The Enfield Poltergeist

Summary

Morbid Podcast: “The Enfield Poltergeist”

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Episode Date: September 15, 2025
Main Theme:
A creepy deep dive into the infamous Enfield Poltergeist case—a 1970s haunting in North London—blended with Morbid's signature mix of research-heavy storytelling, banter, and skeptical inquiry.

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Episode Overview

Ash and Alaina mark the beginning of "spooky season" with one of the world's most notorious poltergeist cases: The Enfield haunting. They break down the facts, controversies, and impact of the story, exploring everything from the original disturbances to infamous levitating photos, media circus, and skeptical takes. Their chatty and candid style investigates both the supernatural and psychological angles, raising questions about truth, belief, and why some hauntings become cultural legends.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: The Hodgson Family and Their Hard Times

• Family Dynamics ([05:24]–[13:44])
  • The poltergeist activity began in August 1977 in Enfield, North London, affecting single mother Margaret Hodgson and four children: Peggy (13), Janet (11), Johnny (10, at boarding school), and Billy (7, with developmental disabilities).
  • The family was struggling post-divorce—financial instability, absent father, emotional hardship.
  • Extended family and neighbors provided support, but stressors were high, creating fertile ground for chaos.

“Poltergeists love nothing more than trying to break a family box.” —Ash ([05:31])

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The First Night: Shuffling, Knocks, and the Start of It All

• Initial Disturbances ([14:10]–[17:06])
  • August 31, 1977: Janet heard shuffling from the floor of her bedroom, followed by knocking sounds once her mother investigated.
  • Heavy furniture began to move on its own, culminating in a dresser that slid away from the wall and resisted being moved back—alarming both mother and children.

“She walks towards it and pushed it back against the wall... When she turns to walk away, it started sliding towards the door again.” —Alaina ([18:03])

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Escalation and Witnesses: From Legos to the Police

• Family Fleeing Next Door ([19:17]–[21:27])

  • The Hodgsons sought refuge at neighbor Vic and Peggy’s, worried Margaret would sound “cuckoo” if she told anyone what happened.
  • Vic investigated, heard unexplained knocking, and ultimately called the police when the activity persisted.

• Police Witness Paranormal Events ([23:05]–[24:47])

  • Officers, neighbors, and the family observed a chair move across the room on its own.
  • Police found no rational explanation, only offering to "keep an eye" on the house.

“In four full view of the Hodgson, Vic and Peggy and the officers, the chair began to wobble back and forth on its own and then slid 3 or 4ft in the direction of the kitchen.” —Alaina ([23:34])

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Paranormal Pandemonium: The Media, the Mirror, and Flying Toys

• Escalation with Projectiles ([24:49]–[29:47])
  • The next morning: the family is pelted by flying Lego bricks and marbles that felt heated, trusted witnesses present.
  • The Daily Mirror sends a reporter and photographer, who witness and document flying objects and are struck themselves.

“Morris saw something was coming at him out of the corner of his eye, and he turned just in time to be struck in the forehead with the sharp corner of a Lego brick.” —Alaina ([32:23])

• Introduction of Investigators ([33:30]–[37:29])
  • Maurice Gross from the Society for Psychical Research (SPR)—with a personal interest after losing his own daughter—takes on the case, with a logical but empathetic approach.
  • Journalist Guy Lyon Playfair later joins as a sympathetic chronicler and co-investigator.

“His only goal going in there... was that he wanted to protect these kids and he wanted to protect Janet, especially because he felt very connected... like, she.” —Alaina ([37:29])

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The Bulk of the Haunting: Levitation, Voices, and Possession

• Phenomena Intensifies ([38:26]–[45:17])

  • Objects moving, chairs flying while Janet is asleep, and LEGO assaults become routine.
  • Janet becomes the epicenter: “It was always around Janet,” Maurice Gross notices.
  • Attempts to make contact with the spirit through notepads, knocks, and later audio tape.

• Voice Manifestations ([56:09]–[58:01])

  • Believed contact with a “Joe Watson” and later “Bill,” communicating gruffly only when no adults are present.
  • The voice utters profanities, threats, and claims to be a dead resident.
  • Playfair and Gross defend the phenomena as authentic; skeptics suspect ventriloquism.

“The more they tried to persuade Joe to leave... the more abusive the voice became, telling them to fuck off and bugger off.” —Alaina ([58:19])

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• Lorraine and Ed Warren Visit ([44:13]–[46:10])
  • The famous American paranormal couple holds a séance, declares the family under attack by two spirits, and warns Margaret her "bitterness" is a vulnerability.
  • Their theatrical presence comforts Margaret but does not end the disturbances.

“‘Go away!’ Before launching into a fit of laughter that quickly escalated into what Playfair described as ‘a grotesque cackle like one of the Macbeth witches.’” —Alaina ([44:36])

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Hoax or Haunting? Media Scrutiny, Child Pranks & Lasting Mystery

• Hoax Accusations & Analysis ([47:55]–[70:29])

  • SPR investigators and ventriloquists like Ray Allen increasingly see hoaxing at work—trick voices, staged incidents, and the infamous “levitation” photo that just looks like a skilled jump.
  • Janet and Peggy are caught “adding to the activity”; they confess and later retract hoax admissions.

• Media Shifts from Belief to Skepticism ([67:44]–[70:32])

  • As the press tire, coverage turns sarcastic. The Mirror runs a “confession” story; public and serious investigators dismiss the case.

“One reporter reviewed the tape, described it as ‘a videotape of a cheeky young girl struggling to keep her lips closed and speak at the same time.’” —Alaina quoting a journalist ([69:01])

Childhood, Trauma, and the Power of Belief

• Psychological Interpretations ([72:09]–[72:44])
  • Deborah Hyde posits that the girls, seeking focused adult attention after family trauma, may have kept the haunting going for the sake of comfort and connection.
  • Ash and Alaina underscore the sadness of a haunting that may be a coping mechanism.

“People frequently see what they expect to see... I would find it plausible if somebody suggested that two bright girls, feeling abandoned by their father … could have been motivated to manifest a poltergeist.” —Alaina quoting Deborah Hyde ([72:25])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Poltergeists Loving Drama

  “Oh, poltergeist love nothing more than, like, trying to break a family box.” —Ash ([05:31])

• First Hint of Skepticism

  “Quit your larking about at bedtime. Which is honestly an adorable way to say that they were just, like, not going to sleep.” —Alaina ([15:25])

• Supernatural Meets Comedic Relief

  “It started raining when more Lego bricks and marbles started flying around the living room.” —Alaina ([27:37])
  “You all know the fucking pain of stepping on a goddamn Lego.” —Ash ([28:11])

• On the Nature of the ‘Poltergeist’ Voice

  “So now she’s a ventriloquist.” —Ash ([59:34])
  “It is fun to swear in an old man voice.” —Ash ([61:24])

• Blurring Fact and Hoax

  “I think maybe it started off as something, and then… the kids maybe ramped it up.” —Alaina ([73:48])

• Cultural Reflection

  “Neither side is any closer to proving either that it was real or that it was a hoax than they were on the day Maurice Gross arrived in the summer of 1977.” —Alaina ([73:21])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [04:37] — Announcing this episode’s focus: The Enfield Poltergeist
• [05:24]–[13:44] — Hodgson family background and setting
• [14:10]–[17:06] — Initial haunting night
• [23:34] — Police witness chair moving
• [27:37] — LEGO and marble-throwing escalation
• [32:23] — Mirror journalist struck with flying LEGO
• [33:30]–[45:17] — Investigators join case, early psychical research
• [44:13]–[46:10] — The Warrens’ séance and diagnosis of the haunting
• [56:09]–[62:45] — “Voice” manifestations, skepticism, ventriloquism
• [70:29] — Analysis of “levitation” photo
• [72:09]–[72:44] — Psychological interpretations and sadder realities

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Tone and Experience

Morbid delivers its signature blend of spooky deep-dives and irreverent humor, balancing supernatural intrigue with skepticism and plenty of personal asides. Listeners are drawn into a layered conversation—at times genuinely eerie, at others hilariously relatable—about the social, psychological, and cultural legacy of the Enfield haunting.

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Final Reflections

Ash and Alaina ultimately lean into the ambiguity: The Enfield Poltergeist remains unresolved, as much a study of human fear, loneliness, and media frenzy as of the paranormal. Was it all a child’s prank, or a poltergeist feeding on family upheaval? No one can say for sure, and that, the hosts suggest, is what makes the story endure.

"Still, there are those who... remain steadfast in their belief that the entire story... was genuine. Now, more than four decades later, neither side is any closer to proving either that it was real or that it was a hoax." —Alaina ([73:21])

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For those who haven’t listened:
This episode provides a full, nuanced account of what many call the world’s most famous poltergeist case, with all its mess, mystery, and a dose of Morbid wit. Whether you’re a believer, a skeptic, or just love ghost stories with heart, the Enfield Poltergeist episode delivers.

Transcript

[Ash]

Okay. Last night I had such a conflict in my life. I was wearing this brand new really cute set. It was pink and like really cozy. But I was also making a red sauce. And for some reason even on simmer, that sauce was bubbling all over the place and it popped up big giant bubbles of red tomato sauce all over my brand new light pink set. And I was really angry for a second. But then I said it's actually fine because I use tide free and gentle. And tide free and gentle has your back, honey. It delivers a powerful clean without perfumes, dyes or irritants tints. It's a hundred percent hypoallergenic care. Which is good because I also have sensitive skin. There's a lot going on in my life. It's a concentrated formula and that means less waste, zero extra water and more time for your next true crime Deep dive. It even works in cold water. Talk about cracking a cold case, honey. No cover ups or compromises here. If it's got to be clean, it's got to be tide free and gentle.

