Sallie the Man-Hater

Summary

Morbid Podcast Summary

Episode: "Sallie the Man-Hater"

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina (Melena) Urquhart
Release Date: October 27, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Morbid delves into the infamous haunting case known as "The Sallie House," focusing on its most notorious legacy: “Sallie the Man-Hater.” With their signature mix of true crime, spooky history, and candid humor, Ash and Alaina recount the chilling experiences of Deb and Tony Pickman, a Kansas couple whose move into a charming old house rapidly spirals into a paranormal nightmare—filled with catatonic animals, vanishing toys, ghostly apparitions, and a particular hostility towards men. The episode stands out for its deep research, wild storytelling, and laugh-out-loud commentary, balanced by genuine empathy for the people involved.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

Morning Vibes & Catch-Up (01:28–04:32)

• The hosts kick things off in a light-hearted, energetic morning mood, discussing podcasting routines and teasing their upcoming "Twilight" bonus episode.
• Reflection on how recent, more relaxed episodes have echoed their 2018 "mini Morbid" vibe.
• Memorable banter about rotating alarm sounds, the dangers of ruining songs by using them as wake-up alarms, and "Team Charlie" from Twilight.

Introduction to The Sallie House (07:44–09:21)

• Transition to the main topic: The Sallie House haunting in Atchison, Kansas.
• Shoutouts to Sam & Colby’s YouTube investigation of the house, acknowledging its fame in paranormal circles.

The Pickmans’ Backstory (08:56–11:18)

• Deb, at age 29, had already been through three marriages before settling in Atchison with her soon-to-be-husband Tony.
• "Not a day passed that we did not call or see each other." – Deb’s description of their whirlwind romance. [09:59]
• The couple quickly married after Deb became pregnant, moving into a promising Victorian rental in December 1992.

Early Signs of Trouble (12:20–15:26)

• The sense of peace is upended by odd electrical disturbances: flickering lights (in a house with no dimmers) and a TV that switches on and off by itself.
  • "I would be like, old house," remarks Ash, highlighting the family's initial skepticism. [12:57]
• The pet animals are especially disturbed, with their dog Sasha refusing to enter the soon-to-be nursery, standing guard and growling until mysteriously calming down after furniture is moved in.

First Major Paranormal Incidents (16:15–19:26)

• 3:30am Disturbance: Deb, in her third trimester, is awakened by a blood-curdling scream and thumping noises. She’s then struck by an unseen force—initially dismissed as cats causing nighttime chaos.
• Electronic kitchen timers reset or go off without being set, a phenomenon Ash sharply labels, "such a dick move" by whatever (or whoever) is responsible. [20:35]

The Toy Circles (21:00–27:08)

• Deb’s sister Karen witnesses toys in the nursery repeatedly rearranged in outward-facing circles, despite all doors and windows locked.
  • “You move out that very day.” – Ash’s visceral reaction. [22:35]
• The family initially blames Tony’s prankster brother George—with increasing desperation—until the phenomenon repeats within minutes of resetting the toys, convincing them it’s truly paranormal.

Attempts to Rationalize (27:34–32:08)

• Consultations with family and neighbors fail to uncover any normal explanation.
• Past tenants report unexplained smells and noises; a former child resident had an “imaginary” friend named Sally. The same name is relayed by both the Pickmans’ family acquaintances and a remote psychic, solidifying the legend.

Enter the Medium and Intensifying Haunting (39:30–47:45)

• Larry, Tony’s analytical brother, arranges for Barbara, a psychic in California, to “read” the house. She confirms a child spirit named Sally (~5–13 years old) is present and advises establishing house rules for her.
  • When Barbara and a friend independently receive the name "Sally," the hosts point out how unlikely it would be for both to simply invent the same name. ["That would be a wild moment to experience!” – Ash, 41:03]
• After Tony is violently scratched on the back (classic “three claw marks” trope), it’s clear the activity has become aggressive—especially toward Tony.

Escalation and Psychological Toll (47:46–59:26)

• Activity intensifies: Tony is pulled from bed, left with finger-shaped bruises, and starts feeling irrational, intrusive anger, sometimes directed toward Deb.
• Deb’s enthusiasm for “communicating” with Sally grows as Tony becomes more unnerved—hearing disembodied voices (“like three grown-up people talking at once” [58:21]) and enduring significant sleep deprivation.
• The hosts reflect on cold chills and physical sensations they feel while recounting, humorously suspecting the story is bringing ghostly energy into their own studio.

Paranormal Investigation and Theories (63:34–68:04)

• The renowned psychic investigator Peter James visits, identifying two spirits: Sally (child) and a much more powerful, protective presence—thought to be Sally’s mother, a Black woman and former domestic worker who was also the doctor's mistress.
  • The suggestion: Sally died of pneumonia after an appendix surgery, and the “man-hating” attacks likely originate from her mother, bitter over her situation and loss.
• Tony's mental health improves dramatically after moving out, supporting the idea that the house, or its entities, were affecting him.

Legacy & Modern Sallie House (72:28–74:46)

• The Sallie House is now one of the top haunted attractions in America, open for tours and overnight stays.
• Urban legends about Sally (including appendicitis origin stories) have multiplied.
• Property values have soared—and crashed—as the house’s infamy grows.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Pet’s Reaction:
  "That room was chock full of bad shit."
  – Melena [15:05]

• On the Circle of Toys:
  “You move out that very day. I don't care where you live. Next door with your sister.”
  – Ash [22:35]

• Explaining the Family’s Coping:
  “They were just convincing themselves… George. It was George. It was so funny.”
  – Melena [23:49]

• After the Bear Faces the Wall:
  "No, not Blair Witch style. You're gonna find some eyeballs and a cloth.”
  – Ash [34:33]

• On Scratches:
  “Remember Sam and Colby got scratched… they men. They men.”
  – Melena [44:05]

• Tony’s Ordeal:
  “All I could think about was evil thoughts. All I could think was, I just want to hurt her.”
  – Tony, relayed by Melena [68:39]

• Hosts Reacting to Paranormal Cold:
  "I said to Elena, was it getting progressively colder in here while you were telling this story? ... That feels paranormal.”
  – Ash [58:40]

• On Who the Real "Man-Hater" Is:
  “As a result of Tony’s experiences, the ghost would go on to become known as Sally the Man Hater… But it's probably the mom protecting.”
  – Melena [70:06]

• Spontaneous Studio Poltergeist:
  [Loud crash, glass falls off a shelf]
  “That was really fucking spooky. Did that come off of the shelf?”
  – Ash & Melena [70:41–71:19]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction to Sallie House: [07:44]
• First major haunting event (Deb attacked on couch): [16:15]
• Circle of toys in nursery: [21:00]
• Toys return to circle, dismiss George theory: [23:37–24:32]
• Medium Barbara identifies Sally: [39:30]
• Tony is scratched, attacks grow violent: [44:04]
• Tony’s sleep paralysis, intrusive thoughts: [57:05–58:35]
• Peter James’ investigation and theory: [63:34–67:31]
• Legacy: commercial haunted house, Sallie House “man-hater” lore: [72:28–74:46]

---

Tone & Flow

The episode is a rollercoaster: playful and candid during side-notes or dark humor, yet serious and empathetic when describing the Pickmans’ ordeal. Personal anecdotes, tangents, and even real-time spooky happenings in the Morbid studio (a glass crashes unexpectedly) add depth and relatability.

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Closing Thoughts

Morbid’s take on the Sallie House blends rich paranormal lore, thoughtful psychological insight, and whip-smart banter. The hosts blend empathy for the haunted family with their signature wisecracking. Whether or not you believe in ghosts, you’ll be left with chills—and maybe thinking twice about buying a quaint Victorian with a "history."

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Recommended:

• Watch Sam & Colby's “Our Demonic Encounter at Haunted Sallie House” for more real-life investigations ([08:50], [74:18]).
• Visit the Sallie House (if you dare), or try one of the tours run in Atchison.
• Prepare for the hosts’ "Twilight" bonus episode, as promised throughout the intro.

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"That was a really fascinating one. I'm desperate to go there and I don't want to go there, all at the same time." – Ash [74:46]

Transcript

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[Ash]

If you're.

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[Melena]

Hey weirdos. I'm Melena.

[Ash]

I'm Ash.

[Melena]

And this is morbid.

[Ash]

And again, it's morbid in the morning. I want to add like a little like clink cheers effect to that.

[Melena]

I know we need to add a cheers sound effect of some sort of sort.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

Like, because it's a, it's a different vibe in the morning. It is. It's a good vibe in the morning.

[Ash]

I love the morning vibe. I, you know, for the past few years I probably would have been pretty feeling rank ass about waking up this early and recording. This morning I woke up early. I said I'm so excited to go record with my sister today.

[Melena]

Yeah, I'm so, I'm, I'm. I love it in here. It's.

[Ash]

The vibes are fucking impeccable.

[Melena]

So, so happy, so happy to talk to you. So happy to talk to these fine folks out there.

[Ash]

Happy that you guys are ready for a twilight.

[Melena]

Oh my God. Killing us with Those comments crying.

[Ash]

I have eye patches on right now. Like little. I feel like when you say eye patch, people picture like that lady under eye patch. Under eye patch.

[Melena]

Thank you.

[Ash]

What's the. The Twin Peaks that.

[Melena]

Oh, there you go.

[Ash]

Yeah, but. But yeah, I'm so excited we will be doing Twilight for the November. November bonus episode.

[Melena]

So excited about it.

[Ash]

Please, if you. If you haven't ever watched it, now's the time.

[Melena]

Give it a watch so we can. We can discuss it together. I'm serious. You guys had us like rolling on the floor laughing with your comments. I love that you appreciated that episode. The Cryptids of the Midwest.

[Ash]

It was so fun.

[Melena]

Fun episode to record.

[Ash]

I saw so many people say, like this felt like 2018.

[Melena]

Yeah. Because it made me so happy, kids.

[Ash]

It was mini morbid.

[Melena]

We were goofy like, because it's just. This is just natural how happy we feel right now. And it feels good that it's coming out and that you guys are feeling it. Because that's all we want this to be, is just, you know, some fun and some serious moments, but some fun along the way.

[Ash]

I see what you did there.

[Melena]

Some serious moments. Some serious XM moments. Many of them.

[Ash]

Some serious XM media moments. Yeah.

