The New Startup Stack: One Founder + Agents | Henrik Werdelin (Audos) and Ben Broca (Polsia)

Summary

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More or Less: The New Startup Stack—One Founder + Agents

Guests: Henrik Werdelin (Audos), Ben Broca (Pulsea)
Hosts: Brit Morin, Jessica Lessin (with Dave Morin and Sam Lessin referenced)
Date: March 27, 2026

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Overview

This episode tackles one of the most provocative trends in startups: the rise of the "one-person company" powered by AI agents, dubbed “Donkeycorns”—founders who leverage AI to scale businesses solo. Guests Henrik Werdelin (Audos) and Ben Broca (Pulsea) share ground-level insights from building platforms that allow individuals to launch, operate, and scale companies almost entirely through AI.

The conversation explores the mechanics, philosophy, and societal implications of AI-run businesses, including defensibility, human touch versus automation, the economics of agent-powered startups, and what barriers or opportunities remain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Solo, AI-Powered Startup: Defining the Donkeycorn

• What is a "Donkeycorn"?

  • Henrik: A "donkeycorn" is a solo founder company (“grinds like a mule, but piles like a unicorn”)—enabled by AI to have high leverage and potentially millions in revenue. (03:54)

• Democratizing Entrepreneurship

  • Henrik’s vision: Enable people with domain expertise or meaningful customer insights to build products for their communities with help from AI, regardless of prior coding or business experience. (04:23)
  • "The dream is to democratize entrepreneurship so that we can get a new class of everyday entrepreneurs out there that could take their relationship with a specific customer group and then use AI to build a startup." —Henrik (04:23)

• Platforms in Practice

  • Audos: Assists users from ideation to launching and financing, with AI-generated products, marketing, and even funding pathways. Focus is on “relationship capital”—founders with authentic ties to their customer niche.
  • Pulsea: Ben built it as a true one-man effort (aside from agents). The goal is operationalizing companies with as few humans as possible—"the fastest way to start a company is just one person.” (06:32)

• AI as Co-founder/Operator

  • AI handles 80-90% of business tasks. Example: While Ben used to wake up repeatedly at night to check his platform, his agents now manage these operational pains. (08:15)

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2. AGI, Hype, and Humanity’s Role

• Is AGI Here?

  • Ben provocatively claims “AGI is here,” at least in a practical sense for founders—even if it’s slightly exaggerated for “marketing to wake people up.” (08:53)
  • Limitations of AI today are infrastructural and societal (“the infrastructure of the Internet’s not meant for agents”), not strictly technical. (10:00)

• What Can’t AI Do?

  • Marketing, brand intuition, and deep customer empathy remain human—AI is “ready to execute on the grunt work of the operations,” but not “understanding what people want and the subtleties of what moves people." (11:50)
  • Memorable analogy: “If you create a thousand things, probably have a couple… that are great. Make a billion new things and hundreds of thousands of amazing things emerge.” —Ben (21:23)

• Human Touch as Differentiator

  • Henrik recounts wild initial experiments with full automation (e.g., AI creating landing pages for unsanctioned ideas like “fecal transplants from Olympians”), discovers human presence is crucial for business success and founder-customer fit. (14:25)
  • "What we got obsessed about was that you need a human in the loop, you need a relationship. A customer-founder fit." —Henrik (14:52)

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3. Defensibility, Competition, and the New Economy

• Are Agent Platforms Defensible?

  • Brit/Sam’s “VC corner”: If agents can build anything, what’s the moat? Both guests see NETWORK effects as keys:
    • For Pulsea, the aim is to become more than a tool—building an economic ecosystem: founders, investors (even small, nontraditional investors), liquidity, and secondary markets. (18:17)
    • Henrik: Relationship capital—the depth, density, and durability of authentic connections between founder and audience—is vital and hard to copy. (45:44)

• Commoditization Risks

  • Jessica draws parallels to the “democratization” of content (Substack/blogs), where a few break out and most do not. Why is this different in AI? (21:23)
  • Ben responds that agent-powered entrepreneurship scales economic actors in society—more people create, making the economy larger and more diverse, even if not everyone “wins big.” (21:23–23:34)

• Abundance or Overload?

  • What if everyone tells AI agents to build every possible business—the opportunities “collapse”? (24:12)
  • Henrik sees hope in narrowing the founder gap (those who wish to build vs. those with means)—AI lowers barriers meaningfully for intent-rich, domain-aware people. (24:56)

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4. Practicalities: Agent Use, Etiquette & User Experience

• Agent Interactions in Life

  • Ben uses agents even for investor relations—Brit receives fundraising emails “from Ben” that are actually his AI. Agents handle outreach, answers, negotiations. (31:46)
  • Brit is experimenting with an AI-powered “spiritual teacher marketplace,” reflecting on whether AI-based outreach will be accepted by recipients (psychics, astrologers) and the need for new “bot etiquette.” (34:12)

• Humans Still Crave Humans

  • Henrik’s experience with Barkbox: as agent-generated “slop” rises, emotional, human-to-human experiences are newly valued—"people increasingly, when they don't want a mechanical answer, want emotional, human-to-human interaction." (36:36)
  • Both guests are actively designing support/community spaces for founder loneliness amid solo entrepreneurship.

• Agent Use in Personal Routines

  • Henrik asks agents not to spoon-feed a single solution, but to preserve his “brain gym”: “Don’t give me one solution, give me three to force a choice.” (47:04)
  • Agents schedule reminders for sleep, cognitive health, and task discipline. (48:00)

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5. AI Models and the Platform Wars

• Commoditization & Speed

  • “Everything is copyable much faster… The only moat is speed.” —Ben on model competition. (44:21)
  • Model companies have a short window of lead before others catch up; constant deployment (new capabilities, RL from customer data) is crucial.

• Multi-Model Future

  • Both Audos and Pulsea use multiple models; swap in/out as needed for subtasks (e.g., Google for video, others for chat/strategy). (46:32)
  • Open-source models seen as inevitable to drive down costs, as shown by recent developments with players like Cursor’s Composer 2. (41:47)

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6. Zooming Out: What Kind of Future?

• Will the Web as We Know It Persist?

