Is Greenland as big as Africa?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: More or Less

Episode: Is Greenland as big as Africa?
Host: Tim Harford (BBC Radio 4)
Guest: Jay Foreman (YouTube’s Map Men, Co-author of "This Way Up When Maps Go Wrong")
Date: January 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the enduring misconceptions created by world maps, focusing especially on Greenland’s apparent size compared to Africa. Tim Harford and guest Jay Foreman explore why Greenland looks so gigantic on most maps, how geographic projections distort reality, and why these cartographic quirks can even influence politics. Along the way, the episode breaks down the impacts of the Mercator projection, compares Greenland to other countries, and humorously speculates on how better geography education might avert international drama.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Greenland in the News and Political Context

• [01:22–02:30]
  The episode opens with Greenland’s sudden centrality in international politics, referencing a (fictionalized) U.S. President Donald Trump’s fascination with possibly acquiring Greenland.
  • "It's the United States alone that can protect this giant mass of land… that's the reason I'm seeking immediate negotiations to once again discuss the acquisition of Greenland by the United States." (Donald Trump, 01:52)

2. The Illusion of Size on World Maps

• [02:30–03:57]
  Tim Harford introduces Jay Foreman, who outlines why Greenland looks much larger than it really is on common maps.
  • The culprit? The Mercator projection, a centuries-old way to lay out the globe on a flat surface.
  • "Greenland is one of the hardest places in the world to show on a map where it really is." (Jay Foreman, 02:45)

3. How the Mercator Projection Distorts Reality

• [03:57–05:27]
  • The Mercator projection drastically stretches landmasses near the poles (like Greenland) while keeping shapes accurate, not sizes.
  • "On the Mercator projection, Greenland and Africa look more or less the same size, but in real life, Africa is 14 times bigger than Greenland." (Jay Foreman, 05:39)
  • Distances from Greenland to other regions are also warped: from the US coast (Maine) it’s 1,200 miles, from Denmark 1,300 miles, and also 1,300 miles from Alaska—contradicting map intuitions.

4. Real World Comparisons: Greenland, Africa, and India

• [05:39–06:16]
  • Africa is 14 times larger than Greenland.
  • Greenland appears bigger than India on maps, but it is only about half India’s size in reality.

5. Why Map Distortion Matters (and Political Implications)

• [06:19–07:44]
  • The hosts joke that politicians (like Trump) might be misled by Mercator’s distortions into overestimating Greenland’s importance.
  • Greenland actually has strategic value, being roughly equidistant from Alaska, Canada, Denmark, and Russia, a fact more obvious on globes.
  • "I wonder if just showing him a globe might make him rethink just how valuable it is." (Jay Foreman, 06:29)

6. Alternative Map Projections—Is There a "Best" Way?

• [07:45–08:56]
  • Every 2D map sacrifices something: Mercator prioritizes shape and navigation, Gore Peters prioritizes area but distorts shape.
  • "No matter how you decide to interpret a round world onto a flat map, you have to have some kind of distortion… every projection has a different compromise." (Jay Foreman, 07:48)

7. The Historical Reason for the Mercator Projection

• [08:35–08:56]
  • Mercator designed his map for navigational accuracy—not for geopolitical accuracy.
  • "Mercator, his job wasn't to try and make the colonial powers of Northern Europe look bigger than they were. That was just a nice little side effect..." (Jay Foreman, 09:10, 09:18)

8. Final Thoughts: Maps, Misconceptions, and Cartographic Compromises

• [09:22–09:54]
  • The episode ends reflecting on how the infinite stretching of the poles on flat maps makes Greenland seem even more immense and alluring—for at least some world leaders.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the distortion of size:
  • "Africa is 14 times bigger than Greenland. So Greenland is enormous... but you could fit it into Africa 14 times." (Jay Foreman, 05:39)
• On mapmaking compromises:
  • "No matter how you decide to interpret a round world onto a flat map... every projection has a different compromise." (Jay Foreman, 07:48)
• On influencing geopolitics:
  • "There is a popular theory that the reason Donald Trump is so keen on Greenland is because he's been looking at the Mercator projection." (Jay Foreman, 06:29)
• On the root cause:
  • "But the reason that it looks like it does is because that was genuinely useful for navigation." (Jay Foreman, 09:22)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Greenland’s Geopolitical Moment: 01:22–02:30
• Introduction of Jay Foreman and Map Distortion: 02:45–03:57
• Mercator’s Effect on Greenland’s Size: 03:57–05:27
• Greenland vs. Africa vs. India: 05:39–06:16
• Maps and Political Perception: 06:19–07:44
• Understanding Map Projections: 07:45–08:56
• Mercator’s Original Purpose: 08:35–09:54

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Tone and Language

The episode’s tone balances educational clarity with playful skepticism. Harford and Foreman keep language accessible and occasionally tongue-in-cheek—as when they joke about politicians being misled by maps. Jay Foreman’s explanations mix historical context with vivid, relatable analogies.

