The Watts Family Murders (Part 1)

Summary

Morbid Podcast: “The Watts Family Murders (Part 1)”

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Airdate: May 7, 2026

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Overview:

This episode dives deep into the harrowing case of Chris Watts, who murdered his pregnant wife Shanann and their two young daughters, Bella and Celeste, in 2018. Ash and Alaina focus on the family’s background and marriage, Chris and Shanann’s personalities and relationship dynamics, the building financial and interpersonal stressors, and the chilling lead-up to the murders. True to Morbid style, the grim content is interwoven with banter, dark humor, and pointed outrage at Watts’ actions and persona.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Reluctance to Cover the Case

• The hosts discuss (03:10) how emotionally difficult this case is to cover, with both admitting they hesitated because of the gruesomeness and involvement of children.
• Quote: “If you can kill your own three children, one of which was unborn, and your own wife while pregnant...there's not a good bone in your—there's nothing good about you." – Ash (09:25)

2. Chris Watts’ Background & Personality

• Chris was a withdrawn, “average” student, deeply obsessed with cars, with few friends (08:00–14:00).
• Close with his father but had little social or romantic experience.
• Hosts note his “empty husk” persona and label him as a classic “loser”—emotionally vacant and socially awkward.
• Quote: “He’s one of those guys that if you blew wind through his ear it would come out the other side.” – Alaina (11:00)

3. Shanann’s Early Life & First Marriage

• Outgoing, social, and ambitious NJ native; married young and amicably divorced (16:46).
• Triumphed in sales and built a 4,000 sq. ft home on her own (20:30).
• Diagnosed with lupus, which led to major health and emotional challenges.

4. Shanann & Chris: Relationship Origin

• Met through a Facebook friend suggestion, initially lacked chemistry (22:00).
• Chris was persistent, eventually convincing her to date him, with his organization supporting Shanann’s health needs (28:00).
• Chris fit into her social circle, and they relocated to Colorado for a fresh start.

5. Family Tensions & Early Red Flags

• Chris’s family, especially his mother Cindy, clashed with Shanann (30:00–36:00).
• Tension at engagement and wedding, with Watts’ family skipping the wedding, fueling ongoing arguments and resentments.
• Quote: “His own parents didn't go to his wedding? Nope.” – Ash (39:57)
• Shanann’s mother’s prescient worry: “I knew she was going to be a thorn in the marriage.” (30:50)

6. Early Marriage, Children, and Public Perception

• Frequent social media posts painted a hyper-happy family image, although financial and emotional strains intensified (42:15).
• First daughter Bella is born, and the couple’s finances deteriorate further, leading them to bankruptcy (54:00).
• Celeste (“Cece”) was born with a medical condition requiring even more resources and effort from Shanann.

7. Financial Struggles & Multi-Level Marketing

• Shanann excelled at and leaned into selling Thrive, an energy supplement, engrossing Chris in the business for appearances (54:41).
• Hosts note how Chris’s involvement was half-hearted and highlight his lack of charisma (56:00).
• Social media presence increased to maintain a “happy couple” front, despite mounting problems.

8. Chris’s Affair with Nicole Kessinger

• Chris begins an affair with coworker Nikki in summer 2018, lying about being separated, and hiding communications through secret apps and work phones (58:29).
• Both Chris and Nikki begin Googling relationship milestones and “man I’m having an affair with says he is leaving his wife” (68:19–68:52).
• Memorable Quote:
  • “Why are you asking Google what do you feel when someone says I love you?” – Alaina (69:05)
  • “Because he’s not a human being, like he’s a lizard person.” – Alaina (23:34)
• Nikki obsessively searches Shanann’s and Chris’s social media.

9. The Collapse of the Marriage

• While Shanann is away with the kids, Chris spends all his free time with Nikki, enjoying “the freest he’d ever felt,” and further disconnects from his family (72:15).
• Shanann, upon returning, pleads for answers, but Chris remains cold and distant; he’s preoccupied with trivialities (e.g., Googling the Earth–Moon distance during Shanann’s heartfelt texts) (78:50–79:39).
• Both sides show a pattern of frantic searching—Shanann for therapy resources, Chris and Nikki for ways to make their affair “official” (80:40).

10. Lead-Up to the Murders

• Chris’s coldness, the couple’s emotional distance, and his overt focus on the affair become increasingly visible, including hiding intimate photos in a calculator vault app (82:11).
• Shanann buys books on rekindling marriage, which Chris throws away (83:20).
• Nicole Kessinger searches “marrying your mistress” (80:12).
• Chris starts using his credit card on dates with Nikki, signaling, in the hosts’ view, that he “didn’t plan for it to be a problem anymore” (84:26).
• Quote: “At what point did he decide to murder her? ... Feels like it might have been here.” – Ash (85:06)

11. The Disappearance and Swift Investigation

• Shanann returns home late after a work trip (88:42). Her friend Nicole Atkinson immediately raises alarm the next morning, leading to a welfare check; her shoes, car, and phone are still at home.
• Chris gives vague, deflecting answers and tries to prevent police involvement (90:17–91:13).
• Shanann’s friends and neighbors—especially Nate, who had surveillance footage—apply intense pressure right away (97:00).
• Nate’s footage shows Chris at suspicious times; Chris acts anxious and provides awkward, over-detailed explanations about “loading tools” (98:39–100:36).

12. Chris’s Public Interview

• Chris does a notorious TV interview acting disconnected, awkward, and smiling inappropriately, showing "duper's delight" (112:46–117:02).
  • Swallowing/gulping; tight-lipped; avoiding eye contact; forced self-soothing behaviors.
  • When asked what he misses about his kids, he mentions trivialities (telling them not to eat dessert, watching TV alone), not emotional bonds (119:04).
  • Quote: “He literally says ‘I just want them back’ and the most genuine smile crosses right into his eyes…” – Alaina (120:45)
• Both hosts and their families recall immediately suspecting Chris from his demeanor.

13. Community & Family Reactions

• Contrast between Chris’s minimal support system and Shanann’s strong, persistent friend group.
• Shanann’s mother (Sandy) had earlier warned him not to give interviews—afterwards, she’s thankful his performance was so damning.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [09:25] Ash: "If you can kill your own three children, one of which was unborn, and your own wife while pregnant...there's not a good bone in your—there's nothing good about you."
• [11:00] Alaina: "He’s one of those guys that if you blew wind through his ear it would come out the other side.”
• [23:34] Alaina: “Because he’s not a human being, like, he’s a lizard person.”
• [30:50] Shanann’s mom, as quoted: “I knew she was going to be a thorn in the marriage.”
• [39:57] Ash: “His own parents didn't go to his wedding? Nope.”
• [68:19] Alaina: “July 24th, Nicole Googled ‘man I'm having an affair with says he is leaving his wife.’ On July 25th, Chris Googles ‘when to say I love you… what do you feel when someone says I love you?’”
• [69:05] Alaina: “Why are you asking what human emotions feel like?”
• [69:46] Alaina: “...as a grown person who has been in loving relationships...what?”
• [76:43] Ash: “What the—he didn't come home to his pregnant wife and two children. That’s...”
• [79:07] Alaina: “Chris Watts was googling the distance between moon and Earth. His pregnant wife is spilling her heart out to him…”
• [85:06] Ash (on the moment of Chris’s decision): “Feels like it might have been here.”
• [98:13] Alaina: “His hands are folded on top of his head and extended...he’s losing it.”
• [112:51] Ash: “If you pause, he will be full blown smiling ear to ear at certain points [of the TV interview].”
• [120:59] Alaina: “He literally says, ‘I just want them back’ and the most genuine smile crosses right into his eyes.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:00 – 10:00: Host reflections, Chris’s early background
• 16:00 – 22:00: Shanann’s first marriage, life changes, lupus diagnosis
• 28:00 – 36:00: Early relationship, family tension, moving to Colorado
• 54:00 – 58:00: Financial issues, MLM/Thrive sales, social media
• 58:30 – 68:30: Affair with Nicole Kessinger
• 72:00 – 79:00: Shanann’s realization, emotional distance, Chris’s coldness
• 97:00 – 105:50: Discovery of disappearance, neighbor surveillance footage, body language
• 112:46 – 121:00: Chris’s damning public interview analysis

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Additional Highlights

• Repeated references to the public discovery documents (the full case file/transcript), which the hosts encourage listeners to consult for firsthand insight.
• The relentless, proactive involvement of Shanann’s friends and neighbor Nate is credited for the swift investigation and exposure of Chris’s lies.
• Emotional impact: Both hosts are often viscerally outraged and openly disparaging of Chris, stressing the utter lack of humanity in his actions and demeanor.
• Recurring humor: Chris is frequently described as a "loser," "wet rag," "empty husk," and “sexy empanada” (an absurd pet name uncovered in text records), reflecting the hosts’ unique dark comedic angle even in the face of horrendous subject matter.
• Discussion of “duper’s delight” and body language cues for listeners interested in criminal psychology.
• The final segments set up for Part Two, which will cover Chris’s confession, the polygraph test, and the paranormal elements reported around the case.

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Conclusion

The episode delivers Morbid’s signature blend of in-depth research, chilling true crime storytelling, and emotional, comedic commentary. With extensive background, sharp observations, and passionate condemnation of Chris Watts, Ash and Alaina set the groundwork for the second part of this thorough series – laying bare how the Watts’ seemingly picture-perfect life unraveled into one of the most notorious family annihilation cases in modern American true crime.

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Next Episode Preview:
Part Two will cover the unraveling of Chris’s deception, his interrogation and confession, as well as the paranormal aspects reported in the aftermath.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I'm Ash. And I'm Elena.

[A]

And this is morbid.

[B]

This is indeed very morbid today.

[A]

Yeah. Elena has been sifting through discovery documents for the last six hours.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I did it all night last night, too. And I had weird dreams because of it.

[A]

I didn't even sift through discovery documents. I just knew that we were doing this case, so I was kind of like watching. Obviously, you know, this is the Chris Watts case, because you've clicked on it.

[B]

Yeah. Part one of the Chris Watts case. Part one.

[A]

We watched some of the paranormal stuff that goes along with this case.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And there was one thing in that video that I couldn't stop thinking about last night. I woke up, like, multiple times throughout

[B]

the night last night. Yeah. See, and I've been. So we. I went through it a little bit. We'll talk about it in part two, the paranormal aspects of it, because there is some strange ones. But I was like, more going into, like, the. The interviews, like before he admitted to what he did. And that'll you up.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And just looking at those. Those discovery documents which we'll link in the show notes. You can all look at them. You can all look at every goddamn text that was sent between him and Shannan, between him and his mistress Nicole. I mean, it's.

[A]

There's a lot to be seen.

[B]

There's a lot to be seen and a lot of. Just complete lack of humanity on his part, which is really upsetting to see. Yeah. I always swore I wasn't gonna do this case because the details are very upsetting. But I know you guys really want this case.

[A]

This is one of our most highly requested cases.

[B]

And I'm, you know, I'm doing this for you. I also knew this was going to be one of those cases that just ate me up like that I could not stop getting deeper and deeper into. And that has happened.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm gonna look forward to disconnect. This is like the Morse murders case for me, where it's like, I'm really looking forward to the end of it, where I can Say bye. Yeah. Because. Oh my goodness. Yeah. But yeah, so that's what we'll be doing today. But before we get to that, before we get to all the horror and terrible shit, if you haven't gotten your tickets to the live Show In June, June 27, New York City Radio City Music Hall.

[A]

We're gonna be there.

[B]

It's gonna be big.

[A]

It's gonna be huge.

[B]

And there's only so many tickets left. We're getting to that end point and I want you guys to come and have fun because it's one night only. We got a cool theme in mind. We have cool merch.

[A]

We just had a whole meeting about the merch and it's killer.

[B]

This merch is gonna be killer. I'm really. And it's only going to be at the show.

[A]

Only at the show. You can only get.

[B]

Sure you get your tickets. It's gonna be fun, I promise you. We're.

[A]

Oh, we also booked a sick.

[B]

Yeah, we got a special guest.

[A]

We have a special guest that's gonna blow your goddamn socks off.

[B]

That's true. So it's gonna be a lot of fun.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah. And if you haven't pre ordered the Butcher Legacy yet, what are you doing, honey?

[A]

Oh, and if you're looking for more signed copies.

[B]

Oh, yeah, there's still more.

[A]

People are.

[B]

Yeah. Because I know you guys were looking for them and I told you I'll keep signing them as long as my hand works, it's on. So as long as my hand is on my body, I'll keep signing them for you as long as you want them. And so you can get them at Premier Collectibles. There's some signed ones. And I promise you I'm signing them right here. Yes. I watch my hand every day. Each one. So I always say, wow, that's a lot of signing going on. I always say, wow.

[A]

I always say, wow, honey.

[B]

But just to be clear, because I know some people are like, do you really sign them? I really do. There will never be a mass produced signature of mine. So I feel like you'd also like be able to tell, but yeah, that'd be insane. But yeah. Anyway, enjoy that and pre order it if you want, and you should. It's fun. And now we're gonna get into this. I'm gonna. I'm gonna try not to get too worked up here. Good luck with that. Yesterday I was so worked up and I was just talking to everybody in the room.

[A]

I'm gonna feel worked up because I felt worked up about. Yeah, I don't know, like, all of the ins and outs of this case. I avoided it a lot because you probably don't. Obviously children are involved, so I hate that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, I'll get outraged right along with you.

