Podcast Summary: More or Less

Episode: Is Greenland as big as Africa?
Host: Tim Harford (BBC Radio 4)
Guest: Jay Foreman (YouTube’s Map Men, Co-author of "This Way Up When Maps Go Wrong")
Date: January 24, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the enduring misconceptions created by world maps, focusing especially on Greenland’s apparent size compared to Africa. Tim Harford and guest Jay Foreman explore why Greenland looks so gigantic on most maps, how geographic projections distort reality, and why these cartographic quirks can even influence politics. Along the way, the episode breaks down the impacts of the Mercator projection, compares Greenland to other countries, and humorously speculates on how better geography education might avert international drama.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Greenland in the News and Political Context

• [01:22–02:30]
  The episode opens with Greenland’s sudden centrality in international politics, referencing a (fictionalized) U.S. President Donald Trump’s fascination with possibly acquiring Greenland.
  • "It's the United States alone that can protect this giant mass of land… that's the reason I'm seeking immediate negotiations to once again discuss the acquisition of Greenland by the United States." (Donald Trump, 01:52)

2. The Illusion of Size on World Maps

• [02:30–03:57]
  Tim Harford introduces Jay Foreman, who outlines why Greenland looks much larger than it really is on common maps.
  • The culprit? The Mercator projection, a centuries-old way to lay out the globe on a flat surface.
  • "Greenland is one of the hardest places in the world to show on a map where it really is." (Jay Foreman, 02:45)

3. How the Mercator Projection Distorts Reality

• [03:57–05:27]
  • The Mercator projection drastically stretches landmasses near the poles (like Greenland) while keeping shapes accurate, not sizes.
  • "On the Mercator projection, Greenland and Africa look more or less the same size, but in real life, Africa is 14 times bigger than Greenland." (Jay Foreman, 05:39)
  • Distances from Greenland to other regions are also warped: from the US coast (Maine) it’s 1,200 miles, from Denmark 1,300 miles, and also 1,300 miles from Alaska—contradicting map intuitions.

4. Real World Comparisons: Greenland, Africa, and India

• [05:39–06:16]
  • Africa is 14 times larger than Greenland.
  • Greenland appears bigger than India on maps, but it is only about half India’s size in reality.

5. Why Map Distortion Matters (and Political Implications)

• [06:19–07:44]
  • The hosts joke that politicians (like Trump) might be misled by Mercator’s distortions into overestimating Greenland’s importance.
  • Greenland actually has strategic value, being roughly equidistant from Alaska, Canada, Denmark, and Russia, a fact more obvious on globes.
  • "I wonder if just showing him a globe might make him rethink just how valuable it is." (Jay Foreman, 06:29)

6. Alternative Map Projections—Is There a "Best" Way?

• [07:45–08:56]
  • Every 2D map sacrifices something: Mercator prioritizes shape and navigation, Gore Peters prioritizes area but distorts shape.
  • "No matter how you decide to interpret a round world onto a flat map, you have to have some kind of distortion… every projection has a different compromise." (Jay Foreman, 07:48)

7. The Historical Reason for the Mercator Projection

• [08:35–08:56]
  • Mercator designed his map for navigational accuracy—not for geopolitical accuracy.
  • "Mercator, his job wasn't to try and make the colonial powers of Northern Europe look bigger than they were. That was just a nice little side effect..." (Jay Foreman, 09:10, 09:18)

8. Final Thoughts: Maps, Misconceptions, and Cartographic Compromises

• [09:22–09:54]
  • The episode ends reflecting on how the infinite stretching of the poles on flat maps makes Greenland seem even more immense and alluring—for at least some world leaders.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the distortion of size:
  • "Africa is 14 times bigger than Greenland. So Greenland is enormous... but you could fit it into Africa 14 times." (Jay Foreman, 05:39)
• On mapmaking compromises:
  • "No matter how you decide to interpret a round world onto a flat map... every projection has a different compromise." (Jay Foreman, 07:48)
• On influencing geopolitics:
  • "There is a popular theory that the reason Donald Trump is so keen on Greenland is because he's been looking at the Mercator projection." (Jay Foreman, 06:29)
• On the root cause:
  • "But the reason that it looks like it does is because that was genuinely useful for navigation." (Jay Foreman, 09:22)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Greenland’s Geopolitical Moment: 01:22–02:30
• Introduction of Jay Foreman and Map Distortion: 02:45–03:57
• Mercator’s Effect on Greenland’s Size: 03:57–05:27
• Greenland vs. Africa vs. India: 05:39–06:16
• Maps and Political Perception: 06:19–07:44
• Understanding Map Projections: 07:45–08:56
• Mercator’s Original Purpose: 08:35–09:54

Tone and Language

The episode’s tone balances educational clarity with playful skepticism. Harford and Foreman keep language accessible and occasionally tongue-in-cheek—as when they joke about politicians being misled by maps. Jay Foreman’s explanations mix historical context with vivid, relatable analogies.

Summary

This episode of More or Less uncovers why Greenland’s size on traditional maps is vastly exaggerated and explores how centuries-old cartographic decisions continue to shape contemporary political discourse and misunderstandings. Harford and Foreman demystify popular projections, reveal the extent of map-based illusions, and offer a gentle reminder: whenever possible, check a globe.