More or Less – April 3, 2026

Episode: AI Agents Destroying Internet Security (Anthropic's Leak, ClawCon Tokyo, OpenAI's $852B Valuation)

Hosts: Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, Sam Lessin

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the accelerating chaos created by AI agents in cyberspace, the security risks exposed by a recent Anthropic leak, the nuances of agent-driven software development, and the evolving landscape of big tech (highlighted by OpenAI’s staggering $852B valuation). Broadcasting from Tokyo after their appearance at ClawCon, the crew debates whether the promise of AI is empowering or apocalyptic, the cracks in Internet cybersecurity models, and what the new era means for both software businesses and individual creators.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. ClawCon Tokyo: An Insider’s Look

[00:50 – 6:38]

• Vibe & Experience: ClawCon Tokyo, attended by over 1000 people (most in costume), displayed the intersection of Japanese tech culture and global AI trends.
  • “Japanese love their cosplay.” – Brit [01:58]
  • “Zen environment... No one had to be asked to take their seats. They're already in their seats 10 minutes before.” – Brit [03:38]
• Real-Time Translation Breakthrough: Japan’s largest LLM provider ran live translations, seen as a business/technical leap.
  • “A real breakthrough in technical and business communication.” – Dave [02:14]
• Unique Japanese Perspectives: More optimism about AI than in the US, shaped by demographic urgency and a pragmatic culture.
  • “AI is quite positive here versus in the US it's, like, so negative...we want to know when something is made with AI or not, but we don't, like, hate it.” – Brit [04:05]
  • “They're running out of people... They just need agents to survive.” – Sam & Brit [06:14]
• Emerging Research: The Nintendo-connected ‘Artificial Life Institute’ explores evolutionary computing: “Can you understand life well enough to imbue it into a computer?” – Dave [05:00]

2. The Anthropic “Claude Code” Leak & Security Nightmares

[07:06 – 13:59]

• Leak or PR? Discussion of recent “leaks” at Anthropic; some regarded as marketing stunts, the code leak seen as an actual blunder exposing Typescript frontend code instead of core secrets.
  • “The Claude code thing I think is like a legit fuck up.” – Sam [08:23]
  • “There is some interesting stuff in there in terms of how it works, which I thought like you generally wouldn't want other people to necessarily know.” – Sam [08:56]
• Supply Chain Weakness: Vulnerabilities stem from the deep dependency chain in software—AI agents now compound this risk.
  • “It's wild...this small piece of code some random dude on the Internet maintains is like the linchpin of the entire Internet.” – Sam [09:33]
• AI Agents Accelerate Risk:
  • Agents now autonomously seek, combine, and deploy software from the internet at velocity, without human diligence.
  • “You're moving faster, you're checking less...the cost is that there's all this implicit risk and subversion.” – Sam [10:44]
• Security vs. Speed Tradeoff:
  • “You’ll be able to charge an enormous premium for security and privacy. But the problem is...your stuff's going to suck compared to the stuff that moves fast.” – Sam [11:36]
  • “We’re kind of witnessing...the final Internet disaster of AI.” – Sam [12:17]
• Collapse of Trust:
  • “You're just going to have all these agents running around doing crazy shit...no one will trust anything and the whole thing collapses.” – Sam [12:27]

3. Real-World Example: Jessica’s Bot Security Dilemma

[13:59 – 18:32]

• Practical Security Headaches:
  • Jessica describes her increasing willingness to sacrifice security for convenience while integrating agents like Claude into her workflow (allowing permissions, skipping due diligence).
  • “Before I know it, I'm just installing dev toolkits... Did you press always allow?” – Brit [15:17]
• Bundled vs. Unbundled AI Interfaces:
  • After struggles, Jessica reconsiders if AI agents should be central interfaces, or if their features should be embedded natively in each service.
  • “After my experience...I'm not sure it needs to be all together in one place.” – Jessica [17:57]
• Sam’s Take:
  • “First of all, I sandbox this stuff aggressively...I don't run any of this stuff on my actual computer.” – Sam [21:29]
  • He demands total freedom for builders, even if it means taking on security risk personally.

4. The “Raw Metal” Future: No More Rules

[21:29 – 27:56]

• Collapse of Platform Control:
  • With models and agents capable of coding and orchestrating directly “to the metal,” usage restrictions by individual services are futile.
  • “As long as someone in the world provides some digital service, it will be found and you can instantly use it, which means that there can be no rules.” – Sam [27:44]
  • “One person sharing all the weights...away from like anyone being able to do any of this anywhere.” – Dave [27:56]
• Software Customization & One-off Tools:
  • The rise of “vibe coding” and personal apps—both Sam and Dave recount rebuilding existing services like “granola” out of frustration.
  • “You just want like customizations.” – Brit [28:41]
  • “People are going to be able to just request the software...and it will just materialize onto the Internet.” – Dave [31:04]

