The Pizza Bomber Conspiracy

Summary

Morbid Podcast: The Pizza Bomber Conspiracy

Hosted by Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Original Release: January 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this chilling and twist-filled episode, Ash and Alaina dive into the infamous “Pizza Bomber” or “Collar Bomb” case—the 2003 Erie, Pennsylvania bank robbery involving Brian Wells, a pizza delivery man forced (or recruited?) to rob a bank while wearing an explosive collar. The hosts unravel the bizarre web of deception, murder, and manipulation at the heart of the case, drawing on details from Netflix's Evil Genius documentary and their own research. As always, their true-crime storytelling is peppered with candid humor, friendship banter, and empathetic reflection.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Warm-Up Banter: Catch-ups and Vibes (01:21–12:05)

• Health Updates: Ash and Alaina joke about recent illnesses and recovery, discussing home remedies, immune systems, and family life.
• Exciting News: They announce upcoming appearances (Watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen) and celebrate new beginnings with SiriusXM Podcasts+.
• Setting the Tone: Lighthearted, vibey chatting gives way to previewing the episode's dark story.
  Memorable quote:

  "You know what's not the best is that bad things happen in life and we talk about them. But the good thing is that we can talk about them together."
  —Ash (12:20)

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Introduction to the Pizza Bomber Case (12:27–14:13)

• Episode Focus: Ash introduces the case, noting its coverage in the Evil Genius documentary.
• Context: Reminds listeners of the infamous image of Brian Wells with a collar bomb (Netflix doc image trauma is real for both hosts).

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The Crime Unfolds: Brian Wells and the Collar Bomb (14:13–23:31)

The Robbery (14:13–17:06)

• Timeline: August 23, 2003, 2:30pm—Brian Wells, pizza delivery man, enters PNC Bank with a suspicious cane and a device locked around his neck.

• Demand Note: Hands teller a note demanding $250,000, threatening detonation within 15 minutes.

  • Quote:

    “Gather employees with access codes to vault and work fast to fill bag with 250,000. Damn. You have only 15 minutes.”
    —Ash, quoting the note (14:38)

• Heist Outcome: Due to vault time locks, he only leaves with $8,702, takes a lollipop, and exits.

• Host Reaction:

  “The fact that he took a lollipop just really sends me.”
  —Alaina (16:17)

Police Encounter & Tragedy (16:44–19:42)

• Apprehension: Caught by police outside his car. Pleads with officers, claiming he’s a victim.
  • He tells a story (likely fabricated) of being forced by “a group of young Black men” to wear the bomb.
• Bomb Detonates: As the bomb squad is delayed, the device beeps and explodes, killing Wells. The horrifying event is caught on camera—an indelible trauma for all involved.

Investigation Begins (19:47–23:31)

• Who Was Brian Wells?
  • Coworkers and friends describe him as simple, gentle, and lacking technical skills. Seems an unlikely mastermind.
• Device Complexity: Bomb collar and cane-gun are ingeniously made with decoy parts—“advance” work beyond Wells’ abilities.
• Scavenger Hunt: Bomb instructions and notes lay out a complex scavenger hunt for Wells, echoing "Saw"-like sadism.
  • Quote:

    “There is only one way you can survive this and that is to cooperate completely. …Act now, think later, or you will die.”
    —Ash, reading the note (23:29)

---

The Conspiracy Web: Investigation Deepens (26:49–43:21)

Early Suspicions & New Players (26:49–33:01)

• Pizza Delivery Setup: Wells was sent to a suspicious vacant lot for his last delivery—site of possible abduction.
• The “Guess” Shirt: Wells was found wearing a t-shirt (with “Guess” logo) that didn’t belong to him; hosts speculate it may have been a sick “in-joke” from the plotters.
• Scavenger Hunt Fail: Clues hidden at McDonald's and a remote wooded area—trail goes cold, theory emerges plotters abandoned the game when Wells is arrested.

Bill Rothstein Enters the Scene (33:01–38:10)

• Reporter’s Encounter: Rothstein, local handyman, gives press a casual tour near the crime scene, appearing unfazed.
• Chilling 911 Call: A month later, Rothstein calls police to report a frozen body (James Roden) in a freezer at his own house, insisting he didn't kill Roden but helped cover up the crime for his ex-girlfriend Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong.

Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong’s Deadly History (38:49–46:45)

• Pattern of Violence: Marjorie, intelligent but severely mentally ill, is linked to multiple suspicious deaths of lovers/husbands over decades.
• Mental Health and Hoarding: Famously found with 400lb butter & 700lb cheese rotting in her home—a sign of deep instability.

---

Unraveling Motives and Connections (47:35–66:33)

Linking Roden’s Murder and the Collar Bomb (47:35–50:53)

• Rothstein’s Suicide Note Oddity: Insists Roden’s body is “not related to the Wells case”—arousing police suspicion.
• Marjorie Talks (for a price): While in prison, Marjorie agrees to spill if she can transfer facilities.

The Web of Accomplices (50:53–56:09)

• Marjorie’s First Reveal: Claims Wells was in on the plan, and Rothstein masterminded it.
• Floyd Stockton: Another friend with a sordid past corroborates involvement.
• Kenneth Barnes: Crack dealer and ex-repairman arrested and flips, telling police that Marjorie orchestrated everything to fund a hit on her own father (for inheritance).

What Was Brian Wells’ Role? (56:09–65:27)

• Was He a Willing Participant?:
  • Stories vary:
    • Barnes claims Wells agreed to rob the bank thinking the bomb was fake, due to money troubles from a drug debt.
    • Barnes also alleges when Wells realized the bomb was real, he tried to flee but was forced at gunpoint.
• Hosts’ Analysis: They voice skepticism; nothing in Wells’ history matches “willing accomplice” and note how “desperation” might have overruled agency.

---

Aftermath and Legal Resolution (65:27–68:14)

• Trial of Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong:
  • Her trial is a spectacle, with her outbursts, refusal to cooperate, and endless self-sabotage.
  • Ultimately found guilty of armed bank robbery, conspiracy, and use of a destructive device in a crime of violence; given a life sentence plus 30 years.
• Death & Odd Claims: Marjorie dies of cancer in prison (2017). Stranger still, a man later claims to be her “common law husband” and sues for her remains while denying her death.
• Kenneth Barnes: Sentence halved in exchange for testimony, set to be released in 2027.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Surreality of the Case:

  “The brutality and utter lack of respect for life displayed by the indicted is rarely seen outside of a movie screen.”
  —Lead ATF Agent Mark Potter (59:30, paraphrased by Ash)

• On Wells’ Role:

  “Nothing about that feels like a willing participant, no matter what the situation was.”
  —Alaina (68:32)

• On Marjorie’s Behavior:

  “[She] ridiculed her own lawyer. She belittled the prosecutor. She cried, she yelled... The judge actually reprimanded her more than 50 times with, like, no effect.”
  —Ash, citing journalist coverage (66:00)

• On the Darkness of the Case:

  “At the end of the day, I believe that no matter what the real story is, because I don't think we ever got the real story of Brian Wells involvement. He's a victim.”
  —Ash (68:14)

• Comic Relief – Giraffe Fact:

  “The male giraffe will continuously headbutt the female in the bladder until she urinates… He tastes the urine to determine if the female is ovulating, and if so, the merriment begins.”
  —Ash (70:07)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:21–12:05: Intro, small talk, upcoming appearances, SiriusXM move
• 12:27–14:13: Case background, setting up the Pizza Bomber story
• 14:13–19:42: Bank heist, Brian Wells’ capture and death
• 22:33–23:31: Discovery of the scavenger hunt and bomb complexity
• 33:01–38:10: Enter Bill Rothstein, discovery of frozen body
• 38:49–46:45: Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong’s background, mental illness, hoarding
• 50:53–65:27: Informant testimonies, unraveling the wider conspiracy
• 65:27–68:14: Marjorie’s trial, conviction, aftermath
• 70:07–71:14: Bizarre animal fact and light-hearted closeout

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Podcasters' Tone & Language

Ash and Alaina balance a casual, humorous, and empathetic tone, often breaking tension with quips, pop culture references, frank expressions of horror, and support for victims. They challenge the narrative that Brian Wells was a “perpetrator,” question official accounts, and express consistent compassion for the victims and outrage at the plotters’ coldness and bizarre behavior.

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For New Listeners

• The episode is an accessible, deeply researched yet conversational exploration, perfect for those new to the case or to Morbid.
• Hosts’ banter keeps the story digestible without trivializing the gravity of the crimes.
• Key facts and the winding nature of the case are easy to follow—thanks to Ash and Alaina’s clear explanations and periodic recaps.

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Final Thoughts

• The Pizza Bomber case is among the strangest and darkest in US true crime history, involving a cast of manipulative, unwell, and dangerous individuals.
• Despite multiple confessions and conspiracy revelations, the full, unvarnished truth of Brian Wells’ involvement—a victim, a dupe, or a pawn—remains elusive, and the episode leaves listeners pondering the nature of evil, desperation, and manipulation.
• Morbid provides a balanced blend of detail, empathy, and levity throughout a story that could easily be overwhelming.

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Transcript

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[Ash]

Hey, weirdos. I am Ash.

[Alaina]

And I am Alaina.

[Ash]

And this is morbid. I did that thing where I almost said I'm Elena. I don't know why that happens so frequently.

[Alaina]

You just, you know, you feel it in your bones.

[Ash]

Yeah, we're related.

[Alaina]

I guess. We are.

[Ash]

You know.

[Alaina]

What's up, everybody? Hey.

[Ash]

Elena's alive again. That's nice.

[Alaina]

I am nice. I saw that. Most people also have contracted this viral plague that none of us can figure out what it is.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's something.

