OpenAI Offered the Government a Stake. Is This a Distress Signal?

Summary

More or Less – Episode Summary
Episode Title: OpenAI Offered the Government a Stake. Is This a Distress Signal?
Podcast Hosts: Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, Sam Lessin
Date: July 10, 2026

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Overview

This week, the More or Less crew dives into the provocative headline: OpenAI offering the U.S. government a stake—potentially as a sign of distress. The discussion spanned the implications for capitalism, the unprecedented popularity gap between AI and other institutions, new wealth-sharing models, rising cynicism in tech, and the shifting landscape of video gaming and platform economics. The team's mix of sharp critical analysis, personal anecdotes, and tongue-in-cheek banter keeps things spicy while delivering thought-provoking commentary on tech and society in 2026.

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1. OpenAI & Government: Capitalism at a Crossroads

[05:44 – 10:10]

• Primary Discussion Point: The news that OpenAI has offered the U.S. government a 5% stake sparks a heated debate about capitalism, government intervention, and whether this move is a signal of distress.
• Sam Lessin’s Take:
  • Views the offer as “a complete fuck you to capitalism in a way that’s awful.”
  • Believes it's an effort to “gate” the AI market through regulatory capture, to the detriment of open competition.
  • “It becomes a game of politics where people feel gated out or gated in. And that is like the worst scenario for the long-term success of the country.” – Sam [00:05]
• Jessica Lessin & Dave Morin's Analysis:
  • Dave frames it as a “failure of our capital markets” since the public can’t invest in top tech companies anymore.
  • Offers the perspective that the move is “marketing to try to make AI have a better brand,” not necessarily about economics.
  • Dave: “AI is less popular in the United States than Jeffrey Epstein.” [09:07]
• Brit’s Take: Wonders if regular Americans care about the government stake, expressing skepticism about the impact on public perception.

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2. AI’s Popularity Problem & "Trump Accounts"

[10:12 – 14:46]

• Openclaw Foundation: Dave announces the Openclaw Foundation, aiming to “bring people closer to AI” to combat its poor reputation.
• Trump Accounts Explained:
  • Dave details the 'Trump accounts' program: every child born in the U.S. from a certain date gets a government-funded stake in the economy, bolstered by private donors (e.g. Michael Dell, Cardi B, Gwen Shotwell).
  • Aims to democratize wealth and create long-term capital ownership for ordinary Americans.
• Economic Realism:
  • The team is skeptical about the compounding claims (kids becoming millionaires by age 55), calling out "TikTok math."
• Brit: Sees it as an interesting idea but wonders whether anyone outside tech actually notices or cares.
• Jessica: Discusses philanthropy, defending MacKenzie Scott ("people have to shut up about judging how she’s done her philanthropy") and pushes back on common criticisms.

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3. Government Stakes: Distressed Signal or New Model?

[18:56 – 20:30]

• Historical Context (Sam):
  • Notes that government has historically taken company stakes during crises (e.g., banks, airlines, car companies).
  • The OpenAI situation is “crazy for us to not do this—so they’re distressed, they’re distressed.”
• Dave’s Counter:
  • Sees the OpenAI stake as a marketing move, not a bailout.
  • “The only real argument is this is marketing to try to make AI have a better brand and give everybody a stake.” [19:49]
• Consensus: The hosts generally agree the move is more political branding than genuine systemic change, and most Americans remain disengaged.

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4. Tech Platform Economics & Developer Ecosystems

[22:24 – 32:45]

• Developer Ecosystem Debate:
  • Dave argues AI companies should prioritize empowering developers and sharing more revenue rather than building closed platforms or competing directly.
  • “If you can make your developer ecosystem make more money than you do, you are in a much better position.” – Dave [29:38]
  • Sam questions whether empowering developers actually shifts public or political perceptions.
• Platform Comparisons:
  • Amiable disagreement over which companies are true "platforms"—Apple and Google named, with a nod to their developer ecosystems, though their rent extraction is critiqued.
  • Jessica: “Their sustainability is their profitability.” [27:39]
• Meta & Open Source:
  • Dave and Sam suggest Meta should have doubled down on open source and become a cloud provider for developers, echoing early Facebook platform discussions.

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5. Wealth, Meritocracy, and Generational Cynicism

[23:16 – 26:01]

• Sam’s Macro Narrative:
  • Outlines how American capitalism has historically expanded opportunity by “Terra Nova” moments (land, then industrialization, then the Internet).
  • AI represents a narrowing opportunity: “more wealth but fewer humans who are dealt into it.”
  • “With each successive wave, the number of people you need goes down… The reality is when you start chipping in capitalism, you should have a freedom. And people are going to do that if they feel like … the game is rigged or unfair.” [25:57]
• Meritocracy:
  • Sam underscores the importance of meritocracy to sustain capitalism and freedom in a high-leverage world.
• Cynicism:
  • Observes a stark optimism/pessimism split between Silicon Valley and broader society, leading to broader societal cynicism.

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6. Video Gaming: Shifting Demographics & Platforms

[35:28 – 40:36]

• Xbox Restructuring:
  • The group discusses major layoffs and strategic shifts at Xbox, noting aging demographics:
    • “Turns out the most prolific video gamer is a 37 year old man. It used to be much younger, like kids in TE and now it's 37.” – Brit [36:08, 37:05]
  • Points out that teenagers are moving away from gaming toward social media and other interests.
• The NEX Device:
  • Dave recommends NEX, a new portable motion-controlled gaming device, lauding its multiplayer and movement-based aspects.
  • The group reminisces about past gaming innovations like Xbox Kinect and Nintendo Wii, noting NEX as their spiritual successor.

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7. AI Hype Fatigue & "The Boredom Plateau"

[45:53 – 48:07]

• Brit’s Hot Take:
  • Admits to feeling bored with day-to-day AI use: “I'm just a little bit bored of AI right now, and I wonder if the people will agree with me.” [46:18]
  • Describes the novelty wearing off after automating her regular life, noting the current wave feels “evolutionary, not revolutionary.”
• Dave’s Reflection:
  • Notes that if the market moves to post-AGI funds while AI progress is incremental, the entire thesis could be off.
• Physical AI:
  • Brit and others suggest the next frontier is physical—automation, robotics, and data from the real world.

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8. Closing Thoughts: Long Offline, Short Hype

[49:14 – end]

• Sports, Live Experiences, and Real-World Value:
  • With AI plateauing, the hosts see value shifting back offline: sports teams, live music, concerts, real estate.
  • “All of these offline communal activities are going to keep growing and growing. So I'm long, long offline.” – Brit [51:22]
• Pop Culture Corner:
  • Taylor Swift’s wedding strategy is dissected, with Brit claiming vindication on her earlier prediction.
  • Dave speculates about Taylor’s possible Sphere residency in Las Vegas.
• Meta-Commentary on Narratives:
  • Sam ends on a note of “2026 nihilism,” observing that “all we’re doing is trading narratives” rather than tracking substance.
  • "The level of cynicism is wildly high right now, from my view, which is kind of an interesting match with all this..." [41:43]
• Calls for Capitalism & Monetization:
  • Banter about how, despite pro-capitalist talk, the podcast is yet to monetize.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On OpenAI's government stake:
  • “It's a travesty. It's like a classic pirate splitting the booty. I'll take 95%. Here's 5%.” – Sam [07:23]
• On AI and Capitalism:
  • “AI is less popular in the United States than Jeffrey Epstein.” – Dave [09:07]
• Trump Accounts as Economic Reform:
  • “The idea is to give every child born in the United States a stake in the American capital economy.” – Dave [10:58]
• On Philanthropy Critiques:
  • “If any other man was just doing this, to be honest, it would not even face an iota of the criticism that [MacKenzie Scott] faces for living her life.” – Jessica [15:39]
• On Platform Ecosystems:
  • “If you can make your developer ecosystem make more money than you do, you are in a much better position.” – Dave [29:38]
• On the Cynicism in 2026:
  • “This is kind of my 2026 takeaway: just like, extreme nihilism where all we’re doing is trading narratives.” – Sam [41:43]
• On AI Hype Plateau:
  • “I'm just a little bit bored of AI right now... It's just not as novel.” – Brit [46:18]
• Epitaph for the Episode:
  • “So fucked. But, like, they're great. I love using them.” – Sam, on the state of current AI companies [45:55]
• On what lasts:
  • "All of these offline communal activities are going to keep growing and growing. So I'm long, long offline." – Brit [51:22]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• OpenAI Government Stake & Capitalism Failure: 05:44–10:10
• AI Popularity & Trump Accounts: 10:12–14:46
• Capital Markets & Distressed Companies: 18:56–20:30
• Platform Ecosystems & Developer Economics: 22:24–32:45
• Cynicism, Meritocracy & Wealth Sharing: 23:16–26:01, 41:43–44:07
• Gaming Shifts, NEX Device, Xbox: 35:28–40:36
• AI Boredom & Next Frontiers: 45:53–48:07
• Pop Culture, Concerts & Offline Experiences: 49:14–51:43

