The Unsolved Murders of Barry and Honey Sherman

Summary

Morbid Podcast Summary

Episode: The Unsolved Murders of Barry and Honey Sherman

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Date: August 3, 2026
Theme: A deep-dive into the chilling, unsolved case of the billionaire couple Barry and Honey Sherman, found dead in their Toronto home in 2017. The episode blends empathy, humor, and heavy research, exploring the crime scene, police missteps, and the web of potential suspects.

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Episode Overview

Ash and Alaina deliver a detailed, research-driven true crime episode about the infamous and still-unsolved double homicide of Barry and Honey Sherman. With their signature mix of wit and compassion, the hosts recount the disturbing discovery, question police theories, and delve into the couple's personal and business histories. The episode examines the shocking details, the investigation’s failures, and the complex web of connections Barry Sherman built as Canada’s most controversial pharma billionaire.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene & Discovery of the Bodies

• Timestamps: [14:10] – [21:33]

  • December 15, 2017, North York (Toronto): Two longtime house staff (cleaner and plant-care worker) arrive at the Shermans' home to find everything unusually tidy.
  • The real estate agent, Elise, attempts to show the house to buyers after failing to reach Barry or Honey.
  • Downstairs, she inadvertently discovers Barry and Honey by the pool in a "yoga-like position," mistaking it as an odd meditation.
  • Actual discovery: Both found fully dressed, sitting upright with jackets on, necks bound to the pool railing with leather belts—clearly deceased.
  • Initial confusion and delay: 90 minutes pass after discovery before contacting police, as the real estate agent first calls Honey’s sister for advice ([22:11]).

  "She managed to say, 'Call the police.' ... they were not meditating or doing yoga. Like, her gut was telling her they were dead." – Elena ([21:16])

2. Crime Scene & Early Theories

• Timestamps: [21:33] – [35:38]

  • No sign of forced entry; no valuables missing; cleaners had wiped away possible evidence as part of routine duties.
  • The strange, staged scene: Both victims’ coats pulled down, arms at their sides, Barry sitting peacefully, Honey with a facial injury.
  • Toronto police initially float the theory of a murder-suicide—unsupported by any evidence, but sensationalized in the press ([31:32]).
  • Public and family outrage ensues over this casual, unsupported theory.

  "From the moment the police got to the Sherman’s house, investigators appeared to treat the deaths with a pretty casual indifference that didn’t match the bizarre scene in the basement." – Elena ([34:31])

3. Autopsy Revelations & Investigation Evolution

• Timestamps: [35:38] – [41:22]

  • Autopsies (Dr. Michael Pickup) reveal key inconsistencies with murder-suicide:
    • Hyoid bones (throat) unbroken in both—surprising for strangulation/hanging.
    • Both victims likely bound at the wrists before death.
    • Staging too elaborate and complex for suicide; both died of ligature strangulation.
    • Timeline suggests staged scene, likely by professional(s).
  • January 2018: Deaths reclassified as homicides ([53:22]).

  "He was fairly confident that [Barry] had indeed been bound at the wrist, which further weakened the murder-suicide theory." – Elena ([39:18])

4. Barry & Honey: Personal & Business Backgrounds

• Timestamps: [41:22] – [55:54]

  • Barry Sherman: Orphaned young, driven academic star, takes over uncle’s pharma factory, founds Apotex (generic drugs giant), relentless in business, "charity royalty" in public but known for ruthless deal-making.
  • Honey Sherman: Born in a displaced persons camp post-WWII, beloved in Toronto's philanthropic circles, upbeat and social, deep community involvement, reportedly universally liked.

  "Barry Sherman would have made a perfect target for this. Kind of like a robbery. But... nothing in the house was missing." – Elena ([25:14])

  "Barry was actively involved in various legal battles... the problem wasn’t so much that investigators couldn’t find any leads… but everyone they talked to seemed unwilling or unable to provide anything of value." – Elena ([53:40])

5. Drug Wars, Business Enemies, and Conspiracy

• Timestamps: [55:54] – [64:36]

  • Barry’s business dealings: Courted lawsuits, made powerful enemies in pharma industry, maintained links to other risky interests (film, diamonds, horse racing).
  • The potential for revenge: Many motives among ex-employees, rivals, and even family (Winter cousins, who lost inheritance due to Barry’s business maneuvers).
  • Despite hundreds of interviews and hours of searching, little concrete evidence emerges.
  • Apotex’s legal complexity thwarts police access to company computers and private comms.

  "You got to have the longest list of enemies if you’re reaching billionaire status. That’s just how I feel." – Elena ([57:07])

  "Now the question was, had Barry angered one or more of those enemies to the extent that they sought revenge by doing something so heinous, killing him and his wife?" – Elena ([57:42])

6. Theories, Police Secrecy, and Ongoing Cold Trail

• Timestamps: [64:36] – [72:46]

  • By 2019, task force dwindles to just five detectives, colossal review of surveillance footage and documents leads nowhere.
  • New details unearthed by reporter Kevin Donovan (Maclean’s): Honey tried to call 911 during the attack, call failed.
  • Police file for total document sealing, citing risk that potential suspects might destroy evidence if details leaked.
  • By 2025, police admit to being “blind” but still claim to have knowledge that could solve the case.

  “According to Donovan, police won’t answer questions about this, but documents confirm police did conduct tests of the 911 service in relation to the Sherman investigation.” – Elena ([68:15])

  “Detective Dennis Yim is confident the case will be solved. He said, ‘I believe we have knowledge to solve this case.’ ... Unfortunately, for the time being how and when that day will come is anyone’s guess.” – Elena ([68:37])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the bizarre scene:
  • "He looks at him, that little douchebag for disrespecting his wife, and he says, 'I’ll knock your spark out.' I said, it got hot in my living room." – Ash ([05:46])
• On the lack of evidence:
  • "Outside of the bodies by the pool in the basement, nothing about the scene seemed unusual." – Elena ([25:14])
• On business ruthlessness:
  • “A billionaire driven to litigation less by money than something more primal. A sense of righteous certitude that propelled him to prevail at any cost.” – Maclean’s (quoted by Elena) ([56:08])
• On police approach:
  • “From the moment the police got to the Shermans’ house, investigators appeared to treat the deaths with a pretty casual indifference that didn’t match the bizarre scene in the basement.” – Elena ([34:31])
• On why it may never make sense:
  • "You’ll never be able to spend [that kind of money] in your lifetime or your family. That’s my biggest thing." – Elena ([57:34])
• Listener appreciation & transition:
  • "This is about appreciation." – Ash ([12:42])
  • "Let’s... How do you transition into a story? I don’t really know. So we’re just gonna go for it." – Elena ([12:22])

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Important Timelines & Timestamps

• [14:10] Discovery of tidy house; cleaners arrive
• [18:31] Realtor & buyers see the bodies staged by pool
• [21:33] Real confirmation the Shermans are dead; delay in calling police
• [24:00] Paramedics: rigor mortis gone, cause of death strangulation
• [28:38] First police press conference: "circumstances... suspicious"
• [31:32] Police leak murder-suicide as possible theory
• [35:38] Autopsy findings, case reclassified as homicide
• [56:08] Maclean’s exposé: Barry’s ruthlessness, enemy list
• [64:36] Investigation dwindles, police petition to keep docs sealed
• [68:04] Honey’s failed 911 call during attack
• [68:37] Police: "I believe we have knowledge to solve this case."
• [70:12] Cleaner’s schedule may have been factored into killer’s plan
• [71:08] Reflection on professionalism, business rival motives, frustrating dead ends

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Episode Tone and Takeaways

• Language & Style: True crime storytelling with characteristic Morbid warmth, dark humor, and empathy for victims' families. Both hosts balance chilling details with “a dash of comedy,” making heavy material accessible without disrespect.
• Takeaways:
  • The Sherman case exemplifies how wealth, secrecy, and complex business entanglements can stymie even high-profile murder investigations.
  • A shocking crime scene, professional "cleanliness," and a protracted, stymied police investigation led to an explosion of rumors and conspiracy theories.
  • Law enforcement secrecy (sometimes warranted) intensifies public frustration and suspicion.
  • The most likely theories involve either a sophisticated professional hit or an “inside job,” but no suspect or motive has ever been confirmed.
  • Family and public hope remains strong that the case will eventually be solved, though years have passed with little progress.

---

For Listeners: Why This Case Still Haunts

The unresolved deaths of the Shermans remain a source of frustration and fascination because of the intersection of vast wealth, mystery, and tantalizing but opaque clues. Ash and Alaina’s analysis underscores how privilege can both protect and taint a case—leaving nearly a decade of speculation in its wake.

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Memorable Closing

• Alaina: “Unfortunately, for the time being. How and when that day will come is anyone’s guess.”
• Ash: “Not so weird that this case doesn’t get solved, because I have a lot of questions and I would like answers, please.” ([72:44])

---

RECAP:

If you’re looking for a true crime story with twists at every turn, secretive police, a strangely meticulous crime scene, and more questions than answers, this episode is a must-listen—and a reminder that sometimes real mysteries go unsolved for years, no matter how high the profile.