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[Ash]

Yes, just so many good brands.

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[Alina]

Hey weirdos. I'm Alina.

[Ash]

I'm Ash.

[Alina]

And this is morbid. Yeah, it's morbid in the the mid afternoon. And it is indeed.

[Ash]

I like the lighting in here right now.

[Alina]

Yeah, we set the lighting. We have those light bulbs that you can change to make them fun colors.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's like. This is like a weird way to describe it, but it's like cotton candy lighting.

[Alina]

No, it is a little bit. It's like pinky, bluey, purpley. I like it. I like it.

[Ash]

Jinx.

[Alina]

Hey, it's spooky season everybody.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's pre October.

[Alina]

It's pre October.

[Ash]

Proctober if you will.

[Alina]

Proctober. Not, you know, John Proctober. No, but maybe in.

[Ash]

Not good.

[Alina]

Maybe in Massachusetts. Yeah, goody. Proctober over here. And we're pretty excited about it. We got some really fun stuff coming up for you today. One of those things we're actually doing later today, actually.

[Ash]

I'm so excited.

[Alina]

Yeah, you'll find out about it later.

[Ash]

A few months. Yeah, you'll find out about it soon. In a while.

[Alina]

But, yeah, it'll be fun. I'm trying to think if there's any other fun updates we got. Our bonus episode just came out. We hope you guys are digging that one. We talked about Unknown number, the High School catfish documentary, and Holy.

[Ash]

The wildest documentaries I've ever seen. Everyone is talking about it too. I was listening to Sup this morning and I was crying at their coverage.

[Alina]

Yes. They're so funny.

[Ash]

They are so funny. If you don't listen to Sup, I don't know what the is wrong with you.

[Alina]

The Sexy Unique podcast.

[Ash]

Sexy unique podcast Podcast. We love Lara and Carrie so much.

[Alina]

Come on the show.

[Ash]

Come on the show. Come on the show. It would be so random.

[Alina]

It would be very random.

[Ash]

But I'd be like, what the fuck are we doing?

[Alina]

Bonus episode. That's what bonus episodes are for now. Yeah, once a month we get a bonus episode. In case you haven't heard. We've said it a few times, but just in case. I don't know when you're dropping in, you know, once a month, we're going to do a bonus episode in addition to our weekly episodes. It won't be taking up the place of a weekly episode. It will be in addition. Yeah, don't even think. Don't even think about that. But those bonus episodes are just gonna be like. I think we're gonna put a lot of guests on those bonus episodes. A lot of random documentary things, maybe some horror things. Like things that feel like they just need their own place.

[Ash]

Like, miscellaneous.

[Alina]

Yeah, miscellaneous things. So, you know, those are gonna be really fun, though. I have a feeling we're gonna end up thinking those are some of our favorite episodes. I think so too, and hopefully you guys feel that way. But you know what? Let's start. Let's start Goody Proctober early.

[Ash]

Okay. Well, no, it's. It's Goody Proctober now because it's pre October Proctober.

[Alina]

That's it. There you go. All right.

[Ash]

We're in Goody Proctober.

[Alina]

We're in it. We're in Goody Proctober right now.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

And we are gonna start putting some, you know, it's spooky season. Spooky season vibes are Coming out. And we're gonna cover the Enfield poltergeist today.

[Ash]

I feel like I've heard this talked about.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So much because I feel like we've talked about it with Dave like, a zillion times. But I don't know if I know, like, all the details.

[Alina]

Yeah, I definitely didn't know all the details before going into this.

[Ash]

I think this is Dave's favorite paranormal story.

[Alina]

Yeah. This is, like his favorite poltergeist.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

So, you know, it's gonna be good.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

So this is a crazy one. It's. It's just one part, but it's pretty long. It's a long story, but it's very interesting. Okay. And let's get into it, shall we?

[Ash]

Let us.

[Alina]

All right, so we're talking about a poltergeist here. And this affected, obviously, as most poltergeists do, an entire family.

[Ash]

Oh, poltergeist love. Nothing more than, like, trying to break a family box.

[Alina]

They love to do that. Yeah, They're. They're very reckless indeed. But they're very interesting. And I still don't know what they are like.

[Ash]

Well, when it's poltergeist y, I feel like it, like, involves. Am I wrong in saying it involves, like, electricity? Because that's how they travel.

[Alina]

Right. No, I think you're. You're correct. And I think it involved just like.

[Ash]

Like, physical movement and, like, gnarly energy and, like. Yeah. Like menacing energy.

[Alina]

Yeah. I think it can feed on, like, negative energy all the time.

[Ash]

That makes sense.

[Alina]

Like upheavals and changes and stress and, you know, change. Changing family dynamics. I think it can. It can. Really?

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Alina]

I know. I was just. As I said all that. I was like, check. Oh, no. I was like, which one in our family's gonna get a poltergeist?

[Ash]

Not it. I should not being the one.

[Alina]

No, we're fine. We've gone through some stuff. You guys know?

[Ash]

You guys know?

[Alina]

Yeah, we've been taking care of the madre.

[Ash]

The Madre. But also, things are so much better now because Madre is doing better. And two, we're with Sirius X7. We love it here.

[Alina]

Exactly. We're so much happ. Happier. So this. This poltergeist affected the Hodgson. The Hodgson. Why can't I say that? The Hodgson family. It's a little. I don't know why that was so hard for me to say.

[Ash]

Things happen.

[Alina]

Yeah. Certain sounds just. My mouth is like. No, I forgive you. My mouth is literally like. You don't know how to say that.

[Ash]

So Stop it, girl.

[Alina]

And the Internet will agree. So I don't, I'm like, oh God, I can't say, go outside, touch grass. Now. When this alleged poltergeist activity began, it was in the summer of 1977. And the Hodgson family consisted of the mother, Margaret, and three children, Peggy, who was 13, Janet who was 11, and Billy, who was 7 years old.

[Ash]

All right.

[Alina]

Peggy's other child, 10 year old Johnny, was at a boarding school. This was a boarding school for like kids who were getting up to something, you know.

[Ash]

For the reckless.

[Alina]

Yeah, for the reckless. For the lawless.

[Ash]

A boarding school for the lawless.

[Alina]

That's the official title.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

He was at a boarding school for the.

[Ash]

For the lawless.

[Alina]

That would be a great name, I think.

[Ash]

I mean that.

[Alina]

But you know, Margaret never really understood what exactly was wrong with Johnny though. Like what was going on, like. And I say wrong as in like, that's how you know, it was seen back then. Like, what's wrong with you? You got to go to a boarding school for the lawless.

[Ash]

Well, it was 1977, so there weren't a lot of options.

[Alina]

Exactly. Since her divorce from her husband three years earlier, the family had lived in one half of a duplex apartment in a council estate on Green street in Brimstown, which was a neighborhood of Enfield, which is a village in North London. Oh, I know like over you guys in, in the, in the. In Europe there you got like so many and I respect it. You've got like so many little. Like it's a village in the, you know, in the township. In the township of a council estate in this place. And I'm like, am I getting this correct? It's like, what's so. Yeah, so a council estate on Green street in the brimstone neighborhood of Enfield, which is a village of north in North London. Over there, just to place. You okay to drop a pin, if you will.

[Ash]

Here's the thing. I'm lost.

[Alina]

Here's the thing. I don't know where that is. So. Because this, the story focuses almost exclusively on the two young girls in the house, little is known about the boys. Like, there's not a lot that we.

[Ash]

Can really gather that happens a lot with poltergeist stories. Yeah, it really does. Girls coming of age, which is creepy on a poltergeist part.

[Alina]

It is, it's. It's sus. It is very suspect. The most sus, as the kids would say. It's us.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

So the boys. Everything's kind of described in like pretty vague terms. When it comes to them. Janet and Peggy, on the other hand, are frequently described as lively and athletic, as well as very clever and intelligent.

[Ash]

Oh, cute.

[Alina]

So in his book, this House is Haunted, author Guy Leon Playfair described Janet as being, quote, all energy, big for her age, jumping up and rushing around on the slightest pretest.

[Ash]

That just scared the. It just like ramped. It was like, oh, we should. Our ice maker just turned on.

[Alina]

Our ice maker just turned on. So I turned it off.

[Ash]

She really trotted across the room too. That was kind of adorable.

[Alina]

I trotted for you guys, like, here I am. So. Yeah. So Janet's very energetic, you know, jumping around, doing all that fun stuff. Peggy, meanwhile, was the opposite of Janet in nearly every way. She was pleasant, she was straightforward. But she was shy, you know, a little timid, and tended to keep her thoughts to herself.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

You know, while, while Janet is very outspoken, but she was also reported by some to be more. The more rebellious of the girls.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

Often defying her mother and threatening to run away. Behavior that kind of coincided with her parents divorce, which is very, you know, it's very normal behavior.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

According to Margaret, the divorce kicked off an extended rough patch for the family. And in the years that followed, she'd struggled to get back on her feet and was kind of often forced to go without and without, like basic things like telephone service, you know, like really struggled. Like many women in the 1970s, Margaret had been a full time mother for nearly all her adult life. So when the divorce happened, she didn't have like a ton of marketable skills for an employer and leading. That led to years of unemployment and in turn a lot of instability, like economically. So on top of all the financial stress that's going on and dealing with a divorce, like all that stuff, Margaret was like in constant fear that she was also going to be deemed an unfit mother.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Because she was struggling to provide essentially necessities.

