The #1 Sales Mistake You're Making (And How to Fix It)

Summary

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Mortgage Marketing Radio

Episode Summary: The #1 Sales Mistake You're Making (And How to Fix It)

Host: Geoff Zimpfer
Guest: Sharon (last name not listed)
Date: March 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the top sales mistake mortgage loan originators and real estate agents make—and how to fix it. The core message: Today’s industry isn’t about brute-force branding or outdated “numbers games,” but about developing sharp, modern sales skills, mastering conversations, and using direct-response strategies. Sharon, a top industry leader, shares tactical advice and real-world scripts, explains why most “sales wisdom” is outdated, unpacks the importance of creating authentic dialogue, and gives actionable strategies to partner effectively with lenders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Shift from a “Numbers Game” to a “Skills Game”

• Old thinking: Sales as a “numbers game” – the more calls/leads, the better.
• New reality: The “momentum market” of the pandemic is over, and a true “skills market” has arrived.
  • “The everyday agent is unwilling to accept that their skills made them better... It’s not a numbers game, it’s a skills game.” (06:25, Sharon)
• Agents who thrive now are those with sharpened, relevant skills—especially conversational skills and empathy.

Notable Analogy (04:44–06:13)

• Bad scripts (like “Have you ever had any thoughts of selling?”) are compared to a life insurance door-knocker asking, “Have you ever had any thoughts of dying?” – highlighting how tone-deaf and ineffective old scripts can be.

2. Language Mastery: The True Sales Skill

• Language and curiosity are key differentiators for agents now.
• Generic scripts: Most are awkward and outdated; check the source and ensure it feels natural.
  • “If the script feels awkward, it is. That’s it.” (14:18, Sharon)
• Focus on manufacturing safety and empathy in your tone.
  • “It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it... I’m manufacturing safety.” (11:44, Sharon)

Sharon’s Script Upgrade Example (04:52)

• Instead of, “Have you ever had any thoughts of selling?”
• Use: “Has anyone taken the time to sit down and walk you through what it takes to sell a home in today’s market?”
  • This demonstrates expertise, empathy, and initiates meaningful conversation.

3. Direct Response vs. Branding

• Branding (bus bench ads, “just listed” postcards) creates awareness, but rarely drives conversations.

• Direct response marketing actually generates leads by demanding a reply.

• Example: Texting old open house leads with, “Are you still interested in buying a home in Orange County?” (19:35)

• Segmented responses for “Who is this?”, positive replies, or no reply—with tactical follow-up.

  • “All conversion happens in conversation... There are two types of marketing. If we’re using brand-based marketing, get word out; for response, use direct-response marketing.” (18:56, Sharon)

4. Modern Selling: Natively Use Modern Communication Tools

• Emails should look like real emails (not flowery newsletters).
• Texts should be plain, direct, and native to the platform.
  • “I want the email to look like email, read like email... If you’re doing a video, it needs to look like an Instagram video.” (25:35, Sharon)
• Don’t overvalue elegant or “ugly” design; value what sparks a reply.

5. Process Over Personality

• Consumers aren’t hiring an agent—they’re hiring a process.
• Most homebuyers start their search online and look to agents for process guidance.
  • “You’re not hiring us, you’re hiring our process... a process that has actually delivered, you know, 212 homes.” (28:18, Sharon)
• Pre-listing strategy: Deliver a manila envelope with a “Don’t open till our meeting” note for social accountability and appointment confirmation. (30:34)

6. Integrating Mortgage Loan Officers as Strategic Partners

• Stop regarding loan officers as “vendors”—make them true partners.
• Tactical tip: Before a listing appointment, get your loan officer to leave a voicemail about ready, qualified buyers. Play it Kardashian-style during the appointment to wow sellers with real proof.
  • Example script at (35:17–38:00).
• Lenders should call open house lists on agents’ behalf, further integrating the partnership.

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Key Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On skills replacing “numbers game”:

  • “The fact that we have been taught that sales is a numbers game is a lie. Because what it says is, hey, you just put in more effort without any skill, and eventually even a blind squirrel finds an acorn, right? That’s not the answer.” (06:25, Sharon)

• On modern skills:

  • “If agents can switch their mindset...I could door knock four doors and get 12 deals, not four. That is the skill.” (07:13, Sharon)

• On outdated scripts:

  • “Most of our script books today...were written by somebody 49 years ago who’s crusty old right now who’s never talked to a client in their lives.” (09:54, Sharon)
  • “You will tell your grandma that. That’s the test... If you would tell your grandma that, then it’s okay.” (14:18, Sharon)

• On pre-listing process:

  • “When you get to the appointment...you want mechanical rapport, not emotional rapport...Then when you sit down, here’s what I ask. I’m like, hey, do you have the envelope...Did you open it?” (33:10, Sharon)

• On integrating loan officers:

  • “The number one most underutilized unfair advantage for real estate agents is not working in tandem with their loan officer...Stop calling them a vendor. They are not your vendor. They are a partner.” (35:17, Sharon)

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Notable Timestamps

• 01:30–04:44: Market shift from “momentum” to “skills” market; why “back to basics” is terrible advice.
• 04:44–06:25: Why bad scripts fail; agents have lost their skills.
• 06:25–09:34: Numbers game vs. skills game; why modern sales is about efficiency and language mastery.
• 09:34–15:20: How to get better with language, authentic curiosity, and objection handling.
• 18:56–20:43: Difference between branding and direct response marketing.
• 24:44–26:47: Modern “native” communication, authentic emails and texts.
• 27:28–30:31: Understanding what consumers really want from agents—not home discovery, but process guidance.
• 30:34–34:51: Effective pre-listing package strategy for appointment confirmation and framing.
• 35:17–38:51: Two killer strategies for agent-lender partnership: listing voicemails and open house follow-up.
• 39:39–42:10: AI’s impact on the industry: removing busywork lets agents focus on skill and creativity.