Transcript

[Ash]

These long dog days of summer. I mean, we just made it through a heat wave. Mama was parched through this heat wave. I was hitting up Dunkin every single day. And I will continue to probably for the rest of my days, but especially this summer. Dunkin is helping everyone stay cool this summer with its lineup of refreshers. These drinks are packed with bold, fruity flavors and served ice cold. It's amazing. Dunkin Refreshers are the perfect afternoon pick me up. I like to start my morning with them personally, and then sometimes I go back for a second one because I'm just feeling crazy. They come in a variety of delicious flavors, including fan favorites mango pineapple and Strawberry dragon fruit. And then for a limited time, there's black cherry and there's pink pineapple. I'm going to tell you something right now and I It's a bold claim, let me tell you, but I stand behind it. Pink pineapple will change your life. It is so good. It has me feeling like I'm sitting in a pool. Resort side, just living honey. It's so yummy. Try your favorite flavor with green tea Sparkling Water lemonade or Dunkin's All New Limeade. I haven't tried the limeade yet, but I'm going to. Usually I get my drinks made with green tea and occasionally lemonade, but I do really like the green tea. Or, or if you don't want to build your own, try one of Dunkin's curated refreshers like the Cherry Lime Ricky or the ultimate Pink Daydream, the Cherry Lime Ricky.

[Elena]

Mmm.

[Ash]

Scrumptious. I could drink like three of these a day. They're so frump. Freaking yummy. Head to Dunkin today and find your favorite refresher. Dunkin Refreshers contain less than 1% fruit juice. Limited time offer. Chilling crime cases are mysterious, but finding coverage shouldn't be. With the State Farm Personal Price Plan, you have options and can personalize your plan to help create an affordable price so you can get back to cracking all of life's bigger cases. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price Plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Head to statefarm.com to get a quote. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Elena]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid.

[Ash]

It's more bodito. It is.

[Elena]

What's up, red? I'm tired.

[Ash]

It's been a long week. It's been a very long week. And it's only about to be another one.

[Elena]

I had my first recognizable panic attack this week.

[Ash]

Yeah, it was really funny. She was explaining her. Like something that happened in her reaction, and me and Aiden were like, that's a panic attack.

[Elena]

They said, babe, that's a panic attack. She was like, yeah.

[Ash]

I couldn't breathe and people were talking to me and I felt like I couldn't hear them or answer them. And my heart was racing and my stomach flit. I was like, yeah, that's a panic attack.

[Elena]

Yeah, that sucks.

[Ash]

Yeah. Welcome to the club.

[Elena]

Don't have one of those.

[Ash]

If you get that.

[Elena]

If you get a chance to make that decision.

[Ash]

You don't ever have decisions.

[Elena]

If it's ever given to you in decision form. Like just Mark. No.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, you know how when you go to a website and it's like, accept cookies for now or never accept cookies. Never accept the cookies. Here.

[Ash]

I allow them.

[Elena]

You always allow them all the time. I don't always. I go back and forth.

[Ash]

I always allow them because I just. I'm like, oh, you just want to

[Elena]

get to where you go.

[Ash]

What even are they?

[Elena]

They're like the things that give. I think they're the things that give. You, like, targeted ads?

[Ash]

Oh, what? I like a ton. I'm pretty sure I'm a sucker for a targeted. These pants. Targeted ad.

[Elena]

There you go. I like that.

[Ash]

You know what? Worth it.

[Elena]

I'm a sucker for it. On Tick Tock. I would say.

[Ash]

Yeah, These are from TikTok. Yeah, the TikTok shop. I remember when I was little, Papa

[Elena]

would always clear the.

[Ash]

He'd go, I'm gonna. I gotta clear the cookies on the computer.

[Elena]

When you do have to do that sometimes I think because they can, like, bog down your. Even on my.

[Ash]

My phone, I think.

[Elena]

I don't know. I. I'm not in the business of. He's nodding.

[Ash]

He's.

[Elena]

He knows.

[Ash]

He's a younger generation who's aware. Yeah, we trust.

[Elena]

We trust what he says about cookies. I don't give a. I know. Like, the cookies.

[Ash]

You Eat. Yeah, about those.

[Elena]

I made my first pumpkin loaf this week. The other day. This weekend, actually.

[Ash]

Steal some of that.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's pretty. It smelled like fall in my home, even though it was like 100,000 degrees and soupy as hell outside.

[Ash]

Yeah. I was going to make a cinnamon pumpkin coffee cake situation, but then Drew woke up before me and he was like, do you want to watch Vanderpump Rules all day? And I said, oh, yeah.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

And so I laid on my couch and I watched Vanderpump Rules. And when I say all day we've been only watching, maybe we've had, like, I don't know, like five or six watch sessions. We're on season five.

[Elena]

Yeah, you can really bang those out, because once you start, you can't stop.

[Ash]

I have a confession to make. Ken Todd. Kind of hot.

[Elena]

Here's the thing. I. I get it, because you explain. When you first said it, I said, huh? And then you said, when he says, I'll knock you spark out when somebody disrespects Lisa.

[Ash]

That's the thing. He looks at him, that little douchebag for disrespecting his wife, and he says, I'll knock your spark out. I said, it got hot in my living room. I said, ken Todd, I get it. I get it. I said, lisa, baby girl, I understand.

[Elena]

Speaking of attractive people.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Thank you to everyone who's been tagging me in that. That Wicker man movie. What's that? Alexander Skarsgard is in a new movie that looks so absurd. Really? I'm gonna tell you what the premise is right now, and you are gonna say, what? Okay. The response to this I've seen everywhere is, this is our fault for asking for unique movies. Okay? But he plays. It's like this. You know, this lady is in.

[Ash]

What's the genre?

[Elena]

I don't know. Okay, okay.

[Ash]

You said too niche of a question.

[Elena]

Hold on, I'm going. So it's. Let me see. Who is in it? Oh, Olivia Colman. Queen Olivia Colman is in it, and she's this lady in a village. And I think she's, like, looking for a husband who isn't. So she goes to this, you know, magical person and says, make me a husband. Oh, no. And they make her a husband who is Alexander Skarsgrd, but made out of wicker baskets.

[Ash]

What?

[Elena]

And then I think they just are horny the whole movie. How do you fuck wicker when it's Alexander Skarsgard?

[Ash]

I think.

[Elena]

But everyone has tagged me in this, and I thank You. Wait, is it. Is this even an original movie or

[Ash]

is it a redo?

[Elena]

No idea. Seems very original to me.

[Ash]

But wait, what is it called again?

[Elena]

It's called Wicker.

[Ash]

Oh, it's called Wicker. I looked up the Wicker Man.

[Elena]

That is a movie. That's a movie.

[Ash]

Wicker.

[Elena]

I meant like the Wicker man. Like the. The man made of wicker. But I should have been more so wicker.

[Ash]

Alexander Skars.

[Elena]

Yep. Okay. He's a hot wicker basket. What the. And it has shown me that Alexander Skarsgard a can do nothing that will make him unattractive. And two, he loves to be as weird as possible.

[Ash]

I'm not here to kink shame. Yeah.

[Elena]

But, like, I think it is hilarious.

[Ash]

You think you would. You could get into this.

[Elena]

I'm obsessed with the whole concept of it. I think it is the funniest thing I have ever seen in my life.

[Ash]

But I asked a question. You could get into this.

[Elena]

The problem is he's a wicker basket. But two, when he talks, it's Alexander Scarsdale's voice. I don't know. I'm not there. I'm not. I'm not Olivia Colman in that village.

[Ash]

I'm not sure about this, but when

[Elena]

he talk, apparently part of the movie, apparently, is that the rest of the village get jealous because he's wonderful and they're all wanting the Wicker Basket Man. So it sounds like the funniest piece of cinema. I'm like, thank you for creating that.

[Ash]

Are we going to go watch it?

[Elena]

What the world needs now is wicker is wicker. Like, that is something the world needs is wicker.

[Ash]

What the fuck? Yeah. I have so much to say, but none of it will come out coherently.

[Elena]

And again, I say thank you to everyone who has tagged me and everything to do with this movie and been like, Elena needs to see this.

[Ash]

Where are you getting tagged in things

[Elena]

about this in Tik on Tik Tok.

[Ash]

Oh, I never look at my. What the. Okay.

[Elena]

I keep. And now it started popping up on my for you page. And I'm like, let's go, girls. This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. Funniest thing I've ever seen. And you know what? Good for all of us. You know? Good for us.

[Ash]

You. You hear something. You hear something new every day.

[Elena]

It's true.

[Ash]

But I love you guys. Like, how does it go?

[Elena]

Everyone who's had the same sense of humor that I've had about Alexander Scar and our love for him, just like I Get it? I apprec you and we are one. Just know that.

[Ash]

But, yeah, there's a lot of logistics there.

[Elena]

There is. That we don't need to go into. It's Alexander Skarsgard, you know.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I just love that he's like a. Just a weirdo.

[Ash]

It reminds me. It looks like grayscale from Game of Thrones, so. Yeah, I could say it's got that vibe.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Oh, remember Jorah?

[Elena]

I know.

[Ash]

Sweet Jorah.

[Elena]

Sweet Jorah. Oh, that makes me sad.

[Ash]

I know. I want to. That's the thing. I feel like I'm going to end up feeling bad for. For Alexander Skarsgard.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because inevitably he's gonna face some wicker problem.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like getting lit on fire or something.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I feel like that's what's probably going to happen. Or he's gonna get weathered. Yeah. Something's gonna happen.

