Mommy and Clyde: The Crimes of Sante and Kenny Kimes

Summary

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Morbid Podcast: "Mommy and Clyde: The Crimes of Sante and Kenny Kimes"

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Release Date: February 16, 2026

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode of Morbid dives deeply into the twisted and unbelievable criminal saga of Sante Kimes and her son, Kenny Kimes—aptly dubbed "Mommy and Clyde." The hosts unpack their decades-spanning trail of cons, fraud, arson, and at least three murders across the United States and beyond, culminating in the murder of wealthy socialite Irene Silverman in New York City. This episode is a research-heavy chronological journey through the Kimes' elaborate and heinous crimes, balanced with Ash and Alaina's dark humor, tangents, and candid reactions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Setting the Stage: Irene Silverman (06:00–14:32)

• Irene Silverman, the Kimes’ final known victim, was an 82-year-old Manhattan socialite and former ballet dancer with a vibrant, generous personality.
  • Quote, Ash (06:40): “Honestly, she sounds iconic.”
• Irene loved being surrounded by people and often rented lavish townhouse apartments to interesting tenants—including celebrities.
• Irene’s independence and warmth are highlighted through anecdotes from friends and staff, underlining the tragedy of her loss.

II. The Disappearance and Investigation (14:32–21:05)

• On July 5, 1998, Irene mysteriously disappears after a July Fourth party. Her absence quickly alarms staff and friends.
• A suspicious new tenant, "Manny Guerin," is missing at the same time.
  • Red flags: cash payment, no references, odd behavior, shielding visitors from security cameras.
• The police initially assign the missing persons case to a junior detective, downplaying its urgency.
  • Alaina (13:04): “I was like, that’s fake as well… It’s tedious to find someone missing, so you do it.”

III. The “Tenant”: Unmasking Kenny Kimes (21:05–23:27)

• “Manny” is quickly revealed as Kenny Kimes, already in police custody for unrelated fraud, along with his mother, Sante Kimes.
• Irene’s belongings and other ominous evidence are found in their hotel room and car, suggesting a larger, darker pattern.

IV. The Kimes Criminal Background (28:56–44:39)

Sante Kimes: Born to Scheme

• Sante’s ever-shifting backstory includes tales of poverty, abandoned family, and fictitious hardships, but much is debunked by relatives—she was a habitual liar and thief even in high school.
• The “pathological vs. compulsive liar” debate ensues, with Ash and Alaina swapping definitions and stories about real-life liars.
  • Memorable exchange (30:31):
    • Alaina: “I think it becomes, you can write a whole backstory for a character in a book.”
    • Ash: “It becomes, like, pathological.”

Marriages, Arson, and Fraud

• Sante’s first marriage ends amid mysterious arsons (committed for insurance money); her second to millionaire Ken Kimes is calculated for wealth.
• She regularly commits fraud, larceny—famously walking out of a lounge with someone else’s mink coat.
• Alaina (39:48): “Kent is just like, yeah… She just did that.”

The Slavery Charge (41:41–44:39)

• In 1985, Sante is convicted of literally enslaving a housekeeper, in what was one of the first US peonage/slavery cases in decades.
  • Ash (44:12): “And they were indicted.”
  • Alaina (44:13): “She’s a big old piece of—”
  • Ash: “—So the indictments were the first charges of slavery to be pursued in the United States for many, many, many years.”
• Her sentence is shockingly light: three years in prison.

V. Escalation: From Arson to Murder (44:49–56:52)

Financial Desperation After Ken Kimes’ Death

• After Ken Sr.’s death (he left her nothing), Sante’s crimes escalate. She forges, cons, and targets anyone in her way.
• Her other son Kent distances himself, and the hosts offer genuine support for establishing boundaries.
  • Alaina (53:44): “We love a boundary king. And in the 90s, establishing a boundary. Tough.”

Murders of Associates

• Saeed Bilal Ahmed (First Cayman Bank) disappears after a dinner with Sante and Kenny—murdered for his link to Kimes’ hidden assets.
• Elmer Holmgren, a lawyer/accomplice in arson, confides to friends about setting a fire at Sante’s behest; after an ominous trip with the Kimeses, he vanishes.
• Dave Kasdan, whose property is used for loan fraud, is found murdered after resisting her schemes.
• The number of murders and arsons grows, with authorities often a step behind.

VI. The Irene Silverman Case: Downfall of Mommy and Clyde (62:20–72:29)

• Arrested in New York on unrelated fraud, Sante and Kenny are found with Irene’s keys, passport, social security card, records, guns, wigs, and sedatives—plus tapes of Sante impersonating others (including a casino rep) to scam Irene.

• Despite no body, they are tried and convicted of murder on circumstantial evidence.

• Courtroom Shenanigans: Sante’s histrionics, wild comparisons to the Salem witch trials, and notes to the press.

  • Memorable quote, (66:57): Ash: “This bitch went nuts.”

• Judge’s withering assessment at sentencing:

  • "A sociopath of unremitting malevolence" (Sante)
  • "A vacuous dupe who had evolved into a remorseless predator under his mother's influence" (Kenny)
  • Alaina (68:44): “I have never heard a better description of two people in my entire life.”

• Both receive sentences of 120+ years.

• Kenny later confesses for plea deals: tased and strangled Irene, dismembered, and dumped in Hoboken garbage bags (remains never found).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I was swimming in a sea of what the—”
  – Ash (05:45), on researching the case.
• “She sounds like a hot ticket.”
  – Alaina (09:26), on Irene’s social life.
• “She treated her staff like family.”
  – Ash (17:26), highlighting contrast with Sante’s abuse.
• “She sucks.”
  – Alaina (42:49), on Sante’s treatment of housekeepers.
• “You larcenied a lot.”
  – Alaina (41:13), sarcastically about Sante's crimes.
• “A sociopath of unremitting malevolence…and a vacuous dupe.”
  – Quoted from judge’s sentencing remarks (68:37).
• “They wrapped her body up and threw it in a dumpster in Hoboken…All for money.”
  – Ash (71:23), on Irene Silverman’s fate.

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------| | 06:00–14:32 | Irene Silverman’s life, disappearance, and suspicious tenant | | 14:32–21:05 | Initial police investigation and “Manny Guerin” (Kenny) | | 28:56–44:39 | Deep dive into Sante’s origin stories, arson, and slavery conviction | | 44:49–56:52 | Escalation: arson, fraud, murder of associates, death of Ken Sr. | | 62:20–72:29 | Irene Silverman murder case, evidence, trial madness, sentencing | | 71:21–72:27 | Irene's tragic end and the judge’s condemnation | | 72:49–73:31 | Hosts’ reactions and reflections on the Kimes’ callousness | | 73:31–74:03 | Lighthearted "fun fact" to close: Oldest dog “Bluey” lived to 29½ years |

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Hosts' Tone & Commentary

• The episode weaves together heavy research, relatable reactions, and comedic asides (notably, tangents about “comfort movies,” liar definitions, and hypothetical rooftop tea-spilling).
• Ash and Alaina are alternately incredulous, darkly funny, and genuinely invested in the victims' dignity—especially Irene’s.

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Summary Flow

• Start: Hosts warm up with banter and movie talk before Ash introduces the case, newly discovered.
• Middle: Chronological deep dive into Sante’s lifelong criminality, family dysfunction, boundary-setting, and murder.
• Climax: Detailed unraveling of the Kimeses' final, fatal scam and how investigators finally cornered them.
• End: Grim details of Irene’s end, multiple life sentences for Sante and Kenny, wrap-up with horror at their callousness—before a palate-cleansing dog fact.

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For Those Who Haven't Listened…

This episode presents a panoramic, engaging account of one of America’s most audacious crime duos. You'll hear about the Kimeses' early fraud and arson, Sante's singular mendacity, and the tragic, senseless killing of Irene Silverman—all brought to life with the hosts’ signature irreverence and empathy for the victims. The hosts deftly balance dense detail, tangents, and cathartic outrage, making it a must-listen for true crime aficionados who appreciate both the research and the human moments.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

On February 25, ID presents Lost Women of Alaska. From executive producer Octavia Spencer. This new documentary event investigates the brutal murder of two Alaska native women and the twisted predator who turned their community into his personal hunting ground. The courageous voices of unlikely heroes lead authorities to the sadistic killer, but his arrest is only the beginning of a far deeper horror. The new documentary event, Lost Women of Alaska, premieres February 25th on ID or stream on HBO Max. This episode is brought to you by Kleenex lotion tissues. Cold season shows up like one of those mysteries that always keeps you guessing. Luckily, you can be prepared with Kleenex lotion tissues that protect, soothe, and moisturize your skin when you need it most. Keep them close wherever your day takes you. Whether you're unraveling a mystery or facing a sniffle, Kleenex lotion tissues with coconut oil and aloe are the little comfort that goes a long way during cold and flu season. For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex. In order to support our show, we need the help of some great advertisers. And we want to make sure those advertisers are ones that you'll actually want to hear about. But we need to learn a little more about you to make that possible. So go to podsurvey.commorbid and take a quick anonymous survey that will help get us to know you better. That way, we can bring on advertisers that you won't want to skip. Once you've completed the quick survey, you can enter for a chance to win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's podsurvey.comm O R B I D. Thanks for your help. Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid.

[B]

This is morbid. And we just got finished watching the is it 2009 documentary.

[A]

I think it is 2009.

[B]

Catfish. The movie Catfish. Not the TV show. The movie. It all stemmed from.

[A]

Oh, 2010.

[B]

2010.

[A]

Wow. For some reason, I thought it was earlier than that.

[B]

That movie.

[A]

Wow, Henry aged really well.