  • Both see hybrid agent-to-agent and human interfaces ahead. Websites as static entities may fade, but visualization and UI matter for some tasks. (27:55)
  • For many products, 99% of company can be offline, with AI handling logistics in the background. (29:02)

• Offline is Luxury; Agency is Key

  • Offline, human-crafted experiences (like handwritten note cards) are gaining prestige in contrast to universal automation. (13:45)

• A Productive but Exhausting Era

  • “This is the best founding era you’ve ever been in?”—Brit
    • “I think so.” —Henrik (49:33)
    • Ben: “It’s the most productive time to build, but everyone’s more productive… also exhausting. Productivity and joy are two different things.” (49:41–50:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Human Judgment vs. AI Judgment:
  "AI is not good at really knowing what people want and really understanding the subtleties of what moves people. It may get there… but when it does, humans will change what they value."
  – Ben (11:50)

• On Defensibility:
  “Everything is copyable much faster… The only moat is speed.”
  – Ben (44:21)

• On Founder Loneliness:
  “[Solo founders] do like the agents, but they’re also quite lonely. So we’re trying to figure out exactly where is that balance between being mechanical and efficient, but also kind of having that human touch.”
  – Henrik (36:41)

• On Industry Change:
  “I think this is the best founding era you’ve ever been in.”
  – Brit (49:30)
  “I think so.”
  – Henrik (49:33)

• On Society’s Arc:
  “Relationship capital—the depth, density, and durability of authentic connections between founder and audience—is vital and hard to copy.”
  – Henrik (45:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:54 | Henrik defines “donkeycorns”—solo founders with AI | | 04:23 | Democratizing entrepreneurship with agents (Henrik) | | 06:32 | Ben on true solo entrepreneurship and AGI as co-founder | | 08:53–10:00 | Is AGI here? What are the real limitations? (Ben) | | 14:25 | AI creating outlandish businesses; human in the loop is essential (Henrik) | | 18:11–19:56 | Building an economic ecosystem & network effects, not just tools (Ben) | | 21:23 | Jessica challenges: Will AI commoditize entrepreneurship like content? | | 24:56 | The “intent gap”—most want to start businesses, few do; AI closes that gap (Henrik) | | 31:46 | Ben’s agents handle investor relations; practical uses of AI in daily business | | 36:41 | Human touch and founder loneliness amid automation | | 44:21 | On defensibility—speed as the only moat (Ben) | | 47:04 | Using agents for self-management and cognitive health (Henrik) | | 49:33–50:48 | Is this the best or most exhausting tech founding era? (Henrik & Ben) |

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Conclusion

This episode offers a front-row seat to the rapid evolution of the startup ecosystem, where AI agents enable unheard-of leverage for solo founders and millions of new entrepreneurs. The guests’ overlapping and divergent philosophies underscore a world in creative flux: part gold rush, part existential rethink. Human empathy, “relationship capital,” and community persist as critical forces even as the grunt work becomes seamless and automated.

Listeners are left with foundational questions: Will a million make a million? Does humanity remain the ultimate moat? Will personal agency or the onrush of “AGI” define the next economic era?

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Recommended:

• Explore Audos.com and Pulsea.com
• Read Henrik Werdelin’s new book, Me, My Customer, and AI

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For more, listen to future episodes at moreorlesspod.com.

Transcript

[A]

Like, I think Entropic recently is ripping. They are, like, just dropping new products and new capabilities so fast, and that's what makes them win. Not that because they're the model companies, because they are just in this flywheel. OpenAI needs to catch up on that, realizing, okay, that's not trying to do a social network compete with Facebook. Let's actually go and just do the pragmatic things first.

[B]

And a health product and a shopping product and a hardware device. They're still doing advertising.

[C]

But the other thing is this relationship capital, like humans understand humans best. And I do think, can there be a founder customer fit where they understand the customer at a level where they can almost predict the problems that they're gonna have?

[B]

More or less easy no.

[D]

Or easy yes.

[B]

We'll debate the text.

[D]

That's best when we get more or less. Dave and grit plus salmon. Jesse put it all right to the test.

[B]

More or less. Why, hello, and welcome to a very special more or less. Brit and Jess are in charge. Buckle up, folks.

[D]

How it should be, how it is, actually, let's. Let's not lie.

[B]

We're under no illusions how this. This show operates, but this week, we actually have two very, very special guests. So I'm going to turn it over to Brit, who, by the way, her hair looks great. Everybody, check out the video. It's. It's a special taping. But who do we have with us in the. I should say hot seats, because we're. We're very gentle interviewers, but, you know,

[D]

you know, we're missing our husbands, Dave and Sam.

[B]

Are we. Are we missing. Should we talk about that?

[D]

Frankly, we're not missing our husband having a great week. I get to go to bed on time. I get to watch whatever I want at the end of the night, like, amen. It's pretty special. Yeah. And, you know, we thought to ourselves, like. Well, we do like having camaraderie on the show. I mean, as much as Jess and I could chat for an hour, I'm sure it'd be better to have some different points of view. So we found two other gentlemen to join us today, both of whom are near and dear to my heart and both of whom are building some wildly exciting things in the world of solo entrepreneurship. AI running your company, the future of the Internet, and so much more. And so today we have Henrik Werdelin, who's the founder of Autos a U D O s dot com. I do have some people wondering if it's a car manufacturing company. And Henrik is someone that I've known for 20 years now. He is a serial entrepreneur himself. Has built things like Bark, which he took public and through a studio he ran.

[B]

Wasn't it Bark Box? Was that a rebrand?

[D]

Started as Bark Box.

[B]

Okay, well, I think people might know it as Barkbox, so we have to give it.

[D]

Started as Barkbox in the Box era. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I see. And then you drop the box. Got it.

[C]

It was when Snapchat was not Snap.

[B]

I got it. Okay.

[D]

Yes. Anyways, has has built and scaled so many companies in his life, and I think is at the epitome of, like, what he does best, which is helping other people build companies. And then we have our friend Ben Broka, who is the founder and CEO of Pulsea.com which has gotten a lot of press lately for helping people build the AI that runs your. Your company. Ben was actually formerly at Cloud Kitchens, worked with, you know, Uber founder Travis Kalanick for a while, and then ran a company called Gift Shop, and now is doing this. So both of these gentlemen are doing incredible things. And again, thinking about the world in which we might be living very soon, where there are maybe millions of donkey corns as. As Henrik likes to call it, single person companies making millions of dollars. Yeah, we rebranding it.

[C]

They grind like mules, but they pile like unicorns.

[B]

Oh, my God, guys, I'm already confused. This episode is going to blow my mind. Okay, I'm paying, I'm taking notes.

[D]

All right, all right, all right. So, so basically what I'm so excited about is, like, this space in general, right? And I guess, Henrik, we'll start with you. Like, you spent 15 years running a venture studio building all kinds of companies. What made you think that now you could help other people build and scale hundreds of thousands, if not millions of companies all by themselves?

