What Tim Cook’s “Executive Chairman” Move Really Means | Musk vs OpenAI, xAI and Cursor Rumors

Summary

More or Less — Episode Summary

Podcast: More or Less
Hosts: Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, Sam Lessin
Episode: What Tim Cook’s “Executive Chairman” Move Really Means | Musk vs OpenAI, xAI and Cursor Rumors
Date: April 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into three hot topics shaking Silicon Valley:

• The real implications of Tim Cook’s move to Executive Chairman at Apple
• The ongoing Musk vs. OpenAI legal battle and its wider cultural ripples
• Musk’s xAI/Cursor deal and what it signals for the future of AI startups
  The hosts, close friends with long tech pedigrees, tackle these themes with their signature blend of competitive banter, candid insight, and personal anecdotes, offering an insider’s look at tech’s seismic shifts.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tim Cook’s Transition to Executive Chairman at Apple

Apple’s Succession Plan Deconstructed

• Perception vs. Reality:
  • Sam Altman opens framing Tim Cook’s move as “stepping up, not down” ([00:00–00:06]), challenging media narratives. Brett Taylor jokes, "And that's exactly what Apple wants you to think."
  • Sam Lessin notes Cook’s achievements ("$4 trillion of value") and that Exec Chairman lets him “kick himself up” while retaining a fallback in case things go wrong ([00:08]).
• Why Make This Move?
  • It’s about continuity during a critical industry inflection point—especially with emerging AI challenges and US-China issues.
• Comparisons to Other Silicon Valley Giants:
  • Sam Altman likens it to Alphabet’s structural shift: the Exec Chairman role signals Apple’s maturation and focus on capital allocation, rather than an ordinary succession ([14:30–15:27]).
• New CEO John Ternus’ Profile:
  • Brett Taylor highlights Ternus’ hardware background and calm demeanor versus “bombastic” alternatives ([17:41]).
  • Internal-only serious candidates; Apple wouldn't import an outside CEO at this scale.
  • High-stakes: managing China supply chain, US regulatory backdrop.
• Financial Reality Check:
  • Hosts debate Apple TV+ as a “loss leader” and the larger split between financial models & actual company strengths ([16:26–17:14]).
• Broader Significance:
  • Current mega-cap asset prices are “disconnected from reality”—the new leadership structure is both protection and evolution.

Notable Quote:
“An exec chairman is someone who's going to play a lot more golf, but is going to show up...for needed and is going to mentor the CEO in process. That's what it is.”
— Brett Taylor ([14:15])

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2. Breakthrough Prize, CRISPR’s Rise, and AI’s Image Problem

Celebrating Science, Questioning AI

• Brett Taylor recounts attending the Breakthrough Prize, dubbing it “the science Oscars.”
  • CRISPR gene therapy celebrated: “It's like Waymo—after 10 years of ‘it's going to work,’ now it works!” ([04:36])
  • Stories of “one of one” drugs, including a baby cured via FDA-fast-tracked CRISPR therapy ([05:14]).
• AI Backlash and Branding Dilemma:
  • AI missed from the spotlight, hosts observe a cooling in public attitudes—“The AI backlash...keep the AI at a simmer” ([06:12]).
  • Personal anecdotes: Dave’s colonoscopy nurse’s AI fears, Reese Witherspoon’s Instagram backlash. Issues include job loss, societal angst, misinformation ([07:15–08:13]).
  • Unanimous: this isn’t just branding—a deeper societal trust issue.
• UBI and Meaning:
  • Hosts are skeptical of universal basic income as a solution for AI-driven disruption; see real psychological risk as the “crisis of meaning,” not just employment ([09:09]).
• Inside Silicon Valley’s Psyche:
  • Sam Lessin tells stories of engineers with emotional support plushies—AI-enabled toys, blending tech, childhood, and adult workspaces ([01:29–03:13]).

Notable Quote:
“The problem is not basic income. The problem is meaning...You can't just pay people and make them happy. They'll just be sadder.”
— Sam Lessin ([09:09])

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3. Nvidia/Jensen Huang and US-China Tech Tension

• Jensen Huang’s interview meltdown over selling chips to China:
  • Technical pushback during an interview, illustrating US-China semiconductor anxieties ([10:25–12:17]).
  • Brett Taylor: “Interviewers need to be as informed as possible...Jensen wasn't used to getting that pushback.”
• Tech Leadership under Pressure:
  • Execs are under exceptional scrutiny; insider moments reveal personal intensity and marketing savvy.

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4. Elon Musk vs OpenAI: Lawsuit Drama and Industry Ethics

The Lawsuit’s Heart: A Bait and Switch?

• Musk’s case: converting OpenAI from nonprofit to for-profit was a “bait and switch”—data and research were gathered under claims of social good, then monetized ([23:25–24:27]).
• OpenAI’s defense: the corporate switch was always an option; Musk involved in early discussions.
• Stakes: not just money but “narrative” and power in the AI race.
• The WWE Theory of Silicon Valley:
  • Sam Lessin: “This is just characters playing a game...It has nothing to do with money. It has to do with narrative.” ([27:20–27:39])
• Will There Be a Trial?
  • The panel anticipates a likely last-minute settlement, as both sides want to maintain control over the narrative and internal focus ([25:32–25:36]).
• Broader Implications:
  • Lawsuit echoes “city states” competing at narrative scale—real drama isn’t about cash, but who remains “untouchable” in AI.

Notable Quote:
“Everything is priced on narrative. If Elon shows he’s bulletproof and what he says happens…he can price Tesla at $1.75 trillion. It has nothing to do with money.”
— Sam Lessin ([27:39])

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5. xAI, Cursor, and the Race for AI Training Data

• The Rumored Cursor Deal:
  • xAI’s offer to acquire Cursor for up to $60B (contingent on creating a superior coding model using Cursor’s unique dataset and Musk’s data centers).
  • If unsuccessful, Cursor still gets $10B “consulting” ([32:16]).
  • High-stakes “experiment” underscores value of proprietary “traces” (recorded developer interactions)—table stakes for next-gen coding AIs.
• Cursor’s Perspective:
  • Some hosts call the deal a ‘win-win’ for a startup facing possible irrelevance or zero-value, others see it as a sign of their fall from grace ([32:49–34:53]).
• The Value of Data:
  • “Foundational model companies are out of data...Every single model company is out of data and they need more human-generated data to improve their models” ([37:16]).
  • Cursor’s user traces are strategic, irreplaceable assets in today’s AI competition.
• Big Picture:
  • The move signals that most standalone AI tool startups are “seconds from getting swiped,” with real platform value accruing to data hoarders and mega-hardware operators.

Notable Quote:
"If you have a category that's evergreen...you have a compounding data asset. If Cursor has zero users in six months, they still have a data asset that they can sell a few times."
— Sam Lessin ([38:51])

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6. Workplace Surveillance: Meta and the Future of Employee Data Exhaust

• Meta now tracks employee keystrokes and computer use:
  • Sam Lessin describes this as a logical, if invasive, extension of historical data-driven process optimization ([40:12–44:22]).
  • Draws on his own startup (Finn) that monitored everything agents did to train automation systems a decade ago.
• Ethics & Employee Rights:
  • Raises questions about fairness, data ownership, and whether employees should be compensated for the corporate value their data generates ([42:49–43:08]).
  • Tension between salaried and “piecework” pay models in tech.
• Inevitable March:
  • Hosts agree AI models—particularly in computer task automation—require this depth of training data.
  • Sam Altman: “The only way we're going to get there is with some kind of something like this” ([44:02]).

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7. Optimism about AI’s Enabling Potential

Final Thoughts on AI, Agency, and Meaningfulness

• Dave Morin and Sam Altman call for a “counter narrative”: AI as empowerment, not just a job-killer.
  • Only 50 million people code, but AI may let hundreds of millions create software; meaning comes from agency, ability, and creation ([47:01–48:40]).
• Sam Lessin is cautious: AI increases personal leverage but may shrink the collaborative, middle-tier meaning found in today’s companies ([50:13]).
• Sam Altman invokes the PC revolution: “When I was 7, my grandfather put a Macintosh on my desk...it took 30 years to lower the price...We're in the second phase of this...” ([51:15–52:07]).
• The episode ends on a high note: more people building, learning, and finding agency is the carrot to offset transitional disruption in jobs and culture.