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Tone & Flow

The conversation was lively and candid, blending major tech industry critique with irreverence, humor, and a dose of personal storytelling. The hosts oscillate between razor-sharp skepticism, cynicism towards industry hype, genuine enthusiasm (about everything from patriotic fireworks to obscure gaming hardware), and friendly ribbing. The overall impression is of a group of insiders unimpressed by corporate posturing, united by deep expertise—and maybe, for now, just a little bit bored waiting for tech’s next big leap.

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For New Listeners:
This episode is a perfect encapsulation of how Silicon Valley's closest friends debate, dissect, and lampoon the latest in tech, economics, and culture—serving up both hard-won insight and contagious irreverence.

Transcript

[A]

Sam Altman trying to give 5% up to the government for regulatory capture. And all this politics is so bad, right? Because all of a sudden it makes the game not a fair and open game that at least you can play with rules. It becomes a game of politics where people feel gated out or gated in. And that is like the worst scenario for the long term success of the country. I think it's just like we should just buy sports teams and you know, real estate.

[B]

That's what Josh Kushner is doing. He's buying more sports teams.

[C]

Turns out the most prolific video gamer is a 37 year old man. It used to be much younger, like kids in TE and now it's 37. Insinuating that video gaming has actually not stayed as popular as it once was with our generation.

[A]

More or less.

[B]

Is it?

[A]

No.

[B]

Or is it

[A]

more or less?

[C]

Dave and Brit, plus Sam and Jess

[A]

put it all right to the test.

[B]

More or less. Why? Hello, friends. Welcome to More or Less. How was everyone's fourth of July?

[A]

So good. Love them.

[D]

Another year, America turned 250.

[C]

I love this holiday. I think it's a great holiday.

[A]

It's the best holiday.

[C]

I think it's like an under hyped holiday actually. Like, I feel like it might be third place.

[D]

Could not agree more.

[B]

Okay, say more, Brit, say more. Third place.

[C]

I mean, obviously we have Halloween and Christmas though. Those like steal the show. But I feel like fourth of July is third.

[D]

No, fourth of July is better.

[A]

No, no, fourth of July is way better. Fourth of July is the only holiday we all celebrate.

[D]

Yeah. And let me tell you about what fourth of July in Montana is like.

[B]

Oh, I bet it was epic.

[D]

It's like this unbelievable display of American pure unbridled competition. Who can shoot off the most ridiculous fireworks. It's amazing.

[B]

Does everyone have their fingers?

[D]

There's no rules about fireworks in Montana.

[C]

There's no laws. There's no like places you can do fireworks. You just do them in here. And also there's a bull in the parade. Like there are like wild animals coming through the downtown parade and that's so good. Yeah, it's definitely not a California parade.

[D]

It was interesting. They had like four guys guarding the bull as if like they were going to stop the bull if the bull got in trouble. Yeah, it was pretty hilarious.

[A]

I love that we got only hellos and merry fourth of July from people in Jackson Hole, which I thought was telling we weren't there, but it was like 100%.

[B]

Everyone we knew in Jackson wished us happy 4th of July, no one else wished us happy.

[A]

We were in Tahoe, which is, I think, the most American place to do the Fourth of July. It's like, I love all these places, but, like, Tahoe is pure America, is like Max America.

[B]

There were no bulls, though. I think we missed out.

[D]

Yeah, that's because you haven't been to Flathead Lake yet, Sam.

[A]

Ironic, since we own the land there. But, like, it's true. The big problem with Tahoe this year was one of the best parts of Fourth of July in Tahoe is the military hardware that comes out and buzzes the lake. And I have to assume it was just all repositioned either fight wars or Washington, D.C. displays, because I only saw one F16 all day, as opposed to, like, usually, get this, the big C1, 240, C140. You get everything. And I feel like there was very low military presence in Lake Tahoe.

[D]

It was all in D.C. let's be clear.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's what happened.

[A]

Guys. You wouldn't believe this. And this is the best part, is, like, we woke up for the 4th of July and of course had our children saluting an American flag, because that's what you do. And, you know, it flew by a fucking bald eagle, flew right by and landed. And it was like a beautiful.

[C]

Wait, I saw a bald eagle on the Fourth of July, too.

[A]

It was a Max bald eagle.

[C]

Same.

[D]

That's amazing.

[A]

And it was like, great, because I. It basically photobombed my flag shot and then landed in a tree. And I'm like, this is a sign from God.

[C]

No, I think it's a sign that Sam should be a politician, like we talked about in the last episode.

[B]

No, Brit, you gotta drop this. No one ran with it, Sam. So you're not riding with it.

[A]

You don't see. Life is long.

[C]

He said. We'll see. The door's open, Jess.

[B]

Life is long. I like that. Life is long. I like that very much. Okay, so America celebrated Taylor. We celebrated Taylor. We can circle back to this.

[A]

I got a. Replace this thing because I have a cleaning service.

[C]

That's what the noise is behind you.

[A]

Well, I don't know. 5pm is an interesting. I'm not going to comment.

[C]

We can cut this part.

[A]

No, it's fine. You can leave it. I'll just go to a different room.

[B]

But meanwhile, back in the land of technology. I'd say it was a light news week.

[A]

Oh, they're not done here either. Where am I supposed to go? I'll go to bathroom.

[B]

Sam, you can shut off. We do not need to hear this. Go into Lion's room.

[A]

This is ridiculous.

[B]

It's like, go into Lion's room. There's a desk in there.

[C]

It starts cleaning at 5pm People that have multiple cleaning jobs during the day.

[B]

Oh, okay. So what's happening in Techland? We have more AI models coming out. But actually I think we should start. But Sam does have interesting points of view on this, but we don't have to start. Is this idea is building steam that the government should take stakes in technology companies directly. We've talked a little bit about this. The latest headline, which I think is directionally right but specifically, specifically wrong is that OpenAI offered the government a 5% stake. I think things are way more fluid than that, but generally under discussion. What do you guys think this is? Speaking of America 250 is America 251.

[D]

What an abject failure of our capital markets that because these companies have not gone public and the American public has no ability to buy into the equity of these companies and participate in the wealth creation. Instead we have to have the US government buy a position in order to give people a stake. Like that's ridiculous.

[A]

No, they're not going to buy it. They're being given it.

[B]

Yeah, that's even worse.

[D]

It's ridiculous.

[A]

It is ridiculous. And I did CNBC on this last week. It's the most un American thing for the fourth of all I can imagine. But here's the thing.

