The Kidnapping of Charlie Lindbergh (Part 2)

Summary

Morbid Podcast Summary: "The Kidnapping of Charlie Lindbergh (Part 2)"

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Date: March 23, 2026
Episode Theme:
A deep-dive into the aftermath, theories, investigation, and eventual resolution of the infamous 1932 Lindbergh baby kidnapping and murder. Ash and Alaina blend thorough research with their trademark dark humor and candid speculation, examining not just the crime but its cultural impact and lingering controversies.

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Episode Overview

The hosts pick up where Part 1 left off: reeling from the discovery of Charles Lindbergh Jr.’s body. They trace the American public’s grief, the police investigation, shocking violations by the media, multiple theories about what happened that night, and the eventual arrest and execution of Bruno Richard Hauptmann. They close with reflections on the impact of the case and the shadows still cast by its many unanswered questions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

National Grief and Immediate Aftermath

• The discovery of the Lindbergh baby’s remains turned the case from a kidnapping into "a national tragedy, the likes of which we have rarely seen" (Elena, 10:00).
• Religious and community leaders cited the event as evidence of societal decay (10:20).

  “The killing of little Charles Lindbergh had made multitudes pause to contemplate the meaning and nature of the collapse of the steady life and man’s place within it.” - Quoted by Alaina (10:47).

The Investigation

• Federal Involvement: Despite lacking direct jurisdiction, President Hoover ordered federal agencies to pursue the case unceasingly (11:10–12:00).
• Evidence from the Crime Scene and Autopsy:
  • Not much usable evidence at either the nursery or where the remains were found.
  • Burlap sack with hair found near the grave; believed to be for transporting the child (12:39).
  • Initial suspicion of gunshot, but autopsy determined blunt force trauma (13:05).
  • Damage to the child’s skull may have occurred during officer evidence recovery (13:37).
  • The Lindberghs did not view their child’s body due to trauma and Anne’s pregnancy (14:00).
  • Media Intrusion: Shock as reporters broke into the morgue, took, and sold photos of the child (15:00).

    "I hope that person choked on..." —Alaina (15:34) “What is wrong with you… to take pictures of a deceased murdered baby… How low do you have to be?” —Elena & Alaina (15:43–15:50)

The Working Theory & Competing Theories

• Main Theory (17:30–20:48):
  • The kidnapping was for ransom, not murder.
  • Intricate planning implied; ladder used, shoes disguised or removed.
  • The ladder broke while descending, likely causing the child’s fatal injury; kidnappers continued the ransom to try to get money.

  • “They don’t believe that they kidnapped this baby to murder him, but that it just... they just dropped the baby down a ladder on his head.” —Elena (19:09)

• Rutgers Historian Lloyd Gardner’s Theory (20:48–26:35):
  • Suggests an inside job, possibly Lindbergh himself.
  • Motive may have been eugenicist beliefs and rumored concerns about the child's health.
  • Suggests planned institutionalization, not murder, but a cover-up when the child died.

  • “This is all a horrifying theory. That’s awful. But a theory nonetheless by, like, somebody informed.” —Alaina (26:34)

• FBI Profiler John Douglas’s Theory (26:58–28:19):
  • Retrospective medical examiner review suggests blunt force may have been deliberate (a blow with a pipe or hammer).

The Suspicions Around the Household

• Focus on Violet Sharp (29:36–41:54):
  • Governess Violet changed her story about the night of the kidnapping multiple times.
  • Her demeanor: nervous, evasive, defensive.
  • Pressure and interrogations led to her suicide by silver polish ingestion.
  • Debate: Guilty knowledge, direct involvement, or stress-induced tragedy?

  • “That is the most suspicious set of events.” —Alaina (41:05)

  • "She absolutely knew something." —Alaina (41:01)

  • John Douglas suggests guilt over possibly divulging the family's plans led to her mental collapse.

  • “It sounds to me like she might have known a little bit.” —Elena (42:41)

The Ransom Trail Breakthrough

• Use of Serial-Tracked Gold Certificates: Plan to catch the kidnapper if ransom money entered circulation (28:29).
• Hundreds of leads led nowhere—until a gas station attendant wrote down a license plate from a suspicious bill (44:19–45:13).
• Bruno Richard Hauptmann: Arrested after being tracked via gold certificates and car registration.
  • Found: $14,000 of ransom money in his garage; a notebook with ladder plans; Condon’s address written in his closet; attic boards matched ladder (53:47–60:53).
  • Quote: "They found several notebooks... plans for a homemade ladder... Condon's address on the wall of the closet... wood in the attic matched the ladder..." (53:47–60:53)
• Hauptmann's Defense: Claimed the money was left by a now-dead acquaintance, Isidore Fish; claimed child’s sketches explained blueprints; denied everything (61:17).
  • The hosts deride this as implausible: “Why does a neighborhood child have your notebook? Shut up, you idiot.” —Alaina (61:52)

Trial, Execution, and Lingering Doubt

• Guilty Verdict and Execution:
  • "The prosecutor was willing to take the death penalty off if he would expose another involved. He refused and was executed by electric chair on April 3, 1936, still denying involvement." (63:45–64:30)
• Was Hauptmann alone?
  • John Douglas and others note only a third of the ransom was found, raising suspicion of further accomplices.
  • Handwriting analysis is no longer considered conclusive (65:16–65:32).
  • Dysfunction and secrecy between police and feds muddied the case.
  • Lindbergh’s own controlling, secretive behavior may have contributed to the lasting confusion (66:33).

Aftermath and Lindbergh Himself

• In later years, Lindbergh’s reputation tarnished by evidence of eugenicist and Nazi sympathies, and secret extramarital children (66:47–67:11).

  • “It’s just important to say that information came to light that, like, the American hero is not exactly what we thought he was.” —Elena (67:02)

• The hosts are frank about the real victim:

  • “It’s very sad, actually, that a lot of the times I think the baby and the murder of the baby gets lost in the story.” —Alaina (68:16)

  • “Charles Lindbergh Jr. also just becomes ‘the Lindbergh baby.’ Doesn’t even have a name.” —Elena (68:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Media’s Intrusion:
  “What is wrong with you to take pictures of a deceased murdered baby… How low do you have to be?” —Alaina (15:43–15:50)
• On Main Kidnapping Theory:
  “They don’t believe that they kidnapped this baby to murder him, but that… they just dropped the baby down a ladder on his head.” —Elena (19:09)
• On Hauptmann’s Excuses:
  “Why does a neighborhood child have your notebook? Shut up, you idiot.” —Alaina (61:52)
• Reflection:
  “It’s very sad…a lot of the times… the murder of the baby gets lost in the story.” —Alaina (68:16)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• National Grief & Chaos: 10:00–12:00
• Autopsy & Media Outrage: 13:00–16:30
• Theories on How the Kidnapping Went Down: 17:30–20:48
• Alternative Theories & Lindbergh’s Alleged Involvement: 20:48–28:19
• Focus on Violet Sharp & Her Demise: 29:36–42:53
• Break in the Case (Gold Certificates): 44:19–53:47
• Hauptmann’s Arrest & Evidence: 53:47–60:53
• Trial, Conviction, Execution: 60:53–64:30
• Was There an Accomplice? John Douglas’s Doubts: 65:07–66:33
• Lindbergh’s Darker Legacy: 66:47–67:11
• Focus on the Victim’s Humanity: 68:16–68:41

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Tone & Host Dynamics

• Lighthearted, candid, with periodic dark humor.
• Natural banter balances the case’s heaviness without minimizing tragedy.
• Encouraging critical thinking, “I get that theory,” “I do hope we know [the full truth] someday,” etc.
• Acknowledgement of the baby’s lost identity in public memory.

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a comprehensive account of the investigation and aftermath of the Lindbergh baby kidnapping. The hosts expertly thread together research, speculation, and empathy, including frank acknowledgment of the case’s gaps and its transformation into both a media circus and a true crime legend. They urge listeners to remember the victim not just as “the Lindbergh baby,” but as Charles Lindbergh Jr.—a child whose story, even amidst notoriety and infamy, should not be forgotten.

Transcript

[Alaina]

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[Elena]

The 2026 Chevy Equinox is more than an SUV. It's your Sunday tailgate and your parking lot snack bar. Your lucky jersey. Your chairs and your big cooler fit perfectly in your even bigger cargo space. And when it's go time, your 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen's got the playbook, the playlist, and the tech to stay a step ahead. It's more than an suv. It's your Equinox Chevrol. Together, let's drive.

[Alaina]

Hey, weirdos.

[Elena]

I'm Ash. And I'm Elena.

[Alaina]

And this is morbid.

[Elena]

This is morbid, y'. All.

[Alaina]

It's morbid.

[Elena]

We're back from Baikai.