Notable Quote:
"The idea that AI is going to unlock tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, of people to create software...is an incredibly powerful story."
— Dave Morin ([48:40])

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (w/ Timestamps)

• “Tim Cook stepped up.”—Sam Altman ([00:00])
• “An exec chairman is someone who's going to play a lot more golf...that’s what it is.”—Brett Taylor ([14:15])
• “It's like Waymo—after 10 years of ‘it's going to work,’ now it works!”—Brett Taylor ([04:36])
• “The job is meaning...You can't just pay people and make them happy. They'll just be sadder.”—Sam Lessin ([09:09])
• “Everything is priced on narrative. If Elon shows...he can price Tesla at $1.75 trillion.”—Sam Lessin ([27:39])
• “Foundational model companies are out of data...”—Sam Altman ([37:16])
• “If Cursor has zero users in six months, they still have a data asset they can sell.”—Sam Lessin ([38:51])
• “I feel like the employees should get a cut of the ultimate value of the data.”—Dave Morin ([42:49])
• “The idea that AI is going to unlock tens of millions more people to create software...is an incredibly powerful story.”—Dave Morin ([48:40])
• “When I was 7, my grandfather put a Macintosh on my desk...We're in the second phase of this [revolution].”—Sam Altman ([51:15])

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Key Segment Timestamps

• [00:00–04:00] — Light banter, AI-enabled toys, emotional support plushies in tech
• [04:10–09:30] — CRISPR/Breakthrough Prize, AI backlash & meaning
• [10:25–12:17] — Nvidia/Jensen Huang interview, US-China chip friction
• [12:32–20:00] — Apple succession, Ternus & exec chairman debate
• [23:25–29:45] — Musk vs OpenAI lawsuit deep dive
• [30:46–39:32] — xAI & Cursor mega-deal, value of coding traces
• [40:12–44:22] — Meta tracking employees, automation data
• [47:00–52:07] — Closing: AI as empowerment and new agency

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Tone and Style

• Unfiltered, playful, and often tongue-in-cheek
• Highly knowledgeable, with frequent in-jokes and insider references
• Willing to “call bullshit,” highlight contradictions, and challenge orthodoxy
• Deep sense of friendship, informed cynicism, and the lived experience of building, funding, and reporting on Silicon Valley’s biggest wins and controversies

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Summary Takeaway

If you want a sharp, inside view on how tech’s most important players are managing power transitions, lawsuits with existential implications, and the scramble for data at the core of the AI gold rush—plus a frank assessment of what’s at stake for workers, creators, and the tech economy—this episode delivers with humor, skepticism, and genuine optimism for technology’s empowerment potential, all from voices who’ve shaped and witnessed tech’s last decade firsthand.

Transcript

[Sam Altman]

Everybody was writing these articles that Tim Cook stepped down when my framing for this is Tim Cook stepped up.

[Brett Taylor]

And that's exactly what Apple wants you to think.

[Sam Lessin]

He's like, I did really well. I could. $4 trillion of value. I'm going to kick myself up. Good luck with the AI problem. If it goes badly, I'm back. And if you do it great, then wonderful.

[Brett Taylor]

More or less.

[Dave Morin]

Is it no or is it yes?

[Brett Taylor]

We'll debate the tech that's best when we get More or Less Dave and grip your salmon.

[Dave Morin]

Jess, put it all right to the test.

[Brett Taylor]

More or less. Why, hello, friends. Welcome to More or Less full quad edition.

[Sam Altman]

Good to be back.

[Dave Morin]

Sam, are you going to tap out on us this week midway, or are you here for the whole time?

[Brett Taylor]

Sam, when does your next meeting start?

[Sam Lessin]

No one. Who cares?

[Dave Morin]

He's eating something. So we know we've got the real Sam back.

[Brett Taylor]

We've got the real Sam back.

[Sam Lessin]

Creatine chews. I got Diet Cokes. I've got the breakfast of cheese, champagne.

[Brett Taylor]

Creatine chews didn't work. You told me not to eat them.

[Sam Lessin]

No, no, these are. No, these aren't. Well, they're not chews. They're like the. They're like chalky.

[Sam Altman]

If you put the.

[Sam Lessin]

The gummies are the ones that destroy the creatine. But they're like. These are very good. These are the momentous ones.

[Brett Taylor]

They're pellets. Creatine pellets.

[Sam Lessin]

They're very good. The lemon lime ones, you just snack on them all day long at your desk.

[Sam Altman]

It's a lot of creatine.

[Brett Taylor]

Are you keeping track of how much creatine you're ingesting?

[Dave Morin]

That's a lot of creatine.

[Brett Taylor]

Brit, you have a furry friend next to you. Oh, what is this? What's happening?

[Dave Morin]

I'm announcing I've become a furry. Just kidding. This is a.

[Sam Lessin]

Well, that'll get people to tune in.

[Dave Morin]

This is a prototype that I'm only turning on for one second because Dave doesn't like it when I turn it on. It's. It's an AI enabled stuffed animal that is a baby deer. And when you hold its hand and you say, hello, Winter, how are you right now, then it will actually listen to it.

[Brett Taylor]

Hello, Winter. I'm good. Really good right now. Especially since you're here. How are you doing?

[Sam Altman]

Sam's vision come to reality?

[Sam Lessin]

Well, this is like. I mean, Eric Antono built this with my. My, My par. Like a year ago. Remember I had my parrot that went on your arm and, like, had a little Bluetooth speaker in it with chat GPT.

[Sam Altman]

This is the end of. This is not the band. I don't know, man.

[Dave Morin]

Well, I took it home. I'm just, you know, obviously I got a pitch. I'm not going to tell you what I thought about the pitch, but I took it home because I was like, my kids would want to see this. This is cool. And I was right. They thought it was amazing. My 3 year old specifically was like, all about it. Wanted to sleep with it, like, talk to it for an hour. And then Dave was like, panicking. He's like, we don't need AI friends and stuffies in our house on our networks. Like, this is crazy.

[Sam Altman]

This is the best cybersecurity attack ever.

[Sam Lessin]

It's great. Like, our three year old.

[Sam Altman]

Take this home to your kid.

[Sam Lessin]

Loved the little stuffy we had with a mic with the thing stuffed in it last time. It was very funny. We're like, tell a pirate joke, whatever. It's just like one. No, I don't want them having that. And then do. I don't know. I just. I think, you know, it's kind of like. Do you, Dave, do you remember, like, back, like, when we used to work at. This was always shocking to me at, like, places like Facebook and other big tech companies, there were like, these plushes that some engineers would carry around for, like, safety.

[Sam Altman]

I don't remember this.

[Dave Morin]

Like, their emotional support.

[Sam Lessin]

Like, emotional support.

[Brett Taylor]

Fluffy.

[Sam Lessin]

And they, like, walk around in meetings with it and you're like, what the fuck?

[Sam Altman]

Really?

[Dave Morin]

Because that's what kids do.

[Sam Altman]

That was not what it was like when I was.

[Sam Lessin]

I don't know, there was this whole thing where people, like, needed their, like, emotional support thing, the code. And you're just like, oh, man. Like, first of all, that's gonna be. The real Chinese thing, is you get a bunch of engineers to be like, you need this stuffy at your desk when you program all the time.

[Brett Taylor]

This emotion, this, like, did you guys have Teddy Ruxpins? Is that like. Yeah.

[Dave Morin]

You guys invested in SLOW at Toybot. What was the company called?

[Sam Lessin]

Toy Talk a generation ago.

[Sam Altman]

That was a different story. That was an AI project.

[Dave Morin]

This is an AI project, Dave.

[Sam Lessin]

Well, and Toy Talk didn't work. It was like, the right vision.

[Dave Morin]

Clearly you thought it was a good idea.

[Sam Lessin]

Well, I don't know. I didn't write that check. Although I do quite like the CEO, by the way. That was the. That guy. He's awesome.

[Brett Taylor]

Pixar. Yeah.

[Sam Altman]

He's the CTO of Roblox. Now.

[Sam Lessin]

Yeah. Great guy.

[Dave Morin]

Like an Oscar award winning team that's making this company. I think all the like Oscar award

[Sam Lessin]

winning teams generally win at technology products, so good luck with that always.

[Brett Taylor]

Speaking of the Oscars, Sam and I went to the science Oscars, called the breakthrough prize this last weekend.

[Dave Morin]

Who won what? What new innovations.

[Brett Taylor]

I gotta tell you guys, gene therapies like CRISPR. It's going to be streamed next week on YouTube. The gene therapy world is really working. So there were amazing scientists.

