WS MoreOrLess: To ice or not to ice?

Summary

Podcast Summary: More or Less – “To ice or not to ice?” (September 8, 2014, BBC Radio 4)

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Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by Tim Harford, tackles the phenomenon of the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge, analyzing its charitable impact and exploring whether viral trends lead to optimal philanthropic outcomes. The discussion includes interviews with charity experts and evaluates the concept of "effective altruism"—the drive to maximize positive impact with charitable giving. The tone is playful yet inquisitive, with Harford and his guests using humor and critical reasoning to explore whether charity fads are the best way to do good.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ice Bucket Challenge: What Is It and Whom Does it Help?

• [00:19–01:42]

  • The Ice Bucket Challenge is a viral phenomenon where participants dump ice water on themselves, donate to ALS/Motor Neurone Disease (MND) charities, and nominate others.
  • Notably supported by celebrities like Benedict Cumberbatch, Oprah Winfrey, and George W. Bush.
  • Raised $100 million for the ALS Association in a single August, “more than 30 times what it raised in the same period last year.”

  Quote:

  “The ALS association raised $100 million this August, which is more than 30 times what it raised in the same period last year.”
  —Keith [01:20]

2. What Does the Motor Neurone Disease Association Do?

• [01:52–02:43]

  • Douglas Graham describes MND as a fatal, rapidly progressive disease attacking motor neurons, leaving victims unable to move, talk, eat, or breathe.
  • Donations fund:
    • Research into the causes and potential cures
    • Care and support for patients and families
    • Awareness initiatives

  Quote:

  “Motor Neurone disease is a fatal and rapidly progressive disease which attacks the motor neurons... It leaves people trapped in a failing body...”
  —Douglas Graham [01:52]

3. Is Viral Charity the Best Charity? (The Economics and Ethics of Giving)

• [02:43–05:54]

  • Neil Bowerman (Centre for Effective Altruism) notes that viral trends decide which causes get a windfall, not inherently which causes are most deserving.
  • Concerns raised over “charity cannibalisation”—the idea that donors simply reallocate, not increase, total giving.
  • Professor Stephen Lee sees little evidence for such cannibalisation, except after massive campaigns.
  • Bowerman uses the ALS vs. malaria argument:
    • Malaria nets save healthy years of life at £10–£100 per year
    • Treating ALS costs about $200,000 per year per patient—much less cost-effective

  Quotes:

  "The viral nature of the Ice Bucket Challenge is genius... however, there are some risks... I don't think viral memes should be what determine our charitable spending. I think it should be which charities have the most impact."
  —Neil Bowerman [03:02]

  “For that amount of money, you could be helping hundreds, thousands of times more sufferers of diseases that are cheaper to cure."
  —Neil Bowerman [04:31]

4. Effective Altruism: Giving for Impact, Not Just Emotion

• [05:07–05:54]

  • Donors are often motivated by emotion, personal connection, or social pressure—not always impact.
  • Identifying cost-effective charities takes data, analysis, and comparison—not just touching videos.

  Quote:

  “Identifying which of them is going to do the most with your funds is not a case of looking at nice videos and nice pictures… it’s actually a case of going down into the data and looking at which of these is actually going to provide the most bang for your buck.”
  —Neil Bowerman [05:17]

5. GiveWell’s Approach: Who Should Get Your Donation?

• [05:54–08:05]

  • Eli Hassenfeld (GiveWell) explains their process:
    • Rely on independent academic evidence
    • Prioritize cost-effective, transparent programs focusing on the world’s poorest areas
    • Recommend charities with a pressing need for funds
  • Three currently top-rated charities:
    • GiveDirectly (direct cash transfers to poor in East Africa)
    • Schistosomiasis Control Initiative (SCI) and Deworm the World Initiative (focus on treating parasitic worm infections in children for $0.50–$1 per child)

  Quote:

  “We’re looking for organizations that are transparent...working in the poorest parts of the world... that have a pressing need for additional funding.”
  —Eli Hassenfeld [06:12]

  "For a very small amount of money, about 50 cents to a dollar per person, can treat young children... and has the potential to affect their cognitive development long term."
  —Eli Hassenfeld [07:33]

6. Tim’s Decision: Giving, Feeling, and Reasoning

• [08:05–08:55]

  • Torn between sentimental and rational giving, Harford decides:
    • £5 to Motor Neurone Disease Association (“simply because it feels bad not to do that”)
    • £100 to SCI (Schistosomiasis Control Initiative) in line with evidence for maximum impact
  • Nominates economists Evan Davis, Stephanie Flanders, and Tyler Cowan to do the same—“being guided by economic logic.”