[Alaina]

How are you?

[Elena]

And we're talking like this because we just finished recording the Rewatcher.

[Alaina]

I know. I do be getting in a stuck in a southern accent.

[Elena]

You're in Bon Tom. I know.

[Alaina]

I had a doctor's appointment. In between that and imagine if I, like, walked into my doctor and they're

[Elena]

like, what's your name?

[Alaina]

I'm like, oh, my name's Ashley Kaylin.

[Elena]

You're like, hey, y'. All.

[Alaina]

Hey, y'.

[Elena]

All.

[Alaina]

How y' all doing?

[Elena]

If you guys aren't watching Re watching or watching for the first time, True Blood. Oh, get on it, man.

[Alaina]

It's so good. You gotta do it, you guys. It is.

[Elena]

It's a fun time.

[Alaina]

Yeah. I love it.

[Elena]

This is a natural plug for the re watcher. I mean, h. But Andrew McMahon did our theme song.

[Alaina]

It's really good. It's so good, in fact, that all the people who do listen to Re Watcher are, like, dying to get the Full, like, the full whole song, like, on, like, Apple or Spotify or something.

[Elena]

And we're. We're trying to make that happen. Yeah. We.

[Alaina]

We said to Andrew, hey, the people want this.

[Elena]

The people want it. You got to give it. Yeah. And he said, I don't know how to do that.

[Alaina]

He said, do it. What? But, you know, we'll.

[Elena]

We'll work. Figure it out. Yeah.

[Alaina]

Technology's hard. Really quickly. I met a couple of listeners when I was at Disney, and they were so nice.

[Elena]

Aw.

[Alaina]

And I remember.

[Elena]

Wait, okay.

[Alaina]

The first person I met, you didn't say your name, but I saw you at Hollywood Studios, and you were so nice. And then I met Ashley and. In the Pirates of the Caribbean line, so. And that's what I said. I said, oh, easy to remember.

[Elena]

I'll remember that. I'll show you. She was so nice.

[Alaina]

She said she'd been listening to us since 2020.

[Elena]

Ashley for life. We took a pic and other person

[Alaina]

and other person for life. And then a few other people messaged me, and they said that they saw me and that they didn't want to say anything because.

[Elena]

Oh, that was nice of you. Yeah. I don't.

[Alaina]

I was just like, oh, my God, thanks.

[Elena]

Oh, my God. Thanks. Thanks.

[Alaina]

I always love meeting you guys in the wild.

[Elena]

I love that. Yeah, I love that for you, and I love that for them.

[Alaina]

I loved it for everybody involved.

[Elena]

I love it for me as well.

[Alaina]

And. Yeah, it's for you, too. Because they were like, oh, my God, Where's Elena?

[Elena]

And I said, not here. You know that. Obviously not here. You know that Elena is not at dis. Nasty. I am not.

[Alaina]

And then everybody also was like, did you get on a roller coaster after that episode? I did.

[Elena]

Interesting.

[Alaina]

But it's Disney. It feels different. Yeah. We.

[Elena]

Are we going to be doing an episode that will touch upon that.

[Alaina]

Yeah. I'm going to kill you.

[Elena]

We are.

[Alaina]

No, we aren't. You are. Everybody was like, did you really do that? And I said, yeah, I feel like they're well maintained.

[Elena]

Yeah. You know, feelings are good.

[Alaina]

I'm gonna kill you. I'm gonna kill you right here, right now.

[Elena]

Oh, listen. I know nothing about Disney's ride safety. I assume they do a good job.

[Alaina]

All I know is that the cosmic rewind is fucking smooth as butter. And I. You would actually appreciate this maybe a little bit. You can get, like. I think there's, like, six options for songs on the Cosmic Rewind, and I think it's just cosmic rewind, not the. But everybody, like, you want A specific song. And last time me and Drew did it, we just kept getting conga. And I fucking hate that song. Like, boo. This time we got Everybody Wants to Rule the World. And I almost cried.

[Elena]

Oh, my God, that's a great one.

[Alaina]

It was the best Ride Experience ever.

[Elena]

That's. You know what's funny? The other night, how did it come up? We were talking about. I think one of the girls was singing a Tears for Fears song because I played them a lot.

[Alaina]

Bad bitches.

[Elena]

Bad bitches in the songs. And John was like. I think they said. He was like, what song are you singing? And I was like, tears for Fears. Obviously, I was like, the best. Like, I said something very hyperbolic about Tears for Fears.

[Alaina]

Maybe not, though. It was probably based in five.

[Elena]

Well, he was like, I don't know. I don't know if they're, like, the best. And I was like, they have banger after banger. And then I just started playing banger after banger and it was like, bedtime for the girls. I'm like, boom, boom, boom. They are Tears for Fears.

[Alaina]

Yes.

[Elena]

If you're listening, you obviously are.

[Alaina]

Imagine if Tears for Fears was Listening for fears. If we get an email in a couple of weeks and it's tears for fears gmail.com, i'll shit a brick.

[Elena]

I'll.

[Alaina]

I'll jump out a window happily.

[Elena]

Tears for Fears at Gmail.

[Alaina]

I was waiting for that to penetrate.

[Elena]

It's later in the day that I. I am manifesting that.

[Alaina]

Yeah, me too.

[Elena]

That Tears for Fearsome is going to contact us. Because I think Tears for Fears has some real fucking certified bangers. Yeah, they do.

[Alaina]

Listened to Tears for Fears all the way on my last road trip.

[Elena]

That I did. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah.

[Alaina]

Hell yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah. Head over heels. Come on.

[Alaina]

You know, it was that.

[Elena]

If you think of 1, 2, 3. Donnie Darko. Oh, I was. I. I didn't know what you said. And then I didn't know how to ask, what did you say? So

[Alaina]

she, like, leaned her head back and was like.

[Elena]

I was like, I don't know how to speak. It's stressing me out.

[Alaina]

I do this thing where I like to say things at the same time as Elena. Like, I'm like, come on, say it at the same time as me. And then I go, 1, 2, 3.

[Elena]

And she hates it. I do. I get very stressed out.

[Alaina]

I think it's really funny.

[Elena]

I'm always like.

[Alaina]

I'm like, wait, do you want to deliver this news to this person at the same time? 1.

[Elena]

Did she's like, no, no, I'll say it after. It's fine, then.

[Alaina]

I've already delivered it.

[Elena]

Oh, you know what we can do at the same time?

[Alaina]

Perform at Radio City Music Hall.

[Elena]

We can do that at the same time.

[Alaina]

Let's go.

[Elena]

Have you guys got your tickets yet?

[Alaina]

Get your tickets. Get them at Ticketmaster, because that's the only place where we approved the prices. Yeah.

[Elena]

Either if it's outside of there and you're looking at the price and being like, what the. Ladies.

[Alaina]

We didn't.

[Elena]

We look at you and we say, yeah, what the. That's not us. Yeah. So that's the only place that we approved any prices. And grab your tickets. It's gonna be fun. It's.

[Alaina]

It's June 27th at Radio City Music Hall. It occurred to me today that I don't know the time.

[Elena]

Yeah, I mean, it'll be at night. I assume it's p.m. yeah, it's a p.m. moment.

[Alaina]

It's Radio City Music Hall, June 27th

[Elena]

p.m. come to New York. Come hang out. I'm excited. It's gonna be fun.

[Alaina]

We might do a kick live.

[Elena]

So grab them while they're. While they're there.

[Alaina]

Get them while they're hot.

[Elena]

It's one night only.

[Alaina]

Yeah, we're not one night only. I promise you we're not adding another show to this date.

[Elena]

That's this particular date and location. Again. Promise. Another date. So. So grab them. Yeah, grab them.

[Alaina]

Why did I just think of the Carole Baskin song when you said I did too? Okay.

[Elena]

I did too.

[Alaina]

Carol Baskins killed her husband. Whacked it. Can't convince me that it didn't happen.

[Elena]

That's a song.

[Alaina]

Carol Baskin. Allegedly.

[Elena]

Just saying. Allegedly.

[Alaina]

I think Carol's a queen.

[Elena]

You know what? Lord to drop.

[Alaina]

I think she's a flower crown queen.

[Elena]

I have absolutely no opinion.

[Alaina]

No, I really. I don't remember a lot of that documentary or a lot of 2020 as a whole. So.

[Elena]

No, I think most of us are. I think. I think maybe we did all just die and we're.

[Alaina]

No, I'm. As soon as I said the first person say that, I said, yep.

[Elena]

I think it might be valid theory, but, like, we're here.

[Alaina]

You know what I said to Elena the other day, and I'm just having a conversation with you guys now. I guess whenever I fly, that's when I really think that life is a simulation.

[Elena]

Yeah. Flying is crazy.