[Ash]

I personally don't like wicker furniture.

[Elena]

I don't either.

[Ash]

You don't either.

[Elena]

That's the problem. This is. Maybe I'm rethinking it. I don't know.

[Ash]

I also fucking hate the smell of wicker so much.

[Elena]

All right, we don't need to take this into reality.

[Ash]

Okay? I'm just. I have to. I have a lot of feelings and I have a lot of questions, and I'm working through them all.

[Elena]

But you know what?

[Ash]

Tell me.

[Elena]

The Butcher legacy is coming out August 11th, period.

[Ash]

That's, like, really soon.

[Elena]

It's really soon. And I'm excited for you guys to see. And I'm excited for you guys to see. There's a little fun little Easter egg in there that, you know, maybe it has to do with something that is on the front cover. Maybe it has to do with a quote on the front cover of the book.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Oh.

[Elena]

So I said, I don't know if I've got the.

[Ash]

What?

[Elena]

Go look for it.

[Ash]

Look for it.

[Elena]

Go pre order it and then look for it.

[Ash]

It's toward the. Toward the middle.

[Elena]

Yeah, you'll find it.

[Ash]

You gotta get there.

[Elena]

You'll find it. If you get the book. So you should get the book and. Yeah. It's coming out August 11th. You can pre order it. Now's the time to do it.

[Ash]

And then we're gonna be at Unlikely Story.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And there's tickets to, like, that virtual event too, right?

[Elena]

Yeah. Because we're gonna make it virtual in. Make it to one of the. One of the stops. You can catch it virtually. That'll be next week on the. On pub day, on the 11th. And that's exciting. Buy it, because I'm working on something else as we speak.

[Ash]

What? Yay.

[Elena]

So it's just an endless flow of creativity.

[Ash]

Are you allowed to say, like, anything

[Elena]

about what you're working on? No.

[Ash]

Okay. But good to know.

[Elena]

It's. I. It's scary.

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

In a different way.

[Ash]

Don't talk about it too much because I need to, like, sign an NDA or something.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Xander's like, tell your sister.

[Elena]

Shut up.

[Ash]

Sorry. Don't worry.

[Elena]

You'll know soon. Yeah, it's cool.

[Ash]

I can't wait to talk about it.

[Elena]

I can't either.

[Ash]

I also can't wait to read it. See, that's one that I want to read the manuscript.

[Elena]

I know. Which is hard.

[Ash]

Give me it.

[Elena]

Yeah, I will when it's done.

[Ash]

All right, cool.

[Elena]

But, yeah, so there's that. That's all our business. We talked about, you know, a wicker Alexander Skarsgard.

[Ash]

I still have so many questions now I feel like I can smell wicker.

[Elena]

Yeah. But, yeah, let's.

[Ash]

How do you transition into a story?

[Elena]

I don't really know. So we're just gonna go for it.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

This is.

[Ash]

Mark your stopwatches, everybody.

[Elena]

Yeah. This one, I'm sure it's like, whoo. Doesn't start until.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. They talked about.

[Elena]

But we talked about a wicker basket. Alexander Skarsgard. Okay. That's important. And I wanted to thank the people who had tagged me in it and has he shown me that wonderful world.

[Ash]

This is about appreciation.

[Elena]

Yeah. I love you guys. So this is an unsolved case. Oh. Remains unsolved. Oh. This is the unsolved murders of Barry and Honey Sherman.

[Ash]

I've heard of this case.

[Elena]

Pretty recent.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

This was in 2017.

[Ash]

This is Canada.

[Elena]

Yeah, this is Canada.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

Also, quick little side note. Found out Tim Tams, Australian, not Canadian. What? Yeah. Blew my minds. Sorry I didn't give you your due, Australia, because I love you guys.

[Ash]

That might have been me. My bad.

[Elena]

Who knows? We'll both take credit for it. Yeah, but we love Australia and our Australian listeners.

[Ash]

But you can get Tim Tams in Canada and you can't get them in the United States.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So that's crazy. Okay, Australia. You did your big.

[Elena]

Australia. You did. I mean, Canada, you've done some great shit when it comes to food. Don't worry.

[Ash]

Dressed up chips.

[Elena]

Yeah, don't worry about that. But Australia got to give you your dues for Tim Tams. Especially the caramel ones, in my opinion. No. Well, you can like what you like.

[Ash]

I'm Just saying, bitch. Why did that? That had like baby mama energy. And she's like, I don't know your life. It's true.

[Elena]

It felt right.

[Ash]

Yeah. Because after a long day at work, I had to come home and stick gum under my coffee table. I don't know your life.

[Elena]

Oh, all right. We called her a. And now we can.

[Ash]

You guys joined in on that?

[Elena]

Everybody did too. So let's go back here now that I've given Australia their due. This was on the morning of December 15, 2017. Two workers arrived at the home of Barry and Honey Sherman in North York, which is a wealthy suburban neighborhood in Toronto, Canada. The two women had arrived at 8:30 in the morning every Friday for years. It was very normal. One was there to clean their very massive 12,000 square foot house.

[Ash]

Holy. And I can't even conceive.

[Elena]

And then the other came to water all the plants. Oh, hell yeah. I think there was probably a lot. As they walked up the long driveway, they went past a for sale sign in the yard. They were selling this massive house. They opened the lockbox that contained the key to the front door and they entered the locked house. Yes, Inside, the house looked like it always did. There was no sign of any disturbances or any forced entry. The two women got to work pretty quickly, and they started on the main floor. And as they worked, the silence that was in the house, which was like pretty normal, you know, like, it's not like there was like a ton of chaos always going on in this house or anything. But the silence at this point was broken because they heard the sound of ringing coming from somewhere on the first floor.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

So one of the women followed the sound to one of the bathrooms where she found an iPhone lying face down on the tiled floor. But by the time she'd picked it up, the collar had hung up.

[Ash]

Also spooky on the bathroom floor.

[Elena]

Yeah. Which like she didn't think anything of it. So maybe she's found something like that before or maybe.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

I don't know.

[Elena]

She just put it on the counter and kept cleaning. Now, the first sign that something wasn't quite right was in the second floor primary bedroom. For as long as she had been cleaning for the Shermans, she said that she had come to expect a kind of messy bedroom when she arrived each week. Nothing crazy, just like the bed unmade, you know, the previous day's clothing may be scattered a little bit.

[Ash]

Honey, I relate so hard.

[Elena]

But on that morning, the bed was made and the room was pretty neat and tidy. Huh. So she was like, whatever. It's just an anomaly. Maybe they just decided to pick up.

[Ash]

She's like, shit, they're turning over a new tidy.

[Elena]

Tidy, yeah. She was like, holy shit. So she turned her attention to the surface, you know, the surfaces in the room and started dusting and just doing that stuff now. At 10am Real estate agent Elise Stern arrived. The house, like I said, was placed on the market a few weeks earlier with an asking price of 6.9 million.

[Ash]

I mean, it's a 12,000.

[Elena]

I was going to say it's huge. And Elise was sharing the listing with another agent, Judy Gottlieb. Everyone was super eager to sell the property, obviously.

[Ash]

Cuz that was a big commission, that commission, Honey.

[Elena]

But the request for a showing that morning had come in at the last minute and Elise hadn't been able to get a hold of Barry or Honey. Despite making several phone calls to them that morning. She didn't want to miss the opportunity to put. That's a hard house to sell. I imagine not a lot of people are buying or in the market for a $6.9 million house.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So she rolled the dice and hoped it would be acceptable to the prospective to bring the prospective buyers through that morning. Okay. Now, a short time later, a young couple arrived with their realtor in Stern and they began the tour starting on the second floor. She pointed out all the best features. You know, it had the typical stuff, it was huge, it was luxurious, marble, all that good stuff. The first floor was equally impressive. So they moved to the basement and Stern continued to highlight all the unique features. It had a very big heated garage that led out to the heated driveway. There was a cedar sauna and all the storage. Storage areas that led to one of the home's biggest selling points.

[Ash]

A lap pool. A lap pool. Yeah. That's sick. I want a sauna so badly.

[Elena]

I. Saunas stress me out. Oh, I don't like being hot.

[Ash]

It just, it gets everything out of you.

[Elena]

It makes me want to throw up.

[Ash]

I love it because I love to do. If I go to like a spa or something, I go into the sauna and then I go in the, the cold pool and then I go into the hot tub. Wow.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's my.

[Ash]

It's mine.

[Elena]

See, that sounds like it would make me vomit. Really? All that temperature dysregulation would me up.

[Ash]

Oh, I love it.

[Elena]

I need to. I can't.

[Ash]

It's probably like low key.

[Elena]

Not good for you.

[Ash]

I don't know, like my, my way.

[Elena]

But yeah, I'm like, doesn't that. That would make me nauseous.

[Ash]

Well, when you go in the sauna, you're, like, so, so hot, so you have to cool down. But then I don't like being too cold, so then I finish off in the hot tub.

[Elena]

There you go.

[Ash]

That's a little.

[Elena]

You would have loved this house.

[Ash]

Yeah, I would have bought it for sure.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now for sure.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Easy.