[B]

You don't need to be explicit that the more or less readers are getting your CNBC hot takes a week later. So give us something else you didn't say on cnbc because come on, come on.

[A]

My kind of personal take on it is like it's a complete fuck you to capitalism in a way that's awful. But here's the interesting thing. What I said is you can't hate the game. I'm sorry, don't hit the player. Hate the game. Because here's the thing, the real story

[D]

is just get rid of the bad laws.

[A]

It's not about the laws. This is a situation where you have two things going on. One, you have companies, OpenAI being the poster child who are pretending that a commodity is not a commodity and they're fucked up, right? And like, if you think about it, it's like. And the only way is like basically say more.

[B]

Unpack that for people. You basically mean whose business margins are going to go to zero because they'll be commoditized. That's what you mean.

[A]

This is the business is multiplying large numbers. It's globally liquid. There's no natural barriers to. It's not even energy is more barriers than this because it's hard to ship energy, not hard to ship multiplication, output, same. On top of that, there's no regulatory framework, right? Whereas like, you know, PG&E is a regulated monopoly. So the only way that these companies survive is by embedding themselves and trying to create regional monopolies, right? So that they can charge more money for multiplying big numbers, right? Like that's the only way they survive. And it's the most cynical thing in the world to say to the government, hey, like here's 5%. Which by the way, the idea that like that is somehow a dividend for America, you're like, thanks, this is 100 bucks per person and a TR. It's like it's a, it's a, it's like a travesty. It's like, well, it's like it's a classic pirate splitting the booty. It's like I'll take 95%. Here's 5%. Congratulations. It's like ridiculous.

[D]

It's not even 5%. It's 0-000000005%.

[A]

Whatever it is, it's ridiculous. But the basic point is like I do actually have to give Sam Altman some credit, not as a business person, but as a politician. Because I do think this is. If you're in his position where one, you're trying to sell a commodity, you're set up where you have to have a premium prices on a commodity and you're screwed. And then two, even within the set of AI companies, let's pretend the political wind shift where this becomes palpable and like gets done. Of course Sam Altman is the one out promoting it because he has the least to lose. He's not a real company like Google or Open or Meta or someone. Actually 5% is meaningful and he's not even winning the pure AI race. Anthropic is. So if your competitors are going to lose more by having to give up 5% of the government than you are, then like hog wild, right? So it is one of those things where like very cynically I think it's a very, very smart strategy politics move. But the problem is I think you're

[D]

over complicating it, man.

[B]

Go man. Dave, Give it to us. Give it to us.

[D]

I just think it's way more simple. AI is less popular in the United

[A]

States than, than Jeffrey Epstein.

[D]

And Jeffrey Epstein.

[A]

It's literally less popular than Jeffrey Epstein. That's the most amazing part.

[D]

We've talked about this before, but this is like a. An incredibly serious problem. And in fact, by the time this pod comes out, we will have announced the openclaw Foundation.

[B]

Yay. Congrats.

[D]

And the openclaw foundation is explicitly making its literal mission to bring people closer to AI, not to drive them further apart. And I just think that that's the simple thing here, which is that AI is less popular than ICE and Jeffrey Epstein. And so doesn't matter if you're OpenAI, anthropic, or any other frontier lab, you have to do everything in your power to do marketing things that could possibly improve this. And that's the only explanation for this. Like, the only explanation for doing this is that you can have a nice press headline that everybody in America gets a piece of the AI stuff. And so therefore, you should care about it and not hate it so much. Like, I. I just think it's that simple. I don't know.

[A]

I think this is more about, like, getting your models right. I hear you. I.

[D]

Look, because there's no other rational reason to do it. Like, it just doesn't make sense.

[A]

I mean, I kind of like the Trump accounts.

[B]

Yeah. Fill people in on the Trump accounts. And I didn't want to get to Brit on her thoughts.

[D]

I think Trump accounts are amazing. The other problem in the United States is that people hate capitalism. Like, both capitalism and AI are extremely unpopular with certain parts of the populace.

[A]

I don't hate capitalism.

[C]

Definitely here in Montana.

[A]

Wait, Montana hates capitalism?

[B]

No, but it's freedom.

[D]

What are you talking about, Brit?

[C]

I mean, like, I feel like technology, venture capital, like, they're, they're anti.

[B]

No, but that's different from capitalism. Okay, Dave, give us The Trump accounts 101. Because there was big news on this front this week, too.

[D]

Trump accounts are, the idea is to give every child born in the United States a stake in the American capital economy. So you get a Trump account upon birth. There's some, you know, guardrails around this, like, children born in a certain window, and then everyone after that.

[A]

Well, it's also zip code based. I think it's, like, for poor kids.

[D]

No, you. Any kid born in a certain window, Sam. And I believe it starts with $1,000 that has been put into your account by the US government. And then you have private individuals such as, you know, Michael Dell and his wife and several others who are giving, you know, $250 to every. Every kid In America, interestingly, like, people like Cardi B. Who are giving, you know, $250 to everyone in her hometown and certain zip codes around it. So there's like a lot of people contributing to these Trump accounts, which, you know, give kids a stake in the capitalist economy of the United States. So that's the idea.

[A]

Well, which basically, in a world where like, entitlements and like, effectively, you know, retirement plans are decimated and not going to exist for them, the idea is like, let them benefit the market and be investment, which I think is great. Makes a lot of sense.

[C]

And I think, I think I read that, like, if you keep compounding these over time, theoretically by the time you're 55, you would have $13 million.

[A]

Right. But this is also like the same math that goes on TikTok of people being like, you can compound your way to hundreds of millions of dollars by saving lattes. So it's like, it's not really. I would. That's with a caveat. Like, basically, if they've compounded, you can

[D]

get into millions in 20 years.

[A]

If Trump accounts compound to millions in. In nominal, then we are in a very rough spot. Right. Is what I was saying. Like, that's not going to actually happen.

[B]

And a couple more just factual details. So Brad Gerstner of Altimeter played role in establishing this. Michael Dell. And also what you can do is they, Brad and Michael are. Are trying to get people like Gwen Shotwell, the COO of SpaceX, to donate some of their equity directly. And you can kind of do it

[D]

by zip code, which she did, I believe.

[B]

And she did. And she donated hundreds of millions of dollars in SpaceX to Trump accounts.

[A]

So what's the deal on that? Jesse? This is a great question, because genocide was, by all accounts, is amazing.

[B]

Are you asking what the tax treatment was? Because I don't.

[A]

No, no. Well, well, that is interesting. But I was going to ask you your take on like, her doing it and not Elon. Right. Because clearly that was like, it was like, okay, I'll do that.

[C]

You know, like, yeah, why hasn't Elon donated to the Trump accounts?

[D]

Maybe he will.

[A]

What do you think that. What do you think the vibe is?

[B]

I think that's interesting. So my account is actually seems like

[D]

it's just kind of gaining momentum and people are doing it because they want to.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I think that's right, Dave. I also think Gwen has been really interesting. She's maintained a pretty low profile for, I think, such a accomplished CEO, especially a woman I've only interviewed her once. I've tried to interview her many more times, and I think she's just been very, you know, under the radar, obviously has a busy job. And, you know, it was very clear that it was sort of with her husband, too, that they did it. And so I think it was just a very personal thing they wanted to do, honestly. And I think when you come into, like, that much wealth all at once, you're obviously think deeply about what impact you want to have, too. So I don't think there was much strategy between her or Elon really either.

[A]

I bet there was strategy.

[B]

I don't know. I think. I think she just really, really wanted to do it.

[D]

It's probably a simple strategy, actually, just that it just went public, now the stock's liquid, and so now start donating. Right. Like, that's pretty typical thing to do.