[Ash]

Right.

[Alina]

Yeah. And she was also very worried because her son Billy, with someone who had developmental disabilities.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Alina]

And she was worried that the authorities were going to put him somewhere like a home. Because at that time that could happen.

[Ash]

Easily and that would have been awful.

[Alina]

Exactly. By all accounts, the divorce had been not amicable. Yeah.

[Ash]

It doesn't sound like it because it's also like, okay, where's the fucking dad? Providing anything.

[Alina]

Margaret was struggling to keep, you know, the anger and the bitterness that obviously came from the situation like that she. She struggled to keep what she felt about her husband from the kids.

[Ash]

That happens a lot.

[Alina]

It happens a Lot. As a result, the girls developed similarly negative opinions of their father and strenuously objected to any visitations, believing that he was the source of the family's problems. Okay, he might have been. So the situation was considerably exacerbated in 1977 when their father began dating and eventually moved in with a new girlfriend.

[Ash]

That's never good.

[Alina]

Which, according to Margaret, quote, had a distressing effect on the children. Well, yeah, because it's also like, it is sad.

[Ash]

And it's like your ex wife is struggling to provide basic necessities for your kids.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You're also responsible for that too.

[Alina]

Well, that's the thing. I'm like, what's happening?

[Ash]

You're just shacking up with a new lady.

[Alina]

And obviously like, I am. I have not dealt with like a divorce in custody and all that stuff. So I'm speaking from complete inexperience.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

But my thoughts on it have always been like, if you can try to keep the adult problems from the kids.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah. As a child of divorce, you really don't want to. Like, we appreciate it.

[Alina]

Yeah. Like you don't want to color their opinion about the other one. You know what I mean? But again, I'm speaking from complete inexperience, so I'll shut up about it because I don't want to piss.

[Ash]

No. Well, you're really not either because, like, we've experienced it in our family.

[Alina]

I've at least watched it. Yeah, well, and it can be talking from an outside perspective because it can.

[Ash]

Really color, like, relationships, like long term.

[Alina]

Yeah, that's the thing. But then in this case you're also saying, okay, so that shouldn't have been happening. But also, why isn't the father helping to make this life a little better for all of them? Their kids are included.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

So it seems like just a lot of. There's a mess happening here for sure. While the picture of this family and what was going on seems at times pretty bleak and dire.

[Ash]

Yeah, it does.

[Alina]

They were not without any kind of support network. Margaret's brother and his wife lived with their family just six doors down from them. And they were also friendly with their neighbors, Vic and Peggy, who occupied the other side of the duplex with their 20 year old son.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Alina]

Although both couples were in similarly strained financial situations, they did have like a lot of emotional and mental, like, bandwidth to give to each other. Like they would take, take care of each other in that situation. And they knew they could rely on each other in times of crisis, which is something that a lot of People don't have. So it's good that they did. So. The poltergeist activity that occurred in the home started like a pretty benignly on August 31, 1977. According to Janet, at around 9:30pm she was trying to get to sleep in the bedroom she shared with her brother Johnny, when they began hearing what she described as a shuffling sound that seemed to come from the floor of the bedroom.

[Ash]

Hmm.

[Alina]

So obviously the disturbance, you know, led them to get out of their bed and search around the room. Like, they're just like, what the fuck's going on? What's making that noise? Which drew Margaret from her bedroom, the mom, to check on them.

[Ash]

Yeah, like, what's going on?

[Alina]

You hear your kids moving around. You want to know what's going on? As the most energetic and mischievous of the children, Janet and Johnny always had a way of feeding each other's excitement and getting each other pretty worked up. The previous evening, Margaret had scolded the two for, quote, larking about at bedtime.

[Ash]

Quit your larking about.

[Alina]

Which is honestly an adorable way to say that they were just, like, not going to sleep.

[Ash]

You should write that down.

[Alina]

I should quit your larking about at bedtime. Because they had tried to convince her that their beds were quote, going all funny, shaking up and down.

[Ash]

Huh.

[Alina]

And this time, she was in no mood for the antics. She went into the room and she demanded to know what was going on, why they were out of bed, and they ex. You know. Janet explained that there was shuffling noises coming from the corner of the room, and Janet told her mother, sounds like the chair, which is weird. So Margaret grabbed the chair from the corner of the room and carried it downstairs because she was like, you know, what I removed won't cause a flaw. Actually, you remove the object of what's going on. And she returned to shut off the lights and remind them both that it was past their bedtime and time to go to sleep, assuming that was going to be the end of the whole evening's, you know, shenanigans, which you should never assume that.

[Ash]

No. Once it starts, it's not over that easy.

[Alina]

If you have kids, you know, you never assume that. We always do, but we are always wrong.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

So Margaret turned to leave the room, and when she went to leave, she actually heard the shuffling, but she was like, wait, is it coming from the room or is it coming from somewhere else? She couldn't figure it out, so she switched on the light and she started looking around the room because she's like, like you said, I Took out the chair. So where is this coming from? And as far as she could tell, everything was as it was supposed to be. And the children were in their beds, you know, arms and legs tucked under the blankets. They weren't able to, like, shuffle anything.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

So she was certain it wasn't the children, but still kind of uncertain what it actually was. She switched off the light for a second time and started to leave the room. And that's when the knocking started. Started.

[Ash]

Oh, not the knocking.

[Alina]

Not the knocking.

[Ash]

Hate the knocking.

[Alina]

This. And I'm thinking about this as, like, a parent, like, like, stressed out and this is happening, like, in their room. That would freak me the out.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Immediately I'd be like, okay, get the out of there. Like, you're not sleeping in this room.

[Ash]

No.

[Alina]

Unlike the shuffling, which was pretty quiet and, like, kind of subtle. That's why she initially left and was like, maybe I'm just.

[Ash]

Yeah, I mean, that makes perfect sense.

[Alina]

They all heard the series of four loud knocks and trace them to the wall that separated their apartment from Vic and Peggy's apartment next door.

[Ash]

So they're like, what the are Vic and Peggy doing?

[Alina]

Hey, Vic and Peggy, shut the fuck up. So Margaret had only started to run through the possible explanations for the sound when the heavy chest of drawers started to slowly slide away from the wall in the direction of the door.

[Ash]

What?

[Alina]

Very heavy chest of drawers. So she walks towards it and pushed it back against the wall.

[Ash]

Because, you know, that was a brave bitch moment.

[Alina]

You know, she's just trying to be, like, cool.

[Ash]

Nothing to see here.

[Alina]

And honestly, at bedtime, when you've had rough bedtimes with kids, you're like, you know what? It's fine.

[Ash]

She's like, wow, the floors are so slanted.

[Alina]

So crazy wild. So she just pushes it back against the wall. When she turns to walk away, it started sliding towards the door again. It was like, no, girl, I want to be over here this time. When Margaret tried to push it back in its place, it wouldn't move. No, it was like it had been nailed in place. It wouldn't budge.

[Ash]

It said, I like this position, putting it here. Said, I'm the interior designer now.

[Alina]

Now, at this point, Margaret wanted to run the fuck out of the house. Yeah. She wanted to get the out of there, but she didn't want to scare her children because she's a mom and.

[Ash]

It'S like, night time.

[Alina]

Yeah. So she was like, hey, why don't you gather up all your bedding, and we're gonna go sleep in the Living room. It's gonna be a fun little sleepover. Like, let's do this now. In times of crisis, like I said, Margaret had always been able to rely on her brother and his wife for support, which was particularly easy because they were very close to them. But at this time of night, she knew they would definitely be in bed asleep.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

And she didn't wanna wake them. Especially considering she didn't even know what she was waking them for at this point.

[Ash]

Like, she was like, hey, my chest is moving.

[Alina]

So instead, she got all four kids dressed and they went next door to Vic and Peggy's apartment, reasoning that if nothing else, she wouldn't be alone in the house with whatever was making the noises and moving furniture.

[Ash]

This poor woman. Because what the fuck do you say? And also, like, like to actually, like, put this in a more serious note. She was already worried that the, like, somebody's gonna come and take her kids away. Yeah. And now she's gonna sound like she's losing it.

[Alina]

Yeah, she's gonna sound a little cuckoo. So it's like that's.

[Ash]

Hello, guys. A mother low. What was that? Was that the calendar? Is it the calendar? I guess. I thought we stopped that. Damn, that was so loud and so scary. What does it say?

[Alina]

Nothing.

[Ash]

No, don't. You're shitting me.

[Alina]

No, I am not. You.

[Ash]

You.

[Alina]

It says nothing. There is nothing new on this. It didn't.

[Ash]

There's no popup? Nope. Do you hear the crows outside? Do you hear that? Do you literally hear that? Guys, this is.

[Alina]

We're not even with you.

[Ash]

No, no, no. I wish I was making it up, in fact. Cuz that we are. Here's the thing. We're like going somewhere spooky tonight.

[Alina]

But it's.

[Ash]

We're somewhere spooky now.

[Alina]

We're living somewhere spooky.

[Ash]

It is October. What the holy. I don't like that. That plays that music so loud.

[Alina]

I don't like that at all. Listen, whoever this is, like, we're just telling this story.

[Ash]

It's just. It's just a case.

[Alina]

Yeah, we're not trying to anything.

[Ash]

Like, I know I sound probably like insane in the membrane, but it's weird that the crows started calling when that happened. And I. I just wanted to put that out for the room.

[Alina]

We're just putting it out there, you know? I'm going to continue.

[Ash]

Goody Proctor.