[Melena]

You know, but yeah, we've had a lot of fun. So I'm excited to do Twilight.

[Ash]

I'm so excited for Twilight. And who knows, maybe we'll like spread a couple. Like, we'll do some bonus episodes in between them that are different themed and then maybe we'll pop up with a New Moon one. Yeah, we'll go through all of them.

[Melena]

We'll just throw one of the series in there.

[Ash]

It's also weirdly kismet timing because I just heard.

[Melena]

Yeah, we didn't mean this.

[Ash]

No, we didn't mean this at all. I just heard that all five movies are going back into theaters. Like, I didn't know that. In a couple weeks it might even be next week.

[Melena]

Yeah. And it feels. We were just saying it feels like November is Twilight.

[Ash]

Cause it's.

[Melena]

Season.

[Ash]

That was really beautiful.

[Melena]

That really was.

[Ash]

I think we just harmonized. You started a little bit after me, which is harmonizing.

[Melena]

It took a moment.

[Ash]

No, but it was worked out.

[Melena]

Oh yeah. It was on purpose. Totally.

[Ash]

Yeah, we wrote that.

[Melena]

Speaking of that, also, I changed my alarm sound to that. So it starts in the morning with. And then it goes into the.

[Ash]

I gotta try that.

[Melena]

It's a good. So far. I've only been trying it this week. Cause that's right. Yeah. Cause I gave John my Other alarm that I was using.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Melena]

Because it's a great alarm.

[Ash]

The sunlight one. I have that one.

[Melena]

I gave him that one. And then. Cause I just really wanted to hatch because one. I have one for one of the kids for like a sound machine thing. And so you can connect account, like you can connect them all together. And there's so many options. For once. I saw that you could get the Great Gatsby read to you at night on the hatch. I said, well, I need to get that one.

[Ash]

You said, say less fam.

[Melena]

Yeah, they said, you want to have West Egg, like, lull you into sleep? And I said, yep.

[Ash]

And you can wake up to like, the lalas from Gilmore.

[Melena]

Oh, yeah, I did do that. That was nice, I will say.

[Ash]

But I could say, see that getting old.

[Melena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, if you did it every morning.

[Melena]

It was a nice. It was a nice one for like a week. And then I moved away from it. I think it's these alarms. I feel like you need to rotate them.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

Because you'll ruin too many times and you're gonna be like, I hate this sound.

[Ash]

In high school, I used to set. I feel like I forget how I did it, but you could, like, set like certain songs to be your alarm, like legitimate songs. And I learned quickly that you just shouldn't do that.

[Melena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, you ruined that necessarily. You know, like your favorite songs.

[Melena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Something like a ha ha ha ha.

[Melena]

Is because honestly, it's just because it's. The hatch is also like a sunlight alarm. So it does that, like, sunlight too. And you get that. And honestly, that, like, beginning riff of.

[Ash]

Like, that guitar riff is sexy. That's a sexy way to wake up.

[Melena]

It gets you up. I was like, you know, maybe I'll become a vampire today. I don't know.

[Ash]

Maybe I'll be that girl tm.

[Melena]

Yeah, maybe I will. Okay.

[Ash]

I think you already are that girl tm.

[Melena]

Thank you.

[Ash]

Yeah, you bet.

[Melena]

Appreciate.

[Ash]

Totally girl.

[Melena]

Also, someone in the comments. We'll talk about it on the bonus episode. Note, like, way more. Somebody in the comments said that they are no team except for Bella's dad.

[Ash]

And honestly, that's what watching as an adult will do.

[Melena]

I said, that's. That's maturing is becoming a Charlie Swan team. Charlie Swan. Yeah.

[Ash]

Cause I was like, I think I read the Twilight. And again, we'll get way more into it, but I think I read all the Twilight books in, like, middle school. And then the movies came out when I was in, like, seventh or eighth grade. So I was like, Fully. Like in. With Jacob and Edward, I was fully team Edward.

[Melena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But watching now, you're like, charlie Swan is a zaddy.

[Melena]

Yeah. I kind of realized that right off the bat, to be honest.

[Ash]

Well, you were a little bit older.

[Melena]

I was a little older. But I. But I was not Team Charlie. I was. I was still team Edward.

[Ash]

I don't really think there was team Charlie back then. It was simply Jacob or.

[Melena]

I get it. Edward.

[Ash]

But. So much to talk about in the bonus episode.

[Melena]

I am so excited I'm recording that so soon. Elena lives.

[Ash]

Elena goes. We can record that. Like, yeah, like, I'm ready.

[Melena]

Like, let's talk about it. But today we're going to be talking about one. A wild, haunting, one that I have wanted to cover, actually. I think. I think that when we talked to Sam and Colby about a couple of places they'd been, they mentioned this house. Oh, I think you're right. And some crazy shit happened to them in this house. I think you're exactly, exactly right. You know, check out. Yeah. You know, Karen and George.

[Ash]

I know, as I said, that I was like, I am literally shouting out our queens.

[Melena]

Our queens. But, yeah, I think so. I'm fairly certain, unless I am completely insane, which is a very real thing that could happen, that they probably have a video about this house.

[Ash]

So I'll look it up just to make sure you're not a liar. But I think you're right.

[Melena]

If they do, you should go look at the video after this because they're, you know, adorable. So this is the Sally house. Or what Dave has entitled this episode, which made me laugh, was Sally the Man Hater.

[Ash]

Sally the Man Hater.

[Melena]

Sally the Man Hater.

[Ash]

Yeah, they have a video. Sam and Colby, just to go back really quick, our demonic encounter at Haunted Sally House.

[Melena]

See? Yeah. So go watch that after. All right, so let's talk about Sally House. Okay. So by the time Deb met Tony, which, like, Deb and Tony love, could you get a better couple? No. In the early 1990s, she had already lived more of her life in 29 years than most people do in a lifetime. She had one of those lives, which you understand. Yeah, to.

[Ash]

To a degree, maybe. Like, to a Deb degree, you know, we'll see.

[Melena]

Perhaps. I think. I think it's all relative. All right, so she left home at age 16, and she'd spent years moving around the Midwest from one state to another. She'd married and divorced three times before finally landing in Kansas in early 1992, just after leaving her third husband Damn.

[Ash]

She's 29.

[Melena]

Yeah, that's. She's been through that sucks. Yeah. Tony Pickman is. You know, he was in a similar situation when they met. He had just gone through a difficult breakup, a bad marriage, and they hit it off immediately.

[Ash]

Yeah. I mean, that'll bond you.

[Melena]

Yeah. According to Deb, from the moment they met, quote, not a day passed that we did not call or see each other. Cute. They dated for a brief period before Tony asked Deb to move in with him. A few months later, and not long after, he proposed, and they set a date for a February wedding.

[Ash]

Beautiful.

[Melena]

Adorable. Not long after the proposal, the couple learned that Deb was pregnant. Oh, they're in love. Serve. They moved up the date of the wedding to November 1992 and made everything official at the courthouse.

[Ash]

I love a November wedding.

[Melena]

A November wedding. Look at that. November.

[Ash]

I know.

[Melena]

At the time, Tony and Deb were sharing a small one bedroom apartment in Atchison, Kansas, which is a small city in the northeast part of the state. It's along the Missouri River. Missouri, but now Missouri. So with a baby on the way, though, the couple knew they were going to need more space. They needed a bigger place to live. So they started looking for homes to rent. Deb said, we knew that finding our ideal house was not going to be easy in a small town. You all, you all but have to know someone to get a decent place to rent.

[Ash]

Makes sense.

[Melena]

So Deb and Tony looked at a few places that she described as dumps before a tip. Which I feel like everybody thinks that, like, before you get your actual, like, the place you love, you're like, everything else was a fucking dump.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Melena]

Just shit pile.

[Ash]

I think about my first apartment. Honey, that place was a dump.

[Melena]

And it's like a nice place. At the time.

[Ash]

Oh, it was.

[Melena]

At the.

[Ash]

At the time, I was like, this.

[Melena]

Is living, but dump.

[Ash]

And then I look back and I'm like, it was weird to walk past, like, a bunch of natty ice on the fucking lawn every morning. So many college kids lived in that place.

[Melena]

But then they got a tip from Tony's brother George that led them to a small rental home a few blocks from the banks of the river. And it was conveniently located next door to George and his wife. Oh, perfect, brother.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Melena]

The house was so cute. Yeah. Like, he's like, you know, you could just live next to me. Yeah. So the house was built in the late 19th century. It was the oldest on the block, and it was a little rundown, but it seemed to have everything that Tony and Deb were looking for. She later said, when we found this house, it seemed perfect for us. It was spacious, it had several bedrooms. It was just the perfect house.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Melena]

According to the landlord, who just purchased the property a month before that. He planned to work on the outside of the house over time, but he'd done a fairly decent makeover on the inside.

[Ash]

Cool.

[Melena]

After all the formalities were taken care of, they moved into the house in December, with Deb finally feeling like everything was falling into place.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Melena]

That feeling of peace and contentment did not last long. Because this is a story on morbid.

[Ash]

I was gonna say, we're not telling.

[Melena]

You, like, this tale. That just went well.

[Ash]

And then they had their baby.

[Melena]

And life is beautiful.

[Ash]

Keep it weird.

[Melena]

The end. See you for twilight. So, yeah, it didn't last long. On the evening of Valentine's Day, 1993, Deb came home to find that Tony had made a large dinner for them to celebrate the holiday and the fact that they were finally settled in the house. After dinner, they were sitting on the couch, probably just being, like, in love. I love you.

[Mikey]

I love you.

[Melena]

I love you. And that's when the overhead light began to cycle, you know, through dimming and turning on several times. Okay.

[Ash]

That would freak me out. But also at the same time, I'd be like, old house.

[Melena]

Here's the thing. My lights do that a lot. Yeah, it's just one of the, like, they just. They dim, they turn to full brightness, then they kind of, like, settle.

[Ash]

We grew up in a haunted house.

[Melena]

Haunted house space. Par for the course. Yeah. And the way they described it was it seemed like someone was adjusting the dimmer switch, like, putting it down, and then full brightness, then down again. Okay. The problem was, though, the home didn't have dimmer switches.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's a problem.

[Melena]

The fact that it was dimming and getting to full brightness was a little weird, and they just couldn't account for what was happening. So they were like. That was weird. Yeah. The lighting problems continued off and on for a period of a few weeks and was eventually accompanied by the television turning on and off by itself.