[Alaina]

It'll kick your ass, though.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

And I know. Here's just one little thing. When somebody gets sick, saying you're always sick is not helpful in any way.

[Ash]

No, don't say that.

[Alaina]

So don't. Don't do that.

[Ash]

No, not you. Listening. No, that other person.

[Alaina]

Whoever said that, like. Okay, shut up. Thank you.

[Ash]

Shut up.

[Alaina]

Helpful. But, yeah, it's. It sucks. And my littlest one had the flu. And, yes, kids are always.

[Ash]

She had the saddest little cough that I ever did hear. I said, she was like, yeah, it just, I think, yeah, it was so like hoarse.

[Alaina]

It was, it really was. And she was like down for the count for a couple days, but she kicks things in the face. She does not hold on to them long. She's like, hey, you don't get to stay here.

[Ash]

No. She was still coughing. But she was.

[Alaina]

But she said that I'm fine.

[Ash]

She's the best of them.

[Alaina]

Yeah. She was like, I'm going outside in the snow. Bye.

[Ash]

Yeah, she was like. She actually admonished me for not having snow pants.

[Alaina]

Yeah. She was like, we're going outside.

[Ash]

I said, I'm sorry, I don't have them. And she was like, well, will you get some? I was like, probably not, cuz we're going maybe.

[Alaina]

But yeah. So hopefully everybody who has this plague, you can feel. I feel much better because I'm on antibiotics now.

[Ash]

Can I tell you something? You look so much better.

[Alaina]

Oh yeah. I looked like the walking dead.

[Ash]

Christmas morning I woke up and looked at you and I said, maybe it's just because it's early. And then the day progressed and I said, maybe something's actually really wrong.

[Alaina]

It's getting worse. Yeah.

[Ash]

You looked really good on your birthday though.

[Alaina]

Appreciate I said that to her on.

[Ash]

Her birthday and she goes, I'm wearing so much makeup right now. It didn't look like it because it.

[Alaina]

Was the first time I put on makeup in like a thousand years at that point. Because yeah, Christmas, it was Christmas Eve that I really, really started feeling it.

[Ash]

Christmas Eve, you looked great. But I could tell you were off a little bit. Yeah.

[Alaina]

It was like I was trying to be like, okay, maybe it's just the dry air, you know when you had.

[Ash]

To be like the hostess with the hostess.

[Alaina]

Yes. So I was like, you know, my throat was razor blades and I was like, I think it's fine, it's dry. Because that happens during the winter sometimes. Yeah. You wake up and you're like, oh, I have a sore throat. What is this? And you're like drier.

[Ash]

I keep waking up with like a little bit of like a bloody nose. Not like see the running, but like dry. Yeah.

[Alaina]

So it was Christmas morning, I woke up and I was like, oh. But I just pretended everything was fine because it's Christmas morning.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

Which was awesome.

[Ash]

It was great. Such a fun moment.

[Alaina]

I really only let it fall once the kids had gone to sleep on Christmas day. I was like, yeah, I don't feel well, everybody.

[Ash]

No.

[Alaina]

And then it was, I mean, eight days of bullshit. No moment of feeling better. Like I Was waking up every morning being like, what? What is this? Because usually I feel better after a few days, you know, like a couple days in. You're like, all right, I'm starting to get on the other side of it.

[Ash]

I hate to admit this, but even my pastina could not cure her. No, my pastina has. Has cured many.

[Alaina]

Ate it all.

[Ash]

Yeah. Well, this time I had to make. I made the pastini. You had that. And now hopefully the bisque will. Will kick the last of it out of you. Yeah, I made her a sweet potato bisque with, like, a ton of sriracha.

[Alaina]

I'm really excited for that.

[Ash]

Also, I know you're not, like, a soupy girl, so I did see this girly on Tick Tock. Put it over ground beef.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Ash]

And I was like, it sounds a little weird, but I was like, that looks like it'd be really good.

[Alaina]

Sounds kind of good to me.

[Ash]

It kind of makes it almost like a chili.

[Alaina]

Yeah, I like that.

[Ash]

Ooh. I might turn it.

[Alaina]

Check it. But, yeah, it was. I had one day of a 14 and a half hour headache.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

That I thought I would. I was like, well, this is it. Goodbye, cruel world. Like, I was literally like, this is. This is how I go.

[Ash]

I would have been so angry.

[Alaina]

I cried several times.

[Ash]

You cried?

[Alaina]

Yes. Just out of pure frustration of, like, I can't get away from this pain and I need to do something about it.

[Ash]

That's the saddest thing I ever did here.

[Alaina]

It was bad. This was a bad sickness.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Alaina]

It's not fun. And I know a lot of you are dealing with it too, because a lot of people were like, yup, Same plague over here. Like, feeling it. I'm so sorry.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

And I don't have any tips for you, because the only thing that worked for me was my doctor giving me an antibiotic because I finally got a sinus infection. And I got like.

[Ash]

That was a crazy way to say that. Finally got a sinus infection.

[Alaina]

Finally got a sinus infection. I've been waiting for one, but I got, like, a. He called it something. And so he was like, I'm gonna put, you know, like, the. The infection that I had. Oh. And he was like, I'm gonna put you on an antibiotic. And it was the only thing that made me feel better.

[Ash]

It's insane, because I was with you for, like, a lot of this. Drew was with you, John was with you, and none of us are sick. And I would like to, right here on this mic right now, shout out to my immune System?

[Alaina]

Yeah. For real.

[Ash]

I've been taking a shit ton of elderberry and zinc.

[Alaina]

Well, the good. You never get sick.

[Ash]

Don't say. Don't you dare. Don't you. Why the fuck did you just say no?

[Alaina]

It's being a dick. Because I get that you're always sick. Yeah.

[Ash]

Elaine is always sick. Don't say that to me, God damn it.

[Alaina]

You can never. I rebuke you. No. You have a good immune system.

[Ash]

I think so, anyways. Which is, like, kind of shocking for a life I led for a while, but, you know, what are you going to do?

[Alaina]

I think my. My system was in Fight or Flight for a couple years. Yeah. So I think it's just shadow.

[Ash]

Same. I think mine is just like. I think I was born in Fight or Flight. So my body's just like, yeah, what's up? What else is needing more time to.

[Alaina]

Get used to it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

But. Yeah, other than that. Thank you so much for the birthday wishes.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

This bitch is 40, but they're still coming in. And you guys are amazing. And you made me feel really good.

[Ash]

40 is the new 30.

[Alaina]

It is.

[Ash]

You like, 40 is a great age. I feel it's just a goddamn number.

[Alaina]

I'm not worried about it.

[Ash]

Time's made up.

[Alaina]

It's not even.

[Ash]

Realistically. It's not even the New year. I've been seeing so many. I follow so many witchy accounts now that it's like, not like, it's not the New year.

[Alaina]

I mean, it feels like the new year.

[Ash]

No, but it's not, because the. The Earth is still resting. It's still frigid. We're supposed to be hibernating. The New Year's in the spring when, like, life pops up from the ground again.

[Alaina]

Oh. See, I like New Year being in winter because it's like it cleans everything.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

It feels clean. It feels a new.

[Ash]

Yeah, it doesn't feel that new to me.

[Alaina]

That's also what that old man told Frankenstein's monster in Frankenstein Such. She said, in the winter, the world is clean.

[Ash]

It is clean. And I do like that.

[Alaina]

I agree.

[Ash]

Yeah. Such a good movie. If you guys haven't seen Frankenstein, you gotta go check it out. I think we talked about this already.

[Alaina]

I think I might talk about it every time we thought, like, honestly, we should. I remain obsessed with that movie again.

[Ash]

Also, I feel like I was just shocked because I didn't think, like, not for any, like, particular reason. It's just, like, not, like, super up my alley. Like, I wouldn't have thought it would be.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But then when I watched it, I was, like, blown away.

[Alaina]

So it's Guillermo.

[Ash]

Give it a chance. If you're. If you're on the fence, anything Guillermo.

[Alaina]

Is attached to, I'm in.

[Ash]

I can't believe that I didn't just, like, come into the episode screaming this. Tomorrow night, we're gonna be on watch what happens live.

[Alaina]

I still can't believe that that's a real thing.

[Ash]

Tomorrow night we're gonna be on watch what the fuck happens live with Andy Cohen. And I don't know how to function on a basic human level with that thought in my mind. And I still don't know what I'm wearing yet.

[Alaina]

No, I.

[Ash]

Am I deciding between eight dresses? Yeah, I sure am. It's SLC night. I need to look like a snow. Like, I need to look like snowflake vibes. But, like, fierce vibes. If Bronwyn's there, I gotta be camp. Like, there's a lot to figure out.

[Alaina]

There is.

[Ash]

Nobody cares what I look like that.

[Alaina]

Honestly, I do. I'm here for the vibes. I'm excited to just watch you flip the. Like, I'm excited because I love Bravo shirts, but this is real. I'm very excited to see Ash live this. Yeah. And I'm very excited to live it, but on, like, a different level.

[Ash]

You're living it on. We're living it on different levels.

[Alaina]

I'm very excited. But I just, like, I know what this means to Ash, so I'm very excited.

[Ash]

I appreciate that. And I'm excited to live it. To watch you live it. Because you get to announce something pretty exciting.

[Alaina]

I do.

[Ash]

That we can't say yet.

[Alaina]

But watch this space, you will know if you watch. Watch what happens. You'll know.

[Ash]

10:15 tomorrow night. Check it.

[Alaina]

If you watch this space in our socials the following day on the 7th, then you will know there's. I'm announcing something. I can't wait. And I bet you can't imagine what it is.

[Ash]

Oh, my God, I'm so excited, guys. So many.

[Alaina]

Very excited.

