WS MoreOrLess: Maths and Chess

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Maths and Chess" – More or Less (BBC Radio 4)

Date: April 3, 2015
Host: Tim Harford
Guest: Dr. John Nunn (Maths professor turned professional chess player, former World Top 10)

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Episode Overview

This episode sets out to investigate the relationship between mathematics and chess, sparked by host Tim Harford's curiosity and a live chess match with renowned grandmaster Dr. John Nunn. They explore whether excelling at math provides an edge in chess, how modern technology has transformed the game, and what truly makes a chess champion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Maths and Chess: Are They Linked?

• Harford opens by wondering if mathematical skills help with chess (00:19–01:29).
• John Nunn: “I don’t think you can. ... There’s a slight connection between maths and chess in that they both appeal to the same sort of person, people who have a problem-solving mentality. But between maths and chess themselves, purely as subjects, I don’t think that there’s a close connection, and I don’t think that studying one is necessarily going to help you perform better than the other.” (01:29)
• Nunn emphasizes individual appeal rather than direct subject linkage.

2. Chess as an Educational Tool

• Nunn points out that chess, especially for schoolchildren, teaches valuable life lessons: “Not to make hasty decisions, not to be impulsive, and to think about the consequences of things that you’re going to do.” (02:14)
• However, no “specific connection” to mathematics is claimed.

3. Why Child Prodigies Emerge in Certain Disciplines

• Harford notes the prevalence of prodigies in fields like music, maths, and chess (02:34).
• Nunn’s analysis: “...these subjects are self-contained. They don’t connect with other parts of the real world.... in mathematics and chess you’ve got subjects which have their own internal rules.... you can become an expert... without having this experience of life that becoming an expert in other disciplines requires.” (02:41)

4. Magnus Carlsen's Playful Critique

• Tim Harford recalls Carlsen’s quip in Der Spiegel: “I am convinced that the reason the Englishman John Nunn never became world champion is that he’s too clever for that.” (03:21)
• Nunn’s response: He believes Carlsen meant he “was interested in too many different things” and didn’t focus enough on chess alone, though Nunn reminds listeners he was at one stage ninth in the world (03:40).

5. How Computers Have Changed Chess

• Nunn’s insight: “Computers have had a huge impact on the game, particularly at the highest level. ... Even the software that runs on phones is now stronger than the human world champion.” (04:19)
• Top players use computers extensively for move analysis and preparation.
• Fun fact: “Magnus Carlsen... told me that he doesn’t actually have a chess set at home. He does everything on the computer screen all alone.” (04:57)
• Computers create new benefits for the chess public—online broadcasts and expert “commentary” from analysis engines (05:54–06:28).
• Downsides include the increased possibility of cheating via hidden pocket devices (05:29, 05:54).

6. The Role of Psychology in Chess

• Turning to Emanuel Lasker, the former German world champion and mathematician:
  • Nunn: “Lasker’s main strength... was his excellent psychology. He knew precisely which moves would discomfort his opponent... would cause situations to arise... in which his opponents were likely to make a mistake.” (06:47)
• Even when two moves are objectively equal by computer evaluation, Lasker would pick the one likeliest to provoke errors (07:23).
• “So this is more a case of psychology, then, than mathematics?” – Tim Harford
• Nunn: “It is. ... He had a very deep understanding of chess, and particularly he had the ability to create deceptive positions on the chessboard...” (07:47)

7. A Humbling Game for the Host (and a Lesson in Respect)

• Harford concedes as his position collapses:
  “There’s a moment at which respect for my opponent would indicate that I should resign and possibly that moment should have been before I moved the first pawn.” (08:36–08:49)
• Nunn accepts graciously: “Thank you for the game.” (08:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the true link between maths and chess:
  “...good mathematicians are the kind of people who might like to play chess, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that the maths will help you on the chessboard.” — Tim Harford (01:50)

• On computers surpassing humans:
  “Even the software that runs on phones is now stronger than the human world champion.” — John Nunn (04:41)

• On psychology’s power:
  “He [Lasker] knew how to induce mistakes.” — John Nunn (06:47)
  “The two moves might objectively be of the same strength... but one might be much more likely to cause an error by the opponent, and he would always go for that possibility.” — John Nunn (07:28)