[Sam Altman]

I thought the CRISPR people already won the breakthrough prize.

[Sam Lessin]

They did, but it was like 10 years of like, this is going to be awesome.

[Brett Taylor]

But now the applications. Yeah.

[Sam Lessin]

And now it's like, this works. It's in like it. Actually my analogy is it feels exactly like waymo, where for 10 years people have been like, CRISPR is awesome. You know, like, it is awesome. It's very, very cool. But now it's like, oh, shit, it works.

[Dave Morin]

So what are we able to do now? What kind of gene therapies are we curing diseases or what?

[Sam Lessin]

Like, you know what it means, Brett, is you actually will be able to turn into a furry.

[Dave Morin]

Yes, I can grow hair in weird places.

[Brett Taylor]

We're curing blind. I mean, the basic thing is to be able to target really rare things. And you got Baby KJ was there. This is a case that got.

[Sam Lessin]

Everyone loves baby kj.

[Dave Morin]

Who's baby kj.

[Brett Taylor]

But baby KJ was a baby who had, I think it was a liver disorder or just, you know, at birth was identified with something that. That really was a horrible, horrible prognosis. And two scientists fast tracked with the FDA like a one of one drug. So a drug that was like totally targeted to KJ's condition and basically cured it. And it's an amazing story too, because like the FDA did the approval in like six weeks or something. Incredible. But I think it's one of the first uses of CRISPR in that kind of context. And then there was a similar case.

[Sam Lessin]

It's the one of one drug is

[Brett Taylor]

like the one of one drug. Right?

[Sam Lessin]

Where it's like you just edit one base pair and you're like, boom, game on.

[Brett Taylor]

And also this a similar, similar use to cure essentially a young woman of blindness who was also there. So that was my, my big takeaway. Science is working. Science is cool. There was, I gotta say, there wasn't a ton of AI ness. You know, like I'm sort of AI

[Sam Lessin]

is being recorded elsewhere.

[Brett Taylor]

The AI backlash. The like, keep the AI at a simmer to not simmer up. The protesting I felt was sort of,

[Dave Morin]

we gotta get over this branding problem. What do you think is the answer to the branding problem of AI?

[Brett Taylor]

This is not like a brand. This is like deep existential society problem. I think, honestly, like, I don't think branding is going to solve this.

[Sam Lessin]

Well, no, there's two. So. So two things. One is you say, whose brand fault is this? And it's like, actually, this was the entire marketing strategy, right? If you think about it like, the irony of the whole thing is everyone's like, everyone hates that. Is like, well, your money raising strategy has been to run around, including the places like Washington, and be like, this is so dangerous. This is so dangerous. And we're going to win it. So you have to like, do whatever.

[Brett Taylor]

We need a trillion dollars.

[Sam Lessin]

So when you do that, like, obviously you leaned into it, like you literally took the knife and like stabbed yourself immediately. And it's like, of course you were burning. The thing is, it is quite deep. I got a colonoscopy last week.

[Dave Morin]

Congratulations.

[Brett Taylor]

I've got quite deep. Well, bring up any opportunity to mention this fact. It was very deep day.

[Sam Lessin]

I was about to go under and the male nurse is there and they're like, checking me in. And he's like, what do you do? And I'm like, I do technology stuff. And he's like, do you do AI? And I'm like, honestly, no, not really good. He's like, AI is bad. And I'm like, why do you feel that way? He's like, it's taking the jobs, it's taking the water, and its answers are bad. And I'm like, well, that's a very complete list.

[Dave Morin]

That's what everyone thinks. It's crazy. Reese Witherspoon put this thing on Instagram this week, which is just like, wow, I'm so interested in what's happening with AI. And women are pretty far behind on the learning curve here. And I'm like, curious to help them. And she got so much backlash. It was like, yeah. And I'm like, so she, she responded well, I think, which was sort of

[Sam Altman]

like, what was the backlash?

[Dave Morin]

Same thing. It's taking jobs. Like, you're behind all these companies. This, you're just speaking your own book, like, AI is ruining the world, blah, blah, blah.

[Sam Lessin]

The coloroscopy guy was resigned. It was going to happen anyway, though. So there was that.

[Dave Morin]

That's the thing. It is. And also I think it is problematic for women, right? And men. But a lot of women who Reese is just trying to like, inform of what's are like no, I'm not learning, I'm against it. And, and, and I think just having an open mind right now is the only way to be.

[Sam Lessin]

And experimenting, building your own stuff.

[Brett Taylor]

Yeah, yeah. Well, everyone knows where we stand on this question. Hello. But no, it's a, it's an important theme. We probably, I, I don't think it will, it won't be published by the time this airs, but we have a very well known figure in the tech industry who's writing an op ed for us laying out an entirely new tax regime, aiming to address this very issue.

[Dave Morin]

Right.

[Brett Taylor]

Aiming to compensate people displaced by tokens essentially. So I haven't read it in full yet and I think it's going to be complicated. But the fact you're seeing people now try and put these proposals into the

[Sam Lessin]

ether, it's like UBI type bullshit.

[Brett Taylor]

Yeah, it's a little UBI. It's not that UBI, but it's a little bit UBI.

[Sam Lessin]

This has been the answer for 20 years. It's like the jobs will go away because of technology and UBI is the solution. And I just, I so don't buy it. I think it fundamentally misunderstands how people operate. Right. And like what people care about. The problem is meaning as, as I've shot my mouth off a lot online is the problem is not basic income. The problem is meaning right. You can't just like pay people and make them happy. They'll just be sadder.

[Brett Taylor]

On that note, we have a lot of news so I'm going to shift to the news. But I would say congratulations to Yuri Millen and the whole Breakthrough Price team. It is like a rare event where you can watch Jensen and Elon sitting next to each other just gabbing while like Sam Smith is just like.

[Sam Lessin]

Well my favorite is that my favorite the Elon and Jensen next to each both with their phones up recording the act. I always find that funny. I'm like really? You have to record this? Why?

[Dave Morin]

There's someone that can record it for you.

[Sam Altman]

Everyone's a human man.

[Brett Taylor]

You gotta give credit to Jensen for he managed to create a prize in honor of the Vera Rubin which is the his latest technology.

[Sam Altman]

Great marketer.

[Brett Taylor]

He's a great marketer also. She was an amazing woman. But it got, I mean the information also had ads in the breakthrough prize because we are proud supporters and run media from the event. But Jensen also got an ad in creating his Vera Rubin award.

[Sam Lessin]

So can I ask one question on this before we move on my news? One of my news systems that was, you know, picked up this, like, Jensen losing his shit moment. What was that? What happened?

[Sam Altman]

It was a podcast interview. Yeah, it was a podcast interview.

[Sam Lessin]

And he just completely lost it. Cause that's always fun.

[Brett Taylor]

I don't know if he lost it, but the.

[Sam Altman]

He was angry.

[Dave Morin]

What made him angry?

[Sam Altman]

He gave it. He gave an interview. I didn't watch the whole thing.

[Brett Taylor]

Dwarkesh.

[Sam Altman]

I don't even know what the question was that Dwarkesh asked.

[Brett Taylor]

The question was about whether how he felt about arming China with more chips.

[Dave Morin]

Right.

[Brett Taylor]

So sort of like a national security kind of argument. And Jensen responded with how he always does, saying something like, well, they already have 60% of the chips, or something like that. Trying to say that, like, there's nothing new about selling into China. And Dwarkesh, who's a very smart person, pointed out they don't have that percentage of the flops, you know, so it sort of. The chips. Doesn't matter. The power of the chips, the computing is what matters. And he got frustrate. I didn't actually listen to it, so I don't know if that was the exact moment he got frustrated. But this is what people are talking about. And they're talking about the fact, which is fair, that how many times have people asked Jensen this very question? And if you're not sort of technical enough to push back on his answer, you don't get to the truth. And so it was held up as, I think, a very great example of how these interviewers need to be as informed as possible. And again, you'll have people who are technical experts, you have people who aren't. But Jensen wasn't used to getting that pushback.

[Sam Altman]

The thing that Sam's bot picked up, though, was this other thing where he said, I didn't wake up a loser today.

[Sam Lessin]

Yeah, what was that? That was quite a long.

[Brett Taylor]

Sorry, I'm out of touch here.

[Sam Altman]

What is that from? I don't know what the question was, but, you know, Jensen just said, I didn't wake up a loser today. I'm not a loser. You know, it was like a. It was pretty intense.