[C]

Well, I think, you know, as you mentioned, we spend a lot of time trying to figure out how do we help somebody go from nothing to something? And when OpenAI came around, we were kind of, well, can we atomize all this process that we've built and can we create agents that can help people do that? So we spent quite a few years now trying to make that happen. And I think really the dream is to democratize entrepreneurship so that we can get a new class of everyday entrepreneurs out there that could take their relationship with a specific customer group and then use a. To build an AI startup for them.

[B]

And so this is like an agent builds a company for you.

[C]

Yes. So, you know, with our platform, people come in, they might not even have an idea. It helps come up with ideas, help them build the product, the landing page, help them connect with customers. And then what we have, which we announcing soon, is a new business model where we then help finance their business against their morality.

[D]

Super interesting. Yeah, it's the, it's, you know, we've talked about this a lot on the pod. I think Dave was actually one of the first to point this out like almost 18 months ago, which feels like 12 years ago at this point, which is like vibe coding is coming now. People that never knew how to code or run a business are all of a sudden going to take these tools into their hands, be able to build things overn. And we're going to go from 10 million people in the world who know how to build software to potentially hundreds of millions of people in the world who know how to build software. And, and by, by the way, like profit off of it. Right. And so that's what I think is, is so exciting about this. And you know, Henrik, you, you're coming at this from a team at Autos of, of many people who are building all these tools for your, you know, burgeoning donkey corns. But Ben, you are a one man show right now. You have built Pulse by yourself with a team of agents, no humans involved. And your philosophy is slightly different and that I think you believe that the entrepreneurs of the future will also be solo entrepreneurs like you and don't need full teams. And ultimately it's kind of the one man or one woman company is the future. Can you expand on that?

[A]

I mean, yeah, I mean in my opinion, like AGI is here, right? Which means the AI models are super intelligent. They can reason on anything given the context and they are fluent at using any tool. Which just means that if you push the argument, AI can run the economy. Now the issue is that we need to educate everyone as soon as possible to become part of this new economy which is going to be AI augmented. Every company will be have 80% to 90% of it, be fully autonomous. And honestly, the fastest way to start a company is just one person. If you start hiding a couple of people, then there's already friction because they have to find each other, they have to agree on equity, they have to debate. A one person company is always going to be more efficient. But it used to be so frowned upon. It would be like the bootstrapped person who's like, it's not ambitious and maybe they have to do compromises because they can't build as big of a platform as before. But now that you can take a human salary and literally offer that salary to an AI that costs 1,000th of the price and runs 24,7. You can have one person with an AI team that can go really, really far. And that constraint I put on myself of staying one person is a testament to pushing the boundaries. Right? And so feeling the pain because it's painful. Meaning for a long time I was waking up every two hours to check that the platform was still live. Right? Now I find out the solution.

[B]

AI can shake your eight sleep to wake you up.

[A]

I like that. That's really smart.

[B]

We solved it. But then can I push you on AI can run the economy today in March 2026. Because, you know, my Claude can't remember what I told it to do yesterday. Now my Claude code can, but my Claude cowork can't. So say more about, you know, I mean, I. I think the definition of AGI being here or not here is like, mostly semantic. But, like, what are you actually seeing that gives you the confidence to say AI can, like, run. We're at the point where it can run the world.

[A]

Well, to answer your question, I would say skill issue, right? No pun intended. Meaning if you think about what. So first of all, I say AGI is here. It's part of, like, a provocative series of statements and marketing to wake people up. Because however you want to define AGI, it doesn't matter.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

A superhuman intelligence is here.

[B]

We're two weeks away from super intelligence. You heard it here first.

[A]

I'm like, I'm living in the future. So AGI is here. So maybe it's here in two weeks and I'm exaggerating. It doesn't really matter. I mean, Jensen said it the other day, right? He said that AGI is here.

[B]

I was just going to say, but

[A]

maybe he's also being provocative or maybe he's trying to pump his stock.

[B]

I can't imagine why Jensen Huang would want people to think AGI is here. I can't imagine what that would do to GPU sales. But maybe I'll ask the question differently. The technology you're building, what are the limitations at the moment? Because there can't be any limitations. You're still here, right? Like, so what do you see as. And maybe that's a way of saying, like, in six months, what do you think you'll be able to do that you can't do now on the platform?

[A]

So, I mean, I truly, truly believe that there's no limitations today. Honestly, if. If engineered the right way with the right guardrails with the right sort of like infrastructure players that like are agent friendly, meaning they allow an agent to actually do anything in the economy, which today is not the case. Meaning they have rate limits they are not used to. They see agents as spam. So that's sort of the limitations today. It's not really the capabilities of the model, it's more like the infrastructure of the Internet that's not meant for agents. So that's why there's a whole series of companies that build that. And we are building that at the platform level and I'm partnering with a lot of companies at the infra level to build that. What are the limitations of AI is that AI can run the operations, but in a world where humans are have the wallet share, humans decide with their wallet what goods and services are worthy of attention and spent, then another human on the other side is actually only a human is suited to understand. In March 2026, what are the marketing techniques? What are the branding techniques? What is the price point? What resonates with people? So for example, the marketing I'm doing, I didn't do a launch video on Twitter. I'm just screenshotting blurry screenshots of scrap that goes up. Right? Well, it's like that was my intuition. That's provocative. It's a little annoying, that's a little douchey, but it wakes people up because it's like, what do you mean? And repeating one AI, one founder plus AI, zero employees every single time. It's like, okay, that's my intuition on what I think will resonate with people right now. And so far I'm right. And, and right now I'm working with a lot of super talented marketers and I'm like, how can we reinvent marketing in a world where like, where people may have different perspectives on like how to, how they react to marketing. So to long story short is that AI to me is ready and ready to execute on the grunt work of the operations of running a company. AI is not good at really knowing what people want and really understanding the subtleties of what moves people. It may get there, but maybe it will never get there because when it gets there, the market will be flooded with that perspective and humans will be like, that's AI, I'm not interested anymore. And then humans be like, actually now the new thing is offline. Okay, now it's like person to person thing, but sort of like let's say you're like, okay, you know what, I have a new company. It's emails, but it's human to human. And literally, you send. It's like someone writes a piece of paper and then they go to another person. It's an email. Like, whatever. That's a great business.

[B]

Post Office.

[D]

Yes, by the way.

[A]

By the way, it sounds like a great idea. Yeah, yeah, it's Post Office. But you rebranded as, you know, like, email. Email 3.0.

[D]

You know, we have a. We have a fun phrase that we use about offline ventures that's. It's actually gone, like, more memeified globally, which is offline is the new luxury. Right. Kind of works for our brand. But I like what you said about brand, by the way, and I've noticed this in your marketing with Pulse. It's always like one human, one, you know, team of agents. Like, you repeat the same thing over and over again in your. All your marketing, all your tweets, and you're right. Like, in a world that is so crowded across social media, like, part of the brand itself has it that could be really relevant is to repeat something every time you talk. And I don't actually see that many brands doing that. Jess, you should. You should take note of this for the information.

