jolly, Glenn's wife at the time, finally came to the conclusion that all of the things her husband had told her about the previous murders were very likely true. So in late January, after becoming frightened for not only her own safety but her son's, Ruth went to the police, and she told them about everything she suspected her husband to be involved in. Not only did she think Glenn murdered Sophie, but she also believed that he had killed Peter Halm and several other people. He is so scary. He's terrifying. Now, at first, federal investigators were kind of skeptical of her story, but at the same time, they had to admit she did seem to know a lot of details, a lot more than the ordinary person. So they asked her if she would be willing to wear a wire and record her conversations with her husband. And she agreed, which, like.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's so weird I was gonna say that.

[Ash]

Yeah, that really is. That's such a scary situation to get yourself into or to have to be involved in. Now, to investigators, surprise, the recordings not only implicated Glenn Engelman in the murder of Sophie Barrera, but also in the murders of Peter Halm, the three members of the Gusebell family, and the 1963 death of a man named Eric Frey, whose death had previously been ruled accidental.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

We have a whole other death here.

[Elena]

There's a whole other person.

[Ash]

In one recording, Engelman can be heard saying, I'm $20,000 ahead. Fortuitous event with Barrera dying, referring to him not having to pay a lab debt anymore.

[Elena]

Fortuitous event with Barrera dying. Wow.

[Ash]

Yeah. Now, in another conversation recorded just a few days later, he was heard openly discussing the death of Peter Halmond. On the recording, he doesn't just implicate himself, but also Peter's wife, Carmen.

[Elena]

I'm glad she got connected finally.

[Ash]

Yeah. Ruth later clarified that Glenn had conspired with Carmen and her brother Nick to kill Peter for insurance money.

[Elena]

Ew.

[Ash]

Ruth told investigators Carmen was going to give Glenn Engelman $20,000 for his help.

[Elena]

This is so gross.

[Ash]

It really is, because it's all just about money.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, in time, the recorded conversations between Ruth and Glenn would verify nearly every single detail of Ruth's original story.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Just like he had done in the murder of Peter Halm, Glenn Engelman had conspired with Barbara Boyle and the murder of Arthur Venita and Ronald Goosewell, all so she could get her hands on the inheritance.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

She had an entire family killed. She did her inheritance.

[Ash]

Yep. In order for the money to make its way to Ronald, Arthur and Vernita needed to die first.

[Elena]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

And as far as murder for hire schemes went, it was remarkably elaborate and unfolded over much more time than things usually did. But in the end, it paid off because Barbara inherited more than $500,000, which today would be 2.2 million.

[Elena]

Wow. What a nasty.

[Ash]

Right. So, to investigators on the Sophie Barrera case, not only were the recordings incredible, but they also seemed to close several previously unsolved murders in various parts of Missouri. The only question remaining was, why would a successful dentist who never appeared to be in need of money willingly and eagerly participate in multiple murders?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, based on, like, why would you want to be involved in that? But based on the recordings and testimony from ruth in mid February 1980, federal agents were able to finally get an arrest for Glenn Engelman on charges of murdering just Sophie Barrera and Peter Helm. By that time, he was very suspicious that investigators were on to him, especially for the murder of Sophie, and they didn't want to give him any opportunity to run. Now, at the same time, they also arrested one of his co conspirators in the Barrera killing. A man named Robert Handy, who was a former neighbor of Glenn's in the 60s and known to police for multiple prior counterfeiting arrests. Just like a local con.

[Elena]

Why are you living these lives?

[Ash]

Who knows? As detectives continued matching the details of Ruth Jolly statement and the recordings to the unsolved murders, things finally started to fall into place. So get ready to solve this giant puzzle.

[Elena]

All right, let's go.

[Ash]

So Glenn Engelman was Ruth Bullock's ex husband. The original Ruth.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And the two were still having that sexual relationship when James Bullock was murdered in 1958. And Ruth was awarded the insurance bailout. Eric Frey. One murder that we hadn't talked about yet because they just discovered that he was involved. He owned a drag strip with Glenn Engelman at the time of his death, which was originally thought to be an accidental explosion in a well at the strip in 1960.

[Elena]

Stop.

[Ash]

Eric's wife received a huge insurance payout for the accident. And it was later discovered that she shared that payout with Glenn Engelman.

[Elena]

What the.