[Brett Taylor]

These folks are intense. And it's, you know, it's a tense time. It's an exuberant time. It's a tense time. So let's turn our attention to Apple, because as expected, as reported in the information and Bloomberg, give credit where credit is due.

[Sam Lessin]

Did you break it?

[Brett Taylor]

We didn't break. Well, we.

[Sam Altman]

This has been going on for a long time.

[Brett Taylor]

Let's just say the information and Bloomberg both did what you call a slightly cover your ass at the end of last year kind of reporting thing where you know it's gonna happen, but you sort of write stories that hedge up the wazoo. So, no, we didn't on. No one broke the news on the actual day, but we in Bloomberg had reporting that this transition was transpiring, likely in this timeframe. Although lately, for what it's worth, there was some sense, maybe the timeframe was different. But I. The second Tim Cook went on, I believe, Good Morning America and said, apple will always be a part of my heart or something to that effect, I'm like, oh, he's got a week or two left, because there's no reason to do that.

[Dave Morin]

That was just a misspeak.

[Brett Taylor]

No, no, it's. No, it's. It's exactly what he wants because.

[Sam Altman]

Or a tell.

[Brett Taylor]

No, it's all part of the plan because this is a transition plan with John Ternus, who to talk about taking over as CEO and Tim Cook staying on as executive chairman and Tim taking on some of the. Going to the White House. Diplomatic kind of roles. And so I think it's exactly. You know, you never want to look like your CEO's jumping ship, particularly as you face new challenges in the business ecosystem. So I think it was all part of this continuity of. Don't worry, guys. Tim's upstairs. Tim's in the house.

[Sam Altman]

I'm glad you said that.

[Dave Morin]

Dave and I have a bigger picture. We talked about it at Date Night Live last night.

[Sam Lessin]

Okay.

[Dave Morin]

I want to hear it because we're like the Apple people, right?

[Brett Taylor]

I'm giving you the microphone.

[Sam Altman]

Well, I think that it was interesting that everybody was writing these articles that Tim Cook stepped down when my framing for this is Tim Cook stepped up.

[Brett Taylor]

That's exactly what Apple wants you to think.

[Sam Altman]

Well, but it's true, right? There was.

[Brett Taylor]

An exec chairman is nowhere close. An exec chairman is someone who's going to play a lot more golf, but is going to show up, you know, a couple times a year for needed and is going to mentor the CEO in process. That's what it is.

[Sam Altman]

Yeah, but exec chairman and chairman are very different titles, and there was no exec chairman above Tim Cook. So I think that it's really important to look at this differently, that, you know, the CEO job that John Ternus is inheriting is not the CEO job that Tim Cook inherited. Like, this is more of an Alphabet moment, I think, for Apple. Like, this is a $3 trillion, $4 trillion company that is, you know, has an enormously important capital allocation function at the very top. I view this as like a bigger structural move for Apple than people are sort of writing about it. I think you're right. People are just like taking the exact line and message that Apple wants them to say. But this to me looks much more like what happened with Alphabet, you know, what happened with Meta, et cetera. In that Apple's actually sort of shifting into the scale that it actually has always been, but is going to do it more seriously now. And Tim would otherwise take the chairman title and instead he's taking the executive chairman title which implies.

[Brett Taylor]

Do you think it's a function of Turnus not being ready?

[Sam Altman]

No.

[Sam Lessin]

Well, it's also just a way if they get it wrong, then they can undo it. Right?

[Sam Altman]

Yeah, it's a big move.

[Sam Lessin]

I mean to me it's more like the thing I would buy. Dave is like they, he wants to be done. But to your point, it is a big transition. There haven't been that many in the history of the companies and if you're executive chairman then if shit goes wrong you can step back in.

[Sam Altman]

Yeah, it's not, it's not a full transition. I think that's what's, it's very interesting.

[Sam Lessin]

Yeah.

[Sam Altman]

So turn is very different. Absolutely.

[Sam Lessin]

He's like, I did really well. I created 4 trillion knowledge of value. I'm going to kick myself up. Good luck with the AI problem. If it goes badly, I'm back and if you do it great, then wonderful.

[Dave Morin]

That's what I was going to say. I'm like, it went from 350 billion when he started to 4 trillion now. And like the silicone stuff, the wearables and like by the way, I think and inflation, the services. Apple TV plus is like really underrated you guys. I think, I think that was one of ten.

[Sam Lessin]

I mean that's at least a trillion dollars right there.

[Brett Taylor]

You know how much money Apple TV plus loses? I don't care.

[Dave Morin]

It brings me happiness.

[Brett Taylor]

And it is a money pit to

[Dave Morin]

anyone matter because they're selling. So it's like so much at Google is money.

[Sam Altman]

Everybody gets to have lost leaders. Like.

[Dave Morin]

Yeah. I'm just saying the quality of what he created is and is actually I

[Sam Lessin]

think that the real story on all this is we're just living in a, a totally post any sort of financial model reality. Right. The markets and the economy are so fundamentally disconnected at this point. People are looking to stuff money and things and they have theories on that and like it's just kind of wild. So the through line of Apple being a 4 trillion dollar company, which is incredible company, is it 10x better than it was? That's the question. Right? Like that versus how you think about Tesla which just reported, I think any of these things. It's just wild to me how disconnected stores of value are right where you stuff the money versus like the economy right now. Right. So.

[Sam Altman]

But Sam, Apple sells a lot of computers.

[Sam Lessin]

Yeah, it's a great company. It's a great company. I'm not like, I mean I'm starting by a hundred thousand dollars of Apple products in my office. Like, like I'm get, I get it. But you know, my only point is like when you look at like what's happened in the last decade of asset prices, yes, a lot of these companies got bigger and more successful and the world's a really big place. But there's also just like this unbelievable asset tailwind. Completely disconnected from any sort of reality in the markets and I'm sorry, in the economy also.

[Brett Taylor]

So a couple thoughts about Turnus. So you know, he's been VP for hardware engineering. He's been getting more and more responsibilities including like taking over like the transitions of like key chips and architectures and that kinds of stuff. He's known as being way more like calm than some of the like other bombastic types like Schiller.

[Dave Morin]

Eddie. I like that word.

[Brett Taylor]

I mean Apple's got a lot of sort of hot heads under the surface. But also the reason I don't, I don't think you know the sense and believe me, we've talked to a lot of people over two or three years about this is also that there was no one else. I mean the other. Not that Ternus isn't great and was clearly anointed and put on this path.

[Sam Altman]

You could see him doing and he's a Marin boy.

[Brett Taylor]

You could see him doing more speaking engagements like all of that kind of stuff. But also, you know, Craig Federici would have kind of been the other guy has been, you know, much more overseeing on the software and AI and you know, has his detractors too. So I, I don't think Apple has a lot of option value here. They're not going to run a search and hire a CEO from another company to run Apple unless they're like covering, I don't know. There's always Brett Taylor and their fiduciary duty. Brett Taylor, okay, that was a, that was a stretch comment, but yep. So anyway I, I think they're well set up the other side of this is Tim had been telling everyone he knows how tired he is for years and how he doesn't want the job anymore and How Exhau Many CEOs are prone to do the same thing. That is hardly make him unique. You know this is, I think this is both a passing of a reins while keeping some adult supervision around and I think that is specifically for continuity on some of these issues that are going to be mega issues. Relationship with the US government, relationship with the Chinese government. These are high, high, high stakes issues. I mean Ternus, if he's CEO of Apple for a decade, a decade plus is going to oversee the like growing US China tech war. You know we like to Nvidia being in the middle of that. Apple is in the middle of that. So that's actually my biggest question. Not like what does he think about AI? Like yeah, maybe he'll decide to build an in house model. Probably not. I think they've kind of set their course there. But I'm very keen and I think it will still be very much a cook call. You know how they're deciding what are they doing with their manufacturing, what are they doing with their China business and how they tow like a shrinking tightrope there. But big transition. Big transition, yeah.

[Sam Altman]

I mean Apple is a technology. Well Apple is a hardware company and competitiveness in hardware is extremely difficult. Like I thought it was a TV company.

[Sam Lessin]

Pointing to Brett.

[Dave Morin]

I didn't say it was a tv. I mean I said I enjoy the TV part of it. I just want to give Tim cred, that's all.

[Brett Taylor]

Margo's money problems. Brett started it good by the way.

[Dave Morin]

By the way, does Sam watch? Because only fans is the center of this thing it is all about.

[Brett Taylor]

I've only watched one episode.