[B]

Well, we're doing the first in the information. We're trying this. We're just saying first, first, first, first. Yeah, we're trying.

[D]

There you go.

[B]

By the way, I was recently with you when you bought note cards to write handwritten letters.

[D]

The new luxury.

[B]

How is this going? And where is my note card?

[D]

You're on the list.

[B]

Don't worry.

[D]

Oh, yes. We went to a stationery store and I bought Japanese stationery. And I told Jess, you know, I'm gonna sit down every morning a few times a week to actually send handwritten notes to people. Because in this world today, we've gone so agentic and AI everything that I think. I think people will really respect that.

[B]

I just want mine written with a quill. There we go.

[D]

Okay. I've never learned to write with a quill. I'm not from, like, the 1700s, but my terrible handwriting will get you something. Okay. I want to flip it back to Henrik, too, because Henrik, hearing what Ben said, what parts of that do you agree with or disagree with? And, like, how are you coming at this differently with your philosophy for autos?

[C]

Well, I think in many ways, I agree a lot with Ben. When we started, we thought we would need no humans. And so the first version of our platform basically went out and tried to find problems on the Internet. Then it created landing pages. Then we had conversion funnels and then it basically pinged us when we had our first paying customers. And it was crazy stuff, like literally crazy shit. Like people wanted to buy fecal transplant from Olympian athletes and stuff like that, which turned out to be legal, by the way. And so we got so obsessed about

[B]

that is what the AI identified as a great business opportunity.

[C]

I mean, like that.

[D]

Did the human ask for that?

[C]

That was where the CAC was low. I mean, like CAC was low. Tampons for born women, now men that didn't want feminine products. I mean, like, it was some pretty advanced stuff that came out there. But what we got obsessed about was, to Ben's point, that you need a human in the loop, you need a relationship. A customer found a fit. And so we spent like the first year and a half not being good as Ben of like tweeting, but writing a book about what we call relationship capital. And so everything that we're focused on now is like, how do we get somebody in who has authenticity and authority in a specific affinity group and then how do we help them build a product for that group? And what we can see is that, you know, we have people like Sarah who lost her dad and then she built a business about grief counseling, or Matt, who took up golf and now is really good of understanding how to improve your golf swings. And so the businesses that are coming out now to. To Matt, to Ben's point, is people centric. But then obviously it used to be incredibly difficult to build these things, and now specifically after cloud code, you can. You can have machines help you do it.

[D]

What makes this defensible is Sam's question. By the way, if Sam were here.

[B]

Oh, I was just gonna say. Where's Sam?

[D]

Do you wanna be Sam right now, Jess? I think you could do him his best impression.

[B]

I mean, it's also my que. Well, yeah, well, it's a good question. What makes this defensible if the agents are gonna.

[D]

He would also say is this just all like narrative hype and, you know, you're winning the market? No, he likes narrative. I know, but he also thinks it's like not defensible. Yeah, he. He would think both of these things are defensible.

[B]

Slash VC backed.

[C]

I mean, like, I think what we will see is a lot of people trying to go after this space. You know, there's obviously Ben and us and there's like paperclip just came up and there's like base 34 with a Super agent and lovable. And like, I think a lot of people And I think that is a good thing. Will now try to help people build a business. And so, you know, hurrah for that. I think what will happen is that there will be somebody, there are people that will have a really good relationship with a segment of an audience. But I think the reason why we talk about Donkey Kong is that what we might see is not that we are building tons of unicorns. I'm sure that we will have that too, but also that we'll see and I hope that like a million people becoming Internet millionaires by building something on top of it. And I think for them that is an incredibly good living. And we shouldn't forget that over half of the US population worked for a small company that I think it's 89% of all new jobs last year came from a small company. And so I think in many ways what I hope is what we saw with Roblox and YouTube and Airbnb is that we can foster this whole new class of entrepreneurs that we might not have been talking too much about because we were very excited about unicorns.

[D]

So basically, I've heard the analogy like this is the next Shopify kind of category where small businesses can come and build a business on top of a platform. Ben, is that the analogy you would use? And how would you think, how do you think about the overall defensibility of

[A]

the space defensibility of companies like both our companies.

[D]

What you mean AI built companies?

[A]

Yeah, I mean Pulse. I can only talk about Pulse specifically, but we're not building a tool, it's building an economy. So if you think about entrepreneurs going into Pulse here, building a new business that maybe starts making 100 bucks Mr, 500 bucks Mr. And then we're going to build an investor layer of investors that don't have to be your level of investors, but maybe upper middle class investors that maybe invest in stock market and down they go to like a platform like Pulsia and they can have an agent sort of like invest or acquire companies. On pulsea, you start creating a sort of like much more liquidity in an economy where like you have people, builders that like have new ideas and create new ideas. And then you have investors that are like either invest or acquire and grow and do roll ups of that. And so if you believe that's possible, meaning you believe AI is able to enable millions of people to get new ideas out there and build them, and if you believe that there's still going to be investors that are going to be interested in investing in new ideas and funding them and acquiring them. And so essentially you believe that the capitalism is going to be more and more vibrant. You start building a stock market, you start building an economy. You start building. And then with that economy, you can add more players, you can add, you know, loans, you can add like a marketplace of customers that can discover companies and services. I think that's very defensible because there's a lot of network effects now. You have to believe AGI is here, because if you don't believe AGI is here, this whole economy is just slop, Right? It's just like it doesn't work. It's not, you know, but if you believe it's here, it's like. I mean, I think there's going to be many pulse. Yes.

[B]

I'm really struck by what I've seen happen in my business and sort of the news information business with sort of blogging and everything else, right. So we saw the Internet came along and all of a sudden it democratized the tools for being a content creator or journalist or any kind of content creator. And a lot of people pin their hopes on building an independent business with these tools, whether it was traditional journalists who left big publications for Substack, or, you know, just new writers who are emerging. And, and what's basically happened is like, yeah, there are a few hits, right? There are people who are making a lot of money on Substack, but it's really just a few hits. And then other people who are doing it, but they're, they're not making money off it, right? They're doing it for expression or to feed into some other business. And basically it just, everything content kind of got a little more commoditized. And yes, there was a pool that was able to make it big. And that's cool that they use that tool. But the vast mass majority of the people who came to these platforms for the promise of building new businesses just haven't, largely because it just was deflationary in some respects. So why won't that happen with AI?

