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- [00:12]
A
What's up my friend? Welcome back to this episode of the podcast. Jeff Zimfer, your host this episode I'm bringing to you my new friend, Dan Smakowska, who helps the mortgage industry win business with LinkedIn. He's a social selling expert. He is part of the 40 under 40 ranked professionals and co author of the Green Book with me and multiple other leaders in our industry. Rethink everything you know about being a next gen loan officer. Today we are talking with Dan, of course all about LinkedIn because that's what he helps originators and companies do is win with LinkedIn. And what you're going to hear today on this episode is a strategy crash course around coming back to LinkedIn if you've been away from LinkedIn for a while, how to engage, how to leverage some of the different LinkedIn features and functions to drive engagement and to build your personal brand. And what you're going to hear me and Dan do is walk through a real live scenario in which he just recently coached a bunch of loan officers on how to leverage LinkedIn to drive engagement and conversations with clients and referral partners. A couple key takeaways from our conversation is focusing on products more than people. That is your big mistake. So Dan's going to unpack a scenario in which he worked with a loan officer that recently booked three meetings in a week. Two realtors reached out for coffee and another landed a $1.2 million deal in the DMS. How did the loan officers do this? They followed the five day content mix as part of Dan's strategy on LinkedIn. We're going to walk you through this on today's episode. We're going to talk about how to actually move the conversation to the DMs on LinkedIn, how to leverage profile views. When somebody comes to check out your profile, what do you do and what should you not do? And how to actually go out of the mortgage bubble and stop talking about products, stop making your LinkedIn feed a product guideline. That's not what's winning. What's winning is the most human brand. What's winning is personal connections, engagement, meaningful interaction with others. So this is going to be a great kind of crash course. Quick study on how to start leveraging LinkedIn and adding it to your place to connect not only with potential consumers. Right. Remember, you want people who have jobs and they're on LinkedIn, but also LinkedIn is a fantastic platform to do some targeted outreach, both paid and for free to certain individuals that you want to reach as referral partners that includes, yes, real estate agents, but also financial planners, financial advisors, divorce attorneys, and others. So buckle in, get ready for this crash course on how to win on LinkedIn. Dan, welcome to the show.
- [03:05]
B
Good to be here. Good to be here.
- [03:07]
A
It is good to be here today on this historic day. Tuesday, November 5, 2024. Election Day in the United States. How you feeling, man?
- [03:17]
B
Well, I'm glad that we got together because I know that we. We want to spend this entire conversation talking about both sides of the political fence, so. No, man, I'm excited to be here. It's a big day, obviously, for a lot of people. But I'll tell you what, I'd much rather be sitting here listening to us talk. Right, than watching this thing unfold on the news. So I'm happy to be here chatting.
- [03:43]
A
You didn't take the bait. Congratulations. All right, so for those who may not know who you are and what do you do? What would you like to share with the listeners?
- [03:52]
B
Yeah. So my name is Dan Smolkoska. I've been in the mortgage business for 13, 14, somewhere around there years right now. You know, I've kind of had my sort of a history within the mortgage industry. I was, I was in sales. I was in leading marketing teams for some, for some mortgage companies. The last couple years, though, I've been out on my own doing my own thing, mainly proclaiming the good news of LinkedIn and social selling. And so it's been a lot of fun. Sort of my passion is, is to help people, sales teams, and that's like mortgage companies. That's loan officers, that's CEOs, that's tech sales in the mortgage space. Be able to generate revenue through LinkedIn. I think it's the most powerful platform in the world. And so that's what I've been up to, and that's what I love.
- [04:50]
A
Okay, so thank you for that. A lot of people listening, I don't know where they're at. We're at various stages of responding to. Right. LinkedIn as a primary platform. Is there any context or reasons why you're putting that at the top of the platforms?