[B]

I can see why it's a really appealing option for someone who, you know, just came into, like, that much money as well, and who wouldn't either? A lot of philanthropic options.

[D]

But I.

[B]

This seems like a really cool one.

[A]

Well, I do think. I do think the contrast in that versus the, you know, the. The. Yet another uproar about Mackenzie Scott Bezos. Right. And, like, people kind of being upset about how she's treated philanthropy is, like, quite interesting.

[B]

Well, I think people have to shut up about judging how Mackenzie Scott Bezos has done her philanthropy or anyone.

[A]

Oh, why?

[B]

To be honest, like, I really do. And, like, Sam, I saw one of your tweets that irked me because you were like, you know, have any of these organization you. I know you have.

[C]

You.

[B]

You think nonprofits don't make sense as a structure. And one could have an interesting argument about that.

[C]

But.

[B]

And I don't know what's public or not, but Mackenzie Cabezos has supported in a super meaningful way so many organizations in a truly meaningful way. She just doesn't, like, go around and do podcasts about it. And I think that's really admirable. And people don't have to make the same choices themselves. But, like, why on earth. And if any other man was just doing this, to be honest, it would not even face an iota of the criticism that she faces for, like, living her life. No, I. I totally agree with that.

[A]

Look, she can do what she wants. Capitalism says do whatever she wants.

[B]

I mean, if Taylor Swift gave away that much money in that way, like, haters gotta hate. But, like, no, everyone would be like, oh, awesome, Taylor Swift.

[A]

Like, I don't know. I think effective altruism is stupid because I think that they have a really false sense of how they can calculate.

[B]

She's not any. MacKenzie Scott Bezos is not an effector of altruist at all.

[A]

No, no. That's almost like this is the point I'm making.

[D]

If anything, she's like the anti effective altruist.

[A]

That's. That was the point I'm going to make, which is like, I would say there's effective altruism on one end of the spectrum, which I'm sympathetic to the idea. I just think those guys are like smoking crack when they do their calculations. Right? And then there's like, and like what their assumption is of, like, how they can model the future. And there's mackenzie Scott basis, who is literally the opposite.

[D]

It's also become kind of a runaway ideology.

[A]

So of course it's ridiculous. But like, the point is like, they're just very extremes. Like, extreme. One is like, I'm going to try to calculate for maximum impact everything and pretend like I can do that and like, and like do that well, but you cannot. The other extreme is like, I'm just gonna write checks. Fuck it. Right? And I think, like, you know, look, and I do agree with you, Jess,

[B]

like, first of all, we have no idea how much research she puts in or doesn't just because she doesn't talk about it. How do you know, Sam?

[A]

Well, you know, I've heard a lot of things.

[C]

I've heard a lot of things.

[D]

Can we get back to Trump accounts?

[A]

The speed at which she's gone from here's an idea to like, here's $100 million and it is not given face.

[B]

This will shock you, but not everyone knows what they're talking about. This will just shock you. Trust but verify.

[C]

I think Sam's just reading TikTok and Instagram.

[B]

I have been on the board of a nonprofit she has donated money to. And there was a process. Let's just say that.

[A]

How long was that process?

[B]

Well, I'm not. It's just not. I mean, it was, it was no shorter than the process that other big name philanthropists who have foundations next to their last name go through. So, like, people's got to stop judging. Like, aren't there more important questions in the world than like, well, when you

[A]

give away $26 billion really quickly and the question is, that's like a reasonable thing for society to ask.

[B]

But is it like, who cares?

[D]

Like, yeah, is it Sam? You could give it away however the hell you want.

[A]

Oh, to be clear, I'm not saying she can do whatever she wants. I'm just saying I'm like, not. I'm a free. Go nuts. Like, do whatever you want. But I don't think.

[D]

This is fucking America, man. Free country. Donate your money how you want.

[A]

The part of the freedom is to have opinions about everything.

[D]

We know you have opinions about everything.

[B]

You can have opinions. I have the freedom to not think they're interesting. But, yes, you could have opinions. Okay, let's go back to this government thing. So we can agree that we don't feel great about the government taking stakes in tech companies. Sam, you made a point too. This does happen, but it happens in distressed bailout situations, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, this is my. The point I made is like the only time, if you look at the history of America, we have taken positions in companies historically.

[D]

I see. So that's. That's the argument you're making.

[A]

It's a distressed company.

[D]

This is a distressed buyout.

[A]

It's a distressed company. It's just a. They're basically putting.

[B]

It doesn't think it's a distressed buyout, but they're act.

[A]

And like, this is the thing is, like, if you look at history and people are really mad about this. Like, you know, go back to. Oh, people are like, what, the banks fail? But like, in history, there have been several episodes where, like, the US has taken stakes in companies, the government, mostly

[D]

banks and airlines and car companies. Right.

[B]

Well, there's also Intel. Intel more recently, to inject cash to

[A]

bail them out because they're important. Right. And like, this is funny because, like, there's no cash. There's no. There's no. But it is also like, one of those things are, like, the only. How we do this is for distress situations. It's crazy for us to not do this. So they're distressed. They're distressed.

[D]

If this was cash, your argument would. Would fly. But because it's not, I think the only real argument is this is marketing to try to make AI have a better brand and give everybody a stake.

[A]

Well, I just think what is marketing to who? I think it's marketing to Donald Trump. And it's marketing is not marketing to, like, Joe Schmo, is my view.

[C]

I don't think normal people know or care.

[B]

No, Brett, I agree. Brett. I agree.

[D]

I actually think that about the Trump accounts, too. I actually think that the Trump account thing is completely disconnected from society.

[A]

Well, I hope that changes, though. I actually like Trump accounts. I'll say it again.

[D]

No, I understand that you like them. I Like them, too. I actually do question whether or not anybody knows or cares.

[C]

I would love to see the engagement metrics of people who have been to the Trump accounts website or who have read any of this news about the government investing in these companies.

[D]

I do think it's cool that Robin Hood built the app for them. Like, that's kind of cool.

[B]

So, Brit, what would you do both economically and also from a brand perspective? And then we can move on, because we have talked about.

[C]

If you're America.

[B]

Yeah, no, yeah. If you're AI companies wanting to move up and maybe be more popular than Jeffrey Epstein, is there an economic solution to doing that or not?

[C]

I mean, I. An economic solution to doing it. Meaning, like, how do you get more capital in people's hands for using AI more?

[D]

No, she's asking. Purely brand.

[C]

I've heard her say both.

[B]

I'm sorry I'm asking, but. Well, I think let's take the economic first, because I'm inundated with op EDS from people who think they have ways to reform the tax code or reform this or that to get.

[A]

No, we're fucked. We're. We're. It's like, it's really.

[D]

Reform the tax code for what, Jess?

[B]

To share the wealth of AI more broadly across society, in part to change the perception of AI.

[D]

Here's an idea. You already have a pretty amazing business in selling tokens and, you know, like, taking a rake on your tokens. Stop building apps to compete with everyone in your ecosystem and start building a developer ecosystem. That's actually healthy, simple. Nobody wants to do it.

[C]

Well, that's what I was going to say. People hate AI because they're afraid it's going to take their jobs and their opportunity.

[A]

Well, because the bail, because we've been telling them, is going to take their jobs for years now. Like, that's why they're like.

[D]

Then the double whammy is, oh, and by the way, if you build anything on top of our tokens, we're going to watch what you're building and then we're going to directly compete with you and destroy you. And it's really not. It's really not complicated. These businesses are already making so much money.

[A]

No, they're not. They're losing so much money. They're.

[D]

Let's be clear, Sam, they're both making and losing money. Like, they are also making an enormous amount of revenue.

[B]

One is net losing. One appears to be net making.