[Alaina]

Like what we see. They don't want me to say it.

[Elena]

They don't.

[Alaina]

They don't Want me to get this out?

[Elena]

They. They.

[Alaina]

The simulation people.

[Elena]

I.

[Alaina]

When we flew home from Florida the other day, I'm laying in bed that night and I'm like. I was projected through the air in a tube home today. Yeah. What?

[Elena]

That's why pilots are fascinating to me.

[Alaina]

Yeah. Yeah, they are fascinating. And that works for this story.

[Elena]

It really does work for this story. You actually segued right into the story.

[Alaina]

But maybe. Maybe pilots aren't even real.

[Elena]

I mean, I believe in pilots, but

[Alaina]

maybe we're not even real.

[Elena]

This is stressing me out.

[Alaina]

Do you want to have existential dread?

[Elena]

I really don't. So we're gonna do part two. Is that stressing me out?

[Alaina]

No. I'm actually excited to hear some of these theories.

[Elena]

It gets crazy.

[Alaina]

Does it?

[Elena]

This is part two of the Lindbergh baby kidnapping. We ended on a really sad note the first time with finding baby. Baby Lindbergh. Yeah. Murdered in the woods and a baby. A literal baby.

[Alaina]

I know.

[Elena]

Like, who the. So if the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby was a shock to the American public, then the announcement of the boy's death was interpreted as nothing less than a national tragedy, the likes of which we have rarely seen. I mean, him being kidnapped was one thing. The finding him murdered blew everything up.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And following the reports of the death, religious and community leaders across the country just could not stop talking about the murder as a failure of cavalation and a sign of America's decaying moral fabric.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Immediately latched on, Rabbi Lewis Newman said the killing of little Charles Lindbergh had made multitudes pause to contemplate the meaning and nature of the collapse of the steady life and man's place within it.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Elena]

Which, like. I feel like this was kind of like a weird turning point because it's like. Who would have thought that could happen?

[Alaina]

Yeah. It's like. It's like the glass shatter.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like it's so dark. Right. It's so dark. This is a baby stolen out of its crib and discovered in the woods and murdered and left to rot in the woods like that. You don't come back from that.

[Alaina]

Definitely not.

[Elena]

While the American public was grappling with the implications of the murder, investigators in New Jersey and Washington, D.C. were going hard, working overtime to find his killer. Although the federal government had no direct authority in the case, President Hoover directed all federal law enforcement agencies, including the Secret Service, to, quote, set out upon a hunt for the murderers of the Lindbergh baby and never to be relaxed until those criminals. Criminals are Implicably brought to justice.

[Alaina]

Hell yeah.

[Elena]

That's a big deal for the. The President, President Hoover to be like, you will not rest until we find this person.

[Alaina]

Hell yeah.

[Elena]

Hell, yeah, Hoover.

[Alaina]

I'm never gonna stop saying that.

[Elena]

Just everybody knows. In his statement from the White House, Hoover told reporters, I've directed the law enforcement agencies and the Secret Service of the federal government to make the kidnapping murder of the Lindbergh baby a live and never to be forgotten case. The government's agencies will be unceasingly every possible way until this end has been accomplished. Yeah, and he was kind of right.

[Alaina]

Agreed.

[Elena]

He held on to it. At the scene where the remains were discovered, officers combed the woods looking for just any scrap of evidence they could to point them in the direction of the killer. But like the scene of the kidnapping in the nursery, there was really not a lot to be found out there. Near the grave site, officers found a burlap sack with some of the child's blonde hair found inside. They quickly theorized that the boy had been transported to the site in the bag, though they were unable to determine whether he had been alive at the time.

[Alaina]

What kind of monster can just put a baby into a bag?

[Elena]

I can't even sit with that with, like, his little blonde hair. No, that's beyond. Now, the autopsy was completed by Dr. Swayze immediately after the remains were removed from the site in the woods. And upon initial observation, Swayze could see a small hole in the skull and suspected the boy could have been shot.

[Alaina]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

But he could see no exit wound and was unable to find a bullet in his more thorough examination. So instead, Swayze determined that the boy had died from, quote, a fractured skull due to external violence. Oh, geez. Most likely having occurred very shortly after he was taken from the nursery.

[Alaina]

So this was not.

[Elena]

It was all. Yeah. In the days after that, the police reports from the day the remains were discovered would reveal that the hole in the skull had been caused by one of the officers attempting to uncover the remains with a stick.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Elena]

Although this might seem like a wild scenario, Swayze's autopsy revealed that due to the length of exposure, the skeletal remains had become very soft. He was also a baby and his skull was already soft.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Exactly. At the time of the discovery. Ann Lindbergh was several months pregnant, by the way. Oh. And it was believed that seeing her baby's body would be too stressful and traumatic. So following the autopsy, the body was immediately sealed in a coffin and transported to the mortuary for burial without either parent ever Seeing the remains, that's probably for the better. It's. I think it's a total, like, case by case. Yeah. Personal choice that I don't even want to fathom. So I won't. I'm not even putting it in my brain what I would do because I don't even want to put my headspace there. Yeah. But if that was what was best for them that I'm. Then that is what is best for them. And that's what they should.

[Alaina]

And I hope that's what was best for them.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, I hope that was their choice, and I hope they were happy with that choice, because that is an unthinkable situation to be put in.

[Alaina]

Can you imagine being under that amount of stress while pregnant?

[Elena]

No.

[Alaina]

Like your firstborn child is missing. All these ransom. I didn't realize that during that she was pregnant.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

That is beyond.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now, the only member of the household to view the body was the governess, Betty Gao. And that was only for the purpose of identification. Unfortunately, before the casket could be placed in the ground and the baby laid to rest, a reporter and photographer broke into the morgue overnight, pried open the casket and snapped several pictures. What the. Which were sold to papers all over the world the following day. And I hope that person choked on.

[Alaina]

I do too. What the is wrong with you that you're one breaking into a morgue and with dead bodies, like to a morgue

[Elena]

at all go yourself.

[Alaina]

But then to take pictures of a

[Elena]

deceased murdered baby, open a baby's casket.

[Alaina]

How low do you have to be?

[Elena]

I would curse their bloodline if I was those parents. I would curse that person.

[Alaina]

I don't even think you would have to. Because I think karma is. I think the real and I think the universe really will people over like that.

[Elena]

What an absolute garbage person.

[Alaina]

Yeah. I truly hope the rest of their life sucked. I don't wish that on really anybody, but on that person in particular. I hope the rest of their life is.

[Elena]

Sucks like just that entire thing. They go through all this trouble to make sure that the parents aren't seeing this baby because by the sounds of it, they didn't want to.

[Alaina]

Right.

[Elena]

And then this person goes out of their way and commits crimes to make sure they have to. For money. For money.

[Alaina]

Which, like, all the money in the world wouldn't be worth that.

[Elena]

What an evil. Yeah. That's.

[Alaina]

That. There's not even words for that.

[Elena]

Wow. So while the family grieved the loss of their baby, the state police began putting together the few clues that they did have. Just trying to make sense of this whole thing. Based on the coroner's report, they knew the boy had died almost immediately after being taken from the house. It was very soon. But Swayze was unable to say whether the blunt force trauma was accidental or intentional. Fortunately, the evidence collected from the house on the night of the kidnapping was useful in providing insight into that question. Okay, this is just so sad. If this theory. Although kidnap for ransom, had become a lot less common by this point than it had been in previous decades, detectives surmised that whoever had kidnapped the boy had done so for financial gain rather than murder. Okay. The obvious level of planning that went into this scheme suggested that this wasn't, like, impulsive. Investigators theorized that the kidnapper, or more likely kidnappers, parked a short distance away, walked through the woods to Lindbergh's house, which. What the fuck? Carrying the ladder, they either wore stockings over their shoes or removed them entirely just to obscure the footprints. Yep. When they reach the house, they place the ladder underneath the nursery window, which was evident from the scuff marks found outside of the house, just below the window. And the detectives leading the case believed one of the kidnappers climbed through the window and gently removed the baby from the crib. And honestly, they would have had to have been very gentle and very, like, calm and quiet and collected, because they would. They left the blanket still safety pinned to the mattress, remember? Yeah. And they made it in and out without waking the baby as well.

[Alaina]

That's great.

[Elena]

So they had to have been, like, really quiet and gentle about also to

[Alaina]

make it all the way down a ladder holding a baby.

[Elena]

Well, as to the cause of death, investigators believe the evidence found at the scene likely explained that as well.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Elena]

When Lindbergh and Wheatley searched the area outside the house immediately after calling the police, they found the homemade ladder on the ground with one rung having broken and come off entirely. Right. Based on Swayze's findings during the autopsy, they believe the kidnapper had been carrying the baby down the ladder when the rung broke, causing him to drop the baby. Oh. Who landed on his head, causing the injury that led to his death. Oh, wow. So they don't believe that they kidnapped this baby to murder him, but that it just. They just dropped the baby down a ladder on his head.

