Morbid Book Club: Victorian Psycho By Virginia Feito

Summary

Morbid Book Club: "Victorian Psycho" by Virginia Feito

Podcast: Morbid
Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Guest: Paul Tremblay (horror author)
Date: June 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special Morbid Book Club episode dives into Victorian Psycho by Virginia Feito, a wickedly dark and satirical historical horror novel making waves on BookTok and beyond. Hosts Ash and Alaina are joined by guest Paul Tremblay, acclaimed horror author (The Cabin at the End of the World, Head Full of Ghosts), to unpack Feito’s twisted, hilarious, and macabre take on Victorian society, explore the blurred lines of morality and narrative reliability, and to dig into horror’s cultural renaissance. The conversation is lively, irreverent, and deeply bookish, with plenty of inside jokes and rapid-fire questions.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Meet the Guest: Paul Tremblay and the State of Horror

Timestamps: 03:12 – 10:00

• Paul’s Background: Recently transitioned to full-time writing after 30 years teaching math at a Catholic boys’ high school.

  “People usually react more in horror to that than they do to the horror writing.” – Paul Tremblay (05:00)

• Genre Renaissance: Horror is experiencing a boom in publishing and pop culture, with more diversity and adventurous storytelling.

  “We’re finally getting to see… way more own voices. To me, that’s one of the most exciting parts about what we’re seeing both in film and publishing.” – Paul (08:32)

• Cultural Touchstone: Films like Get Out lifted critical perceptions of horror.

  “There were literal articles in the New York Times like, ‘Do we need to take horror seriously because of that movie?’” – Paul (09:48)

• Writing Origins: Inspired to write after exposure to Joyce Carol Oates and reading The Stand by Stephen King; emphasizes the value of passionate, authentic engagement.

  “It’s okay to like things. That means it’s okay to be passionate about it and maybe want to try it yourself… that’s such an important first step.” – Paul (11:55)

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2. On AI in Storytelling

Timestamps: 13:12 – 16:01

• Human Creativity vs. AI: Discussion (and rant) against AI-generated fiction.

  “Books like this, like Victorian Psycho, aren’t going to happen with AI…” – Elena (13:27) “You’re not a writer or a visual artist if you’re using [AI]; you’re a scab.” – Paul Tremblay (15:05)

• Litigation: Paul was part of the initial lawsuit against OpenAI for using writers' works without permission.

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3. Paul’s Latest Project: Dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep

Timestamps: 15:44 – 18:13

• Book Premise: Satirical horror about a comatose man with AI/nanobots in his head, controlled (Weekend at Bernie’s-style) across the country by a gamer. Dual POV, blending humor and nightmare.
• Real-World Fears: Inspired by creeping possibilities in technology and loss of control.

  “My fear writing the book... I gotta get this done before it can actually happen.” – Paul (18:06)

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4. The Power and Origin of Horror

Timestamps: 18:43 – 24:33

• Personal Fears in Fiction: Paul avoids nuclear war themes due to deep real-life anxiety.
• Inspirations: Childhood nightmares from movies (Jaws, Alien), Creature Double Feature TV, and the impact of oral storytelling.

  “Jaws gave me the most nightmares… I still cover my eyes when Quint gets… bit in half. That broke my little ten-year-old brain.” – Paul (23:22)

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5. On Writing: Ambiguity, Process, and the Magic of Inspiration

Timestamps: 26:41 – 30:49

• Process: “I typically have some notion of the ending… Sometimes this is the last line; I have to earn my way there.” – Paul (26:55)
• Ambiguous Endings: Likes leaving questions open to heighten the horror and engage readers longer.

  “I wanted A Head Full of Ghosts to be scary precisely because we didn’t know… ambiguity helps trigger that scary part of life.” – Paul (27:34)

• Inspirational Oddities: Ideas often strike in strange places: train rides, YouTube deep-dives, and even panic about deadlines.

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6. If Readers Take Only One Thing…

Timestamp: 29:32

• Empathy for Characters: Horror springs from realistic people making terrible choices we can almost understand.

  “Some of the horror is these people are doing terrible things… Maybe that would be me. That’s a scary sort of realization.” – Paul (30:26)

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Morbid Book Club: "Victorian Psycho" Deep Dive

Timestamps: 32:30 – 60:43

A. First Reactions and Tonal Tightrope

• A Satirical Blast: Dark, funny, and “cringe” in all the right ways. The shock is both hilarious and disturbing.

  “I love Winifred. She’s awful, but she’s hilarious. And I was, like, rooting for her in a weird way.” – Ash (32:46)

• Unpredictable Moments:

  “Mrs. Abel, I muse, is a woman who has never held a penis.” – (Paul quoting Feito, 33:09)

B. Cringe, Comedy, and Baby-Killing: Why Do We Laugh?

• Gallows Humor: The book’s darkness is leavened by unexpected asides and cheerful brutality.

  “I spit out the blood and see, as so often happens when one slits an infant's carotid artery, that the baby is dead. I was like, why is that funny and also awful?” – Elena (34:52)

• Reader Manipulation: It’s a magic trick that we end up rooting for Winnie, who’s equal-opportunity monstrous.

  “She’s killing everybody. Nobody is spared! … It could have been like a superhero story – only killing the bad people – but this feels like real life; she just went for it.” – Paul (36:03)

C. Unreliable Narration & Ambiguity

• Did Drusilla Participate? Varying interpretations about Winnie’s sister's complicity in the killings; narratively ambiguous.

  “There’s a line early on—‘I fear I am succumbing to elaborate flights of fancy’—so she hints at unreliability.” – Paul (49:04)

• On Victims:

  “The high society parents of ‘other baby’ never even notice… Like, attuned to their own kid—blew my mind.” – Paul (45:27)

D. Victorian Setting as Character

• Filthy Rich: Victorian society normally portrayed as elite/gilded is here lampooned as decadent, gross, and oblivious.

  “The Victorian elite are just foul… Earwax on the pillow, lard in their hair...things that make you go 'ergh.'” – Elena (44:18)

• Historical Horror: Real customs like mummy-unwrapping, arsenic in green dresses, and belladonna eyedrops are woven in for both authenticity and disgust.

E. Narrative Highlights and Memorable Quotes

• Notable Shocks: The “all will be dead in three months” foreshadowing, the swapping of a murdered baby with a random infant (and no one notices), and the infamous decayed crow pudding scene.
• Winnie's Unhinged Wit:

  “Are we not allowed to eat the children?” – Winnie, biting into a calf’s head (54:53)
  “She talks about having shelves lined with dead babies at home as a child…” – Elena (56:06)

F. Ambiguity and Reader Participation

• “Do you think Drusilla really helped, or was she chained up all along?”: The hosts and Paul debate whether the end is delusion or fact (49:04–52:41).

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Rapid Fire: Would You Rather – Slasher & Gothic Edition

Timestamps: 60:47 – 81:14

A playful segment where Paul responds to themed “would you rather?” questions about ghosts, haunted rooms, killer group chats, cryptids, and horror icons. Highlights include:

• Would you rather be haunted by a Victorian etiquette ghost or a Puritan judge?

  “I can ignore the etiquette, but like, Puritan’s like, ‘You’re going to go to hell if you do this, this and this.’” – Paul (76:18)

• Would you rather have definitive proof that ghosts exist or do not?

  “The first one would be more fun… I’d be the most famous person on earth and could totally cash in!” – Paul (69:18)

• Best creepy experience: The hosts share personal haunting anecdotes from growing up in an old, haunted house (70:45–72:47).

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Listener Takeaways

• Victorian Psycho is a wild, darkly comic, and boundary-pushing novel that manages to make the reader complicit in rooting for a monster.
• The book is a catalyst for discussing why horror works best when it’s subversive, ambiguous, and informed by real history and trauma.
• Laugh-out-loud moments can live side-by-side with genuine horror and disgust when written with confidence and voice.
• Both the novel and the conversation celebrate what’s unique and irreplaceable about human creativity—something that AI, “scabs,” and formulaic stories can’t replicate.
• Ambiguity—about morality, about the truth, about memory and madness—makes horror sticky and impactful.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “‘It’s okay to like things…That’s such an important—it has to be your first step.’” – Paul Tremblay (11:55)
• “She’s killing everybody. Nobody is spared! …she just went for it.” – Paul Tremblay (36:03)
• “‘I fear I am succumbing to elaborate flights of fancy…’” – direct quote from Victorian Psycho, raising the question of narrative truth (49:23)
• “Are we not allowed to eat the children?” – Winnie (via Elena, 54:53)
• “I’d rather have Winifred host my funeral…I’ll already be dead!” – Paul Tremblay (74:44)

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Essential Timestamps for Deep Segments

• Paul’s Personal Horror Journey: 03:12–10:00
• AI & Authenticity Debate: 13:12–16:01
• Discussing "Dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep": 15:44–18:13
• Triggering Scenes and Book Analysis: 32:30–55:00+
• Ambiguous Endings & Reader Interpretations: 49:04–52:41
• Would You Rather (Rapid Fire): 60:47–81:14
• Personal Ghost Stories: 70:45–72:47

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Final Notes / Recommendations

• Victorian Psycho is a must for those who love their horror with humor, satire, and a vicious bite. The upcoming film adaptation, written by the author herself, could continue the novel’s subversive streak.
• Paul Tremblay’s own new book, Dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep (out June 30), blends AI concerns with existential horror and humor.
• For more twisted sisterly and historical horror, check out Widow’s Bay (TV series), which the hosts and Paul also recommend for achieving the rare, delicate balance of horror and comedy.

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Plugging the Guest

• Paul Tremblay’s latest, Dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep, releases June 30.
• Paul and Grady Hendrix will appear at The Strand, NYC, July 2.
• “Please go read Paul’s books. Or else—we’ll fight you!” – Ash (82:28)

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This summary captures the tone, quotes, core discussions, and major literary and horror insights from this jovial, deeply nerdy book club episode of Morbid.

Transcript

[Elena]

Foreign.

[Ash]

Hey, weirdos. This episode is brought to you by Ashley. Your home should show off who you are. As the largest furniture store brand in North America, Ashley can help you create a comfortable, functional and stylish home that you can feel proud of and in a price range that works for you. With Ashley's lifestyle driven designs, you don't have to choose between practical and being stylish. Visit your local Ashley store or head to Ashley.com to find your style. All right brothers, we're gonna get into the actual intro. But first, Big Red has something to tell you.

[Elena]

I do have something to tell you. Today we have somebody very special on the pod in the Pod Lab. The second Pod Lab.

[Ash]

Ashkel's. Pod Lab.

[Elena]

Ashkel's.

[Ash]

Welcome to the pod Lab. It's still a little bit under construction, but we're working on it. We have. Whoa.

[Elena]

Thanks Mikey.

[Ash]

That was badass.

[Elena]

We have Paul Tremblay on the pod today. Paul is the critically acclaimed New York Times best selling author of Head Full of Ghosts. The Pallbearers Club Cabin at the End of the World and actually that one had has already been adapted to a film. It's Knock at the Cabin I believe it's called. So go check that out. And Head Full of Ghosts is gonna be adapted to a movie.

[Ash]

So cool.

[Elena]

Wait. His newest release right here. Dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep, which is an amazing title. It's coming out June 30th. That's wherever you can find books. We have actually already recorded with Paul and had a fucking fantastic time. He was so nice. He's phenomenal. His books are phenomenal and I urge you to go check them out. And we're really excited for you to see our conversation with him.

[Ash]

Woo. Before we get into the episode, we do just have to thank our sponsor one more time. Ashley is such an icon. I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about this gorgeous furniture that we are sitting on and our feet are upon and our drank are upon.

[Elena]

We got.

[Ash]

This is the Revan Lake sofa that we're sitting on. It's comfy.

[Elena]

It's really comfy.

[Ash]

It's chic. I love the color and it's washable which is nice. I got the. The love seat over there and then we have the Melee coffee table which I'm actually ordering another one to put in my living room downstairs cuz I love it so much.

[Elena]

I like to say really quick that the Schweppes on there was a mistake.

[Ash]

I. A mistake Instacart. I'm not Talking to you right now. And finally, these are the core stone tables, the end tables. What I love about these is that I feel like I'm like a QVC girl. I love that you can dress them up like the shelves. You can kind of just like, put all your accoutrements, all your decor, your trinkets, your chopsticks.

[Elena]

Yahara movies.