[B]

Henry did age very well.

[A]

That's actually nuts.

[B]

But if you haven't watched that movie yet, where are you?

[A]

Honestly, everybody aged pretty well.

[B]

You got to. You got to watch that movie. That movie will give you so many different emotions. It feels like a horror movie.

[A]

No, it becomes. I stand by the fact that it. It turns into a horror movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I remember the first time I watched it, I was like, oh, is this like a found footage?

[B]

Yeah, we thought it was a horror movie. When we first watched it.

[A]

Yeah. I fully get that.

[B]

It's a weird comfort movie for me, even though it's not comforting in any way, because the time period it came out in. We watched it when we were, like, living with friends, and we all watched it together.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And it has, like, a nice, cozy feel to it. And I remember very vividly watching it for the first time. Yeah. So it is, like, one of those movies I can put on, and it puts me in, like, a weird, cozy place. I don't know. It's weird. All right.

[A]

I get. I get it. Being from the time period that, like, feels comfy. I. I understand that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because there are certain movies that are just, like, I love. And this is. This movie's awful. There's one scene that I can't watch. God. No, it's true. Hold on. I'm literally having. I was like, what's going on? I'm having problems. It's the Yaya Sisterhood, I think. Divine Secrets of the Yaya. No. Oh, my God. That's exactly what I was gonna say. I kept going to say, Sisterhood of the Traveling Bands. I don't know why I was like, that's not it.

[B]

Because.

[A]

Sisterhood, you know, Sisterhood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, the Divine Secrets of the Yaya Sisterhood. I love that movie, but it's, like, the darkest movie of all time.

[B]

I've never seen that movie.

[A]

You would hate it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's one scene that, like, literally I could never watch again.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. I saw it, like, way too young, but I love that movie. But it's like. I think it just, like, reminds me of a. Of childhood or something.

[B]

That's the thing. It's like. It's not necessarily. I will say with Catfish, though, every time I feel like I know what is going to happen. I've seen it in.

[A]

But you're still shocked.

[B]

I'm still shocked by it. And I'm still like, just. You could knock me over with a goddamn feather every time.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

And we were watching it, and Deb had not seen it watching. Somebody had not seen it, actually. So we had them watch it for the first time, and they were shocked. And watching their reactions, that's the thing, made us sit there and go, wait a second. We should. Maybe we should talk about the original Catfish movie on a bonus episode, because, you know, it'll be fun and terrifying.

[A]

And wild, and if you've never seen it before, go watch it.

[B]

Don't spoil it for yourself. Go watch it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't.

[A]

Don't Google anything.

[B]

But maybe we'll do. We have a few bonus episodes planned out ahead of time. Like we're going to be covering Eclipse, obviously. We've got a fun book club coming.

[A]

Up and we have America's Next Top.

[B]

Model, America's Sweetie's Next Top Model. So we have those lined up, but we could do it after those and just let us know if that sounds like a good idea. I feel like it would be a fun.

[A]

Yeah, it'd be fun.

[B]

A fun one to like deep dive into. It feels crimey because I would also love to go into like this happening, like the, the phenomenon of catfishing on.

[A]

The Cuz doesn't it feel cry? Oh, it like identity theft is a crime. Yeah.

[B]

I mean if it does feel very cry, you know what I mean? And I, I don't want to ruin anything. So like, I feel. I feel like it would be a fun episode.

[A]

Yeah. There's so much to talk about within.

[B]

So let us know if that sounds like a good. A good episode. Bonus episode for a few out from now. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Hit us up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have a wild case today. And Dave named this one. And I said, what am I getting into? Mommy and Clyde.

[B]

Mommy and Clyde.

[A]

Mommy and Clyde. It's the crimes of Santa and Kenny Kimes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I hadn't heard of this one when I dived into it.

[B]

No, I haven't heard of it.

[A]

And I was swimming in a sea of. What the.

[B]

Oh, I. I always love that.

[A]

And it starts like really beautifully, but then it gets so sad so fast.

[B]

Let's go, girl.

[A]

And then it gets dark and crazy and murderous.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

So it also starts on July 4th.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

On July 4th, 1998, 82 year old Irene Silverman threw a small party for her friends at her East 65th street townhouse.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

She was a former ballet dancer who had studied under the famous Russian instructor Michael Fokine. And even once she was retired and got older, she never lost a single bit of her elegance. This woman is gorgeous. Her friend John Gruen said she was a very exquisite woman, very beautiful. I remember offering her some coffee or tea when she came to our house. She refused, saying she was in constant pain with a bad back. She told us the only way that she could allay the pain was with champagne. And with that she took a small bottle out of her purse and we got her a glass.

[B]

Honestly, she sounds iconic.

[A]

I love her. So it seemed like everybody who had even just a casual relationship with Irene and had only good things to say about her, her former dancer Janice Herbert said she was so hip, so funny, so awake. She was with it. Another close friend, Zhang Toy, echoed those same statements. He said, she's vivacious, she's a lot of fun. Zhang Toy and Irene had actually been friends for many, many years. So of course he had been to her Manhattan townhouse for a ton of the lavish parties that she had thrown throughout the years. And he was always amazed by the lengths that she went to just to make sure everybody was entertained. Like anybody who was at her party, there was going to be something special for each person. He said she knew how to throw a great party during her heyday and she had a heart of gold. So rewinding a bit now, Irene had been born into a poor family in New Orleans, Louisiana. New Orleans, so you would love her. She was born in 1916. Her father was a fisherman, her mother was a seamstress. And despite the odds, she did manage to escape that poverty through her incredible talent and commitment to dance. She was a beautiful dancer. Eventually she landed a spot studying with some of the most famous ballet instructors in the world.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

And at her height, she was dancing on some of the most prestigious stages, which included a high profile position with the Radio City Music Halls Classical ballet company. Oh, like that's a huge deal.

[B]

Huge.

[A]

And that was called, I believe it was called Cor de Ballet. She used to say, lots of people think I'm very rich and I am, but I've always worked and look at where, and look at where I began. I'm a tough broad, a child of the depression. I had to be self supporting from the, the age of 16.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I just love. Lots of people think I'm rich and I am, but she's like you. I worked for it.

[B]

Yeah, good for her.

[A]

She's got great energy. So in 1941, Irene married millionaire real estate broker Sam Silverman and they were happily married until his death in 1980. Obviously they've been married for so, so long. So Sam's death was incredibly hard for Irene. But she was determined to hold on to her love of life. She didn't want to just lose herself in his death. And in the years that followed, she was just making sure she was constantly surrounded by friends and family. Now she was a widow, so she had a lot of time on her hands and she also had more money than she knew what to do with. So 59 year old Irene enrolled in courses at Columbia University.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Started taking classes.

[B]

Look at her.

[A]

And then she'd throw these huge parties for her classmates. And her instructors. And she would regularly treat them to, like, small gifts or gestures of her friendship. Her friend George Frango said these gatherings were colorful improvised theater over which Irene presided, reveling in the intrigue and drama of it all.

[B]

She sounds like a hot ticket.

[A]

She really does.

[B]

She really does.

[A]

It wasn't just that she wanted to fill her time after her husband's death, either. It seemed like no matter where she was, she just wanted to be surrounded by people. Like she had a love for life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the wake of Sam's passing, she decided to rent out one or two of the rooms. She had very large bedrooms in her Manhattan mansion. And over the years, she shared her home with tenants like actor Daniel Day Lewis.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

She rented out to Lenny Kravitz and Shaka Khan.

[B]

No big deal.

[A]

Isn't that nuts?

[B]

No big deal.

[A]

And it wasn't that she needed the money. She just didn't like being alone. And she, again, loved being around people.

[B]

And why not have really awesome people around all the time?

[A]

Well, and that's the thing. When it came to choosing tenants, she had two requirements. They had to be interesting, and they had to be easy to get along with.

[B]

Honestly. That's so valid.

[A]

Yeah, that was pretty much it. So those who happily shared their lives with her usually found themselves rewarded, too, in, like, just unexpected ways.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

According to journalist Alex Kirsta, they might find Silverman's antique silver service and a bottle of champagne left in their dining room. When she knew they were holding a party, one who had embarked on a romance with a new girlfriend came home one day to find his old bed replaced with a much larger one.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

She said, get to it.

[B]

She said, you know what?

[A]

She said, you're welcome. I'll help. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I want to be friends with Irene.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So at the end of the night, just where we started on July 4, Irene said goodbye and good night to her guests, and she went to bed. The next morning, her maid Arichella, came to clean up after the party. And it was a holiday, obviously, so the rest of the staff was off. And Ariela herself was planning to leave around noon. She was working a shorter shift. Okay. The last time she saw Irene, she was still dressed in her nightgown and her slippers. And Irene asked if Ariella would take the dog for a walk on the roof garden before she left. And Ariella was planning to leave for a few hours, and then she was going to come back. Okay. So she was like, oh, before you go, just walk the Dog. So when Archella returned after being away around 4pm she got back, the house was empty and there was no sign of Irene anywhere, which was very strange. Yeah. And as far as Arichella knew, Irene didn't have any plans to go out that day. The rest of the staff was gone, and Irene, like I just told you, she loves being surrounded by people. She very rarely went anywhere alone, so it seemed highly unlikely that she would have left without saying anything to anybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So obviously concerned that something was wrong, Ariela called Irene's butler, Mengi Mengistu, knowing that if anybody knew where Irene had gone, it would be Menji. But. But Menji hadn't heard from Irene since the day before when he left for the long weekend.

[B]

Uh oh.