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Summary

This episode of More or Less uncovers why Greenland’s size on traditional maps is vastly exaggerated and explores how centuries-old cartographic decisions continue to shape contemporary political discourse and misunderstandings. Harford and Foreman demystify popular projections, reveal the extent of map-based illusions, and offer a gentle reminder: whenever possible, check a globe.

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Transcript

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[Helena Merriman]

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau. Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tim Harford]

Hello and thanks for downloading the more or less podcast. We're the programme that looks at the numbers in the news, in life and in odd shaped maps of the world. I'm Tim Harford. The global news story of the week has undoubtedly been Greenland, the vast Arctic island and autonomous territory of the Kingdom of Denmark. This week, it's found itself at the center of a geopolitical crisis.

[Donald Trump]

It's the United States alone that can protect this giant mass of land, this giant piece of ice, develop it and improve it, and make it so that it's good for Europe and safe for Europe and good for us. And that's the reason I'm seeking immediate negotiations to once again discuss the acquisition of Greenland by the United States.

[News Reporter]

President Trump says he won't go ahead with the trade tariffs he'd threatened to impose on allied countries that have supported Denmark's sovereignty over Greenland. Mr. Trump said a meeting with the head of NATO, Mark Rutte, had led to the framework of a potential deal covering Greenland and the Arctic region.

[Tim Harford]

As with any geopolitical crisis, it's always good to remind ourselves of the geography. And when it comes to Greenland, that geography is more complicated than you might expect.

[Jay Foreman]

Greenland is one of the hardest places in the world to show on a map where it really is.

[Tim Harford]

That's Jay Forman, one half of the YouTube duo Map Men and co author of the book this Way When Maps Go Wrong. If you look up Greenland on a standard map of the world, as almost.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

All the statesmen and women of the.

[Tim Harford]

World would have done this week, Greenland seems, to be blunt, absolutely massive. Bigger than South America, bigger than China, bigger even than the entire continent of Africa. It also appears to sit conveniently close to the east coast of the United States and much further away from Denmark. But it turns out that this is all a bit of an illusion. So why?

[Jay Foreman]

Jay Foreman it's very, very far north.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

And the map that we're mostly used to looking at is a flat map of the round world.

[Jay Foreman]

And what that means is you have to dist the world and you have to do either squashing, stretching or slicing to make it work. And Greenland is a victim of this because Greenland being so close to the top, Greenland being so far north means that it usually has to be massively stretched. And it changes not only where it appears in relation to other places, it also changes the size.

[Tim Harford]

Yes, when you project a spherical world onto a rectangle, this spells trouble. And the person who got us into this particular trouble is everyone's favourite 16th century Flemish cartograph, Gerardus Mercator. The standard flat rectangular map of the world that almost everyone uses was invented by him and it's known as the Mercator projection. As Jay explains on the Mercator projection, the further towards the poles you go, the more things get stretched, and this produces some enormous distortions. First, Greenland looks much closer to America than to Denmark, but it isn't.

[Jay Foreman]

It's easy to get mixed up when.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

You'Re looking at a flat map, but if you look at Google Earth and then measure it from looking at the.

[Jay Foreman]

North Pole down, Greenland is 1,200 miles from the nearest US coast, which is Maine, and it's 1,300 miles from the nearest Danish coast, so ever so slightly.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

Further, but not a lot in it.

[Jay Foreman]

And it's Also, interestingly, it's 1,300 miles from Alaska, which intuitively doesn't feel right.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

At all when you look at a flat map. But if you look from the North.

[Jay Foreman]

Pole, looking down, you can see that Greenland is in the center of everything and roughly equidistant from Alaska, Maine and Denmark.

[Tim Harford]

Are Denmark and us the closest countries to Greenland?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Presumably Canada must be closer.

[Jay Foreman]

No, closer to Greenland is Canada, which it's very close to, and Iceland is also just around the corner. And it's interesting that Iceland and Greenland, if you just look at the colours they are on the map, they seem.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

To have been named the wrong way around.

[Tim Harford]

So distances are distorted. But the most obvious map distortion is how it changes sizes. For instance, look at how Greenland and Africa compare.