[Alina]

Goody proctober. I'm literally obsessed with that.

[Ash]

Wait, but can I have confirmation though, that you too think it's weird?

[Alina]

I do.

[Ash]

That the crow's starting point.

[Alina]

I do. I'm just trying to.

[Ash]

She's fidgeting.

[Alina]

I'm fidgeting. I'm touching things.

[Ash]

I really just want. I'm fidgeting.

[Alina]

I'm touching things. I want it to stop. So, you know, they listened to Margaret's story. Vic and Peggy, they were like, you know, yeah, totally. Like, they were very polite, like, we're not gonna cut you off. We're gonna listen to your tale. But they didn't believe a word of what she was telling them.

[Ash]

Oh, that's fucked up. Yeah. My neighbor comes to my house in the middle of the night. It'd be weird, but I'd be like, I would listen to them. If they were experiencing a haunting.

[Alina]

They listened. And Vic agreed to take a walk around the house to make sure no one was trying to break in.

[Ash]

That's nice.

[Alina]

After walking through the apartment and checking every potential hiding spot, Vic and his son were about to leave when they all started hearing the series of knocks. Stop it. This time coming from the outside wall, not the wall that was separating their apartments. I hate that. So assuming it was one of the children playing a prank, Vic and his son Gary ran outside to see who was banging on the wall. But when they got out in the alley, they found it completely empty. So at a loss for what to do next, they all just reconvened and determined the only thing they could do was call the police. They didn't know what else to do. They were like, someone's knocking on our door and wall. Like, I guess. And running away. That's not okay.

[Ash]

Somebody is.

[Alina]

They're keeping us up.

[Ash]

Somebody is knock, knock. Ditching us.

[Alina]

Yeah. Now, when the call was placed to emergency services, the caller had only reported that there was a disturbance in the house. So the officers. Yeah, the officers who arrived on the scene expected a fight or some other physical emergency. But when they entered the Hodgson's living room, they were immediately greeted by Margaret, who informed them, quote, I think this house is haunted. Which, like, Margaret, Maggie, it's gonna be tough. It's gonna be tough to get out of that one.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

After listening to the story about a strange shuffling noise and the furniture moving back and forth on its own, the officers naturally assumed it could be a break in. So for the second time that night, the Hodgson's apartment was searched from top to bottom.

[Ash]

What?

[Alina]

So they found nothing in the upstairs bedrooms. And the officers moved to the first floor and were about to give up when Johnny called everyone's attention to a chair in the corner of the living room. Okay, remember, police officers are here now.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

In four full view of the Hodgson Vic and Peggy and the officers, the chair began to wobble back and forth on its own and then slid 3 or 4ft in the direction of the kitchen.

[Ash]

And you said in front of the cops.

[Alina]

In front of the Hodgson Vic and Peggy and the cops.

[Ash]

Yo, I'd be so.

[Alina]

With no one touching it.

[Ash]

Here's the thing. I would be over the moon over just so if I was like the cops and I didn't live there, I'd be like, this is awesome.

[Alina]

I'd be like, thank you so much for letting me leaving now. Bye.

[Ash]

I'd be like, yeah.

[Alina]

When one of the officers, WPC Heaps, checked the chair, she found no signs of a wire or anything else. That explains the movement. Cuz she was looking like, okay. What are you guys doing?

[Ash]

You tricking me?

[Alina]

Nothing. There was nothing attached to it, but still no one appeared to be breaking any laws. And they couldn't identify the source of the disturbance. So there was really nothing the officers could do but promise to keep an eye on the house over the next couple of days and just leave them. They were like, sorry, yeah, happy hauntings. Like, I don't know what to say. That night they all slept together in the living room, hoping that things would resolve themselves by the next morning.

[Ash]

Things like that don't really resolve themselves.

[Alina]

And they didn't hear because, yeah, those hopes were dashed. By the time the sun came up, Margaret had barely finished rousing her four children in the living room when suddenly she felt something lightly strike her thigh like a. And she looked down to see one of Billy's LEGO bricks lying on the floor by her foot.

[Ash]

Oh no.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

This show is sponsored by Better Help. I am kind of an oversharer sometimes. I'll be having a day and the barista will be like, oh my God, how are you doing, girl? And I'm like, well, this is going wrong. That's going wrong. You know, I have this to do, but I don't know. I'll get through it. You know what, though? There's a difference between that and actually talking with a therapist, which we should all be doing. And that's where Better Help comes in. With clinically trained and licensed therapists, they've been around for over a decade. They've helped millions. And out of 1.77 million client reviews, they've got a 4.9 rating. That's iconic. Better Help. Does the initial matching work for you so that you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and if you're not happy with your match, all you have to do is switch to a different therapist at any time. BetterHelp is fully online and you can pause your subscription whenever you need to. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of Expertise. Find the one with better help. Our listeners get 10 off their first month at betterhelp.commorbid that's BetterHelp H E L P.commorbid More perks, more Value Join.

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[Alina]

So Margaret asked, like, pretty annoyed at this point. Janet, did you throw that? Like, what the fuck?

[Ash]

Yeah, like why are you throwing shit at me?

[Alina]

And Janet was like, no, I did not throw anything. Like I wouldn't do that. And she and all of her brother, like her siblings were like, no, we did not not do that. Like nobody did that. And then quickly they were interrupted. All they're like, no, I didn't do that. It started raining when more Lego bricks and marble started flying around the living room.

[Ash]

Oh, it literally started raining Legos.

[Alina]

Margaret later described the situation as if, quote, someone were shooting them as if from a catapult. Oh, so they're being like launched across the living room.

[Ash]

You all know the fucking pain of stuff stepping on a goddamn Lego.

[Alina]

The pain of stepping on a Lego.

[Ash]

Imagine being pelleted by one though. Ouchy.

[Alina]

I can't, I can't imagine I simply.

[Ash]

Getting shot by a Lego is crazy word.

[Alina]

Yeah, it's an. And marbles.

[Ash]

Yeah, cuz marbles work too. If they, if they're like thrown at you.

[Alina]

I can't imagine this. Now Margaret again found herself desperate in the face of Something she literally couldn't understand and couldn't even explain.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

So she returned to Vic and Peggy's apartment and rushed back to the living room with them being like, look, what's going on? Wanting someone else to witness what was happening, Peggy called her father, who rushed over to the house. And as the group stood in the kitchen, two large marbles rocketed past Peggy's father, slamming into the bathroom door before dropping to the floor.

[Ash]

What the fuck?

[Alina]

When he picked them up to look at them, the marbles were incredibly hot, like they'd been fired from a gun. Oh. Like they were just burning. Yeah. As promised, the local police stopped by the house later that morning because they said they were going to keep a watch and found the family still in distress. But by that time, the activity had stopped. But one of the constables, an older gentleman, sat down with the children and explained that sometimes things happen and we don't always know why, but there was nothing to worry about, which is really.

[Ash]

Nice of him, especially in the 70s.

[Alina]

Whether or not that little chat made them feel better is something I can't say.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

But it definitely did. Not a lot to come. Margaret's growing fear and anxiety. Cause she was just waiting for another attack. At which point this.

[Ash]

Whatever this is, is probably just feeding.

[Alina]

Off of that anxiety and fear. The next few days went by with intermittent interruptions of knocking, some moving objects, and the family gathered in the living room. And they tried and failed to sleep for the next few nights. It was just. It was really bad. Yeah.

[Ash]

Stressful.

[Alina]

By September 4th, Margaret had become exhausted. And the strain of all this disruption was very apparent to everyone around her. So concerned about her health and safety, Vic, her neighbor, suggested he take the family back to the police in the hope that they could maybe put them up somewhere for a few days so they could at least get a good night's sleep.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Which was very nice.

[Ash]

That was sweet.

[Alina]

But Peggy had what she thought might be a better idea rather than go back to the police, who had kind of been like, I. I don't want to say they've been little help. They. They were little help, but like, they really. What else are they going to do? Like, they've been as much help as they could be.

[Ash]

You can't place the poltergeist in handcuffs. Yeah.

[Alina]

So they did what they could. I mean, they tried to, like, calm the kids and everything. And they did come back to the house when they promised they would, which was kind. So Peggy suggested that they call the Daily Mirror to see if they had any Ideas.

[Ash]

All right.

[Alina]

One of the UK's most notorious tabloids.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

The Daily Mirror had a reputation for publishing pretty sensational stories and a lot of lurid scandals.

[Ash]

I think they still do.