[B]

Yeah. And everything is going to be. I mean, everything's right in that discovery document that's available for you to take a peek through. It's very long, obviously, but it's all there. So this is all the official. Now let's start with who Chris Watts is, unfortunately. Do we have to? I think we have to because you gotta know who this is. You gotta know who this piece of is. So he was born May 16, 1985. Hate that. He was born in the same year as me. I know.

[A]

Taurus, too. I usually love a Taurus.

[B]

Not this one. No, not this one. He was born in Fayetteville, North Carolina. He was the second to two children born to Ronnie and Cindy Watts, who I have so many feelings about, but I'm not going to spill all of them.

[A]

Keep it quiet. But you, you can feel what you will.

[B]

That's just feelings, you know, Just a feeling. Growing up, he was very close to his dad. They had. They shared a love of sports and cars, like, you know, that kind of thing. Dude stuff. Very. Just dude bros. Sports and cars. All right. But Chris's relationship with his father was built on more than just these shared interests. They had very similar personalities. And you can see even now that they still, like, not the murderous personality, obviously, but I mean, like, he's a very quiet, like, subdued guy for the most part. And his dad seems a little bit like that as well. So I think what everybody said around them was that Chris felt like he was understood by his dad because they were kind of the same. He was like an average student. He was a good athlete. I fucking hate him. Yeah, he. He didn't do anything remarkable, like.

[A]

I wouldn't think so.

[B]

Nothing to write home about. He was super shy, so he didn't really, like, stand out in any way. And he just kind of flew under the radar because he was a fucking loser. Yeah. But I'm going to be so mean.

[A]

He killed him.

[B]

I just need you to that if you are one of those girls who like, writes to him in prison or

[A]

you're going to want to turn off,

[B]

you're going to want to turn this off and you're going to want to go seek some real help. Because this man, after reading more and more about him, I think is one of the biggest pieces of shit I have ever come across. In my entire existence of research.

[A]

If you can kill your own three children, one of which was unborn, and your own wife while pregnant with one of those children, there's not a good bone in your. There's nothing good about you.

[B]

No.

[A]

And there never was.

[B]

And the details of it all are just beyond human comprehension. And how he reacted to all this should horrify you to your very core. It really should. Yeah. But when he got to high school, you know, he had become pretty withdrawn. Like, he was always very quiet and withdrawn. And it wasn't like there something happened that is on record that made this happen. He just was always like that. That's weird. And he was kind of aloof as a teenager. He was kind of aloof as an adult, too. He didn't give a fuck about anything, as evidenced by his interview when his family was, quote, unquote, missing. And don't worry, we'll get into that. His sister Jamie said he didn't go out with friends. I was more of a social butterfly. And he was quiet and interested in mechanics and cars. He was just a focused person. And I think that just means, like, he was a piece of shit in the making. Yeah. It wasn't until he enrolled in an automotive technology class that he started to find, like, some kind of confidence. His love of cars and his deep knowledge of NASCAR impressed the teacher of the class, Joe Duty. Who. And it's D U T E Y okay to stifle all of your giggles. He took Chris under his wing and kind of became like a mentor to him. The teacher said, it's hard to find a more perfect kid. I'd argue it's not.

[A]

It'd be super easy.

[B]

I think that's. That's me. But he said he was in the top 10% of students I ever had. And that was in the automotive technology class, not in the school. Okay. Don't want to give him any undue accolades here.

[A]

Don't be doing that.

[B]

Also this. The teacher, Mr. Doody, said he could see that Chris struggled socially. And he had very few friends at the time. That kind of remains something through his life. As you'll see, not too many people were willing to go to bat for Mr. Watts here.

[A]

Good.

[B]

Throughout his life. So I think mom and dad were really his, like, number one people who were gonna go bat for him.

[A]

Great.

[B]

So the teacher said many times I would look at him and think what's going on in his head. It was like the wheels were spinning. But he was by himself.

[A]

That's a loaded question.

[B]

They Said who? You don't want to know what's going on in his head. Yeah.

[A]

I wonder what was going on in his head even back then.

[B]

Probably a whole lot of nothing. Yeah. Honestly, I. He seems like one of those dudes. If you watch any interview with him, he's like one of those guys that if, like, if you like blew wind through his ear, it would like come out the other side like just freely like he just. Nothing.

[A]

Lights are out, but no one's home.

[B]

Yeah, like just not a lot going on now. After graduating from high school, his passion for cars led him to enroll at the NASCAR Technical Institute in Morrisville, North Carolina. It was a NASCAR sponsored program that specialized in motorsports and like automotive training.

[A]

Cars.

[B]

Just cars. He also found a part time job. Look. Working at a car dealership.

[A]

Cars.

[B]

Because Cars. And when he wasn't in class or at work, he was using his free time to study cars.

[A]

Cars.

[B]

So you have to do.

[A]

You have to.

[B]

Cars. Cars.

[A]

You have to say it like Andy Belfler from True Blood.

[B]

From True Blood. I don't know if you're picking up on something here. All he cared about was cars. That's all he had. That's all he had.

[A]

He had three looks.

[B]

Yeah, that's it.

[A]

Just cars. Cars, Cars, cars. NASCAR car school and a dealership.

[B]

That's it. Loser. His former roommate Richard Hodges said he was very dedicated to his work on cars and wasn't the kind of guy that went out and partied because he was too busy with cars. But he eventually finished the NASCAR program and started a full time job as a mechanic. It wasn't exactly the exciting career in NASCAR that he thought he was going to be going forth with.

[A]

Well, he's mediocre so.

[B]

But he made decent money. He enjoyed the work. Says because he loves a car. So he didn't complain and he just kind of like thought he would move up someday. Which is how you should go into something like that. You start at the bottom.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You work your way up. Around the same time, he surprised everyone by starting his first romantic relationship with a car. I would have thought so. But no, unfortunately, even the cars were like, no, thank you sir. But he's so. This is how weird he was that everybody was like, wait, by all accounts, like again, I wasn't there. I don't know this man. But by all accounts this is how like off put, like a little aloof and just like shy and not and like withdrawn. He was that everyone was like, you're going out with a girl, like what Another human? Are you sure? Like another human. And you are gonna hang out like that's how off he was. That's bleak. But, yeah. He started his first romantic relationship, and the woman Chris was dating had just come out of a bad marriage, and he never brought her around to meet his family or his co workers or friends.

[A]

So she existed, though.

[B]

I guess she existed. Chris later said I was helping her to get through her divorce, and then she went off with someone else. Oh. And I said, that checks.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Also, I'd like to point out right now. So you do know what divorce is?

[A]

Yup.

[B]

So you. You have seen the basis of divorce? Because Chris Watts, why the fuck didn't you just divorce your wife? I will never understand this as long as I live.

[A]

There's so many cases.

[B]

You did know what a divorce was.

[A]

There's so many cases where it's like, why did you not just separate and divorce?

[B]

Truly. Truly.

[A]

Obviously, it's like, I know it's complicated. I know there's money.

[B]

You don't need to explain it to us. We know what.

[A]

It's tough. I'm a child of divorce. I get it. It sucks for, like, 18 whole years,

[B]

but it's a hell of a lot better than murdering your pregnant wife and your two children, I would say. Yep. I know it's tough.

[A]

I will.

[B]

But it's not that tough.

[A]

I will stand 12 toes down.

[B]

Yeah. That. It's better than murder. It's better than family annihilation. And I think if you can't agree on that, it's a problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But between his failure to land the job of his dreams and the messy end to his first real relationship, he was feeling discouraged. And he wasn't really, like, psyched to go date again because he was like, I got her through this divorce, and then she just kind of went off with someone else.

[A]

And she's not a car.

[B]

And she's not a car. But his cousin Cindy, not to be confused with his mama, Cindy, was able to convince Chris to send a Facebook friend request to one of his. Her co workers named Shanann. And her maiden name, I believe it's pronounced Zootcheck. Okay. I looked it up many, many times. But obviously for the rest, most of the story, she unfortunately goes by Shanann Watts.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like, Chris, Shanann was also just coming off of a bad breakup, and Cindy thought the two of them might hit it off. They have something in common there. Yeah. In retrospect, it is a little weird that she thought that they were going to get along because they were Kind of like very obvious opposites. Okay. And obviously that can work. Yeah. So maybe that's what she was thinking. Maybe. Chris was very quiet, shy, reserved, withdrawn. Like we've said, Shanann was friendly. She was gregarious. She was outgoing. Like, she was just. She was pizzazz, you know? Yeah. Shannan had grown up in New Jersey, but moved to North Carolina in the late 1990s when her father was out of work.

[A]

Love one thing I love is a Jersey girl.

[B]

A Jersey trans.

[A]

Love a Jersey girl.

[B]

Yeah, we love it. And the move meant a school for Shannan, and she started attending Pine Crest High School. This was a progressive school with a focus on the arts. Okay, cool. In that supportive and collaborative environment, she kind of thrived and really came into her own. She developed a large circle of friends. She excelled socially. She excelled academically. Unlike Chris, who was just a literal nothing and no one would probably remember him.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Shannan was, like, just killing it. She was thriving. Love that. And she maintained big, close groups of girlfriends, especially her entire life, which says so much about somebody.

[A]

A lot of, like, I know, like, some of the details about the way that her friends just rode for her. And that says so much about her.

[B]

It cannot be stressed enough how much her friends fucking rode for her and loved her. Like, her friends. Like, we're going to get into it. They are next, them and Nate, her neighbor. Heroes. This whole situation, in my opinion, same. Okay. So, like, I think her friends were on it. So again, she developed this huge circle of friends. She was really thriving. Her friend Colby said she was one of the sweetest girls you could ever encounter. In her senior year, she started dating Leonard King, another Pine Crest student. And the relationship moved pretty fast. Like, faster than anyone expected. Before the end of the school year, they were engaged.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And they were discussing, like, future plans. Colby said she was adamant about starting her life and having a family. And a few months after graduation, they got married. Wow. Now, the marriage started out great, but soon the realities of getting married right outside of high school started creeping in, which, obviously, this works for some people, but I don't doubt that there's a ton of extra stressors that come from that, because you're not exactly established yet. Right. Um, so if you're not meant to be, I don't think it's gonna work. It's gonna be the thing that kind of pressure tests your relationship. After graduation, Shannan started college and Leonard joined the Army. But when their cost of living went up and they couldn't afford life on one single income, Shannan dropped out of school and got a job selling cell phones. Although it wasn't what she wanted for herself at the time, she excelled in sales because of her personality.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And within a few years, she was managing the store. Wow. And handling all the administrative duties. Good. For which I could.

[A]

Nightmare.

[B]

It's my nightmare. I could never. Her success at the cell phone store led to the store's owner to hire her for his new company. Wow. This company was called the Dirty South.

[A]

Absolutely iconic.

[B]

It was an automobile customization company that catered to high end clientele.

[A]

For their cars.

[B]

For their cars. If it was possible to identify the point where Leonard and Shannan's marriage kind of started to fall apart, it was probably when she took that job at Dirty South. At the time, she was managing the cell phone store and the new business, often traveling the 130 miles between the two in the same day. Oh, wow.

[A]

That's a lot.

[B]

So they were not really seeing a lot of each other. Just wasn't working. They tried couples counseling and various other ways to save their marriage. They did give it a go. You know, they did what they could, but in. By 2007, too much damage had been done and they divorced. Shannan later told a friend, I went through a real awful divorce. And that relationship took a lot from me. It literally took everything I had to start financially all over.

[A]

That's brutal.

[B]

But Shannan refused to let the experience drag her down. She continued working hard at her job. She enrolled in some night classes at Queen's University. And she started looking for property in Charlotte where she could start building her own dream home.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

She was making money. Let's go. Because she was real good at sales.

[A]

We love an independent lady.

[B]

And she's. She was hustling. A few years later, she signed off on all the mortgage paperwork and started construction on what would be a 4,000 square foot, 12 room home with four bedrooms and four bathrooms. Wow. That she was doing incredible. Her own.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. So the excitement of all this, becoming a homeowner, starting a new life, it was soon offset by long periods where she was feeling really exhausted and kind of unwell. Oh. And she was starting to notice it. In 2010, she finally went to see a doctor and she was diagnosed with lupus. Oh. It's an autoimmune disease where the body's immune system attacks its own organs and tissues. Yeah. Lupus is no joke. Lupus sucks. She later said, when they diagnosed me with lupus, I was lost. Oh. She didn't know what it was. Or what to expect. So, of course, she did what any of us would do. She went to the Internet and tried to search it up, and she was immediately terrified by what she found online. But it was during this period that Shannan received the friend request from Chris Watts. Having recently come out of a bad marriage followed by chronic health problems, she wasn't exactly interested in getting to know anyone at this point, regardless of how well her co worker, Cindy, thought they would get along. So she kind of just ignored it. She was like, no. And it's like, oh, gosh, I just wish she had forever ignored it. I know. But a few months later, when a second message from Chris appeared in her inbox, she figured she might as well give him a chance. And a few weeks later, they met for their first date at the Epicenter, which is an upscale dining and entertainment place in downtown Charlotte. Okay. Contrary to what Cindy had told them, both, they had very little in common, and they had a complete lack of chemistry on this first.

[A]

I mean, from everything you've described about each of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I don't see it personally.