• Host’s self-deprecating humor:
  “There’s a moment at which respect for my opponent would indicate that I should resign and possibly that moment should have been before I moved the first pawn.” — Tim Harford (08:36)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Introduction & Nunn’s background: 00:19–00:51
• Questioning the maths/chess link: 01:19–01:50
• Chess as an educational tool: 02:14–02:34
• Why chess produces prodigies: 02:34–03:21
• Magnus Carlsen’s quote & explanation: 03:21–04:00
• Computers in chess, pros and cons: 04:00–06:28
• Lasker’s legacy and the primacy of psychology: 06:28–08:10
• Harford’s resignation and wrap-up: 08:36–08:52

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Overall Tone

Witty, humble, and conversational, with Tim Harford openly acknowledging his chess inferiority and Dr. John Nunn offering clear, measured explanations backed by experience from both mathematical and chess perspectives.

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This episode reveals that while maths and chess attract similar personalities, the true keys to chess mastery lie in self-contained systems thinking, psychological insight, and—now more than ever—embracing the power and perils of computers.

Transcript

[John Nunn]

This is the short edition of More

[Tim Harford]

or Less, first broadcast on the BBC World Service.

[BBC Announcer]

Thank you for downloading from the BBC. For details of our complete range of podcasts and our terms of use, go to bbcworldservice.com podcasts

[Tim Harford]

hello, and welcome to More or Less on the BBC World Service. I'm Tim Harford. This week, I pit my wits against a maths professor turned professional chess player, Chef John Nunn. Now, this was probably my first mistake. John Nunn went up to Oxford at the age of just 15 to read maths. He became a maths professor, and then in the early 1980s, he gave it all up to pursue a career in chess. At the highest point in that career, John ranked a cool ninth in the world.

He's quite good.

John has written numerous books on chess strategy and his latest. But John Nunn's chess course explains how the German chess world champion and mathematician Emanuel Lasker used logic to defeat his opponents in the early 20th century. Chess and mathematics. That suggested to me that perhaps the two of them are linked. Well, perhaps that was my second mistake and not my last.

Is it my move?

[John Nunn]

Yes. I sneakily moved a pawn.

[Tim Harford]

Yeah, no, it's okay. It's okay. So maths and chess, is there a link? Can you use maths to win on the chessboard?

[John Nunn]

I don't think you can. I think there is a slight connection between maths and chess in that they both appeal to the same sort of person, people who have a problem solving mentality. But between maths and chess themselves, purely as subjects, I don't think that there's a close connection, and I don't think that studying one is necessarily going to help you perform better than the other.

[Tim Harford]

Well, I know what that move is. That's a fiance fianchetto. Fianchetto. Okay, well, I've just lost all my credibility there. The. Oh, gosh, okay, I'm on a castle. So it's a case of correlation, then, not causation. So good mathematicians are the kind of people who might like to play chess, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the maths will help you on the chessboard.

[John Nunn]

I think that chess is something that's worth studying for its own sake, particularly for school kids. You learn all kinds of things playing chess. Not to make hasty decisions, not to be impulsive, and to think about the consequences of things that you're going to do. But I don't think there's a specific connection with mathematics.

[Tim Harford]

There are certain disciplines that seem to breed child prodigies. We see it in Music. We see it in maths, we see it in chess.

Why is that?

[John Nunn]

I think it's because these subjects are self contained. They don't connect with other parts of the real world. So, for example, you wouldn't expect to get a great child novelist, because to create believable and interesting characters in a novel requires an understanding of people and knowledge of how the world operates. Whereas in mathematics and chess you've got subjects which have their own internal rules, which don't relate to rules in other parts of knowledge. So because of their self contained formal systems, and therefore you can become an expert in them without having this experience of life that becoming an expert in other disciplines requires.

[Tim Harford]

Now I have to confront you with this interview from five years ago with the world champion Magnus Carlsen. He told Der Spiegel, the German news magazine, I am convinced that the reason the Englishman John Nunn never became world champion is that he's too clever for that. What did he mean?

[John Nunn]

I think what he meant. And a bit later in the interview he did explain it. I think he said that I was interested in too many different things and didn't focus sufficiently on chess in order to reach what he apparently perceives to be my maximum potential. Although I should say that I was at one stage in the world top 10, which isn't that bad.

