Where are the world hardest workers? (WS)

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: More or Less
Host: Tim Harford (BBC Radio 4)
Episode: Where are the world's hardest workers? (WS)
Date: May 21, 2012

This episode dives into international comparisons of working hours, exploring which countries put in the greatest number of hours at work, the complex interplay between working hours and productivity, and the myths and realities behind such statistics. The episode also revisits the "Greek taxi controversy," examining whether it's truly cheaper to transport Greek rail passengers by taxi.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Works the Longest Hours?

• Asian Countries Lead in Hours Worked

  • John Messenger (International Labor Organization):
    "Asian countries tend to work the longest hours on an annual basis... Korea particularly sticks out because it's a developed country that's working long hours. Normally, it's developing countries like Bangladesh, Malaysia, Thailand, Sri Lanka..." ([00:44])
  • Noted distinction between developed and developing countries, highlighting South Korea's exceptional long working hours even as a developed nation.

• South Korea's Work Patterns

  • Tim Harford:
    "Korea, as I understand it, nearly 2,200 hours a year. What's going into that data...?" ([01:16])
  • Messenger explains: The figures represent "the average annual hours actually being worked during a year for every person in employment." ([01:24])
  • Mention of government initiatives to reduce working hours and increase employment opportunities by cutting excessive overtime ([01:24]–[02:15]).

2. Long Hours vs. Productivity

• Inefficiency of Excessive Hours

  • Harford: "Is there a relationship between long working hours and high labor productivity per hour or low labor productivity per hour?" ([02:15])
  • Messenger:
    "Generally speaking, long working hours are associated with lower labor productivity per hour... In developing countries, workers [work] very long hours in order to achieve some minimum level of output...because frankly, they're not very productive." ([02:26])
  • Key insight: The causation likely runs both ways—low productivity drives long hours, but long hours may also further depress productivity.

• Historical Reduction in Hours

  • Messenger:
    "Over the last century in most developed countries, you've seen a reduction from very long working hours, nearly 3000 hours per year at the beginning of the 1900s to by the turn of the 21st century, most developed countries were under 1800 hours." ([02:59])

3. Pitfalls of Averages—The Case of Japan

• Averages Hide Important Variation
  • Messenger:
    "Japan is certainly one [example]... you have really large proportions of men who are working excessively long hours, whereas you also have substantial proportions of women who are working short hours, or part time... Average working hours can be very, very deceptive." ([03:37])

4. The Developed World: U.S. vs. Europe

• Comparing Work Hours
  • Harford: "I'm imagining the US people working longer hours than in Europe because that's the myth. But is that actually reality?" ([04:07])
  • Messenger:
    "To some degree, yes. To some degree, no. ... The US actually is the only developed country which has no legal or contractual or collective requirement to provide any minimum amount of paid annual leave... In the UK... you have to provide at least four weeks. So right off the top you have a two week difference..." ([04:27]–[05:34])
  • Key point: U.S. workers appear to work more partly because of less paid vacation, not necessarily because their weekly hours are much greater.

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The Great Greek Taxi Controversy (Revisited)

5. Re-examining the Claim

• Listener Suggestions for Alternate Cost Calculations

  • Wesley Stevenson revisits the claim that it is cheaper to send Greek train passengers by taxi, prompted by suggestions from listeners:
    "What if four people shared a taxi? Would the journey be cheaper if the taxi driver had a full fare on the return journey? What about the ticket price? What if the passenger still paid the same fare to the government whether they travelled by train or by taxi?" ([06:09])

• Calculating the Real Taxi Costs

  • Based on prior episode:
    "Each kilometre traveled by each passenger on the Greek railways cost around 75 US cents in subsidies and a taxi costs around $1.55 per kilometre. But based on one traveller in each cab." ([06:27])
  • New quote from local Greek cab driver Greg:
    • Four passengers, Thessaloniki to Athens: flat rate of €700 ([07:06]–[07:13])
    • Full cab both ways: €800 total ([07:17]–[07:24])

• Revised Per Person Calculations

  • Stevenson:
    • "If we put four people in each cab, the taxi costs 37 US cents per passenger kilometre."
    • "With a full cab on the return journey... it would cost around 23 US cents per passenger kilometre." ([07:33]–[07:45])
    • "If the passenger still pays the same price to the government for the journey that the passenger would pay on the train... this would bring down the cost of each passenger kilometre in a taxi to 16 cents and vastly cheaper than the subsidised trains, which are 75 cents." ([07:48]–[07:56])

• Conclusion on the Original Claim

  • Harford: "It suggests there's a way of looking at things which makes [the former Greek finance minister Stephanos Manos] right. Although ... I'm not sure [people] envisaged this incredibly complicated taxi share arrangement. Most people imagine one taxi per person." ([08:23])
  • Acknowledges creative listener input for challenging the initial assumption.