[Ash]

Oh, it's giving poltergeist.

[Melena]

Yes. But they looked at it very logically. They said, okay, we have some kind of electrical problem, obviously.

[Ash]

Think I would look at it that way? Well, I wouldn't. Now.

[Melena]

You just said poltergeist right now.

[Ash]

I mean, now, me, I'd be like, oh, fucking poltergeist. Poltergeist. Before I did this show, I'd be Like, oh, I should call Papa. That's an electricity problem.

[Melena]

Let me call my dad.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

So Tony said he would call the landlord, not my dad, to get everything worked out. But he also joked, we must have a ghost.

[Ash]

Oh, no. Now you've acknowledged it.

[Melena]

Strangely, Deb recalls the night Tony made the joke as the last time they had any trouble with the lights.

[Ash]

Huh.

[Melena]

Which is interesting in retrospect. She wonders whether the electrical problems were, quote, a way to get our attention or be noticed. And once they got it, they were like, we gotcha. Oh, yeah. In the weeks that followed, neither Deb nor Tony noticed any unusual activity in the house at all. Okay. But the animals, they had three cats and a dog.

[Mikey]

Same.

[Melena]

Oh, my God. I didn't even think of that.

[Ash]

Parallel lives.

[Melena]

They all seemed very uncomfortable and restless a lot of the times. For instance, before the baby furniture had been delivered and installed in the nursery, their dog Sasha would often sit outside the empty room, snarling or emitting a low growl. Oh, fuck. Though as far as Tony and Deb could tell, the room was completely empty. There was no, like, mice or anything else in there.

[Ash]

That room was full of something.

[Melena]

That room was chock full of. Chock full of bad shit. This behavior continued for several weeks before just inexplicably ending one afternoon. And after that, Sasha seemed to have no problem entering the soon to be nursery.

[Ash]

That's weird.

[Melena]

So it's like there was something in there for a while and then it left.

[Ash]

Well, I wonder if it was because it was empty. Whatever it was felt, like comfortable in there. Or like.

[Melena]

But then when they started moving stuff in.

[Ash]

Yeah, they moved. Yeah, maybe for whatever reason.

[Melena]

Very interesting.

[Ash]

Maybe they were nice and they were like, fuck, a baby's gonna live here.

[Melena]

I gotta get out of here. Well, I've never heard of a haunting quite like this one where it's like, things happened almost to get their attention and then they stop.

[Ash]

That is interesting.

[Melena]

Or they start. They piss off the dog, then they stop.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

You know, like, usually things don't stop and start. They keep going.

[Ash]

Yeah. And ramp up over time. I don't. I've never actually sat down and listened to, like, the full gamut of this story. So I'm excited.

[Melena]

It's gnarly in there. Like the. If you watch the Sam and Colby episode, they get, like, scratched and shit. It's gnarly. Like, it's intense in there.

[Ash]

Yeah. I don't like places where you get scratched.

[Melena]

That's not my thing. Now, the first major event happened in late March 1993. Deb was in her third trimester at the time. And due to the pregnancy, she found the couple's waterbed a little uncomfortable to sleep in, which I cannot fucking imagine sleeping on a waterbed when I was in my third trimester, I would have popped a hole in it 100%. So instead she was sleeping downstairs on the couch in the living room just to get any kind of relief.

[Ash]

It's hard to like even lay properly.

[Melena]

When you're that pregnant, I'm sure, because you really can't. Yeah. Now, one evening, Deb was woken from sleep around 3:30am by what she described as a blood curdling scream. Then several loud quick thumps coming down the stairs.

[Ash]

Oh, just that.

[Melena]

Yeah, like somebody screamed and then like fell down the stairs. The.

[Ash]

And it's only her and her husband.

[Melena]

In her semi conscious state, she immediately feared someone had broken into the house and attacked Tony. But before she could even sit up, because my girl Deb was like, someone's attacking Tony. I may be in my third trimester, but I'm gonna go help that man. Like, that's queen shit.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's wife shit. Yeah, that's why that's a wifey for lifey.

[Melena]

So she, she was terrified. But before she could even sit up, she felt something heavy strike her in the face and chest as though someone had slammed into her with their full weight.

[Ash]

Oh, you better back off my. My pregnant girl Deb.

[Melena]

Yeah. Terrified, she screamed at the top of her lungs, which brought Tony running from the second floor to check on her for several minutes. They just, they just continued screaming. Both of them, like, they were just like, ah, like what's going on?

[Ash]

That's kind of iconic.

[Melena]

And then he said. And then it occurred to Tony that they had no idea what they were screaming.

[Ash]

I love these people. They're so real for that. They're so, they're so real for them.

[Melena]

It's the realest.

[Mikey]

It is because to be quite honest.

[Melena]

Same if I thought someone was attacking John and then an unseen entity slammed into me downstairs. Scream. For a while I would scream and then I know he would come screaming down the stairs and then we would all just scream. We too would be like, what exactly are we screaming?

[Ash]

The screams. We would scrumpt before realizing. What are we scrumping about before realizing.

[Melena]

We'Re doing nothing but screaming. Yeah. Now, once she had calmed down, Deb tried to explain to her husband what had happened. But she found it a little difficult to describe. Cause she's like, I don't know and she's like, someone hit me.

[Ash]

I'm gonna sound cuckoo.

[Melena]

Ultimately, they decided she must have been dreaming. And the scream and thumping sound she heard probably came maybe from, like, the cats, like, running. Really?

[Ash]

Oh, honey.

[Melena]

Cause, you know, cats can go. You know, they can go crazy.

[Ash]

They get the zoom, and they get the zoomies at 3:00am so it's not crazy.

[Melena]

There's three of them. So, like, if three of them are pounding down the stairs, you know, like, it can sound a. In your tired state, it can probably sound very loud. Yeah.

[Ash]

And I mean, a lot of times they'll, like, meow at each other, like, loudly.

[Melena]

Yeah. Like so. So it could sound like screaming.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Melena]

And they said the heavy blow she felt around her chest and body could have also been one of the cats jumping onto her from the top edge of the couch.

[Ash]

100%. And I got that.

[Melena]

The cats did seem particularly agitated at that moment, so the whole thing made sense to them. Okay. They were like, look at these two myth busting.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

Over here, they're just myth, but they're, like, debunked now. It was only later that Deb wonder what had caused the animals to be so agitated in the first place. Yeah, because this wasn't regular zoomies like they were.

[Ash]

You can distinguish.

[Melena]

Right after being woken in terror that night, things in the house went back to normal and remained that way until that summer when Deb gave birth to their son Taylor in mid June. However, in the weeks after he was born, Deb began to notice strange and, like, little subtle things that she couldn't really explain. And it occurred most often while Toni was away at work. Oh, I hate that. Which must have been really annoying because she's like, everybody probably thinks I'm crazy and make me sad now. At first, the inexplicable incidents Deb noticed were pretty small. Like, you know, on multiple occasions, after putting Taylor in his crib for a nap or something, Deb would go to the kitchen to bake or prepare dinner. And she tended to be a little forgetful. So she would often set a timer for herself to know when to check the oven. But on several occasions, she would return to the kitchen a few minutes after setting the timer. Timer to find that it either had been reset to have far more or less time than she'd initially set it for.

[Ash]

That is such a dick move.

[Melena]

That's the thing.

[Ash]

That's such a dick move.

[Melena]

What an asshole move.

[Ash]

I would also be so scared that there was somebody lurking in my walls. Honestly, like, I think my first thought Would not even be ghost in this room. I'd be in here. Oh, there's somebody in here.

[Melena]

And it's like, not only are you trying to, like, burn my house down, essentially, but also, you're ruining my baking. I'm gonna fucking burn whatever I'm making you. Yeah.

[Ash]

Or undercook it and have to, like, set this shit all over again.

[Melena]

Ex. Fuck off. Now, at other times, she would be sitting in the living room reading or watching tv, when the timer on the oven would go off on its own without having been set and without anything.

[Ash]

In the oven, and she's like, don't.

[Melena]

Wake up my fucking baby. Yeah. Now, initially, Deb kept these instances to herself, and she was just like, you know what? Maybe I'm being careless. I'm tired. I just had a baby. Yeah. Maybe I'm just, like, sleep deprived. Yeah. Maybe I'm just, like, setting things by accident. But about a month after the baby was born, something happened in this house that could not be ignored or explained away as easy. So far, they've been able to explain away just myth bus, But I'm so scared right now. In August, a little over a month after Taylor was born, Deb's sister Karen came to stay with them for a few weeks just to visit and help out with the baby. Nice being a good sister. One afternoon, while Tony was hanging photos in the upstairs hallway, he heard a strange shuffling noise coming from the nursery, which was just a few feet away from him. So he stuck his head in the room to check on the baby, and he was surprised to find that several of the stuffed toys that were previously placed around the room had been moved and were now arranged in a circle at the center of the room, all facing outward. I hate that a lot. Ew.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. The chill that is coursing throughout my fucking room.

[Melena]

And this is a baby. He's in a crib. Like, it's not.

[Ash]

I'm wearing a shirt shacket. And I'm freezing.

[Melena]

Yeah. All facing outward.

[Ash]

No, that's the part that I really. It's the circle in the outward.

[Melena]

Please.

[Ash]

Do you see my goosebumps across the room? Let me roll up my shacket.

[Melena]

Yeah, my shacket.

[Ash]

Ew.

[Melena]

Yeah. No, I.

[Ash]

You move out that very day. I don't care where you live. Next door with your sister. I would literally show up at your front door with all of my belongings and say, hi, I live here now.

[Melena]

Yep, here I. Here I am. Ew. Yeah. And Tony had put the. The baby, like, down himself for the nap and didn't he was like, I didn't do it. He said he'd been in the hallway ever since hanging. Hanging things.

[Ash]

Nobody was in there.

[Melena]

He said he would have seen if Deborah, her sister, had gone in and somehow arranged toys on the floor.

[Ash]

Why does that literally make me want to throw?

[Melena]

Right? It's so weird. And it's. It's just like, why e. Why did you do that?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

So he calls out for them, like Deb and Karen, who were sitting in the living room downstairs, and they were horrified and surprised by this whole thing. And Deb later said, we sort of played it off as if someone had gotten into the house and played a little prank. Which I was like, okay, Deb, but here's the thing. Since they were young, Tony and his brother George had been engaged in a very lighthearted and long running prank war with each other. Because remember, they live right next door. Yup. So they couldn't figure out how he had done it.