[Dave Morin]

Oh, wait till episode two.

[Brett Taylor]

There are too many women in it for Sam. There are two.

[Dave Morin]

Oh, but he'll start liking it. There are boobs.

[Sam Lessin]

I do love boobs. There's amazing how central OnlyFans is to culture right now.

[Sam Altman]

And like six TV shows Euphoria is all about it. The whole thing industry.

[Sam Lessin]

They're all about only fans.

[Brett Taylor]

It's not my culture. Not my culture.

[Dave Morin]

I died earlier. Back to hardware.

[Sam Altman]

Well, I was just saying that Apple the hardware cycles are insanely competitive. Like you have to stay on an extremely serious timeline in order to stay at the the frontier of hardware and in silicon. And so I think that the in that way this choice is extremely obvious. Like you can't, you can't choose the software people. They are not under the same Timelines and same pressure that drive the fundamental business of Apple on a global basis. And so you, you have a very narrow set of internal choices that you can choose from. And I think people don't often doing analysis from the outside don't think about this. They think like oh, the software guys could do it too. And it's like, no, actually the software guys are on a completely different schedule. Like they make updates every few years, they do a release once a year. But they have a totally different set of competitive problems than the hardware guys do. And the negotiation of the supply chain and the manufacturing facilities and the entire sort of global thing that makes makes the billion iPhones show up in people's pockets all over the world is like a pretty wildly competitive and insanely difficult thing to be good at. And so I think you have a pretty narrow if not obvious choice that you have to make here if you're going to do this internally like you said.

[Brett Taylor]

Yeah, I think the bigger. It's an excellent point, Dan. And I think the writings was really in the card when Dan Riccio, who had run hardware kind of sort of got pushed out, stepped aside after multiple in and outs a couple years ago from a succession standpoint. So that is well said. Well, we will be watching. We will be commenting. John, you're welcome on the pod anytime.

[Sam Altman]

I just love that he's a Marin guy and he's, you know, I think it's pretty awesome that us that a local Marin guy became CEO of Apple. It's pretty good.

[Brett Taylor]

That's quite a commute. If I were CEO of Apple, I'd not commute from Marin to Cupertino.

[Sam Altman]

He's not, I don't think he lives here, but he grew up here.

[Brett Taylor]

Okay, got it.

[Sam Lessin]

They'll claim him.

[Brett Taylor]

We're going to start to have like, you know, Mere woods operating systems or something.

[Dave Morin]

I don't know. Yeah, he was definitely inspired by the redwoods.

[Sam Altman]

Let's hope so.

[Brett Taylor]

Okay, I want to talk about this trial. We if you've been under a rock or there has been a lot of news, you may have forgotten that this upcoming Monday is scheduled to be the start of the Elon Musk vs OpenAI trial. The central question of which was did OpenAI have the right to convert from a nonprofit to a for profit and what should Elon be compensated as? Well, having been one of the backers of the nonprofit.

[Sam Lessin]

So from a first principles perspective, I'm

[Sam Altman]

totally with you on this for what it's worth.

[Brett Taylor]

Yeah, but the law is. Okay, say more Sam.

[Sam Lessin]

But well, this is one of the greatest tricks the devil ever pulled, right? Was basically like, and it's less about the money and more about kind of the whole stance of the industry which is opening this conversion of being like, oh, we're just doing a research project, don't worry, we're scraping the entire Internet. But it's just for good. It's just for a research project. And then flipping that into oh no, actually it isn't. I just think was like an unbelievable bait and switch. Right? And I think it's less about the money, candidly, and more about the fact that I think almost every rights holder, right, would have said no effing way if it had been transparent what they were going to do and they were going to become a for profit. Whereas everyone kind of was like, okay and look the other way. It's the same thing with like a lot of the talent. I mean, I think, look, it's all worked out, but the pitch of OpenAI early to all these researchers was like, don't work at Google or, or meta. Those are like dirty for profit companies. Come here and work on research and we'll support your research. This is very like la la, open ended, good for the world thing. And that was a big part of the pitch. And then like switching it I think was very, very disingenuous.

[Dave Morin]

And like the donate, it was like what, 130 or 50 million that they raised?

[Sam Lessin]

That that's like less. I mean that, that is how this manifests. But I'm just saying, like I, I think there's a question of what's legal and like what they did. And then there's a question of like the, I'm like less. I think the money is less important. I think it's more like the structural bait and switch and the data, the promises.

[Brett Taylor]

So some stuff has come out already in discovery and OpenAI basically argues like, look, we were multiple times like you know, a. There was more optionality explored and even discussed with Elon back in the day, including making this part of Tesla and other things. So they are trying to establish that this was not a bait and switch and that they sort of always posited that there would be different potential corporate structures as they needed more capital, which was ultimately what happened. I mean none of us are lawyers, but I can tell you both sides are definitely positing that they have bulletproof cases here still. And this is a dangerous thing to say because we're taping sort of midweek ahead of Monday, but I think there is a greater than not chance that they settle before then or that they postpone.

[Sam Altman]

I was going to say, is this thing going to even. Is this thing even going to get to trial?

[Brett Taylor]

I mean, I don't know. This is not a reporting. This is just purely a hunch. But I think that OpenAI can't afford the distractions. They can't.

[Sam Altman]

And does it really just come down to money?

[Brett Taylor]

Like, so what's happened, through many twists and turns and pieces have been thrown out. And so. And so is that Musk has said he will donate the damages owed to him to. Basically, it wouldn't technically be a donation, but to the OpenAI Foundation. So he is not. He is not asking to be left with, like, a piece of this operating company or, like, cash in his bank account. He's basically saying this is now a dispute over what percentage of the foundation, which.

[Sam Lessin]

It's power. And look, these guys are all rich enough, they don't care.

[Brett Taylor]

And look, he just wants to.

[Sam Lessin]

It's power.

[Brett Taylor]

Gears in the sand of Open AI, so.

[Sam Lessin]

And it's the mma. It's the MMA theory or the WWE theory of Silicon Valley. This is nothing to do. Elon. If Elon were to take money from this, it's a bad look, because I

[Sam Altman]

think I've heard of that theory.

[Sam Lessin]

Oh, yeah? The what? The W. This, like, half your theory. Are you kidding?

[Brett Taylor]

No, he's.

[Dave Morin]

Joseph is a joke.

[Sam Lessin]

It's like, here's the thing. It's like, this is just characters playing a game. And, like, here's the reality. The irony is let's pretend Elon got, like, a $20 billion or even $100 billion settlement. Elon Shtick is that he's so rich, he doesn't care. Right. And so to accept a settlement, it's

[Sam Altman]

not just a shtick, Sam.

[Sam Lessin]

No, no. But, like, I mean, that's my point. Like, the image has to be that I am so rich and powerful that I couldn't possibly care about this pittance from OpenAI personally.

[Sam Altman]

So is it a moral point?

[Dave Morin]

I think it's just competitive, Nate. Yeah. Just taking their time and attention, the brand.

[Sam Altman]

But, like, the money goes to the other side of the OpenAI balance sheet. Like, the OpenAI foundation number go up. Like, it's not up.

[Sam Lessin]

All it is, it's just ego, and it's just people wanting to look more powerful and less powerful. It's like, if Elon loses, the gamble for Elon is just. Is just like, do you look less powerful? Right. The gamble for Sam and OpenAI is the same. Right. Which is like, and Sam, I think can open AI want to.

[Sam Altman]

But why does it even matter? What, why does it matter? Just gamesmanship.

[Sam Lessin]

Because everything's priced on narrative. Right. Like that's the irony of the whole thing is like if Elon shows once again that Elon is bulletproof and what he says happens right then like he can price Tesla at $1.75 trillion and he's like the bulletproof man. It has nothing to do with money. It has to do with narrative.

[Sam Altman]

It's interesting.

[Sam Lessin]

There's risk in that. And I think on the, on the OpenAI side, it's kind of the same thing, which is like they set themselves up as the. This is my big thing about the moment for them is like they set themselves up as the far and away leader in AI that no one could touch. And that's why anthropic touching them on and passing them them potentially they have an already on revenue. Such a big deal. It's not because opening that doesn't matter. The story is not, oh, someone passed you. The story is we've been telling the story that we're untouchable and we're touchable. Right. And like once you've been touched once, you can be touched again. Right. And so everything is again. I just think we have to embrace the reality, which is that this tectonic tech level, the highest end the game doesn't even have to do with cash flow. It doesn't have to do with traditional business metrics. It is literally just like warring city states that thrive on narrative. Right. And storytelling.