[Elena]

Yeah. Yeah, that's it. When they reached the end of the hallway, Stern pressed the red button on the wall that disengaged the safety lock on the glass door, which was just one of the many safety features built around the pool, which is also good. As they walked through the door, Elise Stern stopped abruptly, and she was startled because she found. Oh, the Shermans are home. And so she said, oh, I'm so sorry. And then she turned to the prospective buyers and politely ushered them out of the room, and she said, they're doing yoga. I think we'll come back.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

So Elise Stern had been so surprised to find them in the basement that she was too preoccupied with not intruding to notice that something was terribly wrong with the scene she had just witnessed by the pool. They're doing yoga. Later, she would tell the family she had initially thought the couple were, quote, performing some sort of odd meditation. The realtor for the potential buyers had also caught a glimpse of the room and saw what he later described as, quote, something left over from Halloween. Sitting by the pool.

[Ash]

Two very different descriptions.

[Elena]

Yeah. Which, again, like. Yeah, very different descriptions. I. In that moment, I don't know how you grasp what you see.

[Ash]

I don't know how they were found.

[Elena]

So, yeah. With the potential buyers now gone and quiet, returning to the house, Elise's mind went back to Barry and Honey Sherman. Because they kind of, like, ushered the buyers, like, the whole house. Yeah, they went through the whole house.

[Ash]

Holy.

[Elena]

And that was what was weird. They were like, you didn't notice us at all in the house, like, and

[Ash]

then when we interrupted you, like, you just really didn't mind.

[Elena]

Like, you didn't come back out and be like, oh, like, maybe that's why

[Ash]

she thought they were, like, so transfixed.

[Elena]

Yeah. So maybe that's why she was like, oh, they must be meditating. And she had told the. Like, I guess the buyers were, like, a little weirded out by the whole thing. So they were like, oh, we're just gonna leave. Okay. So they leave. It's quiet in the house again. And Elise's mind went back to Barry and Honey. They were. She said they were Occasionally eccentric, especially when it came to their taste in art and decor. But in their mid-70s, neither struck her as the type who would probably be into meditation or yoga. Like, they just didn't have that vibe. But she'd only caught a quick look before turning the buyers and their agent around. So there was. But she was. Like, there was something about that scene that just felt wrong. I didn't get a good look, but, like, something was nagging up at me. But she couldn't put her finger on it. Okay, now, Elise called out for the. The woman who was cleaning the house, who was just quietly making her way through the second floor bedrooms. And the woman came downstairs, and like Elise, she had no idea the Shermans were at home. And she hadn't seen them since she and the other woman had arrived a few hours earlier. So she was like, they have not been upstairs in the house. Elise asked her to go downstairs and take a look into the pool room, hoping the woman might be able to figure out what was going on or at least why something felt off to her.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And a few minutes later, the woman returned, a shocked look on her face. And she was visibly upset and having trouble even getting out words. But eventually she managed to say, call the police. Oh, so Elise Stern was right. They were not meditating or doing yoga. Like, her gut was telling her they were dead.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Oh.

[Elena]

Now this is like, a real fact that, like, so when this happened in another case that I was reading about actually recently, when people are confronted with incredibly tragic or, like, terrifying things. Yeah. Their first instinct isn't always to call the police.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Sometimes that just doesn't happen at first. Like, in fact, for, you know, whatever reason, when Elise Stern picked up her phone, she didn't dial 911 as the woman had asked, but instead she called Honey Sherman's sister Mary. And she lived in Florida. And after hearing what Elise had to say, Mary insisted she call the police immediately.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And ultimately, nearly 90 minutes passed between the discovery of the Sherman's bodies and when the report was made to police. Okay, that's a lot. Which is like, a lot.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, I can understand the initial. Like, I've never been in the position of discovering a dead body. Yeah. Well, you have to think, you know,

[Ash]

like, calling somebody's sister and obviously reporting awful news. Like, but, yeah, like, that's a. That's a different call than calling the police. Not everybody's, like, super used to calling the police.

[Elena]

Well, that's. I think it's just like, she might have been in shock. She might have been just. Yeah, you don't know. We all react differently in certain situations. That's why we're always, like, a little on the fence about judging people. Like grieving and shit. It's all a little different, but 90 minutes.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I'm like, what happened there? That's an hour and a half. Yeah. That's what I don't understand. I could watch and you don't really figure it out. Now, a little before noon, two Toronto police officers arrived at the house, along with two paramedics and a firefighter. In the basement next to the pool, they found the couple just as the woman upstairs said they would. Barry Sherman was in a sitting position, his legs outstretched, with his right leg crossed over his left. He was fully dressed, his bomber jacket pulled down slightly in a way that would have kept his arms pinned at his side. And he was still wearing his glasses,

[Ash]

so you can kind of see why.

[Elena]

Maybe she thought it did look like

[Ash]

they were just sitting or like stretching.

[Elena]

Were it not for the fact that he was very clearly dead when you came close to him, one could have easily assumed that he was just sitting down, resting by the pool. Okay. Now, beside Barry was Honey Sherman, his wife of 47 years. She too had her coat pulled down off her shoulders to keep her arms to her side. And unlike Barry, who looked completely undisturbed, really, Honey had an injury on her face like she had been struck by something or someone.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

As far as the paramedics could tell, the couple had been there for at least a day, maybe more. Rigor mortis had already come and gone. The only thing holding them in a sitting position were the leather belts wrapped around their necks.

[Ash]

I was just wondering how they were still.

[Elena]

They were secured tightly to the 3 foot high railing surrounding the pool. So they were sitting. So they were staged like they were hanged.

[Ash]

What the fuck? And also wearing their jackets.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That's so bizarre.

[Elena]

Now, hours later, the Sherman house was filled with uniformed officers, detectives, crime scene technicians. Like most of the houses on Old Colony Road, the Shermans didn't have security cameras outside the house, which is strange. Yeah. There was, though, a security camera in the pool room. Unfortunately, it had never been set up, so it was useless. Oh, fuck. There was also the problem of the workers who'd arrived that morning. By the time the bodies had been discovered and the police were called, they had. The cleaning woman had basically finished her work, effectively wiping away any potential fingerprints or evidence. Which is not her fault. That's literally her job.

[Ash]

But that's such a trick.

[Elena]

But what a Thing to you know, outside of the bodies by the pool in the basement, nothing about the scene scene really seemed unusual. Outside of them.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

With an estimated net worth of $4.6 billion.

[Ash]

Holy shit.

[Elena]

Barry Sherman would have made a perfect target for this. Kind of like a robbery.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But as far as anyone could tell, nothing in the house was missing. When.

[Ash]

It just doesn't sound like a robbery.

[Elena]

Yeah. And the. The woman who was cleaning didn't remember finding anything being disturbed when she. When she arrived beside the phone, like.

[Ash]

And the.

[Elena]

The bedroom was not disturbed.

[Ash]

More neat and tiny. Tidier than it had ever been.

[Elena]

When they arrived for work that morning, the two women had found the door locked and they used the key in the lockbox to enter. And for those lockboxes, you have to have a code.

[Ash]

Well, that makes you think, did somebody have that code?

[Elena]

Who had the code?

[Ash]

The code. Exactly.

[Elena]

The rest of the entrances were all locked and there was no sign of forced entry.

[Ash]

I fucking hate a lockbox.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

Yeah, we've all been there.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

Now. Late that afternoon, surrounded by reporters on the front lawn of the Sherman House, investigators gave the first of what would be many, many press conferences about the case. Constable David Hopkinson told reporters the circumstances of their deaths appear to be suspicious.

[Ash]

I'd say so, brother.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Elena]

Thank you for that. Thank you. Now, his statement was brief.

[Ash]

I'd say so.

[Elena]

But it was followed by a second statement a few hours later, this time from Detective Brandon Price. According to Price, he said there was no sign of forced entry and no obvious motive. He said, I just wanted to alleviate some concerns in the neighborhood. At this point, indications are that we have no outstanding suspect to be going after. Okay. In other words, the deaths may have been suspicious, but investigators didn't seem to think it was. Didn't seem to think it was a homicide, maybe, or maybe just that it was that they thought it was somebody that was clearly targeting them or was like in their circle.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Now, as the founder, chairman and CEO of Apotex Inc. One of the largest pharmaceutical companies in Canada, Barry Sherman had a significant public profile. And the news of his death was a shock to the city's elite circles. Mayor John Tory told a reporter, I'm shocked and heartbroken to learn that Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead in their home today. I've had the privilege of knowing them both well for many years.

[Ash]

They also, like, that's. That just sounds like the sweetest couple I know.

[Elena]

Barry and Barry and Honey, who have been really cute 47 years. Yeah. And her name was Anna, but she was just called Honey.

[Ash]

That's so cute.

[Elena]

Now that sentiment was shared by Ontario Health Minister Eric Hoskins. He said, I cannot begin to find the words to express my deep sorrow and profound sadness at the tragic loss of my dear friends Barry and Honey Sherman. But Hoskins was quick to add that the public should be careful not to jump to conclusions. Said Toronto police are investigating and I hope that investigation will be able to provide answers for all of us who are mourning this tremendous loss. If this is determined to be a homicide, all the information identifying who we found and circumstances may be released. But let's say this was an accident or something, then the family deserves some privacy.

[Ash]

I don't know how that would be an accident, though.