[A]

The one who needs a government bailout.

[B]

Maybe it is a bailout, but, Dave, let's Pick up on this. Okay, because A, I see what you're saying, but B, all the great platform companies I can think of also have owned and operated apps. Take Apple.

[D]

That's fine. They weren't growing this fast and the revenue curves were not growing like this. Like this happened in under three years.

[B]

How are you going to convince a company to make more money? Especially one that has CapEx estimates in the trillions? How do you convince them to make less money when their capex forecasts?

[D]

I'm not trying to convince them to make less money. I'm saying empower your developer ecosystem to make maximum amount of money.

[A]

It's not enough people to matter.

[D]

I don't agree. Every business on Earth is using these tokens right now.

[A]

Here's my macro narrative is America was very, very blessed for a few hundred years with Terra Nova. And sure we stole it from the Indians, right? And sure, it wasn't quite truly Terra Nova.

[B]

I don't think we're gonna get into Terra Nova in this pod, but here we go.

[A]

No, but this is it. Like, what did we do?

[D]

Sam, speak English. Nobody knows what you're talking about.

[C]

I don't know what Terranova is, but I am part Indian, okay?

[A]

We're 200 years old. We just landed.

[D]

Britt's part Comanche Indian. So if you fuck this up, Sam, you're in real trouble.

[B]

No, she's. He's. He's honoring you, Brit.

[C]

It's already been fucked up, Dave.

[A]

I'm honoring your land, Brit, in a convoluted way.

[B]

Just roll.

[A]

Here's the deal. It's super simple. It's like, America loves capitalism. Why does it love capitalism? Well, we basically have this amazing immigrant pun for 200 years, which said, hey, come hang out over here. Your most driven, most interesting people who want to, like, make lives in themselves. And good news, we did the Louisiana Purchase. We got all this new land for you. Don't worry about the Indians. As long as you have a shovel and can work pretty hard, you can go west and do really well. You know, 20 acres in a mule style, right? And so that was great for a super long time. Then we got industrialized and it worked again. Then in our generation, you want to fast forward. Like, the Internet was a huge boon for us because it was digital Terra Nova, right? That we could colonize, become important, get rich on et cetera. And the problem is, with each successive wave, the number of people, the number of humans you need to dig, who can and share, the wealth goes down. It's like when you have. When you build a railroad, you need a fuckload of people. All these people get paid. When you build Internet companies, you don't need as many people. Fewer people get paid AI you, smaller teams. The reality is, is like you have more wealth but fewer humans who are dealt into it. Right. And that is just like what is happening with technological leverage. And so there is like I'm quite sympathetic to the fact, as much as I love capitalism and I'm hyper pro capitalist, these proposals were like, oh, if only we change the tax code. There's like some massively. I don't think so. I think the only thing you can do is have a real meritocracy and say, look, it's not all going to work out for everyone, but if you work really hard, you're going to have a shot. Right. Is like the upshot. And like that is why I'm so obsessed with meritocracy and its combination to capitalism and like what. And freedom. It's like freedom, meritocracy, capitalism like is. That's the trifecta, right that we have to protect because the world is otherwise going to get more unequal and more. And the reality is when you start chipping in capitalism, you should have a freedom. And people are going to do that if they feel like that. If the game is rigged or unfair. Which is why Sam Altman trying to give 5% of the government to the government for regulatory capture and all this politics is so bad.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Because all of a sudden it makes the game not a fair and open game that at least you can play with rules. It becomes a game of politics where people feel gated out or gated in. And that is like the worst scenario for the long term success of the country.

[B]

You need a free press to have those three things. Just so you know. Yeah.

[A]

Free speech is critical and I think it'd be very hard for anyone to argue. I don't support the concept of a free press. I just think it needs to be, it's for it to be powerful and to be profitable. You can't have a free press on principle. The free press needs to like be a good enough business to defend itself.

[D]

What does this have to do with like these Frontier Labs being good platforms and being companies that share the wealth with their developers like that. That's what I'm like actually trying to get at here, which is that these companies have become enormous faster than any organization in history. Right. And they claim to have altruistic their PBCs. You know, they want to do the Right thing. Keep everyone safe. Why aren't they saying the same thing about their platform partners? Right? Why aren't they actually. Why aren't they actually giving more to their ecosystem so that their ecosystems can participate?

[A]

Any capitalist enterprise that claims to be doing good or have a double bottom line is, like, always going to be deeply suspect, right? Like, that's like, the biggest trick the devil ever pulled.

[D]

Sam, I'm not asking about double bottom line. I'm saying, like, these companies are making enormous amounts of revenue, sure. And they could share a larger percentage of that with their partners, but they're

[B]

not making enormous amount of profits yet. Dave.

[C]

Yeah, I agree with Jessica.

[B]

Their sustainability is their profitability.

[D]

I understand, but, like, the cost of these models, like, everything is moving quickly the other direction.

[A]

Look, I think it goes a little bit back to the thing we've talked about many times on the pod, which is like, look, is everyone a developer or no one a developer? Is everyone a platform partner or is no one a platform partner? Like, from my perspective, the problem is, like, I have all sorts of software running just for me on these stuff. I wouldn't consider myself a platform partner. Like, I wouldn't consider myself a developer on them. I'm literally just like, like, making the I want. And, like, it's really, really hard to see, like, what that ecosystem looks like, because it really does mean that these developers are just consumers, right? And if they're just consumers and, like, how do you deal? Like, what are you gonna deal in everyone? Then you just don't charge them. Like, what does that even mean?

[C]

You're not making any money off of any of these apps yet, are you? Sam? So it's not like they can do like, a profit share or something with you.

[A]

I mean, I make tens of dollars. There are several people have subscribed to my children's podcast that is all AI generated.

[B]

So I. Dave, I'm. I'm really intrigued by your comment. I haven't thought, like, I think it's really interesting about the developer ecosystems. And obviously you're just, like, in the center of that. So no one is a better point of view. My sense is that these companies, even

[D]

if I weren't, this would still be

[A]

my point of view.

[B]

No, I know. I'm not. I'm not. That wasn't meant to say that, like, you have a bone to pick. It was meant to say, like, I think you. You see this in a smart way. My sense is that they're moving in the other direction and working to go even deeper in terms of acquisitions, owned and operated building, you know, to control way more of the software application side.

[D]

I think it's a foolish strategy, but

[B]

I think they're going in a big, I mean nothing that we could obviously confirm, but hearing about a lot of things. So that, that's interesting. Why are they doing that? They think that's where they'll capture the most economic value or it seems to me defensive.

[D]

I think to Sam's point, like, I think they have no idea what to do. And these things do need to make meaningfully more profit in order to fly on the public markets and continue to attract capital, et cetera. However, you can do that two ways. Right? Like we've seen this with companies, I don't know, like there have been many Internet platforms over the years where you've seen both regimes play out, where you have a developer friendly regime and a non developer friendly regime. And I think in the long term, if you can make your developer ecosystem make more money than you do, you are in a much better position than you are taking all of the profit for yourself over the long term. And it's an actual choice.

[A]

Who do you think has like legitimate developer platforms in 2026?

[D]

Apple. Apple.

[A]

Who else?

[C]

Google.

[B]

Google.

[D]

Google.

[A]

Just let's be clear, like what is

[D]

Google developer platform and Android and, and search.

[A]

But they're chipping away. They're taking that away. They're taking that away.

[D]

But people make a lot of money on the other side of search.

[A]

They used to. They used to.

[B]

We should talk about Xbox by the way. Let's return to that. Vivian.

[A]

I mean Meta does this, but it's an ads platform. Like I, I just think it's like, it's an interesting question. People like, they'll talk about.

[D]

I, I don't think you can argue that Meta is a good platform.