[Alaina]

And that's widely believed.

[Elena]

That's widely believed. Wow. At the time, the kidnappers were likely unaware of the extent of the boy's injury, because I'm sure the boy didn't cry because he probably fractured his skull. And died pretty quickly.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So they put him in the burlap bag and quietly made their way through the woods in the direction of their car. By the time they reached the spot in the woods where the remains were found, they likely discovered that the child had died.

[Alaina]

Right.

[Elena]

So they left his body in the woods where it was found a month later by the truck driver passing through.

[Alaina]

So they think it had been in the. That the baby had been in the.

[Elena]

The entire time.

[Alaina]

That whole time.

[Elena]

Wow. Because the. The baby's sleeping suit had been sent to Dr. Condon as proof, it seems likely that one or more of the kidnappers returned to the scene later to

[Alaina]

retrieve the suit to still hopefully get the money.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like to make it seem like the baby's alive. Right. Which also. How much even more fucked up is that? That they were telling them this baby is alive and healthy and we're feeding them a good diet when the boy was rotting in the woods. Now, if the investigators theory was correct and Charlie's death was an accident, that meant the entire protracted ransom negotiation, like we just said, was just a ruse. This is the predominant theory as to how the kidnapping and death unfolded. And it's pretty accepted by historians. I think everybody believes this makes sense. Okay. But there are those familiar with the case who disagree, agree this narrative. Rutgers University historian Lloyd Gardner, for example, believes the kidnapping couldn't have occurred without some help from someone inside the Lindbergh household.

[Alaina]

Which, like, I get that theory.

[Elena]

I get what does make.

[Alaina]

I'm not saying that's what happened, but I. I understand the thought process there.

[Elena]

He believes that person was Charles Lindberg himself. Oh. Among other things. Gardner points out that until that night, the Lindberghs hadn't been staying at the house during the week. Yeah. So anyone who'd been casing the home would have known not to plan the kidnapping on a weeknight. Which is something we mentioned in part one. That was weird. Yeah. Like we were like, wow, they really just locked dead into that.

[Alaina]

It's interesting though, that he thinks it's Charles Lindberg, because it could be anybody in that house with just up to that point. It's tax time.

[Elena]

But for a lot of us, the

[Alaina]

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[Elena]

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[Elena]

Well, Gardner also notes Lindbergh's extremely controlling and secretive behavior in the week of wake of the kidnapping, including trying to minimize police involvement and attempting to bypass them entirely in the ransom negotiation process. As for why this baby's own father would want him to be dead, Gardner believes Lindbergh's enthusiasm for the eugenics movement could be to blame. Okay. There were rumors that at the time of his death, Charles Lindbergh Jr. Had several mild health problems that could have become chronic as he aged. Okay. Gardner believes that Lindbergh's well documented support for eugenics and for the Nazi party. You caused him to fear his son would not grow up to be a superior American man.

[Alaina]

So he killed he like he would have killed him.

[Elena]

But he stopped short of accusing Lindbergh of murder. Oh. Instead of accusing him of murder, Gardner suggests Lindbergh had orchestrated the kidnapping with the attention of having the child placed in an institution. But after his accidental death, he participated in this elaborate cover up up using his power and influence to keep law enforcement as far from the truth as possible.

[Alaina]

Yikes.

[Elena]

And again, this is a theory.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

This is all a horrifying theory.

[Alaina]

That's awful.

[Elena]

But a theory nonetheless by like somebody informed person. Now Gardner lays out his theory of Lindbergh's scheme in his 2004 book, the Case that Never Dies. Yeah. And we link it in the show notes. So true. What a great title. Yeah, truly. But he's far from the only one who has questioned the official theory of the Lindbergh kidnapping.

[Alaina]

I did know that. And I did, unfortunately, know that. A lot of people looked at Charles

[Elena]

himself in the late 2000s. Famed FBI profile. You might know him. John Douglas.

[Alaina]

Oh, I think I've heard of him.

[Elena]

You think you heard of that guy? I think so. He undertook his own investigation of the case, relying on the existing evidence that's held at the New Jersey State Police Museum in West Trenton, New Jersey. He consulted with former North Carolina Chief Medical Examiner John Butts. Who? It's his last name. Guys, get your giggles out now. I'm sure he's heard it all.

[Alaina]

Poor John.

[Elena]

Poor John, who reviewed the autopsy evidence and ultimately disagreed with Swayze's findings that the cause of death was likely accidental blunt force trauma. Oh. He cited the additional injuries located on the right side of the skull. Okay. Now, John believes the kidnappers likely hit the boy on the side of the head while he was on the ground, causing his head to strike something hard on the opposite side.

[Alaina]

Oh, I hate this so much.

[Elena]

He said if he were lying on his left side, head down on a hard surface, and he was at the. Struck with a forceful blow on the right side of his head by a hammer or pipe. Oh, that would compress the head, and it might do so with sufficient force that it might do so on the right side as well. He also reviewed what remained of the child's medical records and stated that, contrary to popular belief, the chart contains no information about chronic illness or health problems.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Elena]

Interesting. Yeah. Regardless of how or why it happened, the fact remained that Charles Lindbergh Jr. Had been killed and someone clearly needed to be held accountable.

[Alaina]

Right.

[Elena]

The problem was there was very little evidence anywhere at the scene of the kidnapping or the gravesite and nothing to point investigators in any direction of a suspect. In a clever display of foresight, though, detectives instructed Lindbergh to assemble the ransom payment from older bills and gold certificates. Okay. The latter of those were expected to go out of circulation in a year or two.

[Alaina]

Oh, smart.

[Elena]

Really smart. Once the nation moved away from, like, the gold standard. Yeah. They also had the bank record, the serial number of every bill and certificate Condon handed over to Cemetery John. Of course, for any of that to be in use of finding a suspect, the kidnapper would have to use one or more of the bills in a transaction. Which you would think they would if

[Alaina]

they were asking for it in the first place.

[Elena]

Well, and also that transaction would also have to be suspicious enough for the vendor to report it it to police. Yeah, that, that's. So he's just buying like a candy bar. That's to say, the likelihood of finding their suspect through the ransom money alone was pretty slim. If or until that happened, investigators turned their attention back to the Lindbergh house, particularly the members of the staff who could have been involved in the kidnapping.

[Alaina]

Yeah, I. I think that was one

[Elena]

of the first things I asked. Now, most of the staff at the Lindbergh house could account for themselves at the time of the kidnapping, but there was one young woman who lead investigator Colonel Schwarzkopf felt had not been entirely truthful when she was first interviewed after the kidnapping. Okay. Violet Sharp had immigrated to the United States from England and worked for Anne's parents for two years when Charlie was kidnapped. Given how long she'd been with the family and how well she was liked by the rest of the staff, investigators assumed her interview would be very routine. But they were quickly proven wrong. From the moment they sat down with her, she was very combative, very uncooperative, and it seemed to detectives that she was very nervous. Oh. Which obviously this could be because being interrogated for a child's murder in a house you work would be pretty nerve wracking. Nerve wracking, but still a little suspicious.

[Alaina]

So weird.

[Elena]

Although she did eventually relax a little and answer the questions, she did so with the understanding that she resented their questions about her personal life and she was eager to get this interview out of the way. Okay. Now, according to Violet, she and her sister Emily had been in Town on February 28th and met a man while walking down Lydecker Street. The man had waved to the women from his car and mistaking him for someone she knew, Violet went over to the car. Although she didn't know the man, Violet said he seemed like a nice person. So she and Emily accepted a ride from him and even agreed to go on a date with the man. Promised to call the next day. Day. The next morning, around 11, Betty Gao told Violet she had been summoned to the Lindbergh house because Anne wasn't feeling well and she would be staying there for the night. Later that night, the man called around 8pm and invited Violet to the movies that evening. When he arrived, there was another. There was another couple in the car and the four of them went to the movie and he dropped her off at the Moreau house a little after 11pm Violet claimed she agreed to a second date with the man, but canceled the next day. Okay. At first, this story seemed like an ordinary recollection of, you know, just a random young woman's night out.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Investigators were like, okay, cool, straightforward. But they became somewhat more suspicious when Violet couldn't remember the names of anyone in her company that night, including her date or the name of the movie they saw or the theater in which they saw it.

[Alaina]

That's suspicious.

[Elena]

A little weird. Just about the only detail Violet did seem to remember was the theater was in Inglewood. Considering that Violet's first interview took place 10 days after the kidnapping, it seemed to investigators that she should have probably been able to remember at least some of the details of her night out. Yeah, like the movie, the names of the people.