[Alina]

Yeah. According to Guy Playfair, there was supposedly, quote, an unwritten law on that paper that ghost stories were taboo. Oh, okay. But the paper had published a lot of articles about ghosts and hauntings in the recent past, so it was maybe not so much. They didn't really adhere to it. Whatever the case, Peggy got lucky when she called that Sunday evening and reached the deputy night editor, who was very intrigued, and sent reporter Douglas Benz and photographer Graham Morris to investigate the claims. The two spent the entire evening in the Hodgson home, but never witnessed any unusual activity and eventually decided to pack up and leave a little after 2am, which I was like, 2am, you got to stay till at least three. They hadn't been out of the house for more than a minute when the Lego bricks started flying around the room again, which made Peggy's father rush outside and call them back into the house. Morris told a reporter in 2022, to start with, we thought it was a hoax, but I saw things happen, and it convinced me there was something happening in that house. Standing in the kitchen with Margaret, Morris saw something was coming at him out of the corner of his eye, and he turned just in time to be struck in the forehead with the sharp corner of a Lego brick. Yeah. He said later. I knew that no one was throwing anything because I could see everybody in the room.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Despite seeing the Legos flying across the room, they appeared to be moving too quickly, and Morris was unable to get any of them, like, clearly on film.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

Because they were, like, launching.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

When they returned to the office the next day, the two men told senior reporter George Fallows what had happened the night before, and he immediately was interested in the story. Later that afternoon, they all returned to the Hodgson house, where they listened patiently as Margaret recounted all the events of the previous week. When she finished the story, the reporter looked at her right in the eye and told her, I accept what you say. I'm not an expert, but I've done a lot of reading on this sort of thing. I think that what you have in your house is a poltergeist. Wow. I love that. He was just like, I accept what you say. So kind of. Fallows went on to explain to Margaret that in his reporting, he'd seen some things of this nature before and felt the best thing they could do was contact someone at the Society for Psychical research. The spr.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

A collection of volunteer journalists, scientists and paranormal enthusiasts founded in the late 19th century to investigate supernatural experiences. So relieved that someone was finally having some kind of belief and idea of what they were dealing with. Margaret was like, like hell yeah, let's go. And Fallows immediately reached out to the SPR for some a consultation. So in response to this request for help, the SPR assigned the case to their newest member who was 58 year old electrical engineer. Wow. An inventor, Maurice Gross. So Gross had like, he, he looked at it like very logically. His like the supernatural and all of this, which is a good way to look at things because he's one that's going to look at it in a way that he's going to want to try to debunk it.

[Ash]

Yeah, like an unbiased way.

[Alina]

But his youngest daughter Janet had died a year earlier and so his interest now became like much more personal because he was looking for proof of life after death.

[Ash]

Oh, that's heartbreaking.

[Alina]

Which just breaks my heart.

[Ash]

Absolutely it does.

[Alina]

Now what happened to his daughter? Janet was in August of 1976. She was 22 years old and was traveling on the back of a motorcycle driving through the center of Cardiff when the driver lost control and crashed and he was killed instantly. And he left Janet with serious injuries and she died the following day. Oh, that's awful. Naturally, Janet's death was devastating for her parents. Of course it took a serious toll on their marriage. Their most emotional health, like all, all the things you would imagine. And in the wake of his daughter's death, Maurice delved deeper into his supernatural interests because again he really wanted to look for proof of life after death. And he believed that Janet had actually had a premonition of her death a short time earlier and had become determined to find that she did know that that was about to happen and that her soul had lived on after her body had died. As the newest member of the spr, Gross hadn't really participated in a lot of investigations. So he hadn't dealt with a lot of like the hoaxes and the disappointments that a lot of the more like seasoned members have.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

But either way he was just very enthusiastic about this. He wanted to just get his feet wet.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

He had only just walked through the Hodgson's front, front door before he was pretty certain that something was up here. He later told Playfair, you can't fake that. Everything they told me was typical of poltergeist cases straight out of the book, since they didn't even know what a poltergeist was until Fallows told them. How would they know what to say if they were making this all up? Yeah. Now, Gross's presence was an immediate, you know, soothing feeling for the chaotic house. Like, they felt like, okay, he's here. He believes us.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

And he's here to, like, figure this out and help us get rid of it. He was very supportive in, like, a very, like, fatherly way to the family and immediately took to the children and they took to him. Cause he is a dad.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alina]

He's got that way about him. Yeah. And most importantly to them, he seemed to believe everything that every man member told him. Like, he was just willing to accept what they were saying. And then he was like, and we'll see if we can prove it. But he was still, like, very untested in this territory. You know what I mean? Yeah. Former paranormal investigator John Hasted said later, when you go to such a disturbed family and you are not a professional psychiatric social worker, you feel ashamed of yourself. You feel that you shouldn't be investigating them. You should really be helping them.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

By all accounts, Maurice Gross never seemed to struggle with dealing with this family, like, emotionally and on this, like, supernatural, investigatory level. He simply believed everything they told him. He didn't seem to go in there with the idea that this was definitely a hoax.

[Ash]

Yeah, he was open to whatever it.

[Alina]

Was, which I don't think he should have.

[Ash]

No.

[Alina]

You want to go in over there? You should go in there completely open to what's going on and then decide based on the evidence.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

But his only goal going in there, too, like, his main goal, I should say, was that he wanted to protect these kids and he wanted to protect Janet, especially because he felt very connected. Like, she.

[Ash]

I mean, there's a daughter, Janet, right there.

[Alina]

Now, according to Bob Cody, can I.

[Ash]

Actually just point out how, like, isn't that wild? Life works in mysterious.

[Alina]

That is really weird.

[Ash]

I feel like that has meaning.

[Alina]

I feel like he was brought in for reason.

[Ash]

Yeah. 100%.

[Alina]

Now, we've. We've sourced all, like, cited all these in the show notes, so you can take a peek. But according to Bob Cody, after reviewing the request from the Hodgsons, the senior members of the SPR didn't believe there was anything in the Enfield case or expect it to be particularly important at first. So they assigned it to Maurice Gross, assuming he would look into it and find nothing there. Gross, however, threw himself fully into this investigation without hesitation. And within a few days in the house, his commitment was starting to pay off.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

In the early morning hours of September 8, 1977, Maurice Gross and the men from the Daily Mirror were sitting on the landing outside Janet's bedroom while the girl was sleeping inside. And they heard a loud crash from inside the bedroom. They rushed in and saw that the chair that had been sitting next to Janet's bed had been thrown about four feet and was overturned near the center of the room.

[Ash]

Jesus.

[Alina]

Janet. She woke up, but she was, like, groggy and, like, not awake, and she said she had been asleep when that happened. It was just shot out of sleep.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

So Gross put the chair back where it belonged and went back to the landing. About an hour later, they heard the same noise. And when they rushed in, they found the chair had again been thrown to the center of the room. Wanting to be sure Janet had, in fact, been asleep and not just playing a prank.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Gross approached the sleeping girl and gently forced the lids of one of her eyes apart to find the eyeball upturned, offering that up to the men from the Mirror as proof that the activity was genuinely paranormal in nature. He told the reporters, it's almost as if she were unconscious.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Which I can see that. Yeah. A few days later, during a lecture put on by the spr, Gross announced to the room that he was certain that he was onto a genuine poltergeist case and could use some help. But a lot of people weren't taking him seriously or having any interest in joining his team. Which makes me sad.

[Ash]

Them.

[Alina]

In fact, out of the room full of people, only one journalist guy, Leon Playfair, approached Gross after the lecture and told him he would very much like to assist him and report on the activity, which Gross was like, hell, yeah, brother.

[Ash]

He's like, you're my only. You're my only hope, Literally.

[Alina]

He said that.

[Ash]

He said, pre Mandy Moore. Yeah.

[Alina]

At the time, Playfair had just finished the final edits on the Cycles of Heaven, which was an exploration into extraterrestrials and cosmic forces on the body.

[Ash]

That sounds fun.

[Alina]

It does sound cool. And was looking for his next project, although the idea of diving right back into a new paranormal story right after finishing one didn't appeal to him, like, a lot right now. He was pretty charmed by Maurice Gross's enthusiasm. He was like, he really believed this shit. He got me. And he seemed very sincere. That was the thing. And he didn't want to miss this opportunity with that kind of enthusiasm.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

So with the addition of Playfair, there were now four or five Men regularly camped out in the Hodgson's apartment, and they were routinely treated to a variety of supernatural activity, ranging from marbles and Legos flying around the room to drawers and cabinets opening and closing on their own. In fact, the frequency of the activity and Janet's proximity to it seemed wild. Like it was starting to get, like, even. Like, at this point, Maurice Gross said that he was even a little suspicious at this point because it was like always around Janet.

[Ash]

Yeah. And there's three other kids.

[Alina]

And again, they have to be suspicious. You have to be.

[Ash]

I would be, too. Yeah, totally.

[Alina]

A few days after bringing Playfair on board, Gross had a talk with Margaret and insisted she keep an eye on her daughter as often as possible. And he told her, he said to Margaret, I'm not saying she's playing tricks, but we can't rule out the possibility that this thing is working on her mind, making her do things without knowing why. That was a smart way to approach it. That really was. It was at that moment that Gross established what is one of the most frequently criticized parts of this case. In the same breath, he did say, it's possible that Janet is the one responsible for everything in the house. But he was also ruling out the possibility of a hoax by saying that it was caused by a supernatural force. So that's what a lot of people criticize this for. I see it as a way of soothing the mom and not getting her defensive by being able to think your kid is causing this. Yeah, because I would get defensive about that.

[Ash]

Of course you would. And you'd probably ask her mom to leave.

[Alina]

And so I think he was doing it as a way to get her to make sure she was watching Janet while also making her feel heard and not like she was being accused of that.

[Ash]

That's what I think. Because also he wanted to stay and get to the bottom of this.

[Alina]

Exactly.

[Ash]

And if he approached it the other way, she might have been like, okay, then, like, go away if you don't think I'm.

[Alina]

Go if you don't believe me. Now. On September 10th, the. The story was published on the front page of the Daily Mirror in an article written by George Fallows, with photographs by Graham Morris.

[Ash]

It's so funny. It's like, right around this time.

[Alina]

Yeah, it is. And we didn't plan it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

The article was relatively straightforward, talking about what the Hodgsons had claimed had happened in the house leading up to the article concluding quote. To the best of our ability, we have eliminated the possibility of total trade trickery. Okay. Now, not surprisingly, the article was met with skepticism and, you know, a lot of disbelief. Right. And it attracted the attention of other media outlets all wanting to know more about this situation. Now, just days after the Daily Mirror article, Gross and Margaret Hodgson appeared on a television call in program Nightline. After listening to Margaret tell all about the activity, the hosts opened the phone lines and caller after caller after started sharing their own paranormal experiences.