[A]

I mean, I think that platforms like Substack, like all the social media platforms, they enabled more people with voices and creativity to express themselves and get an audience. Or maybe think about platforms like Etsy to people that build, craft and sell. Now, is everyone on Etsy a millionaire? No. There's some people making 10 bucks a month, some people making 100, some making a thousand. It depends on how much energy they put, how much taste they have, how they think about distribution channels, how they think about sort of like all this. I Just think that if you think about how the Internet collectively enabled more people to be more sort of independent in their choices of how they make money and how they choose to work. Because some people say, oh, Uber is so bad, the gig economy is so negative. But if you talk about the people that actually have three jobs and, like, are able to just stack incomes and like, decide, you know, I'm going to turn on Uber this weekend because I just need cash right now, and then turn it off now, is it profitable for them? I don't know. I'm like, I'm not in the Uber business. Maybe it's not. Maybe if you account for insurance, it's not great. But still, people have a choice to just decide across all these different ways to make money and make a living, how to do it right. And so I think AI is going to AI and platforms like autos or like bossier, like code or like whatever enables people to create more things. And so does that mean that all those things will be profitable or blockbuster successes? Probably not. But is it going to grow the economy 100%? Because there's going to be sort of like more economic actors, more things sold, more things bought, more diversity, more unique things. Because if you create a thousand things, you probably have a couple, maybe 10 or 20 things that are great and amazing. If you can create like a billion new things a year, maybe you have like, you know, hundreds of thousands of things that are unique and amazing. And maybe, you know, when you buy a candle today, you have, you have a choice between 10 brands that resonate with you and maybe tomorrow it'll be a hundred and maybe you'll be so happy to give to buy the candle that you would have bought at like,

[B]

whatever deep teacher demand for 100 candle makers. Like, and I'm just playing devil's advice, like, I'm just arguing. Also, I think the reality is we don't know, right? Because this stuff is so new.

[A]

Well, I know, but you don't know.

[B]

Well, I don't know. We should, we should check in in a couple years. But I think, and Eric, I'm going to go to you in a second, but like, it is really a question, like, there's no doubt today that I think the people on your platform, and I'd love to learn more about their businesses, right. Have found that discontinuity. If you were like, they found these opportunities where there's some market need, they aren't being met and you can automate serving that need in some way. But if you really believe in AGI and us all having a gazillion agents, don't those opportunities, like, kind of collapse because everyone at all, like, I could just tell my agent not go build me this business, but go figure out every business that could possibly be built and go build it. And everyone's agents are telling them that. Right? So, yeah, I mean, I think.

[C]

And this might just be like a too overly philosophical question, but I mean, all of us was part of building the social web. And I think I remember how excited we were when we took pictures of stuff of food and we could show it to each other. Little did we know that we helped kind of destroy the headspace of a generation of young people. Right. And so if the best way is to predict the future is to make it, then I also think in many ways we do have responsibility of trying to say, what can we actually do with this technology that could be pretty useful. And I think you're very right, Jess, that there is a chance that we'll all end up working for the foundational models. And then that kind of is what it is. Right? I think for what I think, Ben, and what we're doing is that we're trying to say, hey, if we can take. 60% of Americans say they'd like to build something and only like 8, 9% go out and actually do it. So there's this gap between like the intent of wanting to go out and serve community and then the people that actually do it. Now, some of the people maybe just say that they can't do it, they can't do it. But for a lot of it, it was a capability issue. They didn't know how to code, they didn't know how to do marketing. They didn't know all these different things. And I think over the last six months, they now have the ability to do so. And so there could also be this beautiful abundance universe where people who truly care about somebody else and understand their problems on a very granular level can now say, I can understand how to build something on top of. Of AI and I can build a meaningful business doing that on your behalf. And for me, like, this idea of a million people making a million dollars is just incredibly exciting to the alternative of like, we all working for Sam

[B]

Altman or Dario or Demis. By the way, guys, I have a. Sorry, this is a good point. I have my advanced copy of the new demos biography here by Sebastian Mallaby called the Infinity Machine.

[C]

What's the. What's the. What's your initial thoughts?

[B]

I know I really, I earmarked the information references. No, no, I. There are way more than that in here. This is an amazing book and I think it comes out soon. And I actually have no idea if I have permission to even share this, but it. Demis gave Sebastian Mallaby like I think 40 hours of interviews or 30 hours of interviews. So it's this huge, I mean very, very in depth biography. And like honestly, and I haven't read every part, but like the takeaway is sort of like we're in the hands of the AGI. I mean it's a little bit of

[D]

like why wouldn't you.

[B]

The AGI, you know, and this is obviously, you know, Demis from is the earliest believer in all of this. As for the purposes of our conversation, it definitely paints the uncertainty, it dials up the uncertainty about the future piece of it.

[D]

That's where I was gonna go. Jess is like, you know, everyone that believes in a lot of people that believe in this AGI future believe like websites don't even matter anymore. The Internet is dead. You're just gonna have your agents surrounding you, we're gonna have wearables all over us. Everything's gonna be always live, recording on etc and I guess for either of you or both of you, like do you subscribe to that future or do you see it differently and how does that influence where you're taking your products today and over the next few years?

[C]

I mean maybe just to answer a quick thing on the website, I mean like I believe that we will have a lot of agent to agent kind of stuff happening and I think that will probably come sooner rather than later. And so we are all I think thinking about what's a post web kind of going to look like. But one thing that we've observed is when we started this was before the first kind of like this last wave of a plot code. And so early days we were basically DMing through Instagram because that was the technology was available and then we were just text based. And what we learned pretty fast, what we had to invent basically a just in time UI because there are just things where you need some kind of a visual like interface. And so we had to build websites even if they were just made in real time for that specific user. And so I think yes, you're right that websites as we know it today, where you sit down and you drop down the menu and stuff like that, I don't imagine that to be around forever, but I do think having visual representation for a user is often needed when you are trying to solve some kind of problem.

[D]

Ben, do you have any alternative thinking on that?