[Ash]

Yahara movies, your awala, your game that you crafted with your sister in Hunt a killer. You can just put anything on the end table. So thank you to Ashley for sponsoring today's episode and for sending us this really cool furniture because it's sick. And without further ado, let's get into it. Yeah. Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash.

[Elena]

I'm Elena.

[Paul Tremblay]

And I'm Grady Hendrix. No, wait, I'm Paul.

[Ash]

We said, paul, you can be whoever you want to be today.

[Elena]

And he chose Grady Hendrix.

[Ash]

Oh, yes.

[Elena]

This is morbid. This is a very special morbid. We have animate. We already introduced him, but I'm going to introduce him again. This is Paul Tremblay. If you don't know him, go figure it out because there's a body of work that you need to get into right now. He's an amazing writer and you're missing out if you haven't read his books,

[Ash]

so get to it.

[Elena]

And also, there's several adaptations that have been happening lately.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. Thank you so much. The most recent would be A Head Full of Ghosts wrapped filming in the Dublin area, which is where actually Victorian Psycho was filmed in Ireland as well.

[Elena]

Oh, that's cool.

[Paul Tremblay]

Virginia and I talked a little bit about. But anyway, yeah, wrapped and probably be out in a year from now. Yeah, super excited.

[Elena]

I'm really excited for that. That's actually one of my favorite of your books.

[Paul Tremblay]

Thank you so much.

[Elena]

Very excited about that.

[Paul Tremblay]

It's going to be a scary movie. I love that. They didn't pull any punches. So the directors, it was weird. We were talking, my wife and I, on the way over. The director is our Austrian niece and nephew. Like. Like, this is kind of funny.

[Elena]

Oh, my God, that's so cool.

[Ash]

Oh, that is funny. Like us. Like us. Or aunt.

[Paul Tremblay]

I should say aunt. Nephew.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elena]

There you go.

[Paul Tremblay]

Right, Cool.

[Elena]

That's so rad. I love that. Well, we mentioned Victorian Psycho. Yes, that's what we're going to be talking about today.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

This was actually your pick, which we are very excited. And I had heard about this book. It's by Virginia Fato. Excuse me. And I've heard about this book everywhere. Like, I'm on TikTok like booktok.

[Ash]

Loves it.

[Elena]

I've heard about. So many people have told me you have to read this book and it's been on my TBR forever. So when you mentioned it, I was like, whoa, perfect time.

[Paul Tremblay]

Great.

[Elena]

I ate this book up in one day.

[Ash]

Like one day.

[Elena]

Literally just ate it up. It's so easy to read. It is such a good book. I think it's so unique.

[Ash]

I feel like I've never read anything quite like this, you know.

[Elena]

Truly.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And we're going to get really into it in a minute but first I want to talk to you about you.

[Paul Tremblay]

Okay.

[Elena]

Because you guys got to know who Paul is.

[Paul Tremblay]

I'm not Victorian.

[Elena]

You're not Victorian? Not you.

[Ash]

A psycho.

[Paul Tremblay]

Only when. I don't know.

[Ash]

To be determined.

[Elena]

We'll figure it out through this. So we were actually just talking about this. Congrats on finally becoming a full time writer.

[Paul Tremblay]

Thank you.

[Elena]

That's incredible.

[Paul Tremblay]

I appreciate that. Yeah, it's a little weird, a little daunting. Yeah. I've been a high school Math teacher for 30 years and people usually react more in horror to that than they do. The horror writing.

[Elena]

I was going to say. That's horror to me.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, no, I totally get it. You know, at a small school, local Tahir and they were always super supportive and let me be the weirdo. Horror writing agnostic math teacher in a Catholic boys school.

[Ash]

Oh hell yeah.

[Elena]

That's badass.

[Ash]

That's awesome. That's a story in and of itself that you need to write a thing.

[Paul Tremblay]

Thankful they're never, you know, if I missed a day or two to go to like a festival or something, they were great.

[Elena]

Oh, that's so cool. That's so rare.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah, I can see why you stayed there for so long.

[Paul Tremblay]

No, it was like, I mean, my artistic writerly safety net maybe similar to you. Like you were just telling me how you kept your job for a long time. I mean it was, it was just nice to know, hey, I had this job that sometimes paid our shitty health insurance and then, you know, I could write a book and if it was weird, that's okay. If I needed to say no, I could because I didn't have to like do what the publisher said or what people expected.

[Elena]

I know, and I think that actually makes it better. I feel like you probably were a little able to be more free and creative with that when you have that safety net. Because when it's all on you, it's like, this has to work. It has to be what everyone Likes.

[Paul Tremblay]

No, a hundred percent. Always admire friends who make a go of it full time and that's how they've been supporting their family for years. I mean, that's a pressure that I'll have to figure out. My kids are older now, so they're on their own.

[Elena]

So what a medium pressure. Well, you're definitely the most successful part time writer writer I have ever seen. Like, that's crazy. When I saw, I think I saw you post about it and I was like, wait a minute. I was like, he's not full time doing this. What the hell? But you seem to have come to the full time side of writing at the right time. Because I feel like horror is having kind of like a cultural renaissance right now. Even with movies and stuff like backrooms, weapons, sinners, Frankenstein, obsession. Why do you think that's happening right now?

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, I mean, that's hard to answer. I'm not sure. I mean, I think some of it was funny. Let me back up. So A Head Full of Ghosts was the book that sort of made me like that broke out and we were, when we were trying to sell that in early 2014, a lot of publishers were like, ah, but it's horror. And like it was. We eventually did get a published which was amazing. But just it's not that long ago. Like now like 11, 12 years later, it's like, you know, that people are like, oh, Publishers Weekly reports and like, oh, the sale like the publisher acquisition of horror novels is up 25% from last year, which was up 25% from the year before. And it's just, you know, the worst case scenario. Person in me that you know, powers my books is like, oh no, it's going to be a bubble that pops.

[Elena]

Yep,

[Ash]

that's nerve wracking.

[Paul Tremblay]

But no, I mean, I think it's in a healthy place we're finally getting to see. It's not just, you know, authors who look, you know, white straight authors who look like me and Grady. It's, you know, we're getting to see way more own voices and you know, to me that's like one of the most exciting parts about what we're seeing both in film and, and in publishing.

[Elena]

Oh yeah, I agree. I think it's like different point of views coming into it. I think finally people are being open to that, which is nice and I love it. I love seeing that and I love seeing them like win awards. I love all of like seeing this happen. I'm like, it's time. It's our time.

[Paul Tremblay]

No, I mean the Other part of it is, I think, well, I mean, I'll talk about Gen X a little bit. Like, I mean, so many of us grew up reading Stephen King and watching the movies. And then the later half of the previous decade, so many of us were now publishing books like the Children, if not of Stephen King, but of that time period. Yeah. Like I said, there's still a stigma with horror, which I hope never leaves, frankly. I mean, I always want horror. Horror should be poking and prodding at uncomfortable things and on the boundaries. So I hope it doesn't lose that. Yeah. So I think, honestly, get out has a lot to do with it. Like when that came out, like, that was the first time broader culture, especially academia and mainstream reviewers were like, oh, there were, there were, I remember literal articles in New York Times like, do we need to take horror seriously because of that movie?

[Ash]

They were like, changed the landscape a little.

[Elena]

That movie is flawless.

[Ash]

I love that movie.

[Elena]

Flawless. I love that movie.

[Ash]

So good.

[Elena]

Now, do you remember the exact moment that you realized that you wanted to write horror?

[Paul Tremblay]

Oh, geez. No, it's a tough one. No, it's hard to explain how I got there. I mean, I'm a lifelong scaredy cat for one, so I've always had like a love terrified relationship with horror.

[Ash]

That's how I feel.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. Still, like, if I'm alone in the house, I'm not above sleeping with like a desk lamp on.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah, same.

[Paul Tremblay]

Or, you know, noise machines and still go up the basement steps too quick just because I'm ridiculous. But I mean, I wasn't even like a huge reader as a kid. Like, I was just sort of like a nerdy math person, you know, Loved the Celtics, you know. And it wasn't until college where I met my wife, Lisa. She bought me. Right after I graduated, two things happened. My last. And I hope this isn't too boring. You can cut it. I had to take a English requirement. I was in a freshman English class second semester, senior year. Oh, it blew my mind. I had like the stereotype type experience. And the teacher was a big punk music fan and I was too. So we connected. But anyway, one of the stories I read in that class was Joyce Carol Oates's, where are you going? Where have you been? I remember reading it and I actually said aloud. I was like, I didn't know people wrote things like this.

[Elena]

I love that.

[Paul Tremblay]

And shortly after that, Lisa bought me the stand after graduation. And I hailed that when I went off to grad school for two years and struggled by the Skin of my Teeth to get a master's degree. That's when I was reading everything Stephen King wrote. And from Dance Macabre, I branched out to, like, Peter Straub and Clive Barker and Shirley Jackson. And then two years after that, I got my first teaching job, and I had the weird itch to try writing a story. Inexplicable. Like, why would I try writing a story as a math teacher?

[Elena]

I love that, though. That's so cool. That's how I felt too. When I first started writing, like, the. My first book, I was like, I don't know how to write a story. Like, I was like, I can't write a whole book. What am I doing?

[Ash]

I just imagine everybody feels that way when they.

[Elena]

I feel like everybody has to feel that way, you know, in the beginning, being like, I'm not gonna get to the end of this. Like, yeah, this isn't going to be something someone reads.

[Paul Tremblay]

Right? Like, I'm terrible at writing advice, so I don't give it. The only thing I tell, especially to younger people, it's like, hey, you know, hopefully you come to this realization a lot earlier than I did. But hopefully, you know, you come to the realization that it's okay to like things. It's getting harder and harder to do that with, you know, obviously with just, you know, social media life and everyone hates everything, you know, it's okay to like things. That means it's okay to be passionate about it and maybe want to try it yourself. And, I mean, that's such an important. It has to be your first step.

[Elena]

Yes. I'm so. I'm so glad you said that, because I'm constantly trying to tell my kids that I'm like, I want to tell you now. When you're young, like, you can be passionately excited about things and not feel weird about it. Like, don't make people feel, like. Make you feel like you can't be all in on something, right. And want to do it or want to experience it or want to learn everything you can about it. Like, I feel like we have got to a place now where, like, everybody wants to be the same and everything's cringe. And it's like, that's so cringey that you're into that. It's like, stop. I hate that.

[Paul Tremblay]

Unless they like Grady Hendrix books, then we should really stop.

[Elena]

That's cringe. I love Grady.

[Ash]

Grady.

[Paul Tremblay]

Grady's a friend. I just like making fun of him.

[Elena]

We love Grady. We had him on and we had the most fun with him. He's great.

[Paul Tremblay]

It was a fun episode.

[Elena]

He is so much fun.

[Ash]

He's so funny.

[Elena]

He was really fun with the. Would you rather. So get ready for that.

[Ash]

Yup.

[Elena]

And actually this kind of leads into what I wanted to talk about next. So. Speaking of a love of writing and getting passionate about things, AI, I have to rant with you about it because I think we feel the exact same way about it.

[Paul Tremblay]

Oh, yeah.

[Elena]

It's upsetting me so much because books like this, like Victorian Psycho, aren't going to happen with AI. And it's making me crazy that it's become a thing. And I feel like you need to go through the whole being inspired to write something, coming up with the idea, working through it at some point, reading your own writing and being like, oh, my God, I'm a genius. And then the next day reading it and being like, I'm a hack and I should never do this. And then fighting through that feeling and coming out on the other side, like, you need to have that full experience. And I feel like all of a sudden we're going to get these books that don't have that behind it. And I feel like you need that injected into the book for it to be.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, I have no interest in reading it. I mean, the whole idea to me is reading something or watching a movie or any other piece of art. What the connection is, oh, this person felt like I did. It feels like I do, too. And there will never be any of that.

[Elena]

No.

[Paul Tremblay]

With AI. Never mind that they steal our books.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Paul Tremblay]

And I was a part of the first lawsuit suing OpenAI on behalf of writers. I love that for two years, it's myself. Other horror leading the way. Christopher golden, another horror writer, and Richard Cadre. And also weirdly. Well, not weirdly, but like, not horror writer, but Sarah Silverman. We were the first four and spent two years as a part of it. They can. There's so many lawsuits. They consolidated all to one. So then, like, I didn't continue because they also chose different lawyers. It was weird, but. Yeah. No, I mean, you know, I'm sorry if it makes people uncomfortable, but, like, you're not a writer or a visual artist. If you're using it, you're scab to use. Like, we don't have a union, but I'm going to use union terms. You're a scab.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It's all. It's stolen work.