[A]

So similarly, Irene's close friend and business manager, Jeff Feig, hadn't heard from her in a day or two. And he said she hadn't mentioned having any plans to go anywhere over the holiday weekend. So he agreed. It was weird.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Archella waited in the house for an hour or two. She was like, you know, she could have gone somewhere. It would be out of character. But let's not panic. But after an hour or two, there was. The panic was starting to set in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There was still no sign of Irene, so Ariella called the police. Now, strangely, the day after 4th of July is a quieter day for the Manhattan police. When the call came in about a missing elderly socialite, it didn't seem like a emergency situation, which is kind of weird to me, but the case was assigned to newly promoted junior detective Tom Havageim Hovajim. Excuse me. Later he said, I just gotten promoted in January, so the other two guys were pretty senior to me. And they said, well, kid, this is yours. Because nobody really wants a missing person's case. It's tedious work.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

I was like, that's fake as well.

[B]

Right. Cool. It's tedious to find someone missing, so you do it.

[A]

Nice. And also like, you're junior, so you do it. I'm like, but you guys are senior, so you might be a little better at it.

[B]

And it's like a whole person missing.

[A]

Yeah. Somebody's loved one.

[B]

You could treat it with a little more than that.

[A]

Respect, dignity, Any of the above. But luckily, Detective Hovine was a good detective. He drove to Irene's six story townhouse on the Upper east side and he started collecting information. I just like picturing a six story townhouse. All I can think of is Sonia Morgan stuff.

[B]

That's literally all I could Think of.

[A]

From Real Housewives of New York. But, like, to have to collect evidence from a home like that.

[B]

Yeah, I can't imagine. Oh, my God.

[A]

And there's all this, like, expensive.

[B]

I was gonna say in this, like, like antiques of living in there that you have to, like, search through, but.

[A]

You also have to be careful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a lot. So with Aricella as a guide, Hovajim searched the entire house and the entire property, but there was truly no sign of Irene anywhere. After searching the house, he spoke with the attendees of the party the previous evening, but didn't really find anything useful or suspicious there. And the same was true of Irene's staff. Everybody was accounted for, and nobody had any information that seemed useful in finding Irene. And none of them seemed suspicious in any way. So other than the missing homeowner, there was really just one thing that seemed out of the ordinary. Irene's current tenant, a man named Manny Guerin, also appeared to be missing.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

So about three weeks earlier, on June 14, Manny Guerin showed up at Irene's store. He said he was a businessman from Palm beach and he was looking to rent one of her large, vacant apartments upstairs.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He. I think earlier I said they were rooms. They were actually apartments.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Because picture, like a townhouse.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[A]

So Manny was charming, he was well spoken. Two things that Irene prized. Seems like he might be easy to.

[B]

Get along with a good tenant.

[A]

But the only weird thing was he didn't have any references or identification. What he did have, though, was $6,000 cash for the first month's rent and a promise that he would give her the references the following day. So all. It's a red flag for sure. Especially because we know.

[B]

Yeah, I was going to say it's from like, you know, the rear view mirror give you a red flag.

[A]

But. And I think, I mean, she was 84. She probably is. Like, I knew I can read people at this point, and, like, I'm getting good vibes. Yeah, he's a businessman. He's got the money.

[B]

Obviously, the vibes run off to her, so.

[A]

Right. So all things considered, she said she couldn't see the harm in letting him get settled and giving him a couple days to put together a list of references. So she let him move in that very day, but the problems began almost immediately.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Once he moved into the large first floor apartment, he became far less charming than he had been on that first day. When Irene or the staff members interacted with him at all, he seemed to avoid eye Contact. Which was obviously very strange.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he also would only give one word and often very blunt responses. He refused to allow the cleaning staff into his apartment.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Which. It's like, why you don't own it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're just. You're renting it. And anytime Irene would press him for those references, he'd come up with one excuse or another about why he didn't have them.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Equally troubling was the number of suspicious looking people who seemed to show up at his apartment at all hours, including an older woman who he, quote, always seemed to shield from the security camera when letting her in.

[B]

This would fuck me up. Yeah.

[A]

Irene wasn't the only person who found him suspicious. Her staff also found him strange and disconcerting. More than once, one of them noticed him staring at Irene's open office door or like, lurking around at the door. The Menji Mengistu, her butler, expressed his concern to many of Irene's close friends, including James Shenton. Shenton said Menji became suspicious when Guerin started getting pally and trying to turn him against Irene. Guerin asked why they were all silly enough to go on working there and said she was just a wealthy exploiter who didn't care about their future.

[B]

What?

[A]

And that they'd never end up with money or security. And he suggested they come work for him instead.

[B]

What the.

[A]

But you have to imagine. Get the out of here. Also, this woman has well established relationships with these people. They know who she is.

[B]

You think you're gonna turn them on her right now?

[A]

And she treats her staff like family.

[B]

That's the thing. Like, she puts her money where her mouth is.

[A]

Exactly. So eventually, several of the staff members, including Magistu, told Irene about their concerns. They were trying to have respect for her. Of course, this guy's talking behind your back, Right? Exactly. Like in the beginning. I think they were like, you know what you're doing? And like, we're not gonna sec. We're not gonna guess. Second guess you. But I think as time went on, they were like, Irene, are you sure about this? Like, we're getting weird vibes. And they had actually heard. They. I think they felt more confident sharing these concerns after they heard her arguing with him for a few day, a few days after he moved in.

[B]

Oh, damn. I thought you were going to say for a few days.

[A]

For a few days. I almost did.

[B]

I was like, the stamina that takes.

[A]

Yeah. They were arguing for days. So Irene's friend Bob Yakovic remembered Valerie and Menji both warned her not to trust Him. Down in the kitchen, Menji had drawn an Ethiopian cruciform symbol on top of the fridge as if to ward off evil, saying, these people mean, you know, good, they are bad, and you should be afraid of them.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Irene's response was that she was an old lady who had survived many dangers and she still wasn't afraid of anybody.

[B]

She's such a bad bitch.

[A]

She really is. But still, after just one week.

[B]

Wow. This all happened in one week.

[A]

This all happened in one week.

[B]

Holy shit.

[A]

Irene had had enough of Manny and she told him she wanted him out. He never got her the references. Yeah, he's trying to turn her staff against her. He's bringing all these weird people in. She's like, get out of here. The following day, she instructed her business manager to serve him with eviction papers before the month's lease was even up.

[B]

Good for her.

[A]

So the last time that James Shenton, a friend of Irene, saw her was June 27th, just one week before the 4th of July party. Irene might have talked a tough game, but she, and, you know, she was definitely a very self sufficient woman. But that day, her friend couldn't help but notice that she seemed particularly spooked by what was going on. Rather than sit inside to have coffee and talk like they always did, Irene insisted they go up to the rooftop garden. Because she was, quote, nervous of being overheard. She felt like she was being listened to.

[B]

Imagine having a rooftop garden to go to. Talk shit.

[A]

I would never stop talking shit on my rooftop.

[B]

That would be the only reason for my rooftop garden.

[A]

I would name it. I would name it something about talking. Talking.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like that would. Absolutely.

[A]

I would decorate it for optimal talking.

[B]

Yes, absolutely.

[A]

Comfy chairs.

[B]

Oh, hell yeah.

[A]

Mini fridge. Yep. Snacks.

[B]

Teacups.

[A]

Teacups spilling tea. Metaphorically and literally.

[B]

Those chairs are going to have big comfy pillows so you can sit cross legged.

[A]

Someday. Someday, let's get a roof garden where we can talk. Shake. Shaking. We're shaking across the shaking. We're doing that. So they went up to the roof garden to talk shit. And when she asked Irene what was wrong, she said, I can't tell you what's wrong. I don't want to put you in danger. You'll know more next week.

[B]

That would fuck me up.

[A]

I would be like, I'm gonna take you away from here.

[B]

Like, I'd be like, we gotta go somewhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't.

[A]

But obviously at the same time, Irene's telling you, like, I can handle it.

[B]

I'm good.

[A]

So there's nothing he could have done to get involved.

[B]

No, definitely not. I just wouldn't be able to let that go. I would think about it day and night. Yeah, day and night.

[A]

So the disappearance that happened to us earlier.

[B]

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

[A]

No, no, you're good.

[B]

Somebody gave us a very vague, like, oh, don't worry about it. This person said this. And we hung up the phone and we said, no.

[A]

We said, can't let it go.

[B]

We texted. We're like, tell me everything that person said. I don't care what it was. I need to know. I need to know.

[A]

And we convinced them to tell us what they said.

[B]

Yeah. Because I'll obsess over it forever.

[A]

And we won. Yeah. So the disappearance of Manny Guerin at the same time as Irene Silverman went missing was definitely suspicious.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But at the same time, Irene had insisted that she wanted him out, and her business manager had given him eviction papers. So to Detective Hovajim, he thought it was possible that maybe Manny had just simply left as he was instructed.

[B]

Yeah, it's like, it's. It's suspicious that they are gone at the same time, but, like, if you look at it piecemeal, you're like, well, his disappearance isn't crazy because of what you just said.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's just when you put it together that it gets, like, a little.

[A]

Well. And then as he was leaving the house, the detective, he noticed a spot of blood on the ground by the front entrance. And the case was immediately elevated to something far more concerning than just a missing person.

[B]

This is echoing the Nancy Guthrie case right now.

[A]

Okay, thank you.

[B]

In a way I can't handle.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's all I could think of while I was putting this together. That's so weird, isn't it?

[B]

And that's not on purpose either.

[A]

No, it's not on purpose at all.

[B]

Which also just a quick little thing. They still don't have, like, updates. They detained someone last night, but then let them go. Yeah. Like, what the is going on in that case?

[A]

I know. It's very strange.