[A]

I think that like the, and I, and I repeat that, like to me, AI is doing 80% of the grunt work. So if you want to sell a candle, if you want to sell a T shirt, it can just do the grunt work of like signing up the websites, like setting it up, giving you a few options. But end of the day, it's a human selling to another human. At least that's like the framework that I think both of our companies are in. If it's agents selling to agents and humans become an enclave in the matrix, of course that world may exist. But let's just talk about the human to human economy. I don't know if people still would like websites in two years, then it's going to be websites and humans will know if it's websites or if it's like, no, now it's only offline. 99% of the company is offline because people hate the Internet. And now it's like, but then you can still have an AI help you set up that offline thing because it can buy really, it can rent a space for you. If you think about like, okay, I need to build this offline experience, right? It's like, it's still a lot of work. You need to like find space. You have to rent it, you have to find stuff, you have to decorate it. You have to find like someone to demolish the wall and like paint it. And you can have AI go research the Internet, figure it out, get quotes, figure out in your budget, find the right person, manage them, right? Because if you think about how, if I'm a contractor and I say, hey, I need business, what I do is I'm a painter and it's like 50 bucks an hour to paint. You put it on like freelancer.com and you have an AI that says, hey, okay, I'm not a human, I'm an AI. But like, I'm working on behalf of a customer. We'll pay you 50 bucks a month. You have to go here, are you available? And they'll say, yeah, I'm available. And it's going to be a 150. Okay, cool. I'll pay you on time. I'll be your best manager. If you do the job, I'll book you again for my next customer. If you don't do the job, I will blacklist you. But that's fine, you can go somewhere else. I will not book you again. I'll be your best manager. I'll explain everything and I'll be just. And I'll give you a bonus if you do it in two hours instead of three. And I think that world will come and actually will be a net positive because people prefer talking to an AI than talking sometimes to another person when it comes to sharing weird, you know, weird ideas they have. And the same way people will maybe appreciate, like, an AI that pays them on time and doesn't have bad copy coffee. Coffee breath and doesn't yell at them when something goes wrong.

[D]

Do you have to disclose it? Is that the key is, like, disclosing, like, I'm an AI. I'm writing on behalf of Brit to see if you want to paint her wall for 50 bucks.

[A]

Whatever works, right? Whatever the human on the other side accepts or is fine with, I cannot predict. What I cannot predict is how humans will react to anything. What I can predict, though, is that humans will be the best at figuring out whether the humans want.

[D]

Well, Ben, you just had a flood of investors getting really excited about pulsea recently and emailing you. And your AI responded and did all of your investor relations, basically, oh, wow. I emailed Ben to connect him to someone, and it responded to me and was like, hey, I'm Ben. I think it's said it's been not your AI. I don't remember what.

[A]

Shouldn't say it's been, but okay, it

[D]

might have said it's. It was unhinged. And it was like, hey, here are the terms. The round I'm raising. Here's the timeline. Sort of doing all the fielding of investor interest, which I thought was hilarious. But on the flip side. So I'm. I'm a user of both Pulse and Autos, obviously. I've built many companies on both of them, and I currently have. I have one company that I'm building on, actually on both at the same time because it's been fun to play with both, which is making more money. Well, it's only two days in so far.

[B]

Okay, Very fair.

[D]

Okay, so I'm just gonna tell everyone that's listening what I'm building. If you want to copy me, fine. So I. I think there's something really interesting about finding, like, the best spiritual teachers. So a lot of women in particular are really that are in my community. I've gotten really deep into, like, finding the really cool psychics or. Or astrologists or whatever. And it's kind of an underground market. These people, like, you have to have,

[B]

like, a network, find them on the Internet. Brit, I have to ask you.

[D]

I think. I think AI can solve this problem. This is why I'm using. I'm like this. I think we can unearth all the underground. Best of the best spiritual teachers build a Raya like invite only. You have to be selected Interface Marketplace for this. In charge of subscription, potentially even on both sides. And so I just started this this weekend. Fast forward a day or two. Pulsi is emailing out all he's identified all of the spiritual teachers starting just email these people. And I'm wondering like, huh, is this psychic medium going to think this I'm totally insane for having my AI reach out to them? Or are the psychic medium psyched cuz they knew this was happening, this was going to happen in the first place and it's like they're down with it. But I do think this part of disclosure and this AI acting on your behalf to like even just reach out to people, it's like sent 28 emails yesterday. I'm like, okay, I'm kind of letting it run and, and see how it goes. But I don't know, are normal people gonna be okay with that? Or again, like, is there gonna be some form of AI etiquette here?

[B]

Bot etiquette is totally, I, I think you put it very well, Ben, where there's just, I mean, I, I called the Village Pub, fancy Michelin star restaurant in Woodside to figure out if I could bring my kid. Cause like, I don't know what the kid policy is, right? And they pick up right away and it says something like, this is an I maybe even said AI because in Woodside you can say that, right? But it was like you're talking to the digital assistant of the Woodside pub, right? And I hear that voice at first I'm like, oh God, this is going to be a series of dead ends. But I thought we're in Silicon Valley, maybe this one actually works. I said can I bring my 9 year old to dinner at the bar? And they said absolutely, and we'll see you at 5pm And I thought it was such a great experience and I'm sort of glad it was so efficient. So I think we're fine with bot communication.

[D]

We're good with that. Okay, but do you think like the psychics are cool with it with AI?

[B]

I do not pretend to speak for the psychics, but I think, you know what I really think? I think most of the psychics are bullshit. And so they'll say whatever.

[D]

That's why you gotta find the top 5%, Jess. The top 5% are legit also.

[B]

Once again, you and Sam are kind of building the same company, which is so funny because you guys are like

[D]

Sam's building a psychic marketplace he's building

[B]

that could be used to do this. So I cannot say more.

[C]

My co founder Nicholas, he did the same thing. He built something called Badger that does all the outreach on his behalf. So a business way I can just give a call. One thing that though I will say is that I do think, and this is obviously both from Barkbox where we have people calling all the time, is I do think that in this age where there will be a lot of slop, I do think people increasingly, when they don't want a mechanical answer, they do like an emotional human to human kind of thing. And so when this is out in a few days, right, we're going to announce tomorrow that we're buying no Cap, which is the first kind of AI investor because we are starting now to try to understand much better. We have our first cohort that we've invested into that are making real money on the platform. And so we're trying to figure out how do we become really good of doing this kind of investment at scale if you want to invest in hundreds of thousands of companies. And one thing that we are trying to figure out is where do you put humans in the loop and what kind of humans in the loop do you need to put there so that the founders kind of feel that they have that. Because one thing that the solo founders on our platform really seem to need is a little bit of community. They do like the agents, but they also quite lonely, a lot of them. So we're trying to figure out exactly where is that balance between being mechanical and efficient, but also kind of having that human touch.

[B]

There's definitely this like, I'm also like when is this coming out versus what I can say it's good that I think that way. But there's this barbell, right, to like the world. And as, as we like the AI side, the automated side, the agentic side goes through the roof. There's really interesting question of like what is society going to try to do to counterbalance that, right? And we've talked about offline and community and Dave's favorite topics, but I mean, maybe psychics too, I guess. But I just want to say, Ben, I'm really struck and I think it's really cool how much agency you still give the human in all of this. For like you've said several times, humans know what humans want best, that demand thing. And I think that's really interesting. Because I think we've also learned from Amazon's recommendation engine that tech also is really good at predicting what people want or from these social media engagement traps. Is that just sort of like an instinct you have or is that proving true in other ways that you're seeing?