[Ash]

So many cool things are happening. We had Alisa Kelly here and she was telling us about, like, our personal charts and how, like, abundant this, like, next year it's going to be. And then I'm taking an astrology class and my teacher, like, echoed the same sentiment and she said, she was like, wow, you're going to be busy as, like, the next year or so. Like, it's going to be. And she was like, it's going to be like, so Successful, though. And it was the same thing that Ala said. And then everything that I've learned, I'm like, oh, I think it might be, like, super abundant.

[Alaina]

Let's go.

[Ash]

And that's for both of us.

[Alaina]

I'm in.

[Ash]

Yeah. We have great Juvener placements, and I just like to thank the universe.

[Alaina]

Yeah. They. The. The year 2026 starting off on a fun note, on a happy note, on a. On a note of letting go of things that don't serve anymore. It's the first year that we're starting off at serious.

[Ash]

Yes. So I feel that's so abundant, so different. That's an abundant energy right there. Abundance of happiness, optimism.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It felt very freedom.

[Alaina]

This. This clock flipping over. I said, whoop.

[Ash]

You know those. You know those candles where, like, people will, like, tie them together and then they light them to, like, separate the ties? Which we did at a certain point.

[Alaina]

We did at one point at time.

[Ash]

It feel like that.

[Alaina]

No particular reason.

[Ash]

No particular reason. But, yeah, it feels like that is finally, like, coming into play. You know what I mean?

[Alaina]

It feels good.

[Ash]

It does feel.

[Alaina]

It feels very good. It feels like we can be. We can have a lot of fun this year with the show and with the rewatcher and with Scream and all these fun people are going to be.

[Ash]

On the pod and Sirius just gets us. Like, I. We should say Sirius is the reason that we're going to be on Watch what happens live because our deal lead Carrie. What's up, Carrie? Love you, Carrie. Love you. Carrie figured it all out because she knows that, like, I'm a huge fan. She knows that you are, like, a New York Housewives fan. She was like, let's fucking do it.

[Alaina]

Yeah. And they just made it happen.

[Ash]

So Serious is the best.

[Alaina]

They've been wonderful.

[Ash]

And Carrie is the best working with them. And that was my computer talking to us because it said, I'm the best, too. You know what's not the best is that bad things happen in life and we talk about them. But the good thing is that we can talk about them together.

[Alaina]

We can.

[Ash]

And that's the whole premise of the show.

[Alaina]

Wow. That was beautiful. Thank you. I really liked that.

[Ash]

Thank you so much. So we're going to be talking today about the pizza bomber conspiracy.

[Alaina]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

I think we talked about this, like, briefly in an episode because I kept waking up in the night to the trailer on my. So do I.

[Alaina]

Yes.

[Ash]

It was just this one picture. That was very frightening.

[Alaina]

Yeah. Because what is the name of the documentary?

[Ash]

It's like Evil something. Evil genius.

[Alaina]

I think it's something like that. Evil genius.

[Ash]

Evil genius. Yeah.

[Alaina]

And I vividly remember that. And I remember you were. You were like, I keep waking up to this.

[Ash]

I think it was like earlier days of the pod when I was a little more free with my words. I probably was super explicit about how that made me feel back then.

[Alaina]

I mean, it's rough. It was scary. That is not something you. Yeah. It came out in 2018.

[Ash]

Yes. Yeah. So it was early days of the pod. Go back and you'll know exactly how I felt about waking up to that. Yep. But let's actually talk about the story because this is something we like. Like I just said, briefly talked about, but we've never gone into full detail.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So let's get into it. So we'll start at the beginning. It's a great place to start, I always say.

[Alaina]

I can't believe.

[Ash]

Also, this happened in like 2003, by the way, which is nuts.

[Alaina]

I know. Which feels like it was 10 years ago.

[Ash]

Oh. To me. Not at all.

[Alaina]

Oh. Literally, it feels like it was 10. Like what? I literally said, here's to 2006 last night.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

When me and my kids and my husband cheered. That's on with our apple cider or sparkling cider?

[Ash]

2006.

[Alaina]

And John was like, it's 2026, babe.

[Ash]

Yeah. He said, you're 20.

[Alaina]

And I was like, first of all, I'm on cold medicine. And second of all, can it be 2006?

[Ash]

You said, let women have opinions, John, on the time frame. He said, Trust Women. It's 2006.

[Alaina]

So.

[Ash]

All right, so it was not 2006. Here it was 2003. And it was a little past 2:30 in the afternoon when 46 year old Brian Wells walked into the lobby of the PNC bank on August 23. At first, nobody really noticed him. He was just kind of like another guy sitting in a line of customers. But when he got to the counter, the teller was caught off guard because in his right hand, Brian was holding what kind of looked like a cane, but he wasn't using it as a cane. Like, it didn't look functional.

[Alaina]

That would upset me.

[Ash]

Yeah, it'd be pretty upsetting. What would be even more upsetting is in the other outstretched hand, he held what investigators later described as an extensive note for the teller. The note part of it said, gather employees with access codes to vault and work fast to fill bag with 250, 000. Damn. You have only 15 minutes.

[Alaina]

Oh. I would immediately lose my Mind if.

[Ash]

I have a hundred dollars in cash? I can't count that in 15 minutes. That takes a minute. That'd be so stressful. So when the teller looked up from the note, Wells lifted his shirt to reveal a really bizarre device that looked like it was locked around his neck with a large handcuff, like, what looked to be a large handcuff. And on the front of the cuff, there was a small box that allegedly contained an explosive device with an electronic timer that was hanging down over his chest. You gotta look up pictures of this to, like, really get a picture of it. It's the most horrifying thing you will ever see. But according to the note that he handed the teller, the device was rigged to explode within 15 minutes. And if they didn't hand over that amount of cash in that timeframe, everybody in the bank, including Brian, would be killed in the explosion. So the teller explained that that wasn't going to be possible because the bank vault was on a timer. So there was literally no way that he could get in. They could get inside to get that money. So instead, they all emptied the cash from the drawers into the bag, which was a total of $8,702. Very different from 250,000.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And they handed it over to him. He took a lollipop and slowly made his way out the door.

[Alaina]

The fact that he took a lollipop just really sends me.

[Ash]

Not only did he take a lollipop, he was also, like, swinging the cane as he walked out the door, just, like, gingerly wearing an explosive device strapped around his neck and chest.

[Alaina]

I. Okay. Yeah, okay.

[Ash]

So once he got outside, he hopped into his Geometro and he sped away from the scene while the staff in the bank said, hello, 91 1. I would like to report a robbery.

[Alaina]

Hello? Hello?

[Ash]

About 15 minutes later, two state troopers on patrol spotted Wells standing outside of his car in a parking lot not too far from the bank. And as they approached him, they also noticed the large bulge around his neck. And they were like, that's strange. But they kept approaching, and he seemed surprised as they tackled him and threw him to the ground, cuffing his hands behind his back.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

He didn't resist arrest, but he explained that even though he was the person who, yes, had just robbed the bank, he was just as much a victim as anybody else was. According to Brian, he had been accosted by a group of young black men earlier that afternoon. His words. And they cuffed the bomb around his neck and told him that they were only going to remove it Once he robbed the bank and he yelled at them, the police, warning them it's going to go off. I'm not lying. So this is serious.

[Alaina]

As if, if that is true. Because I don't know what came out of this. So I don't know what the theories are. I don't know what any of this is, if that's true. That scariest thing I have ever heard in my life. Yeah, absolutely. Is you're sitting there with an explosive device around your neck that you know is real. Yeah. And you're sitting there being like, I swear I'm not. Please get this thing off of me. Yeah.

[Ash]

And everybody's just like, it sounds like saw.

[Alaina]

Because that's the thing.

[Ash]

That's all I could think of in the beginning of this. I was like, this literally sounds like, do you want to play a game?

[Alaina]

Like, are you sure it wasn't like an older white man who put that around your neck?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

Like, are you sure? An ailing white man.

[Ash]

Funny you should say that. So the troopers ordered Wells to sit on the ground beside his car. And they obviously backed away slowly to their cars. They called the bomb squad, called reinforcements to the scene. And just as troopers were calling for backup, a TV news crew arrived at the scene and started filming this very bizarre, drawn out arrest, which it's like the video is available and it's absolutely horrifying. It does not end well. So for 25 minutes, Brian Wells just sat on the ground beside his car, his hands cuffed behind his back, his legs were curled underneath him. And they were just sitting there waiting for the bomb squad, yelling back and forth to each other, like, him and the officers. He asked if they would call his boss at Mamma Mia's Pizzeria to tell them that he was being detained and, like wasn't going to make it back to work. And then he yelled, why is nobody trying to come get this thing off of me.

[Alaina]

Oh. And then this is really upsetting.

[Ash]

It's really upsetting. And this next part is even more upsetting. Then without warning, the device around his neck started making a beeping sound that was accelerating. And for the first time that afternoon, he became like visibly anxious and started scooting backwards on the ground. And they're yelling at him, like, you need to stay put, but how do you.

[Alaina]

What?

[Ash]

And a few seconds later, to the shock and horror of absolutely everybody at that scene, the device around his neck detonated, knocking him onto his back, obviously. And it ripped a 5 inch hole through his chest.

[Alaina]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Which obviously killed him. Instantly. And three minutes later, the bomb squad arrived.

[Alaina]

Oh, like, oh, that sucks.

[Ash]

It does. So for the rest of the day, agents from the local office of the FBI, along with agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the local police, all just converged on the explosion scene, trying to figure out what the had happened there. It was clear that he was the man who robbed the bank earlier that day, and he said as much and, like, his face had clearly been seen on camera. But what was unclear was if he was a willing participant, participant in the robbery or if he had been put up to it. Like he said, obviously they couldn't just take his word at face value because.

