Is London France’s sixth largest city?

Summary

More or Less: Is London France’s Sixth Largest City?

Podcast: More or Less, BBC Radio 4
Hosts: Wesley Stevenson & Charlotte MacDonald
Air Date: March 29, 2014

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Overview

This episode of More or Less investigates the widely circulated claim that "London is France's sixth biggest city" due to its large French expatriate population. Wesley Stevenson and Charlotte MacDonald dissect where this statistic comes from, how accurate it is, and what it reflects about French and British society, entrepreneurship, and migration. Their search for the truth leads through conflicting sources, issues of statistical methodology, and the economic myths surrounding cross-Channel migration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origin of the Claim

• Multiple media and political sources have cited that London is "France's sixth biggest city" due to its French population.
• Clip from Mayor of London, Boris Johnson (01:12):

  “I said there were 250,000 French men and women in London and therefore I was the mayor of the sixth biggest French city on earth.”

• The figure quoted by media and the French Embassy often ranges between 250,000 to 400,000.

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2. Investigating the Numbers

a. Discrepancy Between Estimates

• French Embassy's commonly cited figure: 300,000 French people in the UK, with the "majority in London" (02:34).
• Office for National Statistics (ONS) household survey finds 66,000 French nationals in London (03:15).
  • Pamela Dent (ONS statistician):

    "For the estimate for French nationals living in households in London, it's 66,000 with a margin of error of plus or minus 13,000..." (03:15)

• Even including students and care homes via UK census data, the total is only 86,000 French nationals in Greater London (03:52).

b. Embassy’s Methodology

• The French Embassy aggregates several data sources, including consulate registrations, electoral data, and government departments (05:08).
• Xavier Chatel (French Embassy spokesperson):

  “We reckon that the number must be roughly in the 270,000, that is 90% of the 300 or so thousand French people present in the UK.” (05:08)

• Embassy’s "London" encompasses Greater London and parts of Kent, Oxfordshire, and Sussex—much wider than the usual city definition (05:24).

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3. What Counts as a "City"?

• Eric Albert (Le Monde) highlights that the definition of city boundaries differs drastically between Paris, London, and other French cities (06:18):

  "Greater London is way bigger than Paris, so you have to compare the urban areas of France with British cities."

• Based on the ONS numbers, London ranks lower than 60th on the list of French cities by population. Even using the Embassy’s broad estimate, it ranks only 23rd—not 6th (06:35).

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4. Economic & Political Myths

• The claim about London being a magnet for French workers is often cited as evidence of French decline and UK prosperity.
• Host Charlotte MacDonald notes the narrative around easier entrepreneurship and more jobs in London, contrasted with France’s slow growth and higher taxes (02:07).
• Eric Albert refutes the myth that French taxes are significantly higher than UK's (07:19):

  "It's rubbish. Income tax is roughly the same in both countries. Actually, if you have children, you're better off in France..." “If you want to move out of France because of tax, you're not coming to Britain.”

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5. French Emigration in Context

• Reports claim French emigration increased by 60% since 2000, implying national decline (08:05).
• Liam Bugard (Rude Baguette blog):

  "France at number five in Europe for percentage of citizens living outside of the country, with the UK actually in first. ... Europe enables people to be mobile." (08:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the statisticians’ dilemma:
  Host Charlotte MacDonald:

  "So we're a bit stuck at this point. The ONS are absolutely sure about their figure, but the French Embassy are sure about their figure too." (04:04)

• On the boundary definitions:
  Host Charlotte MacDonald:

  "This is a much bigger area than just the City of London... now talking about places like Oxford... and Sussex, which is a county that stretches right down to the English Channel." (05:41)

• Debunking economic myths:
  Eric Albert:

  “London would not be the place for tax evasion.” (07:19)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:37 — Setting up the investigation: French population claims air on UK radio.
• 01:12 — Boris Johnson’s anecdote about London as the "sixth biggest French city".
• 02:34 — Host contacts French Embassy and ONS, explores differing estimates.
• 03:15 — ONS statistician Pamela Dent explains UK survey methodology and results.
• 04:04 — Confronting discrepancies between different data sources.
• 05:08 — French Embassy spokesperson discusses methodology and the broad definition of “London”.
• 06:18 — Eric Albert (Le Monde) on why population comparisons are tricky.
• 06:35 — Where London really ranks among French cities.
• 07:19 — Eric Albert debunks myths about taxes and migration motives.
• 08:15 — Liam Bugard adds Emigration context using EU statistics.