  Notable Moment:

  “I think I've got to donate £5 to Motor Neurone Disease Association simply because it feels bad not to do that. But as an economist... I've got to donate my full hundred pounds to diseases of poor children in Sub Saharan Africa. And so I'm going to donate my hundred pounds to the Schistosomiasis Control Initiative.”
  —Tim Harford [08:08]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Keith: "That's because you don't have any friends, Tim." [00:42] (playful banter)
• Tim Harford: "A true nerd doesn't run with the herd. I always look at the evidence first." [01:42]
• Tim Harford: "It somehow sounds very cold and uncaring." [05:07]
• Keith: "Okay, Tim, so you've heard all the evidence. What are you going to do?" [08:05]
• Tim Harford: "Bring it on, Ben. Okay, that's cold. I'm going to get dry. And a video of my ice bucketing is online now." [09:01] (closing with humor and a hint that Harford participated after all)

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Timestamps: Important Segments

• 00:19: Ice Bucket Challenge introduction & joke about Tim's friends
• 01:20: Ice Bucket Challenge impact stats (Keith)
• 01:52: Motor Neurone Disease description (Douglas Graham)
• 02:18: How donations are used (Douglas Graham)
• 03:02: The case against viral charity memes (Neil Bowerman)
• 04:31: Cost-effectiveness of different health charities (Neil Bowerman)
• 05:17: Emotion vs. impact in giving (Neil Bowerman)
• 06:12: How GiveWell evaluates charities (Eli Hassenfeld)
• 07:13: Top three recommended charities and deworming explained (Eli Hassenfeld)
• 08:08: Tim's donation decisions and challenge nominations

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Conclusion

This episode of "More or Less" uses the lens of the Ice Bucket Challenge to interrogate how—and why—people give to charity. Featuring voices from the Motor Neurone Disease Association, effective altruism advocates, and charity evaluators, the show emphasizes that while viral campaigns can raise vast sums for worthy causes, donors interested in maximizing global impact might want to look beyond the meme to the math. Tim Harford ultimately sets an example by participating in the challenge, but channels his main donation to the most cost-effective intervention identified by experts.

Transcript

[Tim Harford]

This is the short edition of More

[Keith]

or Less, first broadcast on the BBC World Service.

[Douglas Graham]

Thank you for downloading from the BBC. For details of our complete range of podcasts and our terms of use, go to bbcworldservice.com podcasts

[Tim Harford]

hello, and welcome to More or Less on the BBC World Service. We're the programme that dumps a bucket of iced water over dodgy statistics in the news and in life. And. And I'm Tim Harford. So this week we'll be tack. Oh, hang on. A bucket of ice water. No, you can write off. None of my friends have nominated me for the Ice Bucket Challenge.

[Keith]

That's because you don't have any friends, Tim.

[Tim Harford]

Yeah, very funny, Keith, very funny.

[Keith]

Oh, come on, Tim, it's for a good cause. You agree to have a bucket of icy water thrown all over you. You donate money to the ALS association in the US or the Motor Neurone Disease association in the uk. A lot of people have also been given money to WaterAid or to Macmillan Cancer Support too. You nominate three other people, the joy of giving spreads.

[Tim Harford]

And so does pneumonia.

[Keith]

Oh, come on, Tim. Benedict Cumberbatch has done it. Oprah Winfrey's done it. Even George W Bush, the former US president, has done it. The ALS association raised $100 million this August, which is more than 30 times what it raised in the same period last year. ALS stands for Amyotrophic Lateral sclerosis, which is also known as motor neurone disease in the uk. And the Motor Neurone Disease association has also been benefiting. It's received the equivalent of six months income in just a few days. Everyone's doing it.

[Tim Harford]

Well, that's all very well, but a true nerd doesn't run with the herd. I always look at the evidence first. So why don't we call up Douglas Graham of the Motor Neurone Disease Association?

[Douglas Graham]

Motor Neurone disease is a fatal and rapidly progressive disease which attacks the motor neurons. The neurons allow you to move your muscles. It leaves people trapped in a failing body, unable to walk, unable to talk, unable to feed themselves and eventually unable to breathe.

[Tim Harford]

Well, that's clearly a horrible illness. So what does the Motor Neurone Disease association do with all these donations?

[Douglas Graham]

We have three main aspects to our work. We fund world class research into trying to find the causes of mnd, because most of them are not yet known, and also ultimately to find an effective treatment and a cure. We also do a lot of work providing care and support to people living with the disease and their families. And Then the third pillar of our work is we also raise awareness.

[Tim Harford]

I think there's no question that it's a worthy cause. But is it the most worthy cause? When people take the Ice Bucket Challenge, I'm guessing they do it for a laugh because they've been prodded by a friend, rather than because of a logical assessment of the merits of the donation. Here's Neil Bauerman, co founder of the Centre for Effective Altruism.