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Notable Quotes

• John Messenger (International Labor Organization):

  • "Asian countries tend to work the longest hours on an annual basis." ([00:44])
  • "Long working hours are associated with lower labor productivity per hour." ([02:26])
  • "Average working hours can be very, very deceptive." ([03:37])
  • "The US is the only developed country which has no legal... requirement to provide any minimum amount of paid annual leave." ([04:27])

• Tim Harford:

  • "... it's not so much that if you work long hours you're unproductive, it's more that if you're unproductive, then you have to work long hours." ([02:50])
  • "I'm not sure [people] envisaged this incredibly complicated taxi share arrangement." ([08:23])

• Wesley Stevenson:

  • "Each kilometre traveled by each passenger on the Greek railways cost around 75 US cents in subsidies and a taxi costs around $1.55 per kilometre. But based on one traveller in each cab." ([06:27])
  • "If we put four people in each cab, the taxi costs 37 US cents per passenger kilometre." ([07:33])
  • "With a full cab on the return journey... it would cost around 23 US cents per passenger kilometre." ([07:45])
  • "This would bring down the cost of each passenger kilometre in a taxi to 16 cents and vastly cheaper than the subsidised trains, which are 75 cents." ([07:56])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Where in the World Do People Work the Longest Hours?
  [00:00] – [02:15]

• Productivity and Its Relationship to Working Hours
  [02:15] – [03:22]

• The Problem with Averages & Gender Differences (Japan Focus)
  [03:22] – [04:07]

• Developed World Comparison: U.S. vs UK & Europe
  [04:07] – [05:34]

• Greek Taxi Controversy – Listener Suggestions & In-Depth Calculations
  [06:09] – [08:23]

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Memorable Moments

• Insightful Breakdown of Why Korean Working Hours Remain High Despite Development
  (Messenger, [01:24]–[02:15])

• Sharp Listener Engagement with the Greek Taxi Calculation
  (Stevenson, [06:09]–[08:23])

• Clarity on How Vacation Distorts International Working Hours Stats
  (Messenger, [04:27]–[05:34])

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Conclusions

This episode reinforces the complexity behind international comparisons of working hours and debunks simplistic conclusions about "hardest working" nations. It highlights the consequences of long work hours for productivity, the necessity of probing beneath averages, and the legal-cultural differences between countries (such as paid vacation). Listener input provides a fresh, practical twist on economic claims—particularly in the case of the Greek railways—and showcases the rigor required to truly understand the numbers.

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Transcript

[A]

This is more or less your statistical guide to life, the universe, and everything. This week, we'll ask where in the world people work the longest hours. And we'll revisit the great Greek taxi controversy. Hello and welcome to More or Less on the BBC World Service. Earlier in the year, we looked at who worked harder, the Greeks or the Germans, and found to the surprise of most, that on all measures, the Greeks did far more hours than the Germans did. But as we discovered, Germany produces far more per hour and can be said to be more efficient. But this got us thinking about what the international comparisons were and who works the longest hours in the world. We decided to contact John messenger, an expert in working hours from the International Labor Organization, to find out.

[B]

Well, it's tough to name one particular country, but what you'll find in general is that Asian countries tend to work the longest hours on an annual basis. They also tend to have the highest proportions of workers who. Who are working what we would say are excessively long hours of more than 48 hours per week. Korea particularly sticks out because it's a developed country that's working long hours. Normally, it's developing countries like Bangladesh, like Malaysia, Thailand, Sri Lanka, countries like this that are working very long hours.

[A]

Now, Korea, as I understand it, nearly 2,200 hours a year. What's going into that data, what's being

[B]

measured is the average annual hours actually being worked during a year for every person in employment. And the situation is really one in which you had a country that was developing, working very hard to raise its standard of living, has reached now the status of being a developed country, and yet has developed this pattern of long hours working, which is, in fact becoming counterproductive not only in terms of their ability to continue to advance the people who are working very long hours who are in the workforce. Actually, it's viewed as preventing others from having an opportunity to enter the workforce if the hours were shorter. So the Korean government has actually undertaken a number of initiatives, including reducing the standard work week, but also specifically requesting that companies cut working hours in order to try to increase employment in that country.

[A]

There's this suggestion then, that it's counterproductive. I mean, do we actually know whether there is a relationship between long working hours and high labor productivity per hour or low labor productivity per hour?

[B]

Yes, we do. And generally speaking, long working hours are associated with lower labor productivity per hour. In many cases. What you're seeing in developing countries, and it's mainly a developing country phenomenon, is workers working very long hours in order to achieve some minimum level of output and also to earn some minimum amount of wages, because frankly, they're not very productive.

[A]

So it's not so much that if you work long hours you're unproductive, it's more that if you're unproductive, then you have to work long hours. Or do you think the causation runs both ways?

[B]

What you've seen in terms of historical patterns, for example, over the last century in most developed countries, you've seen a reduction from very long working hours, nearly 3000 hours per year at the beginning of the 1900s to by the turn of the 21st century, most developed countries were under 1800 hours. And indeed some of the most productive countries were even lower than that.