[Alaina]

It wouldn't seem that he's a willing participant if that thing is locked around his neck and he's sitting there being like, you got to get it off me.

[Ash]

And the fact that it did explode, like, why would anybody ever sign up for that? You know? So through interviews with his friends and co workers, investigators were able to put together a picture of Brian's life that indicated he really wasn't the kind of person who would have likely been able to pull off a stunt like this.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Ash]

His boss, Tony Dorno, told a reporter, I've known Brian for a long time. He wouldn't kill a fly. He wouldn't harm nobody. Others who knew him said the same thing. His coworker, Jim Saowski said, he never seemed mad. I never heard him talk of violence. That's why this crime doesn't fit him. Not at all.

[Alaina]

Oh, that's. And the fact that he had them, like, call his boss.

[Ash]

Yeah. To say, like, he was going to.

[Alaina]

Be late or not be there.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

That broke my heart.

[Ash]

It's very sad. Now, obviously, this kind of thing happens all the time. Like, we've talked about this. People can conceal certain parts of themselves and do awful things while putting on a nice face to, of course, everyone else in their life. But something more compelling was the descriptions of Brian Wells. A lot of people described him as childlike. People said he was too simple. Their words, not mine. To have orchestrated something like this. Like, okay, it's a very put together that bomb. Exactly. According to those who knew him, he had dropped out of high school during sophomore year. And he had some basic skills as a car mechanic, but he didn't have a lot of technical skills. So like you were just saying, like, he struggled using his computer.

[Alaina]

Yeah. It wasn't gonna be putting together a bomb.

[Ash]

Feels like it would be a little advanced. Yeah, exactly. So people were like, I don't know. So an investigator searched his car. They found, among other things, the cane that he was seen holding in the security footage. But upon closer inspection, it turned out that it wasn't a cane. So that teller was onto something. It was a homemade shotgun disguised as a cane.

[Alaina]

Isn't that crazy?

[Ash]

And similarly, when BOM technicians analyzed the explosive collar, it was also a very creatively designed device constructed from a locking metal collar and a bunch of kitchen timers and a small box that held two 6 inch pipe bombs. But in addition to the functional parts, there were also several wires that ran in and out of the box, but connected to nothing. So whoever put this together had placed those wires that didn't go anywhere as decoys.

[Alaina]

I was just going to say it's like little decoy wires.

[Ash]

Yeah. To basically like whoever was going to.

[Alaina]

Fuck with the bomb squad or.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Alaina]

Yeah, exactly. That's advance.

[Ash]

Yeah. They knew what they were doing. And it was also pretty clear this was not the first time they had built something like this. To build it one, so well to be functional and two to add those extra things. So it was now abundantly clear that if Brian Wells was even a willing participant at all, he obviously hadn't acted alone.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Along with the gun and the bomb, technicians also discovered several handwritten notes, just like the one that was given to the teller, that seemed to be elaborate instructions for what was kind of looked to be like a bizarre scavenger hunt is like the best way you can put it. The notes were all addressed to bomb hostage and included instructions. But like very complex instructions, drawings and other information telling him what he needed to do to survive this. It really is, is very saw.

[Alaina]

Which also doesn't seem, make it seem like he's involved.

[Ash]

No, exactly.

[Alaina]

It's like he's the hostage.

[Ash]

Exactly. It's literally addressed to hostage. One note said there is only one way you can survive this and that is to cooperate completely. This powerful booby trapped bomb can be removed only by following our instructions. Act now, think later, or you will die.

[Alaina]

This is the most soft thing I've ever heard. It really is. Like I'm, I'm like what?

[Ash]

When you find out how this was all put together, it's actually one of the scariest. No matter what, it's the scariest shit you've ever heard. But then you come to find out like who was involved and how this all came to be. And the, the reason for why it came to be is just, it just doesn't seem to line up with any of this. But it also does at the same time. It's wild.

[Alaina]

And was this 2003?

[Ash]

2003. Yeah.

[Alaina]

What's crazy is Saw, the first one came out in 2004. Really isn't that crazy? I was interested there to be some kind of connection. Connection of maybe like somebody saw something. But no, no. No pun intended.

[Ash]

That's crazy, huh?

[Alaina]

But wow.

[Ash]

Remember the day that we just watched almost all of the Saw movies and John came home from work and was like, what the are you guys doing?

[Alaina]

And I also remember the day that I watched the first Saw movie.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

And how it changed my entire.

[Ash]

I think the day that you and I watched them all was the day that I had seen them for the first time. Yeah.

[Alaina]

The first Saw movie.

[Ash]

So good.

[Alaina]

Changed things. That twist.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

I'll never. I'll never feel that feeling again.

[Ash]

I mean, you write a pretty good twist. I appreciate that you give that feeling.

[Alaina]

Oh, Leigh Whannell, you know how she.

[Ash]

Feels about Leigh Whannell.

[Alaina]

Go listen to the invisible Man.

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[Ash]

So the information gathered during an interview with Brian's boss supported the growing likelihood that he was a victim. Him?

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

According to his boss, he had been sent out on a delivery a few hours before the robbery. So he was like at work that.

[Alaina]

Day that this all started like delivering pizzas.

[Ash]

Delivering pizzas. He got a call. He went to an address on Peach street, which was like an industrial area in south Erie. And aside from a television transmission tower, the area where the order was sent to had a handful of small houses, multiple vacant lots. Like it wasn't super populated. It was just like a. A smaller town area. And given that he left the restaurant a little after 1:30 and never returned, investigators suspected that's where everything had started.

[Alaina]

Makes sense.

[Ash]

FBI agent Bob Hebel told reporters he is sent to a non residence. He goes where there's no house. Right from the beginning. There's certainly something suspicious here.

[Alaina]

This is even scarier that he was just doing his job, going to a house and they just snatched him. It seems that way is what it seems like. And that idea is terrifying.

[Ash]

The entire thing is. Is horrifying. So Wells having been sent to deliver a pizza to a non address, like that was weird, obviously. But it wasn't the only weird thing that happened just before the robbery. At the time of his death, he was wearing two T shirts and the outer shirt had the guess logo on it. And according to the people he was working with at the pizzeria that day, he wasn't wearing that shirt when he left. And his family members insisted they had never seen him wearing that shirt and didn't even think that it belonged to him.

[Alaina]

Interesting.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

It's just like they put that shirt on him and why, you know, I don't know. I'm trying to think of what would be the.

[Ash]

I don't really understand that piece of it.

[Alaina]

Is it supposed to be like ironic maybe? Like, guess what's in here.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah, probably.

[Alaina]

Like, are they being like a. Like a. Like a weird, gross, dark probably?

[Ash]

Honestly, probably, yeah.

[Alaina]

Ew.

[Ash]

I hate that even more.

[Alaina]

I hate that I thought that way.

[Ash]

But we've covered a lot of these cases so it makes sense. And also, you were just screaming about Leigh wan l so it makes sense. That's very true.

[Alaina]

Yeah. We know who you are. Forever scream about Lee.

[Ash]

So while agents were digging into his background and searching his Home. A second set of investigators was trying to complete the scavenger hunt themselves, hoping, you know, maybe it would lead them to any co conspirators. After the bank robbery, the note instructed Wells to go to a McDonald's restaurant nearby and look for a rock near the drive thru sign. And under that rock, he was to find the next note. That was as far as he had made it. But he was arrested just after he picked up the note. Okay, so the team followed the instructions in that note and that led them to a wooded area out by Peach street, which is where they located the next note. Hidden in a container covered in orange tape. That note directed them two miles south to a small road sign where the next clue would be waiting in a jar in the woods.

[Alaina]

Did he even have time to complete all this? Ah, like that's a lot of.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's. It is interesting.

[Alaina]

Did they even give him enough time to get conceivably through, like even the container covered in orange tape? Yeah, you gotta get through that.

[Ash]

I don't know, it feels like we can talk about it later. Okay, that's a good point.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So when they got to the location where the next clue was supposed to be, they found nothing. So they theorized that whoever had been leaving the clues for Brian Wells had been following his progress and had probably abandoned the plan when they saw him getting arrested by the state troopers.

[Alaina]

Ah, okay.

[Ash]

So unsurprisingly, the story about the bank robbery and the collar bomb obviously immediately captivated everybody's attention. Like public wise. FBI agent Bob Rudge told reporters it's not unusual for bank robbers to force tellers to hand over money by claiming to be carrying explosives. But bank rob, bank robbers who are actually, who actually have explosives are a bit more unusual. And bank robbers who actually die when bombs go off are virtually unheard of. Yeah. What makes this case different is that the robber was killed. But unfortunately, if the press and public were hoping for easy answers or a quick resolution, they were going to be very disappointed. A flurry of statements from law enforcement officials went out, but there would really be little to update the press on in the days that followed. Yeah, this all just kind of hit a dead end pretty quickly. So within a week of the robbery and Brian Wells death, investigators hadn't made any progress on the case and they started turning to the public for help. They released pictures of the bomb collar in the hopes that somebody might recognize it, which I'm like, I'm unsure about.

[Alaina]

Like, imagine just being like, oh, and this is a calling in I saw.

[Ash]

That at Ted's house.

[Alaina]

Oh, my God. I. I know that caller. Yeah, I've seen that.

[Ash]

Like what? Yeah, I'm not sure about that. I mean, you gotta try again, I guess. What else are you gonna.

[Alaina]

You never know. I don't. Maybe criminals can be stupid. So they can. And like, maybe the way it was.

[Ash]

Constructed might stick out to somebody.