[B]

Anything I've seen of him, I'm like a wet rag. Has a bigger personality than he does. Like, you're. I don't. I don't blame her for being like, what the is this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Despite the disappointing evening, though, Chris did manage. He pursued. Okay. He managed to convince Shannan to give him another chance, and a few days later, they attended a concert together. Okay. He later said, I was persistent trying to pursue her. Wow. Which does become a theme, a thing for him. He becomes obsessed with women. He becomes focused solely on women. We'll see it with his mistress, Nicole. We'll see it with Shannan. We'll see it with. Later, when he becomes interested in. In prison, he becomes very obsessive with somebody because he's a loser, probably. But despite the failure of the previous date, he found himself really drawn to Shanann and was determined to convince her that they were a good match.

[A]

If you have to convince somebody that you're a good match, I'm sorry, you're not.

[B]

Yeah. It took some time, but eventually he did win her over. And with a. In a few months, she was very happy with him and she was calling him the man of her dreams. Wow.

[A]

So he. It sounds like he tried to become what she wanted.

[B]

Yeah. Like, he tried to.

[A]

Maybe he emulated a little bit qualities and did some Google searches of how to act.

[B]

Yeah. Because as we'll see later, he literally has to Google what does someone Feel when they tell. When you tell them you love them. Yeah, because he literally doesn't know. Yeah. Because he's not a human being. Like, he's a lizard person. That doesn't. It doesn't make any sense. I'm sure he was googling. What does human boy say to girl? Like, he is not a real thing.

[A]

He's, like, watching, like, rom coms and taking notes.

[B]

He's scary as hell. And I'm sure that he was able to, because one thing about these scary as hell, they concern people who are just empty husks that just look to fill themselves with other people's ideas of emotions.

[A]

They can blend.

[B]

They can manipulate, too. And they become for you what you need or want because that's how they want to get you. But deep down, they are not that. So then they can't live up to that. That fake thing that they've created.

[A]

They can't continue on like that.

[B]

Yeah. And then it becomes dangerous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So she had no way of knowing that this man is just this empty husk of that is going to crumble.

[A]

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[B]

Now over time, the various ways that they were compatible started to show themselves, which made it a little easier to like, go down this path of like, maybe we are meant for each other. Yeah. Because managing her lupus meant relying on a lot of medications and attending a lot of doctors appointments and like, specialist appointments. Yeah. And Shannan was not. She was a lot of things, but she was never a very well organized person. We all have our, you know, not either sister and Chris's lifelong compulsive Hyper organization, which, yeah, it did come in handy here because before long, he would manage her medications for her. He would kind of keep her doctor schedule under control, remind her, you got to take your meds or, like, you got to go to this doctor's appointment, which at first glance, you would look at and say, wow, that's really kind and, like, thoughtful, and that's somebody who cares about you.

[A]

It's actually insane saying that he used to manage her doctor's appointments. We'll get there.

[B]

We'll get there. So Shannan, meanwhile, made up for Chris's social struggles and deficiencies, of which he had plenty. She introduced him to her friends and, like, included him in all their activities. Kind of, like gave him a friend group, essentially. And before long, Chris moved into Shannan's house and everything. That everyone kind of started to feel pretty confident that, like, this might work out. Like, I think they're actually working together. And as Chris was slowly but surely becoming integrated into Shannan's life, some people, especially Chris's family, were not entirely on board with this. They did not feel like they were

[A]

a good fit for each other, just, like, immediately.

[B]

Yeah, okay. Also, I want to remind you, these are two grown adults, so no one gives a flying. If you think that they're fit for each other. They gotta figure that out.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Just putting that out there. For anybody who thinks that this is. This makes sense. Chris's sister Jamie said, we met and we weren't sure. It's really not up to you. Okay. Because you're not in the relationship, but. Okay. When the families got together for the first time, Chris's parents were immediately suspicious of Shannan's lifestyle.

[A]

What?

[B]

They said it didn't seem possible that someone so young could afford such a lavish home.

[A]

Okay, well, she works her ass off.

[B]

Here's the thing. Just because your son is a loser.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Does not mean everyone is. Shannan worked her ass off. Yeah. And it's like, what do you. Some people do?

[A]

Work their asses off, others don't.

[B]

So she assumed. They assumed that she was reckless with money.

[A]

That's quite the assumption to me.

[B]

She built her dream world and two jobs, but she was.

[A]

And traveling 130 miles back and forth per day.

[B]

But she was reckless.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Then there was the fact that she had already been married and divorced by her mid-20s.

[A]

Who gives a fudge?

[B]

Everybody's. You clutch the pearls. Like, get a grip. But the biggest problem, at least as far as Chris's mother was concerned, was Shanann's mother Sandy. Oh. The two women clashed immediately. Really? And Sandy did not walk away from that meeting feeling good about potential for success here. Sandy later said, and I'd like to point out that Sandy was 100% correct here. Call her Nostradamus. She said, I knew she was going to be a thorn in the marriage and she was a mama.

[A]

Most mamas.

[B]

Yeah. No, no. And I think she was like, oh, you're going to be a problem.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Now, in 2011, Shannan's close. Two close. At the time, Gina and Charlie Dietz moved to Broomfield, Colorado. And within weeks, they were saying, shannan, you have to move here. They said, this fresh mountain air will be awesome for your lupus. I think it's going to help you. It's a beautiful area, like there. And she had just experienced a really bad flare up of the illness in the previous months.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So the idea of moving was appealing in that sense, but she had just finished building her dream house and things were going well with Chris. So she's like, I don't know, that's

[A]

enough that I want to just like up and leave. Right?

[B]

Yeah. That August, Chris and Shannan rented a house in Ocean Isle Beach, North Carolina, and invited family to spend some time at the beach with them. One afternoon a few days into the vacation, Chris approached Frank, who is Shannan's father, and told him he wanted to ask Shannan to marry him. Okay. But only if Frank gave his permission, not, you know, one to stand in the way of his daughter's happiness. Frank immediately gave his blessing and a short time later, Chris proposed to Shanann on the be and she said yes.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Well, at the time, yeah. Now, a few months later, Chris and Shannan flew to Colorado to visit Gina and Charlie. And it was the first time Shannan's friends had met her now fiance. And they were pleased that after such a disastrous relationship, the marriage, she had found someone who seemed, by all accounts, everyone said he seemed very devoted to her. Okay. Gina recalled, he was very doting, attentive, kind, but shy and introverted. They all say this. His mother says this with much ire in her voice that he was very doting on Shanae.

[A]

But you would think that you'd be proud of your son for being a doting husband. That's my opinion.

[B]

That's what I would think.

[A]

Like, if I had a son and he was a doting husband, I'd be like, hell yeah. I raised him right.

[B]

Yeah. Like hell yeah.

[A]

Take care of your lady.

[B]

Treat your partner like a fucking queen or King or whatever, you know? But it was during that trip that the question of moving to Colorado came up again. Gina was convinced it would be better for Shannan's health. And Chris didn't seem to have an opinion one way or another because he's an empty husk. Everybody like this. The idea is going to come up here and, like, you know, his mom likes to say it and stuff that. Look at any interview with them that she. That she was domineering or that she was too, like, you know, that kind of person. I don't. This is just my opinion. It's not that it looks like she's very domineering. It looks that Chris Watts is an empty. Again, I say husk. That will just take anything. Yeah. And just roll with it until it doesn't work for him anymore, and then he explodes.

[A]

It also seems that he becomes obsessed with women. That's my opinion. So if the woman that he's obsessed with wants to move to Colorado, of course he's gonna go with it.

[B]

When he just. What does he have going on? Right. He doesn't care. Sure.

[A]

Let's go to cars everywhere. This car's everywhere in Colorado.

[B]

Is there cars in Colorado? Let's go to Colorado. Colorado. That's how it seems to me. Yeah. You know? So he was like, yeah, I don't really give a. So during the vacation, the couple hired a realtor to take them around the area and look at some properties. And by the time they were leaving to go back to North Carolina, they'd made the decision to move to Colorado as soon as possible. Okay. In fact, before they'd even gotten home, they'd already come up with a plan. Chris would move to Colorado first and stay with Gina and Charlie, while Shanann remained in North Carolina to sell the house and kind of wrap up all the affairs on the East Coast. Okay. Because, again, they don't have kids at this point. It's much easier.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now Chris and Shannan's plan to move to Colorado became yet another point of contention with the families.

[A]

Mama doesn't want her, right?

[B]

No. While Shannan's family was supportive and helped her prepare for the move and the upcoming wedding, Chris's mom struggled to accept this. I bet she said Colorado was Shannan's idea. How do you know that?

[A]

Because you're not at the dinner table.

[B]

You're not.

[A]

When those conversations are happening, like, you're. Yeah, sorry. Fuck off.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I'm not in the relationship either. So I'm not saying it wasn't her idea. But you don't know.

[A]

But we don't know.

[B]

You don't know.

[A]

We all share the common thing that we don't know.

[B]

And you know what? He was going along with it. So what's the problem? Right. Well, it's like he agreed to it.

[A]

And they lived there for how long? Like, obviously it was fine for a little bit.

[B]

They're also grown adults. So she said, why did she want to leave and take him all the way to Colorado? Take him?

[A]

He's a grown adult. He's not a child. She can't take him anywhere.

[B]

And I literally just wrote here, Jesus. And while the rest of Chris's family was a little more supportive than his mom was, they still seemed to harbor resentment for this. As they prepared for the engagement party, Shannan asked Jamie, his sister, to help in planning, specifically asking her to order the food. And she had told Jamie to order gluten free food, and she failed to do so, which resulted in Shannan not being able to eat anything at the, at the engagement party for her. Wow. Yeah. Cool. Jamie maintains that it was a mistake and it was a. It was a, like, miscommunication.

[A]

That can happen. For sure.

[B]

It can happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just looking at, you know, looking at both sides here. But Sandy, Shannon's mom, suspects it was maybe, could have been just, in her opinion, a subtle attempt to punish her for what the Watts family did perceive as stealing Chris from them. Yeah, because they made it pretty obvious that they felt like she had taken him away. So the tension between the families finally came to a head several months later. They believed Shannan was controlling and overbearing and that she'd manipulated Chris to get her way when it came to all the decisions in the relationship. That's just how they saw her. Okay. When it all finally boiled over, Chris had a falling out with his family over it. Years later, he said, I blew up at my family to the point where I said I didn't need any of them anymore because I have Shannan. And then are you ready for it? So you hear that and you're like, whoa. Like that. You actually took a stance. No, he said, I don't know if Shannan coached me to do it or if it was just rage like I'd never seen before. You don't know. He is such a ass wet rag.

[A]

Like, I'm sorry. Like, you would know if she coached you to do that, there would be instances where she would say, hey, freak out on your family. Hey, your family sucks.

[B]

Sucks. So convenient of you to say that. When Shannan cannot dispute that. Yeah. And also grow the up. Yeah, you got you. So you stood up for her. I don't know if she coached me. I don't know. You don't know?

[A]

Not know.

[B]

You idiot. You don't know. I can't. He's so gross. Like, he's so.

[A]

He's just a wimp.

[B]

He is. Oh, it just makes me think of Randy and scream when he says, Billy Loomis. What a pussy ass wet rag in Streamsuit. That's literally what he feels like to me. She coached you. Get a grip, you useless moose knuckle. So by April 2012.

[A]

Not a moose knuckle.

[B]

Yeah. A moose knuckle. Yeah. Yeah, I said it. I stand. I stand by it. By April 2012, Chris had quit his job and moved in with Gina and Charlie. But he stayed in daily contact with Shannan, who stayed behind to sell the house. And it turned out that the house took a little longer to sell than they thought. And. But by August, she finally found a buyer and even made a little bit of a profit on the sale because she's a sales girl.

[A]

Hell, yeah.

[B]

With the house sold, she joined Chris in Colorado, and they first shared a small bedroom in the Deets's basement until October 2013, when they bought the house in Frederick, Colorado.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which was a small town of about 15, 000 people. Like, a lot of people their age. Chris and Shannan were into social media.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, especially at the time. And much of their lives together were documented and shared through, like, Facebook and Instagram.

[A]

Instagram had, like, just come out, like, right around that time.

[B]

Did it really?

[A]

Yeah, I think Instagram came out my sophomore year of high school, which would have been like, 2011, 2012.

[B]

That's crazy. Yeah. But in the months leading up to the wed, too. They're. They're planning a wedding. Shannan shared just enthusiastic daily updates about wedding planning. And she made a point of showing off her engagement ring, which was $10,000. Hell, yeah. I was like,

[A]

my engagement ring is gorgeous.

[B]

That shocked me.

[A]

It's not $10,000.

[B]

Like, that shocked. I like, okay, like that. Damn. I just. Like that, like, shocked me. I was like, how did people determine

[A]

how much it cost?

[B]

I'm not sure. It's just in the documents now. Around this time, tensions between the families had ramped up. I mean, it was constant. Okay. Chris's mom, Cindy, literally told him she didn't think Shanann was good enough for him, and she didn't like how she treated him. And then when it Came down to it, they decided not to come to the wedding.

[A]

His own parents didn't go to his wedding?

[B]

Nope. And her reasoning, which there's, like, interviews that she's given or they have given during, like, the mom and the dad to people. In one of the interviews, she literally says, we didn't attend because Shannan and I just couldn't get along. I didn't like the way she treated him. I'm sorry. If you grow up, grow up. You just can't get along.

[A]

That's nuts.

[B]

So you don't go to your only son's wedding. That's nuts.

[A]

In my opinion.

[B]

In my opinion.