- [05:08]
B
Well, you know, it's, it's, it's the top for a couple of reasons. First off, it's the top for me in particular, because that's the platform that I went all in on and have experienced it for myself. So I took, you know, two and a half years or so of just trial and error and trying to figure out how the thing works. And then just like, pretty quickly Seeing like doors that I didn't even know existed start opening and just some really big opportunities. And so I became a fan and really just pushing the platform early on just because I had so much positivity from it on the other end though. So that's like a personal. This is the experience that I have. This is not theory, but practice, all of those things. What I have seen from just like the overall landscape of social media is that LinkedIn is in this prime position to be able to help whoever it is build a brand and to get eyeballs on their content. And it's positioned that way because the other platforms are very crowded. So if you think about Instagram and Facebook, those platforms are much older and have been around for a while now. There's a lot of creators creating content and so it's harder to get the right eyes that you are wanting. Well, you don't have that on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is sort of open. There's less than 1% of the people who are on LinkedIn who have an account that are actually creating content. And so if you're looking at the opportunity just from a pure number standpoint, you get a lot more bang for your buck on LinkedIn than you do on any of the other platforms.
- [07:04]
A
Okay, what would you say or how would you respond to those listening? Or maybe the existing belief around reaching consumers, consumer direct, if you will, to use that lovely term in air quotes, you know, because that's, I think been the card played for a long time, is like, you know, the reachability to the mass population of consumers. Let's just take that. We'll take referral partners in a minute. But how would you address that?
- [07:38]
B
Yeah, I mean, like, you know, is, is LinkedIn more suited for B2B? Yes, it is, but it is gaining a lot of traction for the consumer as well. And the platform is growing in popularity. One thing that I always tell people is like the people that you are trying to, trying to reach the consumer, they all have jobs, most of them anyways. And they like you want, very likely have the ones you want at least. And so they're there. I mean, they are there. And as the platform continues to grow in popularity and users, they're just going to be there more and more, more and more. So they're 100% there. Most of the time people argue that they're not are people who are not on LinkedIn and not experiencing it for themselves. It's just either a thought that they've heard or they're using, you know, data from A long time ago, like when there used to be very few. But it is growing and growing and growing and a lot more attention has been on on this platform. And so they are absolutely 100% there.
- [08:49]
A
All right, what would you say is different in terms of rules of engagement, right. On LinkedIn as compared to the other big two? Let's just take Facebook and Instagram. I'm going to set YouTube in its own category and TikTok talk and it's different categories. Well, but what would be the differences for somebody to be aware of?
- [09:07]
B
Okay, so this is the cool part. The main difference is that you have platform like Facebook. It's very much sort of a hodgepodge. Didn't think I was going to use that word, but just, just mixture of, of people and goals and what they are using the platform for.
- [09:30]
A
Right.
- [09:30]
B
Like you think of it, if you get on your own personal Facebook, Facebook feed, it's going to look a lot different than somebody else's. Right. You're going to have like, you know, political speaking of today, right? Political conversations like slash arguments and people hating each other. And, and then maybe you get the neighborhood lady who's like, if another dog craps in my yard, you know, you're going to have all these like just random different conversations going on. And then you get onto Instagram, Instagram, you're going to like have a lot of reels and you're going to have, you know, funny stuff. It's going to be curated towards your likes and not your dislikes. And so I would say those two platforms are very much like sort of a catch all. If you like business, if you like being sold to, then there might be some things on there like that LinkedIn is the only platform that people are ready to do business and to talk about business. So I mean, you've already, you've already moved forward a notch in the, you know, in the funnel ultimately because everyone's primed and ready to have those conversations. Even if we think DMS that we get from all these bots and whatnot are annoying. They absolutely are. But real conversations on these things, people are ready to have them.
- [10:39]
A
I think also too when it comes to reaching people, right. That are ready to, quote, unquote, do business, professionals, people who are probably gainfully employed, you could argue that the professionalism is maybe ratcheted up a notch on LinkedIn in terms of type of user interaction, perhaps. But I like to talk to this to the degree you want to. There are other ways to. There's other features in LinkedIn for instance, if you have the LinkedIn Navigator kind of premium upgrade that turns on a bunch of different things from a search capability, from a targeting capability, do you want to perhaps highlight any of those that you might think are relevant?