[Elena]

Yeah. It just, at the end of the day, makes me crazy. And there's just no humanity behind it. Like, AI can't Come up. I mean, you see, you can always see it in like metaphors and stuff that you'll see written by AI. You're like, that doesn't even make sense because you don't have the capacity as a computer to compare two things. Like you just don't. It doesn't make any sense.

[Paul Tremblay]

I mean, in one way it's like it's helped crystallize like why I'm still passionate about reading and watching movies and you know, in viewing art. But you know, it's the connection components. It's like I don't. Why do we have to defend this or.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Or explain why that this is important.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And it makes it so you have a book coming out on June 30th and it's dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep. I love that title.

[Ash]

First of all, it's such a good

[Elena]

title, such a good title. And it has some like AI components in it. Like in the story. It's about that. The plot seems so interesting to me. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, sure. I'm bad at the, the quick pitch.

[Elena]

I'm terrible at it.

[Ash]

So don't worry. I think that's like a thing across the board.

[Paul Tremblay]

Now that we have that out of the way. Yes. So, you know, the main conceit is that there's someone who's like my age and build working for, well, not Google. Because I didn't want to get sued. I called him Sicilian, a giant tech company in the Silicon Valley.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Paul Tremblay]

He's working on campus in the mailroom and he doesn't drop dead, but he has a massive stroke where you know, he can breathe and his heart's beating, but he's not, you know, there's no consciousness. He's in a vegetative state. So they say he signed his body directly to over to the company though prior to this happening, as one does, as one does, they implant AI and nano bots into his brain so someone can remote control like they're playing a video game. So most of that happens off, off page. The semi estranged 24 year old daughter of the CFO, she was an ex professional gamer, is hired to basically Weekend at Bernie's Inn across the country.

[Elena]

Oh my God.

[Paul Tremblay]

So I'm hopeful, I hope that a big chunk of this book, maybe the first 2/3 of her chapters, Julia's chapters is definitely satire and hopefully very funny, even though it's ultimately a serious thing. So the book is split between her chapters and chapters are titled you, which is from the point of View of the man with the tech in his head. So he. He is still conscious because of what they've put in his head. He's going through, like, a phantasmagorical hellscape. And then the two sort of. The two narratives sort of link up at the end and everyone's happy and hugs.

[Elena]

Oh, I love this. I love the dual pov. But that's gonna be good. I'm really.

[Ash]

Yeah, I love a dual pool.

[Elena]

Yeah. Pov.

[Ash]

That's really cool. And to think about just, like, being unconscious but conscious at the same time, that's. That's wild.

[Elena]

That's honestly my worst.

[Paul Tremblay]

Definitely very horrific.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's very black mirror.

[Elena]

And the control aspect of it is my literal worst nightmare. I am the biggest control freak in the world. The idea of somebody controlling me when I can't.

[Paul Tremblay]

Right.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

No.

[Paul Tremblay]

One of my. One of my fears writing the book is even though the premise seems absurd, I was like, man, I got to get this done before it can actually happen.

[Elena]

I was going to say before two

[Paul Tremblay]

weeks ago, there was a story where some company has brains and jars like some companies do, apparently, like Futurama. And they were testing either both pain medication or addiction to drugs, testing the brains. And one of the spokespersons said, oh, you know, the wiring is almost taken out of what it would take for them to be conscious, almost.

[Ash]

You're like speed writing. You get it into your editor. You're like, please hurry. Oh, my God.

[Elena]

Oh, I hate that.

[Ash]

I want to go back to something that you said earlier, because I related to that so much. I'm such a horror fan, but I'm also such a fraidy cat. And you said the same thing. I wonder, do you have any fears that you've never explored in your writing that you would eventually want to someday?

[Paul Tremblay]

That's a great question. No, I don't think no one's ever asked it in that way.

[Elena]

Look at that.

[Paul Tremblay]

I mean, there's some fears that I won't write about just because it's too scary for me. And being just a child teen of the eighties, like nuclear war stuff, really, anything that brushes up against that is too much.

[Ash]

That's how I feel too.

[Paul Tremblay]

I don't write about it. Avoid. So I won't watch Oppenheimer. I'm sure it's a good movie.

[Ash]

End of the world's movie is, like, too real.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I use so much of my own life, much to the chagrin in my family, in my books. It's hard to say what's coming next. And I wish I was someone who had a bullpen of ideas. And for novels, I just go from novel and then I'm like, oh, no, what am I gonna do now?

[Ash]

Oh, then it just comes to you

[Paul Tremblay]

and just try to start from scratch and hopefully there's some inspiration. So.

[Ash]

All right.

[Elena]

That's so interesting.

[Paul Tremblay]

I don't know. I can't say, like, I definitely want to try this or that. I don't know. Maybe it's only focused on the thing I'm working on.

[Ash]

Yeah, that makes sense. You gotta see it through.

[Elena]

Yeah, I get that I have the weirdest notes in my note app of, like, ideas, but they're like, yeah, they're like, sometimes I'll look at them and I'm like, I don't know what I meant with this. Like, I will never go back to that.

[Ash]

You also have the weirdest dreams that I feel like I do.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like nightmares, I should say. I feel like so many of your ideas come from a little blip in your dream.

[Elena]

Yeah. Or my kids, weirdly.

[Ash]

Your kids are scary.

[Elena]

Where, like, they'll tell me a little bit of a, like, nightmare or something that they're scared of. And I'm like, can I use that? Like, is that cool if I put that in a room?

[Paul Tremblay]

Oh, you even asked that permission?

[Ash]

Yeah. I'm like, is it good?

[Elena]

I know, I should just take. I'm like, I made you so.

[Paul Tremblay]

My poor children. I've done taken things without permission, including a head full of ghosts. I scarred my wife Lisa with it. Because young Mary, the eight year old character, was definitely our daughter Emma when she was eight years old. Her personality.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's so cool.

[Ash]

I mean, hey, you have to write what you know, right?

[Elena]

You do?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah. I think my youngest had an imaginary friend. Well, Skeltome was one, but he's not gonna be in a book.

[Ash]

The Mister.

[Elena]

But the Mister. And she named him the Mister, which

[Ash]

told us he'll always find you. Yeah. So, like, she literally said that on a cover.

[Elena]

She said, don't worry, the Mr. Will always find you. I think it was because they were playing hide and seek, her and my husband, and they were like hiding under a blanket. And he was like, who are we hiding from? Like, who's finding? And she was like, the Mister. And he was like, I'm sorry, what? And she was like, don't worry, he'll always find us. And he was like, I hate the name. What does that mean?

[Paul Tremblay]

That's a great baroque title. The Mr. Will always find you the

[Elena]

Mr. Will always find you. I like it. Yeah.

[Ash]

Mine. Going back to scary memories or anything like that. Do you know, or can you think of the first story that ever scared you so badly that it's still with you to this day? Maybe you read it or you heard it.

[Paul Tremblay]

Oh, yeah. So, I mean, for me it was all movies. I mean, I think I'm trying to think age wise, there was. I mean, in this, when I say this area, I don't want to give away where you guys live, but in the New England area, I was. I'm old enough that there was a program called Creature Double Feature that played. Man, this was like late 70s, early 80s.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Paul Tremblay]

On Saturday, so they show two movies. The first movie was always like Godzilla or Gamera Kaiju movie. And that's what drew me in.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

The second movie was a horror movie. Like a hammer horror movie or black and white.

[Ash]

Love this.

[Paul Tremblay]

You know, some of the, like, just dumbest horror movies that get eventually were on Mystery Science Theater, right?

[Elena]

Hell yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Those gave me nightmares. I had a Attack of the Killer Shrew nightmares, nightmare that I still remember. It's such a bad movie. I had nightmares from the movie Alien before seeing it because I was listening to my parents, my aunt talk about how scary the movie was.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

That used to happen to me when I was little all the time. In fact, I remember you were there at one of my uncle's houses and all of you guys were talking about it and I just heard like the tail end and like little bits of your conversation. And I was afraid of whatever it was. I didn't even know what it was. But I was so scared of it for like months.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Paul Tremblay]

But by far, Jaws gave me the most nightmares.

[Elena]

By far, Jaws.

[Ash]

Such a foray into horror, isn't it?

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. Yeah. I really started at my high school, which is weird. When I was like in fifth grade, they were showing summer movies in high school because they had like an auditorium.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Paul Tremblay]

And my dad took me and he, he pitched the movie to me this way. He's like, oh, there's a scene in this movie that captures of what it feels like to catch a fish. That moment right when you catch it on the hook and you're like, awesome.

[Ash]

I'm in that.

[Paul Tremblay]

I mean, yeah, that scene where Quint catch, you know, hooks him.

[Elena]

It's there, it's there.

[Paul Tremblay]

But you could have told me some other things about that movie.

[Ash]

You left out a little different feeling.

[Paul Tremblay]

So, like, it's one of my favorite Movies. I've seen it 50 times since, but I still cover my eyes when Quint gets. Sorry for the spoiler, but spoiler alert for Jaws. When Quinn get bit, when he gets bit in half. That broke my little 10 year old brain. And I'm exaggerating. I had 10 years of shark nightmares after that movie.

[Elena]

Oh, I believe that.

[Paul Tremblay]

So I've seen the movie, I've watched with my kids and we'll ceremoniously put the pillow over our faces when the scene comes.

[Elena]

I love it.

[Paul Tremblay]

I've seen way more gorier stuff. I'm just like that one just has to be afraid that my brain will return to the 10 year old brain.

[Elena]

It probably would.

[Ash]

It could. It's a core memory. You know, your kids want to see Jaws so badly. So now we're going to rethink that one.

[Elena]

And they're my oldest are 10, they're 10 year old twins and they want to see see it so badly. So I've been like easing them in by being like, here's a picture of Bruce the shark as a robot. Like it's not real. I'm trying to be like here's the behind the scenes of all of it. So hopefully it'll help. But I'm like, I don't know, you

[Paul Tremblay]

have a pool or friends with the pool and put the TV and then be on floats while you're watching the movie.

[Elena]

I want to do it so bad.

[Ash]

That would be so good. We have the projector too. We do need to do that.

[Elena]

You know. They're so brave. Like they're so brave at first about horror things. So like I can do this, let's do it.

[Ash]

But then the nighttime turns out to

[Paul Tremblay]

be brave during the day for sure

[Elena]

and we regret it immediately.

[Ash]

That's how I am. Still very brave during the day. Then at night I'm like, this is so scary.

[Elena]

And I don't want to ruin horror for them. So I'm trying to like ease it in. I'm like, I don't want to give you trauma right off the bat. Yeah, yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Start with gremlins. Have you seen, have they seen gremlins?

[Elena]

They haven't yet.

[Ash]

We were just calling them gremlins.

[Elena]

I was going to say I refer to them as gremlins a lot because at nighttime they always have like an assortment of ailments and they're always nightmares and eating. I'm like, I can't feed you after midnight. Can't get you wet.

[Paul Tremblay]

Can't get him wet.

[Ash]

Yeah, straight up.

[Elena]

Gremlins Precarious.

[Ash]

I do wonder, going back to your writing process, what's the strangest place that you've gotten inspiration from a book that you can think of?

[Paul Tremblay]

There was a moment of like panic when I was on a train in England.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Paul Tremblay]

I was doing an amazing book tour over there for the Cabin at the End of the World.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Paul Tremblay]

And I knew the next book was due in less than a year at this point. And the novel I was imagining doing was going to take was going to be a big one and it was going to take way longer than a year. I'm like, oh, no, what am I going to do? I got to come up with an idea. And I had this weird what if for a zombie? That I don't want to say necessarily because it spoils the book.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Paul Tremblay]

So that was sort of like forced, I guess, panic induced inspiration. Other ways, it's just fun, like where it comes from and you never know. Like my book, horror Movie came from friend and amazing writer. Sorry to name drop it. I've already mentioned Grady, but Stephen Graham Jones, you know, amazing guy, right?

[Elena]

An amazing writer.

[Paul Tremblay]

He's like, hey, you should watch this YouTube. My friend Walter Chow is this great critic and he hosts these matinees and then talks about the movie. So basically it was an hour of Walter and writer musician John Darniel talking about Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which was a movie that I didn't. I wasn't brave enough to watch until I was in my late 30s.

[Ash]

I love that.