[Neil Bowerman]

The viral nature of the Ice Bucket Challenge is genius from the side of als. If your aim was to raise as much money as possible, this would be a pretty good way of doing it. However, there are some risks and some worries with this. It is the viral nature of the campaign that determines which charities get the most funding. I don't think viral memes should be what determine our charitable spending. I think it should be which charities have the most impact.

[Tim Harford]

Neil thinks that there's a real problem with cannibalisation here, that people have a fixed budget in mind for charitable giving. If they give more to one charity because of a viral campaign, they give less to others. A couple of experts that he's spoken to agree with him. And it's certainly true that charities in the UK are spending more and more on fundraising without any obvious results in the total donations to charity. Now, this claim of cannibalisation is a bit speculative. We spoke to Professor Stephen Lee of the Centre for Charity Effectiveness at Cass Business School. He says there's no evidence that charity cannibalisation exists. Except. And even then, this is just anecdote, except after large events such as Comic Relief or Band Aid. Professor Lee speculates that because the Ice Bucket Challenge produces spontaneous donations, it'll increase total donations, rather than eating into money that would have gone to other causes. But still, if I'm going to give money to charity, I want to think about the most deserving cause. Here's Neil Bowerman again.

[Neil Bowerman]

Health charities can be measured as to how much they improve people's quality and length of life. And some charities do this incredibly cheaply. For example, distributing malaria nets. It costs only between 10 and $100 to give someone an additional year of healthy life, whereas ALS sufferers have to spend something like $200,000 per year to sustain someone in the final years of the disease. And so for that amount of money, you could be helping hundreds of times, thousands of times more sufferers of diseases that are cheaper to cure.

[Tim Harford]

This makes perfect sense logically, but hearing you explain it, it sounds like I'm listening to Mr. Spock. It somehow Sounds very cold and uncaring.

[Neil Bowerman]

There's a number of different ways that people can do their charitable giving. You can donate so that you feel good, you can donate to causes that help friends of yours, or you can donate so that you can try and have as big an impact as you can. And in order to do that, it is unfortunately a difficult question. There are millions of charities in the world, and identifying which of them is going to do the most with your funds is not a case of looking at nice videos and nice pictures of smiling children. It's actually a case of going down into the data and looking at which of these is actually going to provide the most bang for your buck.

[Tim Harford]

Neil Bowerman of the center for Effective Altruism. So if I'm looking for ratings of cost effectiveness, I need to talk to Eli Hassenfeld. He's co founder of an American organization called GiveWell, which evaluates charities and produces recommendations for donors. So I began by asking him how they do this.

[Eli Hassenfeld]

We are looking at the independent academic evidence for a program asking questions like, how large an effect does this program have? How costly is it to obtain that effect, and how likely is it that this effect will translate into other conditions? We're looking for organizations that are transparent and allow us to thoroughly vet them and understand what's going well, what's going poorly, and how they're likely to perform in the future. We're looking for organizations that are working in the poorest parts of the world because those are places where small amounts of funds from donors can go very far. And then finally, we're looking for organizations that have a pressing need for additional funding. And so we're looking for ones that can take in money and put those marginal funds to good use.

[Tim Harford]

So, Ellie, I'm Planning to give £100 to a charity in a few minutes. Based on your research, what are the three top charities you would recommend?

[Eli Hassenfeld]

One of them is an organization called GiveDirectly. They have a very simple model, but is still new to the charitable world, which is directly giving cash to very poor people in East Africa. The two other organizations we recommend right now both work on a program called deworming, which, which is treating parasitic infections in the developing world. The two organizations, the Schistosomiasis Control Initiative, or sci, based in the UK and the deworm the World Initiative based in the US Run programs in slightly different ways, but broadly speaking, this is a program that for a very small amount of money, about 50 cents to a dollar per person, can treat young children, can rid them of this disease and has the potential to affect their cognitive development long term in a way that allows them to to lead more productive lives as adults.

[Keith]

Okay, Tim, so you've heard all the evidence. What are you going to do?

[Tim Harford]

I'm torn. I think I've got to donate £5 to motor neuron Disease association simply because it feels bad not to do that. But as an economist, having heard the evidence, I've got to donate money, my full hundred pounds to diseases of poor children in Sub Saharan Africa. And so I'm going to donate my hundred pounds to the schistosomiasis Control Initiative. I need to do nominations. I'm going to nominate three of my favorite economists and I would urge them to make a charitable donation, being guided by economic logic. They are Evan Davis, Stephanie Flanders and Tyler Cowan. Bring it on, Ben. Okay, that's cold. I'm going to get dry. And a video of my ice bucketing is online now. And that's all we have time for this week. Our email address is more or lessbc.co.uk. our website is bbcworldservice.com more or less. We'll be back next week. Until then, goodbye.

[Douglas Graham]

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