Podcast
More or Less
Hosted by Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin · EN
Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
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36episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Jeff Dean Leaves Google, Airtable Sells, and the Bag-Securing Era
Today00:55:19Summary readySam records from the beach while dealing with a broken bilge pump. Dave calls in after herding cattle. Fortunately, tech continues without them, which Sam takes as further proof that AGI is already running the industry. The crew unpacks Google's leadership shakeup and Jeff Dean's departure after 27 years, debates whether Airtable's sale to Bending Spoons is the blueprint for surviving the AI transition, and Sam argues that today's AI labs look increasingly like yesterday's overvalued SaaS companies. Along the way they explain why Sam's AI built his kid an iPhone game, why OpenAI's luxury creator retreat backfired, why Apple may have accidentally created its own lawsuit, and whether AI can ever overcome the growing public backlash against it. Chapters:0:00 Episode Trailer1:07 Episode Start2:08 Sam's Boston Whaler Beach Studio3:13 Dave Herds Cattle in Montana5:31 Google's AI Shakeup, Jeff Dean Leaves, Demis Steps Back8:57 Why Great Researchers Don't Always Make Great CEOs10:48 Recursive Self-Improvement and the AI Talent Wars19:41 Airtable Sells to Bending Spoons25:33 Not Every SaaS Company Is Dead27:50 The Constellation Software Playbook30:05 The Next Big Write Downs Are AI Labs31:59 Apple vs. OpenAI, Courtesy of iCloud35:20 OpenAI's Creator Summit Backlash40:53 Why People Still Hate AI43:39 AI Slop and the Content Problem45:11 SpaceX's Lockup and Number Big48:00 Nikita Bier Leaves X50:22 Jess's Posting Dilemma53:40 Next Week on More or LessWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryZuck says AI is for everyone, His Rivals Ask Washington To Slow it Down
1w ago00:59:23Summary readyNew studio set up: the squad now records from a parked Tesla in the middle of a rainstorm while Sam is on the beach, and somehow it turned into one of our favorite episodes. We break down Meta's new AI campaign, Zuckerberg's vision for AI, why more than 1,000 frontier AI researchers are asking Washington to slow development, and whether fear has become the easiest narrative in tech. Then we get into China cracking deep ultraviolet lithography, what it means for ASML and the AI race, why AI demand still isn't slowing, Lilian Weng's move from Thinking Machines to OpenAI, and Sam's theory that Silicon Valley has developed an Oppenheimer complex.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:23 Episode start9:02 Meta's Ad Campaign Rejects The Doomers11:14 Zuckerberg's Optimism Blitz Actually Lands13:11 AI's Dark Side Raises Easier Money15:04 Sam's Bot Read 4GB Of Dad's Journals17:28 Nobody Wants To Be Anthropic18:56 Anthropic Runs On Spite For OpenAI21:10 OpenAI Was The Original Evil Empire22:57 Meta Is Still A Centralized Ad Company24:46 Decentralization Loses Without A Jedi26:01 Apple Won On Politics, Not Technology27:16 Meta Earnings Miss On Lawsuits And Severance28:33 China Cracks DUV, ASML Takes The Hit29:57 Execs Privately Reject The China AI War32:39 The Compute Debate Gavin Baker Started39:13 X Is The Tech Town Square Now46:57 Lilian Weng Quits For Health, Joins OpenAI53:50 AI Is A Crisis Of Meaning54:57 Book The Conference Before You're InvitedWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/PBGC6CjfdtMConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryDid OpenAI Stage Its Own Cyber Incident? | Stripe Buying Paypal, Frontier Model Economics, Peptides
2w ago01:01:08Summary readyDeep summer check-in from the More or Less squad. Dave is back on Instagram after a year away (thanks to Stagecoach), Jessica reviews Benson Boone's Wanted Man tour, Chris Stapleton's Montana show gets a shoutout, and Sam is traveling with a Yeti cooler full of peptides. Don’t worry, this is still a tech podcast: OpenAI revealed an AI that escaped its testing sandbox and hacked Hugging Face. The crew's hot take is that OpenAI is leaning into the story to strengthen its narrative as revenue growth slows. Then, Stripe could be eyeing PayPal. Sam argues Stripe missed a once-in-a-generation opportunity by staying private instead of using public stock as acquisition currency the way Meta did with WhatsApp. They also explain why agentic commerce still isn't real, despite the hype. Plus, “Peptide Corner” returns with reports from the Hamptons, where peptides have officially gone mainstream, rich people inflation has reached $67 for two cappuccinos and sandwiches, and Sam shares an update on his recovering knee.Chapters:0:00 Episode Trailer2:07 Dave Returns to Instagram, Sam Turns 43, and More8:41 OpenAI's AI Escaped Its Sandbox16:43 The National Guard Analogy31:57 Sam's Bot Rebellion Theory37:44 Is Stripe Buying PayPal?47:48 Why Agentic Commerce Isn't Here Yet49:40 Peptide Corner52:53 Rich People Inflation54:03 Sam's Knee Recovery56:47 The GLP-1 PlaybookWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/460NqsdQm5AConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryAI Regulatory Capture Bet: Why OpenAI & Anthropic Stopped Competing on Tech