[A]

Well, I think that if you look at Amazon or reels or whatever, essentially it's algorithms that are very good at showing other humans content or products to other humans.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it's not necessarily like Amazon or Facebook creating Amazon generated or meta generated content and pushing to people. It's connecting humans, end of the day. Right. So, and that's. That to me, goes back again to AI is really good at the 80%, the boring 80% of like, how do I connect to someone else? Okay, if I'm doing cold outreach, should I do cold outreach if it's a psychic or, or actually should I do an AI call or should I actually get like a commission, a human to walk to them silently and whisper their ears?

[D]

Yeah, make that an option. I want to select that one.

[A]

No, but like, that's the weird stuff that will emerge, right? Because the AI will learn the best practices at the time, which will change constantly. Right. Because people will react differently to different types of outreach or marketing over time as society gets weirder and weirder and involves.

[B]

I wonder. That reminded me of a big headline of this week and we will get to some headlines at the end. So for those who are tuning into this podcast for the headlines, first of all, you're tuning in for the wrong reasons. But we will discuss it. But the shuttering of Sora as reported by the Information is pretty interesting in that regard. Right? Which was a.

[D]

Well, and you guys, do you both use Sora and your back end for. Because I don't think Otto says. But Pulse, you guys use Sora to generate video ads for these companies automatically.

[B]

So how do you feel about this news?

[A]

Yeah, I need to figure out another model. I mean models. Sora too, to me was the best. And I said that to Sam, like, it's like, honestly, it's the best model to me in terms of realism. Like, they did such a good job. I don't really. I understand the way they're shutting down Sora app because it's just too expensive and didn't really work. But the Sora API, from the API perspective, I don't really see. Unless it's like a copyright lawsuit situation that is getting too out of hand, which is also possible. But I don't think it's going to impact us too much. Because I'll test the 10 other models that exist and there's probably a few that are as good or better.

[D]

It's all just electricity. Jess, he's just going to move over to the other meter and get his electricity.

[B]

Yeah. Which again, does not give a lot of confidence in the margins of the meter companies.

[A]

I mean there's a big, I mean it's interesting. I mean, on that topic, like I, what I want is the best outcome for my customers. So I want agents to have the best outcomes at the cheapest price possible. Because 50 bucks a month, if I can make it 25 bucks a month, I will 10x my user base. If I can make 10 bucks a month, I will get to emerging markets. So I want the cheapest price. And so how do I get the cheapest price? I need to go to every single provider of every single economic actors in the economy and put them into competition. But I'm not going to put them into competition. My AI is going to say, hey, I was talking to Anthropic and they were like, hey dude, if you commit to a million dollar spend, I'll give you X percent discount. And if you commit to X amount, I will be X Y amount. And I was like, well, yeah, I love it, thank you so much. But it's going to be the opposite. I'm going to tell you, my customer is willing to pay this much for this task. And so, and this other AI is giving me that price and like it's 80% less, it's 20% less good than yours, but like it's so much cheaper and so can you hit that price? I didn't really say that, but this is the reality where it goes. Right?

[B]

What about open source? Are either of you using that?

[A]

I mean, not yet, but as we are getting to scale and price and margins and lowering the price and having higher margins becomes so important. Yeah, we're exploring everything. And you look at the news of Cursor who just dropped Composer two, which obviously is their way to make margins in a world where they were probably losing money and now they are doing their own model and it wasn't covered, it was just a Kimi 2.5 RL'd on probably their customers data, I'm guessing, or anonymized or whatever. And it's like, oh, literally. And they're saying, oh, it's as good as Opus and faster. And it's like, I think it's Chinese model. Right. That was RL'd. And you're like, okay, I guess that's not that difficult anymore to do custom models and use open source to get 90% of the value. And for really the Sota model you can use maybe for chat or strategy, right? But every grunt work could be done by like way cheaper models for us right now. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[C]

I was just thinking for us, you know, like there's so many things that there's so many agents doing so many things like from hey, let me help you design your swag, to let me design your help me do your ads, to let's do outreach to journalists that right now the I think the game for us is much more what is the right model for all these different subtasks and then make sure that we can get as fast as possible to make the founders on platform as much money as possible. Because I think for all of us that's really where the game is at. Like can we actually show that people can come in and make a decent amount of money being entrepreneur on platform? And then I think to Ben's point, the model prices will come down and you know, if suddenly one model becomes very expensive, you'll find a way to maybe use a subpar model and swap that out. But right now it's all about making sure the, the flow and all these thousand things that need to go right for being an entrepreneur goes right.

[B]

So to wrap up this point and then we'll zoom out a bit, be respectful of everyone's time. Do you see the model makers having competitive long term differentiation? And how if so if what you just said is true and also the windows of commoditizing are collapsing, collapsing, collapsing, right? It used to be you had X your heads up. Is it that vision of the world or is it the vision of the world that there can be enough specialization branches to go down, that anthropic can be a trillion dollar company, OpenAI can be a trillion dollar company, so on and so forth.

[A]

I mean my opinion, it's like in this world everything is copyable much faster, right? And AI enables everything to be copied much faster. And so the only mode is speed. And so what the model companies have is they're so fast because they know the new model before everyone else, three months before everyone else, right? And so they can use it or they can build the product that new intelligence enables before everyone else and so they have speed on their side. If you look at companies like Antropic, I mean opening Entropic, but I think Entropic recently is ripping. They are just dropping new products and new capabilities. So Fast. And that's what makes them win. Not that because they're the model companies, just because they are just in this flywheel of getting all the data from customers, rlling their models on pragmatic sort of outcomes, and then building the products that get them even more data and become more mainstream. And I think OpenAI needs to catch up on that. And that's what they're doing right now is realizing, okay, let's stop doing like those. They start not trying to do a social network compete with Facebook. Let's actually go and just do the pragmatic things first.

[B]

And a health product and a shopping product and a chip and a hardware device. They're still doing advertising.

[C]

I think the other mode, though is one is speed. I very much agree with that. But the other thing is this relationship capital, like humans understand humans best. And I do think in the book we talk about these three layers of relationship capital. Depth, density and durability. And that is experience. We've learned from building row and bark and all those different ones. And I do think that that will matter. Can there be a founder customer fit where they understand the customer at a level where they can almost predict the problems that they're going to have before them and make sure there's a solution? And if you can create that mode, the relationship capital mode, I think that together with Speak will compound what neither

[B]

of you said is distribution, which I think is interesting.