[B]

I'll. I'll keep watching.

[A]

The doorbell footage is haunting.

[B]

Doorbell footage is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life.

[A]

I hate it so much.

[B]

It ruined everything about me. Yeah. To the core of my being, it's all.

[A]

I was watching it last night before I went to bed, and I was having weird dreams afterwards. I know.

[B]

Like, such a bad idea.

[A]

Truly the worst idea. But back to this. Things only got more alarming when one of the staff members opened Manny's room for the detective. And inside, Hovajim found a small number of personal items. But what stood out most were the garbage bags, the roll of duct tape, and the shower curtain rings on the shower rod. With lack of a shower curtain.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that points to something.

[A]

Sure does. So the next day, Hovajim and his partner, Joe Resnik, held a press conference to ask for the public's help in locating Irene Silverman and Manny Guerin. They didn't have a photo of Manny, but they did have a professional quality sketch of him that Irene had actually had done a few days before she disappeared. Wow. Which is just next level.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So they use that as a reference for the public Now. Detective Ed Murray of the NYPD's Fugitive Task Force happened to be watching that press conference that day. When he saw the sketch, he immediately recognized the man, not as Manny Guerin, but as Kenny Kimes.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

A car thief and con artist that he had taken into custody just a day earlier, a few hours after Irene Silverman had disappeared.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Chime makes your everyday spending work harder by delivering real rewards and financial progress. Forget overdraft fees, minimum balance fees, and monthly fees. That's one thing that I just absolutely love about Chime. Fees are the worst. And they get you every time. You'll think that you're saving all this money and then you look at what you spent in fees and you're like, that's literally my salary. What the heck? But not with Chime, because there's no overdraft fees. Like I said, minimum balance fees or monthly fees. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.commorbid that is chime.commorbid Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services the secured Chime Visa credit card and my pay line of credit provided by The Bank Corp. NA or Stride Bank NA. MyPay eligibility requirements apply and credit limit ranges $20 to 500 DOL. Optional services and products may have fees or charges. See chime.com feesinfo advertised annual percentage yield with Chime+ status only. Otherwise 1.00% APY applies. No minimum balance required. Chime card on time. Payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms. Your home should show off who you are. And Ashley has styles that balance timeless appeal and modern trends to bring your personal look home. I am obsessed with my house and it is like my cozy little oasis. So I want to be curled up on my beautiful couch that's cozy and chic just like an extension of my style. Who I am and then people know that when they walk in they say oh this is so ash. And Ashley offers well crafted affordable pieces for any style. Built to stand up to real life with great looks that are made to last. More than just eye catching design, get style with substance like stain resistance performance fabric options. They're incredibly durable and stain resistant with machine washable cushion covers. Honestly perfect for the holiday season and just life in general. Ashley.com is easy to shop with so many stylish options to choose from and the ordering process is smooth from start to finish. Plus Ashley provides fast, reliable white glove delivery to your door. Visit your local Ashley store or head to Ashley.com to find your site. Style this show is sponsored by Liquid iv. I had such a packed weekend the other like a couple weeks ago I had birthday parties, I had a couple lunches I had to go to, I had to take my grandparents to some appointments and by the end of that weekend I was like, I have a headache, I am tired, I can't even speak straight. Like what is going on all day? Events like big game days aren't just about the opening moments. They require superior hydration from start to finish. And your girl was definitely feeling dehydrated. But luckily all I had to do was reach for Liquid IV's hydration multiplier sugar free and I felt so much better and I probably should have done that before I saw the signs of dehydration. Just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone. It's powered by live Hydro Science, which is an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. I sometimes get a little bit sick of just drinking water alone and I feel, you know, like that it doesn't always hydrate me the best. So when I pour a little Liquid IV in there one, it tastes delicious and I can feel the difference of being fully hydrated. I have Liquid IV everywhere at this point because your girl never wants to get a headache or brain fog or nausea or, you know, irritability, any of those signs of dehydration. So I have it in my car, I have it in my purse. We have some at work. Liquid IV is absolutely everywhere. My favorite flavor right now is the sugar free raspberry lemonade. That will literally just be the best part of my day, the highlight of my day. So show up, start to finish with hydration from Liquid iv. Hydration multiplier. Sugar free, tear poor, live more. Go to Liquid IV.com to get 20% off your first order with code MORBID at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with Code MORBID@liquid IV.com. So, a few weeks before Kenny Kimes showed up at Irene's door posing as Manny Guerin, he and his mother, Santa, had fled Utah after writing a bad check to rent a Lincoln Town Car. The fraud was reported to the police, and when they were discovered to be in the New York area, the fugitive task force set up a sting operation to capture them. Okay, so from the moment that Santa and Kenny Kimes were arrested, Murray found the pair to be very odd. He said there was something that I just didn't think it was like a mother and a son. He said they were clearly related. But Santa seemed to be more like a criminal boss in the way that she talked to her son.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Than she did like a mother. And when they pulled both their criminal records, what came back was a startling trail of crimes and suspicions of things much more serious than check fraud.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

So, Santa Kimes. Let's get into who she was. Santa Kimes was born Sandra Louise Singers, I believe it is, in Oklahoma City on July 24, 1934. She was one of three children born to marry and Praying Singers. She was born during the peak of the Dust bowl in the part of the US that was most affected by the Dust Bowl. So they went on to move to LA to look for work. According to her oldest son, Kent Walker, Santa's oldest son, not long after arriving in la, Prem abandoned his family and left the children to wander the streets of LA day and night while their mother did whatever she could to support their family. Which sometimes included sex work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, it would be several decades before Kent learned that most of what he thought he knew about his mother's past was largely untrue. She had lied to him for most of his life.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

The father had not abandoned the family. He actually died of a heart attack when Santa. Santa was about 5 years old.

[B]

That's different.

[A]

Very different. And according to her sister Reba. Reba. Love that they had been a solid middle class family and nobody ever relied on sex work to support the family.

[B]

What the fuck?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's the weirdest shit I've ever heard. What?

[A]

Yeah. Considering her extensive history As a con artist and a consummate liar, it's really hard to determine what, what part of her life is true and what part is not true and what's a lie and what's not.

[B]

I know people who like do that same all the time. Like they just make up like entire backstories and it's like, why are you doing that?

[A]

Like, like write a book. I think it becomes, you can write.

[B]

A whole backstory for a character in a book.

[A]

You can.

[B]

Won't affect anyone.

[A]

I think it becomes like compulsive at a certain point. And then I do pathological and I do believe that there are people who believe, they start to believe the falsehoods that they make up. I don't know if she's one of.

[B]

Them, but I don't know what the difference between like pathological and compulsive would be because like a compulsive liar and a pathological. My ex boyfriend told me once because he said he was one.

[A]

I think a compulsive liar.

[B]

He told me one.

[A]

A pathological liar lies because they can't help it. A compulsive liar lies to get out of trouble.

[B]

One of them is like, you lie when you don't have to. And I'm not kidding you, my ex boyfriend, like he was very matter of fact when he would get caught doing.

[A]

Things because you called him a pathological liar.

[B]

Because I said you're, you're a fucking pathological liar. And he said I'm not actually. Because pathological liars lie when they don't have to. And he always lied when he had to.

[A]

He felt. Well, actually he was a pathological liar. He just wasn't a convulsive liar.

[B]

Yeah, he, I think he was lying when he said he wasn't a pathological liar.

[A]

That's a mind. So Pat, this is according to Google. Pathological liars lie manipulatively to gain control, which is what he did.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Attention or an advantage. There you go. Often with little remorse. Remorse to serve a selfish agenda.

[B]

Oh yeah, he's a pathological liar. Yeah, he was wrong.

[A]

Conversely, compulsive liars lie habitually as an automatic uncontrollable urge to cope with anxiety or stress, often about small mundane matters.

[B]

Without a clear motive. Maybe that, maybe I had it wrong though. Maybe it was like flipped around that compulsive liars lie technically when they don't have to.

[A]

But pathological liars, pathological lying is more calculated. Compulsive lying is more impulse driven.

[B]

That makes sense.

[A]

Yeah, it sounds like she could have been a pathological liar. I would say.

[B]

Yeah, she kind of sounds like she was pathological.

[A]

Yeah. But then I don't know the difference, and I don't think there is a difference. But I wonder what kind of liars start to believe their own lies. If there's like a word for that. Yeah.

[B]

Because that's just.

[A]

That just becomes like a mental health.

[B]

But I wonder if that's just in general. Like, if you lie enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I do believe that that's a thing. Because, like, if you lie enough, you begin to believe what you're lying about because you're kind of just be like, well, this is real.

[A]

It's like how you tell yourself. If you're like, you're like, oh, I'm so ugly. Your brain starts to believe it.

[B]

It's true. So it's like if you tell yourself anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Long enough, your brain will start to go into, like, survival mode of like, well, this is life now and, like reality now.

[A]

So I. Yeah, so that's lies.

[B]

Lies.

[A]

But it's hard to determine what part of Santa's life is true and what's lies. Most of it's lies, I think.

[B]

Lies.

[A]

Even her son Kent, who's her older son, by the way. It's a little confusing because there's Kent and then there's. Kenny.

[B]

I was going to say Kenny.

[A]

And then she also marries a man named Ken, which is very confusing.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, it's a lot. I. I think she also marries a man named Kent. No, she doesn't.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

There. There's Kent. I was Ken and Kenny.

[B]

That's like Ron Swanson when it's like my wife, my first Tammy, my second wife Tammy, and his mom, Tammy. Yes. My mother's name is Tamara. Yeah, we call her Tammy. I don't understand.