3w ago00:50:03Summary readyYou know we're deep into summer when Jess leaves the pod early to catch Benson Boone... for the eighth time. This week, the More or Less squad revisits the Anthropic and OpenAI IPO speculation. Their views haven't changed, but their AI usage certainly has. Dave ditches Anthropic for GLM 5.2 on cost, while Sam argues the AI model wars are effectively over, and the frontier labs know it, which is why they're spending more time in Washington than competing on model quality. America also gets its first serious open weights model. The squad also unpacks OpenAI's hardware ambitions after its much-hyped device turns out to be... an Alexa speaker. Sam explains why Sam Altman's $8 billion Johnny Ive acquisition was effectively free, thanks to narrative capitalism. Plus: real-time voice AI, passive listening devices, peptides, Hinge's new social proof feature, Jay-Z turning New York into a festival, and why biological age tests are basically the clout score of your body.Chapters:0:00 Episode Teaser0:44 Episode Start2:18 Anthropic IPO This September?5:29 Dave Dumps Anthropic for GLM 5.28:22 When Is Better AI Worth Paying For?12:15 AGI Is Dead, AI Is Political Now16:15 America's First Open Weights Model By Thinking Machines21:22 Why Sam Is Depressed About AI29:07 OpenAI Built... an Alexa? The $8B Johnny Ive Bet31:38 Silicon Valley Goes Hollywood36:03 Would You Wear an Always-On Mic?37:08 OpenAI's Live Voice Model41:14 Sam's Peptide Experiment43:36 Hinge Launches “Friend’s Take” 46:11 Jay-Z's NYC Takeover48:16 Biological Age Is Just a Clout ScoreWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/B6fO5V09xOcConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryOpenAI Offered the Government a Stake. Is This a Distress Signal?
4w ago00:55:10Summary readyThe full quad is back, unpacking OpenAI's offer to give the U.S. government an equity stake. Sam's take: it's less a marketing win than a distress signal. The squad also debates whether Trump Accounts actually reach everyday Americans (Brit is skeptical), defends MacKenzie Scott from the internet's endless opinions about her philanthropy, and digs into Dave's argument that AI labs are slowly strangling the developer ecosystems that could save them.They also tackle Xbox's identity crisis and whether Microsoft should just sell it, the Nex Playground device (In Sam's words: non-VR Beat Saber for families), why 2026 is shaping up to be extreme nihilism wrapped in Silicon Valley optimism, Brit's take that AI has shifted from revolutionary to evolutionary, and, of course in pop culture corner, Brit claiming full credit for calling the Taylor Swift wedding strategy.Chapters:0:00 Episode Trailer0:47 Episode Begins1:10 Fourth of July Recap, Bald Eagles & the No VC Summer5:10 OpenAI Offered the U.S. Government Equity11:15 Trump Accounts, Giving Every American Kid a Stake in Capitalism15:02 Stop Judging MacKenzie Scott's Philanthropy18:40 AI Labs Are Distressed and Destroying Their Ecosystems21:50 AI Labs Are Competing With Their Own Developers35:26 Xbox Is in Trouble, Should Microsoft Sell It?37:52 Nex, the Quiet Wii Revival Nobody Saw Coming41:49 Sam's 2026 Prediction: Extreme Nihilism Meets Silicon Valley Optimism44:04 Vox Americanus Update46:18 Brit Is Bored of AI. It's Evolution, Not Revolution48:22 Post-AGI Funds Are a Bad Bet, Physical AI Could Be the Real Revolution49:27 Going Long on Offline, World Cup, Concerts & Real Life51:50 Pop Culture Corner: Brit Calls Taylor Swift's Wedding StrategyWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MoreorLessPodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryWhy Identity Verification Matters For The Internet | Vox Americanus, GLM 5.2, Claude Fable 5 Is Back