[Ash]

They're like, damn good.

[Melena]

But they were like, wow, George, that was crazy.

[Ash]

Nailed it.

[Melena]

Not even gonna ask how you did it. Like, they were just like, totally George.

[Ash]

That also was probably, like, subconsciously them.

[Melena]

Being like, George mechanism George.

[Mikey]

It was George.

[Melena]

It's just.

[Mikey]

It was George.

[Melena]

It was so funny. They were like, yeah. I don't know how George did that, but like, fuck George. Not gonna ask him. That's crazy.

[Ash]

George. Not even gonna confirm it was him.

[Melena]

George is like, what?

[Ash]

George is like, that's so weird.

[Melena]

Fucking George is like, I did not crawl in your baby's room and rearrange his toys.

[Ash]

George said, that's simply demonic.

[Melena]

Yeah. He was like, pranks be damned. Like, I. I'm not going that far.

[Ash]

No.

[Melena]

So Deb laughed it off. You know, she's like, oh, George.

[Ash]

You know, funny George Van George.

[Melena]

Yeah. She just gathered up the toys from the floor, put them back where they belonged, and she was like, bye. No.

[Ash]

No.

[Melena]

Just a few minutes later, they all heard the shuffling sound again. And when they returned to the nursery, the toys were all back in the circle.

[Mikey]

No.

[Ash]

Shut the fuck up and stop telling me that.

[Melena]

Yeah. Deb later said, the three of us stood there for the longest time, just shifting our eyes around the room and eyeing each other. They looked around the room and they were like, okay, we need to figure out how I love it. They're like, we need to figure out.

[Ash]

How is George doing this.

[Melena]

George pulled off this elaborate fucking prank again. But they found nothing. Nothing that suggested that anyone else had been in that room, that the windows were closed, and Locked. No one in the closet. There was no other way to get in there. They could not figure it out.

[Ash]

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[Melena]

Clorox Toilet Wand. It's all in one. Clorox Toilet Wand. It's all in one.

[Mikey]

Hey, what does all in one mean?

[Melena]

The Caddy, the wand, the preloaded pad. There's a cleaner in there inside the pad.

[Mikey]

So Clorox Toilet Wand is all I.

[Melena]

Need to clean a toilet. You don't need a bottle of to get into the toilet revolution. Clorox feels good. Use as directed. So although the circle of toys was at its root harmless. I mean, like, no one got hurt.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

You know, and they were convincing themselves that George did somehow. I totally agree. The experience was still unnerving because they all knew that it wasn't George.

[Ash]

They were just convincing themselves, like I was saying earlier. Exactly.

[Melena]

So they all slept in the living room downstairs that night, including the baby.

[Ash]

I'm so glad to hear that. I'm like, stop putting that baby in there.

[Melena]

And Tony said That night really put a chill down our spines. Yeah. To actually have something physically move in a matter of minutes, it scared us.

[Ash]

And like twice.

[Melena]

Yeah. The next day, Deb called her sister in law, Jeannie, who she knew had been at the house the previous afternoon. And not wanting to sound like she was losing her mind, Deb just kind of asked a few gentle questions.

[Ash]

Where was George?

[Melena]

Asking whether she had noticed anything strange when she was at the house the previous day. Until she eventually just outright asked whether she'd moved anything around the nursery. And sensing that Deb was very anxious, Jeannie was like, no, I have not touched anything in your house. Like, no way. And she was fairly certain that George had not either. She was like, I don't think he's gone over your house every year.

[Ash]

I didn't see him crawling in the.

[Melena]

Windows at any point yesterday, like very quickly. I don't see him like, using fishing line to like, move all of them back.

[Ash]

That's exactly what I was picturing.

[Melena]

But Deb explained why she was asking. And Jeannie paused before telling her. The day before that when she was at the house, she didn't see anything strange. But she said, I did get a very weird feeling while I was there. She couldn't quite put her finger on it, but Jeannie said she felt this, like, strange cold sensation. And when she went into the nursery, she got this distinct feeling of unease, she said, as though she wasn't wanted in there. And she said, I. It was, it was really strange. I can't explain it. Oh, that's really so. Like just her being like, you know what? I didn't see anything, but like, I felt some shit in there. Yeah. Now, the days after this, Deb, Tony and Karen began noticing other weird things around the house. They turned the lights off before leaving a room, only to reach the bottom of the stairs and look up to see the lights were back on.

[Ash]

And that would be fucking annoying because electricity is on.

[Melena]

Electricity. Yeah. And in the nursery, they could hear unusual sounds coming through the baby monitor. But when they checked the room, nothing was there.

[Ash]

I gotta tell you, when I have kids, that's my biggest fear.

[Melena]

Oh, it's horrible.

[Ash]

Baby monitor, like, even babysitting back in the day, I babysat at like the height of paranormal activity. And I used get so nervous checking.

[Melena]

Baby monitors, see or hear something horrifying. I was always terrified I was going to see something horrifying on it and.

[Ash]

Have to go in there and rescue the baby too. When you're like 17 and you're solely Responsible for a baby and you're afraid it might get demonically possessed. That's a lot. Yeah, that still lives in my nervous system, I think.

[Melena]

I think we, we can all. We can all, you know, relate to that feeling. I think so. Because I don't want to be in charge. I don't want to be in charge of someone I love who is being demonically possessed.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

Never mind a random person that I'm just in charge of for a job.

[Ash]

I. Yeah. Most of the babies that I babysat weren't super random. Like, I cared about them.

[Melena]

That's true.

[Ash]

It was.

[Melena]

So you were really a lot.

[Ash]

That's maybe why I have ibs.

[Melena]

Maybe.

[Ash]

You never know.

[Melena]

You know what? That is why you have ibs. It could be. I'm declaring it right now.

[Ash]

The fear of paranormal activity whilst babysitting.

[Melena]

Fear of a child becoming demonically possessed while in your care is the reason you have IBS today.

[Ash]

Can you write me a script for that?

[Melena]

Clock it in. Let's go. So since they moved in, Deb had managed to write off a lot of these strange incidents as, you know, a product of her imagination. Just misperceptions. Tired, tired, sleep deprived mom, postpartum, all that stuff. No. When she considered everything together, though, it occurred to her that they might be dealing some with something paranormal.

[Ash]

100%.

[Melena]

Because again, everything by itself, independently, she could write off a little bit. But put it all together and it's like. Even more terrifying was the idea that while it was entirely unlikely, it was possible that someone had been breaking into the house or worse, had been hiding in the house, like I said, and coming out at night while everyone was asleep.

[Ash]

Yeah, fuck that.

[Melena]

Not wanting to linger too long on those thoughts of an intruder, she went back to her thoughts of. I bet it's ghost. So. And she said later, she said, since it's playing with the toys, maybe it's a child ghost. Okay. And I think Jeannie had said that to, to Deb because she knew that she was like, you know what? It's playing with this toy. Maybe this is a kid. Oh, it's got a little kid, like running around your house and it's, it's.

[Ash]

Got like prank energy. So I get, I get that.

[Melena]

And then she said also, maybe it's a nurturing woman who's trying to entertain the baby.

[Ash]

Baby.

[Melena]

Which is also a very nice thing to like, that's some like sister in law energy right there. Like, she could tell Deb was very nervous and anxious and like very upset by it. And she's like, I bet it's just a little kid having some fun. Or even better, I bet it's a mom who's just trying to make your kid. Baby happy.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like, you know, jumping on your chest in the middle of the night, you know?

[Melena]

Unfortunately, neither of these options seemed pretty calming to Deb. She was like, that's also terrifying.

[Ash]

So, like, as a new mom, or really any kind of mom, I don't think you want another mom in your.

[Melena]

House coming to you. I don't want another mom. No. Now, a few days later, Tony's other brother, Larry. Tony. Larry and George, obsessed. He visited, and the couple told him about having found those toys in a circle in the nursery. And Larry had always been more skeptical and analytical, you know, especially of among the brothers. And Tony had, you know, he kind of hoped his brother's, like, sensible perspective might help make them feel better. Yeah. At first, when they explained everything that had happened in the house, Larry assumed they were joking. He was like, no, that didn't happen. He later told Deb and Tony, the only thing that stopped me from thinking that you were all crazy was the fact that I know all of you too well.

[Ash]

Oh. He's like, listen, I really thought you were tapped.

[Melena]

He was like, anyone else will think you're crazy, but I just know you guys. Yeah, I know you're not.

[Ash]

And, like, you wouldn't make that up.

[Melena]

Larry suggested that they conduct a test, and they. And he said, why don't you place one of the stuffed bears on the rocking chair in the nursery and periodically check to see if any point it gets moved to a different location.

[Ash]

Yeah, I like that. He says, scientific method.

[Melena]

Exactly. He said, hypothesis. Let's go. So since they knew they were the only ones in the house, the only other explanation would be of a paranormal nature. So let's try it out.

[Ash]

Let's go.

[Melena]

For the rest of the evening, Tony, Deb, Karen, and Larry sat together talking in the living room, periodically getting up to check the bear status. But after several hours passed and nothing changed, Larry suggested they maybe alter their plan. And he said, why don't we put the toys in a circle on the floor as they had been a few days earlier, to see if it could prompt a reaction.

[Ash]

Okay, so he's.

[Melena]

Look at him. Look at him switching it up and being like, okay, that didn't work. Let's try another thing.

[Ash]

Yeah, different hypothesis.

[Melena]

Larry, Larry. 20 minutes later, they returned to the room and found the toys arranged in the circle just as they had left him. Like, you know, nothing Changed. Nothing had moved. So they're feeling defeated at this point. They're like, okay, we really tried to get a reaction out of this thing, and nothing's happening. And. And at this point, they were like, Larry thinks we're lying, right?

[Ash]

Like, thinks a lot.

[Melena]

Goes like, damn it. So Deb started to escort everyone out of the nursery when Tony stopped them and pointed out one of the toys that was still sitting on the shelf. The stuffed beanbag teddy bear, which weighed about a pound and a half, was sitting on the shelf where Tony had placed it several days earlier. But now it was turned to face the wall.

[Ash]

No, not Blair Witch style.