[A]

It's a lot. So even her son Kent acknowledges that his mother's backstory should be taken with a grain of salt. For sure. According to Santa's. Yeah, exactly. What'd you say?

[B]

Because lies.

[A]

Yeah, because lies. Pathological. So according to Santa's version of the story, when she was still very young, she ingratiated herself to a local theater owner who took pity on her and started buying her lunches whenever she came around. And this was Dottie Seligman. Dottie's brother in law, Edward Chambers, and his wife Mary had always wanted children, but had been unable to have any of their own through natural means. So Dottie arranged for the couple to adopt Santa, and within a few years of living In California, she had a new home and a new name. Sandy Chambers.

[B]

What?

[A]

I don't know if that's true. It might be. It might not be.

[B]

All right.

[A]

We don't really know. Cool. But according to those who did know Santa, during her early years, she was a liar and a thief all while she was still in high school.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

And her inclination to manipulate and con others only got worse the older she got.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

So by then, she had renamed herself Santa.

[B]

Santa.

[A]

She believed the name sounded more French and therefore more sophisticated. Educated, I mean.

[B]

Is she correct?

[A]

Yeah, actually, we were setting some. This just reminded me we're tangenting today.

[B]

Yeah, it's one of those days.

[A]

We were setting up an account the other day, Drew us, and the guy was like, oh. Should I add, I'm so sorry if I say this wrong, Ashley. And Drew was like, oh, it's just Ashley. And he goes, it's spelled so fancy.

[B]

It is. I was like, yeah. I mean, he's right. Is that.

[A]

I was like, you can just say Ashley. I love that a lot. So my name is French and more sophisticated. Ashley. Imagine if I just demanded everybody call me that because I thought it sounded more sophisticated. Well, Santa did. So in 1956, Santa reconnected with an old boyfriend, Edward Walker. They got married not long after, and one year later, her first son, Kent, with a hard T, Ken.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Was born. But his arrival did not do a lot to strengthen the couple's already failing marriage. At the time, Edward was a contractor who built houses in and around Sacramento. And it was a stable job with a pretty decent income. But it was far from the riches that Santa believe she deserved. She wanted MOA.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So in 1960, she set fire to one of her husband's properties.

[B]

Holy shit. She escalated fast. I said, so.

[A]

You know what she did about it? She collected an insurance payer.

[B]

I deserve more than commits arson.

[A]

Yeah, she committed lots of arson. Damn. So in the years that followed, several more of Edward's construction projects would, quote, burn down mysteriously.

[B]

I just feel bad for Edward.

[A]

I do, too. That's his hard work. Yeah, he's doing, like. And all the people that had to build all of that and put in hours and hours and days of work.

[B]

Burning them down to get you.

[A]

Yeah, she sucks. So in 1961, she was arrested and convicted not for arson, but for shoplifting. Oh, Sacramento. Yes. And after that, it kind of seems like her marriage disintegrated. She and Edward were living apart by then. They got back together every now and again and talked of reconciling permanently. But by 1969, they finally gave up and officially divorced. Now single, Santa left Sacramento ready to mingle. Ready to mingle. And she wanted to mingle in the decidedly more glamorous Palm Springs.

[B]

Oh, my.

[A]

And she took her son Kent with her. It was there that she met Ken.

[B]

Oh, okay, so not Ken.

[A]

She met Ken.

[B]

Times.

[A]

It's a lot. Yeah. Ken was a wealthy motel developer who was nearly 20 years her senior.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

He didn't know it at the time, but their meeting had not, in fact, been by chance at all.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Santa had read about him in his recent divorce and a magazine article which also referenced his net worth.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So seeing him in the life of luxury that she believed she was entitled to, she orchestrated their meeting, and they were dating in no time.

[B]

That's confidence, though.

[A]

It's called.

[B]

Man, I will give her that.

[A]

Look it up.

[B]

She's like. I love that. She was just like, I can snag him.

[A]

And she did.

[B]

Good for you on that front.

[A]

On that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Period. Just that a few Years later, in 1975, their son Kenny was born.

[B]

And he's a Ken. Kenny's Kent.

[A]

So first came Kent, then came Ken, then came Kenny. Okay, so Kenny is Ken Jr. Yeah.

[B]

That's the Kenny. That was Manny.

[A]

Exactly. You're following.

[B]

Following.

[A]

You're following. Get your red string out, everybody. So Kenny was born in 1975, and six years after that, Santa and Ken officially got married in Nevada.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I said it right.

[B]

You did say it right.

[A]

I know. And I don't even say it like that. I did that for you guys.

[B]

Oh, I say it wrong. I was just about to. I was like, maybe I say it right. And then I said, no, no, I don't. I think Nevada.

[A]

We say it wrong. Sorry. But I said it right for the listener.

[B]

That's really nice of you.

[A]

You're welcome. So by all accounts, there never seemed to be a moment in Santa's life where she wasn't scheming, conning, ripping somebody off.

[B]

Aren't you tired?

[A]

No, she. I think people like that thrive. They have to, because it's exhilarating to them, I think.

[B]

Yeah. I think they're those kind of people that live. Live for drama.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They live on the lifeblood. It drains me.

[A]

I was just gonna say it drains the. Out of me. So even while she was living well off of Ken's millions, it seems like she just couldn't help but commit crime. If, like I just said, only for the thrill, she's loved to crime. She Loves criming. Loves criming. Her last name is literally Kimes, but it should be crimes, not crimes. So in the winter of 1980, just a few months before she got married to Kenny, Santa was at the Town and Country Lounge in the Mayflower hotel in Washington, D.C. just like a little lounge area where she was drinking. Drinking and eating, maybe. Well, probably not. When it looks like she was getting ready to leave, though, one of the patrons, Rena Beachy. Rina Beachy. Sounds like a nice lady.

[B]

And you know what? She is. In a lounge.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Rena Beachy. Yes, absolutely. Well, Rina Beachy watched with astonishment as Santa threw her own mink coat over the coat of another woman who wasn't paying attention. And then Santa casually stood up, put both coats on, and walked out of the restaurant. So her first son, Kent confirmed later that's who she was.

[B]

That is who she was. I love that.

[A]

Kent is just like, yeah.

[B]

He's like, I don't know. She just did that. It reminds me of again, a quick little tangent.

[A]

But we are tangenty today.

[B]

But it's. I know I am. Go watch on Netflix. Man on the Inside. It's Ted Danson. Yeah, real funny. Two seasons, I think. Main coast, very funny. They also have like a con woman in the second season that is reminding me very much of this. Like, would pull something off. Really?

[A]

Yeah. I gotta watch that. You've been telling me that it's one.

[B]

Of those shows that is delightful. Yeah. Like I'm telling you, if you need a little. We could all use a little pick me up right now. A little fluffiness, a little whimsy. Man on the Inside with Ted Danson. I fucking love Ted Danson. Don't tell me anything about Ted Danson. I just love him.

[A]

Oh, my God. Don't. Just don't, don't.

[B]

I don't want to know anything. To me, he's awesome and it's a great show. So I highly recommend it. If you need, like a little thing. This just reminded me of it because it's very. Con artist.

[A]

I'm gonna watch that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So back to this. It didn't take long for the D.C. police to catch up with Santa. And she was charged with grand larceny because mink coats are very expensive.

[B]

Yeah, that's a big deal.

[A]

But when the trial day came, she was just nowhere to be found.

[B]

Yeah. She said, that's not for me. She said, no, no, that wasn't part of it.

[A]

No, she's. She's a lounge girl. She's Not a trial girl. So the prosecutor proceeded with the case anyway, trying her in absentia, and she was found guilty.

[B]

Oops.

[A]

Which also. It doesn't happen that often that they try you in absentia. Yeah. Which is a fun thing to say. That is really Absentia fun.

[B]

I do like that.

[A]

So she later appealed the conviction, arguing that her constitutional rights were violated when they tried her in absentia. But the lower court's conviction was upheld. They said, you know, they said, you. They said, you larcenied. You did grandly. You larcenied a lot. So this was the first of many times that she would be caught committing crimes. But she always seemed to have a way of getting out of taking responsibility until the slavery charge came in 1985.

[B]

What?

[A]

Yeah. What? She was charged with slavery.

[B]

What?

[A]

In 1985?

[B]

I.

[A]

The year of Big Red.

[B]

There's no. That is the year of me. But, my goodness, I haven't. I don't know what the fuck is happening in this case. I've never heard of it in my entire life.

[A]

It goes crazy.

[B]

I did not look at this beforehand. That just took me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That just took me out.

[A]

I figured I would kind of just deliver it to you in a normal.

[B]

Tone, laid down that charge.

[A]

Really get your reaction. What the fuck? Yeah.

[B]

Oh, let's tell me about this.

[A]

Jesus. I will. So in the mid-1980s, Santa and Ken, they were living a good life in a large house in La Jolla, California. They had a staff of housekeepers to handle most of the responsibilities around the home. At first, Santa treated the house housekeeping staff very well. Kind of almost like family. Almost like what we were saying with Irene earlier.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the difference was, as soon as they challenged Santa in any way, they found themselves on her bad side.

[B]

Ew.

[A]

Kent said, it is just like everything else in her life. Elevated. Elevated, Elevated. And so the maids then became the enemy in the house.

[B]

Oh, she's such an asshole.

[A]

She sucks.

[B]

That's so gross.

[A]

So now no longer interested in treating them well, Santa became abusive towards the housekeepers. So singling out one housekeeper who often traveled with them from California to their house in Hawaii. According to the criminal complaint, Santa was physically and verbally abusive towards this woman who alleged that Santa and Ken locked her in her room, and she alleged, quote, she was not allowed to use a telephone or write to anyone and was never paid for her services. They literally forced her to work for them, locked her up when she wasn't working, and let her out to work. That's it. And treated her horribly. And Physically abused her as well.