[A]

Oh, I think it is for advertisers.

[D]

They take most of the, they take most of the rents. They don't distribute them small business advertisers. Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

It's an interesting question though.

[B]

I think we have pretty good, I mean Google's our best performing ad platform, but Meta is pretty good. So it's our experience.

[C]

Yeah, but ad platforms aren't developer platforms.

[D]

I think we'd have to look at an economic analysis of like both.

[A]

I mean the point is like when it comes to technical platforms that are like they, I mean are, you can kind of talk, you certainly can talk about Apple, but they also take most of the rents off of the App Store. Right. At least used to until they've been fought out of it.

[D]

That's not true.

[A]

They're going down. They're going down.

[B]

It's not technically most of it's less than the majority.

[C]

30%. It's a third.

[B]

It's massive.

[A]

I, but, but no one's going to profits versus revenue. They take a big chunk of those profits.

[D]

People build enormous businesses. Like it's a super healthy developer ecosystem on iOS. Yeah, there's like a lot of amazing businesses.

[A]

Like really? People have apps. What's the biggest truly business built on top of the app store?

[D]

Really Life360 great gaming businesses galore. Like there's like amazing businesses in the Apple developer ecosystem.

[A]

Spotify preexisted the App Store, but predated the App Store.

[D]

Look, I just think you can make a choice, right? Like you can make a choice. I wish that the AI companies would make the choice to empower developers because I think that would be better for the world and better for humanity. Just like keeping these things safe. I think that people would be a lot more excited to participate, right? Like I don't actually think they have to onboard all of these applications. I think they can actually build enormously large businesses by just deeply empowering their developer ecosystems. But it's just a choice. It's hard either way, right? Like you either have to onboard, acquire a bunch of these businesses, compete with everybody.

[A]

There's a good question about business strategy. I don't think that empowering some developers fundamentally changes the political narrative.

[D]

No, but I think these are different things.

[A]

Like yeah, a few people like them.

[B]

Well also, as we've talked about, right, like if you don't empower developers, developers are going to go to all these other alternatives. Right. As well.

[D]

Which is again, like Jess earlier, you said I have a bone to pick. I like don't care anymore.

[B]

No, I said you don't have a bone to pick.

[D]

No, I know, but like I, I legitimately don't care anymore because the availability of amazing open source models is so good and you know, Openclaw is growing right now at like 5 million claws a week. Like we're gonna have a billion claws by the end of the year and the amount of open source activity is just enormous. And so it actually doesn't matter. But I do think that they would be better off if they.

[A]

But this is the point. This is why these are actually distressed clients companies. Dave, this is my point about like OpenAI's political play. We'll see what anthropic does. These are like threatened.

[D]

I agree. Sam. I don't think you're hitting Anthropic hard enough because I think it's equally as distressed if, like, this is actually true.

[A]

They might be, but. They might be. But for now, at least, it feels like OpenAI is the weaker and the more distressed of the two. And that could just be narrative.

[C]

I think this is just a loop. Like I said in the past, pod, this is like, I think it's changing every few months. We're going to see them shift.

[D]

Yeah, but.

[A]

And if that's true, Brit, that means they're all fucked. Like, basically, it means there's no compounding advantage.

[C]

I agree.

[A]

Yeah. Like, that's the question of the year. Is, is there a compounding advantage against. I mean, it's ironic because, like, Mark was all about open source early. Right. And he, I think, is strategically right. It just turns out maybe to not be Meta's open source.

[D]

He should have kept going, but he

[A]

was right thematically and strategically, but he

[D]

should have kept going.

[B]

They could go back to open source now.

[D]

They should go back. I mean, yeah, they should absolutely go back. Like, in my view, Meta should go back to open source, rent their cloud to developers. They should have been in the cloud business all along. We actually considered being in the cloud business back when we launched Facebook platform in 07 and like, they waited way too long. They've got all this inference. Just like, rent it to developers, build an enormous cloud business and ship amazing open source models. Empower developers. Like, it would be great for Meta to do that. Like, it was the right strategy. I don't know why they swift switched.

[B]

Yep, we'll see. I don't. I think they're throwing a lot of things against the wall and I think it's unclear that is, it's unclear what they're going to do. Time will tell. Switching gears a little bit. Who has an Xbox?

[C]

I mean, I feel like we do not have one. I feel like we have every gaming device.

[D]

No, no, we've never had one. We only have Nintendo.

[B]

Sam, do we not have an Xbox? We have.

[C]

No, we have PlayStation.

[D]

No, we don't. We got rid of the PlayStation.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

We briefly had an Xbox because we bought a house from an Apple executive who had the most beautiful rack of every single gaming device in history that we bought.

[D]

That's funny.

[A]

So we did briefly have one, but no, we've never. I've never bought an xbox.

[C]

Wait, you included all of his devices in the house acquisition?

[A]

It was like, so deeply wired into the infrastructure of this house that we had, like, like literally like the most beautiful Apple exec route.

[C]

Things that only happen in Silicon Valley.

[A]

And it had an Xbox built in. But no, we have. I've never bought one. I mean lots of people do. It's a thing people do.

[B]

Well, Xbox has gone through a major restructuring, guys.

[C]

Apparently a lot of people laid off. Right.

[D]

Didn't they restructure it twice? Sarah Bond was running it for a while. She was amazing and she loved.

[B]

Now Asha is running it, who was doing AI and she's like totally overhauled the strategy, jettisoned a lot of studios.

[C]

Why? What's happening? Are people not gaming?

[A]

Are they using the Xboxes to multiply numbers and like putting them in a cloud?

[B]

No, I think basically they just faced obviously more and more competition and in gaming and entertainment and also like in non console based gaming because there's things called the Internet and so forth.

[A]

It's like they're losing the only fans. That's what's really happening.

[C]

Well, and did you know I was reading an article about video gaming and it turns out the most prolific video gamer is a 37 year old man. It used to be like younger, much younger, like kids and teens and now it's 37. Insinuating that video gaming has actually not stayed as popular as it once was with our generation. And the only boom, the only blip of a boom in it was in 2020 because everyone was stuck at home. But even still, like teenagers these days have kind of like found other things.

[A]

What do they do? They're not having sex, they don't play video games.

[C]

I think they're just on social media, they're not drinking, watching YouTube and tick tock.

[D]

It's really not good.

[A]

I will say I really. Dave, you, I gotta give you credit, you mentioned offhand this nex device which is awesome and like we immediately bought it and like it's great.

[B]

So fun.

[A]

It's great.

[D]

Brit, literally we have it with us, we travel with it.

[C]

It's so little. I'm like, why wouldn't we bring it with us?

[A]

We also have a travel with ours. It's the easiest thing to travel with. I literally it's. I don't do this but I also

[B]

explain what it is. Sam, there is some context required when you taping a podcast.

[A]

Is there really? I feel like that we're taping for people who are in the know. We don't care about other people.

[B]

Not, not if you're introducing a new device you just learned of. Fair enough. But it's.

[A]

I didn't Dave, to Explain it. In all honesty, I'll give full credit. This was a complete. Dave More and offhand. And I do my online shopping while we talk and this one was great.

[C]

I should have got an affiliate link.

[D]

Dave Next is like the second coming of, you know, Xbox deserves some credit here.

[A]

Of Kinect. Of Kinect, Of Xbox, of Connect.

[D]

Xbox deserves some credit here because they, you know, they were the ones that started the Kinect with the Kinect thing, which was kind of a response to Multi Touch. Right.

[B]

Where it's like more inputs besides the controller. Right. That's what Connect was.

[D]

Yeah, you could like dance in front of it. And it used, I think lidar or I don't know, some kind of depth sensing in order to get input for the video game. And so Next just kind of took a look at that and said, we can make this even more family friendly.