[Melena]

No. Yeah.

[Ash]

Oh, you're gonna find some eyeballs and a cloth.

[Melena]

It seems super innocuous.

[Ash]

No, it doesn't.

[Melena]

Because it's so small.

[Ash]

No, it doesn't seem innocuous at all.

[Melena]

Well, and it seems like a thing like that he could have mistakenly put it that way when he put it on the shelf. No, except Karen remembers. So, like, the sister remembered seeing it a few hours earlier, and she said, no, it was facing out towards the room a few hours earlier when we came in here. So she's like, no, I remember that.

[Ash]

No, that upsets me, like, actually really deep into my soul.

[Melena]

Cause, like, why are you turning the bear? Why can't he see what' happening?

[Mikey]

Ew.

[Melena]

Why can't he see what's happening?

[Ash]

No, that's the thing.

[Melena]

Why isn't he part of this? No.

[Ash]

The end of the blur, which me up to this day, I think that's. It's a perfect ending.

[Melena]

I think it's a perfect ending.

[Ash]

And I have chills all over my body right now. And I'm scared. Yeah, 911, I'd like to report a scare.

[Melena]

Yeah, like, what are you doing? That. That bear can't see it? No, is what I want to know.

[Mikey]

I hate it.

[Melena]

And what did he do to be on the outs?

[Ash]

Why is he in the corner?

[Melena]

I want to know what his. Why is he on the out?

[Ash]

I'm going to cry.

[Melena]

Yeah, I might cry right now. I'm going to cry. After getting everyone's assurance that they had not moved the stuff bare, Larry told his brother he knew someone who might be able to help.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Melena]

His boss's wife Barbara was a fairly well known psychic in spiritual circles, but she and her husband had just moved to California. So he was like, I'll reach out to her, find when they're gonna be back in the area.

[Ash]

He's like, I'll set a zoom.

[Melena]

Yeah. Like, we're gonna get this going in 1990 something. In the meantime, Tony called his mother and told her the short version of what had been happening and how the incidents had, like, unnerved them a lot. And she suggested, why don't you pack a small bag and stay with me for a few nights?

[Ash]

That's a mama.

[Melena]

This is a good family.

[Ash]

It is.

[Melena]

This is a great family. I said, this is a good family.

[Ash]

Well, I knew what you meant. It's a good families on both sides.

[Melena]

This is a good family, you know. Since Karen was still staying with them for one more day, they assured Tony's mother that they would be fine. They were like, we don't want to, like, all come to your house. But that night they all stayed in the master bedroom together behind the locked door. So they all backed in there.

[Ash]

Oh, man.

[Melena]

The next morning, Tony drove Karen to the airport and stopped by his parents house on the other side of town before going home that afternoon. So she contacted a friend of hers whose daughter had lived in the Pickman's house a little over a decade earlier. So she had lived in.

[Ash]

Oh, she lived in the haunted house.

[Melena]

Okay, The Sally house.

[Ash]

So she's got it.

[Melena]

According to the previous tenant, there were several occasions when she would smell a bad odor in the house. She could never find a source for it. And she frequently heard strange sounds and experienced other small disturbances over the years. But more importantly, the woman recalled many instances where she would have to reprimand her son for leaving his toys all over the floor of the bedroom. And each time, the boy would reply, but, Mama, I didn't play with those toys. Oh, which like that.

[Ash]

That's really sad. Poor kid. And she was probably like, you did. Cause they're everywhere.

[Melena]

Cause they're everywhere. Right. Like, you got it, you know. Throughout their time in the house, those previous tenants didn't recall anything particularly frightening or anything that made them, like, exceedingly uncomfortable.

[Ash]

She never acknowledged it. Yeah.

[Melena]

She did, however, remember that her daughter, whose bedroom was in the room the Pickmans used as a nursery quote, had not only grown attached to an imaginary playmate named Sally, but would entertain herself for hours, playing with her in the closet.

[Ash]

The warm that I just warmed.

[Melena]

Playing along with her imaginary friend named Sally in the closet.

[Ash]

Sometimes scary things actually give me the sensation of I'm about to cry. And I might cry.

[Melena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

No, not actually, but like, fuck, that's. I hate that.

[Melena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I'm whopping so hard right now.

[Melena]

Get out of the car. I'm whopping so hard.

[Ash]

Ew.

[Melena]

To Deb, whose mind had been conjuring up all manner of terrifying explanations. The stories from Tony's mom were actually kind of a comfort because it's like, okay, I'm not crazy. One, two, there's no intruder in my house. I think that was honestly scarier to them than anything. They were genuinely worried someone was hiding in their walls or attic and coming out at night. I get that. So I think that was like, at least because they were proof. They were proof also that someone had lived peacefully with these occurrences still happening.

[Ash]

Yeah. Just with their child playing in the fucking closet.

[Melena]

Yeah. But they brought to mind her previous thought that they might be sharing their home with the ghost of a child now named Sally. Uh huh. While the ghosts of adults seem like they could be wildly unpredictable, it didn't seem possible that a child could have lived long enough to develop the kind of anger that would result in a lot of harm.

[Ash]

I've heard about some fucked up kids.

[Melena]

Is a pretty, like, solid way to comfort yourself. I think that's a pretty solid defense mechanism. Is to be like, well, adults can be real angry and they have a lot of years under their belt to be pissed off and bitter.

[Mikey]

Yeah.

[Melena]

Kids, not so much. So like, let's, you know, Sally's probably fine.

[Ash]

I get it.

[Melena]

So a few days later, I'm like.

[Ash]

You haven't heard the stories I've heard.

[Melena]

No, they were just. They were. This was total defense mechanism. Now, a few days later, Larry called with news about his boss's wife, Barbara, the psychic medium.

[Ash]

Honey, the land.

[Melena]

Honey, the land. So we got Sylvia coming.

[Ash]

Oh God.

[Melena]

To ruin it. So Larry had explained the situation and Barbara attempted to get a read on the house from where she was in California, which is wild. According to Barbara, there was the spirit of a girl in the house between 5 and 13 years old. Barbara claimed that the spirit not only likes the house and feels comfortable there, but was protecting a baby. Okay. Meaning Taylor.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

Barbara also believed the movement of the toys was caused by the spirit who was playing with them as though they were her own. All right. The psychic's recommendation was to make it clear to the ghosts that she was welcome to remain in the house, but she would have to behave and follow.

[Ash]

Their rules and not turn bears to face the wall.

[Melena]

Don't do like a cre. Before ending the call, Larry had one more bit of information that Barbara had shared with him. Throughout her read of the house, she continuously got a name that flashed in her head. Sally. Now remember, this is Tony's side of the family that Got this information. Her side of the family also gave the name Sally.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

Completely independent from each other.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

And it wasn't even her side of the family. It was her side of the family's friend's daughter.

[Ash]

Like, friend.

[Melena]

Us who lived in the house was like, oh, yeah, My kid played with a girl ghost name Sally.

[Ash]

Well, and also Barbara's in California picking.

[Melena]

Up on this completely across the country.

[Ash]

And it's like, there's, like. Obviously the Internet was, like, just starting to be a thing around this time, but, like, it wasn't like, she could just, like, look up.

[Melena]

No.

[Ash]

Like, look this up on the Internet.

[Melena]

No.

[Ash]

Like, that's crazy.

[Melena]

Like, that's nuts. Wow.

[Ash]

So that would be a wild moment to experience. Yeah. I would probably cry.

[Melena]

I. I wouldn't even know how to handle this. And honestly, Deb was kind of relieved by this information because she was right.

[Ash]

Like you said, at least it's not an intruder. It's a kid.

[Melena]

Seems like they just want to play.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

So I'll just lay down the law and that's it. All right. Tony was less convinced. He said, I wasn't a big believer in psychics, which, like, fair. Oh, yeah. So I. He said. So I kind of blew her off a little bit.

[Ash]

I mean, it would be crazy, though, to get the same information from two different sides of the family.

[Melena]

It would.

[Ash]

Or two different families.

[Melena]

Now, Tony had been raised, though, in a fairly religious family, so he'd never also. He also never believed in ghosts. Okay. He did, though, believe in evil and in demons. So if there was, which, like, I have trouble reconciling that way of thinking, but, like, that's not for me to decide. Cause, like, I'm not a religious person.

[Ash]

How is there not the other?

[Melena]

Yeah. I'm not really sure. But he said so. If there was anything to what Barbara had said, it did little to convince him the entity in their house was harmless. Because he was like, if something's in here, it's probably bad.

[Ash]

I kind of get that.

[Melena]

I get that. So in the days after this, Deb and Tony's brother George tried their best to get Sally to reveal herself to them. They took photographs of them.

[Ash]

Show yourselves.

[Melena]

They said, come on, Sally. They just blared Mustang Sally.

[Ash]

As soon as he said, come on, Sally.

[Melena]

Come on, Sally. They took pictures of empty rooms. They spoke loudly, as though Sally could hear them. And one afternoon while they were in the nursery, George saw one of the stuffed bears move and started snapping photos of every corner of the room. Oh, finally, when Tony called out to them. They left the room. But when they reached the top of the stairs, George stopped in his tracks and he called out to his brother and said, man, I can't move. Tony watched as George appeared to be frozen in place, his face turning pale.

[Ash]

What?

[Melena]

Later he explained that when he reached the top of the stairs, he felt a rush of cold surround him and it felt as though someone was holding him in place.

[Ash]

What?

[Melena]

He was literally like, I can't move. What the.

[Ash]

I've never heard that before.

[Melena]

The incident completely caught George entirely off guard and terrified all of them. Yeah. So Deb thought it would be a good idea for the three of them to get out of the house for a bit and visit their parents. They were like, we need to get out of here.

[Ash]

Because they've been kind of like, yeah, not intentionally, but like irritating.

[Melena]

Yeah. Like they've been doing stuff to get a reaction, like agitating. So as they were packing up what they would need for the baby, Tony suddenly jumped up from his seat on the couch and yelled out in pain. And when Deb asked what was wrong, Tony said it felt like something had bit or stung him. Oh, he said, I kind of blew it off because we were just in a hurry to get out of there. Yeah. But when they reached Tony's parents house, the bite he'd gotten on his back was still bothering him. So Deb lifted his shirt to see what it was, and she was shocked because on Tony's back were, quote, three bleeding scratch marks, each about five or six inches long. Damn. Running down the center of his back.