[A]

That's not.

[B]

In my opinion. That's rough.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

But. And it's like, what. What does that do? Well, they're getting married regardless of whether you're there or not, so. Yeah. What did it do? Oh, man. All it does is add to tension. This is messy. So the wedding day finally comes, and despite people being jerks about it, it was on November 3, 2012. It was a modest ceremony at the Hilton in Charlotte. Their family, most of their family came and their friends. Shannan's brother Frankie recalled later, I was crying, thanking God for him being in my sister's life. Oh, wow. Now. Because, see, he could dupe everyone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Now, with the wedding behind them, Chris and Shannan left for their honeymoon to Myrtle Beach. They actually were planning to go to Cancun, but they had to change plans, like, at the last second because it was too expensive. Oh, okay. Which we've all been there. Yeah. Looking back, Gina Dietz recalls having never seen either, like, people so in love. Wow. She said they were very happy. They were newlyweds, and it was wonderful. And just a few months later, they got more happy news. When Shannan discovered that she was pregnant years earlier, her doctors had actually told her, you might have trouble getting pregnant because of the lupus.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

So this news was, like, even more exciting. Yeah. Now, between the pregnancy and the new house and the marriage, things were really going well for them. Like the lead up to the wedding. Shannan wanted to document every step of her pregnancy, of course, from photos of her growing tummy to shots of the baby's closet and bedroom as they were filling it with toys and clothing. Exciting. Gina said before she and I even met, she had clothes for her firstborn. The constant photos and updates on social media really would reflect this. Like, this couple that's so excited about the birth of their child.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

And it did, because they were both very, very excited about this. But it also, to some people, was looking like they were living beyond their means because they were, like, buying too much when they really couldn't afford it. Okay, but I mean, that's also none of our business.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Though back in North Carolina, Chris and Shannan's combined income had been in, like. So that money really wasn't a problem for them.

[A]

Well, the cost of living, I'm sure, is also a bit cheaper.

[B]

Well, and now Shannan was only making, like, a little over the national minimum wage, while most of Chris's salary went to bills and the mortgage on the new house at the time. Time. So basically, they were spending more money than they were making, which the only reason why this is important is because financial stress can be a factor in certain, like, arguments and marriage problems. But they didn't seem to worry because they were just putting things on credit cards and just kind of like, paying the minimum and going. Okay. Which can again become.

[A]

If you're a young person listening, you can pay more than the minimum.

[B]

You can.

[A]

I didn't know that when I was younger. I thought you were just supposed to pay the minimum. And I. I. My credit at, like, 19 years old.

[B]

I feel like 99.99% of people, their

[A]

credit up at, like, 19, 20.

[B]

Because we don't teach people enough about it. No.

[A]

We don't learn about it.

[B]

In. The system itself is complete bullshit.

[A]

It's literally designed to.

[B]

The credit system is ass. It makes no sense.

[A]

Even I'm like, my credit score doesn't make sense right now.

[B]

No. It's ridiculous. No, no. On December 16, 2013, after 16 hours of labor, Shannan gave birth. Birth to a baby girl named Bella Marie. Oh, that's a beautiful name. So cute. A few weeks later, Ronnie and Cindy Watts, Chris's parents, they came to Colorado to visit and to meet their new granddaughter. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. And Cindy had hoped they could leave the negative experiences in the past, but she wasn't willing to. So that's tough.

[A]

That's a catch 22.

[B]

So, like, you could.

[A]

She was hoping to, but she couldn't.

[B]

But she couldn't. She found it difficult to look past her feelings towards Shanann.

[A]

Grow up.

[B]

Cindy later recalled, Chris always seemed anxious, and when she needed something, he would run. He wouldn't walk, he would run. It was very odd.

[A]

Also, maybe he's anxious because of the tension between you two.

[B]

Yeah. You ever think of him?

[A]

He is at all like.

[B]

Like, okay, Cindy. Or he was just a good husband.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And she was pregnant. Like, she just Had a baby. Right. Like, hello, I'm. I'm sorry. He's being a good spouse at this time. It's almost like, I'm like, are you.

[A]

Are you not ready? Like, what is going on?

[B]

It was very odd that he would go. He just had a wife who just gave birth. Like, sorry about it. Regardless of what Cindy Watts felt or believed, those who knew Chris and Shannan knew them as a great couple. Their friend Chris Landon told People later, they were the couple that you look at and then turn to your husband and be like, why aren't we like that? Wow. Which is, like, shocking. They said. They seemed so supportive of each other. It was their public face, huh? Which is clear. Yeah. In May, Chris found a new job as an oil field contractor for Covenant Testing Technologies in nearby Greenly Greeley. The change definitely came at the best time because all the money they had been spending was definitely starting to catch up, and this salary increase would go a long way towards getting them out of that hole. They definitely had a lot of debt at this point. Yeah. But in January 2015, Shannan learned that she was pregnant with their second child, just as she'd done with the last pregnancy. She wanted to document all this, and she was documenting Bella's life and, like, all her milestones, and she. She was just excited about it. Yeah. To those following along on Facebook and Instagram, and what's really funny about this right now is in my notes, it autocorrected Facebook to Fake Book. Fake Book. And I didn't even do that. Intelligent and, like, intelligently. That's weird. That is weird. Everybody who saw them on Fake Book and Instagram would have thought they couldn't look more happy or more well adjusted as a couple. Behind the scenes, though, things were getting a little challenging. In addition to the growing financial problems that were just kind of stacking on each other, Bella was reaching the age now where she could walk, so she needed a lot more supervision. Once they start walking.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

For the increasingly pregnant Shanann, that becomes an issue.

[A]

It's tough to keep up with.

[B]

She couldn't get around very easily. And Chris wasn't around as often as he was during the first pregnancy. The second pregnancy, if you're lucky enough, like, and that's what you want, to have a second pregnancy. It is tough. So difficult. Because now, all of a sudden, the first one, you're like, well, I don't have a child, so I'm the queen, but I'm the Queen of Sheba here. Right? And it's like. But the Second one you're like, oh shit, it's not.

[A]

I gotta keep up with that one that I already made.

[B]

Like, it's not just about me now. Right. But couples, you know, and we've seen this before. Everybody knows this. People who obsessively post how happy they are online are usually not bad. Do tend to be trying to compensate for something or just trying to manifest that happiness. Obviously not always. I've seen some people who a lot

[A]

of times it is the case.

[B]

But I. We need to remember that social media, especially now, I mean back then it was. Now I think it's a hundredfold. Social media is complete. I think back then it was definitely a thing where like people who posted all the time would post how happy they were and like whatever. And it might not be. So now it's almost 100% across the board. I think now, like it really is.

[A]

So not to get super woo, but a lot of social media popped off when Neptune was in a really strong placement. And Neptune is the planet of illusions.

[B]

Oh, wow. That's interesting.

[A]

It's actually very fascinating. You can go down like a deep hole on that.

[B]

Yeah. And I think, I assume when you're in a not happy situation or not even at this point, I don't think it was an unhappy situation. I think it was challenging and not ideal situation. Like things aren't going exactly how you want them to overcompensate. I think you're overcompensating because when people are telling you, wow, you're the cutest couple ever, makes you feel better. Couple goals. I want to be like that. Wow, this is so cute. Blah, blah. Your brain can start believing that that's true and then it can kind of coast you into the next day kind of thing. It's almost like it just gotta get to tomorrow and these people will tell me I'm great.

[A]

Well, there's also studies about.

[B]

But it's so empty.

[A]

There are so many studies about what likes and comments do to our brain. And it is. Is similar to drugs.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

The way that stimulates your brain is

[B]

crazy and it's scary.

[A]

It is scary.

[B]

That's why, like, I know this isn't about this. We're kind of going because we're talking about this. I just want to say taking social media breaks is so healthy. Yeah. I really encourage everybody to do it if they can.

[A]

When I. I think I took very weird off. That was great.

[B]

It is, it's real. It makes you learn to appreciate things that you're not appreciating. Right now. But back to this. So in order to help with Bella and the soon to be born second baby, Shannan's parents moved into the Finnish basement in the Watts house. Really?

[A]

I didn't know that.

[B]

Yeah, they for a short period of time they did the addition. Well with two new people in the home. It was. Chris said it was stressful of course, but he also welcomed the help with Bella because now they have built in grandparents to help out. He later said when they first got here they didn't have a job and so they were around all the time and.

[A]

Sorry, this is his parents, right?

[B]

No, her parents. Oh, her parents.

[A]

Okay, okay. My comment was I thought that.

[B]

Yeah, I mean any parents moving in I think is a like it's child that goes. Yeah. But the presence of her parents, according to him, he felt like it put a strain on everything and they fought more than they had in the past. According to him. Yeah, allegedly. Yeah. I think it was just cuz he was an personally.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

By July 2015, Shanann gave birth to their second daughter Celeste, who would be known as Cece.

[A]

Such a cute name.

[B]

She was born with an allergic Swallowing disorder. Oh. That required constant medical attention in the first year of her life. Oh, that's really scary. Which is tough. That's really tough when you also already

[A]

have another child too.

[B]

Yeah, it's really, really tough. So they'd also, they had filed for bankruptcy before this, which, so it did wipe out a lot of the, the debt that they were in. But now there was going to be medical bills on top of that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So even with the presence of her parents, Shanann was finding it difficult to keep up with everything. During the day, she was taking care of the girls, trying to keep up at the house. At night, she was working from home as an auditor for a local hospital, desperate to get caught up on everything. In January 2016, she started working part time as a rep. A rep for a multi level marketing company selling an energy drink called Thrive. Okay. The job was mostly online and thanks to her, like, she was pretty adept at social media at this point and

[A]

really good at sales.

[B]

She was really good at it and she was able to navigate it really well. According to her Facebook posts at the time, the Thrive was helping with her pain management as well, and she had stopped taking her lupus medication.

[A]

Wow. The energy drink.

[B]

Yeah. I have no, I did not look into Thrive at all. So I don't know what it is. I'm not. Who knows what it is? Right. But the deeper Shannan got into marketing Thrive online, the more she was kind of bringing Chris in for, like, sales pitches and, like, having be her and be a part of, like, videos and pictures. And Chris was actually using Thrive as well. So he was commenting on, like, his experiences, how it was helping him with certain things. But as author John Glatt wrote something about the succession of grinning pictures of Chris was hollow. Huh. And if you look at this man, he is hollow.

[A]

He is very hollow.

[B]

His eyes are so dead. I've never seen anything like it.

[A]

When I say the lights are on, but no one's home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, the lights aren't even on at this point.

[B]

Yeah, like truly, truly scary. Scary. Now, as Shannan's success with this continued to grow, she tried to bring Chris on board as a sales rep. But he shockingly lacked the charisma necessary to succeed in sales, which I know crazy. You never saw coming. I thought she'd be great at that. You could knock me over with a feather, Chris said. She put me underneath her so that.

[A]

Well, she started this.

[B]

She. She's bringing you in, babe. Right. And he said if I wanted to talk to somebody at the mall or the Pool about Thrive. I would just stumble all over my words. It's like, okay, so you're not good at sales. Yeah, who gives a. Despite his struggles to grow his sales here, Shannan continued to enthusiastically celebrate him on social media. She really strengthened that outward appearance of this happy couple. While there was definitely some tension underneath. Okay, now by the end of 2016, her social media presence became even bigger than it had ever been. She was, like, really staying consistent, posting, because, like, that is how you do it if you want to grow an audience to get paid to do this, which is what she was trying to do. Yep. And she was posting a lot about Chris too, because she. I think she desperately wanted this marriage to be what she thought it was. Right. And she's posted one in late November that was captioned, my husband Chris. He is my biggest supporter. He's an amazing father to our beautiful girls and the best husband ever.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So she was just, like, always trying to pump him up. Yeah. In early 2017, Sandy and Frank Shannan's parents packed up their things and moved back to North Carolina. Like things had settled. Seemed to even out. By April, Shannan was working on Thrive full time, managing her own business and Chris's social media presence operating like, you know, both things at once. Well, it appeared to most people that things were now going pretty well for the couple. Chris's mother, Cindy, said she could sense a growing tension between them.

[A]

Could she?

[B]

So other people thought it was fine, but she.

[A]

All the way from North Carolina.

[B]

That's crazy. Cindy said, I've never seen her scream at Chris, but I'm sure there was something in private because she. Because she always had that angry look on her face like she was disgusted with him.

[A]

You can be angry at somebody and not scream at them. And if you never saw any evidence of her screaming at him, why would you think that she screamed at him?

[B]

What I have to say is, you know what they say about assuming Cindy. Something about ass. I don't know.

[A]

Something about ass.

[B]

I don't know what. I don't remember it. I don't remember the saying. I just don't think we should assume that. That. That she's screaming at him in private.

[A]

If you've never seen that happen.

[B]

Whether or not Cindy was right about her assessment of Chris and Shannan's relationship, she wasn't the only person at this point that was noticing a change in the dynamic a little bit. In the late summer of 2018, a young woman named Nick. Nicole Nikki. Kessinger. Kessinger.

[A]

Kessinger.

[B]

I Think began working at the oil company where Chris worked. And his co workers couldn't help but notice Crispy and a ogling creepo loser your face and just staring at her. It's the worst. What do you see that your co worker has.

[A]

Like that.

[B]

Yeah. When you see that your co workers. This ogling little creep face. Just a lech. Like that's. That's what he looks like to me.