- [11:23]
B
Yeah, I mean, it gets pretty in depth on that stuff, so you can take it as far as you want kind of on these different tools that it has. With a Sales Navigator, it comes with a little bit of a price tag, so you have to really have like a goal, you know, with that. But some of the cool features that you do get kind of goes back to your other question and this could actually be both a, you know, a B2C and a B2B question. It's like, is the audience that I'm looking for and searching for, which we'll call the ideal customer of whoever it is, are they on LinkedIn? And that's just question one of two. The second one is, are they active and engaged in LinkedIn? And so there's very, there's, there's a number of ways you can kind of, you know, figure out if that's the case or not the case. One of the cool features though, with Sales Navigator is that on the search filters, you have a lot more filters to add to try to narrow down who it is you're reaching and get that ideal customer. One of the cool features that it has, it's more recent than it has been. It's one of the newer features is that you can actually put has, you know, recently active on LinkedIn and they keep changing the number, but I think the latest number is like, have they posted within the last 90 days. And so you can get a curated list of people who are actually utilizing LinkedIn engaging. And so that you know that if this person, if this decision maker, if this referral partner is somebody that you can actually utilize this platform for to actually reach out and go to. So there's a number of things like that. That's a big one.
- [13:03]
A
Yeah, that's a big one. As well as geo targeting. Right. You can target by. I forget how granular it gets. I think it was Counties. Counties actually is for free, if I recall, and you can even do zip codes, I believe, with the paid version. So why, why I wanted to highlight this is because I'm. My assumption is, and I'm only basing this because I have interactions with people. So my assumption is that, or my feedback is that there's a lot of people that are unaware of the additional functionality on LinkedIn that's available to some degree on A free account. And then if you want the navigator version, which I think is like 100 bucks a month to open up the whole world of possibilities for targeting.
- [13:44]
B
For sure, for sure. And you got to think these are also this, when we say targeting on these things, they have paid ads on LinkedIn. But like what I preach and what I talk about is really the organic stuff, the non paid stuff. And so you're able to filter these things to people that you can actually use your own, like, you know, mouse and click and go to their profile and actually reach out to the real person, person to person. So it's huge. It's huge.
- [14:11]
A
Well, let's think about this now. Let's. Okay, so we mentioned Consumer Direct and right. People have jobs, people that you can kind of identify by job title and different things like that, you know, So I think about this like if I'm specializing in doctor loans or if I'm specializing in first responders, right. Then I want to be able to, I find where those people are. And so LinkedIn gives you some of the additional functionality. So this is now a dotted line over to the referral partner side of things. What would you want to say around. If I'm hunting referral partners, this could be Realtors, it could be financial advisors. Any pointers around that?
- [14:43]
B
Yeah, yeah. So they're all there to varying degrees. Right. I'm not going to pretend like LinkedIn has 100% of your realtor partners that are actively engaged and consuming it all the time. But what I will say just from my experience in working with a number of mortgage companies and loan officers, is that there are depending on your area, there are real estate agents that are active and available on the LinkedIn platform. But there are a number of other really good opportunities for finding financial planners and accountants and divorce attorneys. And so what I typically tell loan officers is like your area, your local, like regional kind of like strategy. It might look different and probably will look different than the person in another area. Right. You might have a whole bunch of Realtors that are active and engaging on LinkedIn here and maybe not over there. And so it's really just like trying to identify who that that target audience who would be most beneficial to your business and then utilizing the search features within LinkedIn and or sales Navigator to really target and hone in on who they are. But 100% they are on there and there's a lot of ways to get them on board.
- [16:15]
A
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- [17:51]
B
Yeah, it's a little bit of a, at the moment it's kind of hit or miss on the video. Like video has just been a very recent push. If You've been on LinkedIn for very long, you'll notice that video is kind of coming in and integrating into your feed more. And now when you click on a picture you'll see like a notification that says swipe up for video. Those are things that are very, very new. Um, and, and so there, there's a concerted effort on LinkedIn's part to start prioritizing videos to the point that it, that it actually over like takes over the traditional like text based post. I don't know that we're, we're not there yet for the most part. A lot of times I'll see video content not perform as well as written content with like an image. Sometimes carousel posts do really well what I have found and it changes, it always changes. The algorithm's always being worked on and updated. But right now what I have seen is just your caption matters. So what you write, it needs to be informative. It needs to be more of a story instead of you kind of preaching a message. You need to show what has worked for you and then always like suggest a picture, a selfie picture, something that puts your face in the picture, something that kind of breaks up and is a little different than what you would normally see. So that makes people like stop the scroll for a second and really check out what's going on. But video is becoming more and more and more popular, so don't think that it's not a priority right now. It's just kind of in this, in between stage of really taking off on LinkedIn.