[Ash]

It's a long scratch.

[Melena]

Remember Sam and Colby got scratched. Like who they went with got scratched because they men. They men Deb took photos of the scratches for, just to document the whole incident. But otherwise they didn't know what to think. What the happened here. Now, after a year in the house, they had experienced just a strange variety of phenomenon.

[Ash]

Nothing violent.

[Melena]

Yeah. And they were convinced at up till this point that the house was haunted by the ghost of a little girl. But until that point, again, everything seemed pretty harmless. A little unnerving, but harmless. But the attack on Tony, completely not harmless. Flipped everything on his ear. Debs later said, so many things were going through my mind. Is this a mean spirit that we've got in our house? Do we go back in the house? Do we never go back again? We were totally clueless about what to do next.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

Now, later that afternoon, Tony and Deb considered their options and even talked about moving out. They were going to leave. Unfortunately, though, being A young family on a single, modest income. The cost of moving to a new house was pretty much out of the question. It's not that easy.

[Ash]

No, it's not.

[Melena]

So instead, they decided to call Barbara and ask for her advice.

[Ash]

Smart.

[Melena]

The psychic. Smart. Barbara reiterated what she told Tony's brother and said the latest, more aggressive activity was probably Sally's way of letting the couple know she's there. He she said if she just floated through the door, you wouldn't know she was there. But if she opens the door, you know she's in the room and she wants your attention. She wants to be noticed.

[Ash]

She straight up left a mark on you. Yeah, she's there.

[Melena]

She reminded Deb of what she'd told Larry before. It's their house, and they need to be firm with Sally. She said you have to let her know there are rules and she has to obey them. And if she doesn't, she will be punished. I hate that. Even to Deb, a firm believer in the supernatural, the idea of punishing a ghost seemed a little far fetched. But she was like, you know what?

[Ash]

Like, what are you gonna do?

[Melena]

Like, maybe banish her from the house.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Melena]

But she figured Barbara knew better than she did, so she was like, I'll just keep listening to her. Finally, when Deb got around to telling Barbara about the scratches on Tony's back, the psychic's tone did seem to change a little. She said she probably thought Tony was going to hurt the baby and she was just trying to protect him now. Before hanging up, Barbara repeated the advice she'd been previously given. Be stern and firm with Sally. Let her know she can stay, but only if she follows the rules. Okay, but why? Very interesting that she said that she thought Toni was going to hurt the baby. Oh, she does not like men.

[Ash]

Is this gonna be like, the saddest backstory of all time?

[Melena]

Now, that night you said, I won't.

[Ash]

Be telling you right now, Deb.

[Melena]

Tony and Tony's parents went over everything Barbara had told them. Considering what their options were. Tony insisted when it came to talking to Sally, that responsibility would have to fall on Deb. He was like, I don't.

[Ash]

He was like, she will scratch the out of me.

[Melena]

And he told her, a ghost is something that is supposed to be dead. And the idea of having a conversation with a dead thing was just something he couldn't bring himself to do. He was like, I just don't get it. Believe in this.

[Ash]

Well, and also, he's religious, so he's really not.

[Melena]

Yeah. That night after they got home, Deb did as Barbara suggested. Standing in the nursery, she reprimanded Sally for what she had done to Tony and reminded the Spirit that she was welcome, but only if she followed the rules. Just as Deb was finishing her lecture, the phone rang. And it was Barbara.

[Ash]

I thought you were gonna say. And no one was there.

[Melena]

And it was Sally being like, okay, you imagine you're ruining my life.

[Ash]

You're ruining my life.

[Melena]

No, it was Barbara. And she said she would be coming to Kansas City the following day for an interview and wondered if she could come by the house. She assured Deb there wasn't anything to be concerned about, but she wanted to make sure she was right in what she had told them.

[Ash]

All right, cool. I'd be like, thanks, girl.

[Melena]

Thanks for that. So Deb told her it would be fine for her to come to the house. And then before ending the call, Barbara told her it might be a good idea to tell Sally about Barbara's upcoming visit to the house so she wasn't caught off guard. Okay, so I was like, I would hate this. I'd be like, I don't want to live this life. No. Now, the next morning, with Barbara set to arrive later that evening, Deb thought it might be their best. In their best interest to learn a little bit about the house.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

Just be prepared. Oh, go.

[Ash]

Go get the microfiche.

[Melena]

Yeah, Maybe it'll clarify some things. So at the library, she sat down. Deb sat down with that microfiche and some records to learn who'd owned the place in the past. You know, go through the whole thing. She learned that the land was initially purchased by a woman named Kate Finney, whose family owned a large amount of land around town.

[Ash]

Honey, the land.

[Melena]

Honey, the land. How old do you think the land is? That's what she was saying.

[Ash]

It's quite old, Kate.

[Melena]

It's quite old. Kate had. Maybe it's. And this is the Pickmans, too. And she. Remember, she was like, pinkering.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah.

[Melena]

P, I, C, K. Oh, no. She doesn't even spell it right. She literally CK Sylvia Brown pronounces pinkering.

[Ash]

Like the color pink.

[Melena]

P, I, C, K, E, R, I, N, G. I was like, that is two different words. But here we are. So Kate had the house built on the property and lived there until the early 1900s, when it was passed down to a relative, Dr. Charles Finney. The house remained in the Finney family until the 1940s when it was sold. And from there, it went to a few different owners before it was purchased by the current owner, the pickman's landlord. Armed with a list of names and owners and occupants, Deb moved over to the cemetery records and started looking up each name she'd come across. She was like, I gotta find our ghost among these people.

[Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Melena]

Poor Sally. But when she continued tracing the lineage to the owners, she found a surprising number of male children, but very few girls and no Sally. Okay, so Deb was about to pack up and head home when she finally came across what she was looking for. According to the census records, at the same time that Charles Finney took ownership of the house, a family named with by the name hall moved in a few houses down. The records indicated that the head of the household was a single woman and she lived there with her daughter, Sally Isabel hall, who died in 1905. The information was hardly proof that they had, you know, like, exactly what was.

[Ash]

Going on, but it's something.

[Melena]

But Deb is like, this is related because they live down the street and.

[Ash]

We got a Sally that's big.

[Melena]

It's on the street, so we'll take it. So she noted it. And Barbara arrived that evening a little after 8pm and from the moment she arrived, she seemed to be, like, preoccupied. Deb said it was as if she wasn't actually looking at anything in the room. In fact, as her eyes roved, they never seemed to stop or focus on anything in particular or anything we could see. Okay. Eventually, Barbara did settle down and started communicating with Sally. She said, settle down, Barb. Settle the down. Bob. She said, you do a lot of things that bug her. You're too bossy. She says, you're too bossy. And it's like, you told me to be bossy.

[Ash]

Not only did you tell me to be bossy, this is my mother house.

[Melena]

My house. You're a kid.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

You gotta listen to me, right? Deb was slightly taken aback by this, because she was like, barb, you told me to be boss. You instructed me to be bossy.

[Ash]

No nerve.

[Melena]

And she said that. She said, barbara, you told me, Barbara, you said, babs, I only did what you suggested. I laid out the rules. I told her she couldn't stay if she didn't comply with the rules, but otherwise she was welcome.

[Ash]

Fair is fair.

[Melena]

And Barbara said she doesn't like it. But then again, what child likes to be disciplined?

[Ash]

Okay?

[Melena]

And it's like, barbara, you're not helping me. Well, I can't.

[Ash]

And what am I supposed to do, let her run amok?

[Melena]

Honey, the land.

[Ash]

Honey, the land.

[Melena]

Now, in Order to help soothe Sally's hurt feelings, Barbara suggested they get her some of her own toys. Which at this point, I'd be like, I'm not buying the ghost choice.

[Ash]

No, this is going too far.

[Melena]

She was like, maybe that way she won't be so preoccupied with the baby and his things. And the suggestions seemed unusual to Tony and Deb, but Deb was like, you know what? If it gets me peace, I'll do it. Yeah. So she was like, cool. Maybe this will help smooth things over. Keep peace in the house. Which appeared to be the only option, since Barbara didn't get the feeling that Sally would ever leave. Leave.

[Ash]

I feel like the more you feed into this, though, the worse off you are.

[Melena]

When she told them she feels safe and secure here.

[Ash]

Also, she's not leaving, but, like, why are we rewarding bad behavior?

[Melena]

That's the thing.

[Ash]

You scratched my man's and drew blood. You don't get a tickle, Mo.

[Melena]

You do not.

[Ash]

I know it's the hot joy of the 90s, but.

[Melena]

But you're not gonna.

[Ash]

You cannot have it.

[Melena]

Absolutely not. You gotta start acting right. Yeah. Foreign.

[Ash]

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[Melena]

Now. Before leaving, Barbara mentioned one more thing.

[Ash]

Oh no, not one more thing.

[Melena]

Although she managed to get through to Sally without much trouble, she did get the feeling that there was another, far stronger spirit in the house. The second spirit refused to communicate or reveal themselves to Barbara, but she got the impression that the ghost was older and much stronger than Sally. It was that ghost, Barbara theorized, that was responsible for attacking Tony. It was not Sally.

[Ash]

Oh, okay, so she can have a tickle.

[Melena]

That's how she felt now. In the days after Barbara's visit to the house, the activity did seem to calm down, especially once Deb bought some new stuffed bears and dolls specifically for Sally.

[Ash]

That's really sweet, Deb.

[Melena]

Deb's a good mom.

[Ash]

She is too. Relative to her physical children and her spiritual children.

[Melena]

Yeah, she really is. While the relative peace was welcome, Toni couldn't help but feel a little concerned about how enthusiastic Deb seemed about having a ghost in the house.

[Ash]

And you know, this would if I was this enthusiastic about having a ghost in the house, Drew would not be pleased.

[Melena]

Yeah, and he was like the more she got into it, the more resentful he was getting of their ghost pals. I get that now. One morning a couple weeks after Barbara's visit, Tony returned home from working the late shift. Before going to the bedroom to get some sleep, he went to the kitchen to get just like a glass to drink or something. As he was closing the Refrigerator door. Tony caught a glimpse of the apparition of a young girl out of the corner of his eye shut. The.

[Ash]

She said, you don't want to see me here.

[Melena]

The.

[Ash]

I am.

[Melena]

He literally dropped his glass on the floor.