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Tone & Style

• The episode maintains a playful, skeptical tone, poking fun at Anglo-French rivalries and numbers-driven headlines.
• Hosts challenge data sources with good humor and an investigative spirit, balancing facts with entertaining commentary.

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Conclusion

The More or Less team concludes that London is not France’s sixth largest city by population, and likely doesn't even crack the top 60—debunking the headline-grabbing statistic. The episode also addresses misconceptions about migration, economic opportunity, and tax motives, revealing that the truth is far more nuanced and less sensational than political soundbites suggest.

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Best Quote:

"So London isn't France's sixth city and it possibly isn't even in the top 60. And perhaps rumors of France's decline are just a little bit exaggerated." — Wesley Stevenson (08:33)

Transcript

[A]

This is the short edition of More or Less first broadcast on the BBC World Service.

[B]

Thank you for downloading from the BBC. For details of our complete range of podcasts and our terms of use, go to bbcworldservice.com podcasts.

[C]

Bonjour et bienvenue a plus moin. Cel est cervies Internationale de la BBC. JeSuise.

[A]

Wesley Stevenson, Charlotte Macdonald,

[C]

That's enough of the French. And just in case you didn't get that, this is more or less on the BBC World Service and I'm Wesley Stevenson with Charlotte MacDonald. Now, that clip that you heard there was from French radio in 2008. You don't understand. Well, listen to these clips broadcast in the UK earlier this year, quoting the same fact. There are so many French people living in Britain these days that London counts as France's sixth biggest city.

[A]

London being France's sixth biggest city. And the French consulate says 400,000.

[C]

And here's the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, recounting when he met Alain Juppet, the mayor of Bordeaux.

[D]

Morning, everyone. Good God. He said that he had 239,517 people in Bordeaux and therefore he had the honour of representing the 9th biggest city in France. I got the ball back very firmly over the net folks, because I said there were 250,000 French men and women in London and therefore I was the mayor of the sixth biggest French city on earth. I can't remember exactly what he said then.

[A]

Boris Johnson says there are 250,000 French people in London. Some estimates say 300 to 400,000. But are there really that many?

[C]

Now, before we tell you if it's true, there are a few things you need to know. There's a long standing rivalry between the UK and France. It goes back hundreds of years. Which country can boast to be more successful, more sophisticated, more advanced? I mean, obviously it's Britain.

[A]

You can't say that.

[C]

That London is the sixth biggest French city illustrates a popular idea that the UK's capital is booming. It's good for entrepreneurs, easy to set up a business and, and there are more jobs while France is stagnating.

[A]

The idea that the French community in London is bigger than most French cities has been around for a while, but we noticed this week that the French press were discussing it again, so we

[C]

thought this was a good opportunity to see how true it really is.

[A]

The figure that crops up most often is about 300,000, which is attributed to the French Embassy in London. But when I called them up, they said this figure is actually for the whole of the uk, though. So they did say that the majority would be in the capital.

[C]

The problem is, we also got in touch with the UK's Office for National Statistics, often known as the ONS, and their figures are actually different. They carry out a household survey once a year, and according to the most recent figures, there are less than half that amount. Around 123,000 French nationals in the whole of the uk and only 66,000 are in London. We spoke to one of their statisticians, Pamela Dent, to ask her how sure she was of their figures.

[E]

ONS publishes confidence intervals to give an indication of the reliability of the estimates. So for the estimate for French nationals living in households In London, it's 66,000 with a margin of error of plus or minus 13,000. So this refers to the 95% confidence interval and shows the range over many repeats of the sample in which we would expect the true value that we're trying to estimate to lie 95% of the time.

[C]

So they're pretty sure their figures.