- [19:49]
A
Yeah, that's a good summary. I as well see the same thing. It's a combination which is actually probably for some refreshing in that you can actually post written content that gets engagement where everything doesn't have to be on video. It's kind of like you have a newsletter, right? Is it WIN Weekly? Is that the newsletter? Yeah. So that's your newsletter, which by the way, we're going to link up your profile in the show notes. Everybody should be subscribing to your newsletter, right?
- [20:19]
B
Everybody? Yep.
- [20:21]
A
Okay, you have a. This is why I want people to subscribe to the newsletter because these are all new skills we're all trying to learn. We need to get educated. Myself as well, this is how I learn. I talk to cool people like you who are doing stuff, who are 10% in front of me. And I just draft you, right? And I just figure out, oh, here's what Dan's doing and I can apply what he's learning. So WinWeekly is one of those newsletters that I definitely learned from. Would you mind? There's a story you have in here from a few weeks ago about the. Your weekly win three realtor meetings booked last week from LinkedIn and these came out of some lo's you're coaching and there was like a five day content mix. Do you know what I'm referring to there?
- [20:59]
B
Yeah, yeah. So. So we're doing. I want to say that that was the cohort related.
- [21:05]
A
Okay, it may have been.
- [21:06]
B
And I don't want to put you.
- [21:07]
A
On the spot, but. And I'm happy to bring it up and share it or reference it if you need some because this was back in the end of October, but it looks like you had a five day content mix that was like, if you don't mind, I'll walk you through it and then you can, you can put the cap on this.
- [21:19]
B
Let's roll.
- [21:20]
A
Let's roll.
- [21:20]
B
Absolutely.
- [21:20]
A
But what you. I mean all it says here is like one lo booked three meetings in a week. Another had two realtors reach out for coffee. Another landed 1.2 million dollar deal in the DMs. So what did we do differently? Here's the breakdown. Five day content mix. Monday market update. But not just rates. Tuesday, client success. Wednesday educational post. Thursday behind the scenes. Friday, personal story or industry hot take. What's happening there, man? What are you doing?
- [21:46]
B
So this post is all about like how can you put a framework in place to where you're consistently delivering content to your audience and where it's not the same content all of the time. Right. And so it's like figure out what the days of the week can look like so that you're not just coming in blindly trying to figure out what to post the day of. It's really, really difficult to do that.
- [22:10]
A
Nobody does that.
- [22:11]
B
Really?
- [22:12]
A
Come on.
- [22:13]
B
I don't either. Right. And so when you have these kind of frameworks in place, you can absolutely like pivot from them. But if you know that, hey, like I'm going to add some personal stories in here as well. I'm not always going to talk about products. In fact, I am of the belief that you should rarely talk about products. You know, all of the things that compliance gets onto you for. I don't even think we should be posting about them. So I have kind of this like funny view of compliance that I actually think they're trying to help you from terrible content. And so if, when you show stories of who you are, your personality, if you have a family, you know, things you do with your family, hobbies that you're in, that makes you immediately more human and it makes you immediately more to a certain audience, relatable. And so that's really what the framework is set up as. It's a setup to just give you some kind of plan to be able to take and to be consistent because the consistency that gets the results. It's not one post. One post never gets you a result. If it's by itself, great, you might get a couple likes, but it's the posting every day, posting every week, whatever that looks like. It's the over time, that action compounding into being a known trusted face within your small corner of either your community or the Internet. Right. And that's what works.
- [23:44]
A
Yeah. Well that goes back to what we, we've heard that example of how many touch points does it take for somebody to agree to a meeting or connect or whatever. And it's, I mean, earlier today I heard it was 16. One could argue it's higher today. But let me, let me go back to this thread of this. I think this is very instructive of. If you're listening right now, this is actually a good case study and why you should subscribe to Dan's newsletter, Win Weekly. So we unpack the 5 day content, mix the strategy, and then what I love here is profile views. So when somebody checks out your profile, you can receive notifications that somebody checked out your profile view. Now the question is, what do you do with that? You, you, you make a comment in this newsletter, it says, they're basically raising their hand saying, I'm interested. If they go look at your profile, they're curious, hey, who's this guy Dan? He posted something cool. I want to check it out. That's like looking in the window, right? Here's. I love this takeaway, this lesson, the example of the loan officer message. So let's just say Dan's the realtor. Dan came and looked at my profile on LinkedIn. I got a notification of like, here's my history of profile views in the last week or whatever. Well, I can dm, I can send a message to those people. And in this case here, this example is, hey, Dan, thanks for stopping by my profile. Saw that you're a realtor in Dallas. If you ever need a second opinion on a tough loan scenario, I'm your guy. Have an awesome Tuesday. Like, that's just it.