Jul 300:54:12Summary readyThe full quad is back just before the Fourth of July. Dave and Sam explain why padel is just pickleball for fancy people, Sam vibe-coded an app to prove you’re actually American on the internet (Vox Americanus is real and you can use it: https://voxamericanus.com), and Dave even nominates Sam for office, even though Sam insists we should fix the job before electing anyone actually good for it. The crew also dives into why non-engineers are more capable than they think in the age of agentic coding, Claude Fable 5’s government clearance “drama” and return, how GLM 5.2 is quietly replacing Opus 4 on real agent stacks, why Anthropic is still printing revenue despite open source pressure, and the case for an open source router.. They wrap with pop culture corner: Taylor Swift wedding intel and Brit’s review of Alpha School.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer0:50 Episode start1:12 Full Quad Pre-4th of July, Is There Such a Thing as VC Summer?3:32 Padel Is the New VC Networking Sport, Pickleball Is for the Plebs9:10 Vox Americanus, Can You Actually Prove You're American Online?15:25 Should Sam Run for Office? Fix the Job Description First29:30 Agentic Coding, You're Not Too Late35:33 Claude Fable 5 Is Back, Government Clearance Drama Explained41:08 GLM 5.2, Open Source Just Quietly Replaced Opus 446:16 Anthropic Still Printing Revenue, The Case for an Open Source Router47:29 Taylor Swift's Wedding49:36 Alpha School, Brit's Kids Try AI Education52:12 America's 250th BirthdayWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/zqmbW163QKQConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryChinese AI Model GLM 5.2 Beating Frontier Models | Meta Glasses, Polymarket Scandal, and More AI Talent War
Jun 2600:49:33Summary readyThe quad is back. Dave and Brit rejoin Sam and Jess fresh off a More or Less fan encounter at the Zurich airport. It was quite the week for Meta as the squad breaks down the company’s new line of glasses featuring Kylie Jenner (or, in Jess’ words, Kendall), and Brit makes the call that this is finally the watershed moment for women buying smart glasses ( The men seem to be the early adopters, Dave wore his in the Sistine Chapel, and Sam owns 10+ pairs.). Then they get into Meta’s prediction market: a genuinely interesting information machine or a very efficient way to addict twenty-somethings to fake gambling? In true MOL fashion, the squad is split. Sam is all in, Dave is worried it’ll work too well, and Brit thinks it’ll all click when you tie it to The Bachelor. Dave also ran GLM 5.2 on eight Nvidia B200s with some hacker friends and came away shaken. Open source is now matching, if not outperforming, frontier models at 10x the speed, raising uncomfortable questions about the enormous bets sitting on frontier labs today. Remember last year’s AI talent war? It’s back, and Jess argues it’s really an early indicator of investor insecurity. Finally, in pop culture corner: Cannes and Sam’s unsolicited review of The Information's new mobile app.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer0:50 Intro1:12 MOL Got Recognized at the Zurich Airport3:02 What’s on the Agenda Today5:04 Meta Smart Glasses, The Moment Women Finally Buy In?14:20 Meta’s Prediction Markets, Brilliant or Addictive?19:39 Polymarket’s Influencer Problem22:48 AI Talent Wars, Investors Are Reading the Wrong Signals25:40 GLM 5.2 on Nvidia B200s, Open Source Catches Frontier Models28:20 AI Token Spend, Sam’s $1,500/Month Experiment31:04 Sam Reviews The Information App Live36:17 Anthropic, Dell, and the Math Behind Generational Returns43:30 Cannes Lions, Worth It or Corporate Boondoggle?We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/dbdH6dPMDxkConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryElon Is the Best Financier of Our Generation
Jun 1900:40:50Summary readySam and Jessica go two-on-two this week to unpack the SpaceX IPO and whether a $2.5 trillion valuation is actually justified, exploring why “it’s valuable because it’s valuable” may be a legitimate investment thesis and why Cursor’s $60 billion acquisition looks cheap in that context. They also break down Anthropic’s clash with the U.S. government over Fable 5, with Sam arguing the crackdown could be the best marketing in AI history, before debating the risks of tying software access to nationality. The episode closes with Meta’s AI morale problem, OpenAI burning nearly $4 billion in Q1 on $5.7 billion in revenue, the case for a multi-model future where no single frontier model wins, and why Sam believes token economics may be one of the most overlooked opportunities in economics. In lieu of Pop Culture Corner, Jessica brings a Reed Hastings book recommendation, while Sam once again demonstrates that having conviction and acting on it are apparently two different skill sets. After eight months of pitching DigitalOcean, he still doesn’t own the stock.Chapters:00:00 - Teaser01:47 - SpaceX IPO Analysis09:17 - Narrative Assets and Retail Investing12:09 - The Future of AI Models and Infrastructure16:00 - Corporate Narratives, Employee Motivation, and Meta’s AI Challenges22:58 - OpenAI’s Market Strategy and Impact25:19 - Open Source Models and Market Share27:01 - Economics of Tokens and Innovation33:01 - Anthropic’s PR Strategy and Fable Model Release35:24 - Government Stakes in AI Companies39:04 - Reed Hasting's Book RecommendationWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/ZVD3jS6LexcConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