[Jay Foreman]

On the Mercator Projection, Greenland and Africa look more or less the same size, but in real Life, Africa is 14 times bigger than Greenland. So Greenland is enormous. It's the largest island in the world, depending on what you class as an island instead of a continent. So it's enormous, but you could fit it into Africa 14 times.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

And comparing Greenland, for example, to the world's most populous country, India, looks vastly bigger on the Mercator projection. What about in reality?

[Jay Foreman]

In reality or on the globe, Greenland is about half the size of India. And they're a slightly similar shape as well.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

They're sort of triangle with a pointy.

[Jay Foreman]

Bit at the bottom. So it's easy to compare the size.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

When you look on a globe. But of course, when you look on.

[Jay Foreman]

The famous flat Mercator projection map, it looks far too big.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Interesting. So are you saying that we might be able to avoid a geopolitical crisis by just looking less at flat maps and looking a little bit more at globes?

[Jay Foreman]

There is a popular theory that the reason Donald Trump is so keen on Greenland is because he's been looking at the Mercator projection. And it looks like by acquiring Greenland, he would enormously increase the size of the usa. And I wonder if just showing him.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

A globe might make him rethink just.

[Jay Foreman]

How valuable it is. Although the other problem is that by looking at a globe, you can see much more accurately than on a Mercator projection. Exactly why it's such a strategic position. And because it's sort of in the center of the world, in a way. By looking down, it's very close to Alaska and the north of Russia and Scandinavia and Iceland and the coast of Canada, which is something you don't really get to appreciate if you look at.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

A traditional flat map.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Yes, I can see why the Donald Trump needs to look at a globe theory has caught on on social media. But I strongly suspect that at some stage somebody has shown Donald Trump a globe and it doesn't necessarily change his views on things. So you've mentioned the Mercator projection. This is the most famous effort to project a sphere onto a flat surface.

[Tim Harford]

Why is it so bad?

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Surely there must be a better way to do it.

[Jay Foreman]

There's lots of different ways of doing it. So the problem is, no matter how you decide to interpret a round world onto a flat map, you have to have some kind of distortion, something has to be sacrificed. You either have to score squash bits or stretch bits, or slice bits. And every projection has a different compromise. One of the most famous ones is the Gore Peters projection, which has accuracy for area size, but it's very inaccurate for shape, so it makes Africa look twice as long as it is wide. But the much more famous one is the Mercator projection, where even though the area sizes are all massively distorted, the shapes are accurate. And this, it turns out, when people were sailing around the world hundreds of years ago was incredibly useful. And the Mercator projection was developed to make it easier to sail from one place to another. So that roughly a straight line on the sea is the same as a.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

Straight line on a map or a.

[Jay Foreman]

Curved rum line they used to call it.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

So interesting. So Mercator didn't particularly care about making everything the right shape. He was trying to solve a navigational problem. And it just so happens that this property of a straight line on the map is a straight line in reality, that preserves the shapes but not the sizes.

[Jay Foreman]

That's right. So Greenland, or at least the southern portion of Greenland that's not been stretched quite so much, looks like it's the right kind of shape and the angles are all accurate, but the area has been massively distorted.

[Tim Harford]

And do you have sympathy with Mercator.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Or do you think there's an obvious better way to do things?

[Jay Foreman]

Well, it doesn't matter which method you choose, there's going to be a compromise of some sort. And Mercator, his job wasn't to try and make the colonial powers of Northern.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

Europe look bigger than they were.

[Jay Foreman]

That was just a nice little side.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

Effect for northern Europe.

[Jay Foreman]

But the reason that it looks like it does is because that was genuinely useful for navigation. But what it means is depending on the method you use, because there are different types of Mercator projections and there is a version where the North Pole stretches infinitely forever because no matter how much you try to unfold the fine.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

Point that is the North Pole, if.

[Jay Foreman]

You try and stretch it to fill.

[Jay Foreman (continued or another expert)]

A map, you could actually have it.

[Jay Foreman]

Go up and up forever. So you can see why it might be appealing to get your hands on Greenland if it looks like it's an infinitely large property.

[Tim Harford]

Our thanks to Jay Foreman, one half of YouTube sensation Map Men, and the.

[Co-host or Interviewer]

Co author of the book this Way.

[Tim Harford]

Up When Maps Go Wrong. If you have any questions or comments, please get in touch at more or lessbc.co.uk we'll be back next time. And until then, goodbye.

[Helena Merriman]

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merryman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.