[Alaina]

I'm like, were you roofied, like, and that maybe that's why you don't want

[Elena]

to talk about any of this. Maybe. But when they pressed her for more details, she only grew more uncooperative, and eventually, they ended the conversation. Now, a month later, on April 13, Schwarzkopf sent Inspector Harry Walsh to interview Violet a second time, convinced that there was something she wasn't telling. Just as before, the interview started off with innocuous questions about her work history or upbringing. But as soon as she be, Walsh began asking her about where she was the night of the kidnapping. Violet had an entirely new story about that night, where, before she claimed, she was out on a double date with a man whose name she couldn't remember. Now, Violet claimed her date's name was Ernie, and they hadn't gone to the movies, but to a roadhouse called the Peanut Grill. Okay. When Walsh asked why a respectable woman would go to a roadhouse with a man she barely knew, Violet became very angry and resentful.

[Alaina]

She said, because they have really good roles there.

[Elena]

Said, I do what I want. Despite the shift in tone, though, she continued to provide the detective with details. Okay. Violet said they went to the roadhouse around 8pm with another couple, stayed there drinking and dancing until about 10:30pm after that, her date drove her home, and she arrived back at the house around

[Alaina]

11pm Was it, like, not respectable to go to, like, a restaurant with a man?

[Elena]

I think this is like a roadhouse. I think was like a bar, pretty much. Oh, okay. See, you know, like, it was less. It was not for good. Upstanding young ladies, not swanky. Now, later that day, Walsh reported back to Schwarzkopf and relayed Violet's new story. But neither man was very convinced of this. For one thing, it was well known among the staff at the. At the house that Violet was in, The Moreau house was the parents house.

[Alaina]

Yes.

[Elena]

Yep. It was well known by the staff that Violet was dating the morose butler, Septimus Banks. Which also take a minute with that name.

[Alaina]

Septimus Banks.

[Elena]

Septimus Banks.

[Alaina]

You kind of have to date him.

[Elena]

You do. You absolutely do.

[Alaina]

And he's a butler.

[Elena]

Banks, at your service.

[Alaina]

He sounds hot.

[Elena]

He does.

[Alaina]

I'm not going to lie about Septimus Banks. Septimus Banks. What a I date him damn well may again. Maybe that's why she was feeling like she didn't want to talk about it.

[Elena]

Maybe when she was cheap. Yeah, so she was. It was well known she was dating Septimus Banks. And there was a rumor that Banks was considering proposing marriage.

[Alaina]

Well.

[Elena]

Fuck. Also, as far as anyone in the house knew, Violet hadn't dated anyone other than Banks in the two years she'd been in the United States. So because of those details, it seemed highly unusual that Violet would have accepted a date from a stranger, much less a date to a roadhouse. Again with the fucking roadhouse. Not a roadhouse. It also struck Schwarzkopf that Violet's story seemed to align almost perfectly with the window of time in which the baby was taken from the house, with her leaving not long after Betty Gal last checked on him and arriving home after his disappearance had been discovered. Yeah. Of course, none of this was evidence of Violet's involvement in the kidnapping. But it was weird. It didn't clear her.

[Alaina]

And changing your story so it's not good. Like changing your story a little bit, even during these things, is a little suspicious. But having an entirely new story is wild.

[Elena]

Yeah. Not great. Now, despite the inconsistencies in Violet's two stories about that night and the fact that she seemed unusually anxious during her interviews with police, Elizabeth Morrow vouched for her maid and assured them that she had complete faith in her. Okay. Although Schwarzkopf had no interest in undermining the Morrows once the remains were found in the woods, his suspicion turned right back to Violet Sharpe, and he insisted on interviewing her for a third time. Wow. Unfortunately, the day before the body was found, Violet had been hospitalized with a tonsil infection and she spent weeks claiming she was too ill to talk in an interview. Convenient. Finally, when she could no longer avoid the interview, Violet agreed to meet with the detectives again on May 23rd. Violet Sharpe's third interview with Walsh was more or less like the other interviews with her. Going over her story again, but this time there was a noticeable discrepancy Another one. In both her first and second interviews, Violet claimed that Betty Gao had told her the Lindberghs would be staying at the new house and she had been called there to help Anne. She further stated that Ernie, the man with whom she had a date, had called her later that evening around 8pm okay. Now, though Violet told Walsh she received a call From Ernie around 1pm on the day of the kidnapping. According to Richard Cahill, the obvious implication of the new statement was that she told Ernie about the Lindbergh's plans. Oh, that. Like they were gonna stay at the house. Yeah. That said. Cahill also notes that aside from Walsh pointing out the discrepancy between the times of the call, the difference didn't seem to make much of an impression on the other investigators. Instead, Walsh focused on Violet's previous lie about going to the movies and asked several questions that implied she had behaved immorally. Cahill suggests Walsh was attempting to get her to upset her so she would let something slip of significance. Right. But Violet stuck to the story. In the days after her third interview, Violet grew noticeably depressed. In a June 7 letter to a family in England, she wrote, I want to come home so much, but I cannot leave the country or they would think I knew something about the baby. Gee, life is getting so sad. I really don't think there is much to live for anymore. Wow. Now, although there's no way to know whether Violet was simply being, you know, feeling depressed in, like, about anything.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

It does look like she was under considerable stress at the time. And her emotional state was very fragile.

[Alaina]

I mean.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

I can't imagine working in a house where a baby was kidnapped and people murdered it and. And now you're being looked at. Exactly.

[Elena]

Now, two days after Violet sent the letter home, Inspector Walsh was back at the Moreau house, this time in the company of a secretary, Laura Hughes, who had come to take her formal statement. Oh. It. On this occasion, Walsh went. Went at Violet way harder than he had before, likely hoping she would slip up. At one point, he showed Violet a picture of a local petty criminal. I knew you were thinking I was, like, what, named Ernest Brinkhart. And asked whether he was the man she had gone on a date with. And she said it was okay. Violet claimed she had never given his name to the police because she only knew him by his first name. Walsh was now yelling at her and insisted Violet was lying because they had discovered Brink Art's business cards in her bedroom. Oh. The revelation stunned Violet, and she started to cry.

[Alaina]

Babe, you gotta stop lying. To the police.

[Elena]

But Walsh persisted in his aggressive questioning and only stopped when the secretary insisted that he had gone too far, and she went to get the family doctor.

[Alaina]

Oh, you wonder what he said.

[Elena]

Upon examination, the doctor insisted Violet could not answer any more questions that afternoon. She was in hysterical tears. Her heart, her pulse was racing, her blood pressure was dangerously high. And the doctor escorted Violet out of the room and up the stairs to her bedroom. But before she disappeared, Violet turned back to Laura Hughes and gave her a smile and a wink.

[Alaina]

I will fight her.

[Elena]

And Hughes would not report that gesture for several weeks. Why?

[Alaina]

I'd be like that winked at me.

[Elena]

That winked it. That's what I did. Now, in the months since the kidnapping, it was clear to everyone in the house that the repeated interrogations had taken a considerable toll on violence.

[Alaina]

Maybe not.

[Elena]

Ew.

[Alaina]

Can I actually just tell you how

[Elena]

freaked out I am by that? That just gave me the chills, no matter what. That is terrifying.

[Alaina]

All I can picture is, like, a crazy at the top of the stairs. Just like just that little thing.

[Elena]

Stop winking at me. I'm winking at her. I know. The night after her third interrogation, she told Betty Gao, they'll never take me from this house again. They'll never question me again.

[Alaina]

They should.

[Elena]

Unfortunately for Violet, the next day, Inspector Walsh intended to do exactly that.

[Alaina]

Yeah, girl, who do you think you are?

[Elena]

Early on the morning of June 10, Walsh called the Moreau house and told Elizabeth's secretary that he was sending an officer to the house to bring Violet to the station so they could finish the interview.

[Alaina]

It's Gemini season. We're communicating.

[Elena]

Yeah. Walsh explained that the interview could be conducted in his office and a doctor would be present to monitor her condition. When Violet heard the news, she became irrationally upset and screamed at Septimus Banks. Banks, Walsh wants to question me again, but I won't go.

[Alaina]

I won't.

[Elena]

I won't. Banks tried to calm her, but she grabbed a small measuring glass and ran upstairs, where she retrieved a bottle of silver polish from the closet and quickly consumed all of its contents. When the liquid was gone, she walked calmly back downstairs and into the pantry. And she appeared as though she was about to say something to one of the staff members, but then gasped slightly and collapsed on the floor. Moments later, Violet was dead.

[Alaina]

That bitch is the most suspicious woman I've heard of in my time alive.

[Elena]

That is the most suspicious set of events.

[Alaina]

She absolutely knew something.