[B]

What a pair of monsters.

[A]

Yes. So as a result, Santa and her husband were charged with violating federal peonage, which is forced labor and slavery laws.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And they were indicted.

[B]

She's a real piece of.

[A]

She's a big old piece of.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

So the indictments were the first charges of slavery to be pursued in the United States for many, many, many, many, many years. Yeah, I bet. And the evidence was damning. Holy. Ken accepted a plea deal and he was given a short, short prison sentence and a large fine dick. But Santa, on the other hand, flatly rejected the accusation and actually tried to make herself the victim in all of it.

[B]

Oh, shut the up.

[A]

She said she took the case to trial, which is just insane. Like, I don't know why you would ever do that. You're literally accused of slavery. Yeah. And she insisted that she was being framed. The jury did not buy that. And she was ultimately found guilty, but only spent three. Three years in federal prison.

[B]

Three years for a slavery charge.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Next level.

[B]

We're killing it.

[A]

We're a broken system.

[B]

We're really killing it.

[A]

We're a broken system.

[B]

We remain killing it. Yeah.

[A]

Holy. So the conviction and the jail sentence you would think would be a wakeup call for Santa. Probably not setting her on a path toward a more responsible, maybe law abiding life.

[B]

Nah, she's a total bitch.

[A]

Yeah. As anybody could have guessed, it didn't seem like that was the life she wanted. And she was a. Actually, after being released from jail in the late 1980s, it seemed that not only did she not have any intention to stop committing crimes, but she actually had bigger and more elaborate schemes in mind.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

She was like, man, I only got three years for slavery, so I feel like I could around some more. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, that'll make you think you're invincible, I guess. Yeah.

[A]

So after returning to their house in my birthplace, Honolulu.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

In 1989, things went back to normal for a little bit. But it wasn't long before Santa got back to her old ways. The Kimes family, including Kent, were all living in Las Vegas when they got a call from John, who was the caretaker of the house in Hawaii. According to John, the house had caught fire and was reduced to ashes in a surprisingly short amount of time.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Kent said her oldest son said, I knew what happened. I didn't know the specifics, but there was no doubt in my mind.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

In fact, when he heard about the news at the house, he started thinking back to his own father and all of those Times that Edward Walker's construction projects had burned in quote, unquote, mysterious circumstances.

[B]

He's like, huh?

[A]

He's like, that's weird. Fire seems to follow my mom wherever she goes. So a few weeks after the house burned down, Santa obviously filed an insurance claim. And she waited for her money to.

[B]

Come in, of course.

[A]

But by that time, the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, atf, had taken an interest in the case, and they started investigating what they believed to be arson. A short time later, Elmer holmgren, who was an unemployed lawyer and associate of Santa and Ken's, confessed to setting the fire.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

He never mentioned Santa or Ken in his confession, but many, many people suspected that Santa had somehow convinced him to set the fire. A month later, another fire occurred, this time in Elmer Holmgren's office, where he had papers stored that could implicate Santa in the arson.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Elmer still hadn't identified Santa as the one who paid him to burn the house, but she assumed that it was only a matter of time before he did. And that type of accusation obviously would have landed her back in jail, of course. Where she belongs. Where she belongs. But she's not gonna have that.

[B]

No, of course not.

[A]

And just as she expected he would. Elmer Holmgren did make a drunken confession to a friend in early 91 that it was he who had burned the house in Hawaii, but that he had done it for $3,000 given to him by Santa Kimes. But what he probably didn't expect was for his friend to immediately relay that information to ATF agents working on the case. And in exchange for a reduced sentence, he agreed to wear a wire and try to get Santa to confess to their arrangement.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

But the most federal agents ever got was a short message from Elmer, who told them that the plan would have to be put on hold. He couldn't handle it. Several months later, in August, Elmer told his family he was going on vacation to Costa Rica While with Santa and Ken Kimes. And that.

[B]

Don't do that.

[A]

That was the last time anybody ever saw him alive again.

[B]

No. Yeah.

[A]

According to Kent Walker, during a drunken fight with Kenny, his younger brother Santa, and himself, his brother admitted that their mother had murdered Elmer Holmgren. Holy. Kenny. Al allegedly shouted, she killed that guy. She was sitting in the back seat, and she hit him with a hammer.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[A]

Several Years later, in 2000, Kenny would repeat that confession, this time to federal authorities, but no charges were ever brought against Santa or Kenny, and Elmer's body has never been found. Holy. Yeah, that's diabolical yeah. So it's that magical time of the year. Cold nights, cozy sweaters, the annual existential spiral about all of the things that you're gonna fix in January. Listen, while you're planning to drink more water, you know, like stop doom scrolling whatever it is you might stop. Maybe your dog deserves a little glow up too, huh? That's where Ollie comes in. It's fresh human grade dog food made with real ingredients, slow cooked for max nutrition and tailored to your pup's specific needs. We're talking legit meals with ingredients that you can actually pronounce. And yeah, even those picky little goblins will go absolutely feral for Ollie. We tried this with Dolores and she is obsessed with it and she, she is such a picky eater, sometimes she won't even eat her food. Like even if I sprinkle cheese on it. Ollie did the trick. Your dog's well being starts with their food and that's why Ollie delivers fresh human grade food that your dog will love. Head to ollie.commorbid and use code morbid to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. They even offer a happiness guarantee on the first box so if you're not totally satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O l l I e.com morbid and enter code morbid to get 60% off your first box. Okay, everybody knows and loves ice cream, but have you tried my mochi ice cream? It is a game changer and seriously, the refreshing, joyfully chill sensation of biting into my mochi ice cream, I'm picturing it right now. It's something you won't forget. My mochi is creamy premium ice cream wrapped in a sweet chewy dough. It comes in delicious flavors like strawberry, mango, cookies and cream. My homegirl, Deb Dub found Dubai chocolate flavor at the grocery store the other day and shout out to her. She texted me right away. So I'm going to be on my way to the grocery store tonight to go get that. Plus, my mochi is only around 70 calories per piece and it's gluten free. It also comes in a box with six individual snacks, making it easy to share. The first time I tried it, I said I think I've died and gone to heaven. This is the most delicious thing that I have ever eaten. I literally take it right out of the freezer and I chomp right into it. I know some people leave it on the counter to have it soft. No, just take it right out. If I had to describe it in Three words. I would say decadent, delicious, and luxurious. My favorite flavor right now is cookies and cream. But, you know, I'm going to go try that Dubai chocolate. Feel joyfully chill this winter with every bite of my mochi ice cream. Look for the purple box of my mochi ice cream in the freezer aisle of your local grocery store. Remember when doing your taxes meant handing over a pile of papers and then just wondering? Now, with TurboTax full service, it's so much easier. They have local experts near you who do your taxes, getting you every deduction while you go on about your day. And they keep you updated in the app so you're never left wondering. Through. February 28th, hand off your taxes to an expert in person or online for $150. All in. If a Turbo tax expert didn't file for you Last year, visit turbotax.com local to book an appointment. So in the years that followed, Santa and Ken, her. Ken Senior, the husband, seemed to be laying low and avoiding the attention of law enforcement somehow. But then, out of the blue, in 1994, poor Kent got a call from his mother. Who was in that. About Kent.

[B]

I do, too.

[A]

But there's good news.

[B]

Can I feel bad about Kent?

[A]

Yes. Okay. You could totally feel bad.

[B]

I've been wanting to say that, but I was like, what if he's terrible?

[A]

No, he's great.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

As far as I. Well, I don't actually know anything about him, but from what I've seen, he's great. And there's, like, a nice little sprinkle in here that I'm glad he. Okay, we'll get there. So but before that, in 1994, he gets this call from his mom. She's hysterical, and she keeps repeating over and over, they won't fix him. And then she just hung up. That's it. Which is like, maybe relay information.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ken had no idea what she was talking about, but eventually he learned that his mother was referring to Ken Sr. Who had just died from a brain aneurysm.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

Yeah. I would feel a little bit worse if he wasn't guilty of slavery.

[B]

If he wasn't charged with slavery.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Charged and convicted.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing.

[A]

So Ken's death sent Santa into a downward spiral, if she wasn't already in one. And that caused her to become more erratic than ever. Not only because her husband and literal partner in crime was gone, but also because when he died, he left her with nothing.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He left her with nothing.

[B]

I mean, if you're Both like that. How are you expecting that you have an actual partner?

[A]

Well.

[B]

And that person's whole life is lying.

[A]

And conning exactly like yours.

[B]

They're gonna lion con you too.

[A]

Well, and the thing was, it wasn't even necessarily a lion con situation. They'd been together for 20 years and by that point they'd blown through almost everything he had.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Aside from a few non liquid assets that weren't easy to access.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So she didn't have any accounts of her own at that time. So she really had nothing. So her frantic desperation started to scare the out of Kent, her oldest son. And he eventually made the decision to step away from his family and build a healthier life for himself. Kent. Yeah.

[B]

Kent.

[A]

Yeah. Kent.

[B]

Yeah. I'm proud of you, Kent.

[A]

Yeah, I am too.

[B]

You know what? I know nothing about you, but I'm.

[A]

Proud of you for that.

[B]

But I'm very proud of you for that. And I hope you built a very healthy life for yourself and you're happy and thriving.

[A]

And it's not easy to walk away from people.

[B]

No.

[A]

Like it's really not. But that's necessary sometimes.

[B]

That's healthy and. Well, that's healthness and wellness.

[A]

It is, you know, it's healthy and wealthy, I thought is what you were gonna say.