- [25:08]
B
Boom.
- [25:09]
A
Planting seeds.
- [25:09]
B
Boom. Yep, planting seeds. That's what it's really, that's what it's all about. Just plant those seeds. And I think so many times we're trying to get the quick, you know, deal or the quick referral partner. But like, guys rush to the date. Yeah. And it's just like you, you nobody, nobody works that way in real life. Right. Relations drive business.
- [25:34]
A
That's the classic. That's why I said the window shopping thing. It's just like, you know, when the, when the, a retail salesperson says, right, hey, can I help you? What do you say? I'm just looking.
- [25:44]
B
Just looking.
- [25:45]
A
That's all they did by looking at your profile is say, I'm just looking. You're just saying, hey, if I can ever be of assistance, I'm here. You're not saying, hey, we got a special today, right? 20% like, man, just chill, you know?
- [25:58]
B
Yeah, just, just, just calm down. And here's what's weird. And maybe it's not weird. Maybe it's just like weird after you've kind of experienced it social media a little bit more. But I think a lot of times the view for people and you see this a lot in the people who go in and just leave really hateful comments and stuff. There's this thing about social media that because it's online, because you can't see the face of the person and you're not in front of them physically in front of them, that somehow they're not like a real person. And we do this in a positive and a negative way. Right. We're like, well, we'll, we'll get out there. We'll say mean things or, or even like, we just like go do conversations like in sales that we would never do in person. And so what I try to help people, like realize is that like, this should be treated like a real networking event. Like if you're trying to get. If this is like a referral partner kind of play or like if you're an executive at a company mortgage company that's trying to bring on new loan officers, you know, this is, this is your networking floor and you're going into the event. The cool thing about this event is it's 24 7, there's no end to it. It's free to get into. And, and it's. You get infinitely more people that you can connect with. And so it's the best networking event in the world. Um, and you just have to come knowing that the same rules that apply in person apply on here. And so if you are going to build a relationship, which is fundamental to what it is to do business with a person who somebody's going to entrust, let's say a real estate agent, their buyers to you to be the lender where their name is now on the line, that is going to take a little bit of time to get to that point. And so be yourself, stop pushing products and rates. People want to work with people, not companies. And you know, honestly, we talk about window shopping. People maybe sometimes are there because there's a big sale, but when they get in there and they start looking, they fall in love with, you know, something that fits them well and looks good on them. And.
- [28:19]
A
Yeah, but what brings them into the quote store? Right. So it's going to be. This is what you're talking about. It's a combination of your content into your point you just made, which is get out of the mortgage bubble. Yeah. And this is, I think, an important thing to highlight because I think there has been a perception for some time that LinkedIn is, quote, all business and wasn't the place to be personal. That like I've seen in the past, over the years, you may have seen this too, where somebody comments of like, hey, that's not for this platform, that's for Facebook. Right? You ever see that?
- [28:48]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 100%.
- [28:50]
A
But it's changing, right? Because like you said, people crave human connection.
- [28:55]
B
Yes, yes. In fact, if you. The LinkedIn, as far as the company is concerned, is very much pushing the real, authentic person, not the fake, buttoned up, never has anything going on in their personal life kind of person. So you can see that spilling over into video content. The ones that typically perform better are the ones that are not like a movie that's been professionally edited and created. It's the raw, real videos. Same with content. The content that shares a story and maybe even shows that you have a family. And you're not even talking about business this time. You're just talking about how you try to unwind in a certain way. Those are the posts that do really, really well. Those are the posts that LinkedIn really is pushing.
- [29:48]
A
Well, to put a cap on this, to finish out this thread, talking about sharing more of the personal side of things is you had an LO post about coaching his kids soccer team. 42 Comments, 3 realtor coffee meetings booked from a soccer post.