[Alaina]

Or like, people sold some of the parts to somebody. Like that giant. Because that giant piece that looks like a big handcuff.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alaina]

Is pretty unique. I wonder if somebody was like, oh, I sold that. I rarely sell those, but I did sell that. Yeah.

[Ash]

You just never know.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But by then, the case had obviously attracted national attention, and FBI agents were appearing on news programs like Good Morning America, here, There and everywhere to talk about the case place. Even though there was an increase in public attention, though, new leads were scarce. And the public was growing very frustrated by the lack of progress here. Which I can't imagine living in this area and being like, so we don't know who tied a bomb around somebody's neck and are they gonna do it again? Exactly. Like, is somebody just gonna get kidnapped and have that happen?

[Alaina]

Imagine delivering pizzas in this place.

[Ash]

Oh, I just wouldn't. I'd be like, well, I. I'll work here and I'll make the pizza, but you are not sending my ass.

[Alaina]

I'll do whatever you need in this pizza shop. And I will not be going out on the street. Yeah.

[Ash]

I'll cle toilets.

[Alaina]

Poor people who, like, literally. That's their income.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

And they're now having to be like, cool. I guess I just put my life on the line.

[Ash]

Yeah. Deliver.

[Alaina]

Which I shouldn't have to be doing. Yeah. That sucks.

[Ash]

Scary.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So just days after Brian well's death, reporters descended on Yuri. Of course, people are like, what the. Like, we got to get some kind of story out of this.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And I mean, it's a story in and of itself. Himself. A lot of them focused on Brian Will's co workers and his family members, which is up. Maybe give them like a minute to grief.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But a reporter and a photographer for the Eerie Times News decided to go out to the address on Peach street where Brian had been sent for the pizza delivery, which was pretty smart. I don't know why. It just immediately made me think of Gail Weathers and Kenny.

[Alaina]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

Just like taking a different route. You know what I mean?

[Alaina]

She would do that.

[Ash]

Yeah. At first, it didn't really seem like there was a lot to be seen out by the Transmission tower in that whole area. But just as they were about to leave, the reporter spotted a man just standing in his front yard A few feet from the tower. And they were like, there's a story there.

[Alaina]

This also reminds me of the reporter and the photographer from hell house, llc, who Go back in. Yep. Yeah. Yep.

[Ash]

So the man that they saw standing in his yard was bill rothstein, A local handyman and a lifelong resident of erie. He didn't really take much notice of the heavy police presence and obvious investigation taking place just a few yards from his house. He seemed pretty unbothered by it. Yeah, he's got his own stuff, you know, he's vibing. He didn't seem to know anything about Brian wells either, but he was happy to talk to the reporter. He even offered to take them on a little tour of the area around the tower.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

He said, these are the trees. These are the houses.

[Alaina]

He said the ground.

[Ash]

This is peach street.

[Alaina]

Yep.

[Ash]

That's the tower.

[Alaina]

If you look up, there's sky here.

[Ash]

This is my yard. It's my fence.

[Alaina]

It's crazy.

[Ash]

After about 15 minutes, when he had run out of things to say, the reporter and the photographer went on their way. The eerie times news reporter probably assumed that that would be the first and last time that he would ever talk to or hear of that.

[Alaina]

Wouldn't assume that.

[Ash]

You might after just after that quick old tour. But less than a month later, Bill's name came up again, this time under very different circumstances.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Ash]

So on September 20, 2003, Bill Rothstein called 911 and told the dispatcher, at 8645 Peach street, in the garage, there is a frozen body. It's in the freezer.

[Alaina]

Bill, I love.

[Ash]

There's a frozen body. It's in the freezer.

[Alaina]

He was like, just to be clear.

[Ash]

It's a little redundant, babe.

[Alaina]

To be clear. It is in a freezer.

[Ash]

It's in the freezer.

[Alaina]

What? Bill? What have you gotten into, Bill?

[Ash]

Well, the address. What have you found? So he gave that address, okay. Like it wasn't his own, but it sure was his own.

[Alaina]

That's his fucking house. Yeah, Bill.

[Ash]

He said, go to this address, and you'll find a body in the freezer. By the way, it's my fucking address, Bill.

[Alaina]

What?

[Ash]

Except he didn't say the last part. Part. So they were dispatched to his house, where they discovered, in fact, a body in the freezer.

[Alaina]

Was it frozen? Yes. Yeah.

[Ash]

Can you believe it?

[Alaina]

I can't.

[Ash]

It was the body of James rhoden in Bill's. Own chest freezer, just like he said. So he was arrested right then and there on suspicion of murder.

[Alaina]

Bill, you got to come with us.

[Ash]

Yeah, they said, you're coming with us, buddy.

[Alaina]

Thank you so much for letting us know about this, but you got to come with us.

[Ash]

Yeah. So Bill was like, listen, that guy is totally in my freezer. Like I. Like I said, dead. Did not kill him, though. I have. I have nothing to do with his death. Who among us, who hasn't found themselves.

[Alaina]

There, among us has not found a body in their own chest freezer that.

[Ash]

They didn't murder and had to say.

[Alaina]

Guys, I didn't do that.

[Ash]

Wasn't me.

[Alaina]

I know. This is my freezer. I don't know how he got there.

[Ash]

Babe, if it's in your house and it's in your freezer, that's now your problem.

[Alaina]

That's your problem.

[Ash]

Like in your problem. Exactly. That's your. You're responsible for that. So he said, no, I did not kill James Rhoden, but I did participate in the COVID up of his merchant. He said. He said that fact had been tormenting him since the moment he agreed to hide the body at his house five weeks earlier. Oh, you have had a body in your freezer. My guy. Scratch that guy. A guy for over a month, Bill. And you just called. How much was it really, really tormenting you?

[Alaina]

Bill? What's that about? Oh, Bill, Bill.

[Ash]

Who are you friends with? Bill.

[Alaina]

Bill.

[Ash]

So he said he.

[Alaina]

I was rooting for Bill. I was too, given his little tour. Yeah.

[Ash]

So this next part's really sad. He said that he was contemplating suicide and he even went as far as writing a suicide note, but that he changed his mind and he decided to turn himself in instead.

[Alaina]

I think that is a good idea.

[Ash]

So in their search of his home, investigators did in fact find Bill's suicide note on his desk. Written in black marker, the note contained repeated apologies. It identified the body in the freezer as James wrote it and insisted that he himself, Bill, had nothing to do with the death. And it was basically everything that he told police when he was arrested. But what was much more interesting than all the stuff that Bill had already told the police was the note's opening disclaimer, which read, this has nothing to do with the Wells case. Referring to Brian Wells. Why the. Would the dead body in your freezer have anything to do with the man who was killed in an explosion after robbing a bank?

[Alaina]

Did you just tattle on yourself? Like what? Period? What. What's that? Like what's That's. Why would you say that? Why the.

[Ash]

Would you ever say that?

[Alaina]

They would have never in a million years. Those two things in a. There's nothing that would make you connect those two things except for location.

[Ash]

Like I said, this was the last zebras.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like I've said before, like, sure.

[Alaina]

Location could maybe make them be like, whoa, weird. Like, Peach street is really fucking popping off over here.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

Like. Like that could be a thing. Yeah.

[Ash]

Peachtree is wily.

[Alaina]

But, like, let them do that. Let them be like, whoa, Peach street is.

[Ash]

You know what we shouldn't say? Never in a million years. But, like, it would have taken at least a little longer.

[Alaina]

It would have taken a. And I just don't know why you would hand them. Hand them that. Which, again, I don't know what this has to do with anything, but it's weird to point that out.

[Ash]

It's weird. So in the days that followed, Bill explained his connection and how James Rhoden had come to be in his freezer. According to him, he got a call from his ex girlfriend, Marjorie Diehl Armstrong Young, whose face I woke up to many nights in 2018.

[Alaina]

That's her face. Okay.

[Ash]

He got a call from her in mid August, and she frantically asked for his help. She alleged that she had gotten into a very heated argument over money with her boyfriend at the time, James Rhoden, and that in the process of that argument, she had shot him in the back and killed him. So she offered Bill $2,000 to help her get rid of James's body and the gun. And Bill said, let's go.

[Alaina]

You got. You gotta not do that.

[Ash]

$2,000 is not enough money. Like, I. Yeah, that's a lot of money. I'm not saying it's not a lot of money to hide a body in your freezer and get rid of a gun.

[Alaina]

When someone calls you, especially an ex, and says you broke up for a reason, I just killed my current partner.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

Will you help me cover this up? The answer is always no.

[Ash]

You don't even have to answer. The answer is dead air. Click.

[Alaina]

One, don't answer the phone when your ex calls. That's a really good tip.

[Ash]

And you can change their name in your phone to don't answer.

[Alaina]

You can do that. And then two, if you do by chance answer and they say, hey, I just murdered my current partner. Will you please help me fix that? You say, no, thank you. And then you just click.

[Ash]

In your version, you're polite about it.

[Alaina]

Yeah. Say, I don't think you should. They're a murderer now. So, like, you should be like, no, thank you. Little polite no, thank you.

[Ash]

Like, I do the. I do the. The click. And then I'd go arm. My system.

[Alaina]

Yeah, that's a no.

[Ash]

My system, my security.

[Alaina]

No, thank. Thank you so much for thinking of me.

[Ash]

Hope you're doing well.

[Alaina]

I've got a lot on my plate right now. All the best with that, and I wish you luck.

[Ash]

My freezer is full of yummies.

[Alaina]

You hang it up and you call 911 and you say, oh, that's the other thing.

[Ash]

You know, that Bill had to, like, take out some TV dinners. Yeah, it's up.

[Alaina]

That's the thing.

[Ash]

It's fucked up.

[Alaina]

That's a lot for an ex.

[Ash]

$2,000.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Not worth it.