[Paul Tremblay]

But since I've seen it, I love that movie.

[Ash]

Such a good one.

[Paul Tremblay]

Their discussion sent me into a rabbit hole that became horror movie. So I don't know. It's just. You never know where it comes from and just try to be open to it.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Elena]

I'm actually. I am in the middle of reading horror movie right now and I love it. So there's that.

[Ash]

That's on my TBR list here. You're coming up close.

[Paul Tremblay]

I'm gonna.

[Ash]

Once you read it, I'll just steal it from you.

[Elena]

Yeah, I'll hand it over. So. And going with the writing process still, do you have. Do you start with an ending in mind or you do you just kind of like torture it out of your characters and see what happens?

[Paul Tremblay]

I like how you put that. I typically have some notion of the ending. Sometimes it's really foggy. Sometimes it can be. This is the last line. I have to earn my way there.

[Elena]

Oh, I like that.

[Paul Tremblay]

So I'd say most of the time it's obviously, I have a Beginning in a vague. Or sometimes the end in mind. And it's like the hard part is

[Elena]

all the stuff getting the middle. Yeah. And you're kind of. So you're like kind of the king of ambiguous endings. I feel like that's. You have to figure it out. You get to decide kind of.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, because I've done that a few times.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's fine. I don't know if you've heard that or not, but do you always know the true ending or are you kind of feeling that way too?

[Paul Tremblay]

It depends on the. I guess it depends on the story. So. A head full of ghosts. In my mind, there's no true ending. I think when I wrote it, I had to purposely divorce myself from thinking there was a true ending because I thought then a true. Like, the true ending would have leaked through, and I didn't want that. Like, I wanted a head full of ghosts. If it was scary at all, to be scary precisely because we didn't know and have that. You know, to me, that's just the scary part of life. Like you. We have beliefs and. But ultimately we just don't know. And I think anytime you use ambiguity, it helps trigger that a little bit, which, you know, helps maybe scare people if it works that way. I like that. You know, the cabinet at the end of the world. I way underestimated how many people are going to be upset not knowing if the world was ending or not. Because to me, the story became not about that. It became about the two. The two. The husbands and what they were going to decide that. To me, that was the story. But something like the Paul Bears Club, you know, it plays with ambiguity. But, yeah, I'm pretty sure she's a vampire. If you don't want to believe she is, that's fine, too. Yeah, I would not, you know, I would definitely wouldn't want to, like, spoil someone's reading experience.

[Elena]

But she's a vampire.

[Ash]

I mean, that's fun. Who wouldn't want that to be the ending?

[Elena]

I think so, too. Yeah, I like that. I think. I think it's more fun that way because it lets somebody. It, like, stays with someone longer when they have to sit there and think about it and wonder different.

[Paul Tremblay]

I hope it's never. I never want to be like, a cheap, like, twist. You know, twists are fun, but, like, I don't want that to be just like a gimmick. Like.

[Elena]

Yeah, you don't want that to be like.

[Paul Tremblay]

I, you know, even if, you know, anyone out there has read it and doesn't like it just. I don't know if this assures you or makes you feel better, but like, I thought hard about it. It's like I'm going to do this. I know I'm asking a lot to read 300 pages and then maybe having open ended stuff. But I don't know. I try to write books that I want to read.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

And like I like. I like having sort of the questions linger afterwards.

[Ash]

Yeah, I like that too. I think it's scarier. Like you said. One last question for you about your writing process or just writing in general. If readers can take one thing away from your work, beyond the scares, what would you want that to be?

[Paul Tremblay]

Oh, wow, that's.

[Ash]

I know we're ending on a heavy question.

[Paul Tremblay]

That's hard, especially with the novels. What I typically lean towards doing is I'm trying to make it feel like as realistic as possible. This is what it would feel like if there was a maybe demon possession or this is what it would look like. And maybe just hopefully people take away the characters. I can really only think of prior to the novel that's coming out. One mustache twisting villain. In all my prior books in Cabin, you know, there's one character who might be villain, but everyone else I want people to Again, some of the horror I think is these people are doing terrible things. I write them in such a way hopefully that you still understand why they did it and maybe recognize like, oh, if not, but for other circumstances in my own life and the luck that I've had and the privilege that maybe that would be me. And that's a scary sort of realization.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

I mean, but you know, it depends on the story. I mean, these are just the things that I write like in the book that's coming out. The AI in the book is definitely not to be ignored in any way, but yeah.

[Ash]

All right, guys, we're taking a quick break so that we can talk about one of our most favorite sponsors, Ashley. I am obsessed with Ashley. And they were nice enough to send us this gorgeous furniture that you see me sitting my little bum on. And we got a coffee table, we got this gorgeous sofa. We got the love seat over here. We'll show you all these different pieces. It was so important to me when I was updating my studio that I really wanted like a timeless, almost kind of like vintage feel. I love really rich dark woods, which you can see. This is the core stone end table one. I love again the rich dark wood, but also the fact that you can kind of dress up the bottom shelves or like the little shelves right there with your decor style. This is the Revillon lake sofa and the matching loveseat over there. One, I love that it goes really well with what we have already for morbid decor. And two, I just feel like the color fits so well with the paint color and the overall vibe that we have in here. So thank you so much to Ashley. We are obsessed with this furniture. Your home or your pod lab should show off who you are. Ashley has styles that balance timeless appeal and modern trends to bring your personal look home. Ashley is dependable with a modern feel, offering well crafted, as you can see, affordable pieces built to stand up to real life and with great looks that are made to last. Plus, Ashley provides fast, reliable white glove delivery right to your room of choice. Visit your local Ashley store or head to Ashley.com to find your style. All right, so let's talk about your book club pick. Victorian Psycho. Excellent. Excellent pick. Top notch. This book is little, but she is fierce.

[Elena]

She is.

[Ash]

To quote. Who is that? Is that Shakespeare?

[Elena]

Sure.

[Ash]

Mighty.

[Elena]

I don't know.

[Ash]

So let's talk about moments that made us cringe throughout the book, because I've. I cringed throughout this entire thing.

[Elena]

It was a lot of cringe.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I tabbed the hell out of this.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I could not stop.

[Ash]

Also, can I just say, like, I love Winifred. She's awful, but she's hilarious. And I was, like, rooting for her in a weird way.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

You know? Yeah.

[Ash]

I was like, yeah, kill that family.

[Paul Tremblay]

No, Like, I was laughing and gasping.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Paul Tremblay]

Less. Less cringing. Like, I couldn't. Yeah. So we're gonna get spoilery. This is good. Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah, we're gonna get spoilery. It'll be in those notes, too. So you guys know.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. We're gonna be talking about the book.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, I was sent. I was lucky to be sent, like, an arc. And I happen to have the time to, you know, to. To be able to read it. And I was a little nervous going into it, only because, like, anytime, like, And I know this from experience, like, using a title that references, like, a famous work. Yeah, we'll see. Which I've read. And actually, even though it's pretty awful, I really do like that book. So I was like, all right, we'll see what happens. But, man, she had me at the end of the first chapter. Mrs. Abel, I muse, is a woman who has never held a penis. It was just the timing of it she was describing, you know, like, I'm so bad at Remembering the character names but describing the woman who was in charge of, like, the house and everything. It's just like, you were not expecting that line. There were so many lines that you were just not expecting. It was just said so plainly.

[Elena]

That's what I loved.

[Ash]

She was just so funny. And, like, the little asides that she would make to the reader were so funny. I felt like we were, like friends throughout the reading process because she would

[Elena]

say something like, dear reader or something, and I was like, I know, girl. I was like, we're in this together.

[Ash]

Yeah, you're right.

[Elena]

And I love that she had, like. It was like the little asides that you didn't see coming where she was like, I teach them history and arithmetic and what corpses smell like in French. And I was like, wait, what? Back up. That's part of it. And they're just sprinkled everywhere in this book.

[Ash]

They really loved it.

[Elena]

She surprised me everywhere. She did. Yeah. Also with the cringy moments. I felt like there was so many genuinely hilarious moments that I felt guilty laughing at at times.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

Like, there was a point when she. This is awful. But with, like, original baby.

[Ash]

When she's like, original baby and new

[Elena]

baby and meow, baby was killing me the entire time. And when she says, I spit out the blood and see, as so often happens when one slits an infant's carotid artery, that the baby is dead. I was like, why is that funny and all that awful? Like, I was so nervous going into

[Ash]

it because one of my friends read this before me, and she was like, just so you know, there's, like, kid death, and, like, she kills babies. And I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna like that. And then she's like, you know, as so often happens when you kill a baby?

[Elena]

And I was like, why?

[Ash]

Is that hilarious?

[Elena]

Like, no, I don't know how that is.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. I knew nothing going in that. That was so shocking. That was like a gasp. Yeah. And. And again, laugh despite yourself.

[Elena]

Yeah. I was like, I shouldn't be laughing at this, but this is hilarious.

[Paul Tremblay]

It's one of the magic tricks of. Of. Of Winnie is. And, you know, Virginia manipulating the reader to get you to be somewhat on her side. And I think people, based on what I see online, have false memories of this book because they want to root for her and they assume, oh, no, she's only killing bad people. She's killing the patriarchy, and she's killing the rich people. She's kind of killing everybody.

[Elena]

Kill Babylon.

[Paul Tremblay]

Nobody is spared.

[Ash]

No.

[Paul Tremblay]

Opportunist killer, which I really admired about her approach, because it could have been. I mean, it makes us feel good, but it could have been like superhero. Like, she only kills the bad people. I don't know. I only get so much mileage out of some of those stories because it doesn't feel like real life. When I read Happy, not all happy endings, but when I read stuff like that, I actually feel worse because it's like, oh, that made me feel good, but that's not why.

[Elena]

But that's not real.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. And even though as wild and fantastical in some ways that this book is, it just feels like, oh, she just went for it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah. Because she says, like, the dead babies in the boxes that she sent to the nuns with, like, the. Sorry, here's another one note. I was like, I'm sorry.

[Ash]

What? Sorry, here's one more. And they kind of like, touch on that earlier, I think, when she's sitting down with them and she's, like, about to eat and kind of interview with them, they're like, oh, that's so awful that that's happening. And in the back of your mind you're like, is that her doing.

[Elena]

What are you doing?

[Ash]

And then she's like, can confirm.

[Elena]

Yeah, can confirm. Just with the notes. Sorry, here's another one. I was like, what?

[Paul Tremblay]

And just like, breaking out of sort of the Victorian speak a little bit too.

[Ash]

Yeah, there was a few times she did that for sure.

[Elena]

And it worked so well. And I think just like, at one point she says, reader, she doth make a fine point about Priscilla. And I was like, she does.

[Ash]

She really does.

[Elena]

I'm with you on this. I know when she found the tooth in her mouth that wasn't hers, and then it just never was explained again.

[Ash]

Whose tooth was that?

[Elena]

Like, whose molar was in her mouth?

[Ash]

And, like, did that happen? There were so many things that happened that I was like, did that happen? Like, I think when she's really starting to unravel, she walks by one of the rooms and there's a bunch of, like, plague doctors. And you're like, they're not there. It's Christmas. Like, what?

[Elena]

But they're all just like.

[Ash]

And then they just close her out of there.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Or when Original Baby just talks to

[Elena]

her out of nowhere. That's how Original Baby got.

[Paul Tremblay]

Got. Yeah.

[Elena]

Started talking.

[Ash]

I loved that.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. On my second read, you know, to prepare for this, because I wrote it. I read it like, you know, two. Two and a half years ago at this point. Because I Got the early, early copy.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

I was like, oh, maybe this is a little bit more. Way more ambiguous than I thought. Even, like, because it's written in present tense. And there's some times where I forget the end of one chapter is like. It's not like, will they survive the night? And then she says they don't or something. It breaks from present tension wondering about the state of these people in the house to her saying, no, they don't.

[Elena]

Like, no.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

So, I mean, her as a storyteller is part of. It could just be explained away as it's a choice of how she's telling it. Because, you know, by the end, you know, when she's on the gallows sort of explaining things, like, it just made me think, how am I. How am I learning the story? Like, how are we hearing this? And she even, like, says, you know, sometimes I'm not right in the head. Not in those words exactly.

[Ash]

But she's truthful.

[Elena]

She is.

[Paul Tremblay]

Which I loved because that was like, oh, this is a book that I could read multiple times and still, you know, and still wonder and still even know, like, I won't have the shock of the baby being killed and replaced with some poor farmer's baby that she just plucks from.