[A]

Well. And cheap as shit 20 years later.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. It's low cost and the games are really fun because they're multiplayer. I think that's the key thing. And they get you moving. And so it's pretty cool. You can play basketball and tennis and a lot of things that we had on the Wii and Xbox with Kinect and all that kind of stuff. But you just need this one little cheap box and the whole family can play. And it, I think it's cool because it's a video game that gets kids moving, which I think is really actually one of the main things that's the best about it.

[C]

And it's like the size of a Rubik's Cube. You can throw it in your bag.

[A]

Yeah, it's great. I will say my kind of big thing is for years I was looking for like a kid's version of Beat Saber because I think Beat Saber is an amazing game, but I don't want them in VR. And I also think the number one problem with Beat Saber is like, you go to play it and you disappear into the metaverse to play. But it's a great game. And so like they basically have like non VR multiplayer Beat Saber, which is just like, that's all I need.

[B]

It's really wild. Kids become like, they master it so fast. Like, what's going on? Okay, that's a good rack.

[D]

You know, there's some amazing people working on NEX as well. Some great, you know, great, great product designers.

[A]

But Dave, are they building an ecosystem or just that? Are they building an ecosystem?

[B]

Oh my God, Sam, you're something.

[D]

I think they are actually.

[A]

They're.

[D]

They've got a lot of great Games,

[A]

but are they taking too much of the profits? I'm kidding. I'm just fucking with you.

[D]

You know who's involved? There was Alex Wu, who was on the original Facebook product design team. Like, he's one of the founders. So props to Alex Wu. And he was a. I always loved working with him.

[B]

Great comedy just to wrap Xbox. So the other question is whether Microsoft will eventually sell Xbox.

[A]

What do you guys who the open air, of course.

[C]

There's like two people to sell it to ea.

[D]

I don't know.

[C]

I know that's like one of the two.

[B]

I mean, to other people.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, sell it to one of the gaming companies.

[B]

Like, Microsoft is sort of the only of the big tech stocks that is like down. Like, the investors are not happy with the strategy over there. There are a lot of big questions.

[A]

The narrative shift on Microsoft in the last year is like, wild to me. They went from like, they could do no wrong to like, they're the worst. I just love. We really do just trade narratives and not reality. It's just wild to me to like, come to this. This is my like.

[D]

Yeah, because it's an enormously huge business.

[B]

At some point SpaceX has come back down to earth. Kind of. It's kind of. Kind of.

[A]

Look, I just think it's a fascinating. I'm very cynical. But this is kind of my like 2026 takeaway is just like extreme nihilism where, like all we're doing is trading narratives. And the interesting thing is, like, it's only getting more intense as the children, like, get obsessed with this like, scared, permanent underclass thing where they're just so transactional. Right. Like, and like everyone's just like the, like always. The level of cynicism is wildly high right now, from my view, which is kind of an interesting match with all

[C]

this across everything or what I think

[A]

in like, especially youth culture. But like a lot of what's going. It's like this crazy moment where Silicon Valley. Valley is like, so gaga optimistic. But then there's like extreme cynicism, right? About the markets and value and politics and everything. It's like. And it's a really weird disconnect.

[D]

I mean, Sam, in a weird way. Not in a weird way, but the stuff you were working on with your Harvard project, was it two years ago now? More was kind of a predecessor to this in the.

[A]

In the broader extreme nihilism.

[D]

Well, just the, the sort of the message that was coming out of that and what the work you've done to try to reform you know, the education environment there, like that seems to have broadly sort of distributed across society now.

[A]

Yes, I mean, I think, look, I was talking to one of our founders who works on our merit first testing platform and like, it is interesting how that like, let's just drive hard on meritocracy and like the best people should have IT open competition, etc. Went from being kind of fringy to like completely mainstream is part. I think we just had this like separation. We had like mandami, nihilism, socialism and then we have like a bunch of people that are in the minority numerically but maybe not in terms of wealth and power who are just like, no, like we want freedom and capitalism and meritocracy. Like that's the trifecta. And so I just think the world's very split and that's what's making it super interesting. History says we're all about to get guillotined, but we'll find out why. Because like the minority of the people who like have the money and people are mad and that's what happens. I don't think it will actually get guillotined instead because like Foucault, we've moved on.

[D]

But again, aren't you trying to figure out if that's actually true with Vox Americanus?

[A]

Yes, this is my big thing. Vox Americana has been very fascinating. It's going well. By the way, I now have the Vox Americanus app. It's great.

[B]

Did you let me unsubscribe from post notifications yet? Because I getting every time anyone comments on any post and I hate to say but you're violating some laws here.

[A]

No, I'm not. No, I'm not. It's good growth work.

[D]

That's good growth work.

[B]

You need an unsubscribe. You need one.

[D]

That's respectable growth work. Just.

[A]

No, no, no, no. To be clear, you don't need to unsubscribe, you need a cancel account which we have. So if you want out, you're welcome to be out. Now I will say Jessica did give me my only negative user feedback which about notifications I've gotten so far and I did immediately actually create a notification center so you can unsubscribe from those post notifications.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you, Claude.

[A]

But it's actually quite, quite a bit of Claude work. Claude was like, ah, this is going to be a lot of work.

[C]

Ms. Fable on that.

[A]

Now here's the funny thing guys. This is like my personal take on this AI stuff in Fable. Pretty Smith's getting used to this stuff. They're a bore, but look pretty sophisticated. I don't even care. Like, I actually literally don't know what cloud I'm using. I'm sure it's fine.

[C]

Well, I think they default. Make it fable so that you spend the most money.

[D]

I think this is actually an important take right now. And Peter And I at OpenClaw talk about this a lot, which is that these things, like, at 5, you know, whatever, 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, these things are all so good that the only thing holding you back now is attention and, like, time and creativity. Like, you don't need. Like, it's already so powerful that it doesn't really matter.

[A]

We're so past. Yeah. So for me, it's like, people like, what are you using? Like, I honestly don't care. Which means these companies are all fucked.

[C]

Can I just say I'm a little bit bored.

[D]

Hey, Sam, are these companies fucked?

[A]

So fucked. But, like, they're great. I love using them. And like. And for me, like, the reality is. I couldn't agree more, Dave. It's like, like, it's wild to me how quickly and well you can build stuff.

[D]

It's only creativity now.

[A]

Well, no, it's, it's, it's also attention. It's also attention.

[C]

I think people are going to tap out a little bit. Like, I feel like here's what's happening. I was thinking about.

[D]

Brit had a hot take on this.

[C]

Well, I'm just a little bit bored of AI right now, and I wonder if the people will agree with me.

[B]

Guys, short, short the sector, okay?

[C]

I've got like, all my agents in place. I have cron jobs that run daily. I do a bunch of things with AI, like on a regular bas. But my, my, like, creative instinct to just want to like, vibe away all day long, like I had three months ago is not really there as much anymore. Like, and it's just not as novel. Like, when I do, it's just like,

[D]

why do you think that is?

[C]

I just feel like it was so interesting and cool and all the. I had these, like, all these ideas that I had always wanted to do and I like, built them all and now, like, one will come up every now and it's fine. And we're like, we're planning a friend trip in August and I'm like, okay, I'll just make the website and like, automate a bunch of shit to, like,

[B]

plan it all and make websites for your friend trip.

[C]

Yes, yes. Because we need to get RSVPs and there's activities.

[B]

I've never been on a friend trip with you where you've made a website now I'm feeling.

[D]

It's a new thing, Jess. It just started a few weeks ago. Trust me, one will end up in your inbox. Trust me.