[A]

We're looking at averages here, and the average working week might be hiding all kinds of interesting variations. Is there a country or an example where you feel actually you can look at the averages, but it's really not telling the whole story about what's going on on the ground.

[B]

There's a number of countries that really fit that category. Japan is certainly one. The working hours are relatively long in Japan on an annual basis, but they have been declining over time. And one of the reasons why it's a bit deceptive is because you have really large proportions of men who are working excessively long hours, whereas you also have substantial proportions of women who are working short hours, or part time, as we often call it. So average working hours can be very, very deceptive.

[A]

Now, we've already established long average hours in Asia, a tendency for people to work longer in developing countries. What about among developed countries, who's working hardest? I'm imagining the US people working longer hours than in Europe because that's the myth. But is that actually reality?

[B]

To some degree, yes. To some degree, no. And this is where you really have to dig underneath the overall figures. Now, the US is a particularly interesting comparison because if you would look, for example, at the differences in working hours on an annual basis, say the US and some of the mid range European countries, and I'll pick the UK, you would see that there's about 150 hours or so a year difference between the UK and the US on an annual basis. But if you looked at weekly hours, it wouldn't be so dramatic. The difference there really is driven by the fact that the US actually is the only developed country which has no legal or contractual or collective requirement to provide any minimum amount of paid annual leave, that is no paid vacations. Now, most companies do provide them, but they're very, very Short two weeks. And in the uk, in line with the European Working Time Directive, you have to provide at least four weeks. So right off the top you have a two week difference just due to difference in paid annual leave or paid vacations.

[A]

John messenger from the International Labor Organization. Now, Wesley Stevenson, quite a number of people have been in touch about your piece last week when you looked at the claim made by the former Greek finance minister Stephanos Manos that it would be cheaper to send Greek rail passengers by taxes. Yes. Now quite a few listeners think there are other ways of looking at it. What if four people shared a taxi? Would the journey be cheaper if the taxi driver had a full fare on the return journey? What about the ticket price? What if the passenger still paid the same fare to the government whether they travelled by train or by taxi? What do you think?

[C]

Yeah, they're all good questions. You may remember when we calculated this last week, we said that each kilometre traveled by each passenger on the Greek railways cost around 75 US cents in subsidies and a taxi costs around $1.55 per kilometre. But based on one traveller in each cab.

[A]

So what if we used the listener suggestions?

[C]

Well, I decided we needed a new quote. So I called our friendly Greek cab driver, Greg, Mr. Taxi in Thessaloniki, to get another quote.

[A]

Hello?

[C]

Oh hello, is that Greg?

[A]

Yes, Greg speaking.

[C]

Hi there Greg. It's Wesley here from the BBC in London. How are you? I've got another quote for you if that's. If that's possible. Last time you said it would be €700 to travel from Thessaloniki to Athens. What would happen if we had four passengers?

[B]

The cab can accommodate up to four passengers.

[C]

So you can get four passengers in your cab. And would the price be the same?

[A]

Yes, that would be €700 from Thessaloniki to Athens.

[C]

And what if we were to have a return journey in there? How much would it be then if the cab was full both ways?

[A]

Well, if you go directly to Athens and. But that would be €800.

[C]

That's great, Greg. Thank you very much for your help with that. That's brilliant. Thank you.

[A]

You're welcome, Wesley. So if we put four people in each cab, the taxi costs 37 US cents per passenger kilometre. And what if we then take into account the discount for Greg having a full cab on the return journey?

[C]

Well, then it would cost around 23 US cents per passenger kilometre.

[A]

And if we then assume the passenger still pays the same price to the government for the journey that the passenger would pay on the train, what difference does that make?

[C]

Well, the government could Then put this towards the taxi fare. So the Passenger pays around 8 cents per K for the train. If they were then to put that towards the taxi fare, this would bring down the cost of each passenger kilometre in a taxi to 16 cents and vastly cheaper than the subsidised trains, which are 75 cents. That's right. So using the listener's suggestions, this would mean that the former Greek finance minister who originally put this idea forward, Stephanos Manos, was right?

[A]

Well, possibly. I mean, it suggests there's a way of looking at things which makes him right. Although I think when people heard him saying it would be cheaper to put the passengers in taxis rather than on the railways, I'm not sure they envisaged this incredibly complicated taxi share arrangement. Most people imagine one taxi per person. Nevertheless, we are very grateful to our loyal listeners for all of their suggestions about how to approach this problem and very grateful to you. Thank you, Wes. If you see a fact you'd like us to check out, or a fascinating statistical odyssey on which you'd like us to embark, drop us an email at more or lessbc code. Our website is bbcworldservice.com more or less the place to subscribe to our podcast. Or you could simply tune in same stat time, same stat channel next week. Goodbye. More or Less was presented by me, Tim Harford, the undercover economist at the Financial Times. The producer was Richard Knight and the editor, Richard Varden.