[Elena]

Allegedly, as Schwarzkopf and Walsh were concerned, Violet's suicide was yet more evidence of her guilt Absolutely.

[Alaina]

It was that which was shady.

[Elena]

Schwarzkopf told reporters the suicide of the girl strongly tends to confirm the suspicion of investigating authorities concerning her guilty knowledge of the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby.

[Alaina]

Right.

[Elena]

Regardless of their opinions or how it appeared in the press and to the public, there was never any evidence that connected Violet to the kidnapping. In fact, in the weeks that followed, after they reviewed the letters she'd written to her family, investigators concluded that Violet was unstable and the stress of the investigation had pushed her to end her life. Former profile John Douglas acknowledges the incredible stress that Violet was under at the time. But he believes there may be more to Violet's death than emotional strain.

[Alaina]

Yeah, because why did you lie right off the bat? Yeah, I understand, like, being stressed, but I don't understand lying to the police immediately.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

About a baby's murder.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

Like, you gotta be truthful from the jump, no matter if, like, how ugly that truth is.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

That's weird. Yeah.

[Elena]

He. So given the timeline between Betty Gao announcing that she was going to the Lindbergh house and Violet Violet's calls from Ernie Brinkhart, Douglas suspects Violet may have inadvertently revealed the critical information that the Lindberghs would be in Hopewell on the night of the kidnapping. If that were true, or even if she just believed it were true, Violet may have felt as though she was indirectly responsible for the boy's kidnapping and murder, and the weight of the guilt led her to end her life.

[Alaina]

But why be a big old creep and wink at people from the top of the stairs?

[Elena]

It sounds to me like she might have known a little bit. It.

[Alaina]

I think she had. I don't know, something.

[Elena]

No evidence to connect her to. Just. She was real. Real shady.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

During this whole thing. Shady. And it's a tragedy that she ran upstairs and, you know, killed herself with silver polish. That's awful. Especially if she's innocent. And it was just the stress.

[Alaina]

Poor Septimus.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now, with their best suspect at the time now dead, Schwarzkopf's investigation was set back significantly and started to go cold.

[Alaina]

So did they go after Ernie? Hello.

[Elena]

Well, at the same time, Charles and Anne were. Had been receiving anonymous letters in the mail threatening to kidnap their newborn child. Oh, those.

[Alaina]

That's awful.

[Elena]

Rather than risk a second kidnapping, the couples fled to Europe because. Just get the out of here. Yeah. Leaving the investigation to the police, two years would pass before investigators finally made progress. And when the case finally broke, it wasn't the result of, like, dogged police work, but a simple transaction at a gas station in New York.

[Alaina]

Tell me everything.

[Elena]

So within days of the ransom being paid by Cemetery John, the money in gold certificates started to appear in various deposits around New York. Unfortunately, every time investigators followed the lead, it went nowhere. And by the summer of 1934, the money appeared to have fallen out of circulation entirely. Then in September, the certificates appeared again, this time at a New York grocery store. But when they were still, when they were interviewed, none of the clerks could remember the man who'd used the bills.

[Alaina]

I mean, why would you?

[Elena]

But still, it meant the kidnapper was still in the area.

[Alaina]

That's horrifying.

[Elena]

On September 18, 1934, investigators in New Jersey got a call from the FBI to inform them that another gold certificate had been found in a deposit at the Corn Exchange bank bank in the Bronx. Once again, when detectives questioned the bank tellers, no one could tell who it was. And they kind of were feeling like they were on a wild goose chase at this point. This time though, there was something different about the ten dollar gold certificate. In the deposit on the bill, someone had written 4U 1341 along the edge. Thinking the number might be a license plate, the investigators asked whether any of the customers owned a gas station. They were directed to the Warner Quinlan station on the outer edge of Manhattan.

[Alaina]

Picture this. Somebody's breaking in, but you're giving a huge presentation at work, you're at the movies, you're on a flight, you're away. You get a notification on your phone and you'll see the footage in a couple hours. But by then it's already too late. State the good news is Simply Safe's active Guard outdoor protection can help prevent break ins before they even happen. It's a customizable whole home security backed by 24, seven monitoring agents that you can rely on to act even when you can't. And while other security companies lock you in, Simplisafe comes with a no long term contract. They earn your trust every day by keeping you safe and satisfied. I'm a user of Simplisafe and I have been for years. I love it.

[Elena]

It.

[Alaina]

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[Elena]

The manager of Warner Quinlan, Walter Lyle, remembered the bill as soon as he saw it. A few days earlier, a man driving a blue 1930 Dodge had pulled into the station and bought $5 worth of gas. Gas which, like, whoa.

[Alaina]

Meanwhile, it is $5 a gallon.

[Elena]

Yeah. Lyle remembered the transaction because as he told the man in the Dodge, he did not see many gold certificates anymore.

[Alaina]

Right.

[Elena]

Lyle recalled the man was white and fairly average looking, but he spoke with a very thick German accent. The man said, I only have about a hundred dollars left. As Lyle handed him his change. Thinking the bill might be counterfeit, Lyle jotted the license plate down on the bill. Wow. Investigators looked up the license plate number and learned the car belonged to Bruno Richard Hopton. He was from Germany and He lived on 222nd street in the Bronx. The description on file with the Department of Motor Vehicles said that he was 35 years old, 5ft 10 inches tall, 180 pounds, with blonde hair and blue eyes, more or less the description provided by Walter Lyle at the Warner Quinlan station. Okay. As far as they could tell, Hopdoman had no criminal record in the United States.

[Alaina]

States.

[Elena]

But records from Germany would take some time to arrive. Okay. The psychiatric consultant working with the police, Dr. Schoenfield, told the detectives that barging into Hopman's home would be a bad idea.

[Alaina]

It usually is a bad idea, usually in people's homes.

[Elena]

If he had the money there, or any other evidence he could, it could be quickly destroyed or hidden. Yeah. Besides, he reasoned, if Hoffman was the criminal they thought he was, there was a very good chance he would carry some of the money with him wherever he went as a reminder of his great victory over Charles Lindbergh.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Knowing they needed more evidence than the one school certificate from the gas station deposit, investigators decided to follow Schoenfield's advice rather than risk losing their suspect that they have right now. So that night, officers from New Jersey staked out his apartment building in the Bronx where he lived with his wife and one year old child.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Elena]

By 1:30am when there was still hadn't been any sign of Hopman, the surveillance was called off until the following morning. Unbeknownst to the New Jersey investigators, agents from the FBI had continued watching the apartment, a fact that, when learned by the detectives, would only further strain their working relationship with the government agents. Oh, that's not good. The next morning, detectives returned a little after 7am to watch the apartment. And finally, two hours later, Richard emerged from the building and walked to the garage to receive retrieve his car. Car. The detectives followed him at a steady pace for more miles, hoping they might catch him in the act of spending some of the money. But after it became clear he likely wasn't going to stop, Lieutenant JJ Finn gave the order to pull the car over to the road and arrest the suspect. Upon being pulled over, Richard appeared calm and relaxed. But the detective making the arrest wasn't going to take any chances. So he yanked the driver's side door open and jammed his pistol in Hoffman's ribs, telling him he was under arrest for passing counterfeit gold certificates. Okay. A lot that's would feel like an overreaction to counterfeit. Like it's only spending counterfeit money right now. Once out of the car, Richard Hotman was frisked and handcuffed. In his back pocket they found a wallet containing his identification and $26, including one 20 gold certificate from the ransom money. Okay. The detectives asked Hopman if he was the man who'd spent the ten dollar certificate at Warner Quinlan and told the manager he had a hundred more. And Hopman admitted that he had. Okay. He told the men that he had been fearful of inflation and had been collecting and saving the gold certificates for some time, which is like kind of valid of an excuse.

[Alaina]

That's a valid excuse.

[Elena]

Yeah. When Anna Hopman returned home from the park with her son that morning, she was shocked to find her husband sitting on the bed while several police officers ransacked their apartment.

[Alaina]

Yeah, that's a lot to walk into.

[Elena]

During their search search, they discovered roughly a hundred dollars in gold certificates in a tin box. But there was little else that would have connected him to the kidnapping. During the search, one of the FBI agents noticed him looking out the window towards the garage. Whenever he thought one of none of the investigators were looking.

[Alaina]

Oh, I love when they get little like.

[Elena]

Right. The agent looked in that direction and saw a wire going from the house to the garage and demanded to know what it was for. Richard explained that it was a burglar alarm. When he pressed a button next to the bed, a bright red light would come on. In the garage. Despite his protests of innocence and repeated claims that he had no money and knew nothing about the kidnapping, a large amount of evidence was found in his home that connected him to the crime. In the apartment, detectives found several notebooks that, while written in German, clearly contained plans for a homemade ladder similar to that used in the kidnapping. Written on the wall of the closet in the bedroom, they discovered John Condon's address us up.

