Magic Numbers

Summary

Podcast Summary: More or Less – "Magic Numbers"

Date: April 19, 2014
Host: Ruth Alexander
Guest: Alex Bellos (author of Alex through the Looking Glass)

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Overview

In this episode of BBC Radio 4's More or Less, host Ruth Alexander puts aside statistical rigor to explore the emotional and cultural sides of numbers. Ruth is joined by Alex Bellos, who shares insights from his global survey on people's favorite numbers and discusses why certain numbers hold special significance, inspire love, or provoke fear. The conversation blends fun, psychology, cultural habits, and a touch of numerological superstition to paint a more human picture of mathematics.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Emotional Pull of Numbers

• Numbers and Feelings: Ruth introduces the episode as an exploration of our emotional relationship with numbers—inviting listeners to move beyond cold calculation to the realm of love, magic, fear, and death.
  • Quote (Ruth Alexander, 00:49): “This week, the program’s about love, magic, fear and death. We’re talking about how we feel about numbers and about maths.”

Discovering the World’s Favourite Number

• The Survey: Alex Bellos talks about setting up a website to find out people’s favorite numbers, receiving over 30,000 responses globally.
  • Quote (Ruth Alexander, 01:59): “Alex set up a website asking people to nominate their favorite number.”
• The Winner: The number seven emerged as the world’s favorite number, followed by three (02:11).
• Why Seven?
  • There’s a psychological tendency to pick 7 when asked for a “random” number between 1 and 10 because it feels mysterious and indivisible.
  • Magicians exploit this by asking people to think of a two-digit, odd number—most say 37.
    • Memorable Moment (Alex Bellos, 02:59): “And you are thinking of 37… Most people say 37.”
    • Quote (Alex Bellos, 03:06): “7 feels like it’s the most random because it’s the most indivisible. It’s the one that you can’t get your head around… the seven times table is the most difficult times table. And I think that the fact that some numbers are a bit more difficult arithmetically, it means they are kind of sticky, they’ve got more personality, they’re spikier… They’re just a bit more interesting.”
  • Alex reveals his shift in perspective:
    • Quote (Alex Bellos, 03:39): “If someone would have said, Alex, can any number be more interesting than another number? I’d say that’s kind of silly… But I think actually, thinking about it, some numbers are more interesting than others and numbers do have a personality and that we should kind of embrace this fun.”

The Cultural Magic of Three

• Significance of Three:
  • Number three is culturally significant, especially in the West because of the Holy Trinity in Christianity (04:20).
  • Odd numbers—including 3, 7, and 13—often have mystical and spiritual associations.
  • Japanese culture particularly favors odd numbers: formal meals (kaiseki) feature an odd number of dishes, and the 753 festival celebrates children aged 3, 5, and 7 (04:20).

Fear of Numbers and Superstition

• The Fear of Four in East Asia:

  • Four is considered unlucky in China, Japan, and Korea because its pronunciation is similar to “death.”
  • As a result, buildings may omit the fourth floor; airplanes may skip a fourth row; and a study showed that heart attack deaths among Chinese and Japanese Americans rise on the 4th of the month, likely due to this fear (05:52).
    • Quote (Alex Bellos, 05:52): “The reason why four is bad luck...is because four sounds like death.”
    • Quote (Alex Bellos, 06:18): “It turns that amongst Chinese and Japanese Americans, the number of them dying by heart attack rises on the 4th of each month, therefore showing that it’s a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.”
  • Host Reflection (Ruth Alexander, 06:42): “That really suggests, doesn’t it, that the fear of the number four, the cultural association is, you know, it’s, it really internalizes very strongly.”

• Odd Numbers as Mystical

  • The mystical allure of odd numbers is compared with their ubiquity in Western and Japanese culture.
  • Alex notes that even highly numerate societies (like those in East Asia) can be highly superstitious about numbers.

Numbers and Personal Connection

• Math Anxiety in the UK:

  • Discussed as a cultural issue, possibly contributing to lower numeracy compared to Asian countries.
  • Alex argues that having a favorite number or attributing personality to numbers is not anti-scientific; rather, it can make numbers more approachable and less intimidating (07:26).
    • Quote (Alex Bellos, 07:36): “So actually I would say that the fact that you might have a favorite number or think that a certain number has a personality doesn’t mean that you are anti science or not good at maths. It’s kind of completely different. And if anything, I would encourage people to treat numbers as their friends and to embrace all these things because it makes them less scary.”

• Personal Stories:

  • Ruth gently presses Alex on whether he, too, has his own “magic” number.
  • Alex shares that, although he claimed no favorite, his own birthdate (22/11) and time in numerology-loving Brazil made him appreciate these numerical quirks for personal—and even romantic—reasons (08:03).
    • Quote (Alex Bellos, 08:13): “I love that because you say to a girl in a bar, you’re from the 11th month, the 22nd day, and they kind of go crazy, as if you’re, you know, here’s Mr. Perfect, you’re Brad Pitt. Yeah. So I definitely have invested something in the importance of numbers for my own personal gain. Yes.”