5. What Happens to Software Businesses?

[31:06 – 32:11]

• The End of Traditional Software Models:
  • With infinite customization and AI-generated tools, classic software business “moats” dissolve.
  • “That's why I'm so bullish on software and so negative on software businesses.” – Sam [32:04]

6. OpenAI’s $852B Valuation & Tech Funding Hype

[32:11 – 39:20]

• Retail Investor Influx:
  • New “synthetic” venture fund models allow small investors to buy into private companies like OpenAI, SpaceX (via platforms like Robinhood).
• Skepticism on Valuations:
  • Sam derides OpenAI’s valuation:
    • “This is like a ridiculous. This is just ridiculous. I mean, it's like whatever...The story is people don't know where to put any money, and money's cheap, right?” – Sam [33:31]
    • “It’s a commodity business with no defensibility...I don’t understand how any of these companies make sense.” – Sam [34:04]
• Anthropic Growth Projections:
  • Dave reviews a bullish future valuation and revenue chart for Anthropic, which Sam sharply dismisses.
  • “48 billion in EBITDA is like a very large number, that does not justify the valuation that we're talking about.” – Sam [36:27]
  • “People need to store their money somewhere and they need to store it in hope...this is the hope thing at scale...from a fundamental business perspective, none of this makes any financial sense.” – Sam [37:04]

7. Local Inference: Hype or Hope?

[37:39 – 39:20]

• Dave's Bet:
  • He backs “local inference” (AI run on edge devices, not just in the cloud) as a possible differentiator.
  • “We’re going maximum Deep in open claw...how is that.” – Dave [37:56]
• Sam’s Counter:
  • Still, hyper-flexibility and ease of switching between platforms implies no real lock-in or profit moat.

Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Network Security Collapse:

  • “It's always been wild...this small piece of code some random dude on the Internet maintains is like the linchpin of the entire Internet.” – Sam [09:33]
  • “You're just going to have all these agents running around doing crazy shit and including things. They have no idea what they're doing and...no one will trust anything and the whole thing collapses.” – Sam [12:27]

• On Builder Power:

  • “I want the rawest tools available and then take responsibility for sandboxing them myself.” – Sam [22:16]

• On the Software Business Model:

  • “That's why I'm so bullish on software and so negative on software businesses. Because I'm just like...These are just tokens.” – Sam [32:04]

• On Individual Empowerment:

  • “The amount people are using software is not going down...people are going to continue to want software like they want music. And the fact that more people can make this than ever before I think is a really good thing.” – Dave [44:02]

Actionable Takeaways & Closing Thoughts

[39:56 – 46:34]

• Sam’s Call to Action:

  • “The number one thing you must be doing is aggressively playing with everything...you should be playing with everything and having your own opinions.” – Sam [40:11]

• Dave’s Perspective:

  • “This stuff is just incredibly empowering...watching people who are normies able to create their own software.” – Dave [42:31]
  • “Does that mean there’s going to still be as many trillion dollar companies? Maybe not. But...you can build deca-million, hundred million, billion dollar companies—and a lot more of them.” – Dave [44:02]

• Semantic Battleground: Who is a “Software Developer”?

  • “The number of software developers goes down. Just the number of people who...build software the way I write essays goes up.” – Sam [44:59]
  • “Do you still feel...that the number of software developers is going to go up or just the number of people who...build the way they write an essay?” – Sam [44:59]
  • “Whatever we call them, we call them. But I think it's...very great.” – Dave [46:27]

Important Timestamps for Segments

• [00:50] – ClawCon Tokyo, Japanese AI take
• [07:06] – Anthropic leak, marketing vs. real security breaches
• [10:44] – Security model breakdown with AI agents
• [13:59] – Jessica’s “Bot Corner” and permission fatigue
• [21:29] – Developer’s view: sandboxing agents and “raw metal” computing
• [27:44] – Collapse of service “rules,” the futility of platform limits
• [31:04] – The future of software: personal applications, “vibe coding”
• [32:11] – OpenAI’s $852B valuation and the logic (or lack thereof) behind it
• [37:39] – Local inference as competitive edge
• [39:56] – Advice for listeners; empowerment, chaos, and creativity

Summary for Skimmers

• The internet's security paradigm is imploding as AI agents autonomously assemble software from vast, unvetted libraries—creating both wild new capabilities and exposure to invisible threats.
• Japan’s positive, pragmatic view on AI contrasts with western anxiety—partly because of demographic pressures and a culture of practical adaptation.
• “Vibe coding” and personal software will explode, driven by agents and accessible AI—obliterating traditional software business moats, but opening creative agency to all.
• Valuations and capital flows into AI companies are “narrative-driven” and not grounded in business reality; the abundance mindset makes hope (and hype) into an asset class.
• Main takeaways: Play with the tools now, experiment, and recognize you don’t need to be technical to build software in this new era; the future may not belong to software companies, but to empowered creators.

End of Summary.