[Elena]

They theorized pretty quickly.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

In the days that followed the discovery, the press and public grew increasingly frustrated with the Toronto police because they remained very tight lipped about the investigation.

[Ash]

But sometimes that's a good thing.

[Elena]

Sometimes that's a good thing. I would beg to say that it's probably because he's a pharmaceutical CEO that they were being like, yeah, which would be frustrating, you know, to not know what the hell is going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they were refusing to reveal, like, any details. And behind the scenes, there was a significant contingent of the investigation who believed that while certainly suspicious looking, they felt that it seemed more than likely that Barry had murdered Honey than killed himself, that this was a murder suicide.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

There was no sign of forced entry, nothing appeared to be missing, and it was only Honey who appeared to have suffered a physical injury before death. That said, there was no evidence to support the murder suicide theory, which is likely why investigators kept it among themselves, at least for a day or so.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

On December 17, an article appeared in the Toronto Star reporting that according to a source within the department, quote, toronto police are investigating the possibility that the deaths of billionaire Barry Sherman and his wife were a murder suicide. By the end of the day, the story had been picked up by other print and cable news outlets and Ontario, then the US and then everywhere.

[Ash]

That would just be such a. Obviously like it can happen, but that would be the strangest setup for a murder suicide.

[Elena]

It would definitely be strange and they. That plays into, you know, the doubts. Yeah.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Yeah. So there's, there's a strange. Well, and there's no evidence to support it when it comes right down to it.

[Ash]

Okay. So, and, but they had nothing to go off of. So it was, had to start somewhere.

[Elena]

It was, it was irresponsible, in my opinion, to throw that into the news. Right away. Because if you don't have anything that says that, then don't.

[Ash]

Don't say that.

[Elena]

I wouldn't even say that about it, but, you know, and interesting that it

[Ash]

was a source within the department. It's like, hey, you, Husha, husha.

[Elena]

Hey, you. Now, according to the anonymous source within the Toronto police, the theory was that Barry had strangled his wife in a rage, then took his own life. A notion that, to everyone who knew them, seemed completely absurd and impossible. Yeah. The Sherman's children said in a statement to the press, our parents shared an enthusiasm for life and a commitment to their family and community. Totally inconsistent with the rumors, regrettably circum circulated in the media as to the circumstances surrounding their deaths.

[Ash]

Yeah, I'd be pissed if my parents were married for 47 years, and then the second they die, everyone's like, oh,

[Elena]

they did it to each other. Yeah. And that's. And also it's like, say what you want about, you know, like, billionaires and, like, we all feel a certain way and like, pharmaceutical CEOs and all that. I. We all understand that sentiment. But kids, they have kids, and those kids don't have anything to do with anything that people might or might not have been involved in. You know what I mean? Like, that's the point. That's the part that always makes me feel bad. It's like, the kids.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And to have that kind of stuff being, like, thrown around, it's like they have. They're dealing with, like, very real emotions, you know, it's like, that always makes me sad for them, that they don't get a say in how it's portrayed, you know? Yeah.

[Ash]

You can dehumanize people too easily, I

[Elena]

think, just like, for. For their sake. And the statement went on to say, we are shocked and think it's irresponsible that police sources have reportedly advised the media of a theory which neither their family, their friends, nor their colleagues believe to be true. We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation and urged the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these tragic deaths until the investigation is complete.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

From the moment the police got to the Sherman's house a few days earlier, investigators appeared to treat the deaths with a pretty casual indifference that didn't match the bizarre scene in the basement. Because it's like, that's a weird scene. Yeah, like, that's a weird scene.

[Ash]

That's one of the weirdest that we've discussed.

[Elena]

These aren't people who just got like, and this isn't to say that this is, like, okay or anything like that, but it's like, it's not a scene that they've come across very often. You know, like, these aren't, like, gunshot wounds and left on the floor, which is horrific and tragic, but something they have, unfortunately, probably seen before. Detectives, I feel like this is something you probably haven't. It's a weirdly staged scene. Well.

[Ash]

And that's the biggest thing is the staging. Like, they're wearing their jackets. He has his legs crossed. There's belts around their neck. They're tied next to their pool.

[Elena]

Like, tied to the railing. Like, I feel like that would just be. Like, this is weird. Like, isn't anybody thinking of this?

[Ash]

Because if I'm like, again, weird things happen. But if it was a murder suicide, I don't think that's typically.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

What everybody's come across before in those kinds of cases.

[Elena]

Yeah. No matter what. No matter what you feel or what you think, that it's a strange scene. Yeah, it's very strange.

[Ash]

It's so strange to me that they're still wearing their jackets. I don't know why I'm so stuck on that.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's weird. No. Days later, the case was still being treated as a suspicious death handled by officers working out of the 33rd Precinct, with rumors about unsupported theories being leaked to the press. And maybe investigators did really believe that the Sherman's death was a case of murder suicide. Or maybe it was just a rumor among the precinct and it had gotten out of control. Like, we don't know. As far as the family was concerned, it was absolute nonsense and not a theory that they were willing to even slightly pursue. Yeah. Just days before their deaths, Honey had been excitedly planning a trip for the two of them to visit family in Florida, and they just welcomed a brand new grandchild.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah. As far as anyone knew, they had everything to look forward to and were still completely devoted to one another after nearly five decades together.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, it just didn't seem like that was in the cards. Obviously, nobody knows everything that's going on behind closed doors.

[Ash]

So usually when you. When you dig a little bit something, that's the thing.

[Elena]

And usually you can sense a little bit of something. It just didn't seem like that was in the cards at all.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Now, just one day after the rumors of a murder suicide leaked, several officers were sent to the medical examiner's office to be on hand during the autopsy and were expected to Take notes and be ready to receive any samples or evidence. Now, this was technically the department's protocol, but it was not a practice that the department had been very strict about in the past. Because a lot of people don't want to be at an autopsy. Yeah. But they definitely wanted them there for, like, crimes that definitely had a criminal element to it. So it was a step in the right direction. It was a sign that the department was starting to take the case more seriously and were open to the possibility that they had indeed been murdered. Now, pathologist Dr. Michael Pickup was assigned to conduct both autopsies, and it would be his responsibility to determine whether there was any truth to the rumors that that had been circulating. Okay. Under normal circumstances, such a high profile case would have been handed to Ontario's chief pathologist, who was Dr. Michael Pullenen. But he was unavailable, so it went to his, like, unofficial second in command, Michael Pickup. Okay. Now, among the more important findings noted in Pickup's report was that Barry's hyoid bone, which was a small bone in the neck that supports the tongue and allows for swallowing, it was completely intact. Okay. Now, the hyoid bone is pretty fragile. So in cases of violent strangulation or hanging, it's pretty common for it to be broken. I'm sure we come across. If you've been listening, you've definitely heard that the same would be true if the individual were subjected to a quick tightening around your neck. Like, would happen with a belt.

[Ash]

Your hyoid bone would likely break. Break.

[Elena]

Yeah. In fact, cases of strangulation where the hyoid bone was not broken were most often cases of suicide in which the individual slowly tightens a ligature around their neck or drops for a short distance.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Sherman removed the bone and set it aside for closer inspection. Then he continued working his way down the body. Now, that hyoid bone, that would have supported the murder suicide, to be honest, but the rest of Barry's body did not. Now, Barry was 75 years old, and he wasn't, like, super muscular. Like, wasn't, like, you know, like, wasn't a gym rat. At 75 at the time, investigators believe Barry had, quote, overpowered his wife in another part of the house, strangled her, dragged her down a flight of stairs, and positioned her beside the pool, holding her in a seated position with a leather belt around her neck.

[Ash]

So if she was, like, dragged, I feel like there would be evidence of that on her body.

[Elena]

Yeah. And that would have honestly been hard for a young man to do.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, that would have Taken a lot.

[Ash]

Yeah. Considerable effort.

[Elena]

And as the autopsy went on, things only got more confusing around Barry's wrists. There appeared to be some sort of abrasions, as though his wrists had been bound with rope or plastic zip tie at some point before his death. Okay, but when the bodies were discovered, neither of the victim's hands were bound. Now, although the pathologist couldn't determine whether Barry's wrists had been bound in front or behind his back, he was fairly confident that he had indeed been bound at the wrist, which further weakened the murder suicide theory. Yeah. Now, moving to honey. Dr. Pickup started at the head and began working his way down. And the most notable difference between Barry and Honey was that, like we said before, she had a fresh wound on her face.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Right.

[Elena]

But there was no bruising, indicating that she died not long after she was struck. Now, unfortunately, the pathologist was unable to figure out how she had got the injury to her face. But Honey's injuries were similar to her other injuries were similar to her husband's. The neck muscles and thyroid cartilage had been injured in the same manner. And her hyoid bone was still intact.

[Ash]

Oh, hers was, too. Okay.