- [30:04]
B
Soccer post.
- [30:04]
A
Man.
- [30:05]
B
Now, just, just to, just to put some clarity there, right, if he were to do the soccer post, just one day, decides to do it, probably doesn't get those results, but you know, being consistent over time and then dropping in some of those things over time, that post is what really, really sparked those conversations and got some real stuff in the door. And it's just awesome to see that.
- [30:32]
A
Well, I mean, it's networking at scale. It's relationships and connection. And this is the way we do it outside of being face to face in person today. And kind of to our point earlier about how many quote touches, how many engagements, how many, you know, 6 second, 30 second views does it take to build that emotional bank account connection so that at some point, right, that ask or the reciprocation is going to happen because you've made those investments in those, those connection points, those human touch points, as well as the educational side, right. The content side, which is, oh, this person's a professional, they're knowledgeable. It's, it's a combination of both, right. People like to do business with people they like.
- [31:15]
B
They do very, very, very much so. And just Gotta do it. Just gotta get out there and put in the work. And, and it's, it's really, listen, it's not just about content. It's about engaging with other people. It's about DMing them and just like supporting them and supporting their content. There's a lot of reciprocal reciprocity going on on LinkedIn and so just get out there and try it. Don't be afraid to get out there and try it because I promise you, the rewards are significantly greater than any of the bad things that could happen. People don't care as much as we think they do about how we write our content. From a, like, I can't believe he wrote this standpoint. They care a lot more about you putting yourself out there and being relatable.
- [31:58]
A
Very good. Very good stuff. So if you're listening, what do you do from here? Well, if you've been ignoring LinkedIn, come back, check it out, join the conversation, start to engage, start to be intentional. And we're not saying abandon the other social platforms, but maybe as difficult as it is, I know, start to carve out whatever that, you know, frequency is per week, start. I mean, what would you say? How, what advice would you give to people who are kind of coming back to, or maybe trying LinkedIn for the first time? Let's give them the quick 60 second. Here's what you should. How to get started.
- [32:34]
B
Yeah, what I would do is I would, I would. This is going to sound funny, but I would, I would go find myself, I would connect with me, I would DM me. Hey, Dan, saw you on the podcast. I would love to get started with LinkedIn. Can you give me the list of the top people in the mortgage industry to follow and engage with? And I will send you over a list of those top people and then you can start engaging with these people, connecting with them, seeing how they do it. Because really what it is, is you want to talk, you want to follow some of these people who are a little ahead from where you are so that you can learn how they are doing things, how they write content, how they engage with others. For me, I post tips and strategies all the time on it. And there's other people out there that do the same thing. And so really trying to figure out who those are is a great first step. And then if we're, if we're connected on LinkedIn, you can DM me anytime. I answer every DM and I'll make sure to take good care of you.
- [33:38]
A
That's awesome, man. So Once again, Dan's LinkedIn profile as well as others will be in the show notes where you can go follow him, let him know DM him that you heard him here on the podcast and take it away from there. I guarantee you you're going to be pleased with your engagement with Dan. I mean, you and I have only been connected for a certain period of time and you're already on the short list as well for me learning from so thanks for leading from the front man.
- [34:04]
B
Appreciate it.
- [34:04]
A
Yeah, absolutely. All right.
- [34:06]
B
Absolutely.
- [34:06]
A
So listeners, I hope you like this episode. If you do follow Dan, leave us a review. If you got a moment, just go on your mobile phone right now, find the little link where it says hey, like this podcast, leave us a review that helps us reach more people. Dan, thanks for your time man.
- [34:20]
B
Thank you.
- [34:21]
A
Okay, that's it for today's episode. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to remind you about my agent classes. Your proven system to double your agent referrals in just 90 days. Imagine never having to cold call again. Instead building real lasting relationships with top producing agents who want to send you business with done for you presentations, marketing automation, weekly coaching. It's all designed to make growing your business easier and fun. So if you're ready to take control of your agent referrals and grow your income, visit MortgageMarketing Pro or check the link in the show notes. And while you're there, don't forget to check out the success stories from other mortgage pros who've already seen incredible results. Thanks for listening and I'll see you on the next episode.