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Alex Bellos on the universal appeal of numbers:
  • “Numbers do have a personality and that we should kind of embrace this fun.” (03:51)
• On odd and mystical numbers:
  • “One of the most mystical symbolic numbers in Western society, they are 3, 7 and 13. They’re the ones that always come up.” (04:28)
• On the fear of the number four:
  • “Amongst Chinese and Japanese Americans, the number of them dying by heart attack rises on the 4th of each month, therefore showing that it’s a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.” (06:18)
• On making math less scary:
  • “I would encourage people to treat numbers as their friends and to embrace all these things because it makes them less scary.” (07:44)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:49 – The episode’s theme: our feelings about numbers
• 01:04 – Introduction to Alex Bellos and his quest
• 01:59 – Results of global favorite number survey
• 02:11 – Seven is crowned the world’s favorite number
• 02:59 – Magician’s number trick (“think of a number”)
• 03:06 – 04:01 – Why seven, randomness, and the “personality” of numbers
• 04:10 – 04:20 – The magic and symbolism of three (Triads in culture and religion)
• 04:20 – 05:32 – Odd numbers and their cultural significance (Japan, West)
• 05:32 – 07:16 – Superstitions: Fear of four in East Asia; heart attack statistics
• 07:26 – 07:44 – Numbers as friends, not foes
• 08:03 – 08:44 – Alex admits his personal connection to numbers

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Conclusion

Magic Numbers delves into how numbers shape our lives, not just through calculation, but through emotion, culture, superstition, and personal stories. Alex Bellos demonstrates that numbers have personalities—and that embracing this “magic” can help make maths less intimidating and more friendly for everyone. The episode is playful, warm, and packed with quirky stories and cross-cultural observations, showing that numbers are far more than mere tools; they’re emotional touchstones across the globe.

Transcript

[Ruth Alexander]

This is the short edition of More or Less, first broadcast on the BBC World Service.

[BBC Announcer]

Thank you for downloading from the BBC. For details of our complete range of podcasts and our terms of use, go to bbcworldservice.com podcasts.

[Ruth Alexander]

Hello, and welcome to More or Less on the BBC World Service. Hi, I'm Ruth Alexander and this week we're putting down the sword of statistical rigour, taking off the armour of analytical certainty and getting in touch with our sensitive side.

[Narrator/Singer]

Three is a magic number. Yes, it is. It's a magic number.

[Ruth Alexander]

This week, the program's about love, magic, fear and death. We're talking about how we feel about numbers and about maths.

[Alex Bellos]

This is the love that dare not speak its name. People never talk about this sort of thing.

[Ruth Alexander]

Helping us open our hearts to numbers is Alex Bellos, whose new book, Alex through the Looking Glass, documents his quest to find the world's favourite number.

[Alex Bellos]

When I wrote my first book, people would come up to me, they would always say, so then, what's your favorite number? This wound me up because I just thought you. That is just saying that you don't take what I'm doing seriously.

[Ruth Alexander]

But what is your favorite number?

[Alex Bellos]

That things, I don't have a favorite number. So I just, I thought this was a silly thing to ask. And once I think I was at the end of my tether, it was probably a long day and I just said, well, I don't know, what's your favorite number? And they said, ooh, 12 or ooh, 13. And it was a talk. And I can remember, think, really? And I said, put up your hands in the audience if you have a favorite number. And it was over, half the people put their hands up. And so all of a sudden I thought, this is interesting. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12.

[Ruth Alexander]

Alex set up a website asking people to nominate their favorite number. He got more than 30,000 responses from around the world, tallied up the votes, and the winner is.

[Narrator/Singer]

7.

[Ruth Alexander]

The world's favourite number you've discovered in your big survey is the number seven. What do you think that is?

[Alex Bellos]

Well, there's a classic psychology experiment which is think of a number between 1 and 10 off the top of your head and people say 7. Actually, there's a famous trick used by magicians which is, you know, I'm gonna, gonna read your mind. I'm gonna think of a number, think of a number. It's Gonna be a two digit number, two digit number between 1 and 50. Both odd numbers. They're not Allowed to be the same. So you can't do 11, but 13 would be okay.

[Ruth Alexander]

All right, let's just take a moment and let's see if Alex can read your mind too. So think of a two digit number between 1 and 50. Both digits must be odd numbers and they're not allowed to be the same. Got it. Okay, back to Alex.

[Alex Bellos]

And you are thinking of 37. 37, yeah. Most people say 37.

[Narrator/Singer]

Oh my goodness.