[Ash]

She just runs down the street. Who's gonna have a different nose later on. I loved that.

[Paul Tremblay]

There's still so many other pleasures to get from this when you read it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And I like that she foreshadows the gallows a couple of times for you where you're like, I'm sorry, what? You're just like, okay, you're gonna get caught after this. This isn't the end. I loved that.

[Ash]

That was really cool.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Do you think Winifred. Do you think of her as a psychopath, a villain, or the most honest person in the room or all of the above?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. I mean, I gotta be all three, I guess. I mean.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That's what I think.

[Paul Tremblay]

Do that to a baby.

[Elena]

Yeah. I feel that's.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, that's it. The baby line. But the rest of the people in the house are awful. Probably as bad as she. Or as bad as she is in different ways.

[Ash]

Yeah, I think so. I think so. For sure.

[Elena]

Yeah. Mrs. Pounds.

[Ash]

I hate Mrs. Pounds.

[Elena]

I was ready from the jump, too. Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

And the green dress she gave her, that was probably poisoned. I missed that on the first read, somehow, I think.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

On the second read, there was more time spent with that. That could be messing with her brain and. Yeah.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. Cause they used to make those. We looked it up. They used to make those dresses out of, like, arsenic. So, like, they would wear them a few times and then start dying. Yeah.

[Ash]

Literally.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

They put it in wallpaper, too. Like, any vibrant green thing back in the day was probably laced with arsenic. Wild. What was the first scene that made you realize this book was going to be feral? Was it the one that you already read?

[Paul Tremblay]

I think it was probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elena]

When she's. I think it was, like, the first chapter at the end when she says, in three months, everyone in this house will be dead.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

I was like.

[Ash]

I took notes, a couple of notes, and that was the first thing I wrote down. I was like, oh, okay.

[Elena]

That was the first one I tabbed. I was like, damn.

[Ash]

And she's. I think she starts it off by being like, yeah, it's gonna be, like, really cold, and it's gonna get colder, and then everyone's gonna die.

[Elena]

Yeah. It's crazy.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Wow. All right. I'm into it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And again, I feel like we just were all. I was rooting for her pretty early on, and I. Which I was shocked by, because at first when I read that, I was like, oh, no. Like, she's gonna be. Is she gonna be irredeemable?

[Ash]

Well, and she's gonna kill, like, a whole family, and she is irredeemable.

[Elena]

That's the weird thing is, like, she's completely irredeemable. But, like, why did I like her? I was like, that is so hard to write a character that way and have it work.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's impressive.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. It's only, like, the voice is just so humorous and inviting and, like. And she's letting you in on it. So basically that sort of, like, gets you over to her side. She is. You know, these people are pretty terrible. Right? Like, don't you think? Except, you know, they're. The people aren't so terrible who are also getting it.

[Elena]

It's true. She's equal opportunity.

[Paul Tremblay]

Now, the scene in the book also, like you were thinking, the feral scene, what comes to mind to me is the decayed crow pudding.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. When she was away at school, those kids.

[Paul Tremblay]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

Clergy daughter school or whatever.

[Ash]

That actually made my stomach turn when I was reading it.

[Elena]

That was narc.

[Ash]

She's, like, covering it up, like, with the maggots and everything. I was like, oh, my God.

[Elena]

That was. I. Yeah, that was a lot. That's. I think when she. One of the first mentions of, like, and I will be hung at some point during this, I was like, yeah, yeah, probably, girl. That's not good.

[Ash]

But then I also felt, like, weirdly bad for her because they were so mean to her. She was saying. And that was the one time that, like, they needed her.

[Elena]

I know.

[Ash]

It reminded me. Have you seen Yellow Jackets?

[Paul Tremblay]

I haven't.

[Ash]

Oh, okay. That's all right. It kind of reminded me of Misty, one of the characters who, like. Like, she's a psychopath, but she, like, wants to be needed so desperately, and

[Elena]

she's, like, bullied and kind of pushed around a little bit.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elena]

So when she's needed, she, like, she makes a situation where she is needed.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Essentially.

[Ash]

It felt very much like that.

[Elena]

And that's what she did. She made a situation where she was.

[Ash]

She's like. It's the only time that they ever were, like, nice to me.

[Elena]

It made me sad. And I. I like, too, that, like. Like, we were just saying we don't know who the worst person in the book is. Technically, like, Winnie Winifred is the worst person in the book. But, like, probably there's other people that you're like, these people are also really terrible. Like, Mr. Pounds is gross.

[Ash]

Mr. Pounds is really gross.

[Elena]

Like, all those people at the dinner party, like, the dowager.

[Ash]

I hated the dowager.

[Elena]

Such a bitch with her cane, just hitting people. When she finally got caught with that cane, I was like, all right, I'm into that.

[Ash]

It's a perfect way to take her out.

[Elena]

Yeah, it really was. And I mean, she. The thing with Winifred is she exists in this weird space in the book, and I think it makes it the. Really interesting because she's a governess, so she's in charge of the kids. And she. She's not. She's not known to be family in the beginning. She's not one of the servants, technically. And she's also definitely not an equal at all. But she's like. She has this unique ability to be able to, like, wander around the house and sit at the table and have more access to places and people without getting the same kind of respect that someone would. And I feel like that helped tell the story really well.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Because she has all this access, but she's treated so poorly.

[Paul Tremblay]

Right.

[Elena]

You know, and I really liked that. I thought that made it unique. For sure.

[Paul Tremblay]

Absolutely.

[Elena]

And I think there's a lot of. Obviously, the Victorian high society is like, a character in this.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

The setting, like, it does become a

[Elena]

character in and of itself. And I think it's, like, kind of flipped on its ear. Here. Because a lot of people think of Victorian high society as like, you know, fancy and like gilded and like everything was so like, you know, like they're elite, they're this. But she portrays them as disgusting.

[Ash]

Filthy, disgusting.

[Elena]

Like the Victorian elite are just foul.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And I loved that. It was like little things, like when she's going upstairs and looking in all of their rooms and she mentions the earwax on the pillow. At some point I was like, er. And like just little thing, like lard was in one of their hair to keep their hair back.

[Ash]

The scene where they're all eating that, I think Mikey had warned you beforehand because Elena has misophonia. So, like hearing things. I swear you could hear it as you were reading.

[Elena]

It was foul.

[Ash]

That scene was.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. That was like almost like a nice counterbalance to the crow meal. Like that meal was just as disgusting. Even though these were things that were specially prepared. Yeah, yeah. And how they were eating it.

[Ash]

Oh, I know.

[Elena]

They're just like, oh, it's horrifying.

[Ash]

Like gouging it into their faces. It's so gross.

[Elena]

And I think it's. I love that they presented it that way that like, these people look like may have all this money and they're. They have all the power. They are just as disgusting, if not

[Ash]

more than everybody else.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, I loved that.

[Ash]

I know. It was almost like the. Like the servants in the house were like higher society than the high society people.

[Elena]

They had it more together, I feel like.

[Paul Tremblay]

And the high society parents of other baby never even notice.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

That blew my mind. Like attuned to like their own kid. That.

[Ash]

Yeah. Oh, and the fact too that Winifred knew that that wouldn't be an issue. She's like, yeah, I feel like she had done that before, you know, And

[Elena]

I was wondering too, when she brought new baby in, I was like, what's gonna happen here? Because in my head I'm like, of course she's gonna know.

[Paul Tremblay]

That seemed like a corner impossible to write out of.

[Ash]

It did. It really did.

[Paul Tremblay]

But she really was just like, eh, you're not gonna notice.

[Ash]

I love it.

[Paul Tremblay]

Oh, yeah.

[Elena]

Like that's. And it was part of the whole, like, look how disgusting these people are. She doesn't even know her own child.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

Like, even. And it wasn't like, oh, I picked a baby that's like the same size. She was like, this doesn't look like this baby at all. And not only that, it's like, it's not as big as this baby doesn't look like, this baby has a mole that that baby doesn't have.

[Paul Tremblay]

And she scrapes it off her throat.

[Elena]

She scrapes it off.

[Ash]

I'm also like, is the baby bleeding

[Elena]

when you return it?

[Ash]

Like, what?

[Elena]

Like, that outfit it was wearing was, like, covered in blood. But she's like, ah, I don't know. Like, babies, they throw up.

[Ash]

When she said. She's like, I've learned through experience that, like, mess looks like blood. It's fine.

[Elena]

It's the same. And I was like. And she. And it works. They just showed up the next. At the next thing being like, here's the baby. Like, what the fuck?

[Paul Tremblay]

And at the next thing, with the baby a little older and looking even less.

[Elena]

Even less like it should have looked. And I loved it because she was like, its nose is gonna look different, and that's gonna be a conversation later.

[Ash]

I was like, I thought that was so funny.

[Elena]

But, yeah, it was. And what's cool, too, is she obviously did a lot of research about Victorian times and weird Victorian customs, because they were nuts. Like, that whole mummy unwrapping part, I

[Ash]

was like, what is this?

[Elena]

And in my head, I was reading it and being like, this is crazy. And then I looked it up and I was like, oh, that was a thing. Like, they actually, like, wealthy Victorian families would go to Egypt, they would buy an entire mummy as a souvenir, bring it home, have a party, and then they would all just unwrap the mummy. And I was like, what?

[Ash]

That's the weirdest.

[Elena]

I'm sorry, what?

[Ash]

We're. We're a strange society and, like, for what purpose?

[Elena]

I. I don't understand the curiosity. Why are we doing this?

[Paul Tremblay]

Bored, rich imperialists.

[Ash]

Because we can't weird very much. That. Yeah, yeah.

[Elena]

And we were reading more, like, they were. You know, they were talking, like, when she's dressing Drusilla and getting her ready, and, like, all these, like, features that they find to be desirable are all, like, features of, like, tuberculosis. Like, that's. And that was considered desirable back then. It was like, being super pale and, like, super frail and, you know, the flush in the cheeks and, like, literally looking sick, looking consumptive was the cool thing. And I love that she put it in there.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Because it was all very real. Like, again, the green dress, like, that's the thing. I think she mentions the belladonna eye drops. That was a thing to, like, dilate their pupils. And they would just go blind after a while. But they'd be gorgeous. They'd be gorgeous, you know, big eyes. Like, what but one thing I really liked about this was in the end, when Drusilla joins in and is all, like, doing all the things for days. They're 12 days of Christmas, the 12 days of Christmas where they. And when they set them all up at the table and, like, feed them food, like they're just, like, having a whole feast with them. I was like, this is the most fucked up thing I've ever read. And I love it. But do you think that Drusilla actually was taking part in that or do you think she was chained up the whole time?

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, it's a great question. I was. I was going to ask what you thought about Drusilla at the end, too.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

To go back to, like, you know, how much is this. How much more of this is ambiguous than maybe we think. There's a line early on in the book where I think Winnie is confessing stuff. She says, I fear I am succumbing to elaborate flights of fancy. This shant be like other times or something.

[Elena]

Yep. So she's like, fairly early on.

[Paul Tremblay]

So. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think just because it's so weird to say that you enjoy your time with Winnie that you want to think all this happened.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Just as she says, that you're there.

[Paul Tremblay]

Just as she says. And that you're there with her at the end. And so actually we feel. Or as the reader, I felt betrayed by Drusilla. Yes.

[Ash]

I did, too. Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Which is so weird. Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, why do I feel this way?

[Ash]

When I got to the end, I was, like, pissed at Drusilla. I'm like, come on, that's your sister. You're supposed to, like, ride together. But then once I finished reading, I was thinking about just her being kind of an unreliable narrator. And I was like, maybe. I don't think Drusilla actually did help with all that. And then I think when she sees Drusilla in the crowd at the gallows and she's crying. I don't think Drusilla's crying because they had this killing bond together or anything like that. I think she's crying because of what happened to her family.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, she massacred her whole family.

[Ash]

I think she was chained up for the whole thing. And I think Winnie just didn't want to be in an alone maybe.

[Paul Tremblay]

Right. Because that's a hard switch to flip. I mean, I think there were no clues of Drusilla's potential psychotic behavior anywhere else prior to the, you know, just to the, like, Caligula sort of 12 Days of Christmas that, you know, she. You know that Winnie says she took a part in.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And that's the only thing I could think of with that that I went back to. And I think this was smart of her to plant these little things in there. Was like, the painter. Like the lecherous painter that she was into. And now, you know, the mother got mad and then the father made her hold the locket up and shot it.