[Ash]

Of course he did.

[Melena]

Shattered the glass on the floor. And he said when he. When it fell, it, like, shocked. Like, he didn't even realize he had dropped the glass. So it shattered on the floor and it, like, shocked him for a second. And he said, as. As I looked at it, when I looked back, she was gone.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

And he said. He later said, I was so panicky, I couldn't get words out.

[Ash]

I mean. Yeah.

[Melena]

Now, while the appearance of Sally in the kitchen did nothing but frighten Toni, Deb was ecstatic that she had finally made an appearance. I kind of get that. But she was kind of jealous that.

[Ash]

Oh, babe, I'd be so jealous that.

[Melena]

It was Tony that she'd appeared to and not her.

[Ash]

Yeah. She just went out and purchased all these.

[Melena]

Nice. Now, in the weeks after that, Deb continued to speak loudly and regularly with Sally.

[Ash]

She's like, show yourself, girl.

[Melena]

Hoping that she would get a look at her. But the theatrics of speaking to a ghost did nothing other than kind of piss off Tony. Oh, no.

[Ash]

Tony was like, I don't want to see her again. Yeah.

[Melena]

After the sighting in the kitchen, a few months passed without any activity. Then one night while the couple was sleeping, Tony was awoken by the feeling that someone was pulling on his arm.

[Ash]

Ew.

[Melena]

He had just come out of unconsciousness when the tugging sensation gave way to a hard pull and he was physically yanked up and forward. He said, I was literally pulled out of bed.

[Ash]

Ew.

[Melena]

He said, it just grabbed my arm and yanked me. It scared me. I remember how tight it had my wrist.

[Ash]

This is my biggest fear.

[Melena]

Yeah. And he said, like the scratches, it left deep red finger marks on his wrist. Stop. Yeah. As the days passed, Deb continued to try to communicate with Sally, convinced that the assault on Tony was Sally's way of trying to communicate something to them. I don't think it's. Tony, on the other hand, was growing more resentful not only of Sally now, but also of Deb, who seemed more interested in ghost hunting than she. Than he felt for anybody's safety or well being. That's how he saw it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

Just a few days after he was pulled out of bed, Tony returned home from another overnight shift and laid down to get some rest. He had just started to drift off when he began hearing Whispering? No, he said to me, it didn't sound like a child. It sounded almost like three grown up people talking at once. Like they were right in your ear talking to you.

[Ash]

Oh, that's fucking horrifying.

[Melena]

The whispering was accompanied by a distinct sensation that there was someone in the room with him. And. And the entire experience effectively ruled out the possibility of going to sleep for the night. He was like, nope, not doing that.

[Ash]

Also, this poor guy, he's angry, he's sleep deprived, and he's working overnight.

[Melena]

And he's like.

[Ash]

And he's a new father. Yeah. Wait, I just need to interrupt. We had to pause for a second to go get children off to school. I said to Elena, was it getting progressively colder in here while you were telling this story? It was all of a sudden my legs started getting so cold. And that feels paranormal. It is cold out, but it. It was getting increasingly cold.

[Melena]

Yeah, it did. Because the rest of the house was nice and warm.

[Ash]

Yeah. So that was weird.

[Melena]

So that was cool.

[Ash]

And even now I feel like a cold chill.

[Melena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And we just turned the heat on in here, so.

[Melena]

So hopefully it will get warm.

[Ash]

Alena goes. Sally. I go. I hope she didn't travel.

[Melena]

I hope not. All right. Stay invested.

[Ash]

What's going on?

[Melena]

All right. So as the days passed, that feeling of. Of resentment in Tony started, you know, growing a little bit.

[Ash]

I wonder if that's paranormal.

[Melena]

Well, because it was soon accompanied by dark thoughts.

[Ash]

That's probably paranormal, he said.

[Melena]

I was getting a strong feeling of hate, like I wanted to reach out and hurt her. Oh. Like Sally and Deb and Tony had, you know, had a very normal relationship where every once in a while they argued like normal couples do. But these feelings were new, he said, and they were entirely forced to Tony, he'd always been super easy going, very kind. He was not a violent guy, not an aggressive guy. And in time, it became harder for him to hide his feelings. And eventually I forgot about that. I thought we turned.

[Mikey]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Melena]

Oh, my God.

[Mikey]

Are you okay?

[Melena]

Yes. Am I? You're both assholes.

[Mikey]

As soon as I waited for you to start up. I wish.

[Melena]

If Sally isn't queer, I am a man. Sally's here. No, girl, you're just a clutch.

[Mikey]

Your foot got looped in your back. I waited until you were okay to fully laugh. I waited for you to sit up. And then it just. It was with the table, it was like you went down, and then you went like double down, kind of. And then the table just really sealed.

[Ash]

Your pain did you see how I.

[Melena]

Chose to fall, though? Very, very gimpy heart. You chose to fall. Very demure, Very mindful.

[Ash]

Or roller derby.

[Melena]

Very cutesy. Cutesy. I thought he turned that off. Oh, my God. It's.

[Ash]

It's not our fault. Genetically, that's instilled in us. My nanny used to love when people would fall.

[Mikey]

I would love to hear how that sounds.

[Ash]

You might need to leave that in, guys. Mikey's okay, but he just ate shit.

[Mikey]

And we.

[Ash]

I need you to know that we waited. We waited to see if he was.

[Mikey]

Okay, but he fell. And then my costume fell onto him, which is a table, and then his chair fell too, and everything just fell. It felt like. That's even not another teen movie. When she falls through the stairs and everything goes with it and then she like falls into the basement, it keeps.

[Melena]

Keeps going. I'm literally sobbing, oh, my God. So I waited. Oh, my God. I said. I just.

[Ash]

I literally was holding it until you stood up. And, like, I wanted to make sure.

[Melena]

You didn't, like, hurt your knees.

[Mikey]

And you just go, oh. You just kept saying, oh my God.

[Melena]

I did.

[Mikey]

Every, every part that happened, you would go, oh, my God. As you fell, she went, oh, my God. And then the table went, oh, my God. Who needs to hear oh, my.

[Melena]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Brought to you by God.

[Melena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Oh, okay. Oh, sweet Mikey. Oh, my God. Well, anyway.

[Melena]

All right. Okay. Get it together, me. So, like I said, Tony was super chill. He was a chill guy, but it honestly became hard for him to hide his feelings. Eventually, Deb noticed that something was going on here. She said there was a noticeable change in Tony's demeanor. We fought a lot more. He was almost argumentative in starting issues.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Melena]

In retrospect, Tony believes that the spirit, whether Sally or something else, was affecting his emotions. And it was all exacerbated by the fact that he was typically operating like we were talking about before on pretty little sleep.

[Ash]

One, he's working overnights, and again, he's a new father.

[Melena]

So they started fearing what was gonna happen if they didn't take action. So Deb called Barbara and explained what was happening. And Barbara believed Toni was being influenced by the second spirit. But at that point, she had to admit that she was a little out of her depth here. Rather than have her try to communicate Kate with Sally for a third time, Barbara recommended that they get in contact with Peter James, who's a well known psych and paranormal investigator in Kansas, who she thought could help them. Now, despite everything that had happened. Tony was still reluctant to contact James. He was feeling that other people in the community were going to find out, like, it's gonna get weird. But he knew they couldn't continue on this way, so he agreed. And Deb reached out to James, who agreed to come to the house. A few days later, Peter James and his team of paranormal investigators came to the house. And before they even entered the house, James sensed the spirit of a little girl who he said he spotted in the upstairs window. Yeah. As he moved through the house from room to room, he sensed the presence of a second spirit. He said it was a woman who he recognized as far more powerful than the little girl. It was in the nursery that the psychic sense the presence of the woman the strongest. He said he felt as though she was trying to push the group from the room as James was fighting to stay.

[Ash]

Which is interesting because Deb's sister had said that, or her sister in law.

[Melena]

She felt like a weird.

[Ash]

Like she. Like she was unwanted. She said.

[Melena]

Exactly. So as James continued to try to make contact, Tony suddenly felt the burning pain on his back. And when he lifted his shirt, Deb saw the same bloody claw marks that she'd seen on him several months before. Stop clawing my man's James, said the psychic. He said he paranormal investigator. He said he was really petrified. He just couldn't move. I tried to put him at ease, but he was very shaken by this.

[Ash]

Are you gonna put me at ease when a ghost is scratching my back?

[Melena]

You're not putting me.

[Ash]

Not in, like, a soothing way.

[Melena]

Yeah. Now, after sending everyone else out of the room, Peter James was finally able to get an impression of the second spirit in the house.

[Ash]

Sorry, why does Peter James sound like such an official name?

[Melena]

It sounds very, like, delightful.

[Ash]

It does. It also sounds like a Hollywood star.

[Melena]

Hi, my name's Peter James. I'm here to fix things. I'd be like, yeah, you are cool. I trust you and I trust Peter James.

[Ash]

I know nothing about you, but I do know that your name is Peter James, and you will help us to be clear.

[Melena]

I know nothing about Peter James. Yeah, but I don't either. But I trust him based off his name. I don't need to know anything. Like, that's it.

[Ash]

He's so strong.

[Melena]

He's so strong. So. And Peter James was able to get an impression of the second spirit in the house. And later he told them what he'd learned. Now, according to him, the second spirit was that of a former domestic worker, A black woman who worked for the doctor who'd occupied the house in the early 1900s. Okay. James believed the woman was also the doctor's mistress, and the girl, Sally, was their daughter.

[Ash]

Oh, shit.

[Melena]

So we're getting tangly. The plot is plotting. Okay. But because an interracial relationship would have been socially unacceptable in that era, they had to keep their relationship and Sally's parentage a secret. So it gets thicker and more dark now. Tragically, Peter James was also able to see how the story ended. He said, I became empathic, and I was able to sense how she died. According to James, Sally contracted pneumonia when she was around 7 years old. And despite the doctor's best efforts, he was unable to save the girl. At that time, pneumonia was like. I mean, it's pneumonia. Died of pneumonia. Sally's death was an insurmountable event, and their relationship soon came to an end. They just couldn't survive that. How do you. But it resulted in a lot of bitterness in the part of the mistress, of course. Yeah.

[Ash]

And the mother.

[Melena]

Exactly. Now, after completing their. His investigation, Peter James told Tony and Deb he didn't believe they were in any real danger. And if they wanted to remain in the home, they would need only to be strong and not allow themselves to be bullied. The news was a comfort.