[Brett Taylor]

Yeah. So, and I think Elon has to be able to declare a victory here

[Sam Lessin]

in some way shape or formal than Trump and Iran.

[Dave Morin]

And what happens if he doesn't get the victory? But let's say it goes to open

[Brett Taylor]

AI, he needs to find a way to claim it. And I think he'll be able to because I think it'll be in OpenAI's interest to give him something. You know, you don't want all these people taking the stand. Although it's kind of funny to think of Elon taking the stand, to be honest.

[Sam Lessin]

It's very similar to like the Iran situation. You get people who like brinksmanship them way into like a really tough place. Right. And like one might. And like it's just, you know, Iran can only end with a framework where Donald Trump can take take a win. It just can't end otherwise. Right. And like it'll be the same with this.

[Brett Taylor]

Yeah. Well, the other and I think related to that is remember Elon is about to pull off potentially the biggest IPO in history. The information reported this week. Not only unsurprisingly is he getting super voting shares in the SpaceX IPO, but he now has has a really aggressive comp plan as well that will give him tens of millions of shares. If I, if I think the market cap goes to 6.6 trillion. I'm not exactly sure at this time. Right.

[Sam Lessin]

Can I ask a question? So because Elon Musk has this plan with Tesla, when they combine them, does he just get the double count?

[Brett Taylor]

This is the great question. No, he probably will. This is probably the biggest proof that he'll combine them. But we'll have to read the fine point.

[Sam Lessin]

Unless someone wrote to the contract being like, you can't combine them. Don't you get to hit both numbers by just merging?

[Brett Taylor]

I think you do.

[Sam Lessin]

I mean, I think I 100% think you do. And like what a play where you're like, oh, you like kind of get down to like the contract details matter. Like yeah, yeah, I need the market cap to hit this. I didn't say I couldn't get it by merging a bunch of shit together.

[Brett Taylor]

In the confidential S one that the information is reported on and we will continue to. But also you have the news this week that Xai has bought the right to acquire Cursor for up to, for 60 billion or to do a partnership with them. Have we ever seen a company in the weaker position on the receiving side? I mean, what would. You guys are the deal makers here. But I'm like, you can't even sell yourself with who Cursor. This seems like I think it's a win win.

[Dave Morin]

Why isn't it a win win?

[Sam Altman]

Okay, this is, I think it's a big experiment.

[Brett Taylor]

If you have to experiment when you're cursor. And we're going to be the next gazillion dollar company. That's not good.

[Sam Altman]

No, look, Elon and Xai have a extremely large data center. You know, I can't remember what they call it. Colossus.

[Brett Taylor]

Colossus.

[Sam Altman]

Colossus 1 and 2. So this thing's a really, really high density cluster of H1 hundreds that you know, are extremely rare. Nobody has these things, especially at this size. And the biggest question in AI right now is can you train models which are good at both code and computer use that are competitive with the other models that are out there, I. E. The stuff that Claude's been doing, codecs, et cetera. And what Cursor has that nobody else has is an extremely large traces data set. Like they've got an enormous amount of developers using their. Their software and a huge amount of traces from all of that, all that engineering. And so this is an experiment is the way I understand it, that if they are able to create a coding model which is competitive using Cursor's data set on the Colossus infrastructure, then they will pay 60 billion. Billion. If they cannot, then they will just pay them 10 billion in sort of consulting. You know, we did an experiment together, didn't work out. Thanks for letting us use your data. But if it does work, then the whole thing comes together and, you know, to me it's like, that's what's actually going on here.

[Brett Taylor]

Elon gets to choose. Yeah, okay, so why wouldn't he just raid the talent, raid the data, and

[Sam Lessin]

then you can't get the data because the.

[Dave Morin]

Yeah, you have to have some protections around it.

[Brett Taylor]

But it's going through the data centers. I mean, I don't know, like, we've been in this, like, town.

[Sam Altman]

The traces really matter. Like, it's the whole battleground is the traces right now, like, no, this is kind of a thing nobody's talking about.

[Sam Lessin]

The nice part is, like, you don't. Elon doesn't know he has a year for, you know, SpaceX stock or X to, like, rocket, and then he has a cheaper currency to buy it with. I mean, like you.

[Brett Taylor]

It's brilliant for him. It's brilliant for him.

[Sam Lessin]

I think it's a great deal for him.

[Brett Taylor]

It's a master deal for him.

[Sam Lessin]

Shitty deal for Cursor might be going to zero.

[Sam Altman]

It's a great deal.

[Dave Morin]

I don't think it's a shitty deal for Cursor. Cursor was like, totally on the way out. And what was their last valuation? 9, 10, something like that?

[Sam Lessin]

No, I think it was like 20.

[Dave Morin]

Well, it was way overvalued for what it was bringing in.

[Brett Taylor]

What if they turned down all that venture capital in their latest round instead? And then Elon's like, no, I'm good. It doesn't matter.

[Dave Morin]

They've just raised 10 billion new dollars. Like, if they raised 10 on a hundred billion, that'd be the same amount of like, a round.

[Sam Lessin]

There's no scenario where Cursor is worth $60 billion anytime soon. It's in the opposite direction. And so here's the. Also on the flip side, do you think that in a year, if Elon comes back and says, yeah, it's okay, I'll give you 30 for it. Right. You think they still take that?

[Brett Taylor]

They're gonna. No one's gonna touch it.

[Dave Morin]

Well, no one's gonna touch it, but they would still take it. Third, they would take 30, not 60. Is what is.

[Sam Lessin]

Elon has all those leverage. It's perfectly. Because Elon's not gonna pay. He doesn't pay 60.

[Dave Morin]

It's also kind of perfect for Cursor because this is like a great deal for them no matter what I think

[Brett Taylor]

this is not a great deal for them. You guys forget Cursor.

[Sam Altman]

Crazy great deal for them.

[Dave Morin]

The three VCs versus the journal journalist.

[Sam Lessin]

Cursor might be worth zero, right? It very likely might be worth zero.

[Sam Altman]

And cursor does not have Colossus. They do not have counting Cursor out

[Dave Morin]

as of like two weeks ago.

[Brett Taylor]

No, but this is. We're saying the same thing as of the situation they are in, this is the best they could expect. And the fact that a company that was the darling of Silicon Valley but six months ago was, you know, named as one of the only AI native companies companies besides the big ones that had a shot is now in a position where the most powerful, enigmatic, toughest negotiator on the planet gets to decide if he wants to buy them. I don't think is a great outcome. It may be the best outcome of this moment, but I think the arc of them. And if you only have to go back six months to seeing how they were the only company uttered in the breath of this coding disruption, how far they have fallen.

[Dave Morin]

But that's what shifted.

[Brett Taylor]

Yes, that's what shifted.

[Sam Lessin]

Two things they make. One is for the Earl. I only care about the early stage investors. And God bless Neo fun the part. Ollie's crushing it, right? Like, you know, like so whoever. I love the person who picked up 200k of SBF stock.

[Sam Altman]

Do you see?

[Sam Lessin]

Did you see this whole thing?

[Dave Morin]

Yeah.

[Sam Lessin]

Someone guy bought. Someone bought the SBF 200k from the original seed and it's worth like $30 billion now. Like once again, great investor SBF. The early stage guys are fine. Look, the whole. My whole theme on the AI stuff forever has been like, it's impossible to invest in because you're always seconds from getting swiped. And the incumbents are going to win anyway. So forget everything. If you told me they got swiped. If you're like they got swiped from whatever narrative they're on six months ago, which is like as will Harvey and everyone else in the same story. Right? But if you're just like, look, so I think all this is why you can't invest in this stuff. There will be winners, but it'll be random. So you said, hey, you have an average company, it's like four years old. You basically just locked in 10 billion in cash, which is kind of the Facebook deal with scale, by the way. They're like, ah, we'll give you like about 10 billion in cash. Right.

[Brett Taylor]

It's a big number. You're right. That's a big number.

[Sam Lessin]

It's half of WhatsApp. Right. That's the low end. And the high end is who knows, we get to say a headline number, but Elon will pick the price later. You're kind of like, I don't know. I just. Fine. Like, I think that's a great outcome for a company that could be worth zero in six months.

[Brett Taylor]

Do you think there's a scenario where Elon says, no, thank you, they get the 10 billion and then Amazon's like, oh, just kidding. We'll pay you 60 or 70.