[Alaina]

This is up.

[Ash]

Real up, this whole thing.

[Alaina]

All of it.

[Ash]

So Bill. Bill said he had finally decided to go to the policeman. Just a few days earlier, Marjorie suggested to him that they use an ice crusher to dismember James Rhoden's body.

[Alaina]

I. I mean, you give an inch, they're gonna ask for a mile. And you know what?

[Ash]

You did give an inch.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So.

[Alaina]

So.

[Ash]

So it turned out that this was not the first time the police in Erie had come across Marjorie dale Armstrong. In 1984, she was arrested for shooting and killing her then boyfriend, Robert Thomas. Completely different guy. Yeah.

[Alaina]

What the.

[Ash]

At the time, she claimed that he was being physically and sexually abusive toward her and that she shot him in self defense. And four years later, she was acquitted of murder and she got probation for carrying an unlicensed firearm.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Ash]

It turned out that James Rhoden's death wasn't Bill Rothstein's first association with killing either.

[Alaina]

Oh, my.

[Ash]

In 1970, Peachtree really does go crazy.

[Alaina]

I was gonna say Peach Street.

[Ash]

What an unassuming name. Yeah, they should name it like Killer Street.

[Alaina]

Rothstein Street.

[Ash]

Nutso Street.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Pop off street.

[Alaina]

Poop street.

[Ash]

Poop street. No TV dinners here. Street. So, in 1977, Bill played a similar role in the murder of local Erie newspaper printer William Berry. In that case, Rothstein provided the gun that was used in the shooting and gave Barry's killer, Louis Alezi, a ride home from the scene of the murder.

[Alaina]

He's getting himself. Yeah. Sticky. It is sticky situation.

[Ash]

It is sticky. Two years later, Bill was granted immunity in exchange for his testimony against Alessi, who was ended up being sentenced to 10 years for third degree murder. Lead investigator Dominic DePaolo told reporters, you would think that someone who was involved in a homicide years ago Would have learned his lesson. But for whatever reason, it looks like this guy didn't.

[Alaina]

Apparently not.

[Ash]

That's pretty much what you just said.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So two days after Bill was arrested this most recent time, police picked up Marjorie Dale Armstrong.

[Alaina]

Wrong.

[Ash]

And charged her with the murder of James Rhoden. A quick check of their records revealed that Marjorie had actually filed a protection from abuse order against James Rhoden about a month earlier, and a hearing had been scheduled. So in her defense, she claimed that she had nothing to do with James Rhoden's death and she blamed it on Bill. So now we're pointing fingers at each other.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Ash]

According to her, she said she got home on the afternoon of August 13th and she found her boyfriend. Died.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Dead.

[Ash]

She said, I never touched the body. I never saw it. Don't even know what it looks like. He did it all.

[Alaina]

Whoa. Like you.

[Ash]

You probably do know what he looks like, though, because he was your boyfriend.

[Alaina]

A flip flop.

[Ash]

Yeah. So despite her repeated claims of innocence, the evidence and Bill Rothstein's statement to police obviously implicated Marjorie Dale Armstrong in James Rhoden's death. And by January 2004, she was indicted on charges of homicide, aggravated assault and abusive accomplishments. Corpse. Among a few other things.

[Alaina]

Whoa.

[Ash]

So in the months that followed, the defense and the prosecution argued back and forth over all the pre trial motions and all that stuff until the trial date was finally set for mid January 2005. But just days before the trial, Marjorie Dale Armstrong surprised everybody by accepting a plea deal where she would plead guilty to third degree murder and abuse of a corpse in exchange for a sentence of seven to 20 years. Years. And in her confession, she alleged that, quote, her mental illness had prevented her from understanding that her actions were wrong.

[Alaina]

Okay. Yeah.

[Ash]

So, like I mentioned a minute ago, James Rhoden was unfortunately not the only man who Marjorie Dale Armstrong had killed. In fact, according to journalist Rich Shapiro Deal Armstrong was one of Erie's most notorious figures, well known for her string of dead lovers.

[Alaina]

Whoa.

[Ash]

In addition to James Rhoden and Robert Thomas, who I told you she did kill, she alleges in self defense. Marjorie's former husband, Richard Armstrong, also died under suspicious circumstances in 1988. Officially, his cause of death was cerebral hemorrhage and was ruled accidental. But according to Shapiro, Richard Armstrong had a head injury when he arrived at the hospital. But the case was never forwarded to the coroner's office.

[Alaina]

The was wrong with that hospital. I don't know.

[Ash]

Man.

[Alaina]

Man, you forward that, you gotta. That's wild.

[Ash]

Yeah. So the deaths connected to Marjorie were not the only things that made her notorious and eerie. As far back as high school, she had a reputation for being incredibly intelligent. She was a very smart woman, but she was wildly unstable. She did have a lot of mental health issues. Court records indicate that she had been diagnosed with bipolar in the past and that when she was manic, she would demonstrate very strange behavior. And one incident just before the shooting of Robert Thomas In 1984, investigators were called to her house for a well being check. And when they entered the home. You will never be prepared for this information. I just need you to know when they entered the home, they, and this is not exaggeration, they found 400 pounds of butter and more than 700 pounds of cheese in the house. Which sounds awesome, except that all of it was rotting.

[Alaina]

Sit with that. Sit with that. It was how you said, which sounds.

[Ash]

I love butter and cheese. I'm a thick girl. Rotting. No thanks.

[Alaina]

400.

[Ash]

Where does one even purchase 400 pounds of butter?

[Alaina]

I do love butter.

[Ash]

I bought like three boxes of butter the other day to bake and I felt cuckoo. I was like, ooh, this person's. My instacart driver's gonna be like, damn bitch. 400 pounds.

[Alaina]

I don't even know what that looks like.

[Ash]

I can't conceive of that. Like, where do you clip of that 700 pounds of cheese? I can sort of conceive of because those big ass cheese wheels, do you.

[Alaina]

Think that's what they are? I don't know, just wheels of cheese.

[Ash]

I kind of hope so. I mean it's all rotting. So obviously it wasn't all in the refrigerator. Obviously that Bill didn't have room in his fucking freezer back then. No, it doesn't have room for butter and cheese, but has room for a dead body.

[Alaina]

Holy shit. Yeah, that's. I mean that's also like in all seriousness, that's also a very clear indication that something is widely awry here.

[Ash]

Very much so.

[Alaina]

People don't just have 400 pounds of butter and 700 pounds of cheese rotting in their house.

[Ash]

House. You know what's crazy is somebody in the comments will argue with you about that. Yes, probably, but that's a fact.

[Alaina]

But I do think that is a very clear indication that something is off.

[Ash]

I think so too, personally. So just a few months later, Marjorie was arrested for the shooting death of Thomas. So obviously like she wasn't in a. Like we laugh about the butter and the cheese, but it in all seriousness, like you just said something was going on and there was a clear path Exactly. So during the investigation of Thomas's death, Marjorie was evaluated by a psychiatrist who described her as paranoid and narcissistic. And in that case, she actually had to be evaluated seven times before she was deemed fit to aid in her own defense during the trial.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

Apparently she really wanted to. So throughout the investigation into James Rhoden's death. Now we're. We're back to where we started a little. Detectives hadn't forgotten about Bill Rothstein's suicide. Now note and the opening claim that Roden's murder had, quote, nothing to do with the Brian Wells case.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

They were like, why did he write that? Why would somebody open a suicide note by declaring emphatically that they had nothing to do with a murder that they were never suspected of committing in the.

[Alaina]

First place and apparently didn't really know much about anyways? According to that journalist.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Alaina]

When they spoke to them.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

Seemed like he didn't really know anything about it.

[Ash]

Or is he just a really good actor?

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So unfortunately, by that time, Bill had passed away from lymphoma, so he wasn't going to be able to provide any insight into the unsolved death of Brian Wells. But Marjorie Dale Armstrong was. And as it turned out, she was willing to talk for a price.

[Alaina]

Well, let's hear it, Marjorie.

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[Ash]

So in the summer of 2005, not long after Marjorie started serving her son sentence for the James Rhoden murder, FBI agents were still working the Wells Collarbomb case. And we're like, what the happened here?

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And they got a call from Eerie detectives who were wrapping up loose ends on the road and murder. Still, it was during one of their post conviction conversations with Marjorie that she casually brought up Bill's suicide and his suicide note. According to Marjorie, Bill had lied when he said that James Rhoden's death had nothing to do with Brian. Well, Wells. Actually, she said it had everything to do with it. And if they were willing to arrange for a transfer for her, she would tell them all about it. Oh, she wanted to go to a minimum security facility.

[Alaina]

Excuse me.

[Ash]

She said, if you move me over there, I'll tell you everything. So according to her, Brian Wells. And remember, this is according to her, who is convicted of a crime and struggles with mental health. Yes, according to her, her Brian Wells was not a victim in the collar bombing case. He was also one of the perpetrators. She claimed that the entire plot to rob the PNC bank of $250,000 had actually been masterminded by Bill Rothstein himself.

[Alaina]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Himself. I just stuttered. Or not stuttered, lisped. He also, she said, built the cane gun and the collar bomb. When investigators searched Bill's house, they did end up finding several items that somebody might use in a bomb construction. Oh, so that was interesting. But to hear Marjorie tell it, it was Bill and Brian Wells who were behind the entire scheme. And all she had done was just give them some kitchen timers to use in the explosive. She was helping a couple of pals out.

[Alaina]

I just don't understand. Yeah. Why that makes sense for Brian.