[B]

I was going to say that it.

[A]

Is healthy and wealthy.

[B]

Good job, Kent. I'm very proud of him. What a boundary.

[A]

Yeah. We love a boundary king. And in the 90s, establishing a boundary. Tough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've never heard of it. Tough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or even in the early alts.

[B]

No.

[A]

So of course, with Ken Kimes dead and Kent having become estranged from his mother and his brother, that left Kenny alone to deal with his dangerous and increasingly desperate mother, who proved that she would stop at nothing to get what she wanted over the next two years. Over the course of the next two years, Santa combed all of Ken's accounts looking for whatever money was left after his death. In September of 1996, Santa and Kenny so that her son were in the Bahamas, staying at the house that they owned in Nassau. And they had dinner with 48 year old Saeed Bilal Ahmed. I looked up that pronunciation. I so hope I'm saying it correctly. That's what the Internet told me to say. Saeed was an executive at the First Cayman bank where Ken had stashed some of his money. Santa invited Ahmed to dinner in the hopes that she could convince him to release $850,000 that was in Ken's area account to her. Despite the fact that she was not a signatory on the account.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Yeah. So in the weeks leading up to that night, she had sent several faxes and other documents over to the bank with Ken's forge signature, demanding that the money be sent to various American addresses. But all of the requests were obviously unsuccessful because they were like, that man is dead.

[B]

And he didn't sign.

[A]

We can't do that. Now, in addition to his executive role at the bank, Ahmed was also the bank's auditor. So he would have been made aware of any potential fraud or attempts at fraud. So obviously, he suspected Santa Kimes of trying to fraudulent. Fraudulently access the money in the account.

[B]

He's like, this is kind of my thing.

[A]

And he's like, yeah, I guess I'll have dinner with you. But, like, I know what you're up to.

[B]

I know you're a fraudster.

[A]

Yeah. And those suspicions of fraud would have been confirmed quickly once the bank learned that Ken Kimes, like I just said, was in fact, dead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On the night of September 4th, Santa and Kenny met with Ahmed for dinner at the Androsia, which is a restaurant at Nassau. Whatever happened during that dinner is unknown, but the staff at the restaurant recalled seeing Santa and Kenny leave with their dinner guest a little after 10pm and Saeed Bilal Ahmed was never seen again.

[B]

What the. This is crazy.

[A]

It's diabolical. I had no idea how layered this was. A few days later, police in the Bahamas opened an investigation into Ahmed's disappearance. So not only were the mother and son the last people to be seen with the missing man, but a hotel employee at the Radisson where Ahmed had been staying reported two people matching the Kaimes description attempting to get access to Ahmed's room a few days before he disappeared.

[B]

They were planning this like, well ahead of time.

[A]

Malice aforethought, my darling?

[B]

Yeah, very much.

[A]

Despite their strong suspicions that they were responsible for Ahmed's disappearance, they weren't ever able to come up with anything strong enough to make an arrest. Damn. And it was only after Santa and Kenny were arrested on those several other crimes and facing the death penalty, that Kenny Kimes confessed that he had drugged Ahmed that night, drowned him in the bathtub, and dumped his body in the ocean, all at Santa's request.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

And it's like, that's not going to get you the money either, so what's the point?

[B]

What the.

[A]

You're just diabolical.

[B]

You're just evil.

[A]

So after the murder of Saeed Bilal Ahmed, Santa spent months trying to fraudulently access her husband's accounts, demanding that the money be sent to some random address in the US but obviously, she was unsuccessful, because people are smarter than that. According to Kent Walker, after Ahmed disappeared, the First Cayman bank was being liquidated, he said, in part because of Ahmed's disappearance, because he was such a big part of the bank auditor. Yeah. That meant that by killing Saeed Bilal Ahmed, Santa had made the goal of getting Ken's money impossible. She herself.

[B]

And honestly, I hope that that was his. That's his, like, final.

[A]

You. Yeah.

[B]

And I'm glad, truly.

[A]

And I hope she thought of that every day for the rest of her life. So by the fall of 1997, Santa and Kenny were basically broke, living in a rundown one bedroom apartment in Fort Lauderdale. Oops. And that's when she came up with her latest scheme. Several years earlier, before Ken's death, Santa and Ken had transferred one of their properties to their friend Dave Kasdan in order to hide it from federal authorities. Ken and Kasdan had been friends since the 70s, and he had always been willing to help whenever they found themselves in a jam. He was a nice enough guy. Yeah. In 98, Santa remembered that. Remembered that house, which. Imagine just having a home that you forgot about. She's like, we're really in a pinch. What do we do? What do we. Oh, I have that house. I've got that house. So she came up with a scheme to get some quick cash after convincing a notary to forge Kasdan's signature on a loan document, which. Like, who are you, brother?

[B]

Seriously?

[A]

She took out a loan for $280,000 in Dave Kasdan's name, using the house that they transferred as collateral.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

The loan went through, and Santa got the money. But in late January, Dave Kasdan also learned of the scheme when he got a notice in the mail informing him that he'd taken out a second mortgage on a home he didn't even think he still owned.

[B]

Wow. Yeah.

[A]

This is some rich people shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when Kasdan called the bank to report the fraud, it was already too late. Santa had already cashed the check and moved the funds into an offshore bank account.

[B]

I'm exhausted just listening to this. I don't know how people live like this.

[A]

I don't either.

[B]

I really don't.

[A]

I also don't know how people keep.

[B]

Track of all this sht because I'm allergic to abs admin, so I can't imagine this.

[A]

I don't even like the admin that I have to Do. Yeah.

[B]

This is so much admin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's just a lot of. It's a lot of talking to people. It's a lot of convincing people. It's a lot of, like, oh, yeah, I'm tired.

[A]

Pretty terrible. Pretty terrible. So it turned out that the loan scheme was just the first step in Santa's process.

[B]

Lord.

[A]

A few weeks later, Dave Kasdan got a call informing him that his home in Las Vegas had burned down.

[B]

My goodness, the arson.

[A]

The arson is everywhere. In the days that followed, it was discovered that Santa had taken out an insurance claim on that house. And by the time Kasdan learned all the details, she'd already made off with the money.

[B]

My. She's.

[A]

She's diabolical.

[B]

She's lava.

[A]

So when Dave Kazdan started making reports to the authorities about who he thought was responsible for all the fraud, he started getting letters and faxes from Santa. In a fax from late February 1998, she wrote, I'll give you five days to stop all these lies. You know, you endorse the loan. Why are you doing this? Wow. So she's literally, like, gaslighting. Gaslighting him. She thought that establishing a paper trail would help support her claim that she had nothing to do with the fraud and she was being framed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But at some point, she obviously realized that wasn't going to work, and she came up with another plan. Two weeks after her last fax to Dave Kasdan, his body was discovered in a dumpster at the Los Angeles International Airport. He'd been shot in the back of the head.

[B]

This lady needs to be stopped.

[A]

She sure does. The coroner quickly identified him and made a. A homicide investigation was opened, and that was led by LAPD Detective Bill Cox. It didn't take long for Cox and his partner to learn that Kasdan had recently been the victim of financial fraud. And according to his daughter, somebody had been harassing him in the weeks leading up to his death. The daughter told them that her father was being harassed by Santa Kimes, and she suspected that Kimes had something to do with. With the death. So the detectives went to speak with Santa, but they missed her by just a few hours. Oh, of course, by that time, she and Kenny had fled to Los Angeles in that Lincoln Town Car that they picked up in Utah several weeks earlier. Remember paying with a bad check?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So, for months, detectives in LA dug into Santa Kaim's criminal history and reached out to any of her known contacts in the hope that somebody might know where she had Gone, but they just kept coming up empty. Then, in July, when Irene disappeared, Detective Bill Cox got a call from a detective in New York informing him that Santa had been arrested there, and she and her son were suspected of murdering Irene Silverman. So we're way. We went on a big old roundabout, and we're all the way back.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So when Santa and Kenny were arrested outside the Hilton Hotel in Manhattan, it had been on suspicion of check fraud in Utah. But what investigators found in their hotel room implied that something much larger was going on. In a bag, detectives found Irene Silverman's house keys, her passport, her checkbook, her Social Security card, and countless other personal documents. When detectives found the Lincoln Town Car two days earlier, they also found more damning evidence. They found several automatic pistols and ammunition, 10 different wigs, the sedative flunitrazepam, and boxes of documents related to their business associates, including Elmer Holmgren, Dave Kasdan, and Saeed Bilal Ahmed. They also.

[B]

Wild.

[A]

That's not even it. They also discovered eight microcassettes of recordings of telephone conversations between Irene and a woman who would eventually be identified as Santa Kimes.

[B]

Holy shit.

[A]

So they literally just had, like. Like the smoking gun, Basically everything. In one of the conversations, Santa posed as a manager of a Las Vegas casino and was trying to persuade Irene to share her Social Security number in order for the casino to finalize details of a free trip that she had won.

[B]

I.

[A]

The Jen Shaw of it all.

[B]

I just can't. I can't imagine living life like this. I don't understand.

[A]

And targeting an elderly woman, an elderly socialite. Like, what the is wrong with you? I mean, she's already been convicted of slavery, so we know that there's a lot wrong with her.

[B]

There's nothing inside of her.

[A]

So in the months that followed their arrest, investigators worked tirelessly to rebuild Santa's extensive criminal history. Which must have been exhausting. Yeah, because that included, at that point, arson, fraud, slavery, at least three suspected murders. And the murders stretched across the US and into the Caribbean.

[B]

My God.