[C]

Part of it is that, like, I think I've, like, automated a bunch of things and I don't need automate that much more. Part of it's like everything feels like slightly, slightly better. There's a slightly better model, there's a new agent messenger. There's a new what? There's like so many things that are, like, incremental. And I'm like, I don't care. It's fine because it's already good. And then part of it's like, I don't know, the like, novelty of all that creative stuff is just worn off a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, short creativity. We're done with creativity.

[C]

I'm not short creativity.

[D]

Brit Morin is short creativity.

[B]

No, she's not. She's saying the opposite. She's saying she's not engaged.

[D]

She's saying that, like, this is just an uncreative. It's an uncreative medium.

[C]

I'm just saying it's evolutionary, not revolutionary at this point. It's linear, not exponential.

[B]

So what's the next thing?

[D]

So this actually goes to something that I've been thinking about a lot. I've been hearing a lot of fellow GPs that are working on new funds talking to me about this idea of that they're going to, they're going to make their new fund about the post AGI world.

[B]

Oh, God, yes.

[D]

And that, that's their whole thesis. And if Britt's right that we're in an evolutionary moment and there's no revolutionary thing coming, then that means that AGI is not here and it's not coming for a while. And so if you're building your strategy around this, it might not be the best idea.

[C]

Well, I think a lot of people are talking about physical AI now. Like, we've kind of, like, gotten to, like, the best we can do in digital AI. Sure, we're going to make it better a little bit, prices are going to drop, blah, blah, blah. But, like, now how do we automate the world around us? And like, how do we get data across, like, every offline industry, and then figure out how to build robots and automate systems and fine, that might be interesting. Maybe that, that's the revolution. I don't know.

[A]

I think it's just like we should just buy sports teams and, you know, real estate.

[B]

That's what Josh Kushner is doing. He's buying more sports teams.

[A]

I know. I'm very well aware of that. I mean, that's. That's the irony, right? Like, this is exactly what Josh is doing.

[D]

I like, isn't it only sports teams? Because it's the only thing that causes people to be live. Like, how fun is the World cup been, by the way?

[C]

I'm so into the World cup, you guys.

[D]

I'm like, I'm shockingly into it.

[B]

We're going to. We're very excited tomorrow.

[D]

I'm jealous.

[B]

Concerts, too. Benson Boone's on tour again, everybody. I would just like everyone to know

[C]

that I have 10 concerts booked for the rest of the year. Don't worry.

[A]

10.

[B]

What are you looking forward to? Sam is so not interested in concerts. Brit, I need to go with you.

[C]

Well, we're like country and pop and rock people, so. Garth Brooks just announced the tour today. That's happening. We've got Post Malone, Chris Stapleton, Teddy Swims, the Chicks, Dan and Shay. There's some bands you probably don't know, but, yeah, a lot of. Lot of concerts.

[D]

I'm excited to see Teddy Swims again. We saw Teddy Swims at Stagecoach, and he was amazing. He's, like, truly great in person.

[C]

Yeah. Live music, sporting events, real estate. I'd love to see how the World cup fan viewership and data from this World cup is different than the last one for Americans specifically, minus the fact that we hosted.

[A]

That's the key. Like, that is the key. Like, that's. You just explained the entire thing.

[D]

Explain what? That we hosted.

[C]

We hosted. So obviously we're going to more events, but does that also make us more interested?

[D]

I think so, because it's like. It's in all the stadiums that people are used to watching NFL games. Like, it. It, like, carries that kind of vibe. Right?

[B]

Renamed, though. Renamed.

[D]

Yeah, it carries the vibe of college football. NFL. Like, all these stadiums are stadiums that are, like, beloved by Americans. Right. And so I think that matters also.

[B]

Isn't soccer just getting more popular too slowly?

[C]

Very, very, very slowly. No. I don't know. I just think to your point, like, sporting events, sporting leagues, like, all of these offline communal activities are going to keep growing and growing. So I'm long, long offline.

[B]

Well, we should. We should make a nod to the Wimbledon also happening. Some good storylines there.

[C]

The.

[B]

A wild card is in the semifinals. Arthur Ferry, just so you know, which is, like, kind of wild, doesn't usually happen. And. Yeah. Any other parting thoughts before we let the people go back to their moment of non AI conversation? Or probably more AI?

[C]

I just want to lick the cookie. On one. On one. Pcc Pop Culture Corner.

[B]

Lick it, Brit.

[C]

I called that Taylor Swift wedding strategy from day one. That's all I'm going to say. She.

[B]

She had. She didn't have all her friends perform. She had like two of her friends perform and then they did.

[C]

No. You don't know what happened.

[B]

That's true. I don't know.

[D]

Then stay tuned.

[C]

People performed and I was right.

[B]

Stay tuned.

[C]

And I was right without having insider info. And then I got insider info to confirm that I was right.

[B]

Well, but then there was the karaoke part.

[C]

Yes, but a lot of that was planned.

[B]

No, of course it was planned. Of course it is.

[C]

So it wasn't just random like, let's do karaoke.

[D]

Look, I have a hot take. I have a hot take. That's unrelated to inside info, which is,

[B]

am I going to watch this wedding on a streaming platform?

[C]

No. Documentary.

[B]

When am I getting photos of the dress?

[C]

I think within the next 72 hours. Within a week of the wedding.

[D]

I do think that there is something going on with Madison Square Garden group. That's my real theory. That's my like, hot take. Is that there's a. Dave thinks Taylor

[C]

is going to announce a Sphere residency.

[D]

Yeah, I think there's going to be a huge Sphere residency.

[B]

I read a headline saying that the Sphere and MSG are competing.

[D]

They're the same thing. The Sphere is owned by msg.

[B]

Oh, well, the two venues are. But that it could be a billion dollar residency.

[C]

Don't we know people there?

[B]

I mean, it's all fake news.

[C]

Can't we call our person that we know? Can we have a guest on the pod next week?

[B]

We can add that to our list. At fascinating times. We should thank. Thank the dear listeners for sticking with us. You got the full quad here.

[A]

It's like, we can't thank sponsors, so we have to thank the listeners.

[B]

Guys, we can thank our sponsors. We have decided not to monetize this podcast for some insane reason.

[C]

We should rethink that, by the way,

[B]

capitalists that we are.

[D]

Yeah, let's. Let's go. Let's actually turn over a new leaf after fourth of July. We're going to go full capitalist this fall.

[A]

I think we should call the labs and see if they'll sponsor us.

[B]

You know, I don't think they will. I don't think they will. We're gonna have to go with, like, beverages, creatine, peptides, msd.

[A]

Oh, yeah, guys. Peptides.

[D]

Peptides.

[A]

I'm now I. I started the peptides.

[C]

Wait, I have a lot of peptides. Questions? Can we do a special episode on peptides? We'll.

[D]

We'll take money from Matt Mazzio's peptide company.

[C]

Can we have Matt on as a guest next week and talk about peptides?

[A]

Oh, he would love that. He'll just show us his arm.

[C]

I am a total noob. I need to know.

[D]

All right, Mazio, we're coming for you.

[A]

I'll shoot some peptides live on air.

[B]

I've lost control. I'm trying to end the episode. Dear listener.

[C]

Okay, wrap it up.

[B]

We will wrap it up. We'll take next week planning to the thread.

[A]

Next episode is all about peptides.

[B]

And if Sam looks extra glowy, we'll know why. Thank you. Be safe. This is not an endorsement of peptides. We are not doctors or safety. And have a great week. We'll see you back here next week for another episode of More or less.

[C]

Bye.

[D]

See you later.

[C]

If you enjoyed this show, please leave us a virtual high five by rating it and reviewing it on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. Find more information about each episode in the show notes and follow us on social media by searching for oreorless avemorin at lesson at J Lesson. And as for me, I'm at Brit. See you guys next time.