[Ash]

It doesn't. Okay, so what Marjorie didn't know at the time of her meeting with the FBI was that they already suspected her of being involved in that entire plot. The bomb collar plot. In previous weeks, they had actually met with multiple informants, including Bill's former roommate, Floyd Stockton, and his ex wife, Janet Paunsford, who actually kept detailed notes about their interactions with Marjorie. Oh, so like Marjorie. Floyd Stockton had also known Bill for decades. And they were all a part of this, like, group of very, like, local, anti social, very smart, intellectual people. Okay. Like, it was like, kind of a.

[Alaina]

Group of outcasts who were really smart.

[Ash]

Like, genius level smart, who, like, hung out every now and again. So by the time Marjorie was convicted, Floyd Stockton had also just started serving his own prison sentence after he was found guilty of sexually assaulting a teenager who had developmental disabilities. So he's disgusting. And also, keep in mind, he was talking because he was looking for anything that was going to lessen his sentiment.

[Alaina]

Sentence. What a group of. Truly, truly.

[Ash]

And, like, I hate sitting here and saying that they're this, like, intellectual group of people because, like, obviously not because they're doing the things that they're doing, but it's like. But they're intellectual on a different level. Like, I'm not.

[Alaina]

They are able to comprehend complex concepts.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Alaina]

For certain topics.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Alaina]

But they are obviously not able to understand the difference between being. Well, they do. That's the thing.

[Ash]

I think they do understand.

[Alaina]

They're just bad.

[Ash]

Exactly. But I just don't want anybody to think I'm crazy.

[Alaina]

Bad people, unfortunately, can be smart, and that's just the way this is.

[Ash]

So Floyd Stockton wasn't the only member of Marjorie's bizarre social circle who found themselves in trouble with the law and wanted to exchange information for freedom or, like, a lesser sentence.

[Alaina]

So they're all just gross.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah. And there's more. Not long after investigators spoke with Floyd and Janet, another witness came forward with what would prove to be some of the most important testimony in this entire case.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Ash]

It was late in 2005 at this point, and Marjorie was already talking to the FBI when agents got a call about a recently arrested crack dealer named Kenneth Barnes. This all just goes crazy.

[Alaina]

I was. Is there anything that's not in this case?

[Ash]

I don't know. No, no. I tried to come up with answers, but there was already 400 pounds of butter.

[Alaina]

So, yeah, there was. There's really nothing you can point to.

[Ash]

So now we're talking about a recently arrested crack dealer named Kenneth Barnes.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Ash]

So, like Bill Rothstein and Floyd Stockton, Kenneth Barnes had kind of talent, a talent with mechanics and had worked as a repairman for many years, but hadn't been able to maintain a steady job. So he turned to selling drugs to support him himself. Apparently, he had spoken too loudly and too often about the PNC bank robbery. And after he was arrested on drug charges, his Brother in law reported him to the police on suspicion of murder.

[Alaina]

Oh.

[Ash]

Now, threatened with more jail time for the murder of Brian Wells, Kenneth Barnes caved and agreed to give the D. A. A detailed account of the entire plan that had to do with the pizza bomb collar in exchange for a lighter sentence.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

This is deep. It really is.

[Ash]

And it involves so many different players.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So the story that Kenneth Barnes told the FBI about the bomb collar plot would have been unbelievable, but it kind of corroborated the evidence and what they already suspected about the case. Obviously, not every piece of it. Like, who knows if every piece of it is true or is not, because there's so many people involved here talking that are talking and looking for something.

[Alaina]

Trying to save their own ass.

[Ash]

Me. But that's. I just have to tell you what they said.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

So, according to Kenneth Barnes, Marjorie had masterminded the entire bomb plot in. In order to get a large sum of money, which she planned to use to pay a hitman to murder her father. So when I said the reason at the center of this is just so absolutely unbelievable. Yeah.

[Alaina]

She set this whole thing up. Allegedly. And to hire guy died.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

So that she could hire a hitman.

[Ash]

To commit another murder. Yes.

[Alaina]

Whoa. Yeah. Okay.

[Ash]

Because she worried that her dad was spending his own fortune too fast and that there wasn't going to be anything left for her when he died. So she ought to just kill him now. She felt. I'm speechless.

[Alaina]

I don't know, man.

[Ash]

So Barnes, he said he didn't know the details about that plan.

[Alaina]

Who does? But I don't even think she does.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. And he didn't really know all of the details about the pizza bomb plan. But what he did know was that Marjorie had roped the other man into the plan, basically by just, like, bullying them until they all agreed to help her.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

Which I do believe.

[Alaina]

I mean, yeah.

[Ash]

I woke up in the night to her face many times, and I just believe that she could bully people into doing some crazy shit.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So according to Barnes, and again, according to him, Brian Wells had only agreed to wear the bomb collar because he thought it wasn't real.

[Alaina]

Real. Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

He also alleged that Marjorie had murdered James Rhoden because he knew about the plot and he was going to tell about the robbery.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Ash]

So it's all kind of becoming connected.

[Alaina]

The Brian Wells thing still isn't adding up to me, though, because I'm like, he. They said he seemed genuinely anxious and scared at the end of that. Like, this is gonna happen if he didn't think that was real. Why was he freaking out?

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alaina]

You know what I mean? It's all. But I don't know.

[Ash]

Again, it's all very strange. And. And that's why I'm saying, like, take what they're saying with a grain of salt, because we don't know. At the end of the day, like, Brian Wells isn't here to say, and he died a horrific death.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So, like, I don't want to speculate.

[Alaina]

Speculate if he was part of it.

[Ash]

Yeah. But the next time. Investigators met with Marjorie in February 2006, now she had her attorney by her side, fully expecting to make a deal with the state, because she has no idea that now all these people are coming forward and being like, marjorie did it. Yeah. I think like, she bull for far too long.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Instead of being offered a deal, though, she was informed that she was now being indicted for the murder of Brian Wells and several other crimes associated with the bomb collar plot. Oops. According to Rich Shapiro, when Marjorie was first informed of the indictment, she went, quote, ballistic, slamming her fist on a conference table and cursing out the agents and her own lawyer.

[Alaina]

Whoa.

[Ash]

But that didn't stop her from continuing to fill in the gaps in Kenneth Barnes account of the robbery. And she kind of spilled everything. Oh, for hours, she went over the entire plan, telling agents where she was on the day and even offering to take them on a tour of the area to point out the logistics of the plan. So she, like, lost it on them and then was like, fine, I'll tell you everything.

[Alaina]

I'll tell you everything.

[Ash]

Like, I think she was trying to say, like, she wasn't.

[Alaina]

Well, she wanted to control the narrative.

[Ash]

At this point precisely because, remember, she's also a diagnosed narcissist. So on July 11, 2007, U.S. attorney Mary Beth Buchanan held a press conference to announce that after four years of intense investigation and more than a thousand interviews, at that point, they had finally broken the case of the collar bomber. In her press conference, Buchanan identified Marjorie Deal Armstrong as the mastermind of the bomb plot. And the motive, she said, was simple greed. Lead ATF Agent Mark Potter told reporters the investigation was about greedy that created fear and resulted in death. The brutality and utter lack of respect for life displayed by the indicted is rarely seen outside of a movie screen.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Which is very true. Now, probably most shocking to everybody at the press conference was that contrary to what they had assumed originally, investigators now believed that Brian Wells was not just a victim of the bomb plot, but also a participant they were told that he agreed to wear the bomb collar and rob the bank with the understanding that the bomb was fake and that the scavenger hunt that had perplexed the investigators was just a distraction to fool them and make it seem like Brian wasn't involved.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Ash]

But unfortunately, they said by the time he realized he had been betrayed by his co conspirators, it was too late. That's their theory. I'm not saying that's mine, but it's.

[Alaina]

Like, have they even proved, like, a real connection between Brian Wells and these people?

[Ash]

Sort of.

[Alaina]

It's like. It just doesn't feel like there was a strong enough.

[Ash]

Enough. I haven't gotten fully to it, so, you know. Yeah. Well, later that year, Kenneth Barnes pleaded guilty to conspiracy and weapons charges related to the robbery and the death of Brian Wells. And he ended up getting a sentence of 45 years in prison. So I was like, you really thought you were going to get a lot of your lighter sentence, but really, here we are. He did agree to testify against Marjorie, though, in exchange for a lighter sentence. But before Marjorie could go to trial, her lawyer filed a motion for a hearing to determine her competency, arguing that she was unfit to assist in her own defense. Which I was like, girl, we've been through this before. Why are you still trying to assist in yourself?

[Alaina]

Just don't do it.

[Ash]

I honestly think it was to delay the trial.

[Alaina]

Yeah. In late two, she's a diagnosed narcissist, so she can do it.

[Ash]

Precisely. So in late 2008, now she was transferred to a federal medical center in Carswell, Texas, where she underwent a four month period of observation and evaluation. In her initial evaluation, doctors at the medical center indicated that she was, quote, not cooperative with questioning, engaged in perpetual talking, complained, and was grandiose and paranoid.

[Alaina]

Delightful. Yeah.

[Ash]

In the months that followed, her behavior and her symptoms did not seem to get any better. She was frequently described as manic and oppositional. She refused to take her medication. She repeatedly insisted that she was not mentally ill. And other inmates also found themselves in conflict with her all the time.

[Alaina]

Time.

[Ash]

And she was repeatedly reported to the hospital staff for being a, quote, bully, hostile and mean person.

[Alaina]

I buy that.

[Ash]

I mean, it literally fits with exactly what everyone else was saying, that she basically bullied them into this. And also the entire motivation for this was that she wanted to hire a hitman to kill her father because he.

[Alaina]

Was spending his money.

[Ash]

So I do believe she's probably a mean person.

[Alaina]

She's probably pretty unreasonable.