[Alex Bellos]

Why that is because. Well, the psychology reasons are that certain numbers feel more random and more difficult. So if you were asked to say, think of a number randomly between 1 and 10 and you said one that doesn't feel very random, it's like the First 1 and 10 doesn't feel random. 7 feels like it's the most random because it's the most indivisible. It's the one that you can't get your head around. You know, the seven times table is the most difficult times table. And I think that the fact that some numbers are a bit more difficult arithmetically, it means they are kind of sticky, they've got more personality, they, they're spikier there. They're just a bit more interesting. At the beginning of this, if someone would have said, alex, can any number be more interesting than another number? I'd say that's kind of silly, that sort of hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo numerology. But I think actually thinking about it, some numbers are more interesting than others and numbers do have a personality and that we should kind of embrace this fun.

[Ruth Alexander]

So number seven was top of the list in at number two on the global list of our favorite numbers was number three.

[Narrator/Singer]

The past and the present and the future. Faith and hope and charity. The heart and the brain and the body. Give you three. As a magic number.

[Alex Bellos]

Three is culturally important because in the west anyway, we live in a Christian dominated culture and the three is the number of Christianity. It's the Holy Trinity. And isn't it interesting that the first two favorite numbers are both odd primes? In Western cultures, odd numbers are much more mystical and spiritual. One of the most mystical symbolic numbers in Western society, they are 3, 7 and 13. They're the ones that always come up. But the place that is most odd number centric is Japan. So in Japan you have kaiseki, which is the formal traditional Japanese cuisine. Always an odd number of dishes. When you have ikebana, which is Japanese flower arranging, always asymmetric. So odd numbers of flowers in the decorating. And the thing that I like the most is that when you celebrate children, celebrate the good health of children, you celebrate it at the 753 festival, which is only for children who are 3, 5 and 7.

[Ruth Alexander]

There's no doubt that we have some very powerful connection with numbers. Not just using them to calculate, but there's some sort of pull they have. But also a lot of people feel a real fear of numbers. In China, for example, the number four is a very worrying number. Yeah.

[Alex Bellos]

So the reason why four is bad luck, it's the unlucky number, not just in China, but in Japan and Korea, in East Asia, is because four sounds like death. So you just don't want to say four because it sounds like you're being morbid. And it is the case that certain hotels don't have a fourth floor, just the way that certain hotels in the west don't have floor 13. Sometimes planes don't have a fourth row. In the US where they have very good demographic statistics, it turns that amongst Chinese and Japanese Americans, the number of them dying by heart attack rises on the 4th of each month, therefore showing that it's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. Everyone is so scared on the 4th that people are more likely to have heart attacks.

[Ruth Alexander]

That really suggests, doesn't it, that the fear of the number four, the cultural association is, you know, it's, it really internalizes very strongly.

[Alex Bellos]

How ironic is that that you'd have thought, oh my God, there, that's crazy because obviously four is no different than five and six, but they're internalizing this fear yet again. They have these amazing numeracy. So I, I think that in the UK a big issue is mass education. And this idea that the UK is slightly behind, or maybe a long way behind the Asian nations in terms of teaching numeracy and, you know, basic arithmetic. But also what I was discovering is that the Asian nations are a lot more kind of superstitious and have a lot more fun in games and play with numbers and think numbers have personality and the numbers are spiritual, this, that and the other. So actually I would say that the fact that you might have a favorite number or think that a certain number has a personality doesn't mean that you are anti science or not good at maths. It's kind of completely different. And if anything, I would encourage people to treat numbers as their friends and to embrace all these things because it makes them less scary.

[Narrator/Singer]

1, 2, 3, 4. Tell me that you love me more Sleepless.

[Ruth Alexander]

So, Alex, you say you have no favourite number, but you've just been fascinated to hear about everybody else's. But do you really have no sense of personal connection with any number out there?

[Alex Bellos]

Maybe I was being disingenuous when I say I didn't have a favourite number, because, I mean, there's no one single number that I think, well, that's my guy. But I was born on. On the 22nd of the 11th. You double the month and you get the day. And I lived in Brazil for five years. And in Brazil, people are quite numerological and they love astrology and things like that. And people, you know, they want to know your birth date to sort of do the numbers on them. And I love that because you say to a girl in a bar, you're from the 11th month, the 22nd day, and they kind of go crazy, as if you're, you know, here's Mr. Perfect, you're Brad Pitt. Yeah. So I definitely have invested something in the importance of numbers for my own personal gain. Yes.

[Ruth Alexander]

Alex Bellos impressing the ladies with his vital statistics. Watch out, Brazil. If you'd like to tell us about your favourite number, do get in touch via More or [e-mail] and if you want to download other editions of this program, you can find [e-mail] more or less.

[BBC Announcer]

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