[F]

Right.

[C]

But these ONS household surveys don't count everyone. Students in halls of residence or people in care homes, for example, are left out.

[A]

But even if we look at recent census data, which does include these people, we only reach a figure of 86,000, not even close to the 300,000 originally quoted.

[C]

So we're a bit stuck at this point. The ONS are absolutely sure about their figure, but the French Embassy are sure about their figure too. So how do they count the number of French citizens in London?

[A]

It is a nice spot office thing. I got invited along to the Embassy buildings in Knightsbridge to meet press spokesperson Xavier Chatel. He was very smart, very polite. He agreed to talk to me about the numbers.

[G]

I think there is no single absolute authoritative measure. This is Europe. So people are free to come, they are free to go, and therefore there is a certain degree of uncertainty about the exact number. However, if we proceed methodically, we can try to converge towards a reasonable estimate.

[A]

He told me they look at a number of different sets of data. For instance, information from the UK's Electoral Commission, from the government's Work and Pensions Department, from the Census, and a number of other sources, including the consulate's own register of people who've been in touch to say they live here in the uk.

[G]

We reckon that the number must be roughly in the 270,000, that is 90% of the 300 or so thousand French people present in the UK.

[A]

And when you say London, what do you mean? Central London?

[G]

It would be The Greater London area, that is London itself, plus the sort of central southeastern quadrant of the uk, including Kent, Oxfordshire, maybe Sussex too.

[C]

So hang on a minute. This is a much bigger area than just the City of London. We're now talking about places like Oxford, a city in its own right, which is about 80 miles away from London, and Sussex, which is a county that stretches right down to the English Channel.

[A]

I spent quite a long time asking Xavier how the numbers reached. He was very patient. But we did keep going around in circles.

[C]

But it's not just about how many French people are in London. We also need to find out the size of French cities. And it turns out that's not very easy to define either. Here's Eric Albert. He's correspondent for the French newspaper Le Monde, and he's also been looking into this issue like for like.

[F]

Comparison is difficult because cities in Britain are a fairly wide administrative limit. Greater London is way bigger than Paris, so you have to compare the urban areas of France with British cities.

[C]

So, using the figures from the UK's Office of National Statistics, we've worked out London's real ranking, and on that basis, London ranks lower than 60th on the list.

[A]

Even if you use the figures the French Embassy gave us, London's still only the 23rd biggest French city, which doesn't make for a sexy headline.

[C]

No, not really. Although it was kind of fun to delve into the number of French people there are in the uk. There's also a political point here that France's taxes are too high, jobs are too limited, and opportunities for entrepreneurs are better elsewhere.

[A]

It's true that the unemployment rate is lower here in the UK than in France, but are taxes really lower? Eric Albert. Again, it's rubbish.

[F]

It's rubbish. Income tax is roughly the same in both countries. Actually, if you have children, you're better off in France because. Because the number of children you have is part of the calculation of your income tax in France. But there is an exception for the very, very rich people. So the famous none dumb. But frankly, if you want to move out of France because of tax, you're not coming to Britain. You're going to some other jurisdiction. It might be Switzerland. London would not be the place for tax evasion.

[A]

But there's one final thing here. People are leaving France and in greater numbers than ever before. In a recent article in the New York Times, it was argued that this number had risen 60% since 2000, another sign of France's decline.

[C]

But Liam Bugard, who runs a blog in France called Rude Baguette, which keeps an eye over French tech startup companies, says that this figure is meaningless without any context.

[H]

The most recent EU statistics put France at number five in Europe for percentage of citizens living outside of the country, with the UK actually in first. And so I think that puts in context a little more the whether France is an outlier or really just an example of the fact that Europe enables people to be mobile.

[A]

So London isn't France's sixth city and it possibly isn't even in the top 60. And perhaps rumors of France's decline are just a little bit exaggerated.

[C]

Thanks for listening. If there are any numbers you'd like us to investigate or explain, do please email us. Our address is more or [e-mail] and you can also sign up for a free download of this program at our website bbcworldservice.com More or less.

[A]

Goodbye, no Revoir or the World

[B]

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