[Ash]

She had anger toward them.

[Elena]

So it's like you planted that, which, like, obviously you're not gonna be like, so you should kill your whole family. But you could at least go back to it and be like, did that break her a little bit.

[Paul Tremblay]

That's a little hardcore to have that shot out of your hand.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like having to hold a locket and have it shot out of your hand.

[Ash]

Well, and I think the painter said something to her, and again, we can't be sure that he did. But she finds a note when she's putting Drusilla to bed and he says something like, you have weird tendencies. So, like, please stop writing me.

[Paul Tremblay]

That's right. That's a good point.

[Ash]

So who knows? Was that real?

[Elena]

Could that be just Winifred trying to

[Ash]

justify the whole thing or trying to

[Elena]

be like, she's with me, like, this did happen.

[Ash]

That's why I think the end is so fun, because you really can't be sure whether Drusilla was part of it or if she wasn't.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, right. It's strange to be made to want to think, oh, Drusilla is going to carry on as like the next Victorian cycle to Electric Boogaloo.

[Ash]

Hey, it leaves it kind of open, you know, maybe Drusilla's story is next.

[Elena]

Who knows? And I don't know. Which would you prefer to be? Was she taking part in it or would you rather her have been?

[Ash]

I feel like I prefer her to take part in it in a weird way.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. There's the fun part of me, which I don't let out very often, that is rooting for that. But I think the more I think about. I was like, ah. I think it's more. Most of the stuff happened, but it's being refracted through Winnie and. And go towards more realistic interpretation.

[Elena]

But, yeah, she was probably chained up there. It makes sense.

[Ash]

It does make sense.

[Elena]

In the end, I feel like unless and again, unless she's like this, like, criminal mastermind and she, like, partied with her for a few days and then realized they were going to get caught and was like, well, I'LL just quickly do this. Well, you're going to believe that her

[Ash]

over me, they are related. So you do have to wonder, is there something. Are they both missing the same crew?

[Elena]

You know, then again, are they related? Because Mr. Pound said, that's not my daughter.

[Ash]

That's true. I think Mr. Pounds, which made me wonder too.

[Elena]

I'm like, is he just saying that to be an or?

[Ash]

I think so.

[Paul Tremblay]

Is that really not when he talks about being. She talks at different times about being observed and she's not sure quite by who. And maybe it's Drusilla. And for a while she thought it was Drusilla.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. I don't know. Interesting.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

There's a lot that you have to wonder.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

From Winnie's perspective.

[Paul Tremblay]

You mentioned people to hate before. Like, we haven't. I, I hate. I hated Andrew the most.

[Ash]

Oh, my God, I hate Andrew so much. And I was like, why don't we

[Elena]

get this eight year old child?

[Paul Tremblay]

Is he only eight?

[Ash]

Yeah, I think he's literally eight.

[Paul Tremblay]

My mom becomes bigger and older, but yeah, he's only. Yeah.

[Ash]

He walked in on the first day and he was like, screw you. This is how it's gonna go. Yeah. My last nanny was better than you. And I was like, you don't run stuff around here. Little Andrew.

[Elena]

And I think he was like licking food off of one of the nurse's fingers. And I was like, no, I'm not.

[Paul Tremblay]

No. Yeah, just, you know, Mr. Pound in training, like.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's exactly what it felt like.

[Ash]

That's the thing.

[Paul Tremblay]

Well, it's funny, you know, thinking of that because Lisa's a huge fan of like Jane Austen and other Victorian novels. I wonder, are you all Victorian readers? Austen, et cetera.

[Elena]

I'm curious, as someone who was a

[Paul Tremblay]

big Victorian novel reader, what they would think of voice, of the style, of the setup.

[Elena]

Yeah, that would be interesting actually.

[Ash]

Yeah. I haven't read a ton of that, so I thought it was really fun though.

[Elena]

I know, because I feel like Victorian novels usually like the ones I've read from like school and such.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I feel like they do present the Victorian age as like this very like fancy, whimsical and romantic time, which I'm sure it had elements of.

[Ash]

But like, this is grubby.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. I mean, I do think there's an element of like the manners. You know, Jane Austen was riffing on like the manners and using that for sure. Using that to represent the difference between the classes. As opposed to cyclists killing babies.

[Ash]

Right, Exactly.

[Paul Tremblay]

I think that there is that. That there is the manners component to it. Like, you know, the dinner that we talked about and just how Winnie is treated and you know, how she'll say things that probably in reality would have gotten her, like, fired right away, but, you know, for our benefit. That. That's funny. I don't know. Yeah.

[Ash]

I love the couple times where they'd be like, excuse me. And then she'd say something completely different. That was great.

[Elena]

Like when she says, are we not allowed to eat the children? Like, as she's like licking a calf head on, like a. I was like, what?

[Ash]

I also just love that everything that one ignored that she did. I think it was the first day that she was there, she bites into the calf's head.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's the part.

[Ash]

Is that what you're talking about?

[Elena]

And somebody finds her and she turns around and she's like, oh, we're not allowed to eat the children. I didn't know that. And they were just like, what?

[Ash]

They're like, okay, you're strange.

[Elena]

I love her. I just love how unhinged she is.

[Paul Tremblay]

And she was always weirdly ruder to the. Like her co workers.

[Ash]

Yeah, it was. Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Like, you know, she talked at times about, like, dreaming of being this is my forever family. Like, she says that a couple times.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Even though, you know, she has nothing but disdain for.

[Ash]

She also leaves.

[Paul Tremblay]

But there's still, like, she wants to

[Elena]

be part of something.

[Paul Tremblay]

I don't know if it's sometimes if it's humor or her. I don't know, like, I'm not 100% sure. Like, why. Yeah, that's what I meant. Like, earlier, it wasn't just like, you know, she's just, you know, she's just scything her way through the upper class.

[Ash]

Right.

[Paul Tremblay]

Like, there's no one is spared. Like, no. Which I think makes her really difficult.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

And even stranger, like, how much we enjoy her.

[Elena]

Yeah, I know. Because she talks about having, like, line, like shelves lined with dead babies at home.

[Ash]

As a child too.

[Elena]

As a child. And that, like, she had a full grown woman, like, outside dead. And she was like, she didn't fit on the shelf. And it was like, is that real? Like, did you really do that?

[Ash]

And I think it is.

[Elena]

I think it might be.

[Ash]

Yeah. I think one thing that we didn't touch on that I would love to hear, like, how you guys felt. Were you absolutely shocked when you found out that Mr. Pounds was her father? And do you believe that he actually was?

[Paul Tremblay]

I'd say yes. And yes.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Paul Tremblay]

I think that's very believable. Even, you know, of other stuff is of her sort of creation.

[Ash]

I think the same thing.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. But I was shocked.

[Paul Tremblay]

But I was. Yeah.

[Ash]

I got to that point when it was like, John Pounds and my mouth literally dropped. And then you have to wonder. You're like, okay. Like, is this the Mr. Pounds? So then I kept reading, and it was then confirmed. I was like, holy shit.

[Elena]

Yeah, I didn't see that coming. And she went in there with a mission. So, like, when it happened, when it was revealed, I was like, oh, like, this makes sense why she went in there with, like, a mission when she

[Ash]

had it, like, arranged that she got that job, too.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

I thought that was crazy.

[Elena]

I know. It was wild.

[Ash]

I thought that was a really good. Just like. Like, all of a sudden, just like, oh, my God.

[Elena]

And it was weird, too, like, going back to, like, Drusilla. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's weird that Drusilla did survive this whole thing if she wasn't a part of it, because I'm like, sure. Did you save her? Like, did you see something that you like, and you kind of see throughout the book that she does kind of try to, like, guide Drusilla a little bit more than, like, Andrew or anyone else? I'm like, I wonder what that was. Like, what that connection was.

[Ash]

I wonder if it was, like, the unwanted daughter thing. Because she has the unwanted daughter. And then they're always like. Whenever she brings up Drusilla to Mr. Pounds, he's like, yeah, whatever. Andrew, like, he's gonna take over the. The name, the family name. So maybe it was that.

[Elena]

And, like, he gets all, like, the classes and all the people coming to teach him things. And, you know, she's just gonna learn needlework.

[Ash]

And get married.

[Elena]

Yeah. To get married. So maybe that is it.

[Ash]

Maybe.

[Elena]

But I think it kind of lends itself even more to the ambiguity of the whole thing. Because now I'm like, well, I don't know. Maybe she was chained to that whole thing the whole time. Or maybe she was part of it. I don't know. But I also love that this has. Like, there were. I was reading it out loud, like, certain parts of it to my husband last night, because I was just, like, laughing at certain parts. He's like, what is this? So I'd read him a line every once in a while, and he was like, what is this story going on? But I think it has such a good mix of pure horror. Like, the end is horrific. The baby being Killed. Horrific. And, like, them. Even them eating, but so funny. It's like. But there's real comedy in there, too. It's, like, such a good mix, and I feel like that's really hard to accomplish. It's a tough balance because you're either it's gonna go too horrific and you're gonna be like, the comedy doesn't fit here and it makes it weird and I'm uncomfortable with it, or it's gonna go too goofy. And then the horror feels goofy too. And neither of these felt goofy. It felt like a perfect mix. And it reminds me, have you watched Widow's Bay?

[Paul Tremblay]

Yes. Oh, yes.

[Ash]

I haven't started it yet.

[Elena]

I've been trying. I'm, like, trying to recruit people to watch Widow's Bay now. It gave me the cause. I think that show. That's how I've been describing people, is like, the horror in it is genuinely scary at times, but it is so funny. And the funny isn't overly goofy where it waters down the horror of it. So it gave me that.

[Paul Tremblay]

It's a great point. And other interviews. I like horror comedies, but I think it's really hard to sort of say what you described is not to have the source of the comedy be the horror. That's what most horror comedies are. It's really fine. Hard to find in my mind. Or comedies that are both scary and funny.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Especially in terms of film. And I agree. This book does it. Widows Bay is doing it.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And I think it's. And I was. When we first started watching Widow's Bay, I was like, oh, my God, they nailed this combo. And again, like you were saying, you just, like, don't really see that work ever. And so I was like, oh, this is like a diamond in the rough. Like, holy shit.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And then reading this right after we started watching this, I was like, how have I come across two pieces of media that have done this so well in the same, like, two weeks band?

[Ash]

It's the horror renaissance.

[Elena]

It's the horror renaissance. It is.

[Ash]

That's what makes me so excited for this to now be translated into film. I feel like it's gonna be really fun.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

On screen.

[Paul Tremblay]

I'm nervous.

[Elena]

I know. I'm nervous. I'm scared. I'm excited.

[Ash]

Cautiously optimistic.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic.

[Elena]

But we always have this.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yes.

[Elena]

If the film does not work, we have this.

[Ash]

Well, and the fact that you said she wrote the screenplay, that gives me a lot of optimism.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

All right. Now I think we have to get to what I think you might have come for, which is the Rapid fire. Would you rather.

[Paul Tremblay]

All right.

[Ash]

Kind of slasher edition.

[Elena]

Yeah, we got a mix.

[Ash]

Yeah, we have a whole mix in here.

[Elena]

Like, New England stuff in here.

[Ash]

There's Victorian central. There's some of your. Some of your work in here.

[Paul Tremblay]

All right, all right.

[Ash]

So, number one, would you rather be trapped in a mirror manor with Winifred for 24 hours or trapped in a group chat with every villain character from your novels?

[Paul Tremblay]

I think I'll go with the group chat just because I feel like I won't die. I might be really annoyed and disturbed, but I think I wouldn't last very long with Winifred in the house.

[Ash]

Fair enough. And you can always throw on do not disturb, you know.

[Elena]

That's valid. Yeah, I think that's valid.

[Ash]

I think that's what I would do.

[Paul Tremblay]

I'd be afraid she would kill me and replace me with other Paul. And people would be like, oh, yeah,

[Ash]

other Paul with new Paul. There's original Paul and then there's new Paul.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

See, I hate. Like, I'm one of those people that people will text me and I'll look at it and be like, oh, I should answer that. And then I just don't for, like, five days. And then I'm like, I'm so sorry. And it's like, I'm just bad at it, and I get overwhelmed and, like, executive dysfunction. So I feel like being in a group chat is my nightmare.

[Ash]

Well, and the villains in your book might kill you.

[Elena]

They might just. I don't want to listen to them. So I think. And I don't know, I feel like me and Winifred for 24 hours, we might be okay.