[Ash]

Probs. So by the end of her observation period at the end of four months. Months. Marjorie had become somewhat more compliant. But that, I mean, that's not really saying much. But in her final evaluation, she was diagnosed again with bipolar disorder and personality disorder with borderline paranoid and narcissistic traits. One psychiatrist wrote A review of Ms. Armstrong's records indicate pervasive and long standing characterological deficits in her ability to relate and function in social and personal contact contexts.

[Alaina]

Damn.

[Ash]

Yeah. So it's a lot.

[Alaina]

That's a lot.

[Ash]

Yeah. She definitely struggles with her mental health in a big way. But based on the reports from the doctor at the medical center, a federal judge in Pennsylvania concluded that she was definitely not mentally fit to stand trial.

[Alaina]

Which sounds like it.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's the thing. Like, I kind of agree with that. Agreed. So in the two years that followed, she was evaluated multiple times until she was finally deemed mentally sound to be able to stand. Stand Trial. Trial. But by that time, she had been diagnosed with glandular cancer, and a doctor estimated that she only had between three and seven years to live.

[Alaina]

Whoa.

[Ash]

So despite that grim prognosis, the prosecutor decided to move forward with the trial. And the date was set for October 12, 2010.

[Alaina]

Yeah, people don't give a. Yeah, people died.

[Ash]

Yeah, you still need to be prosecuted. So the trial was obviously as sensational and dramatic as you would expect from a story that begins with a bomb collar and a bank robbery. Some of the most damning testimony presented at the trial came from seven witnesses who testified that Marjorie had revealed various facts about the plot both before and after Brian Wells death. To them, the prosecution star witness was Kenneth Barnes. And he told the entire story, offering answers to the question that still remained unanswered. Was Brian Wells truly a participant here? But again, we're relying on him who's looking for a lesser sentence.

[Alaina]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So according to Barnes, all of Marjorie's co conspirators have been roped into the plot with the promise of money. But unlike the others, Brian Wells was not motivated by greed. In the months leading up to the robbery, Kenneth said that Wells was in a relationship with a sex worker who he supplied with crack in exchange for sex. However, just a few weeks before the robbery, Kenneth said that Wells found himself in debt to a crack dealer and was desperately in need of money. And it was only because of that debt that he agreed to participate.

[Alaina]

Okay, that brings a little more, like.

[Ash]

A little more connection, a little more.

[Alaina]

And you can sit there and be like, okay, that sounds more like just from his characterization that, like, he wouldn't just be like, yeah, I just want a shit ton of money for no reason. You know, like, desperation seems like the only way I would even slightly buy that. He was a willing participant.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

But even still, and even at that point, was he a willing participant? Participant. Does desperation count as a. Well, as being a willing participant?

[Ash]

Well, great question. As for his ultimate victimization, Kenneth Barnes explained that on the day of the robbery, Brian Wells realized the bomb was real and he tried to back out of the plan and ran from the house, but he was chased down by Bill Rothstein and the bomb collar was locked on his neck at gunpoint.

[Alaina]

Yeah, that's not a will.

[Ash]

He was a full blown own victim.

[Alaina]

In all of this. Yeah.

[Ash]

Which if that's even the case.

[Alaina]

If that's the case, that's horrific. Yeah.

[Ash]

So throughout most of the testimony, Marjorie could be seen whispering to her lawyer. She frequently interrupted the testimony, just shouting liar at anybody who said anything unflattering about her. But when it was time for her to take the stand in her own defense, she was equally combative. Rich Shapiro wrote, for five and a half hours over two days, she used the witness stand up her stage. She ridiculed her own lawyer. She belittled the prosecutor. She cried, she yelled e. During the testimony, the judge actually reprimanded her more than 50 times with, like, no effect.

[Alaina]

Like, why are we still allowing her to speak?

[Ash]

Yeah. But in the end, she did herself no favors by taking. Exactly. The jury deliberated for 11 hours before emerging to find her guilty of armed bank robbery, conspiracy, and using a destructive device in a crime of violence. And finally, in late February 2011, she was sentenced to life in prison for the death of Brian Wells. And she got an additional 30 years for the bank robbery. When she was asked for a statement, she told reporters, my heart goes out to the family. The true killers are still out there.

[Alaina]

Oh, you.

[Ash]

You piece of. Yeah, you off. So Marjorie and her defense team obviously appealed her sentence sentence to the Third Circuit Court of Appeals, arguing that she wasn't competent to stand trial in the first place. But the court ended up siding with the lower court, which just affirmed her sentence. Yeah, ultimately, she really didn't end up spending most of her life in prison or much of her life in prison. On April 4, 2017, at the age of 68, she died of breast cancer at the Federal Medical center in Carswell, Texas. And in an odd conclusion to an already very bizarre case, which we've went through almost every detail of today day, right after she died, a New York man Named Mark Marvin came forward saying he was her common law husband and argued in a federal court that she was not dead.

[Alaina]

Humans aren't. Okay. We're not all right?

[Ash]

And he said, she's not dead. But if she is, then I want her remains released to me because I am her common law husband who came out of absolutely no.

[Alaina]

Somewhere. His. Which is it?

[Ash]

Though his request was denied.

[Alaina]

It was.

[Ash]

I can't. I can't imagine why.

[Alaina]

I just like the. She's not dead, but give me your body. Yeah. Which is it?

[Ash]

Okie dokie.

[Alaina]

You gotta pick a lane, babe.

[Ash]

All righty.

[Alaina]

You gotta pick a lane.

[Ash]

If anybody has watched the Real Housewives of Chicago, it's. Or not Real Housewives, Mob wives Chicago. It's giving that.

[Alaina]

Okay.

[Ash]

So after testifying against Marjorie Kenneth Barnes, sentence was cut in half.

[Alaina]

Half.

[Ash]

And he's currently serving his sentence at the federal Medical center in Butner, North Carolina. That's hilarious to me. And is scheduled to be released in September of 2027.

[Alaina]

Oh, okay, Kenneth.

[Ash]

So good luck.

[Alaina]

Wow.

[Ash]

Wow. The most complex, interwoven, full of cheese and butter story I've ever heard. And at the end of the day, I believe that no matter what the real story is, Because I don't think we ever got the real story of Brian Wells involvement. He's a victim.

[Alaina]

Tragic, tragic, tragic. It breaks my fucking heart. No matter what happened there.

[Ash]

Horrible way to go.

[Alaina]

Yeah. Cause I just. Nothing about that feels like a willing participant, no matter what the situation was. It sounds horrific in that. Oh, and I hate that. Like, that poor guy's last moment. Moments are on film.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

And him begging them to take that thing off of him.

[Ash]

It never should have been filmed. And it never should have been filmed.

[Alaina]

It's very upsetting. And I remember when this documentary came out, the Evil Genius 1 on Netflix.

[Ash]

That preview.

[Alaina]

That preview. I was like, I don't know.

[Ash]

I never watched.

[Alaina]

I never watched the documentary. But I remember being so. Like, what the fuck is this about? Because I was like, there's this guy with a bomb on him. Then they show this woman on the thing, but there's like, two different pictures of her. Her.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alaina]

But now it looks like it was like one of her. Younger one of her. Yep. Like, more recent.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Alaina]

And I remember being like, I don't know what this is about. I meant to watch it, but I just never did.

[Ash]

I just couldn't bring myself to watch it because I knew I. I had already seen that clip, I think on like, one of those, like, countdown shows or something. Like that. And I was like, I just can't.

[Alaina]

I don't want to watch it again. Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

But what a gnarly.

[Alaina]

That's a wild story.

[Ash]

Me.

[Alaina]

It is.

[Ash]

And it just involves so many people. And how do those kind of people find each other?

[Alaina]

That's the thing. Nothing good came out of that.

[Ash]

Oh, let me get a quick fun fact, though. Okay, guys, I found a fun fact about peeing because Elena just had to take a potty break.

[Alaina]

Oh, my God. I just drank an entire thing of water during this. Like, every time made of water. And I thought I was dying. I was like, I have to pee so bad.

[Ash]

Nothing like the feeling, though, of when you do that.

[Alaina]

Oh, I. Feeling new.

[Ash]

Well, here's the fun fact. Fact. It's kind of ridiculous, but it's wild that I found that. As you were leaving the bathroom. The male giraffe will continuously headbutt the female in the bladder until she urinates. The male then tastes the urine to determine if the female is ovulating, and if so, the merriment begins.

[Alaina]

I don't know what I expected, but.

[Ash]

It was not it. That's what I got from Random factgenerator.

[Alaina]

I mean, I guess they don't have, like, Oura rings or, like, apple watches to tell you when you're ovulating. So they're like, got to do with the. The old fashioned way.

[Ash]

Is that the old fashioned way? He tastes her piss to see if she's ovulating.

[Alaina]

First of all, he bullies her into peeing.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's rude.

[Alaina]

Which at first, when it was like, poking her until she pees. I'm like, well, maybe she's like, me. And she just, like, doesn't pee.

[Ash]

Holds it.

[Alaina]

So he's just trying to be like, you don't want to get a kidney infection, babe.

[Ash]

He says, I want to have calves with you, so I'mma pokey till you pee and I can taste your pee.

[Alaina]

And see if I can impregnate you. I have never heard those words strung together.

[Ash]

And here we are, just like, peeing on sticks or checking our aura rings to see if we're ovul.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Holy.

[Ash]

A different life led.

[Alaina]

What a fun fact to end on. Thank you for that.

[Ash]

Well, we hope you keep listening.

[Alaina]

Yeah, we do. And we hope. We hope you keep it.

[Ash]

But it's so weird that you poke your wife and then taste her pest.

[Alaina]

To see if she's ovulating.

[Ash]

You're not a giraffe.

[Alaina]

But I mean, like, you're an adult. Do what you want to do with consent.

[Ash]

Kinky la.