[A]

And he's staring at her all.

[B]

One co worker said Chris would be on his laptop and when she'd walk by, he'd look up and stare at her awkwardly. Ew. Which I'm like, what. What got you about that girl like that? I don't know if that would do it for me, but okay.

[A]

I know that that would be. Not do it for me.

[B]

Wouldn't do it for me now. Although their work should. Shouldn't have really brought them in contact very often. Cuz they were on two separate things. Yeah. Like in this company. Before long, Chris seemed to be finding ways to casually run into Nicole around the office.

[A]

Imagine that.

[B]

She later said it was always hit or miss. It wasn't an everyday thing in the beginning. Okay. Regardless, the attraction between them seemed to be undeniable. And Chris apparently didn't know what a divorce was. So good. In June 2018, Shannan excitedly posted that she and Chris were expecting a third child.

[A]

You know his reaction in that post.

[B]

Yeah. Is bonkers.

[A]

He literally goes awesome, awesome. If I told my husband I was pregnant. And he said awesome.

[B]

Yeah. Just one day after Shannon posted about her pregnancy, Chris and Nikki spoke for the first time. She recalled, he started talking about his kids and then she mentioned, yes, I have. And he said, yes, I have a wife, but we're getting separated now. What's confusing for me is there was this. And then she said that at first he didn't say that he had kids. She didn't find that out for a while. So I'm not sure which one is very stories. Yeah. I'm not sure which one is correct. Okay. Okay. But yeah, he supposedly told her allegedly that he was getting separated from his wife. If you look at the discovery documents, maybe I guess you'll just have to look at them and kind of take what you will from that. Yeah. And also when asked, his mother said that she didn't believe he was happy at all for the pregnancy.

[A]

Which is disgusting.

[B]

He knows how babies are made. He's made too.

[A]

You can avoid that.

[B]

So like, you know, if you're not

[A]

excited to have another child and if you are Planning on getting separated, maybe.

[B]

Don't do that.

[A]

Don't do that.

[B]

Yeah. Don't have another child if you are actually planning on separating. It's pretty simple. But Chris showed Nikki pictures of the girls, neglecting to mention that there was another one on the way. Which. Which, that is correct. She found out in the media later she had no idea that she was

[A]

pregnant because that probably would have changed things, I would hope at least.

[B]

And she liked that he was an enthusiastic father, or seeming to be. Later that day, she sent him an email thanking him for being honest about his relationship status with his wife. And she wrote, truthfulness is so underrated in our culture. And in his reply, Chris commented, he was a straightforward guy and that lying just complicates things.

[A]

Well, he's a really bad liar, so I do believe that he felt that way.

[B]

It does complicate things. He's not great at it.

[A]

He's the. He might be the worst, worst liar on planet Earth.

[B]

The polygraph examiner literally congratulated him on how bad of a liar he was.

[A]

Yeah, if you watch the interview that he's doing, which we're gonna get into.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies.

[B]

Bad, bad, bad lies. He also, in that same one, told her how absolutely stunning he thought she was. Excuse me while I vomit for an indefinite amount of time. Yeah, you piece of. I have a lot to say. You piece of. Now, in the days that followed, Chris and Nicole continued exchanging. Now, this is the days that followed after his wife announced her third pregnancy.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

They continued exchanging casual messages through their work email, but after a week, they started texting and sending messages through less official channels. Meanwhile, Shanann filled her days with, you know, trying to keep the house together. Yeah, working. Posting about her pregnancy and like, like, trying to work. On Father's Day, she posted a long message about how devoted Chris is to their family and how lucky she was to have him. Alongside a video of Bella singing a special song she'd memorized just for him. Bella, who he smothered and shoved into an oil tank. In case you don't know the case. That's horrific. I hate this man with every fiber of my being. Same now. Later, Chris said of his relationship with Nicole, I thought it was just flirting. I didn't think that something would actually happen. And then ready for his, like, oh, God, I've just never been pursued by anybody before.

[A]

You weren't pursued by Shannan when you guys got together.

[B]

Shut the. That little innocent, doe eyed baby boy act. Doesn't work. Like, it's Disgusting. Oh, I just never had a lady interested in me before. Like, gee, golly, it was just so neat.

[A]

You had a relationship. Relationship that you say you have before Shenan. You also the up dated and married Shannan.

[B]

He's such a waste of chromosomes. But seeing how their relationship unfolded, it's kind of hard to accept that Chris was doing nothing more than flirting, because it ramped up pretty quick for flirting to be what you were thinking was happening here. After they stopped sending messages through work emails, Chris and Nikki began. Or Nicole, whatever, began taking steps to communicate through means that wouldn't be discovered. But wait a minute. I thought he was. He was separating from his wife. I thought this was okay.

[A]

So why would you not need to be discovered?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. At first, Chris gave Nicole the number for his work phone, knowing that Shannan regularly checked his personal phone. Oh, why are you hiding it? Yeah. Huh. Then a few days later, Nicole told him that they should start communicating only through their private phones so no one at work would know they were talking. Shocking.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Why? Why? I don't. I thought this was. Okay. Weird. Very strange. But Chris may not have set out to have an affair with Nicole initially when he was just ogling her in the. In the office.

[A]

He probably just didn't think it was possible.

[B]

The precautions that they were taking in order to keep their communication secret makes it hard to believe the whole thing was flirting. Yeah. Seems weird. Yeah, I can't imagine that. I'd say so. But, hey, that's just me using logic, which is something that both of them seem to treat as, like, an optional subscription service. So. I don't know. I don't know. We're not on the same thing here. We're not on the same playing field, I think so. The more Chris and Nicole got to know each other, the more he shared about his life with Shadow Shannan. She did say. Chris said that she was all about appearances and all aspects of life, which. So nice that you're talking to your mistress about your pregnant wife. He said that Shannan pretended everything was fine and that they never argued anything like that.

[A]

Is she supposed to be posting your arguments on it?

[B]

Yeah, I'm not really sure. Do you want her to post what a stain you are? It was about two years earlier that he said he felt like the marriage had started to go bad for them, so you should have separated. And Nicole, of course, said he tried. He said he tried to talk to her many times, but it fell on deaf ears. Okay, cool. The More time Chris spent with Nicole, the more his troubles with Shannan seemed to fade into the back of his mind, because now he's distracted. By the end of July, the two of them were in constant communication. His mistress and him. And they were sneaking off to hotels or Nicole's apartment whenever they could find the time. Chris assured Nicole that he was getting a divorce. That's what is alleged.

[A]

Well, they always do.

[B]

Yeah. So they could finally be together. But until that happened, she wanted to take things slow.

[A]

Baby, you got to see divorce papers if you're gonna get set up with a man who's separated, quote, unquote.

[B]

Well, and she wanted to take things slow, and maybe she did. I don't know. Maybe take a look at the discovery documents and see. I don't know. Maybe they're. To me, they were a little. They. They made me a little confused by the whole thing.

[A]

But maybe we just have different. Different definitions of slow.

[B]

Maybe. Who knows? I don't know. Who can be sure? I wasn't there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So she said. He was, like, in fifth gear the entire time. Maybe it was up to me to hit the brakes. But he was so kind to me. Why was I gonna push him away?

[A]

Because he was married and his wife was pregnant.

[B]

I literally wrote, because he was married with children. Nicole. That's why.

[A]

Nicole. It's pretty simple, babe.

[B]

I got to tell you, when a guy is telling you, no, I am going to divorce my wife, he's not. And even if he is cool, then he will wait until he does like that. It just. He can't have his cake and eat it, too.

[A]

You'll sleep better.

[B]

You will. That's the thing. And it's like. I'm not saying this is her fault. I'm not saying anything like that. So, like, calm your tits. I'm just saying it just for you. You're like, don't let him have his cake and eat it, too. Let him take care of that situation, and then you can feel good about going forward. That's just my opinion on the whole thing.

[A]

Don't be the other woman.

[B]

Be the main. Exactly.

[A]

That's my motto.

[B]

And you just like, he's not. He's gonna keep telling you that.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And you don't want to be listening to him like that. No, make him prove it. Yeah, like, that's the thing. It's like, if he really is unhappy in that relationship and they are together, not happy, then they will divorce or separate, and you will be able to continue a relationship. It just doesn't. It's always messy when you are going to get involved before their divorce. At least from what I have seen in my life, that is just my. From experience personal like what I've seen. That's all. Okay. I'm not saying I'm an expert on this. I'm not saying anything like that. No, it's just, just saying.

[A]

Just.

[B]

Just that now. July 24th. This is directly from the discovery documents which we will link in the show notes.

[A]

So tis fact, this is official.

[B]

July 24, 2018. Nicole googled quote, man I'm having an affair with says he is leaving his wife. Oh. July 25, 2018. Chris Googles are you ready? When to say I love you? When to say I love you in a new relationship, what do you feel when someone says I love you? And how does it feel when someone says I love you?

[A]

Okay, let's save the latter two. When do you say I love you in a new relationship? When you're divorced.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you're officially going through the process

[B]

of getting divorced and also when you

[A]

and your wife are living separately, why

[B]

are you asking what human emotions feel like? Like, why are you asking.

[A]

Why are you asking a search engine babe?

[B]

You have kids and you don't know what love feels like. You've been with somebody and married and you don't know what love feels like.

[A]

We can laugh and joke, like, obviously there's a lot to laugh and joke about there. But it actually, at its very core is so scary, it is horrified. He asked Google, what does it feel like when somebody says I love you?

[B]

Well, no. And you. And later in one of the interviews, his mom says, like, he's not the psychopath. Like, he's not a sociopath. I'm not armchair diagnosing here because I, I don't know what he is. He's something though, like that.

[A]

You have to ask Google what it feels like when somebody says I love you? That as a grown person who has been in loving relationships or what seem like loving relationships. You what?

[B]

Like as a father, I. I'm like,

[A]

what do you feel when your kids tell me.

[B]

Because he's not even saying, like, what does it feel like when someone loves you? He's saying, like, what does it feel like when someone says I love you? Right. People have said they love you, so you should. Why don't you know what that feels like?

[A]

But apparently it doesn't penetrate him.

[B]

That's. It's so scary.

[A]

It is chilling.

[B]

Yeah. Now, the discovery document also shows that Nicole was googling both Shanann and Chris's Facebook for long periods of time, intermittently.

[A]

Okay, so then wouldn't she be seeing the videos where Shannan is saying what a great father and husband that Chris is?

[B]

That's. That's what I'm a little confused about. And again, I'm not.

[A]

No, I'm just saying.

[B]

I'm just saying, like, what? I. I do wonder what were you thinking when you were seeing her posting these? But then again, if I'm gonna give the. The devil's advocate here, then I'm gonna say, well, okay, she's seeing those. She's probably going to Chris and being like.

[A]

And he's saying she's all about appearances.

[B]

And he's like, well, she's just about social media and appearances. Of course she's posting that.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

Because this is what this guy does, you know? Now, whether or not you know Shanann, by all accounts, and from the discovery documents, when you can see their text messages between each other, it didn't seem like she knew that he was having an affair. It seemed like she was suspecting it. Okay. And she just didn't. Didn't, of course, didn't want to know. Yeah. But that summer, she had to know something changed between them because it was definitely happening. It's very evident that she was understanding that Chris was never great at communication, which is not a shock. But the more time he spent with Nicole, the less he seemed to have anything to say to Shanann. By mid July, it seemed that even his commitment to secrecy had started to slip, because on more than one occasion, he stayed the night at Nicole's apartment.

[A]

What the. He didn't come home to his pregnant wife and two children. That's.

[B]

And by the end of July, they had expressed their love for each other, so that Google said, july sounds good. And he vowed again to divorce his wife so they could be together. But he hadn't yet. Now, throughout much of the summer, Shannon and the girls were actually in North Carolina visiting family. Chris had found an excuse to stay behind in Colorado. Course he did. So he could be with Nicole.

[A]

Y.

[B]

Those weeks that Shanan was away were, according to Chris, the freest he had ever felt in years without his children

[A]

and away from his pregnant wife.

[B]

And the thought of that coming to an end was so deeply frustrating.

[A]

That's so scary.

[B]

He spent the entire time with his mistress. And in the later interviews with police, she said that they had to lie to the babysitter so she wouldn't. Didn't know where they. That they were together when they came home from this trip, Shanann went on a work trip and he was still going out with his mistress and having the babysitter babysit the kids and telling them that he was going on to work things.

[A]

What the.

[B]

And she knew that. I'm gonna keep my comments. Now back to the North Carolina trip with the girls and Shannan being gone, Shannan was looking forward to returning home from this trip trip. She wanted to see Chris. She wanted to talk about things. But during the trip, if you again, look at the discovery documents, where there's all the text messages, it's pretty heart wrenching. The discussions between the two is her literally begging him to give her anything, just any kind of confirmation that he loved her, confirmation that he was excited to have another baby.

[A]

While she's carrying his child, she's begging him for confirmation that he loves her.

[B]

And at one point she says, how do you fall in love with. Out of love with someone and find five weeks? Oh my God. And she's literally saying to him, this came out of nowhere, right? Like, literally came out of nowhere. She said when he, when she showed back up, he was cold and distant again. She was saying this to friends, like texting them, because he was a spineless little thumb and he should have just said, I want to get separated.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Now, the first two weeks of August were a huge departure from the norm in the house. The more Chris pulled away from Shannan, the more she was just begging him to open up and talk to her about what was wrong. And as far as she could tell, everything had been fine when she left for North Carolina. And she said now that he was home, he wanted nothing to do with her. Like, didn't even want to touch her. She told a friend that it felt like it came out of nowhere. She kept asking over and over, like, how do you fall in love with. Out of love with somebody so quickly? And August 4, which is in the beginning of August, where we are right now, where this is all falling apart. Nicole searched wedding dresses for two hours.