[Elena]

Yep. Finally, there was the cause of death. It was clear from the evidence that the Shermans had died of ligature strangulation or neck compression. And during that, their trachea and larynx were closed off, which prevents breathing. Although the marks on the necks match the belts found at the scene, making it likely that there was. That they were the murder weapon. Dr. Pickup noted that he could only speculate that the belts at the scene were the same used to kill them. Also, while he may not have put it in his report, it occurred to Dr. Pickup that if this was, in fact, a suicide, it was a surprisingly elaborate one that seemed overly complicated and very difficult. And again, the wrist. The binding of the wrist just made it. No, it wasn't. That's too weird. Now, although it would be several more weeks before the Sherman's deaths were classified as homicides, detectives from the Toronto Homicide Squad were added to the investigation right after the autopsy. In the absence of evidence or leads, the detectives turned to, you know, personal histories, hoping they could find someone there.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Now, Barry Sherman was born in Toronto, Ontario, on February 25, 1942. He was the son of Herbert and Sarah Sherman. He actually had an unfinished memoir that he was writing. Oh. And he had started writing it in 1996. And he wrote his quote. First 10 years were unremarkable. He grew in Forest Hill. Grew up in Forest Hill. A wealthy suburb of Toronto that would eventually be annexed and incorporated into the city itself. His father was the president of the America Trimming Company, a corporation that made zippers, and his mother was a homemaker. Okay, now, by all accounts, Barry's early life was pretty remarkable, like, unremarkable. But that changed in 1952, when he was just 10 years old. One morning in mid November, Herbert Sherman went to work. And a few hours later, he suffered a massive heart attack at his desk. Oh. Killing him instantly.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

And he was only 47.

[Ash]

Jesus.

[Elena]

It turned out that he had a heart defect that he had known about but had not told anyone about.

[Ash]

Oh, that's really sad.

[Elena]

Barry wrote, obviously he should have told her, meaning his mother. But he theorized that his father would have perceived this knowledge as a burden, so he kept it to himself. Yeah. At the time of his death, he owned a small stake in the zipper company, so he was able to leave some money to his wife, but it was not enough to care for two children, so she had to go back to work as, like, a occupational therapist. Okay. Now, despite dealing with the sudden death of his father, Barry was smart and committed to getting good grades and later developed a real aptitude for math and science. He later wrote, although I do not know to what extent, if any, I was affected by my father's death. A psychologist said that the drive to achieve which I later exhibited was caused at least in part, by resulting insecurity. Okay. Which, like, okay, maybe. After he graduated from high school, Barry went to work for his uncle, Lou Winter, at one of the two pharmaceutical factories Winter owned in Toronto. Lou and Kevin Donovan, who we have linked in the show, linked in the show notes he wrote, Lou Winter was not a surrogate father, but he was someone Sherman looked up to. His uncle was incredibly successful professionally and financially, and Barry saw that such power and wealth offered considerable opportunities in life.

[Ash]

I mean, yeah.

[Elena]

When Barry enrolled at the University of Toronto the next year, he chose to pursue a degree in chemistry, eventually reaching the top of his class by graduation.

[Ash]

And chemistry is hard, as yuck.

[Elena]

And Sherman wrote, it seems that the tougher things got, the better I did. Now, the year after he graduated, Barry was working at his uncle's company when his first big break came. At the time, Barry's aunt and uncle were on vacation. So when a call came in from a major distributor regarding the purchase of generic aspirin, Barry saw it as an opportunity to prove himself in the business world. Taking the initiative, he got on the phone with the supplier and, quote, negotiated the purchase of a substantially increased quantity at a substantially lower price. When his uncle returned and learned of the deal his nephew had made, he was very, very pleased. Okay, this is giving succession. Yeah, it really is, Barry said, although I did not know at the time. These summers at Empire Laboratories would later prove to be of critical importance to my future career. Now, his intention had been to graduate from college and pursue a graduate degree in aeronautics. But the universe had other plants. The is aeronautics. Aeronautics, yeah. Doesn't that have to do with like, flying? Oh, maybe aero or like air space kind of things.

[Ash]

Couldn't tell you.

[Elena]

Aero.

[Ash]

Astronauts.

[Elena]

The science and art of designing, building and operating flight capable machines.

[Ash]

That's cool.

[Elena]

Makes sense there. Let me see. That is cool. That, that, that takes some know how.

[Ash]

That's next level.

[Elena]

Now, after just one year at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology mit, Barry got a call from his sister to tell him that Uncle Lou had died. Oh. At just 41 years old.

[Ash]

Oh, that's gotta be like, pretty haunting.

[Elena]

He had suffered an aneurysm at the office.

[Ash]

Jesus.

[Elena]

The employees called an ambulance, but by the time they got to the hospital, it was too late. A few months later, his Aunt Beverly, Lou's wife, died from leukemia, which left the couple's four small children orphaned. Oh, and Barry later recalled, I couldn't adopt them myself. I was just a kid myself.

[Ash]

No, you're like 20 something.

[Elena]

Instead, the children went to live with a local family. He offered to buy shares in his uncle's company after his death, especially since the company was having financial issues. But that offer was initially rejected.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Now. Barry returned to Boston and finished his PhD. But his experiences with his uncle's businesses had sparked an intense interest in science and business for him. So he wanted to combine them. So after graduating from mit, he went back to Toronto, determined to become his own boss at his own company. Hell yeah. Now, by the time Barry got back to Canada, the financial problems with the company, they got so much worse. And he wasn't part of the company. But they were a lot worse, and the company had become insolvent. Once again, Barry offered to buy the shares in the company, but. And this time he added a provision that his four young cousins would all be entitled to work at the company and have the right to purchase 5% of the company shares provided certain conditions were made. Okay, which, like 5%? I was going to say that's a little low, bear. I was like, excuse me, Barry. Yeah, like you can do a lot better than that.

[Ash]

Yeah, 5%, a little crazy.

[Elena]

I don't know a lot about shares, but like, feels like that's not a lot.

[Ash]

You know, business and all.

[Elena]

Yeah, exactly. Now this time, the bank decided to take him up on his offer. And using money borrowed from their parents, Barry and his longtime, long, lifelong best friend Joel Ulster purchased the shares for $450,000.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Elena]

Now, when Barry and Joel settled into their new company, they were pretty surprised to learn that things were a lot worse financially than they anticipated. Just two years later, they decided to sell the company to one of the biggest customers, International Chemical and Nuclear Corporation, making ICNC the owners of Empire, the actual company. The deal was a financial boon for Sherman and Ulster, but the sale voided the previous contract that allowed the benefits for his cousins.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Oh.

[Elena]

Where once they would have been provided for financially and had guaranteed employment should they want it, they now had nothing. And that was essentially their inheritance. Yeah, so that was fucked up. That's a stain. Yeah, that's not good.

[Ash]

Foreign.

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[Ash]

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[Elena]

Yeah, we've all been there.

[Ash]

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[Narrator/Advertiser]

what if everything you knew about your life wasn't the full story? Meet Annie, a New York City teen whose world flips when she inherits a mysterious island and discovers a sister she never knew existed. New friends, first loves, and family secrets that change everything. Welcome to Sterling Point, a new original set series from Megan Park. Who brought you My old ass? Premiering August 5th, only on Prime Video.

[Elena]

Now, one year later, in 1971, Sherman and Ulster went on to form Apotex, a pharmaceutical company that, like Empire, manufactured generic drugs. Okay. That was also the year Barry met Honey Reich. And her name was Anna, but they called her Honey.

[Ash]

She's like so cute.

[Elena]

I can't get. Yeah. She was born in Austria in 1947 in a post war camp for displaced people. Oh, my God. Just a few years earlier, her parents, Naftuli and Helen Reich, had been freed from a Nazi work camp by the Allied forces and would eventually emigrate to Canada, settling in Toronto. Honey's parents owned and operated a small shoe store in downtown Toronto, and the family lived in a small home in New York, North York. Honey's sister Mary later recalled, our parents bought a house and rented out every square inch of it. Despite the chaos of living in a boarding house, the Reichs managed to provide for their children and were generally very supportive and kind parents.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Elena]

After graduating from high school, Honey enrolled at the Ontario College of Education and pursued a teaching degree. Okay. Never one to like downtime. While she was completing her teacher training in the late 1960s, Honey took a volunteer job at Mount Sinai Hospital for the summer. She was very into film philanthropy. Thank you. I almost said philanthropy.

[Ash]

No, I. I almost do that every Time I say it because you go to say, like, philanthropy. Yeah, Philanthropic.

[Elena]

It's so hard.

[Ash]

She was very into.

[Elena]

She was very philanthropic. Yes, she was very into charity.

[Ash]

She was a, you know, philanthropist. Oh, my.

[Elena]

Philanthropist. Yeah, you're right.

[Ash]

Let's stop saying words hard. Not me helping you and then getting.

[Elena]

Absolutely. It's hard to say, but yeah. She took a volunteer job at Mount Sinai Hospital, and that's when she met and befriended Cindy Ulster, a nurse and the wife of Barry's business partner, Joel Ulster. Ah, there it is. Cindy and Honey developed a fast friendship, and eventually she introduced her to Honey. They started dating, and by 1971, Honey and Barry were married.

[Ash]

So sweet.

[Elena]

To anyone who knew them both, Honey and Barry were the classic case of opposites attract. Really, where he was very quiet and reserved and just kind of like, head down, do your work. Honey was loud, she was outgoing. She loved to throw a party. Party. She loved to socialize. My kind of gal. That said, it seems little is known about their personal relationship dynamic. Okay. By the time Apotex was making massive profits, Honey regularly donated to local causes and attended all manner of events and fundraisers. But she often did that alone. She would leave Barry home or like to work.