SummaryTeamshares IPO: $60M EBITDA, 92 Companies, Zero Exits
Jun 1700:51:57Summary readySeven years after Slow wrote its first check, Sam sits down with Teamshares CEO Mike Brown as the company prepares to go public. Mike’s core insight is simple: America has millions of durable, cash-flowing small businesses, but no great long-term owner. After buying and operating electrical contractors himself, he realized the opportunity wasn’t another marketplace or PE roll-up, it was building a permanent holding company that acquires great businesses, gives employees ownership, and never sells. Today, Teamshares owns 92 businesses generating roughly $60M in EBITDA. The conversation explores why most roll-ups fail, why capital allocation is the true operating system of the business, and why the traditional private equity model may be running out of steam. Mike closes with an ambitious goal: grow corporate EBITDA from $19M to $100M by 2027 and create a forever home for thousands of small businesses.Chapters:00:00 Episode Teaser Featuring Mike Brown, Teamshares CEO01:11 The Teamshares Origin Story04:48 From Wall Street to Buying Small Businesses10:47 Why Going Direct to Sellers Didn’t Work (The FSBO Problem)13:18 Buying at Scale, The Teamshares Model15:27 92 Acquisitions and $60M EBITDA, Lessons Learned18:26 Why Generalist Hires Didn’t Work19:08 Building a Leadership Pipeline23:46 The Internal YC, Community Across Portfolio Companies27:42 How Technology Powers 92 Businesses28:08 “Will This Business Exist in 50 Years?”32:21 Why Most Roll-Ups Fail37:30 The Road to $100M EBITDA39:51 The Long-Term Vision40:58 Capital Allocation as a Competitive Advantage42:34 Decentralized Leadership, Centralized Capital46:16 Why Private Equity Fails Small Businesses49:25 Going Public, What Comes NextWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/3tV4wdtZBukConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britImportant Disclosures and Disclaimers: Teamshares has entered into a definitive agreement for a business combination with Live Oak Crest Acquisition Corp. (“Live Oak”), a special purpose acquisition company. In connection with the proposed transaction, a registration statement on Form S-4 (the “Registration Statement”) has been filed with, and been declared effective by, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (the “SEC”). This podcast does not constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. For important information about the proposed transaction, including where to find the Registration Statement and other legal disclaimers, please refer to the press release available at https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20260527344175/en/Teamshares-Announces-S-4-Effectiveness-in-Anticipation-of-Nasdaq-Listing.Clarifications:Teamshares currently has 93 operating subsidiaries. Additionally, Teamshares has had documented revenue declines and business closures. A full reconciliation of non-GAAP measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures, as well as Teamshares’ audited GAAP financial statements, is available in the Registration Statement. Investors should review the full set of assumptions and risk factors accompanying these metrics in the Registration Statement.
SummaryApple’s New Siri, SpaceX’s $300B IPO & the AI Company Killing Its Own Brand
Jun 1200:44:11Summary readyDave joins the squad from YC just ahead of WWDC, where the group breaks down Apple’s upgraded Siri and the surprising revelation that much of Apple’s AI capability is powered by Google’s Gemini models. It wouldn’t be a technology podcast without the squad expanding into the broader AI landscape, with Dave arguing that outside of OpenAI and Anthropic, most AI companies are becoming infrastructure providers rather than destination products. They continue to unpack the IPO frenzy around SpaceX and OpenAI, including SpaceX’s reportedly massive investor demand and OpenAI’s murky timeline to go public. Jess then shifts the conversation to the turmoil at 60 Minutes, where leadership shakeups, internal revolts, and a declining brand presence raise questions about the future of legacy media. Finally, in Pop Culture Corner, the pod closes with Disney’s $200 million bet on Toy Story 5 and Taylor Swift’s outsized promotional impact.Chapters:01:53 Apple WWDC: New Siri Breakdown05:18 Google Gemini Powers Apple AI07:06 WWDC Ignored Developers Entirely10:21 Tim Cook’s Leadership Baton Pass14:30 SpaceX IPO and OpenAI Filing18:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI Narrative War21:48 Dave Morin’s Two-Phone Redemption26:52 60 Minutes Leadership Implosion38:44 Toy Story 5 and Taylor SwiftWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/Yvox4U_8u1wConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
Summary