[A]

Hours.

[B]

Oh, for two hours. That's according to the discovery documents.

[A]

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[B]

Now between all of this are multiple texts again where Shanann is upset and begging him for anything. She says they were all over each other when she left and couldn't get enough of each other. And she's like, and then all of a sudden, you don't want anything to do with me. That's how quickly from somebody else. He had five weeks of his mistress and now he has shut off everything to Shannon. Like he, she says he would barely kiss her at the airport. Oh, and during some of the most emotional texts that she's sending, these big long blocks of texts where she's spilling her entire heart out, Chris Watts was googling the distance between moon and Earth. Earth.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, what? His pregnant wife is spilling her heart out to him, begging him just to tell her that it's okay and that he loves her and that he's going to take like that they're going to be a family and that all of this. And he is sitting there googling in the middle of these texts, what's the difference distance between Earth and the moon?

[A]

So she literally meant nothing to him at this point. He is to be that unbothered.

[B]

Unbothered while you're pregnant.

[A]

I can't express this enough. Like, I cannot. Your pregnant wife and mother of your already two born children is begging you to give her anything and you're doing a science experiment.

[B]

Yeah, he went, he didn't answer one. At one point when she was just going on and on and on and she goes, she literally said, I'm your pregnant wife is spilling their heart out to you and our marriage is crumbling before us and you're just falling asleep.

[A]

He's not even falling asleep.

[B]

And he. And at that point, I think he did.

[A]

He's applying for an internship at NASA. What the fuck?

[B]

Like, what is wrong with you? August 8, 2018. According to the discovery documents were our official record, Nicole searched, quote, marrying your mistress.

[A]

Oh, so she.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To call yourself the mistress too is

[B]

like, when it implies, you know.

[A]

Of course it does.

[B]

I'm just saying that that search implies, you know, I'm not saying I'm covering my ass here. I'm not saying anything.

[A]

No.

[B]

But, oh, Shannan at this point was also Googling because she had come home. And when she came home, they went through a lot. They were going through everything. But then Shannan said, like, they were having good discussions. When she got home, they were starting to talk through things. He was still being cold and distant, and he was still saying some things like, I don't know what's going on in my head. And she was Googling emotion based couples therapy. She was Googling different couples therapy things. She was, like, really trying to fix

[A]

this whole thing, which, like, I can only imagine, like, you know, how it feels to be pregnant. Like, I'm sure your emotions are high already in a perfect marriage.

[B]

And then to have this up as your partner like that.

[A]

She doesn't need to be under that much stress.

[B]

No. Now, August 9th, Shannan went on a work trip to Arizona. And again, she was in a much better mood where. And she was talking to friends saying that, you know, she was having discussions. He had told her he loved her again, because he was saying that before, but she said he was still cold. And at the same time that this is going on, that she's texting her friends that things are getting better. He was transferring pictures of Nicole onto a secret calculator app on his phone. He does that often. Okay. They sent a lot of pictures to each other. And he had a secret calculator app which he would keep them in so Shannan couldn't find them. And those things get transferred into that app during the weirdest fucking times. Let me tell you. Go take a peek at those discovery documents and read the text messages.

[A]

So that's an app designed to look like a calculator that you can, like,

[B]

hide shit in, I suppose. I did not look it up. It's just called a secret calculator app in the discovery documents. And I didn't look any further.

[A]

Look at what a secret calculator.

[B]

I was like, I don't know that this exists.

[A]

Is that, like, designed for cheating? Probably pisses me off.

[B]

Because it's probably like. Looks like a calculator. So it's like, you would never.

[A]

I'm looking.

[B]

But remember, if you have an iPhone, there's only one calculator on there. Yeah, it is a thing.

[A]

They're vault apps disguised. This is from Google as functional calculators to hide photos, video files, and notes.

[B]

Notes behind a pin. Why do those exist?

[A]

These apps operate with a private password. What the.

[B]

So he was. He transferred photos, particularly of Nicole, into that app several times. Yep. And in the middle of very intense, very emotional conversations with his wife, one

[A]

of these apps, you can hide photos and videos. It includes a secure browser, so you can, like, separately Google crazy.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Notes. And the ability to take new pictures directly into the app.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I did not know that was a thing. You can even. You can even put contacts in there.

[B]

You know who did know that that was a thing?

[A]

Chris Watts.

[B]

Chris Watts. Wow. Meanwhile, as he's doing that, Shannan had ordered a book on Amazon about talking through problems as a couple and, like, finding love together again. Oh, my God. When it was delivered, she was in Arizona and got a notification that it was delivered. So she was like, go check the mail. They found that book in the garage in a trash can. Are you kidding? He's disgusting. So while the time now, while she's in Arizona on this work trip, they had very nice text messages back and forth with each other. They were talking about the girls, saying they loved each other during this time, calling each other like, he called her boo. Like, they were, like, very. Sending pictures of the girls to each other, commenting on the girl, like. Like, talking about the new baby days before, hours before he would murder them all.

[A]

And at the same time, he was also hanging out with the mistress and, like, lying to the babysitter.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That was during that trip.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

That now on August 11, Nicole and Chris went to dinner. And usually now this is when Shannon's in Arizona. And usually, according to Nicole, he paid for dinner with gift cards, cards to hide it from his wife. Because, remember, he's divorcing her, But I can't know about this, but that night, he used a credit card, and she was shocked by this and took it as a sign that he was really ready to leave her. I take it as a clear indication that he didn't plan for it to be a problem anymore.

[A]

It's so crazy that you just got to this part of the story, because I was just thinking to myself, at what point did he decide to murder her?

[B]

Feels like it might have been here yeah, it's at the very least, very highly suspect to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That he's, you know, and I understand that Nicole took it as like, okay, he's ready.

[A]

Yeah, of course she's not gonna think he's gonna murder his wife.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

Like, no, nobody thinks that way.

[B]

I'm sitting here saying, looks to me like he didn't think it would be a problem. I don't know what he was thinking there, but that's so scary. In the discovery documents, you will also see that he. He regularly frequented my prepaid center.com, which was a prepaid Visa site where you could reload onto that. So he was only using gift cards, usually in recovered text. This is just a side thing because it shows you how weird he is. In a text recovered from their phones, which, by the way, Nicole and Chris deleted a lot of their texts when he was arrested.

[A]

But they still found them.

[B]

Of course they do. Yeah. You can't delete it.

[A]

Actually deleted it.

[B]

But they show in the discovery documents which ones were deleted. And she also deleted all his stuff off her phone when they brought her in for questioning.

[A]

Yikes.

[B]

But that's just fact. Yeah. He also called her his sexy empanada. No. At one point. And here's the thing, I just stumbled on that one. I. How could I ever be looking for that?

[A]

An empanada is like a meat pie.

[B]

Thank you. I just thought that was interesting. It. It popped 11:30 at night last night. I'm sitting there scrolling like a goblin through these discovery documents, like, the texts that popped up, and I said, I'm sorry. What?

[A]

He was super socially awkward.

[B]

That's the thing. Like, who's called sexy empanada? To be a.

[A]

To be a pet name.

[B]

Like, get out of here.

[A]

If you ever called me his sexy empanada, I'd be like, what did I do to upset you?

[B]

Literally, I'd be like, what is that?

[A]

Like, why are you trying to insult me?

[B]

Like, are you all right? Sexy empanada. Had to throw that in there because it was just so absurd.

[A]

What?

[B]

And again, I highly, highly suggest that if you. If you have some time on your hands to take a peek through the discovery documents, because they really do give you such an overview of what was going on. What?

[A]

Well, I do.

[B]

What they were searching, what they were talking about, things between him and Shannan. It gives you a better picture of Shannan and his relationship.

[A]

That's what I was just going to say.

[B]

Besides what other people were putting on it.

[A]

There's so many rumors when it Comes to this case and.

[B]

And it's sad. Look at the discovery.

[A]

Because a lot of them are like, a lot of people on Shannan. I know she was domineering and she

[B]

was this and she was that.

[A]

So I agree with you. Go look at the discovery.

[B]

Because no matter what, I don't give a. She didn't deserve to be murdered. And also, I don't care if she was domineering. Like, clearly, who knows? I don't know. I wasn't in the relationship. She doesn't deserve to be murdered.

[A]

Of course not. And clearly she was blindsided by this.

[B]

Well, that. And that's what I mean. Like, the discovery documents really give you a clearer picture of what their relationship was and, like, how they were talking to each other.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's like, it doesn't matter what. What the relationship was like or what she was like or whatever. She's not here to. To negate that, say what was happening or speak on it. So it's really fucked up to be like, well, she was domineering. Okay. So he should strangle her to death right in front of her children. Like, is that really what we think here? Like, come on, get a grip now. In the. More. At the early morning hours of August 13, 2018, Shannan returned home from the work trip in Arizona. She had sent him a text before taking off on the plane that said, finally on plane and about to take off. Prayers for a safe flight. Love you, exclamation point. And he didn't respond. Nice. Pregnant wife was getting on a plane home and didn't respond. Wow. After being dropped off at the house by her friend, Nikki Atkinson, Nicole Atkinson.

[A]

Because he couldn't bother to go pick her.

[B]

No, of course, Court. I'll give him this. It was very late. It was in the middle of the night and the girls were home. Okay. So he would have had to take them out at like one o' clock in the morning. So I'll give them that.

[A]

All right.

[B]

But she went inside, leaving her suitcase by the front door, and she walked up to bed, trying not to wake the girls. Hours later, Shannan's friend. Friend of the century. Yeah. Hours later, Shannan's friend, friend of the century, Nicole Atkinson, called Shannan's phone to check in. Shannan had missed an appointment with her obgyn. That's why I said earlier. Yeah.

[A]

It's very interesting that he used to manage her doctor's appointments.

[B]

Well, once he got distracted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Clearly wasn't doing. Managing more. And she. So she missed the appointment and she hadn't responded to any of their texts. So Nicole was getting worried. When she couldn't get a hold of Shannan by phone. Nicole Atkinson went to the house and found it empty. But she found Shannan's car there. Her shoes that she always wore were by the door. She could see them and she was like, something's off. So she assumed Chris was at work, but Shannan and the girls were nowhere to be seen. So, concerned about her friend, she called Chris at work, but he said he hadn't seen Shannan since she got home earlier that morning. So a group of her friends all band together to text Chris their concerns. They. She had friends, let me tell you. You, her friend Cassandra, who, like, goes by Cassie, texted him about it and her. His response was she went to a friend's house with the kids. She won't tell me where, though. When I get home, I'll update you. What?

[A]

She won't tell you where. What? And, like, her friends are texting you? I would assume that they may know her other friend.

[B]

Well, that was what was immediately suspicious to them because, like, who is this friend? Yeah, what the fuck do you mean?

[A]

This is her friend group?

[B]

So they pressed. They didn't let it go. They said they knew that the couple was having issues and that Shanann was in a bad way emotionally because of this, and they were worried. He was most concerned about them not thinking he was a bad guy. Meanwhile, this is hours out of him murdering his pregnant wife and children, by the way. But he doesn't want her friends to think he's a bad guy.

[A]

But Shannan's the one that's all about appearances.

[B]

Cassie responds. Queen. Shit. Right now, I don't care about you or your relationship or what type of person you are or not, or what you, what I think of you. You. I'm not trying to be rude when I say that. And she was like, but just what the going on, right? Like, she was like, I literally don't care about you and I don't care about your relationship. Like, they were like, we don't even like you.

[A]

We just care about Shannan.

[B]

Meanwhile, during this, he was texting a realtor about their unfinished basement.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, discovery documents. Cassie told him her only concern was, quote, for his damn wife and her well being good. And then she let him have it. She told him Nikki was calling the police. Nicole, she was calling the police and said, so unless you want the police to bust your damn door down, you get home and check on your family, period. Queen. Chris was desperate for them not to call the police. He begged them not to. He said he was coming home and they were like you because what, like

[A]

your wife and children are missing? Why are you begging us not to call the police?

[B]

Exactly. So Nikki Atkinson called the Frederick Police Department to report Shannan missing and asked that they go to the house to conduct a. A well being check.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also there was a group chat with Shannan's friends and her in it and one of them said at the time, the police are here and they need to check Chris's phone and computer. Wow. Here's the thing. If I went missing, I tell you right now, I know for a fact. Nope. That none of my friends first reaction would be John did it. Nope. Same if your first reaction is that heavily, I think he might have done it. He's done it. Yeah. Like that I can guarantee. I even said this in front of Deb and everybody. I was like, would you have thought she said no to check John's phone and computer? She was like, nope, that would not even cross my mind. Like, that's bad. And during all of this, his mistress Nicole called him and he called her several times, but on both ends they had deleted the calls.

[A]

Sus.

[B]

Which, like, why did you do that?

[A]

Sus.

[B]

Also, during this time, during this time, during this time, during this time, hours after what we find out later, he had killed his pregnant wife and his three and four year old daughters. He had. We'll get into it later, don't worry. He had buried Shanann's body in an oil field and he had shoved the bodies of his three and four year old daughters into an oil tank that they could barely fit into. And now, during the time when her friends are now freaking out and he knows what he's done, he sent one final image of his mistress to that secret calculator app.