[Ash]

That's so fun.

[Alina]

Including a few who told stories of levitation and some who claimed to have witnessed supposed possessions in which the possessed individual started speaking in a voice that was not their own. I hate. So scary. Now, in the weeks after that, the activity in the house seemed to escalate. You know, the knocking on the walls became more frequent, objects were moving on their own, and the household was general, generally disturbed from morning to night.

[Ash]

Right.

[Alina]

Wow. Believing the entity was attempting to make contact with them, Gross reached out to Lorraine Warren. Do you know, do you know her? Heard her. An American Medium, recommended by television host Paul Beard. By mid October, Lorraine had made her way to London accompanied by her husband Ed.

[Ash]

We know him.

[Alina]

And the two visited the Hodgson's home in order to contact whatever was causing the disturbance. Positioned in a chair at the center of the room, Lorraine went into some sort of trance. And soon after, she claimed to have made contact with the unit identity.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

With Ed Warren, you know, let's go. With Ed Warren. Only a few inches from her face, Lorange suddenly shouted, go away.

[Ash]

Go away.

[Alina]

Before launching into a fit of laughter that quickly escalated into what Playfair described as, quote, a grotesque cackle like one of the Macbeth witches. Which is actually genuinely scary.

[Ash]

Yeah, that is pretty scary. I feel like I'd probably shit my pants.

[Alina]

Yeah. After communing with the entity, Ed Warren explained that the Hodgson family was under attack from two spirits he referred to as Gozer and Elvie. This Gozer is a nasty piece of work, Ed told Gross in Playfair. A sort of black magic chap. The other one, Elvie, is an elemental.

[Ash]

Ooh. Okay. What?

[Alina]

And Gozer is using her. He's the boss. If we get her out of the way, the whole setup will fall apart.

[Ash]

Okay, this sounds a little.

[Alina]

I kind of love this.

[Ash]

Sounds a little wild, but I love it. I'm not saying I hate it.

[Alina]

The Warrens explained that a psychic weakness and a very disturbed family condition had created the circumstances that allowed the two demonic entities to enter their lives.

[Ash]

That does make sense.

[Alina]

Although they had been speaking in extremely vague terms, the explanation resonated with Margaret, who told them that she had indeed been bitter since her divorce, and the family had been struggling since that time. Yeah, true to Guy Playfair, the Warren's performance in the Hodgkin's living room seemed like a very dramatic bit of theater. But Maurice Gross believed the couple's claim of psychic ability and their story of demons and elementals. So who can be sure? Whatever the case, the Warrens visit seemed to provide Margaret with some comfort. Okay, so she at least was getting answers, which is nice. So Playfair saw no reason to challenge their involvement.

[Ash]

I get that.

[Alina]

But that was really the extent of their participation in this love that while the Warrens visit may have brought some comfort to the family, it really didn't do anything to stop the activity, which by the end of October had extended outside the home and into the classroom. Oh, no. After a few days, Janet's teachers, who were aware of the children's difficulty adjusting to the divorce, had lost patience with her and referred her to a social worker and clinical psychologist.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Alina]

Despite all the activity around her, Janet never seemed all that bothered by the constant disruptions at Homer School. She told Maurice Gross in early November, I'm getting used to it.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Alina]

But one evening, while Gross was asking Janet questions about her experiences, she did say that there was one thing that did scare her, which makes me sad Every now and then, often when she was trying to get to sleep, she felt like someone was putting a hand over her nose and mouth in order to stop her from breathing.

[Ash]

Oh, that's terrifying.

[Alina]

Full chills.

[Ash]

I would fist fight whoever that was.

[Alina]

I hate that a lot.

[Ash]

Invisible or not.

[Alina]

Yeah, I hate that a lot. Gross got up and left the room, turning the lights out as he left. He hadn't been outside the room for more than a minute or two when he heard a loud crash and went rushing back up the stairs. And in Janet's room, he found her sitting up in bed. And the chair, which was usually next to the bed, had been thrown to the center of the room. Janet said there was an old man sitting on the chair. He was putting his hands on my face. I couldn't breathe. Which like, like. Oh, I'm like, is that goer probs now. For nearly three months, Gross and Playfair, along with one or two men from the Daily Mirror, were camped out at the Hodgson's home, with at least the former two completely convinced that something supernatural was happening.

[Ash]

I don't know how you could be.

[Alina]

Unconvinced something bad's happening, you know. Others who visited the house were less convinced when senior members of the SPR visited the house in early November, they witnessed Janet and her sister, quote, add to the activity with some tricks of their own. Okay.

[Ash]

Well, yeah. Yeah.

[Alina]

Leading them to conclude that in all likelihood, this whole thing was a hoax. No.

[Ash]

It's like adding to it is one thing. Obviously, like, it doesn't look great, but they're kids.

[Alina]

Yeah. And play fair. And Gross said that the girl's obvious tricks were not really concerning to them.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Like, they. They could tell what they were, and they could tell what they weren't.

[Ash]

Probably a way of coping with this all.

[Alina]

Whenever it got brought up that, like, you know, it seems like whenever we're not looking, these things are happening. Like. Like when you leave Janet's room.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

And the chair is being thrown. Gross and Playfair would say, it's smarter than we are. Look at its timing. The moment you go out of the room, something happens. You stay in the room for hours and nothing moves. It knows what we're up to.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

They figured it only happened like, that. It was. It had nothing to do with childish pranks. It was just. Just a smart entity.

[Ash]

Right.

[Alina]

That's all. And, I mean, who knows?

[Ash]

Could be.

[Alina]

In the weeks and months that followed, there were more visitors to the house who, like, the more experienced members of the spr, found that they didn't really believe a lot of it. They thought it was a hoax.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

The stories in the Daily Mirror attracted other journalists who all seemed a little, like, annoyed by the whole thing, which, like, is sad.

[Ash]

Yeah. There's, like, kids being affected.

[Alina]

Yeah. That's the thing. And a short article, a November edition of the observer made an innocuous comment about Gross being, quote, a newcomer to the spr, and he wrote a response to clarify. He said, I think it's only fair to both myself and the society I represent to point out that although I'm. I am comparatively a new member, I have been actively involved in the study of parapsychology for nearly 40 years. Absolutely. Good for him.

[Ash]

He should put that out there.

[Alina]

Yeah. It's like. Don't.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alina]

Don't. Don't talk about me like I'm. I didn't know this.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like, I just stepped on the scene. Exactly.

[Alina]

The London newspapers weren't the only ones who grew skeptical of the family and were, you know, questioning aspects.

[Ash]

You know, what that thing is, though? People just get so sick of a story once it's been reported on for a while and they want to move on to the next thing.

[Alina]

Yeah. In her summary Article for the Journal of the Society for Cyclical Research, SPR member Anita Gregory concluded that Janet and her sister were, quote, non psychically responsible for many of the incidents that were attributed to poltergeist phenomena. Now she said many, not all.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Also, Gregory acknowledged that whatever was happening in the house might have had a supernatural origin. But after a few months, quote, it had turned quickly into a farcical performance for investigators and reporters desiring a sensational story. So they're admitting that there was some supernatural thing here?

[Ash]

Yeah, I mean, like the cops said, they saw it.

[Alina]

Anita Gregory's summary of the case was, like, pretty charitable, actually, compared to other people who were talking shit about this whole thing. But as time went by, the growing number of vocal skeptics came to far outnumber the true believers, unfortunately leading Margaret to bar all investigators and reporters from the house.

[Ash]

I would, too.

[Alina]

Other than their, you know, Maurice Gross and Guy Playfair, because they were the only ones that were willing to listen.

[Ash]

And were being respected.

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[Ash]

Yes, Just so many good brands.

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[Alina]

It's the little things that make us the happiest. The thermometer, final reading, sweater weather. Your Jack o' lantern. Somehow surviving all the way through the season. That email finding you cozy, that subtle hit of pumpkin and fall spice in your McCafe Cup. Try our sweet fall drinks, like pumpkin spice lattes, caramel lattes, caramel frappes, and more at McDonald's. Price and participation may vary. Limited time only. Gross said to play fair. What beats me is the obsession these people have with what they call fraud. It's all they can think about. But even Playfair had started to, at this point, question whether they also might be victims of a host of a hoax. Excuse me.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

Which, like, I get it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

They have to think that way. On one occasion, after a large chest of drawers had crashed against the wall in Janet's bedroom, Playfair listened back to the tape recorder he'd left in the room, and he, quote, heard suspicious creaking noises, as if someone like Janet had slipped up to the chest. Which I'm also like. Do you know her specific creaking noises?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Like what? Like what? Like, I don't know about that. So in early November, just a few days after Janet's 12th birthday, Playfair and Gross decided it was time to make contact with whatever was tormenting the family, reasoning that if they knew what it wanted, they would be better equipped to make it go away.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

They had tried this before by using a series of knocks, but it wasn't successful. This time, they decided they would leave several notepads and pencils laying around the apartment. And within days, the messages, all in crude handwriting and capital letters, started appearing, which is pretty creepy. On the first occasion, Margaret was standing in this kitchen and said to the seemingly empty room, leave me a message so I can help you, if possible. Without knocking, Margaret left the room. And when she returned five or 10 minutes later, she found the response scratched out on the sheet of paper. I will stay in this house. Do not read this to anyone else, or I will retaliate.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Alina]

Which is fucking terrifying.