[A]

They also started digging into Kenny's history, and. And in doing that, they found that he was a young man who, from a very early age, had been shaped and molded into exactly what his mom wanted him to be.

[B]

So disgusting.

[A]

An accomplice, not a son. In addition to the crimes that he was believed to have committed with his mom, he'd also been arrested for domestic violence and assault. He had beat up one of his former girlfriends and another student when he was briefly in college.

[B]

Ooh, disgusting.

[A]

Yeah, he's gross. Disgusting, Literally. So the case of Irene Silverman and Santa and Kenny Kimes quickly became a national sensation. Of course, the press dug up Santa's old nickname, which was the dragon lady.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because of her association with arson, of course. But most were more fond of the new moniker that they'd given the pair, Mommy and Clyde.

[B]

Mommy and Clyde is the perfect way to describe this.

[A]

It's also diabolical.

[B]

Very diabolical.

[A]

When I first read that, though, I was in. Yeah, that makes you just want to know everything.

[B]

What?

[A]

Yeah, I love a moniker. Yeah. So the first big break in the case came in late July when investigators found a notarized deed in Santa's possession, which seemed to indicate that Irene transferred ownership of her townhouse to Santa and Kenny at a value of $390,000. Oh, yeah. I bet that was less than 10% of its value.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

No. Good try. Despite the compelling evidence, though, Santa and Kenny both maintained they had nothing to do with Irene's disappearance. Eli, we just have her checkbook, her passport, her Social Security card, recordings of.

[B]

Us trying to fraud her.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's just we were doing that, but we didn't kill her.

[B]

Yeah, I don't even know her.

[A]

Oh, okay. For the prosecutors, the biggest problem wasn't that they maintained their innocence. It was the fact that they still hadn't found Irene Silverman. They didn't have a body, and at that time, she obviously was assumed to be dead. Despite the lack of a body, though, district attorney Robert Morgan Thaus decided to move forward with the case. And In December of 1998, Santa and Kenny Kimes were indicted for murder on purely circumstantial evidence. Morgan Thau said the mere fact you don't have a body doesn't give somebody a walk. All the facts show that the murder was committed. Yeah, which is very true.

[B]

Where is she?

[A]

So when the trial finally arrived in the spring of 2000, it was exactly as sensational and chaotic as everybody expected. Before both sides had even selected the jury, Santa had to be ordered by the judge to stop speaking to the media after she continuously reached out to members of the press to give interviews that checks. She was also caught passing a note to New York Times journalist David Rodencourt. And the note said, the deed is real. The notary is liable and lying. They know where she is.

[B]

Girl, you're doing the most.

[A]

Yeah. And then that. That wasn't even her doing the most. That was just the beginning of her crazy ass behavior.

[B]

The most.

[A]

In late April, after the Judge repeatedly told her lawyer to stop a certain line of questioning. Santa became irate and started yelling at the judge, your honor, how can we have fairness? And then she went on to compare the trial to the Salem witch trials and then told the judge that she was, quote, murdering the constitution. Shut the up. This bitch went nuts.

[B]

I hope someone just said, shut the up.

[A]

Can you imagine being accused of murdering the constitution? You know what? Get a life. Get a life.

[B]

Get a life.

[A]

So throughout the trial, the prosecutor called over a hundred witnesses, all of whom spoke to the criminality of Santa and Kenny.

[B]

Mommy and Clyde.

[A]

Mommy and Clyde. And presented a ton of evidence that established a direct connection to Irene Silverman. The only thing that they couldn't get around was the fact that there still was no body and technically no conclusive proof of murder. But in his closing statement, defense attorney Michael Hardy reminded the jury of that very thing. He said, there's no body, no witnesses. There's no proof of any murder at all.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So on May 16, the jury retired for deliberation, and when they returned two days later, they found both defendants guilty.

[B]

Good. I was going to say, if they get off, I'm going to riot in the streets. Yeah.

[A]

No. They were both found guilty, not just of the murder of Irene Silverman, but on over a hundred other charges related to fraud, larceny, and kidnapping, among others. Yeah. That. Next month, they went before a judge to be sentenced, and the judge referred to Santa as a sociopath of unremitting malevolence.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And her son is a vacuous dupe who had evolved into a remorseless predator under his mother's influence.

[B]

I have never heard a better. Better description of two people in my entire life.

[A]

Vacuous dupe goes crazy.

[B]

No notes.

[A]

Obsessed.

[B]

No notes.

[A]

You are a sociopath of unremitting malevolence.

[B]

And a vacuous dupe. And a remorseless predator obsessed. Just chef's kiss. Yeah.

[A]

When asked if they had anything to say on their own behalf, Santa spoke up for the both of them. And she said all of our precious civil and constitutional rights were trampled. Much like the witch hunts of old south Salem.

[B]

You shut your mouth.

[A]

Police planted and planted and planted evidence to fool the jury. No one has been told the truth in this case.

[B]

You didn't. That's not even a good. Like, no correlation.

[A]

There's. What are you talking about, police?

[B]

Like, what are you talking.

[A]

You have nothing to do with the Salem witch trial.

[B]

Shut up. Shut up.

[A]

So when basically the judge felt the same way, and they were like, okay, are you done speaking? And she was like, I'm all done. And he said, okay, cool. I. Or she said, I sentence you to 120 years in prison.

[B]

Hell yeah.

[A]

And Kenny was sentenced to 126 years in prison.

[B]

That's awesome. Yeah, I just love how it's like six more years.

[A]

He was like, you done here? You done here? Okay. So in the wake of their sentencing, Santa and Kenny, of course, did not just fade into obscurity.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Still facing potential murder charges in California, Nevada and Nassau, Kenny felt that it was his duty to make sure his mommy was spared for the wor from the worst of the consequences.

[B]

Dude.

[A]

So in October, during an interview with Court Court TV reporter Maria Zone, Kenny took her hostage by holding a ballpoint pen to her throat.

[B]

What?

[A]

While holding her hostage, he demanded his mother not be extradited to Los Angeles, where they both faced the death penalty for the murder of Dave Kasdan. Fortunately, officers were able to create a distraction that allowed them to safely remove Maria's own from the room. And Kenny's attempts to sail to save his mommy filled.

[B]

He is so pathetic.

[A]

It's really pathetic.

[B]

Like, ew, Yucky.

[A]

A few months later, both Santa and Kenny were extradited to Los Angeles and charged with Dave Kasdan's murder. Now facing the death penalty, Kenny accepted a plea deal from the prosecutor where he would confess to the murders in exchange for taking both death penalty sentences off the table.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

After pleading guilty, he confessed to the murders of Saeed Bilal Ahmed, David Kasdan and Irene Silverman. And as part of the deal, he was required to detail all of the crimes for investigators. So according to Kenny, after they failed to get Irene's money through deception, they resorted to violence. On the afternoon of July 5, they went to the townhouse where he and Santa tased Irene, an 84 year old woman. And then Kenny strangled her.

[B]

Oh, poor Irene.

[A]

Once she was dead, they put her body in several garbage bags and put her in a dumpster in Hoboken, New Jersey. To this day, her remains have never been found. Wow. And I just want everybody to remember how I described Irene for you. Like the lengths that she went to to make other people feel special and all of the connections that that woman had. Generous, she was, how generous, she was, how talented. And they wrapped her body up and threw it in a dumpster in Hoboken. Yeah, like, what the fuck is wrong with you? All for money. Yeah, that's it. Which meanwhile, if he had been nice to her and actually Ingratiated himself. He probably would have got money or something, anything. So in 2004, they were both found guilty of Dave Kasdan's murder. But no charges have ever been brought up in the other two cases. After their convictions, Senta returned to New York to continue serving her life sentence for the murder of Irene silverman. And on May 19, 20, 2014, she died of natural causes at Bedford Hills Correction Facility for women. She was 79.

[B]

It's pretty old.

[A]

I feel like that's kind of young to die of natural causes. 79 in prison, though. Yeah, in prison. That's true. Kenny Kimes remains incarcerated at the Richard J. Donovan Correctional Facility in San Diego, California. And that is the case of Mommy and Clyde. Wow. Jam packed.

[B]

That was a non stop thrill ride, wasn't it? That was. I'm shook.

[A]

It was insane.

[B]

And what kills me is, like, the amount of people that they just disposed.

[A]

Of like they were nothing when they.

[B]

Didn'T need them anymore or when they didn't give them what they wanted.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Like, that's so disgusting. It's such, like, predatory, inhuman behavior.

[A]

And obviously Kenny is a piece of shit. But it's really sad that he was just like he was molded to be what he was.

[B]

That's the thing that he was just like he didn't have a choice.

[A]

You feel bad for the child version of him.

[B]

And then he became an adult.

[A]

When you become an adult, you make your own choices. Exactly.

[B]

You don't choose as a child, but.

[A]

As an adult, you make a choice very much.

[B]

And he made a bad choice.

[A]

I think we need a fun fact.

[B]

Yeah, we do.

[A]

Do you want to hear the fun fact I found?

[B]

I really do.

[A]

The world's oldest dog lived to be 29 and a half years old.

[B]

I want to have that dog.

[A]

And their name was Bluey. Bluey. Bluey.

[B]

Oh, yep. Yeah. That is a fun.

[A]

Louie, the Australian cattle dog survived to the ripe old age of 29 and a half.

[B]

I want my dogs to live to 29.

[A]

Sydney, Blanche and Dolores will live to be a hundred.

[B]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I will take no further questions with that. We hope you keep listening and we.

[A]

Hope you keep it weird. And definitely so weird that you spend the rest of your life with your doll. Yeah. Because they're gonna live forever. Do it. Bye. Not so weird as Santa, though.

[B]

No.

[A]

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