[A]

Are you kidding me?

[B]

It's in the discovery documents. What the. Dude. I was speechless. That takes an evil like I can't comprehend. Yeah. And also, what are you hiding? Well, that's. What are you doing?

[A]

Do you think that the police don't see those?

[B]

Well, that's the thing. I'm like, I think he thought that would be like secret from everybody. Wow.

[A]

What a moron.

[B]

Because it's a wind tunnel up there. It is a wind tunnel up there.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That is just so diabolical. Your children are submerged in an oil tank and your pregnant wife and unborn child are in the dirt at your work and you're sitting there sending spicy images to a secret fucking file.

[A]

You just Killed three children and your wife.

[B]

Like, I'm just like, my brain literally can't comprehend.

[A]

You just annihilated your entire family.

[B]

And it's like, let's call it what it is. Well, that's. And maybe it's because this case in particular, one, it's so brutal and so unthinkable. But two, we have those discovery things and we have so much documentation of every movement of it that you can really see everything in real time.

[A]

What's talking about is day to day

[B]

that it's just like, whoa. Because a lot of cases, we don't get that.

[A]

We don't get the, like, like the full blown.

[B]

What's. What is he doing while this is all happening and you get to see this and it's just like, oh, my God.

[A]

The lack of humanity.

[B]

It's something about that just like, threw me for a loop.

[A]

Like, those are your children. Yeah, those are your children.

[B]

And the discovery showed that Nicole Kessinger also spent four hours searching the Internet for Chris Watch Shannan's disappearance and things like it. But she deleted it. Okay, she also searched. She also searched. And again, this is all in there. I'm not. Yeah, she also searched. Can cops find delete deleted text messages?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

How long do phone companies keep text messages? And then she deleted all of that.

[A]

Girl. Now, I'm sorry, the people that think that when you delete something from the Internet, that it's just. Where do you think it goes?

[B]

Like, you don't think they can recover anything.

[A]

Such simple thinking.

[B]

It really is.

[A]

I know that, like, because of what we do, like, we're so much more privy to that kind of information. But, like, I think even when I was a teenager, I didn't, like, get into crazy because I was like. Like, because I'm normal, but also, like, normal. I know that everything can be tracked.

[B]

I just don't get the. And also, it's just like. And it looks suspicious no matter what. Even if you have nothing to do with anything, just don't do that. It just doesn't look good.

[A]

No.

[B]

So an officer arrived at the Watts house a little after 1:30pm and with Chris's permission, he entered the house. As Nikki Atkinson had said, there was no sign of Shannan and the girls. More concerning was that while Shannan herself was missing, her car phone and wallet were all still inside the house, and her suitcase was still by the front door. Nothing else in the house appeared to have been disturbed. There was no sign of breakin because he had killed the upstairs in Kristen. Shannan's bedroom. They found her wedding ring on the

[A]

bedside table, which I think he planted.

[B]

I. It makes sense. Now, to be clear, he let them in, but first he went through the garage and made them wait for several minutes before letting them in. Yeah. So now their neighbor Nathaniel Trina Stitch, who I will refer to as Nate, Homie of the century, Another hero here. There's so many people that really came out, came through to really push this thing way further, way quicker than it probably would have if they had not been. Honestly, like, it takes a lot of, like, chutzpah to, like, stick your neck out. Yeah. And these people in an investigation, when,

[A]

like, they're literally in the room with cops.

[B]

Yeah. It's, like, very impressive because that can be intimidating because I. It's. That's hard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm glad that these people did. So Nate, the Watts's neighbor, called police inside of his home to show them security camera camera footage that had a great view of Watts's driveway as well as the road in front of all the houses. Chris had no idea that there was a clear shot of his truck pulling in and out of the driveway that morning. And if you watch the body cam footage of him watching this, he is freaking the out. I have never seen.

[A]

His hands are folded on top of his head and extended to wedding.

[B]

It's like he can barely breathe.

[A]

Swaying that back and forth.

[B]

He's losing. His reaction is so guilty. You can tell in this moment that he said, I'm caught. He's got his. It's wild, like. And then every now and then, he'll just stop watching the footage and look at his phone. I have a question, because I asked John this, and he was like, are you kidding me? If I was like, if. If I was missing and our children were missing, and our neighbor said, I have security camera footage of the whole outside of your house, of the time that she has been gone. Glued to it. You would be looking at every pixel on there, hoping to see something. Yup. You would be glued to it. Yep. He barely looks at it. He keeps looking away, keeps looking at his phone. Aren't you waiting to see if someone came and stole your whole family?

[A]

No, because he knows that nobody did.

[B]

I just like. I like. You would never look away from that.

[A]

You can find this video, by the way. And, yeah, you can go watch this video.

[B]

We'll see if we can post one of them.

[A]

I think Drew and I were talking about it because he. Drew's not even super into true crime, but he remembers this case. And he was like, I remember that being, like, one of the craziest breaks in this case.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I showed John. He was shocked. He's losing it. His eyes are bugging. He's swallowing hard. His voice is shaking. And he tells the cops several times that he had been bringing tools out to his truck a lot. And Nate is watching this and also contradicting everything he said. Like, Nate is not afraid to be like, no, though, not true. So when the detective rolls up, Nate has already checked the footage to see if Shanann left the house during the time period she's been missing or if someone else showed up and left with her.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

And he tells the detective right away, no one is caught on that camera. And he says, I would have caught it. One of the people in the house says that they only have Chris pulling up to right up to his garage. And they're like, why did you pull right up to the garage?

[A]

And they said, he never does that.

[B]

And he immediately gets defensive and is still trying to say he just has so many tools that he was loot loading. So many tools, loading just tools all over the place. Did I mention tools and loading them into my truck? Because I did that. I do that. It's my thing. Like, he literally mentions these tools and loading them a hundred times. And he's also looking at his phone, but you can see he's doing that thing that you do to not have to look anyone in the eyes. Like, it's w. Like, where you're just, like, pretending to be on your phone. Like, you can see while he's beeping and booping that it's the move you make when you're uncomfortable in public and you just want to, like, look busy.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So you just kind of, like, open and close apps on your phone and don't actually do anything. He's doing that. We've all done it, but we haven't all been doing that to cover the fact that our neighbor just cracked the case of us annihilating our entire family six hours earlier, he's a idiot.

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

During this Nate absolutely destroys Chris's nervous system further by explaining that his camera actually picks up anyone coming down the street from any direction. So if someone left or if someone came, they would have got it on camera. And then he just clicks it back on and says, and this is him at 5:17. While this happens, did you think Chris would miss another opportunity to mention him loading tools? No, don't worry, he's still talking about loading tools. The problem here is that he isn't looking at the footage. He won't look at the footage so

[A]

he wouldn't know what he was doing.

[B]

I would be crouched down just staring at this footage, trying to find something. Nate just keeps reiterating that if he, he would have seen someone on this tape if there was any action at this house. And he even shows them the previous night where it caught cars coming from each direction. He's like, oh, and look at this day three days ago where it caught somebody coming from this direction. He is not.

[A]

This security system doesn't quit. Yeah, he's much like myself.

[B]

He said, hell yeah, let's. He said, this is weird. Yeah, and you should be seeing this.

[A]

So then they see him loading Shanann

[B]

and the children into the. They see. So that's the. What he did was he pulled. He backed up into his driveway. He opened the garage and he backed up. So the bed of the Truck is in the garage.

[A]

So he put Shannan there.

[B]

He put Shannan in the bed of the truck and then he brought the girls into the truck.

[A]

So can. Does the footage show him putting the kids in the truck at like a weird.

[B]

You can't see it. Cuz it's like on the other side of the. So you see him going in there, but. And you can see that he's doing something. Now at this point, the detective is speaking to his radio, like talking to another detective. And Chris is like, do they need me next door? Should I leave? Should I go? Should I get out of here?

[A]

Get the out of there.

[B]

And the cop is like, no, but he just wants to get the up out of there so badly. He's so upset at this point. He is like cracking. And then something incredible happens.

[A]

No, this is next level. You can't tell me that. That some force is not at work here.

[B]

Like you cannot tell. This is incredible. Right next to Chris, as he looks away, the screen changes. It's a American Horror Story commercial. It's a commercial showing a fetus in a womb. Chris looks over right as it appears and he stares at it for a second. And then he looks up at the cop and he has a look. He looks like he's about to puke.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And he says she was pregnant too. Like it like made him confess that. And he says that this. And as he says that, the screen next to him changes to an explosion. Like a mushroom cloud, which. So weird for that to happen. And then a skull being covered by oil.

[A]

What are the odds of that?

[B]

What are the odds that those two images were next to each other?

[A]

And that's just like a lapse in Nate showing the security camera.

[B]

That's just him like clicking back out of it and into it again by

[A]

happenstance that Kaija was playing.

[B]

Yeah, that's not happenstance. And Chris.

[A]

That is some fucking universal shit at work.

[B]

And when Chris turns his entire body away from the TV at this point, it's wild. He's sweating. He honestly sounds out of breath and his voice is trembling all of a sudden. He was affected by it.

[A]

How could you not be?

[B]

It was unbelievable. But when.

[A]

And also I'm sorry for him to go. And she's. She's pregnant as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You didn't mention that at the top of the day when you. When she got reported missing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why is that just coming up? Hello?

[B]

Now, when Chris does. Well, he didn't report her missing, so.

[A]

But like all. We're this far into this where the Neighbor's like, oh, I have security camera footage, and you still haven't told me, told the cops that your wife missing is pregnant.

[B]

He doesn't care.

[A]

That's just bonkers. Like, be better at.

[B]

He doesn't. Oh, he. He could say, be better at a lot of things. He sucks at all of this.

[A]

It's nuts.

[B]

When Chris does leave, finally, when he's like, when, you know, fate shines upon him and lets him out of that house. Nate immediate. He literally watches him leave, waits for the door to shut, looks right at the detective and says, he's not acting right. He's not not. He points out the inconsistencies, the lack of video showing anyone coming or going besides him, the fact that he never loads tools in and out of his garage, and points out his body language, how he didn't look worried. He kept over explaining the loading tools into the truck thing. And the fact that, according to Nate, quote, he's normally quiet, real subdued. He's over here telling you three times what he took out and what he did. What he did, what he did. He never talks. So the fact that he's over here blabbing his mouth. Mouth makes me kind of suspicious. His neighbor literally gave that detective a gift because he hammered him in front of that detective.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And made it so much easier to see what was going on here. He also says that they were clearly having problems when Shannan left for vacation for five weeks. And he said him and his wife were actually worried that something had happened to her during those five weeks. That's telling. It is this. It's unbelievable footage, to be honest. It's truly unbelievable, the entire thing. What's important, though, is how Shanann's friends did the damn thing. Her neighbors, her friends, like Nate, everybody. They didn't let up. They put pressure on him. And within, like, six hours of him killing his entire family, he was having to answer for it already. He had no time to formulate a fake story or try to cover something up like he thought he would have. He was finding himself with his feet held firmly to the fire right away. And he was up that night. He FaceTimed his mistress. Hello. According to the discovery, he said she said he was sitting on a bare mattress when he did, and she asked where the sheets were, and he was all cagey and said he just wanted to wash them.

[A]

Why would you want to wash the sheets when your wife went missing from the house and your children did, Allegedly.

[B]

Which, by the way, he murdered. Shit. Shannan in their bed. Yep. So she Said he was quiet and that he just kind of stared at her during the call.

[A]

He loves to just.

[B]

He's such a lech. Like, he's such a weird, creepy. Also, remember, his whole family is missing, quote, unquote, and he's FaceTiming his mistress in his room. Like that would put. That would give me pause. Excuse me.

[A]

In him and his wife's room.

[B]

Like, that would give me a lot of pause. Now, according to discovery documents as well, on August 13th, Nicole, his mistress, found out through the media that his wife was pregnant. She did not know before. Oh.

[A]

So she found out that day that

[B]

Shannan went missing and she confronted him about it. And his response was to ask, does this ruin our relationship?

[A]

The fact that your missing wife and two children and unborn child are missing?

[B]

No, he was just concerned with.

[A]

Also, Shannon was only, I believe, like, 15 weeks. Yeah, 15 weeks. So, like, do the math there, babe. Like, he had a relationship with both of you.

[B]

And also, it's just like you're saying. Shannan is all about appearances. All you gave a. With her friends about was, don't think I'm a bad guy. Don't think I'm a bad guy. And now to Nicole, your mistress, you're saying, like, does this ruin everything? I don't want it to ruin everything.

[A]

You still want to pursue somebody while your whole family and children are missing?

[B]

And Nicole even said, like said. Kessinger even said that at this time, he did not seem concerned for his family and instead was solely focused on their relationship.

[A]

That had to have been scary.

[B]

Yeah, And I think it was for her also. There was some talk about, like, should I pawn her wedding ring? That was going on during this time. I don't know exactly what was said, so I won't pretend I do, but there was, like, some talk of that. Why would you pawn her wedding ring? Exactly.

[A]

She's just missing.

[B]

On August 14, he. The next day, he gave what is quite possibly the most damning and guilty interview with the Denver ABC affiliate station that I have ever or will ever see in my life.

[A]

We were pausing at certain parts, like, just like, to move on to the next thing.

[B]

And he.

[A]

If you pause, he will be full blown smiling ear to ear at certain points.