[Ash]

And also, retaliate is a very big word for a child.

[Alina]

Exactly. Almost immediately, Playfair noticed that the message had not been written on a sheet of paper from the pad, but on a page torn from one of Janet's school notebooks. Though she insisted it wasn't her that wrote the note, and they decided to believe her. Okay, so there's that. All right, we're gonna give you all sides of this story.

[Ash]

We gotta give you all the facts.

[Alina]

The following day, during a phone call with her ex husband, the couple got into an argument. When the subject of the poltergeist came up, her ex husband believed the entire thing was a prank. In a moment of impulsivity, Margaret blurted out what the poltergeist had written on the pad. And then she immediately remembered that it was a warning and said, don't tell anyone. So she shouted out, oh, I'm sorry. Like, speaking to the poltergeist, and hung up the phone. A few minutes later, when she returned to the living room, she found another forgiving and oddly sympathetic note that said, a misunderstanding. Don't do it again. I know who that was.

[Ash]

Wait. I think that's actually really funny and also kind of obsessed. I'm so sorry. Like, that's the kids. And also, like, that's so sweet. The kids are like. Like, don't worry, Mom.

[Alina]

I mean, it's cool. I mean, Margaret, I know you were talking to Dad. I get it.

[Ash]

That's actually really cute.

[Alina]

I was like, that's actually really cute.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Alina]

The notes. If it is the demon, I kind of love that as well. It's like misunderstanding. I get it.

[Ash]

Happens. Strike one. There's three.

[Alina]

It's fine. The notes continued into December and were soon accompanied by what Gross and Playfair determined was Janet's psychic writing and drawing. In one image, she drew a picture of a woman with blood pouring out of her throat, and next to it was the name Watson. The pictures continued in the days after that, always of bloody scenes and referencing someone named Watson.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

One afternoon, Guy asked Margaret if the name meant anything to her, and she said, oh, yes, that was the couple who lived in the house before we moved in.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

According to Margaret, the Watsons had lived there about 12 years earlier, and Mr. Watson died in the house, though she didn't know of what.

[Ash]

Shut the fuck up.

[Alina]

Yeah. The drawings went on for a few weeks and were soon accompanied by what Playfair described as barking and whistling sounds that appeared to come from Janet. Though unusual, she insisted she wasn't doing it, like.

[Ash]

Like she wasn't in control of it.

[Alina]

Like she wasn't doing it on purpose. Instead, the men determined that it was the poltergeist trying to speak with them, using Janet as a conduit.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

The problem was that the entity refused to make any noise or attempt to communicate whenever any of the adults were in the room, only when Janet would be left out of sight but still within earshot.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

One afternoon, while Gross was trying to make contact with the entity, a strange noise came from the direction of the room where Janet and Peggy were sitting.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

Excited, Gross started asking the entity, can you tell me what your name is? There was a pause, and then the entity said, joe Watson. Thrilled by this turn of events, Gross rushed into the room and said, that was a man's voice, wasn't it? To which Peggy replied, yes. It's not ours.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

Now, Gross went back out into the hall, now joined by Playfair and the girl's mother, and they started interrogating the entity. He had lived in the house, the voice insisted, though when they asked how long ago, they got no response, only knocking. Then Guy asked whether the entity knew he was dead, and Joe replied in a gravelly tone, shut up. Confident they were on track to get rid of this, the two men started attempting to explain that Joe was a disembodied spirit, and he needed to leave the house and leave this family in peace. But Joe was very uninterested in that.

[Ash]

All right.

[Alina]

Each time they wanted to ask a question, Playfair would burst into the room and address the entity. But the response would only come when he left Janet and Peggy alone in the room. The more they tried to persuade Joe to leave the house and move on, the more abusive the voice became, telling them to fuck off and bugger off.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Alina]

In addition to a litany of other.

[Ash]

Vulgarities, we have Logan Roy on the set.

[Alina]

Yeah. So on their second communication session, Gross asked who they were speaking with, and the entity gave the name Bill. And so Gross said, bill. And he said, when we spoke to you on Saturday night, you said your name was Joe. And the voice responded with a string of nonsense followed by vulgarities. And they couldn't figure it out. Okay, but it could have been a second one.

[Ash]

You never know.

[Alina]

I'm just thinking. The communication with Joe, though, went on for several weeks, and Gross and Playfair's recordings were even played on a BBC radio broadcast for, like, millions of people. Wow. But despite the investigators holding up their recordings as further evidence of a genuine poltergeist, the communications were never really, like. They didn't have a lot of substance to them, and they didn't provide any real insight into what was happening.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

At least not in the way that, like, Gross and Playfair were thinking they did or wanted them to. In the years since they were recorded, the communications with the poltergeist have been held up as one of, if not the strongest piece of evidence that the entire thing was actually a hoax. Oh. When professional ventriloquist Ray Allen visited the house, he quickly determined that Janet wasn't exactly a conduit for the voice so much as she was the one creating the voice.

[Ash]

So now she's a ventriloquist.

[Alina]

Exactly. As evidence, Alan pointed out that the sounds Janet was making were coming from her throat rather than the larynx, where the human voice is produced, which would be the way to make the voice sound husky or raspy.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

Like an older man's voice. Yeah, yeah. Like the other professional investigators, Alan concluded that the communications were a hoax created by Janet and her sister because, quote, they obviously loved all the attention they got when objects were mysteriously moved around the house, and they decided to keep the whole thing going by inventing the voice, but it's got too big for them, and they don't know how to stop what they started. That's what he had concluded, all right. As they had done before, Gross and Playfair jumped to Janet's defense, with Playfair writing, the connection between Janet and the voice is obviously very close. There have been several occasions when she says something it obviously meant to say, and vice versa. Would she slip up like that if she was faking the whole thing right here? Again, he's really just, like, trying desperately to believe this child and not paint her as, like, a prankster, essentially. But Joe Nickel put it like, who was also on this and is cited in the show notes. He put it as evidence of ventriloquial fakery. That's hard to say. Ventriloquies was even taken as proof of authenticity. Now, the point of origin for the voice wasn't the only thing that caused skeptics to raise an eyebrow. The content of the communications was also a little suspicious. While the conversations between Gross, Playfair, and Joe Bill were typically rambling and unfocused and kind of nonsense, they were also peppered with a significant number of gratuitous obscenities and vulgar language from the entity, usually not really making sense.

[Ash]

So it was just kind of fun for a kid to swear.

[Alina]

To swear in an old man voice.

[Ash]

Yeah. I mean, it is fun to swear.

[Alina]

Where in an old man voice.

[Ash]

You feels good. That is sexy. Oh.

[Alina]

You dumb c. That does feel nice, you know.

[Ash]

Oh, that is fun. It's the best.

[Alina]

I. I forgive it. I forgive it.

[Ash]

It's understandable. Your parents just got divorced. You want to. You want to hold your guys to up.

[Alina]

Hell, yeah. Now, given the era in which this happened, it's not that surprising that just because just a few years earlier, the Exorcists had a pretty similar situation in which a young girl was possessed by an evil spirit who frequently used very aggressive and vulgar language, often sexually graphic language.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

To shock and disturb people in the film.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

But the Exorcist was written by an adult who understood how expletives function in communication. In the Enfield case, on the other hand, the vulgar language was just inserted into the conversation awkwardly.

[Ash]

I so wish we had a quote like a child, you know, I'm trying to think.

[Alina]

I know your kids.

[Ash]

Like a voice sworn correctly.

[Alina]

I think they're just.

[Ash]

I know, right?

[Alina]

Like you have to have. In the right context. Yeah. And I feel like it was just kind of. They'd be like, hey, so how long have you lived here? And they'd be like, gant. Like, I feel like it was just like it wasn't, you know, like, that feels like it was probably how it was.

[Ash]

Isn't it funny? Like, because you've been an adult so long and swearing so long, it's hard to think how to swear incorrectly.

[Alina]

Like, out of context.

[Ash]

Like, I can't figure it out.

[Alina]

It feels like the kids understood that, you know, the words are supposedly bad words and not to be used in polite conversation, but they're only able to use them in a way that they. They think would be shocking and, like, just being like. Like out of nowhere. So. Also, a lot of people noted that the poltergeist seemed unusually interested in some surprising subjects.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

Writing in 2016, psychologist Chris French wrote, quote, when Janet was supposedly possessed by the spirit of an old man, he took a lot of interest in menstruation. That's not something you'd expect an old man to be interested in, but a young girl. Well, yes. In fact, when speaking through Janet, Jo seemed unusually preoccupied with the particularities of bodily functions, much the way a pubescent child would. In fact.

[Ash]

Why do we fucking fart? Why? Why fucking do we fart, bitch? Does your fuck. Does fucking your period? That's all I'm thinking.

[Alina]

It's so nonsensical.

[Ash]

How old fucking Arya. When you start screaming, I am screaming. Oh, my God.

[Alina]

In fact, when considered as a whole, the responses given by the poltergeist don't sound like an adult at all, but like a child pretending to be an adult.

[Ash]

I think. Excuse me? I think you mean an icon pretending to be an adult.

[Alina]

In fact, here's. Here's one that's just, like, silliness. When investigators asked Joe where he had come from, the most complete answer that they were given was, I come from out of the grave in Durant Spark. And it was basically like, anytime they asked about death, they were like, graves.

[Ash]

I come from out of the grave.

[Alina]

Rising from the graves. Like, it was very cartoon.

[Ash]

I love it.

[Alina]

Yeah, A lot of, like, spiritual imagery that was, like, very immature.

[Ash]

I think, oh, my God, I'm crying.