[Alaina]

Why would you write that in your closet?

[Elena]

On the wall in the attic, they found that the planks of wood used in the construction of the house resembled the wood used in the construction of the ladder. So they took several boards into evidence to compare to the ladder. And most importantly, hidden in the suit, in a suitcase in the garage, they discovered nearly $14,000 of the ransom money. What the. Richard Hopman was held for two days before finally being charged with the kidnapping and murder of Charles Lindbergh Jr. On September 21, 1934. In that time, investigators attempted to learn all they could about him. He was born in Germany, trained as a carpenter, but worked as a machinist for most of his early career in Germany. When the war first broke out, he served in the military and was discharged after being wounded in a gas attack. Oh. Following his discharge, he found work in a coal mine, but that job didn't last very long. And after that, he kind of went from job to job until he weighed his way to the United States as a stowaway on a steamship. Damn. All of this information was provided to investigators by Hopman in their first interview with him after they arrested him.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

What he left out was the fact that his job in a coal mine ended after he was discovered stealing coal from his employer. Can't be doing that. And the years that followed weren't just marked by inconsistent employment, but by multiple arrests. At the time of the interview, investigators were still waiting on his criminal record from Germany.

[Alaina]

Right.

[Elena]

So detectives were still unaware of the extent of his criminal history and found it hard to square Richard Hopman, the family man, with the profile of a dangerous, dangerous criminal given to them by consulting psychiatrists.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

After reviewing the records, though, things started to make more sense.

[Alaina]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

Among the crimes that he had been arrested for in Germany were an incident in which he and a partner robbed a woman with a baby at gunpoint. Oh, and another incident in which he used a homemade ladder to break into and rob the home of the mayor.

[Alaina]

What? Yeah.

[Elena]

Hotman was prosecuted for the home breaking and sent to prison. But he escaped a short time later and fled to The U. S. Brother. When she was informed of her son's arrest in the U. S. Hopton's mother told a reporter, I am used to all sorts of things from the son who has caused me much heartaches, but this news is the worst yet.

[Alaina]

Oh, his poor mom.

[Elena]

Can you. I can't even fathom. I will not. Once he was in the US he kept a low profile and socialized very little. Those who knew him, yeah, those who knew him indicated that he was a likable, if quiet man who definitely didn't seem like the kind of person who would commit a crime. A former co worker, August Becker, said, I can't understand how hot men could do such a thing. He was quiet and shy, an extremely likable fellow, and I can't understand how he got mixed up in this affair

[Alaina]

that happens all the time.

[Elena]

So spooky though, when you're like, I literally can't fathom this person.

[Alaina]

No, it is spooky.

[Elena]

Others offered similar descriptions, including one man, John Harris, who described him as someone, quote, who seemed to have something constantly on his mind. Maybe he worked with Hotman a little more than a year earlier on a construction job. But according to Harris, Hopman had quit, saying he had been dabbling in Wall street and had been doing pretty well so he would not continue to work as a carpenter. Hello. After several hours of questioning that appeared to be going nowhere, detectives handed him a pen and a pad of paper and asked him to write and rewrite several paragraphs. As he wrote, the officers noticed that Hopman's penmanship was unnatural. The slant of the writing appeared to change mid paragraph and the writing was stiff and forced.

[Alaina]

Because he's trying to disguise his handwriting.

[Elena]

It was clear that he was trying to disguise his handwriting, which do.

[Alaina]

It's so interesting that like, even when you try to disguise your handwriting, you still have these little like idiosyncrasies that like only you have.

[Elena]

Exactly. And quick little note like just to I that I think of this. If you have a child listening, maybe don't let them listen to this part, cuz I'm going to say something that will ruin magic, so just don't. Yeah, all right, if hopefully they're out, I'm going to say it one more time. Get them out, get them out. If you have a child that's like, like you're still being whimsical with get them out. All right. I mean they, I don't know if they should be listening to this anyways, but like, hey, hey you. Do you But I. I can verify that you can't disguise your handwriting because anytime that I have had to write a note from a particular entity. Yeah. Of the holiday persuasion.

[Alaina]

Yes.

[Elena]

It's really hard. And I think one of my kids especially almost clocks it every time, really. And I try to make them all distinct, and sometimes they'll be like, oh, look at that. Is it. This one writes the same as this one. Yeah, like the, you know, a holiday character visitor that you have to.

[Alaina]

He visits for like.

[Elena]

But he does a lot of every single night, that one. And maybe one that comes and causes mischief in March.

[Alaina]

But you write letters from that guy

[Elena]

sometimes they have a weird distinction handwriting that's the same. And somebody might clock me for it every single time.

[Alaina]

Big, middle or small?

[Elena]

Middle. Every time, always.

[Alaina]

So that clocks all the tea.

[Elena]

She clocked it.

[Alaina]

She told me the other day, hard she distinct handwriting. She criticized me the other day for my quote, unquote, parenting. I said, I'm not your parent.

[Elena]

I'm not your parents. That's just bad parenting.

[Alaina]

I was like, what?

[Elena]

You're like, I'm not your parent, man.

[Alaina]

That's why I'm your tt.

[Elena]

But, yeah, it's hard. It is. It's really hard. So hopefully your child was out of the room for that. I tried talking anyway, but I. But I don't want to anything up. So, yeah, he was trying to disguise his handwriting. And later during the trial, he would claim that he had been ordered by the detective to. To misspell certain words, particularly those misspelled in the ransom notes. Okay, well, that's weird. However, if that did happen, according to Richard Cahill, there's no evidence to support that claim, and his quote, assertions of this were directly contradicted and refuted. Okay, good try.

[Alaina]

Well, the other. I mean, obviously they'd be refuted. Like, the detectives wouldn't be like, yeah, we did that.

[Elena]

No. But in the months following his arrest, the press eagerly covered every new piece of information about. Released by investigators, while also digging up their own information about Hopman. In mid October, for example, it was revealed that the handwriting on his automobile registration card, presumably written by Hopman, wasn't. Was analyzed against the ransom notes. According to handwriting analyst Robert Osborne, who would go on to testify on behalf of the state, the handwriting on the card was a match for the handwriting on the notes.

[Alaina]

I would love to be a handwriting analysis person.

[Elena]

Really?

[Alaina]

Yeah, I think that's. It's just so fascinating.

[Elena]

It is interesting. Now, by the time his trial began on January 3, 1935, there was little the press and public didn't know about the evidence against him. Him. And from an objective perspective, things didn't look good for the. For him.

[Alaina]

I love the way that sounded. Objective perspective.

[Elena]

That does sound nice. I like that. Now, not only was he found with the ransom money and several other pieces of evidence linking him to the crime, but investigators were able to prove conclusively that the wood used to make the ladder had come from his attic.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Elena]

Matching the boards.

[Alaina]

Wait, why did I, like, not know that? This was kind of solved?

[Elena]

Yeah. Now, beyond that, John Condon immediately recognized him as Cemetery John, the man who'd given. He'd given the ransom money to. Despite all the evidence against him, Richard Hopman maintained his innocence and denied having anything to do with the crime. He claimed that he'd received the money from his friend Isidore Fish, who died the previous.

[Alaina]

Isidore Fish is not real, is it? Or that back there is not real.

[Elena]

He said he died the previous year after returning to Germany. Sure. And according to Hopman, Fish had left the suitcase in Hopman's possession, and he didn't know what was inside until after his friend had died. As for the sketches of the house and the ladder found in the notebook, those have been drawn by a neighborhood child.

[Alaina]

Wait, I'm sorry. I missed that. He hadn't.

[Elena]

Yeah, I don't even know if I mentioned that. And I apologize if I didn't. He had sketches of the house. Hello. But don't worry, it was. It was a neighborhood child that did that in his notebook.

[Alaina]

Why does a neighborhood child have your notebook? Shut up, you idiot.

[Elena]

You find me some neighborhood child that has not. Not written the blueprint for a crude ladder in your notebook.

[Alaina]

I could give you 14 of them. I could give you four. I will round up all the kids on my street. I feel as though they don't have

[Elena]

the blueprint of a.

[Alaina]

Of a kidnapped house.

[Elena]

Now, it was Hopman claimed, all a big misunderstanding. And he could never have committed such a cruel and violent act.

[Alaina]

I mean, at gunpoint.

[Elena]

I want to know how. The writing was in his closet as well. Yeah. Like, why do you have that man child?

[Alaina]

A name in your. Like what? Yeah.