[Ash]

Okay. I mean, he just wasn't, like, super social.

[Elena]

It was her thing, for sure. Okay. Now, by late January 2018, Barry and Honey's deaths were formally classified as homicides.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

But if detectives were hoping to find a clue to their killer's motive or identity in the victim's past, they were very frustrated when nothing was really jumping out at them, as far as anyone could tell. Honey, especially, was very well liked and a very active member of the community with no enemies.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I mean, Barry definitely had some stuff going on.

[Ash]

That business gets super complicated in his

[Elena]

particular business and pharmaceutical.

[Ash]

Pharmaceutical CEO. Yeah. Yeah, that's tough.

[Elena]

The problem wasn't so much that investigators couldn't find any leads or information, but it was that everyone they talked to seemed unwilling or unable to provide anything of value. After interviewing 127 people and investing more than a thousand hours into the case, most things seemed to point back to Sherman's company, Apotex. Okay. Unfortunately, when it came to getting any information from the execs at Apotex, no one was forthcoming. Yeah. Gomes said legal complexities in some executions have been challenging. Given the litigious nature of Barry Sherman's businesses, in particular the search and seizure of electronics in Barry Sherman's workspace at Apotex, it turned out that, I mean, it was pretty much Stonewalling is what they're describing, but it was a little more complicated than that. According to defense lawyer Anthony Mustakalis, if you're dealing with a company that's got a ton of lawsuits going on, the company has an obligation to protect its legal rights. So it's not that they would resist the warrant, but they would have to call lawyers to say, we want to make sure we're only giving them what is related to their investigation and nothing else. Yeah, it's super complicated. Basically, Apotex had a lot of legal battles related to their manufacturing at the time. They were in a lot of lawsuits, all of which had to be considered with regard to what information they released to the police and the press. They couldn't just hand information that was being used in a lawsuit.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's like privileged. Whatever.

[Elena]

Yeah. And it's just if it's being used in this lawsuit for something else, you can't now throw it out into the public. Now, regardless of how it was framed, Gomes and the rest of the investigation team felt certain the key to breaking the Sherman case was hidden somewhere in Apotex. And they really thought it was probably in Barry's, like, private communications. Okay. And it turned out there was good reason to believe that.

[Ash]

Can they not get his private communications?

[Elena]

They had. They were struggling to get a warrant for any of it.

[Ash]

Wow. Even those.

[Elena]

Because, again, it's on a company computer. So it's like, not. For most of his life, Barry Sherman's public Persona was that of a wealthy, intelligent, and somewhat aloof businessman with a knack for making money. But there was another side of Barry that the press and public didn't know a lot about.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

In April 2018, Maclean's magazine published a piece that investigative journalists had spent months researching that exposed Barry's more questionable side of his financial life.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

The piece referred to Sherman as, quote, a hard nosed strategic genius. But it also said he, quote, conducted business with known criminals. He was a billionaire driven to litigation. Less by money than something more primal. A sense of righteous certitude that propelled him to prevail at any cost. So he was dealing with some shady characters.

[Ash]

Giving. It's giving Logan Roy.

[Elena]

It is giving Logan Roy. In addition to this. Exactly. Now, thank you, Kendall.

[Ash]

No problem.

[Elena]

In addition to his questionable financial dealings, the ongoing investigation by the Toronto police and Canadian journalists revealed that despite Barry and Honey's status as, quote, charity royalty and fixtures on the gala circuit, Barry's shrewd and often ruthless approach to deal making had made him a long List of enemies over the course of his 50 year, you know, 50 plus year career in the industry.

[Ash]

I don't think you often get to billionaire status without making enemies along the way.

[Elena]

You got to have the longest list of enemies if you're reaching billionaire status. That's just how I feel.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Now the question was which Also I'm like, it can't be worth that. No, it can't be worth that.

[Ash]

I don't think so.

[Elena]

That's just my opinion is I don't think it's worth. And you know the amount of shit that is going to surround you to get to billionaire status that you'll never be able to spend in your lifetime or your family. That's my biggest thing.

[Ash]

That you'll never be able to spend it in your lifetime and your kids won't spend that in their lifetime.

[Elena]

That's crazy.

[Ash]

We'll leave it there because we could talk about this for a long time.

[Elena]

We could really get into it. But the question was, had Barry angered one or more of those enemies to the extent that they sought revenge by doing something so heinous, killing him and his wife?

[Ash]

Also, like, how would they gain access to their.

[Elena]

That's the other thing. There's no forced entry.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

And the doors were locked. Like what?

[Ash]

Unless somebody. Like, would it be possible that somebody didn't like close the lock box all the way? Is that a thing?

[Elena]

I guess I don't. I don't really know what the lockbox looked like. That's a good question.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I think those lock boxes are pretty, pretty secure. Because I mean that's a, that's a lot of liability.

[Ash]

Pretty secure. But at the same time, like maybe if it's not closed properly. I don't know.

[Elena]

What do these lock boxes even look like? Lockbox.

[Ash]

It's usually like a big like padlock looking thing that you put like a coat into.

[Elena]

I see.

[Ash]

But there's various different kinds.

[Elena]

I feel like it would be tough to not close it properly.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But could it have been like some kind of setup where it was intentionally not closed properly?

[Elena]

I mean, maybe. You know for sure.

[Ash]

I'm getting into.

[Elena]

Or it's somebody who knows the lockbox code. Well, that's, that's the simplest.

[Ash]

Obvious. Yeah.

[Elena]

You know. Now it wasn't as though Barry himself had not considered this.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Being an issue. Like security being an issue for him.

[Ash]

But it's so interesting. They didn't have cameras.

[Elena]

Yeah. That's the thing. Now in a late 90s interview, he acknowledged that he was an Easy target for, you know, potentially murder. He said, perhaps. I'm surprised that hasn't happened.

[Ash]

That's got to be a wild thing

[Elena]

to come to terms with now. In the 20 years that followed that interview, as Apotex expanded around the world, becoming serious competition for countless other drug companies, that list of potential enemies only grew. And he was already worried about them. And it grew exponentially. And one considers Sherman's investments outside of the pharma industry, which was in diamonds, the film industry, horse racing, among others.

[Ash]

Wait, sorry, what was it?

[Elena]

What was his investments outside of the pharma industry. Diamonds, film industry, horse racing, other horse racing.

[Ash]

Gets.

[Elena]

That list gets watch Peaky Blinders, my friend. And that's watch some Peaky blinders.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You don't want that. The film industry.

[Ash]

Give me a lab grown any day. Like, God. God damn.

[Elena]

God damn. Like that.

[Ash]

You know, this is the perfect time.

[Elena]

Keep it quiet on the creek. This is.

[Ash]

You got to keep it quiet on the creek in those industries. I heard the kids are saying that, and I love it.

[Elena]

Ash informed me that the kids are saying. Are not saying down low or anything as much.

[Ash]

Well, that's what I think.

[Elena]

She's. She's. She's found out that this could. Could potentially be a new thing, is keep it quiet on the creek. And at first it seemed too much for me because I'm just sick of new things coming. It grew on her. But then I was like, wait, that does feel like some kind of like 20s 30s slang where it's like, keep it quiet on that creek. You can hear somebody with like a transatlantic accent saying it, you know, So

[Ash]

I like blowing a little smoke plume.

[Elena]

Yeah. Saying, hey, keep it quiet.

[Ash]

I had to use it.

[Elena]

I do like that I'm obsessed with it.

[Ash]

I hope the kids start using it, to be honest.

[Elena]

Yeah, I'm okay with that one. It's better than six, seven. Yeah, yeah. That When. When you first start this, you say, oh, what could have happened?

[Ash]

Like, what?

[Elena]

You know, and then you're like, oh, wow. And then you sit there and you're like, oh, no. There's about a hundred different avenues to go down.

[Ash]

100 different avenues. But still super strange circumstances with no forced entry. That's what I can't wrap my head around.

[Elena]

That's what really brings me back.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, huh.

[Ash]

Unless it's some kind of like. And this is theoretical. Unless it's some kind of, like, inside job where somebody knows a code and shares it with somebody else. And like, it's very strange.

[Elena]

It's all very strange. Now all of the more insidious activities that were discovered during this period significantly, like we were just saying, complicated matters for investigators.

[Ash]

It's a lot of avenues to go down.

[Elena]

Yeah, exactly like. And you know, it's. They didn't really need to dig too deep to find all this stuff. Like, Barry was actively involved in various legal battles that as of recent years before they were murdered had become pretty heated.

[Ash]

Oh shit.

[Elena]

There was the lawsuit against the employee of Apotex who was fired for allegedly stealing drug formulations, which eventually led to the more serious allegations of corporate espionage.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

And outside of the company, and we're not saying like you know anything about this is just another ongoing legal battle that he was obviously in was with his four cousins, the children of Lou and Beverly Winter.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Who were suing over what they said was their lost inheritance. Oh. There was also the fact that the Shermans had recently placed their home on the market, which is stressful, you know, under any circumstances. But also they had to open up their home to strangers. So who knows if somebody came and looked at the house.

[Ash]

Here's the other thing they possibly. Like somebody could have come and looked at the house and seen the code

[Elena]

of the box behind it.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

Watched the person enter it. So I wanna, I'm like, where's the list of people that looked at that house?