[Paul Tremblay]

Could be a cool hang.

[Elena]

I feel like we might be.

[Ash]

You could have, like, a Drusilla and Winifred kind of vibe.

[Elena]

I just want to believe that.

[Paul Tremblay]

Would there be other people in the house for her to kill just in case, or is it just you?

[Ash]

That's a good one on one on one on one.

[Elena]

So you do have to survive that, because she is gonna have to go 24 hours.

[Ash]

She started off pretty chill.

[Elena]

She did.

[Paul Tremblay]

Give her a calf's head.

[Elena]

Yeah, there you go. Let her lick you every once in a while.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Give her your earlobe.

[Elena]

That's all you need.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah, I think it's fine.

[Elena]

You know what? Yeah, I'm.

[Ash]

In reality, I'm going Winnie.

[Elena]

I mean, I don't want her to like me, but. All right, so the next one is. Would you rather Have a ghost follow you forever. Just follow you around. Or a book reviewer follow you forever.

[Paul Tremblay]

Oh man. I think I'll have to go with the ghost. I mean that'll be very scary at night though. But like, I don't know how you do it. But like I actively avoid reading any Goodreads or Amazon. There lies madness. So I mean, if you're talking like, oh, like a. I don't know, like a New York Times review is following me around, I feel like they might be a little bit more polite, but I don't know, maybe they wouldn't harangue me as much.

[Elena]

We're making it a random Internet reviewer.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. If it's random Internet, then there's no choice. I. I would do the ghost.

[Elena]

Yes. 100. I agree with you. 100.

[Ash]

I'd pick a ghost too. Just because I think that's fun.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And I feel like ghosts have followed me in my life. So.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Nothing new here.

[Elena]

And I feel like you could eventually become friends. Yeah. The ghost. Like you could, you could have a rapport at some point.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You get used to their tendencies. It's like mermaid.

[Paul Tremblay]

I'm sure I'd annoy him because I'd start calling him Casper or something and they'd get pissed off and they'd be

[Ash]

like, maybe that's your bond to them.

[Paul Tremblay]

You know, that's true.

[Elena]

That's your thing.

[Ash]

All right. Would you rather receive one life changing, terrifying supernatural visitation, like earth shattering?

[Elena]

Just one.

[Ash]

Just one. Or would you rather receive one brutal Goodreads review every morning?

[Paul Tremblay]

So I have to review it. I have to read it.

[Ash]

Just one, every morning. Which is a probably tough way, but

[Elena]

like a really brutal.

[Paul Tremblay]

That's a hard start. Yeah. Geez. Maybe. I mean, so like 98% of my day, I'm a card carrying skeptic atheist. Don't believe in anything. But there's like the 2% where I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm totally freaked out the next day. I'm like, paul, are you such an idiot? So I tell people that I don't believe, but I don't want to be proven wrong. So even though I'm leaning towards the first thing because in some ways that would actually still also be really cool.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Whoa. There's this.

[Ash]

There it is. Yeah, there it is.

[Paul Tremblay]

This exists. So I think I would go with the first, even though it'll probably scare the shit out of me. And I'd be like, yeah, because it's

[Elena]

going to be brutal.

[Ash]

But at least it's Just one. It's not a bad review every day for the rest of your life.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You know, that'll get you down.

[Elena]

That's the thing. I feel like with proper therapy and help, I can get past a brutal supernatural experience that I can't explain.

[Ash]

That's true.

[Elena]

But having it happen, like a brutal Goodreads review every morning for the rest of my life, I feel like that would take years.

[Paul Tremblay]

That's too close to home. I mean, because I could do that easily.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's the thing. I could do that right now. I don't want to.

[Ash]

Yeah, don't do that.

[Elena]

Year two. Yeah. No, no, no. So this one I'm really interested in. Would you rather be able to write a first draft in one week or

[Paul Tremblay]

like Stephen Graham Jones?

[Elena]

Yeah, just like, boom. Exactly like boom. Here we go.

[Paul Tremblay]

That's how cool he writes. Yeah.

[Elena]

Would you like to be able to revise a manuscript perfectly on one pass?

[Paul Tremblay]

I'll do the one pass.

[Elena]

One pass.

[Ash]

One pass on the manuscript.

[Elena]

I was hoping you would answer that way, because I also feel that way.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah. Because I'm fine with the first draft taking forever.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. I mean, as hard as it can be, I love how life sneaks in. It usually takes me 12 to 15 months to come up with a draft. And, oh, it's kind of fun. The book gets better. By living with that book for that time, things happen. Things that I never would have in that week. I never would have come up with. It took that time. I think I'm thinking this too realistically, but. Yeah.

[Elena]

No, it's true.

[Ash]

That's a realistic one.

[Elena]

It makes sense because it kind of dips into. If something's happening that week, the writing's gonna change a little bit, and the story might change with it or a character might change with it. So I feel the same way. I think I don't mind sitting with a draft for a while and tinkering with it. Once it comes to the first passes and the edits, that's when I'm like, through this. So definitely that one.

[Ash]

Me, too. Yeah.

[Elena]

You know.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So the next one. This is also a really good one, I feel. Would you rather encounter a ghost from 1692 Salem or the ghost of a really salty sea captain from Cape Cod?

[Ash]

We're saying salty personality. Yeah.

[Elena]

And maybe he's salty.

[Ash]

And probably as well.

[Elena]

He's probably physically salty as well.

[Paul Tremblay]

You know, my knee jerk is to go with the salty person. But I think I would become really annoying because I know I would just start Talking like them. Like, it's so bad. Like, if I talk to British friends for more than five minutes, I start. I'm not doing it on purpose, and I feel like such an asshole. It just starts happening.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

But I think maybe for the comedy of it, the salty sea captain.

[Ash]

I think that's.

[Paul Tremblay]

Then I would have a new impersonation.

[Elena]

There you go. You could just slip into. Every once in a while, I would pick that.

[Paul Tremblay]

I grew up in Beverly, next to Salem, so I'm like. Like, I mean, I love that area, but, like, give me the new. Give me the new guy.

[Ash]

Yeah. 1692 ghost just sounds really scary. They probably really, like, faced a lot in their life, so.

[Paul Tremblay]

And I wouldn't understand what they're saying, like, how they talk. Have you ever seen the movie the Witch? Like, you know, I love that movie, but, like, I don't know what that.

[Elena]

You'd have to constantly be like, what?

[Ash]

And then you might start talking like that.

[Elena]

That's true. See, I might. Regardless of all of that, I might pick the 1692 ghost.

[Ash]

That just makes sense for you.

[Elena]

Because I just want to know. Like, I think I'd be like, sit down. Tell me it all, like, what happened here?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I need to know. I want to know everything.

[Ash]

That's fair.

[Elena]

I also want to. I want to know, like, are there still bodies under, you know, Gallows Hill.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

Burial Point.

[Paul Tremblay]

You're still thinking Widow's Bay. You want to hang out with Hamish.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Paul Tremblay]

The Warren guy.

[Elena]

Yes. I want to know, like, tell me. Tell me what it is. Like, we haven't used. They haven't figured out if there's still bodies buried in the area. And I'm like, you got to tell me. So.

[Ash]

Yeah. You'd ask about, like, Giles Corey.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. I'd be like, what was he like? He seems kind of. He was kind of a dick.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, iconic at the same time, you know?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah. I'd want to know all of that.

[Ash]

I get that. I'm going sea captain.

[Elena]

I get it.

[Ash]

Yeah. Just fun.

[Elena]

Yeah. You know, that's fine. So I'll get the 1692 person.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Salty sea captain.

[Paul Tremblay]

And we'll sing sea songs.

[Elena]

Yeah. I love it. And we'll all get together and we can learn things.

[Ash]

Compare.

[Elena]

Notice.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. All right. This one's kind of heady. Would you rather have definitive proof that ghosts do exist or definitive proof that they do not?

[Elena]

Which we kind of touched upon, but

[Ash]

we did sort of

[Paul Tremblay]

the first. Again, the first one would be more fun. Like. Like, I Would say, like, I don't have to prove they don't exist. I mean, to me that's almost like the assumption. Like you would have to prove the other way, right?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. I mean, I think you'd be like the most famous person on earth and could totally cash in on proving. I'm just thinking, I want money. I'm a full time rider now. I need money. I'm desperate. So, yeah, let me prove the ghosts and you know, write four tell alls.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

On it.

[Ash]

Or interviews. Like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elena]

Experience.

[Ash]

I want proof that they exist simply because that's just. I don't want to live in a world where they don't exist.

[Elena]

That's how I feel.

[Ash]

Fun. That. What's the fun in that?

[Elena]

Because I always say the same thing. Like, I'm a very healthy skeptic at times, but I. I believe. I want to believe more that they do exist.

[Ash]

We've had so many experiences that it's crazy to me that you're still skeptical.

[Elena]

Well, there's. I try. My first knee jerk instinct is to try to explain it with some kind.

[Ash]

We grew up in a haunted house

[Elena]

and I try to explain it. And sometimes I can, but sometimes I can't.

[Ash]

So many things in that house we grew up in. Inexplicable.

[Elena]

Yeah. There's definitely been a lot of things. And that's why I'm more over on the side of like. Okay, yeah, I think there are something. I don't know what.

[Paul Tremblay]

But so like, to. Not to. Well, when I'm always posed that question, I feel like I disappoint people. I say, yeah, like, you know, because I've never experienced anything and.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

And I've always said I feel like if I were to experience it wouldn't be like slimer from Ghostbusters.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

It would be really subtle.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Paul Tremblay]

And just off and like, as time passes, I would be. I would want to explain it away.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

And that would just be the way it would go. Yeah. So. But anyway, I don't know if that adds anything. I was just thinking about, I think.

[Elena]

Yeah. Well. And I had like. Like one thing that happened in our house growing up that I, I to this day, like cannot explain. And that's the one that really like got me. Like, what was that? We had like, my house used to be like an old farmhouse. So it's got all this like crazy history and it's super old.

[Ash]

We found like weird shit buried.

[Elena]

There's always weird shit buried there. And the primary bedroom, like they added my Parents added onto the house. But the primary bedroom, like, used to be my bedroom. And it always had weird shit going on in it. But again, I was like, it's fine. Nothing's weird here. And it became my parents, like, art studio when I kind of, like, got older and I moved into another room.

[Ash]

That room is scary as hell, and it's scary now.

[Elena]

And we had, like. It was when we had which, like, rip computer rooms where it was like, the room where the computer lived, they used to shut the door every time. And you had to go past the primary bedroom, the old one, to get to the computer room. And one night I was walking past it to go to the computer room, and the door was shut. And something from behind the door hit the door from inside so hard that I jumped across the hall, like, into the wall. My dog jumped up and was like, what the hell was that?

[Paul Tremblay]

Whoa.

[Elena]

I think my. My dad heard it and was like,

[Ash]

what did you just do?

[Elena]

Like, what was that? And I was like, I have no idea what that is. And it was in there. He opened the door. Nothing was against the door. It sounded like somebody took. Took fists and slammed them against the door, and it was right when I walked by.

[Paul Tremblay]

That's terrifying.

[Elena]

And that's the one that I'm like, I don't know how that happened in that same room.

[Paul Tremblay]

That was a good one.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That same room. I used to spend the night in that room. If, like, you had people over or something, I would sleep in that room. And I was on an air mattress watching the Disney Channel, probably. I was like 10 years old, and there was this Tupperware container thing full of old magazines, and it was probably like 2 o' clock in the morning, and it just slid across the room with, like, crazy force. I screamed so loud, my grandparents came running. You came running?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And nobody. There was no way to reenact that or anything.

[Elena]

So that house tilted all of a sudden.

[Paul Tremblay]

No.

[Ash]

Because it was so forceful. That room has weird energy.

[Paul Tremblay]

So see, if you tell me that and then say you have to go stay overnight in that room, I would be like, hell, no.

[Ash]

I never slept in that room again.

[Paul Tremblay]

Even though I say I don't believe, like, stay in this purportedly haunted house, I am not going to do that.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

So I guess on some level, I fear. I believe.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

See, you have a healthy fear of them.

[Ash]

I feel. Most skeptics feel that way, you know.

[Elena]

Yeah. Healthy fears there.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

All right, so bringing it back to the Bridgewater Triangle. If you were dropped into the Hockamak swamp just right into the middle of it. Would you rather find giant cryptid type footprints everywhere or perfectly normal human footprints that should not be there?