[Elena]

No, under. Under the circumstances, his story sounded preposterous. I love that word. At most, the prosecutor was willing to accept that he had an accomplice and was willing to take the death penalty off the table if Hotman could reveal that person's identity. The accomplice, Ernie, Question mark. He stuck to his story. He had nothing to do with it. On February 12, prosecutor Anthony Hawk made his clothing closing statement to the jury revisiting all the damning evidence against him. He said, now you can disregard personal identity, disregard the handwriting experts, disregard the latter, disregard those things. But I want you to remember this, that the man who got the $50,000 handed to him was the man who had buried in his very garage approximately $15,000 of this very money buried not in a shallow grave like the Lindbergh baby was buried, but buried in a garage. Bruno Richard Hopman. Now, the jury deliberated for a full day and no matter how they viewed the evidence. Sorry, I just said in the middle of that. No matter how they viewed the evidence, it seemed impossible that he wasn't responsible for the kidnapping. Yeah. On February 13th, they came out of their chambers and delivered a guilty verdict for which they sentenced him to die by electrocution.

[Alaina]

That one I kind of get.

[Elena]

The defense immediately appealed the verdict, of course to the state supreme court court. But on October 9, 1935, the justices handed down a decision upholding the lower courts court's verdict and sentence. A few months later, in early December, the U. S. Supreme court declined to hear Hopman's appeal and an execution date was set for January 17, 1936. When that day finally came, Hopman was granted a 30 day reprieve by the governor of New Jersey. But when that extension ended, he was simply re sentenced and given a new execution date. State after exhausting all his appeals and being denied clemency by the state, Richard Hopman was executed in the Electric Chair on April 3, 1936 at 8:47pm Wait,

[Alaina]

I did not know that somebody was held accountable for this at all. How did I miss that?

[Elena]

I mean, because there's so many theories about who else was involved. Yeah, like, and he went to his death denying any role in the kidnapping and murder. But like you had the guy's name

[Alaina]

in your closet, it and neighborhood children, sketches of the the home in your notebook.

[Elena]

Well, and in the decades after his execution, a lot of theories have sprung up around the case ranging from like okay, maybe plausible to like, no. While very few people doubt Richard Hopman's guilt, many, like former FBI profiler John Douglas, strongly suspect that he wasn't alone in this.

[Alaina]

Yeah, well, I don't. Yeah, I kind of get that.

[Elena]

Among other things, Douglas points to the fact that when he was arrested, he only had roughly one third of the money in his possession.

[Alaina]

And nobody thought about that.

[Elena]

And it's. That suggests other people were involved. Also, Douglas had the ransom Notes and a sample of Hopman's handwriting re analyzed using analysis software, which concluded that the ransom notes were not as strong a match for Hopman as previously described.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Elena]

So the fact that so much attention has been dedicated to the Lindbergh case is a testament to honestly Lindbergh's fame and power at the time. But the conspiracy theories that have popped up around the case are indicative of the extent of misinformation and confusion around the case. Yeah. From the moment Charlie went missing, Lindbergh used his power to control the police and locked them out of various aspects of the case. Add to that a seriously dysfunctional relationship between the state and federal authorities, and the result is a very messy investigation where several elements were mishandled and integrity could be called into question at times. Eventually, the public moved on from the case of Richard Hopman and the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby. But in the wake of Charles Lindbergh's death in 1974, which, like, feels 1974. I know, and it's like, that is very long ago at this point, but it doesn't feel that way. I think that's like, what is it? 54 years ago, damn. New information started coming to the surface that, like we said before, painted Lindbergh in not a great light. In addition to his enthusiasm for eugenics and the agenda of the Nazi party, it was discovered that Lindbergh had also secretly fathered multiple children with three different women.

[Alaina]

You know what?

[Elena]

All of whom were sworn to secrecy.

[Alaina]

I'm gonna say something. He has that vibe.

[Elena]

He does. He really does.

[Alaina]

He has that vibe.

[Elena]

Like, obviously, no child should ever suffer for the.

[Alaina]

No.

[Elena]

The shittiness of their parent. That is not. Not at all part of this.

[Alaina]

No, no.

[Elena]

It's just important to say that information came to light that, like, the American hero is not exactly what we thought he was.

[Alaina]

Yeah, they rarely are.

[Elena]

They rarely are. But even with all of that, which, like, obviously you have to touch upon, the fact of the matter is, if Richard Hopman did have an accomplice, we might never know.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

It doesn't feel like we will personally. You know where we stand. Unlike. We may never know.

[Alaina]

We. A cold case is never.

[Elena]

I feel like we could know. I feel like, you know, like, we may never know. That is something that could happen. Of course, that's always a situation, but I always feel like there's a possibility.

[Alaina]

It just feels.

[Elena]

Figure it out.

[Alaina]

It just feels like anybody who was, like, adjacently involved in this, even if they were innocent or not, like, was so secretive There was. There's a lot of secrets surrounding this, which obviously it happens so often with like these high profile, high society cases.

[Elena]

Yep, exactly.

[Alaina]

And that's the. That's the rub.

[Elena]

That's the thing. It's like he's. Louise. There's a lot here that I think we just don't know.

[Alaina]

Yeah, I think you're right. I hope that we know someday, though.

[Elena]

I do hope we know. Yeah. Because what a up. Tale. It really is. Yeah.

[Alaina]

And it's kind of. It's very sad, actually, that a lot of the times I think the baby and the murder of the baby gets

[Elena]

lost in the story. I think so too, too, in a lot of theories and the. The way it all happened and stuff like that. Like, I think the fact that a baby was brutally kidnapped and murdered is. Gets lost sometimes.

[Alaina]

Yeah. It just becomes this very, like, salacious story.

[Elena]

Charles Lindbergh Jr. Also just becomes the Lindbergh baby.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You know, doesn't even have a name. You know, like, it's just. It can. It. It can be rough. Yeah. It's a tough case, but at least they found out at least one person who did it. It. Because Richard definitely did it. He had a part in it, that's for sure. Yeah.

[Alaina]

That's crazy.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

I. I can't believe I never knew that.

[Elena]

I know.

[Alaina]

I'm looking for a fun fact for you really quick.

[Elena]

A fun fact.

[Alaina]

Oh, I have another fact about bees for you.

[Elena]

Fun, fun fact.

[Alaina]

Bees can fly higher than Mount Everest.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Alaina]

I love bees.

[Elena]

Good for bees.

[Alaina]

You hate bees. I love bees.

[Elena]

No, I don't hate bees.

[Alaina]

I don't hate bees.

[Elena]

I was like, no, don't say that about me. No, I'm scared of bees. I do not hate them. I respect. Respect them. You respect them so much.

[Alaina]

But you're.

[Elena]

You have such a. I don't want them landing on me. I don't like any bugs landing on me. It sends me into.

[Alaina]

You should seal. Enough.

[Elena]

There's. Yeah. Near her. I. Because I just don't want to be stung.

[Alaina]

I don't know why you become like a small child.

[Elena]

I've been stung before. Like, it's not bad. It's really not the end of the world. I don't like bugs on me. It's just not.

[Alaina]

And maybe it freaks me out because you respect bees so much. You don't want them to sting you because you don't want them to die.

[Elena]

Lie. That's the thing. I respect the hell out of bees. I want bees to be everywhere. I want to Encourage bees. Yeah. I just don't want them landing on me. That's fair enough. And that's. That's it.

[Alaina]

I like when bees land on me. Weirdly.

[Elena]

I get scared, I guess.

[Alaina]

Your kids are so scared.

[Elena]

I know it's my own fault probably. They probably got my DNA there.

[Alaina]

They get scared.

[Elena]

They get scared.

[Alaina]

I just think it's cool that they

[Elena]

can fly higher than Mount Everest.

[Alaina]

I think that's very cool. I also like women bees. Because they're boss. Hell, yeah. And so are we. And we with that.

[Elena]

And so are you.

[Alaina]

And so are you. All of you boss. We obviously hope you boss.

[Elena]

Keep listening. We hope you keep it weird.

[Alaina]

But not so weird that you forget about the Lindbergh baby and the fact that the Lindbergh baby was Charles Lindbergh

[Elena]

Jr. Yeah, little Charlie.

[Alaina]

It's a very sad story.

[Elena]

Poor little Charlie. Put some respect on it. Yeah. Bye. Bye, Sam. Sa. The 2026 Chevy Equinox is more than an SUV. It's your Sunday tailgate and your parking lot snack bar. Your lucky jersey. Your chairs and your big cooler fit perfectly in your even bigger cargo space. And when it's go time, your 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen's got the playbook, the playlist and the tech to stay a step ahead. It's more than an suv. It's your Equinox Chevrolet. Together, let's drive.

[Alaina]

Not sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news. These days, it's the skills that count. Udemy can help you get those in demand. Skills. Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us. Game developer. We've got you covered. AWS certified cloud practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you

[Elena]

can love what you do.

[Alaina]

Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job.