[Ash]

Now, at the time of Eric Frey's death, Nick Miranda worked at that same drag strip. And his sister Carmen.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Would later work for Glenn Engelman as a dental assistant before leaving the job and marrying Peter Halm.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

In every single case, pretty much angle had a direct connection to the wives of the victims. And. And it would turn out, benefited financially from the deaths. They would always split the insurance payout.

[Elena]

So was her name Carmen Miranda?

[Ash]

It was.

[Elena]

That's a famous singer.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So look at that.

[Elena]

That just. I had to double check.

[Ash]

No, you're right.

[Elena]

Sure. I wasn't crazy.

[Ash]

Her maiden name. Yeah, she was Carmen Helm.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That's crazy. Before she killed her husband.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The only outlier in that respect, like of him knowing all the wives and benefiting from the insurance payout was Sophie Barrera. But obviously in that case, his debt was essentially wiped away and he didn't have to go to court. So on March 15, 1980, Glenn Engelman, Robert Handy were indicted on capital murder charges and the bombing death of Sophie. Sophie Barrera. First degree murder for the shooting of Peter Helm. Excuse me. And 16 counts of mail and wire fraud related to all the money received from Peter Holmes wife, Carmen.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

At the time of the indictment, Missouri's death penalty was on hold pending revisions. So the maximum penalty for the Holmes murder. For Holmes murder, excuse me, Was life in prison. But the Sophie Barrera case, on the other hand, was a federal charge. And the maximum penalty for capital murder was death. Which the federal prosecutor fully intended to pursue.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, Engelman pleaded not guilty to the charges and went to trial in the fall of 1980. Unfortunately for him, the evidence against him, especially the records made by his wife without his knowledge. Ruth. And the eventual testimony of Carmen Halm, who testified against him. What all particularly damning. She had to to get her own

[Elena]

ass out of it.

[Ash]

No. On September 17, he was found guilty of the murder of Peter hall and sentenced to 30 years in prison. And a month later, he was found guilty of the Sophie Barrera murder and sentenced to 30 years, with an additional 20 for various other charges. So that was going to spend forever in prison. But he was still facing a potential trial for the murders of Arthur Vernita and Ronald Goosel and a possible death sentence if he lost that trial. He eventually decided not to take the risk. And in 1985, he just pleaded guilty to all three of those murder. Murders, Excuse me. And he was given three life sentences.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Now, the previous year, federal prosecutors arrested Ronald Guseval's wife, Barbara Boyle, just days before she and her boyfriend were planning to flee the country.

[Elena]

Oh, man, the timing.

[Ash]

She went to trial and was ultimately found guilty of conspiring in the death of her husband. A. But the jury determined there was insufficient evidence to convict her of the deaths of Arthur and Vernita.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

She did, however, serve 25 years in prison, but was paroled in 2009.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Yeah. So Glennon Engelman obviously appealed his guilty verdicts. They always do. Specifically in the Barrera and the Helm murder cases. But the higher courts upheld the lower court's rulings. Luckily, unfortunately, while detectives strongly and suspected Engelman of being the shooter in the James Bullock case, the district attorney in 1985 didn't feel that there was enough evidence to charge him and bring him to trial.

[Elena]

Come on.

[Ash]

I know. They just didn't think that they would win. But he did spend the rest of his life in prison. He died on March 3, 1999, in the infirmary of the Jefferson City Correctional center, where he had at the time been receiving treatment for advanced complications from diabetes. 80s.

[Elena]

Yikes.

[Ash]

Now, as for why he participated in and even arranged so Many murders. The answer was simple. He was a psychopath who frequently confessed to enjoying killing. I was.

[Elena]

That had to have been the only answer, because it was really no.

[Ash]

It was money. And he enjoyed it. He had money, but he just wanted more. Like, he was a greedy.

[Elena]

And, yeah, he just killed, like, doing this.

[Ash]

Former St. Louis Post dispatch reporter Bill Bryan said he had no conscious when it came to killing. He said, once it takes a certain kind of person to be able to kill another human being, it always seemed to me that he got some pleasure out of the planning and carrying out of it. So you just liked the entire, like, start to finish planning it, actually going forward with it.

[Elena]

And what's crazy to me is he was able to find so many, especially so many women that were also completely lacking any kind of conscience when it came to. Like, how do you find that many people that are, like, on your level?

