More or Less – March 6, 2026

Episode: Fire Sam Altman, The End of Software Engineers, and Why AI Is All Narrative
Hosts: Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, Sam Lessin

Episode Overview

This week’s episode dives into the evolving drama in the AI sector, with particular scrutiny of the OpenAI vs. Anthropic battle and the “Fire Sam Altman” uproar. The longtime friends dissect the narrative wars powering AI companies, the business model shake-up of Silicon Valley, and whether the role of software engineers is on the verge of extinction. They also touch on Apple’s latest AI hardware moves, workforce reductions attributed to "AI productivity," economic uncertainty, and the global AI power struggle—especially between the US and China. Finally, the hosts get candid about the second wave of agent-based AI and the business/investment opportunities that might still exist.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The OpenAI vs. Anthropic War & #FireSamAltman Movement

Timestamps: 02:36–07:31

• Jessica explains Anthropic’s CEO Dario’s rift with the US Department of Defense and Sam Altman. Dario’s leaked 1,600-word Slack memo blames Sam Altman for undermining Anthropic’s standing and details the cultural/employee wars heating up between AI giants.
• Brit points out “Quit GPT” and “Fire Sam” trends are causing spikes in ChatGPT uninstalls (up 295%) while Anthropic’s revenue has doubled to $19B ARR.
• Sam: “They’re trying desperately to stay in the news cycle when other stuff is going on.”
• Dave frames the consumer rebellion as a marketing moment for Anthropic, calling it a classic “face vs. heel” dynamic: “Anthropic is the principled actor standing up against ‘the man’, while OpenAI is the evil heel.” (05:29)
• Consensus: Viral uproars (e.g., #DeleteUber) often reverse or net benefit brands in the long run.

2. The Economics of AI: Business Models, IPOs, and Enterprise Skepticism

Timestamps: 07:58–09:34

• Jessica relays skepticism among investors about real enterprise ARR numbers for AI, suggesting unsustainable seat-based pricing models. Companies are likely to move to usage/outcome-driven models as they mature.
• Sam: “With everything with AI, you’re speed-running all of history all over again.” (08:57)
• The group reiterates the cyclic nature and low-margin aspect of general AI businesses.
• Sam: “I think it’s a terrible business...there’s just no defensibility to any of it.”

3. AI-Created Persona Pods & Automation Experimentation

Timestamps: 09:34–15:56

• Sam has automated the More or Less podcast using AI: personalized bots simulate the hosts’ personalities/voices; the system creates new podcast episodes, real-time chatbots, and even an automated "Flatterbot."
  • Sam: “It really is...just like Roblox for adults. I’ve built like six apps this week.” (10:23)
  • Brit: “Could I take an archive of [Taylor Swift’s] life, have AI sum it up into 13 episodes?”
  • Jessica evaluates the AI: “It also got the tone of what we all talk about...our personalities. So I appreciated what you did this week, Sam.”
• Sam’s hot take: All content becomes cheap and valueless as automation becomes trivial: “There’s no value in any of it because it’s way too easy to make.” (16:16)

4. The Death of the Software Engineer – Real or Hype?

Timestamps: 21:37–32:36

• The crew debates the tangible impact of AI on tech employment, especially software engineers:
  • Brit notes massive workforce reductions (Block/Square, Microsoft, Salesforce, HubSpot) attributed to “AI productivity.”
  • Sam: “It’s a cover story, but it’s also true...AI, like why would you hire most people?” (22:59)
• Classic Argument:
  • Brit/Sam: Half of Bay Area software engineers will NOT have jobs in 3 years.
  • Dave: Disagrees; believes software creation will only increase, if by different people.
  • Sam: “Just because there’s more writing doesn’t mean you have more scribes...just because there’s more calculating doesn’t mean you have more calculators.” (24:31)
  • Brit: “Think about it, they [engineers] were running around these places like kings. Anything to get the engineers happy...Now you’re saying that stopped?”
  • Dave: “That’s still going on— for the best of the best, but not for all.” (29:41)
• Sam’s analysis of silence from engineers: Admitting fear of automation is tantamount to admitting mediocrity. “To admit that you are worried about software taking your job as a software builder is to effectively say that you are a bad software engineer.” (27:09; see also 00:00)

5. Apple’s Edge AI Play

Timestamps: 19:28–21:37

• Apple launches new AI-enabled MacBooks with local inference capability, bypassing cloud compute costs.
• Dave: “Apple is focusing on inference at the edge...their unique advantage.”
• Sam: “Everyone’s like, we’re going to spend $100 billion on infrastructure. And Apple’s like, you know who is going to spend on infrastructure? Our customers.” (20:49)
• Consensus: Apple’s business model (selling powerful devices, not cloud subscriptions) stands out in the AI gold rush.