[Sam Lessin]

Like, they'll be like 22. They'll pay like 2.

[Brett Taylor]

Yeah. So. But that's not good. Well, anyway, time they got $12 billion in outcome.

[Sam Altman]

The company's not worth zero. That. So the thing is, the company's not worth zero because the data is extremely valuable.

[Brett Taylor]

No one's arguing it's worth zero. But the fact that we're say we're. The fact of your optimism is based on the fact it's not worth zero is not exactly a ringing endorsement. Well, it's also.

[Sam Lessin]

But it's also. Dave, this is. It's. It's worth. It's not. The problem is how many people is it worth anything to. Right. Is a very small number of people who. It's. It's a very small set of people for whom it's worth anything, but it's

[Sam Altman]

worth a lot to this narrow set of people. I think you would have seen OpenAI or Anthropic buy it as well.

[Dave Morin]

Like, but they don't need it now because people are.

[Sam Altman]

They do.

[Dave Morin]

People are switching. A lot of the people.

[Brett Taylor]

Let's hear from Dave one more time. What? Because the conventional wisdom is that people are switching and it doesn't have much that's unique, but you, you feel differently. So what is it that they have that can't be replicated?

[Sam Altman]

They got big foundation model companies are out there buying the slack instances of failed startups to get.

[Sam Lessin]

For not very much, but.

[Sam Altman]

Yes, for not very much. Right. But like, the reality is every single model company is out of data and they need more Human generated data in order to make and improve their models. And specifically we have seen Anthropic, specifically in the last six months has, you know, we all know their revenue numbers. They've gone through the roof. And this is based on models that can write code and can use tools that code knows how to use, right. Unix bash. Like being able to generate software using the Unix operating system is like the whole thing driving the most value. It's the reason why I get a call like every other day from somebody like begging me to get into Anthropic, you know, invest in Anthropic. Like that is what is driving that. And they too still need more data to improve the model's ability to write code. The only place you can get that is from being in the work stream of software engineers. And specifically now it is in the, what we call traces in the industry, which is the actual like what the software engineer used as their prompt, what the response of the model was like. There is a sort of private set of data that is extremely valuable to the model companies right now for improving the coding models. And Cursor has a huge one.

[Sam Lessin]

So yes, for now. But the. So yes, the question is, but when you're selling companies for their data sets, you're selling them for scrap, right? Like that's what it comes down to. And like you can do it like,

[Sam Altman]

but not in this category, Sam. Like this specific category. It has extreme value.

[Sam Lessin]

If you have a category that's Evergreen, where people are using it more and more and more. So you have a compounding data asset that's always going to be refreshed cash. If Cursor has zero users in six months, they still have a data asset that they can sell a few times. It's just not that val, it's like. And it's not worth zero, but it's like it's worth a hell of a lot less than actually having a scaling thing the argument uses.

[Sam Altman]

Well, it's worth $10 billion.

[Sam Lessin]

Like we actually have a price to Elon at. At a. At it with an unknown currency. But yes, yes, if you're gonna. If you can. The way I would frame it is it's worth whatever the division is of 10 billion over 2 trillion billion. Right. Which is an infinitesimally small number. But I don't want to do in my head, right, like that's what it really is because it's all made up number.

[Brett Taylor]

Can I share something funny? I just wanted to check that my memory of Anthropic's revenue being at 30 billion is correct. So I just typed into Google and first it's funnily says. Did you mean anthropic revenue? 30 million. Like Google cannot believe that billion is accurate.

[Dave Morin]

Why do you go to Google first and not.

[Sam Altman]

But that's because LLMs are bad at numbers, Jeff.

[Brett Taylor]

But the next, the first three entries are TITV videos. So way to go team on SEO.

[Sam Altman]

It might be just because it's your computer.

[Dave Morin]

Yeah, Google has probably and what you like in the algorithm.

[Brett Taylor]

Well, it's still pretty good. It's still pretty good. And the next one is just the anthropic webpage. So it also is a sign then Google likes video in the nature of

[Dave Morin]

companies needing more data. Meta now tracking everything its employees do and all the keystrokes that they do on their computers.

[Sam Lessin]

No, it's fine. For what it's worth. Again, I gotta say, this is. Can I do it? Can I do a traditional Sam rant on this?

[Sam Altman]

Oh my God, Sam's gonna bring us the. The Finn rant. Like, I've heard this rant.

[Sam Lessin]

You know me well. Like, we were doing this like ten plus years ago. This is like literally what we did at Finn is we basically built this human loop system with a queue and then we tracked exactly what we're doing with full video as well as the full DOM click stream on everything. And we were using it. The irony, Dave, of data sets being valuable is candidly, if you unrolled the fin data set from 10 years ago of operations agents clicking all this shit, doing real human tasks for years for real people, that probably was worth a shitload of money. Right? Like so. But the answer is like, obviously this is where you go like, this is like a total. And by the way people were upset.

[Dave Morin]

Is every company going to do this now? Like, is Meta setting a precedent?

[Sam Altman]

Well, no companies that need to train computer.

[Sam Lessin]

I know.

[Dave Morin]

Okay, well all. I mean those.

[Sam Lessin]

But that's everyone. Like the companies. First of all, companies already do this in like rudimentary stupid ways. Like, they do this in like where they do the thing where like you move your mouse to like is someone at their desk. The. The upper version of this, which is like. And you're tracking the DOM using the web, you're videoing them. We did that at thin for our own teams. We did that for third parties like Airbnb and a bunch of other people and operations team to start automating and streamlining work. This is an old playbook. It's just so funny because the traditional standard is, man, we actually did have this, right? We were just 10 years early.

[Sam Altman]

It's still not great though. Like it doesn't feel, it feels penopty.

[Dave Morin]

I want to know how the employees feel.

[Sam Altman]

Do you want to work under that?

[Brett Taylor]

They do not feel good. I mean, I've read articles saying that there. Some are not too happy about it

[Dave Morin]

and they're doing all these layoffs in the same time. It's sort of like a big, a big blow up.

[Sam Lessin]

What they're doing like what people already are doing. We know this is like they're creating these sims and having people like make investment banking models and then watch them, right? Like this is like literally.

[Sam Altman]

What do you mean, Sam?

[Sam Lessin]

What's that?

[Sam Altman]

I think explain this to, to the listener. I'm not sure I understand business.

[Sam Lessin]

Like this is what Garrett's company does, right? Is they like they build up a simul. Like they build up a workspace for

[Sam Altman]

people with Garrett's company. Handshake.

[Sam Lessin]

Handshake. And like this is what Scale did or whatever is. You build up like an environment and you're like, I need to figure out how investment bankers work. So I'm going to hire a bunch of investment bankers and I'm going to have them do their job. And I say build models, right? And I'm going to watch them, I'm going to like do the clickstream, understand what they're doing, and that's how I create the data set to then automate the shit out of it. And then they just pay the people to do it. All this is, is a logical extension, which is, wait a minute, I'm already paying people all day long to do these things. Why will we not capture the data exhaust while we're at it to do the same thing, right? Like so it's, it's, there's this, it's a vanishingly small difference.

[Dave Morin]

I feel like the employees should get a cut of the ultimate value of the data.

[Sam Lessin]

But this is the problem, Brit, with all this stuff is like, it's the same thing with someone who's like, if you go to an investment banker, right? And you're like, hey, I'm gonna give you an environment. I'd like you to build some models for me, investment banker. And I'm gonna watch you. That guy's like, cool, I'll do it for 100 bucks. By definition, they're like giving away the secrets of what they do and putting all their friends out of a job.

[Dave Morin]

But the problem is these employees were already hired at Meta and they didn't. They weren't told when the time they were being hired. And by the way, at some point we're going to start tracking literally everything you do on your computer.

[Sam Lessin]

But it's like, fundamentally, the company's paying for their time. I mean, I. Here's an interesting argument. You know, there's this big argument in Silicon Valley for ages about whether most tech workers really should be paid by the hour versus salaried, right? And the argument is, is that if you are not a manager by like, the letter of the strict law, you're supposed to be paid for your work by the hour. Right. In, like, most legal frameworks. And so the argument has always been, well, these individual engineers or people doing stuff like it's, you know, their salary, they get a stock options, but really you should just be paying by the hour legally. This might push in that direction where you're like, yeah, yeah, like, literally these people are just like training systems for you by the hour. So, like, you should just pay them by the hour for their work so that you're scraping it and building models, hold off of it, which is what you're doing for the investment bankers anyway.