[Alina]

Yeah. So the communication continued into the following year, but the conversations never elevated beyond, you know, crude threats, vulgarities, and a lot of strange thoughts and ideas.

[Ash]

All right.

[Alina]

But the recordings of these conversations remain some of the most frequently cited examples of the legitimacy of the cr. The claim names in this case.

[Ash]

I'm gonna find those tapes.

[Alina]

We gotta find them.

[Ash]

From the grave.

[Alina]

From the grave.

[Ash]

Oh, man. Stop it.

[Alina]

It's kind of scary. It is.

[Ash]

Okay. This is genuinely terrifying.

[Alina]

Here's the thing, though. My oldest can make that sound, actually. Facts Fact, she could.

[Ash]

She could scare the shit out of us.

[Alina]

She does it sometimes. Sometimes just to like freak us out. What like some her. She can speak from that place of like making it.

[Ash]

That's so weird.

[Alina]

Sound crazy.

[Ash]

I was picturing like this.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like it's like.

[Alina]

Like it's very like, you know, it's rounded, whatever.

[Ash]

Rounded.

[Alina]

I don't know how it feels rounded.

[Ash]

It sounds like Bluey swearing.

[Alina]

Janet, Mark and Barry Ol talking.

[Ash]

This should be an episode of Bluey. The creator of Bluey has run out of ideas and I would like to formally request an episode where they pretend to be possessed. Thank you. Thank you for hearing me out.

[Alina]

I think his name is Joe. The creator of Bluey. Joe. Joe, if you're listening and I think it's very coincidental that this entity's name is Joe. I think we are calling. I think the universe is telling you this is the next episode.

[Ash]

Not only that, but this girl's name is Janet.

[Alina]

Oh my God.

[Ash]

Janet and Rita get pissed off.

[Alina]

Janet and Rita get pizza.

[Ash]

There's your idea of the episode. Make it happen, please.

[Alina]

So after more than six months of flying objects and foul mouth ghosts, most reporters and readers had kind of lost interest in the Enfield story. And those who were covering it were doing so with like a little bit of sarcastic tone, which is like a little sad.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

By the late winter 1978, the first signs of a dramatic shift in public opinion came when an article appeared in the Daily Mirror claiming that one of the girls involved had admitted to the whole thing being a hoax. Oh, it said, how'd they make it read marbles? Well, I think there are some aspects that they can't explain, but maybe they were admitting to doing things, some things. In the Daily Mirror praised for its handling of the story by Gross and Playfair, the story of a confession was beginning to emerge. This is a quote. One of the young girls involved had admitted it was a hoax. Faithfully, the Mirror recorded that the girl had retracted her admission the following day. But this seemed to add to the confusion which tends to swamp serious attempts to investigate psychic phenomenon. That was in the Cambridge Evening News. Now, by that point, the audio and video recordings of the communication between the investigators and this entity had been shown to reporters. And what they saw strained, you know, the credibility for even those most desperate to believe in it.

[Ash]

I was desperate to believe in it.

[Alina]

I am too. And one reporter reviewed the tape, described it as. As, quote, a videotape of a cheeky young girl struggling to keep her lips closed and speak at the same time.

[Ash]

Cheeky. There you go. It's there, Joe.

[Alina]

Was there anyone present at the conference where the tapes were shown who would seriously believe that the grunts coming from the girl's body were anything other than an elaborate game? After several prominent, respectable investigators had publicly declared the case a hoax, likely, the girl's confession, although it was brief, was the last straw for the public, who had already started to suspect it was a fraud in his book, that this house is haunted. Playfair did his absolute best to defend his and Gross's belief that this girl's story was genuine. But although it was a successful supernatural story, it didn't really convince people of the authenticity of the whole thing. Yeah, even the investigator's most compelling evidence, a photograph of Janet supposedly being levitated and tossed in the air by an unseen entity. It's like a famous. This photo from this. It was criticized by several investigators for clearly showing what skeptical investigator Melvin Harris described as levitation gymnastics. Harris notes, it's worth remembering that Janet was a school sports champion. And the image clearly shows the girl in a jumping position. Her legs are bent, like, to propel herself. Yeah. Rather than, like, laying down and being levitated.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alina]

She looks like she's jumping.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alina]

And I'm not here to say she is or isn't. I'm just saying that's what it was.

[Ash]

I'm looking at it right now.

[Alina]

Hang on.

[Ash]

Yeah. Oh, she's 100% jumping.

[Alina]

She's jumping. I mean, I don't know. In the years since, the Hodgson may have stepped out of the public eye, but the story of the Enfield Poltergeist has remained, you know, a pretty fascinating source, like, you know, believers, skeptics, everyone in between. In 1992, the case was the inspiration for the controversial BBC television mockumentary Ghostwatch, in which a television news crew spends a night in a supposedly haunted house with devastating consequences.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Alina]

Several decades after that, the story was brought back again, first for an entry in the Conjuring franchise. Despite the Warrens only having, like, the most tertiary involvement in this.

[Ash]

You guys are there for, like, 3.2 seconds.

[Alina]

Then again for an ITV miniseries titled the Enfield Haunting. The legacy of this whole thing speaks a lot to the. A very compelling narrative in an unresolved case, because although people believe it's a hoax, they haven't been able to prove it either way.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

We can't prove that it's real. We can't prove that it's a hoax.

[Ash]

Right.

[Alina]

And nobody really can explain what happened here, why it would have happened here.

[Ash]

Right.

[Alina]

For hardcore skeptic Joe Nickel, the explanation is as simple as the principle of Occam's Razor. They are best explained as children's pranks.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

And basically they were children's pranks who are vigorously defended by two men who couldn't fathom the possibility that they were wrong in their assessment. And that's a quote by Nickel. Others, though, are less critical and dismissive in the judgment of the case. Deborah Hyde wrote in 2015, People frequently see what they expect to see. So she came to a much more sympathetic conclusion. She wrote, we don't have the processing bandwidth to pay attention to everything all the time and often don't notice when things have been placed or have disappeared. Personally, I would find it plausible if somebody suggested that two bright girls, feeling abandoned by their father and given the focused attention of two kind men, attention that would in all probability evaporate if the strange phenomena did, could have been motivated to manifest a poltergeist.

[Ash]

That's actually so sad.

[Alina]

Very sad.

[Ash]

That's probably one of the saddest things I've ever heard.

[Alina]

And that, like, breaks my heart.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Still, there are those who, like Playfair and Gross and the friends of the Hodgson family who all sought happiness, happen. They all remain steadfast in their belief that the entire story of the poltergeist knocking on the walls, the arguments with the spirit, the, you know, talking to Joe, the previous occupant of the residence, things moving, things throwing, like, flying through the air, they were all genuine, all of them. Now, more than four decades later, neither side is any closer to proving either that it was real or that it was a hoax than they were on the day that Maurice Gross arrived in the summer of 1977.

[Ash]

What a bummer.

[Alina]

So right now, it is what it is. That's the story and no one can prove.

[Ash]

I feel like it's. To me, there are some things that I'm like, okay, like, obviously the kids were doing that.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But there were things, like, especially. And it's interesting, there were things, especially in the beginning.

[Alina]

Yeah. That sounded like it could be something. Yeah.

[Ash]

Exactly. Inexplicable. So. So I think maybe it started off as something, and then that's how I.

[Alina]

Kind of perhaps veered off. I feel like maybe something was amiss here, but maybe it wasn't gonna get as bad as it got.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

And then the kids maybe ramped it up.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Like. Like made it. Not wanting somebody to leave, not wanting people to leave, which is really sad. And, like, you know, Surprised I never faked a poltergeist. It's an interesting story. I'm honestly surprised you never faked a poltergeist.

[Ash]

I could go back in time.

[Alina]

I would. Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. But actually, I used to pretend to be a ghost named Glenn to scare my little sister.

[Alina]

You did. Yeah, you did. You did do that. And you had Luke Skywalker.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

And the lady who didn't have a body, she was just made of bones.

[Ash]

That was weird. That was the realest thing I've ever experienced. To this day, I'm not. I'm not going to go back to that place.

[Alina]

If you could project the image of her out of your body so I could see what you see, I would pay endless amounts of money.

[Ash]

It scares me to this day. Do you know that one time my mom was, like, so fed up with it and, like. Like, could not calm me. I was literally, like, inconsolable. She called my dad, and my dad had to come over in the night to, like, try to calm me.

[Alina]

Wow.

[Ash]

Yeah. And, like, my mom and dad do not like each other. Yeah.

[Alina]

Like, that wasn't amicable.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's not an amicable divorce.

[Alina]

So that was pretty serious.

[Ash]

Yeah, like, big serious.

[Alina]

Damn.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alina]

That's crazy.

[Ash]

Yeah, it was wild. So. Yeah. Sometimes ghost things are real and unexplainable. I don't know why that lady showed up to me.

[Alina]

I don't either.

[Ash]

She also probably could have been a nightmare.

[Alina]

I don't know what she is.

[Ash]

I was dealing with a lot.

[Alina]

You were. But who knows? She was real.

[Ash]

Yeah, I think she was.

[Alina]

Damn. Well. And we don't know if the Enfield Poltergeist is, so.

[Ash]

You just never know. There's. There's weird things in life. We're gonna experience them tonight, I guess. Can't wait.

[Alina]

Hell, yeah.

[Ash]

But we can't talk to you about that for a while, so you better keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you don't continue listening to the podcast. You.

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[Alina]

How did I not know Rack has Adidas? There's always something new.

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[Alina]

Spicy.

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