[Ash]

Yeah. And there is supposed to be a list.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now, despite all the potential suspects and motives uncovered in their investigation into especially into the dealings at Apotex and the countless hours invested in taking witness statements, by the end of 2018, detectives were no closer to finding the Sherman's killer than they were on day one. The team of private investigators hired by the Sherman family was also extremely unsuccessful in finding any kind of lead. According to journalist Matthew Campbell, the case was a series of contradictions. On the one hand, there was the obviously personal nature of the murders, quote, painful, terrifying and indicating a passionate desire to see them suffer.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And it really was that. But he said, on the other hand, the tidiness of the crime scene and the lack of evidence left behind suggested the work of a dispassionate professional, someone who had done this. And he wrote with little concrete information available. Friends and colleagues have project projected a tangle of theories into the void, speculating variously about the culpability of rival drug makers, disgruntled ex employees and gangsters. Oh, fuck. Now, amidst all the wild speculation from the public, investigators were tight lipped about the homicide squad's investigation. By then the spring of 2019, the once massive team of investigators assigned to the case had been whittled down to just five detectives working full time on it. Most of their time was spent digging through a seemingly endless number of electronic documents and correspondence. But eventually that paid off. Okay. In April, homicide detectives reported that they had, quote, an idea of what happened to the Shermans. But they not only refused to share the theory with the press, they actually went so far as to petition a judge to get all public documents related to the case sealed.

[Ash]

Well, that makes you wonder how fucking big that goes. Yeah, like who, who's that in the center of that theory?

[Elena]

Detective Dennis Yim said, I think everyone, everything needs to be sealed. Because if the information were to be revealed, potential suspects would take steps to get rid of other evidence.

[Ash]

Oh yeah, more espionage.

[Elena]

Now the contents of these documents would remain sealed and detectives theories as to what happened appeared to go nowhere. By the end of 2019, the detectives, private detectives hired by the Sherman family, closed their case, citing a lack of evidence or new information. They just said, we can't move forward.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

The Toronto police also started to rethink their approach as the case was getting colder and colder. Rather than pursuing new leads or witnesses, they shifted their attention to the surveillance video footage taken from the security cameras that were around the home. Like in the home.

[Ash]

Oh, they. So they did have some in the home?

[Elena]

Only in some places, I think.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

So they were trying to review them for anything, but I don't think they never said that anything was on them when asked. A spokesperson for the Toronto Police Department told reporters, quote, the investigation is very active, but they said it was by no means in the final stages. Okay. I don't know what that means. Whether or not the case was truly very active is unknown, but if it was, it wouldn't stay that way for much longer. As the months went on, the case went completely cold. Fuck. It remained an active case in the technical sense, at least one investigator assigned to it, but it was, for all intents and purposes, regarded largely as pretty inactive. Now, it turned out that the 2020 statement from the Toronto Police indicating the case was still active was to be the last the agency would make for some time. And in the absence of official statements from investigators, theories from the public just continued to flourish. Now, there had always been theories around the murders being linked to financial problems at Apotex, which were strengthened by the release of previously sealed documents released in 2021. Among other things, the documents showed that the company was facing a $500 million lawsuit and had very recently laid off several employees as a result of financial downturn. Now, according to an executive at Apotex, the company's financial trouble wasn't likely to have anything to do with the murders. They said Barry would not be phased by Apotex's financial situation, as Apotex was only one part of Sherman's holdings and they have other money. Okay. By 2025, the remaining detective on the case, Dennis Yim. He's still on it. Admitted that the investigation had essentially led nowhere. He said, I'm playing blind. I don't know where I am on the field.

[Ash]

What the fuck?

[Elena]

Although Yim seemed willing to admit a lack of progress on the case, after eight years, he remained as silent on details as the police force had ever been. When asked whether he could elaborate on rumors that they had a, quote, person of interest in the murders, he said. He said, I can't comment on that.

[Ash]

So that's a yes.

[Elena]

The absence of statements and information from investigators allowed, obviously, for conspiracy theories and speculation around the case to flourish.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah.

[Elena]

At the same time, reports like Kevin Donovan. Reporters like Kevin Donovan, who had covered the case since the beginning, have done their best to fill in the gaps in the timeline, often to the frustration and annoyance of investigators.

[Ash]

Also because they're trying to keep everybody quiet.

[Elena]

For instance, during his investigation, Kevin Donovan. Donovan discovered evidence that Honey Sherman had tried to call 911 during the attack.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

But the call failed to go through. So her phone being face down on the bathroom floor or a phone being face down on the floor. Oh, my God. That was probably hers.

[Ash]

Oh, that's awful.

[Elena]

So she might have been, like, attacked in the bathroom, and that was upstairs.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

So what makes me is, like, they obviously came in the house, and I think they surprised them.

[Ash]

Yeah. Ambushed them.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now, according to Donovan, quote, police won't answer questions about this, but documents confirm police did conduct tests of the 911 service in relation to the Sherman investigation.

[Ash]

That's giving Scarpetta.

[Elena]

Yeah, it is. Now, Detective Dennis Yim is confident the case will be solved. He said, I believe we have knowledge to solve this case. That's what he told a reporter in late 2025.

[Ash]

It's been almost 10 years, brother.

[Elena]

Unfortunately, for the time being. How and when that day will come is anyone's guess. That's the last we have. That's it. That's it. We have no clue what happened.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

What?

[Elena]

We have no clue what happened.

[Ash]

Figured you're just gonna leave me there.

[Elena]

I'm so sorry, but that. It's too bizarre to not talk about. And I'm. Maybe they will solve this someday and we can do an updated thing.

[Ash]

But, like, for him to say he's confident, I. I feel they don't always say that.

[Elena]

I'm just like, what? Yeah, like, what?

[Ash]

I have. So I have so many questions.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Interesting.

[Elena]

Yeah. I think the family. The Sherman family has offered, like, a pretty substantial reward at one point for information. But, yeah, it's. It's really wild.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And I think, yeah, there's, like, they're still looking into security cameras. They're still looking into the neighborhood. Security cameras, I believe I was gonna say. Did other people have cameras? I don't think they found anything, like, compelling. Too wild.

[Ash]

And I'm like, now, did they find

[Elena]

anything on the bodies or, like, on their clothes? It was super clean. That's why they think it was, like, a professional job.

[Ash]

Well, not only that, it also makes you wonder, like, yeah, sure, it could be professional. And, like, it makes sense with all the money and all the, like, spooky stuff tied to it. But then it makes you wonder, did somebody know that this cleaning schedule.

[Elena]

Did they know that the cleaning people

[Ash]

were going to be coming the very next day?

[Elena]

That's. That's what I wonder, like, if they had been watching. They figured out the routine. They knew they would come, and they put them. They put berry and honey in a place in the house that would take a while. Cause it's in the basement. Yeah, it's in a place that, like she said, you had to press the button to get into. It had a secure. It had, like, a safety door. So it's somewhere where people wouldn't just normally go to first, which is. They wouldn't be found for a while.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So it's like the cleaners start at the top and they go to the bottom. And I think that's. Generally. It makes sense that a cleaner would go from top to bottom, because otherwise you're going to traipse through the whole

[Ash]

house and floor, like, backwards.

[Elena]

So they put them on the bottom floor because they knew eventually, after cleaning any evidence out of the house, that they would eventually find them. But by that time, at that point,

[Ash]

you've cleaned everything up.

[Elena]

I really wonder about that. Like, it's part of it.

[Ash]

It definitely does to me, at least. But then. But this. It goes so deep with all the possible enemies and all the financial ties and, you know, unfortunately, like, criminal ties that. That might not even have anything to do with it. Yeah, I can understand why this would be, like, a super frustrating case to Investigate.

[Elena]

It must. Because they're just that, like you said, that the different ties in the business world because it's so many different businesses, so varied. That's the thing. It's so varied that it would just be impossible. You know what, though?

[Ash]

Like, we do have a way of covering a case, and then it's like this weird phenomenon.

[Elena]

So maybe the universe is just like. I don't know. We'll figure it out now. Yeah, I hope so, you know?

[Ash]

Wow. Well, let me give you a fun fact.

[Elena]

Yeah. Wow. This is cool.

[Ash]

Sleep researchers calculate that humans spend about two hours dreaming every night, which adds up to five to seven years on over an average human lifespan.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

So you dream for six years of your life.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

And that kind of cool.

[Elena]

That is crazy beautiful. I love that.

[Ash]

Hope you're not having nightmares, though.

[Elena]

I love that a lot.

[Ash]

Imagine if you have just, like, a lot of nightmares.

[Elena]

That would suck.

[Ash]

And you just do that for, like, six years.

[Elena]

Yeah, that would really suck.

[Ash]

That's not fun. So, like, have good dreams. Okay.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Have good dreams, y'. All.

[Elena]

Please. Sweet dreams, y'.

[Ash]

All. All right, well, with that being said,

[Elena]

we hope you keep listening, and we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you have

[Ash]

nightmares for six years, because that'd be brutal. And not so weird that this case doesn't get solved, because I have a lot of questions and I would like answers, please.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

What the actual.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Elena]

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. From roof repair to emergency plumbing and more.

[Ash]

When you use Angie for your home

[Elena]

projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust, find a pro for your [e-mail].