[Tim Harford]

You have the first capture. Okay, so you've taken my knight. I'm gonna take your bishop back. Do you think that the situation has changed, though, because computers have changed everything and computers must have changed the relationship between human analysis and chess mastery?

[John Nunn]

I think computers have had a huge impact on the game, particularly at the highest level. Decades ago, when I was at my peak, computers were laughably weak and they were of no assistance whatsoever in analyzing openings or checking on your moves. But that's completely changed now. Even the software that runs on phones is now stronger than the human world champion. So you've got an oracle there that can tell you whether a particular move is good or bad. Not in every single case, but in the vast majority of cases. So that all the top players work extensively with computers and check all the moves they're intending to play with the computer to see if there's some kind of refutation of them. In fact, Magnus Carlsen, the current world champion, told me that he doesn't actually have a chess set at home. He does everything on the computer screen all alone.

[Tim Harford]

So if I had one of these oracles in my pocket, would it tell me it was my move?

[John Nunn]

It would.

[Tim Harford]

Oh, okay, right. Oh, it's so Hard playing chess and doing a radio interview at the same time.

I don't have a plan.

This is the issue. Do you think the computers have spoiled things a bit?

[John Nunn]

They've changed things enormously, but spoilt that, I wouldn't really say. Certainly, the chess world is completely different now because of computers, and one really negative consequence has been the possibility of cheating in chess. People can go into the bathroom and analyse their position on their pocket phone.

[Tim Harford]

So I just spotted what you're up to. Oh, this isn't good. Okay.

[John Nunn]

So, you know, steps have to be taken to try to prevent that kind of thing, but otherwise it's just a change. And in a way, it helps because, for example, people can watch games on the Internet now from tournaments all over the world, live, and with the computer backing them up, they can have an evaluation of the position so they know what's going on. It's like having a continuous commentary, expert commentary on the game. So from the point of view of chess publicity and the general chess public, computers have in fact, helped quite a lot.

[Tim Harford]

Yeah, I could see that coming, but I couldn't do anything about it. This isn't good. This isn't good. That's obviously my problem. The computers didn't come along early enough to help my game. What then about Lasker? Have I just got the wrong end of the stick that he used his logic to figure out chess positions, or were things different back then?

[John Nunn]

Things were different back then, but it was the same game, it was the same chess that we play today. I think Laska's main strength, and what distinguished him from the other players of his generation, was his excellent psychology. He knew precisely which moves would discomfort his opponent, and without taking excessive risks, he would cause situations to arise on the board in which his opponents were likely to make a mistake. This doesn't necessarily mean that he was making deliberately bad moves, but he knew how to induce mistakes.

[Tim Harford]

Out of two good moves, he could pick the one that would cause the most trouble.

[John Nunn]

Yes. The two moves might objectively be of the same strength, and if you put them on the computer, they would give the same evaluation, but one might be much more likely to cause an error by the opponent, and he would always go for that possibility.

[Tim Harford]

So this is more a case of psychology, then, than mathematics?

[John Nunn]

It is. I don't think, although he was a good mathematician, I don't think that that helped him so much in becoming world champion. I think it was his understanding. He had a very deep understanding of chess, and particularly he had the ability to create deceptive positions on the chessboard. Ones in which, for example, his opponent looked as if he had the advantage, but in fact, he didn't.

[Tim Harford]

Yeah, I mean, in this one, for example, this looks like I'm only a pawn behind, but I'm guessing that actually the situation is rather more alarming than that.

[John Nunn]

Yes, that's correct.

[Tim Harford]

Oh, I moved it away from there. Right, I'm gonna count the pieces here. So I'm now a rook and a pawn down.

[John Nunn]

Sad but true.

[Tim Harford]

Yeah. There's a moment at which respect for my opponent would indicate that I should resign and possibly that moment should have been before I moved the first pawn. I am actually going to concede at this point.

[John Nunn]

Thank you for the game.

[Tim Harford]

Thank you very much, John.

John Nunn, maths professor turned chess champ. It was an honour to lose to him and a bit of a blur. If there are any subjects you'd like us to look into, please email us. Our address is more or [e-mail] and you can download this program and many other editions at our website, BBC.commoreorless

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