[D]

Right.

[B]

It makes you worried for poor Google. I'm not really worried about Google, but what do you. We haven't talked about Google. Are you using any of their models?

[C]

We're using Google for, for a video, for example. Our background videos that get rendered is. Is Google and we're using it at a bunch of other places. And so I mean, like, we really are using all the models right now and figuring out which one works best for each of the tasks.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Can I ask a question? Given that you, you both are like, you know, the king of agents, you're both like, probably as deep as one could be. How are you using this in your normal life? Oh, my gosh. And maybe novel ways that aren't not like the typical daily digest and the weather and the news and all that.

[C]

I'll give you a few, I mean, like a few things. One is, I think increasingly I really need to understand myself better in order to make sure that my agents can be an extension of me. And so I've started to do a lot of these things, for example, where I try to make sure that I don't have cognitive decline because I just go, yes, yes, yes. And so a new thing for the agents that I work with is to say, don't give me one solution, but give me three different ones. And so it forced me to pick a different one.

[B]

We're making the agents less good to hold on to our brain.

[C]

I think we have to choose what do we still want to be good at. And that requires training. Right. And so that is, for example, that or if you just said yes three times, like, or go to bed at a decent time. It's so exciting right now that you kind of want to work 24 7. And so like for example, mine at 10:30 start to go like, hey Andrew, you should really start to go to bed now because if you don't get your seven hours, you're going to be toast tomorrow.

[D]

Dave, I brought up the idea of called the Brain gym last week on the pod. I think it's a thing. I think we need to talk about it.

[B]

Oh my God. It's really wild though. But yeah. Wow. Okay. This is so exciting, guys. I think, I mean it's amazing to hear from. You have such an interesting point of view in all of this and just to see in real time. So I feel like this is going to be like every three months. The, the puck is going to move

[C]

somewhere every three months. You know, like, I think both of us deploying, we're deploying code every day.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Like, it is insane how fast these things are moving.

[D]

Yeah. I mean life as a founder right now, we don't need to get on this tangent. But like not only are you, yeah, you're deploying every day, you're moving faster than other and you're more excited about the rest of the world and everything happening in tech than ever before. So you're not sleeping. And VCs are just like throwing money at anything and putting crazy valuations on everything. Like it's like, like this is this, is this not the strangest time to be a founder? Like, do you love it having having built companies before? Like, how do. Is this better or worse than the last go round?

[B]

Oh yeah, good question.

[C]

I mean like I love the pe. The period of time right now, obviously, like it's in. It's a vulnerable time. Like the world is burning and all these things kind of like seems like makes you uneasy. But I think for an entrepreneur, the, the technologies that is available now for somebody who, who are able to originate and has something that they really want to build, just never been there before like now. And so I Find it to be incredibly exciting.

[D]

This is the best founding era you've ever been in?

[C]

I think so.

[D]

25, 30 years.

[C]

I mean, like, building bokboks and building bog air was pretty fun too, and Ro and these other ones. And so I don't want to dismiss that, but, like, it is pretty exciting.

[A]

I mean, I think it's the most productive time to build, but it's also. Everyone's more productive. I don't know if it's the most fun because, you know, you can find joy in, like, in slowness and, like, you know, in grinding and, like, you know, you can be a Japanese artist and, like, do blue jeans and just spend like, 10 hours doing a blue jean. And that's maybe as gratifying as, like, having a jeans factory in China or something. Right. And producing a million an hour. So I don't know about being the most fun, but it's the most productive. And that's. It's mind bending because even, like, how fast I'm able to grow my business and everything is compounding so fast. And that's incredible. Yeah, it looks like, you know, what it feels like me is like the singularity is, you know, what we've called the singularity. Oagi is here. And this is just the compounding of everything. And just like, it's scary and exciting. That's the way I would see it. I would see it.

[B]

I think it's exhausting. I think that's what it is.

[A]

I think it's also exhausting.

[B]

And, like, maybe that does actually, like. And that's not. Not a trivial point, right? To your point that, like, if people aren't finding purpose, I mean, maybe they are to a point. But, like, again, productivity and joy are two different things, to your point, Ben? So, yeah, I think where. Henrik, your point about just having to know yourself better, I thought was really interesting, actually. Like, maybe that would be a good lesson for everyone to keep in mind throughout all of this.

[C]

I think when OpenCloud came out with, like, the Soul file and the Persona file, I mean, like, it really clicked for me that we need to go through a period of time figuring out what do I want to do, who do I want to serve, but also, like, what kind of business do I want? Do I want one business and make a few hundred thousand dollars and just be fine with that? Do I want to then or do I want to become a portfolio entrepreneur and have, like, five of these running at the same time? What kind of parameters would I put around it? Like, do I go to bed at 10:30 and all those different things. And so I think this kind of period of maybe even using the AI to become better of understanding who our true self, who that is and, and how we want to show up in an agentic world I think is going to be important.

[B]

Well, that is a wonderful note to sort of end on. And I actually think we got through many of the big headlines of the week. We got through the strategy changes at OpenAI. We didn't mention SpaceX. Anyone got SpaceX shares out there excited about Sam does forthcoming IPO?

[C]

Of course he does.

[B]

Okay, great.

[D]

Yes, we have Aura shares. So the Aura IPO is now on the radar.

[B]

The Aura ipo, speaking of health. So yeah, we've got agent news and then we've also got some big tech market making things on the horizon. So we'll see what happens. But thank you guys for spending some time with us. It's really, really special for me because I don't get the benefit of talking to entrepreneurs I've invested in all day like Brit.

[D]

And I will say, yeah, I love talking to both of you guys. And just one more shout out to autos.com and polio.com and also Henrik's book. Me, myself and AI.

[B]

Say that, say the name of the book again. I was actually gonna. Me, myself and AI.

[D]

Sorry, Me, my customer and me, myself and I is the movie Me, my customer and AI and so yeah, everyone should go buy it. Check out, start, start your own business today. Jess, you need to do it too.

[B]

You know, I have a business actually, so. So not all of us can start 27 businesses. You guys have like your power user and power investor in one. But it is very cool. I mean, and maybe I'm thinking too small and.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, to our listeners, I hope you guys enjoyed hearing from Ben and Henrik and we will see you back here next week for another episode of More or Less. Bye.

[D]

Bye, guys.

[A]

Bye.

[D]

If you enjoyed this show, please leave us a virtual high five by rating it and reviewing it on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. Find more information about each episode in the show notes and follow us on social media by searching for More or Less. Avemorin, Essonlesson. And as for me, I'm Brit. See you guys next time.