[Dave Morin]

I'm just saying it feels weird.

[Sam Altman]

I mean, the data is going to have to come from somewhere. Like, computer use models are less than 40% effective right now. And the coding models use the terminal, they use bash, and they're extremely effective. But it's like all of the computer use models are truly bad right now. So the only way we're going to get there is with some kind of something like this.

[Brett Taylor]

So let's recap. Cap. We're going to be telling people that, hey, what did your colonoscopy attendant say about AI? It's not going to be very good. It's going to take your job.

[Sam Lessin]

It's going to take your job, it's

[Brett Taylor]

going to increase your energy prices, and it's going to spy on you. We have a problem. Houston. We have what it is.

[Sam Lessin]

This is what we signed up for. Like what, by the way, the open AI story. I would argue this goes back to our. Where we started, which is the nonprofit thing, which is like, hey, if you told everyone on the Internet, right, you publish all this content, you put stuff out there, and a group came and said, hey, we're going to take it all and like, remake a model so that we don't need to, like, use any of your images ever again because we can just create images on the fly and we don't need to ever use your writing anymore because we can just make it all ourselves. They'd be like, absolutely not. Right. The bait and switch was they went out and said, well, we're just doing research, so don't worry about it. This is for the good of humanity. And they flipped it around. And I think it's exactly the same thing. If you said, if you said to them, computer workers, don't worry, we promise we're not going to replace you. We're just doing research that's good for everyone. You'd be like, oh, well, maybe it's okay to watch me. If you're like, hey, actually, let's be honest. Honest. I'm like, just going to watch your click stream and then back you out of the equation in eight months, people are going to be super pissed. Right. So there's just like a level of honesty, I think. Right. That you just got to confront about this stuff.

[Brett Taylor]

Yeah. The flip side would be that business, all businesses evolve and you can't. Like, is it breaking the law to. Now this is a big pivot. I. I'm just arguing, but I'm arguing that side for the sake of it, not because I believe one of these other.

[Sam Lessin]

I think the problem is, like, a lot of stuff might not be technically breaking the law. It's just. Just not like the law cannot keep up with reality. The law did not anticipate this. Right.

[Brett Taylor]

Like, anticipate this. The law should have known.

[Sam Lessin]

But no, the law never knows. And that's kind of the whole thing.

[Brett Taylor]

And it's probably going to know less and less if we're on the current state and course of artificial intelligence. Friends, what's cooking before we wrap, what should we leave the. The people with this weekend?

[Sam Lessin]

I gotta say, I had a great time with AI.

[Sam Altman]

Yeah, I mean, I guess that's like the thing that. Jess, you heard me give a speech last week.

[Brett Taylor]

Oh, I forgot to say how exceptional it was. Guys. Dave, I'm so glad you brought this up. Dave, you know, it takes a lot. Most times I step on stage, I'm interviewing someone or I'm being interviewed. Dave, at a very prominent event, just stepped up to the microphone and told the amazing story of where CLAW is today and some of the origins. I was very proud of you, Dave, and you really commanded that room. And I think you should really. I know, like, it's not easy for anyone to do that. And Brit, I imagine you helped with some of the writing because we did scripting together, but it's crazy stressful and I think it takes. And I presume you weren't even given a format, so you Were like I had a blank slate. And you created a great narrative and I felt so proud. So well done.

[Sam Altman]

Thank you.

[Brett Taylor]

That was so long ago now.

[Sam Altman]

Yeah. But, you know, I guess like one of the things that I've been thinking about along the lines of all of this, and Sam, I read your essay about meaning and, and I think that there's a counter narrative that needs to emerge, which is that the, the thing that gives people meaning is agency, like their ability to create what they want to create. And if you look at the sheer, like the number of people that use software in the world right now, it's around whatever 6 billion, right. People are using software. There's only 50 million people that, that write software in the world. And the idea that AI is, is going to unlock tens of millions of more people, if not hundreds of millions of more people to create software that the 6 billion people use to me is like an incredibly powerful story. Like. And Sam, I know you've done some events recently to teach people that don't know how to, you know, use software and how to, how to make things with AI. You know, we had 3,000 students show up last week and at the University of Michigan on Thursday night for ClockCon, the University of Michigan is launching an institute for agentic computing. And you know, 3,000 students that feel deeply empowered by this new software called OpenClaw that enables you to build any software that you want for any reason. Like, to me that's like, really, really inspiring. And you know, I'm hearing stories now every day of people that have built a small business stuff that's like really basic. Like, we've got this guy in Switzerland that used Open Claw to brew beer. And then the. It built him a website and it set up Stripe and now he's got a lobster lager that he's selling on, you know, on the Internet. And he doesn't care. He's, I think 70. He doesn't care that any of this was written by code that he doesn't understand. He's just really psyched that he gets to have a relationship with the customers that are drinking his beer. And like, I think that's like really pretty inspiring. And like the idea that this stuff, the like, hard work of like using all the computers that people have done in these like big tech companies, companies kind of starts to go away. Might actually be a really good thing. And that people can create what they want to create. And I don't know, like, I guess I'm just like, I'm far more optimistic that like, we may actually be at a local maximum right now that the inequality that we see in the Meg 7 and in the software stocks in the market is so concentrated into this like priesthood of 50 million people that can write software today. The distribution of more people being able to write software is actually going to be a huge bonus for meaning in the world. And yes, we might lose some jobs that were otherwise moving data around in spreadsheets. But like, I don't know, like, I'm like much more optimistic about this.

[Sam Lessin]

Look, I am very optimistic about the creators that we work with. I mean, like, that was one of the most fun I've had in a long time, was sitting with 30 of them for two days and teaching them how to like set up their own infrastructure and kind of do the last mile so they can actually enable themselves and massively useful and values. I'm all in on on that. For me, the problem is like how consolidated or distributed is the meaning. Right. And it is kind of the purpose. I don't like, Dave, if you have

[Sam Altman]

eight, we give people more agency.

[Sam Lessin]

The question is how many and who. The question is the distribution of it, not like whether the 1% is going to be fine. Right. And by the way, 1% of 8 billion people, still a lot of people. The question is, is it enough? It's a very different model than a model of like having a robust middle class that feels Delta Nepro projects, right? Like the world of like, people who they haven't.

[Sam Altman]

I guess that's the thing is like, they haven't felt like you had to be able to speak this very esoteric computer language in order to be dealt in for the last 30 years.

[Sam Lessin]

You get to be on the marketing team, right? You get to be on all these other things. It's not, it's not just like, I agree that I love software so fun and like, it's never like I'm having a blast. I'm literally. I spent six hours on a flight flying back to California today, coding the entire way. Coding in corporate quotes with. And I worked on like six things and I got like six things done that are all awesome that I wanted it right? So like, I'm all in about the leverage on the tools. It is so fun. But I just, I think the problem is when you scope out, you do just have this fundamental problem, which is the fact that I can do so much more on my own and you can do so much more on your own. Just means we don't need to include as many people. We don't have to Play nicely with others as much. Right?

[Sam Altman]

I don't know. Like, the. The speech that I gave was that, like, When I was 7, my grandfather was put a Macintosh computer on my desk. And that computer costs $6,000, you know, in today's dollars in the mid-80s. And it took a very long time to get those computers to everyone. Right? Like, it took the next 30 years to lower the price and make them more usable, more accessible. I guess my belief is that we're sitting here, these AI tools are still really complicated, very hard to use. Like, you've got to put a room together to teach people how to use. Use this stuff. Right? You're right. Like, not very many people are going to know how to do that. But the march forward is like, how do we make this cheaper? How do we make it actually easy to use for people and, you know, enable the most people to get access to it? And it's just like, to me, it's like, that's what the personal computer was all about. Guys, I am like, we're in the second phase of this.

[Brett Taylor]

I'm going to put a pin in this. I'm going to put a pin in it because it's been a long and great episode, and this topic requires even more revisitation. I don't know if that's a word, by the way.

[Sam Lessin]

While we're talking, I'm building. I'm building my health app right now.

[Dave Morin]

Talking is what Jess is telling you. You guys.

[Brett Taylor]

Guys, we have to end the podcast. When we have to end the podcast, we have shit to do that. But with that, I think we covered some excellent ground. We hit the highlights, we added some new flair. I hope that everyone enjoyed listening to this as much as we clearly enjoyed making it. And we will see you back here next week for another episode of More or Less. Bye.

[Sam Altman]

Thanks, everyone.