6. Peak AI Bubble & Recession Warnings

Timestamps: 33:08–40:39

• Jessica highlights VC Josh Wolf’s founder memo declaring “peak AI” and predicting a tech downturn due to economic headwinds, political risk (e.g., data center moratoriums), and labor market shifts.
• The group debates whether the bubble is about to pop or if this is just another hype cycle.
  • Sam: “There’s like this huge narrative collusion around like our only way out is up through AI and maybe space...What breaks that narrative cycle?” (38:37)

7. China, Open Source, and the Global AI Stack

Timestamps: 40:39–47:46

• Hosts discuss China’s open source AI surge. Lower-quality but open models (e.g., Kimi) are catching up due to longer “energy budgets.”
  • Dave: “If you give a lower quality model a longer energy budget, does it even matter if you’re operating on the better model?”
• Export controls may not matter much if China and others dominate on energy cost and open source scale.
• Sam: “The closed world is clearly the American world...But, ...the Android of AI is open source Chinese shit.” (45:09)
• Brit/Dave: China is running the “meta strategy” – give away open source to catch up in distribution.

8. Agentic AIs & The Next Innovation Wave

Timestamps: 47:46–49:30

• Brit: “We’re in the second wave. AGI has been the name of the game...what does this mean on a faster time horizon?”
• Dave: “The second wave and personal AI or agents...Agents might actually be the website of this era. And the browser hasn’t been built yet.” (49:08)
• Still wide open: agent-based models, memory, protocols, standards for AIs talking to AIs.

9. Fun Wrap-Up: David’s Protein Ice Cream & Venture Life

Timestamps: 49:43–51:14

• A lighthearted segment announces David’s protein bar pivoting into high-protein ice cream.
• Sam jokes: “I’m clearly going to eat a lot whether it makes you sicker or not...I’m going to eat it and it might kill me.” (50:23)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Sam Lessin [00:00]: “To admit that you are worried about software taking your job as a software builder is to effectively say that you are a bad software engineer.”
• Dave Morin [05:29]: “Anthropic is the principled actor...doing the right thing, standing up against the man. And OpenAI is the evil heel. This is the ultimate marketing moment for them.”
• Brit Morin [24:41]: “Seems like the product managers are the big winners here.”
• Sam Lessin [16:16]: “There’s no value in any of it because it’s way too easy to make.”
• Dave Morin [49:08]: “Agents might actually be the website of this era. And the browser hasn’t been built yet.”
• Sam Lessin [20:49]: “Apple’s like, you know who’s going to spend on infrastructure? Our customers. We don’t have to pay on it. That’s pretty good.”
• Sam Lessin [45:09]: “The world becomes US is Apple and Claude code and expensive shit. And like the Android of AI is open source Chinese shit.”

Thematic Summary

• Narrative vs. Reality: Much of the momentum (and valuation) in AI is driven by narrative—media wars, consumer drama, and self-reinforcing hype cycles. The crew is skeptical about long-term defensibility and value.
• Automating the Automators: AI is so easy to deploy that literally anyone—including the hosts—can spin up bots that mimic personalities or generate entire media properties. The value of originality and even technical skill may be eroding, and traditional “job descriptions” are obsolete.
• Software Engineering’s End? The group is divided: Is software engineering as a career doomed, or simply about to evolve? There's consensus that “code is no longer the moat”—future jobs may not resemble today’s.
• The Next Big Wave: Agent-based AIs and “personal AI” are emerging—but the infrastructure and standards are missing. Massive, uncharted opportunity remains.
• Global Power Struggle: Open-source AI, particularly out of China, and energy economics may disrupt American supremacy in AI faster than many expect.

Key Segments

• [02:36–07:31] OpenAI v Anthropic, Dario’s memo, Fire Sam Altman trend, and marketing spin
• [07:58–09:34] AI business model skepticism, ARR, and historic parallels
• [09:34–16:28] AI-generated podcasts, bots, the value of content, and the automation of personas
• [19:28–21:37] Apple’s local inference strategy and business model discussion
• [21:37–32:36] Workforce reductions, fate of software engineers, silence and shame in tech
• [33:08–40:39] Peak AI bubble, Wolf’s memo, economic warning signs
• [40:39–47:46] China’s open source play, AI commodification, global competition
• [47:46–49:30] Agent-based AI, new wave of opportunity, lack of standards
• [49:43–51:14] Protein ice cream, light closing banter

Final Thought

Anyone following Silicon Valley’s transformation, and the AI hype vs. reality debate, will find this episode a nuanced, lively, and occasionally self-deprecating romp through the industry’s contradictions and emerging truths.