[Paul Tremblay]

I would. I was gonna say cryptid, but then my daughter would just make fun of me because she was. When she was a lot younger, she used to love Bigfoot stuff. There's no such thing as Bigfoot. She gets so mad at me. What would I ra. I mean, I guess I would rather see the cryptid. I mean, that would be so cool to be wrong and be like, oh, wow, there is this weird giant. A Bigfoot thing that runs around and who wants to.

[Elena]

Scary.

[Ash]

I was gonna say, who wants to come across a serial killer in the woods?

[Elena]

Like, I don't want to come across a random person in the middle of the Hockmuk swamp.

[Ash]

That's my worst nightmare.

[Elena]

I'd much rather run into Bigfoot.

[Ash]

Just be one with Bigfoot at that point.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Truly.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like, take on their customs and everything.

[Elena]

I'm ready.

[Ash]

Yeah, let's go. I love it.

[Paul Tremblay]

Start knocking on trees with rocks. Communicate with them really long.

[Ash]

They're crazy with it.

[Elena]

We could bond.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Hell, yeah.

[Ash]

That's what I'm doing.

[Elena]

I like it.

[Ash]

All right. Would you rather have Winifred plan your wedding or host your funeral?

[Elena]

Oh.

[Paul Tremblay]

Oh, geez. Well, it seems like family and loved ones are both in danger, in jeopardy in both scenarios.

[Elena]

That's very true.

[Ash]

Oh, at least she doesn't have to be at your wedding.

[Paul Tremblay]

I'm gonna be really selfish. I'd say play my funeral because I'm already dead.

[Ash]

Yeah, there you go.

[Paul Tremblay]

Like, if it was my wedding, there's a chance that I could be one

[Elena]

of, like, the Red Wedding. Yeah, that's true.

[Paul Tremblay]

Right? I want my wedding to be a bummer. My. My funeral is already gonna be a bummer, so she could just make it more of a bummer.

[Ash]

She might live.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

[Elena]

And you just don't have to deal with the aftermath. So it's nice to not have to clean up after her.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You know, I feel that too.

[Ash]

I feel her wedding plans would be a little too macabre for me.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

So she can do my funeral.

[Elena]

I agree. So back to some ghosties. Would you rather be haunted by a puritan ghost who judges everything you do or a Victorian ghost who constantly corrects your etiquette? Both horrific.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, you might go Victorian, because the etiquette stuff doesn't bother me. Probably much of the chagrin of some people that know me. It'd be easy to laugh off that ghost. The etiquette ghost. Yeah.

[Ash]

I feel like Ma is kind of an etiquette ghost.

[Elena]

I was gonna say etiquette followed by the mom. Who is that?

[Ash]

So I'll just take that. I'll be used to it.

[Elena]

Same. Because the Puritan ghost would make me crazy. Like, again, I'll take the 1692 Puritan ghost that, like, hangs for a second and just tells me things. You gotta go after that.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You can't.

[Paul Tremblay]

And I would. I mean, just to take the logic out further, like, if the Puritan ghost is telling me not to do things, I said, well, if there's a Puritan ghost, maybe, you know, the God is their God. Like, maybe, shit, I shouldn't be doing this stuff.

[Elena]

So there you go.

[Paul Tremblay]

Mess with my head.

[Elena]

That's true. Oh, that's true.

[Ash]

That's a really good point.

[Paul Tremblay]

I can ignore the etiquette, but, like, Puritan's like, you're going to go to hell if you do this, this and this.

[Elena]

You're like, maybe I am.

[Ash]

That just becomes, like, ocd.

[Elena]

That becomes too existential for me, and I would start losing my mind, I think, for sure.

[Ash]

Yeah. Victorian etiquette ghost, for sure.

[Elena]

Yeah. And after reading this book, you could just be like, you're gross.

[Ash]

So, yeah.

[Elena]

You have both.

[Ash]

I know about it.

[Elena]

Why aren't you telling me this?

[Ash]

Did you unwrap a mummy?

[Elena]

Yeah. Unwrap a mummy.

[Ash]

All right. You are dropped into the middle of the Bridgewater Triangle at midnight. You can choose one companion, a ghost hunter, a cryptozoologist, a priest, a witch, or Stephen King. Who do you choose?

[Paul Tremblay]

Stephen and I have exchanged a bunch of emails, but I've never met him in person. It'd be kind of fun to be in the woods with Steven.

[Ash]

Hell, yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Hope he's okay with that. I don't know if he would.

[Elena]

Does he want to be in the.

[Ash]

He gets popped in there no matter what. Yeah.

[Elena]

He's just there.

[Ash]

Yeah. Yeah. Steven.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah, that'd be.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely for sure.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That's your choice, too.

[Elena]

That was my choice. I was like, because I could be my own ghost hunter.

[Ash]

Like, I don't.

[Paul Tremblay]

I don't.

[Elena]

That. A cryptozoologist, I feel like, would just be like, oh, look, that's Bigfoot. And I'd be like, no, I know.

[Ash]

Like, I've done my own research.

[Elena]

That's a pukwaji. I know. I've researched this.

[Ash]

I'm from here.

[Elena]

A priest. No, no, thank you. A witch.

[Ash]

We are.

[Elena]

Yeah. I was like, I could be my own witch, so that's fine. And then I was like, stephen King in the middle of the Bridgewater Triangle. Or, like, the Hockomock Swamp.

[Ash]

I was like, just start writing together.

[Elena]

I was gonna say, then maybe we could be like, let's come up with a story together based on your experience. Yeah. Just to have a hang with Stephen King in a weird space.

[Paul Tremblay]

I mean, Stephen hears us thinking he's gonna start writing Misery, too.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

It's like, oh, my God.

[Elena]

We're like, we wanna be in the middle of the woods with you.

[Ash]

Yeah. God damn it.

[Elena]

It's like, oh, help. I love it. Yeah. That's. What. What is yours. Oh, good call. Yeah.

[Ash]

I feel the same as you. I don't. I can be a ghost hunter. Like, all the same reasoning. And I've never met Stephen King, so, yeah, why not?

[Elena]

I'd hang with him.

[Ash]

I have a lot of questions. I want to know about Mambo Number five.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I really became obsessed with that song.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Paul Tremblay]

What if he, like, tried to be, like, a real woodsman? Was really bad at it. It's like, hey, you know, we can eat this mushroom. Trust me, Stephen King. Like, oh, my God.

[Elena]

Like, trust me, it's Steph.

[Paul Tremblay]

Some potential rat falls to it. I suppose there are.

[Elena]

He'd be silly because I might believe him. Like, if he ends the thing with, trust me, I'm Stephen King. I might be like, yeah, you are. Right. So you are Stephen King.

[Ash]

Well, then you just be tripping in the woods. That's kind of fun with Stephen King. Yeah. Who can say they did that?

[Elena]

There we go.

[Paul Tremblay]

Definitely would choose him over Grady Hendrix. Like, Grady would be.

[Ash]

Of course, Grady. We're not plopping.

[Paul Tremblay]

He used to be complaining about, like, bugs ask you to hold his blazer.

[Ash]

I know he's not used to New England.

[Paul Tremblay]

Like, his, like, lime color blazer might help us see, like, work our way

[Elena]

through it could be like a. That could be.

[Ash]

That could be advantageous.

[Elena]

That could.

[Ash]

You know, he's gonna be.

[Elena]

He's gonna listen to this and be like, damn, I thought we had fun on that.

[Paul Tremblay]

I know.

[Ash]

Well, I guess I'll be joining them again.

[Elena]

Real nice.

[Ash]

Barring them for my next event.

[Elena]

Well, speaking of Grady.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Last question.

[Elena]

Would you rather fight one Stephen King clown? Pennywise, essentially, or one Grady Hendrix possessed IKEA product or horse store? Product.

[Paul Tremblay]

I think I'd go with the horror store. I don't know. I think the clown is, you know, too Morphy.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

I've read Horror Store was a while ago. I don't have as much a memory as what they could do besides, like, suck me into the store. Into, like, the other dimension. I don't know. But I could. I feel like I could fight a bookcase name. What's it called? Like, Benny or something like that.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. It's hard to be scared of.

[Elena]

Of Benny.

[Paul Tremblay]

Of Benny.

[Elena]

That's true.

[Paul Tremblay]

If that's my. I have some of those in my house.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

Now I'm gonna look at them askance

[Elena]

and put your dukes up. I see that. I thought this was easy, and I think it still kind of is.

[Ash]

No, it's easy for me.

[Elena]

Like, Pennywise is too much like every fear of yours. He can just become so, like. No. And especially, like the big spider. No, thank you. But I'm also like. It's also one of my biggest fears to be locked in an ikea. Like when. When you get lost in that loop and you can't find the right way.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's.

[Elena]

That's horror.

[Ash]

See, for me, I'm gonna find the meatballs. You are gonna find the meatballs. So I'll survive.

[Elena]

That's actually smart.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Elena]

They have cinnamon buns, too. I think they do. So that. Okay. Yeah, they have Good stuff. I'll fight Grady Hen products. Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That is survival.

[Ash]

Yeah. It scares their. Pennywise scares the.

[Elena]

Yeah, me. So I think it's colloquially. I think it. Is it. Yeah. I think everybody thinks of it as it.

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

It's so true. But. Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That's our. Would you rathers.

[Ash]

You survived it.

[Elena]

You killed it.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah. I think I got too mathy with it. With my logic.

[Ash]

No, I like that you're a math teacher.

[Elena]

That's smart.

[Ash]

You're only recently retired. It's not really that out of you.

[Paul Tremblay]

I haven't gotten rid of it yet.

[Elena]

It's gonna leech out every once in a while. And honestly, Grady got very into it as well.

[Ash]

He thought through them.

[Paul Tremblay]

I know. I heard him. He asked for extras.

[Elena]

Yeah. He was like, let's go.

[Ash]

We had to get them on the fly. I know.

[Elena]

We were like, oh, my God.

[Paul Tremblay]

Oh, shit.

[Ash]

We have more.

[Paul Tremblay]

All right.

[Elena]

I was like, shit. But I think that went well. I think we all survived that. Hell, yeah.

[Paul Tremblay]

No, no. This was a blast.

[Elena]

Thank you for being here.

[Ash]

Thanks for joining us.

[Paul Tremblay]

My absolute pleasure.

[Elena]

This was so much fun. We've been so excited for this.

[Paul Tremblay]

Oh, same. Well, thank you.

[Elena]

Thank you. And everybody read Paul's books.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yes.

[Elena]

Please go watch the adaptations they're amazing. And Steve and King, don't send us a cease and desist.

[Ash]

We just want to be friends, Steve.

[Paul Tremblay]

Just in the woods.

[Elena]

Yeah, we just want to hang in the woods with you. That's all. Okay.

[Ash]

You can go anytime.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's all. So before we go, debit Dreaming of Electric sheep coming out June 30th. Go get it. You heard what it's about. It's going to be awesome. And Paul, if you have anything else to plug or you want to further plug, I guess.

[Paul Tremblay]

I don't know when this podcast is going to run, but on July 2, since we mentioned Grady, he and I will be at the Strand New York City bookstore trying to sell this book.

[Ash]

Go there.

[Paul Tremblay]

I've tried to convince him. I'll wear the suit and he'll wear a T shirt with tattoos.

[Elena]

That would be amazing.

[Ash]

We should wear the lime green blazer. Luke.

[Elena]

I love that.

[Ash]

I love it.

[Elena]

So go check them out. Go see where Paul's gonna be and go get his books.

[Ash]

Or else.

[Paul Tremblay]

Yeah, we'll fight you.

[Ash]

All right. Well, guys, thank you for listening. We hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird, but not so weird that you don't go by Paul's books.

[Elena]

Do it.

[Ash]

But you better. Thank you again to Ashley for sponsoring today's episode and for sending us this gorgeous, gorgeous furniture. Ashley is the largest furniture store brand in North America and they're focused on helping people create comfortable, functional and a stylish home or pod lab that they can feel proud of at a price that feels accessible and reassuring. With eye catching designs like the ones that you saw in my pod lab, Ashley can bring a balance of timeless appeal and modern trends to your home. Stain resistance, performance fabric options that are durable, easy to clean and stain resistant with machine washable cushion covers are great for anyone who's ever been worried about owning a white sofa. Plus, Ashley provides fast, reliable white glove delivery right to your room of choice. Visit your local Ashley store or head to Ashley.com to find your style.