[B]

I have watched this video like, a hundred times at this point. And then I watched this. This. There's this body language clinical psychologist and body language expert Dr. G. On. He's on Tik Tok and on YouTube. I think we'll link him because he's. I think he's fascinating. He's really good at, like, analyzing these things because he doesn't go overboard and he'll say, like, hey, don't pay attention to this thing. This isn't really telling kind of thing. So I watched it a bunch. Then I watched a video with him to go through it. It. And what I saw was Chris Watts is dead eyed in this, like, dead eyed to the point where you're like, is this a condition? Like, what's going on? Why do you have nothing behind there? No affect. Smiling. No, we're gonna get to that. No affect at all, though. No affect. Just dead monotone. Can't even come up with an emotion. There are several things that I noticed here. So one, he swallows hard several times. Big gulping. Swallows huge gulps noticeably. He's pursing his lips and gritting his teeth, which he does during the video with Nate as well. Whenever Nate will point something out, he grits his teeth. That seems to be one of his tells. When he mentions Cece or Bella, he closes his eyes every single time. And what Dr. G, when I watched him, said about that particular thing, because I was wondering what that meant. He said that this could be that what happened, because he particularly doesn't to want when he says Bella. Yeah. And he said this could be that. He said, I. I feel like something particularly heinous happened there that he's trying to block out of his head or just doesn't want to watch again or knows it was particularly bad. And when we get into the details, I'm not going to go into like, super details because to be honest, my psyche can't handle it. But I know them now and I'll work through that. But he is correct that there was extra stuff, which with Bella that I assume. I mean, he's not a real person, so I don't. I don't know what if that's just. To me, that blink, that slow close of his eyes is more what I analyze it as, is like, that's your child. So biologically there has to be something that zings a little with your child. Maybe I'm not a psychopath, so I don't know if they have that. But, like, I imagine there has to be some kind of primitive, biological, evolutionary connection to your child that like. Like something that awful, your body would just kind of like without even an emotion attached to it, just like, yeah, save yourself that.

[A]

It's a. It's a body response.

[B]

Yeah. I think it's not a heart or soul response. I think it's a bodily, physiological Response that like comes from when we were sludge.

[A]

Just like involuntary.

[B]

That's like your brain is like, oh, my job is to protect you from that. So I'm gonna close your eyes was. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's that clinical.

[A]

It's just like how your body keeps breathing even.

[B]

Like. Yeah, I don't think it's that. Yeah, he has a feeling about it. Like I don't think he cares. I don't think that it hurts him. I think he just has a primitive like. Yeah, that was really bad. You know, like. And so he closes his eyes because he does it every time. It's very noticeable and very consistent. He's swaying, he's hugging himself, which could. And, and when I watched the Dr. G video, he also said that this, that's like a self soothing thing and also like a nervous thing.

[A]

So even if he was actually missing, he might have done the same thing.

[B]

Yeah, like, I don't. I would probably do that too, I guess. I don't know. But then he smiles a lot. A lot.

[A]

He cannot, it's. Again, it seems involuntary. He can't help it.

[B]

Well, and it starts when the interviewer said. When he tells the interviewer that he hopes Shannan and the kids are safe. That's when he starts. Start smiling because he knows they're not. And there's something called Duper's delight.

[A]

I find this so fascinating. So, so horrible, but so fascinating.

[B]

So basically what Duper's delight is, and this has been connected to him a lot. Yeah. Is that like somebody who lies and you know, manipulates will feel like a smugness and like some kind of delight. Like a happiness when they are deceiving

[A]

someone or they think they are at the least.

[B]

And they're. When they're getting away with it. Which he is right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's, that's genuine. And it manifests as this little like smirk or like that he gets. He gets it often in this interview. It's not. And I'm glad that like cuz when I was watching it I was like, listen, I will smile in weird situations because I get nervous and I'm.

[A]

So when your three children are missing,

[B]

this is just simply not one of the. I will, I will tell you. Sure. Don't judge people's responses to certain things 100%. Judge this because there is. I was saying this earlier. My body wouldn't be able to form a smile.

[A]

No.

[B]

If my children were actually missing and my husband was missing, I would be in such severe grief. And turmoil that my body would forget how to smile. I would never be able to have a smile again. I just wouldn't. Especially not hours after it happened when we don't know what's going on.

[A]

He also just, like, looks like he's acting insane, obviously, but he looks put together. He does not look disheveled. He doesn't look like he's been crying.

[B]

He's not crying. Yep. When he says if they're safe now, they're going to come back, he knows they aren't. So he's not. That's a way of him not lying. He's saying if they're safe, then they're going to come back.

[A]

But they're not.

[B]

But they're not because he killed them. So I don't have to lie here. So this is comforting. And he looks comforted. He's like, like very smug. Yeah.

[A]

Like SM smirk.

[B]

Like he almost got away with something there. And he says it a couple of times. And as the interview goes and he talks about the empty house and how he hates it, he smiles more and more. That empty house made him so happy. Yeah. When the interviewer says he's going to ask some tough questions, he purses his lips. And according to Dr. G, that's to literally hold things in. Or it's because he knows he's got to keep his mouth shut. It's a response that we have when we know we have to keep quiet about something. So it's like literally, physically keep it in. And he also had one thing he misses about them is what he said.

[A]

He nuts.

[B]

He was like, yeah, I just, you know, I miss. And it's what he misses about them since they've been gone is telling them they can't have a treat if they don't eat, finish their dinner. That's. That's the memory you chose.

[A]

Of all the memories that you've created

[B]

over the three and four years that they've. The one memory you could come up with was, I miss telling them they

[A]

can't have dessert and them snuggling on

[B]

their own couch, watching TV by themselves, watching tv.

[A]

Not even like, being snuggled up with them on our couch watching TV together.

[B]

Literally. My first thought as like, I'm like, you don't miss cuddling them. You don't miss holding them. You don't miss their smell. You don't miss the sound of their voice. You don't miss tucking them into bed.

[A]

You miss shoving them in front of a TV on their own designated area

[B]

and not having anything to do with them and just putting on bubble guppies

[A]

and telling them that they won't have. Have a treat if they don't finish dinner.

[B]

Like, what?

[A]

That.

[B]

That alone is like, what?

[A]

Diabolical.

[B]

You don't have any other. I'm like, yeah, you.

[A]

He didn't Google what people would miss about their children beforehand.

[B]

Literally. And that's not even a joke. That's, like, real.

[A]

No, I'm being dead.

[B]

Like, I genuinely think he would have. Would have googled it if he thought he could get away with it.

[A]

Just like he googled, what does it feel like when someone says they love you?

[B]

The more he talks about no one being in the house the night before. Before. The more he smiles. Like, he's like, I. You know, I didn't put on their rain machine and I didn't turn on their monitor and I didn't put them into bed. The more he says, the more he smiles. And Dr. G pointed out that this is. As he lists the responsibilities associated with having children, he smiles more because he doesn't have them now.

[A]

So.

[B]

And he full out laughs at one point.

[A]

It's not even like a A, it's a no.

[B]

He literally says, I just want them back. And the most genuine smile crosses right into his eyes. For the first time, he has life in his eyes. He laughs. He literally goes, I just want them back.

[A]

If you pause it too. He is grinning from ear to ear. We were watching it with Debbie, and she was like, I would think that this is somebody being interviewed about, like, their child making the honor, like an accomplishment or like a sports win, like,

[B]

being so proud of them. What it is one of the most chilling. And at one point, he's blinking over time when they ask him if he was searching, like, if he was out searching, which you would be doing. He starts saying, no, the police told me I shouldn't because I wouldn't even know what I was looking for. And he starts blinking, and it's. He wasn't doing this before because they didn't say that. And he starts blinking like crazy. And then the cameraman does the lords work and zooms right in on his face as he is blinking like a crazy person. And he continues to blink as they ask about, like, did the neighbors go? Did they go to door? Like, what happened? He keeps blinking while he's saying no and blah, blah. Like, he just starts losing it. Like he's losing it. And the. And he's trying to. To act like he's crying, but there is absolutely no tears.

[A]

There's no Moisture.

[B]

And he only tries that once. He tries to pretend, like, as he's saying that, I think it's during, like, the. I didn't turn on the rain machine and blah, blah. He. He tries to act, like, make his voice sound like it's about to cry, but then he starts smiling, so he really. I think he just abandons that. And I remember seeing this interview on the news in 2018, standing in my living room, and I looked right at John and I said, he did it. Yeah. And I remember John had just walked in the room. He hadn't seen the interview. And I was like, this guy did it. And he was like, what is this? And I told him what it was. And he was like, that's horrific. Like, what do you mean? You can't accuse that he killed his pregnant wife and his two babies. Like, what? And I was like, he did it. Like, I remember vividly I said it to you. I was literally like, this guy killed his entire family. And it was the most obvious interview you have ever seen. Right.

[A]

Because I'm sure probably once you showed John the full thing, he was like, oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh. Showing it to him the other. I showed it to him last night because I was like, this is the interview I was talking about. And he was like, oh. Like, he was just like, look. And yeah. So that interview happened the very next day. And I so glad he did that interview. And he had actually said to Sandy, Shanann's mom, there's an interview with her where she says she had actually advised him not to do any interviews because she said, you're the last person who saw them. I just don't think you should give any interviews right now. I think you should be talking to investigators. And that's it.

[A]

Which wild. That like.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Like that shows who she is, that even she was trying to, like, help him out there.

[B]

Yeah. Because. And he obviously didn't listen. And she said about that particular interview, she said, I thank God he didn't

[A]

listen to me every single day. Every single.

[B]

She said, I thank God that might

[A]

make me believe in God.

[B]

She was like, that. That was perfect. Like, thank you for doing that.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And so that's how his. That's how her mom was handling it. And then his mom in the interview that. That came out later with her, said that at this point, his mom believed that she and Shannan had just taken. Taken the girls and left. She didn't think that they were actually missing. We are going to get into what happens next, which happens pretty quick thanks to everybody being so fast and everybody pressing on him, everyone not giving him a second to formulate a coherent story or cover story. It's honestly when you see because his co workers started to turning and basically being like, people around him were being like, oh, I think he was having an affair, by the way. And like, hey, you should know this and hey, you should know that. Meanwhile, her people, like her crew were all like rallying to find her, rallying to get everything done. Like the difference in the people that he had versus the people she did because it shows you who they were.

[A]

He didn't have a lot of friends.

[B]

Yeah, he didn't. She did. He didn't. And the people that were around him, a lot of them were like, no, thank you. Yeah. So what we are gonna do is part two will be going right into when he is taken in and has to take a polygraph. And that is when everything unravels and when the real story comes out. And we will talk about that and then we will get into the paranormal aspects, some of the weird aspects of the end of this case. Yeah. So stay tuned for that.

[A]

All right, brothers. Oh, let me get a fun fact,

[B]

a really fun fact.

[A]

I have to get this fun this

[B]

fact, cuz this is destroying my psyche.

[A]

Nutmeg is technically a hallucinogen.

[B]

I didn't know that. I didn't know that either.

[A]

This is from Cosmopolitan. It says the spice contains mistressin, a natural compound that has mind altering effects if ingested in large doses.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

So it's a good thing that when we were all doing the cinnamon challenge, we didn't do the nutmeg challenge.

[B]

Holy. I did not do the cinnamon challenge.

[A]

I didn't do it willingly.

[B]

You didn't do it willingly?

[A]

No, my friend.

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

I didn't know that you couldn't swallow cinnamon. Why would I know that?

[B]

Yeah, I was like 14. I was gonna say you were young.

[A]

I was young. So I tried and I choked and almost died.

[B]

And then. Yeah, that can literally kill you.

[A]

Yeah, it almost killed me.

[B]

Don't do those stupid challenges, everybody, because most of them can kill you. Everyone's just lucky that they didn't die.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

People did die. I think with that one of the cinnamon challenge. Yeah, I think that actually like hurt people. Okay, that's not a fun fact.

[A]

But the fact that nutmeg is a hallucinogen is. That's a fun fact or can be a hallucination.

[B]

I'll take that one as the fun fact.

[A]

I put nutmeg in a lot of stuff. Especially in the fall.

[B]

Oh, in the fall.

[A]

Better be careful.

[B]

I'm tripping in the fall.

[A]

Maybe that's why we're all tripping. Yeah, that's why we fall so much.

[B]

Everyone's like, woo. Yeah, I like that.

[A]

Period.

[B]

All right. Hell yeah.

[A]

Well, we love you guys.

[B]

We hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird.

[A]

You better not have to have me to tell you not to keep it as weird as Chris Stupid ass Cars Watts.

[B]

But I'm telling you, don't keep it that weird. Go look at the discovery documents. They're fascinating and horrifying. Keep it that weird. Yeah.

[A]

Bye, dolls.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

This is a Monday.com ad, the same Monday.com helping people worldwide, getting work done faster and better. The samemonday.com designed for every team and every industry. The samemonday.com with built in AI, scaling your work from day one. The same Monday.com that your team will actually love using the samemonday.com with an easy and intuitive setup. Go to Monday.com and try it for free. Yes, the same Monday.com. hey listeners. I'm Ash.

[B]

And I'm Alayna.

[A]

And we are so excited to have joined the SiriusXM family.

[B]

And you know what? If you want to keep hearing new episodes of Morbid Ad free, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcast+ on Apple Podcasts or visit siriusxm.com podcastsplus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. Let's go.