[Ash]

I think a lot of times, or I. I will say, like, at least in one specific case, Carmen, she was so much younger than him, and she had her brother and Glenn Engelman just, like, really hounding her to do this. And obviously she's, like, just as culpable. Yeah. But she was so young that I think she was very easily molded by these two people. But then in the other cases, it's like, these women just wanted money.

[Elena]

Yeah. I just don't. I don't understand how he was able to find so many people that were willing to. To just be rotten with him. Yeah, that's just crazy.

[Ash]

Well, and it's sad, too, that a lot of them really weren't, like, they didn't. They didn't face any justice. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[Elena]

It's crazy.

[Ash]

It really is a crazy, complicated web. So that is the wild case of Glennon Engelman, the killer dentist. That's wild. Also something that we didn't really touch on. Imagine he was your dentist.

[Elena]

That's the other thing. Imagine you're just like, wait, Dr. Engelman,

[Ash]

like, it's just like, what, Cleaned my teeth last?

[Elena]

He just cleaned my teeth.

[Ash]

And then you got. You gotta find a new dentist.

[Elena]

He just told me I need a root canal. What the that about?

[Ash]

You know, he was one of those doctors that, like, shames you about, like, not being super on top of your flossing, or he made you feel like

[Elena]

the biggest piece of.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And he loved it. Loved it, that guy.

[Ash]

Such a dude.

[Elena]

Douchebag. So gross.

[Ash]

And it's just so sad how many young pe. Like, obviously, like, so many people lost their lives, but so many young people, like 26 years old, 27 years old.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And then the like Arthur and Vernita, just this sweet couple enjoying their farm together and their son. So there's only one member left of their family after that.

[Elena]

Oh, I can't imagine how he felt.

[Ash]

And to know that your sister in law just literally entire family for money. There wouldn't be a safe corner of this earth. Let me tell you, honey.

[Elena]

Nope.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

Damn. What a story. What a story.

[Ash]

Do you have a fun fact as a little palette cleanser for us?

[Elena]

I actually do have a really fun fact.

[Ash]

Tell me all about it.

[Elena]

It's illegal. It's straight up forbidden in certain parts of Washington state to kill Bigfoot. What? Yep. In 1969. I don't know if I'm going to say this right. Skamania county, okay. They passed an ordinance which is number 6901 period. And this designated Bigfoot as an endangered species. And it made the killing of him, Bigfoot himself. Bigfoot, Bigfoot, Big Feet or any Sasquatch, quote unquote, a very serious crime. And you could be punished for it because they have to protect public safety and they have to protect Bigfoot.

[Ash]

Fair enough.

[Elena]

And the penalty was downgraded from this. I guess.

[Ash]

I don't like that.

[Elena]

In 1984, it, it was a felony. They made it an actual felony to kill a Bigfoot. It's a misdemeanor now, so.

[Ash]

A misdemeanor to kill a being? Yeah.

[Elena]

I think it should still be called a felony. That's felonious right now. It carries up to a thousand dollar fine and, or one year in jail. So that's not enough.

[Ash]

Make it a felony.

[Elena]

I think it's pretty felonious to kill big feet. Yeah. They're just saying. That's just me.

[Ash]

What did Bigfoot do to anybody?

[Elena]

Yeah. Don't, don't, don't you dare kill a Bigfoot.

[Ash]

All Bigfoot is trying to do is avoid your ass.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

He doesn't want to deal with us.

[Elena]

He's the master of it too. He has successfully avoided us for a long time.

[Ash]

He sure has.

[Elena]

Let him just continue to let him live. He's just got big feet. That's all he's ever guilty of.

[Ash]

He's just a big boy.

[Elena]

He's just a big boy.

[Ash]

He's just vibing. Exactly. Let him live. Yeah. I love that. That's against the law.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Where are we good for?

[Elena]

Washington State.

[Ash]

Washington state.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Good for you guys.

[Elena]

You go girls. We should also consider making that a law.

[Ash]

Yeah. Let's let's petition our local government.

[Elena]

Let's do it. That's. That's what's important right now.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. Let's. Let's do that one.

[Elena]

Let's put all our effort into that.

[Ash]

All right, guys, we'll be busy doing that. So in the meantime, we hope you keep listening.

[Elena]

We hope you keep it weird, but

[Ash]

not so weird that you don't petition your local government to make the killing of Bigfoot a felony. Just kidding.

[Elena]

Just that.

[Ash]

Yeah. Do a lot more than that. Bye.

[Elena]

Bye, Sa.