[Ash]

Like. Well, I'm trying not to.

[Melena]

And also, I'm like, she's pretty pissed. Like, she's got a lot to be pissed about.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

This woman, like, she's a mother of a child who died and also the mistress of this white doctor who won't even claim her. Yes. His own. Or her child. Or her child.

[Ash]

And then just probably moved on with the rest of his life when his daughter died.

[Melena]

And she's just left to pick up.

[Ash]

The pieces all alone.

[Melena]

You know, I'd be scratching left and right, scratching the shit out of people, especially men. Oh, you better believe nothing like a woman scorned. Nope. Now, the news was a comfort to Deb because, again, she's getting more insight.

[Ash]

She's like, I'm not a man.

[Melena]

Well. And she said, you know what? I feel like the more we find out about them, the better off we're gonna be. Yeah. And she said, I was so enamored with the activity. Like, I just. It was so fascinating to her and the fact that this is all kind of adding up. But to Tony, the results of the investigation only made him more fearful of what would happen if they stayed, which I get. Not only had he been assaulted several times, but he was also worried that if they continued living in the house, his mental health would continue to deteriorate to the point where something bad would happen.

[Ash]

Well, not only that, they have a son.

[Melena]

That's the thing.

[Ash]

Not a daughter.

[Melena]

Yeah. And he said, all I could think about was evil thoughts. All I could think was, I just want to hurt her. Oh, wow.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Melena]

And he's like, admitting that. He's like, I don't know. I didn't want to think those thoughts.

[Ash]

Yeah, of course not.

[Melena]

Now, given how serious Toni's fears had become, Deb finally agreed to put aside her interest in the paranormal and agreed that they should start looking for somewhere else to live. In the year and a half that they'd lived in the house, they'd managed to save a small amount of money and were finally able to. To actually move. But rather than continue to live in the house, Tony and Deb actually picked up some of their things and went to live with Tony's parents until they were able to find a new home.

[Ash]

So that shows you how serious this.

[Melena]

Yeah. And they didn't have the money, like, readily available to just get out of there. Yeah. Like this.

[Ash]

Well, you have to think your house may be infested with ghosts and demons and the like, but you still gotta pay rent.

[Melena]

Exactly. Now, in his assessment of the situation, Peter James believed that the paranormal activity in the house had become more aggressive and targeted Tony because of his disinterest in the whole situation.

[Ash]

Yeah, I could see that.

[Melena]

He said the activity escalated because Tony wanted less and less to do with the ghost.

[Ash]

Yeah. So they're gonna try harder and harder to get his attention. And that was probably so triggering.

[Melena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

To be the woman, the mother.

[Melena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because that's exactly what happened in life.

[Melena]

Yep. Now, this is what he said. This is why she pounced on him. Literally, violently. He said as a result of Tony's experiences, the ghost would go on to become known. Sally the man hater.

[Ash]

Dang. Now, which is funny because it's like, Sally's not the man hater, which they.

[Melena]

I mean, they're fairly certain. They don't know that it's Sally or that it's. He was saying. Yeah. They don't know who's actually doing the.

[Ash]

The pouncing.

[Melena]

Yeah. They think it's probably the mom protecting. But, like, we also don't know a lot about the father. Yeah. And we don't know what that situation was.

[Ash]

Well, and that makes you wonder too, like, more about the father, because he. Tony's being inflicted with, like, these jar.

[Melena]

What was that?

[Ash]

A glass.

[Melena]

I feel attacked.

[Ash]

Yeah, that was really fucking spooky. Did that come off of the shelf?

[Melena]

Yes.

[Ash]

And though I went. I got a glass from the shelf this morning. Those are firmly.

[Melena]

Oh, yeah, they were totally there. Like, it's been like. That's even harder to fall off because it's, like, got a lip to it.

[Ash]

And there's also a towel underneath it. So it's like, huh. It's always when we do paranormal episodes. Yeah. People probably think we make this up.

[Melena]

But I'm like, that. You probably heard that one.

[Ash]

You had to have heard.

[Melena]

You had to have heard that one. That was loud. That's the other thing. It fell with a lot of force. That was. That's a pretty light glass. Yeah, that was weird.

[Ash]

But I was saying.

[Melena]

Jesus.

[Ash]

I was saying it is interesting that, like, we don't know that much about the man because, like, the man who had lived there previously, because Tony's being inflicted by these dark thoughts, and it's like. Is that the man's energy? Yeah, because he, like, back then he was probably feeling angry and agitated toward the mistress for getting pregnant and then having to cover things up.

[Melena]

He had to fix the situation potentially, or had thoughts of fixing, quote, unquote, the situation. Right. And taking care of everything. So it's like this. You're. That absolutely could have been that.

[Ash]

I think there's more at play there than it sounds to me. At least like more than just two spirits.

[Melena]

I think so, too. Now, as soon as they moved out of the house, Tony's mental health improved dramatically. I bet he no longer had intrusive, negative, or violent thoughts. The couple went on to tell their story publicly, first on television and then in a book authored by Deb. But they've remained pretty private and prefer to stay out of the spotlight now. So they told the story, and then they were like, I mean, how do you not do what you will with it?

[Ash]

How do you not tell that story?

[Melena]

Now, the house and, you know, its new spectral inhabitants, on the other hand, have become one of the most popular places in both the state and country for paranormal investigators. Sally's house has been included on a popular Atchison ghost tour. You know, there's some slight twists to the story that they'll tell sometimes, but in the latest version of events, Sally, quote, died while in surgery to remove her appendix and hates men who walk in the house. Okay, I say latest version of events, but it's. I mean, I guess there's no real way to verify exactly what happened to her.

[Ash]

So that could probably just get different.

[Melena]

Feelings that could be a version of the events. The house and its, you know, spooky stories have definitely helped build the town's rep. Cause it's a small town. Small town's reputation as one of the most haunted towns in America.

[Ash]

That's so fun.

[Melena]

And a lot of people in Atchison welcome it. It's brought a lot of money from tourism. It's like a good thing as long as people are respectful. Yeah. In more recent years, the owner of Sally's house have opened the place up to the public. I saw that they allow for self guided tours in the fall months as well as events hosted by local paranormal groups, which is pretty fun. By 2020, visitors to Atchison were paying as much as $400 per night to stay in that house. Wow. All the excitement and interest led to Sally's house being valued at over $1 million. Damn. But within just a few months of it being listed in late 2020, the asking price had dropped to just under $500,000.

[Ash]

It's a smaller house.

[Melena]

That's the thing.

[Ash]

And it doesn't look like it has.

[Melena]

Like a ton of land or anything like that. No, exactly. Now, as of today, the Sallie house remains one of the biggest tourist draws to Atchison. And again, you can still book it for tours, overnight stays and I think you should go watch the Sam and Colby video now. I want to. We didn't do this in like, you know, collaboration with them in any way. I'm just trying to help.

[Ash]

Help, really trying to get them views.

[Melena]

I really, I really want to get their little channel going. You know, I'll never live that down that I was like, guys have.

[Ash]

You should listen Colby.

[Melena]

Yeah. Like such, such fun videos. You guys should give it a look. It. I found these new YouTubers but though their, their video on it is like wildly compelling, very interesting, lots of scratching happens happening. So definitely go check it out. But yeah, that's the Sally house. Sally the man hater.

[Ash]

That was a really fascinating one. And I don't. And also am desperate to want. I'm desperate to go there and I don't want to go there.

[Melena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

All at the same time.

[Melena]

That's how I feel.

[Ash]

But we will probably be going.

[Melena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Doable, drivable.

[Melena]

Yeah. All right. I would say so.

[Ash]

Cool.

[Melena]

Well, maybe we'll go. Maybe we'll do it. It's so spooky. It's so spooky.

[Ash]

Suka spooky. Today we're recording the first episode of the next season of the Rewatch or True Blood. So if you are a re. Watcher. Listener. Or you're not. Go check that shit out.

[Melena]

You should go check it out. Yeah.

[Ash]

We finished Buffy.

[Melena]

Yeah. In. In fun little tidbit. Andrew McMahon wrote our theme song for it.

[Ash]

Yeah. Hello.

[Melena]

So that's pretty cool.

[Ash]

A lot of you are fans.

[Melena]

Yeah. Of. You love Andrew just like we do.

[Instacart PSA Voice]

And.

[Ash]

And the song slaps.

[Melena]

It is a banger. I feel like we post it. We posted it on the Rewatcher and Morbid's socials yesterday. Go check it out. You got to listen to the song. It's so good.

[Ash]

It's so good.

[Melena]

So outside of what Andrew usually does. So it's fun.

[Ash]

A completely different vibe.

[Melena]

He also did a little video before it that you can see if you go to our socials where he refers.

[Ash]

To us as a friend. Yeah, as friends. I played it for Aiden last night and Dolores was very interested. She came to my laptop as it was playing and was wagging her tail.

[Melena]

I love that.

[Ash]

So my dog. Big fan, big fan, big fan. And you should be, too.

[Melena]

Go listen to it.

[Ash]

Yeah. We're really excited to start True Blood.

[Melena]

And to get that going. So it's gonna be fun. Yeah.

[Ash]

Go listen. And with that being said, we hope you keep listening.

[Melena]

And we hope you keep it.

[Ash]

But not so weird that you're a ghost in the afterlife who lines up toys in a circle and, you know, scares everybody and makes bears face the wall while you do nefarious as.

[Melena]

Yeah, okay. Don't make Tony feel weird about. No, never make Tony feel angry. Don't make Tony angry.

[Ash]

Tony so brown.

[Melena]

Don't. Don't make Tony angry.

[Ash]

I never met a Tony I didn't like.

[Melena]

I love that for you.

[Ash]

Oh, that's not true, actually. I take it back.

[Melena]

Bye.

[Ash]

Bye. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. And for decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. Get all your jobs done [e-mail], come.

[Instacart PSA Voice]

To DSW for the shoes.

[Ash]

Stay for the fun.

[Instacart PSA Voice]

Because let's be honest, if shoe shopping isn't fun, are you even doing it right? So go ahead. Try something new. Try something different, Good different. Try something that feels like you. You know, the real you. And then definitely brag about it later, because at dsw, you've got unlimited freedom to play. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores [e-mail], let us surprise you.