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Closing: Key Takeaways

• Sales success today hinges on skill—especially authentic conversation—not volume of brute-force outreach.
• Scripts must be modern, empathetic, and delivered with genuine curiosity and safety.
• Focus on direct response marketing to spark immediate, meaningful conversations.
• Integrate loan officers as true partners in your process—don’t treat them as vendors.
• AI and automation will free agents and loan officers from busywork, leaving more time to build creativity and skill—the human superpowers in the sales process.

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Further Resources

• Sharon’s links: Instagram and YouTube (see episode show notes)
• For agents: Reframe loan officers as partners, not vendors, and implement real conversational, direct response strategies now.

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Transcript

[A]

All conversion happens in conversation. I'm a full believer that sales 101. However, here's the fundamental thing that is broken in our industry, which is people think branding drives conversations. People think me saying hey, Jeff and Sharon are number one that drives conversations. It doesn't. So they say the just listed postcard, for example, like just list is good. However, you've taken a what you've done for 100 days and you've combined that into two words, just sold. And so it doesn't show proof on what you did.

[B]

Sharon, welcome to the show.

[A]

Jeff, thank you so much for having me. I just want to say this before we get started is that a lot of people don't realize how, how much effort this takes to get the guests on, to think about a show, to research them and then package and deliver both in conversation and post production to get it to folks so that they can consume like a good 30 minutes worth of like package knowledge that they can use for their, their lives and their careers. So kudos to you man for taking the effort to put all this together. I know a lot of people appreciate.

[B]

It and so do I appreciate that very, very much. It's a labor of love is what it is. Started eight years ago, over 350 episodes now. So I must be enjoying it at some level. Okay, so let's just jump right into it. Here we are. It's basically it's February 3, 2025. You know, I've been using this term transaction recession. You obviously are very up close and personal with the general vibe from real estate agents and mortgage as well. How would you ascertain? Let's just take that term transaction recession. How would you respond to that? What would be your take of the current state of the housing or real estate market?

[A]

Yeah, so I think whenever you analyze anything today, you want to give it some context. Otherwise you don't really know what to compare it to. Right. And so if we what we know what happened recently and that would be kind of like during the pandemic time frame was we were in a momentum based market, the consumer was moving faster than the agent was. And so we, the agent was reacting and responding to whatever was happening to the momentum that the consumer was generating. May have been a chance to move away, may have been a chance to work remotely, may have been a chance because they got some liquidity in their house or low rates or whatever. It created this momentum based market. When that momentum based market changed, the agents didn't know what to do per se. And so it created quickly turn to a skills based market. And a lot of people are unwilling to accept that a skills based market exists because the average everyday agent assumes that they have the skills to run a transaction. But the problem with having the skills to running a transaction is you have to be in constant practice of having the skills to run a transaction. And when you're in a momentum based market, the skills of running the transaction dramatically reduces. You're just reacting to whatever the consumer is asking. The market's moving fast. You have like seven day closes. Everything is accelerated. And I think what happened in the like the two years of the pandemic is an agent, agents, the everyday agents forgot to be everyday agents. That's what happened. And then when the slowdown in number of transactions hit, which is what you're calling a transaction recession in a lot of ways, you know, we have today we have roughly 1.5-ish million agents in the United States called the licenses. We have less than that in active inventory. So you have less than the number of active homes for sale that the number of agents have. And what does that mean? That means that, oh yeah, we see agents saying oh, 70% of agents didn't do a deal in the last 12 months. Now that is not a surprise. Like it's interesting that agents think that that's a surprise, but that is not a surprise. What is important here is the other 35% that actually did the deals, what made them better. And the everyday agent is unwilling to accept that their skills made them better. And when I say skills, and here's what I mean is the ability to talk to a client is the ability to actually have a conversation to get them from a maybe to a yes. Is the ability to solve a transaction creat is the ability to actually work with a lender partner and not look at them like a vendor. Small things like that are big deals here. And I think our everyday agents have lost their skills. So if we can just go, and here's the word that I hate, Jeff, like the whole back to basics. If anybody says back to basics, you just want to punch them because. No, I'm dead serious. Because back to basics means going back 30 years and doing what they did then. That is terrible because 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, four years ago is not what we have today. Right. The back to basics conversation is said by coaches and consultants who have never talked to a client in their lives. That is what back to basics is. It is a smart thing for them to say to make agents feel better. About themselves, make loan officers be better about themselves. Back to basics is terrible. What we want is sharper skills. In today's environment, the average consumer knows more than the average agent. How do we have a better skill? And I'll give you an example, right? Because your audience likes this. The number one thing that agents will do is we'll say they borrowed the skill from rum random script book from some random coach that says, oh, Jeff, have you ever had any thoughts of selling? Like, there cannot be a dumber thing to ask anybody. And the reason is this, right? I'll tell you, my next door neighbor is a life insurance agent, right? And he said to me, he's like, hey, Sharon, I had a bunch of agents come by and knock on our door and they asked me a question. I said, what? They? They said, well, they said, hey, knock knock. Have you ever had any thoughts of selling? And I said, well, what's wrong with that? You know what he said? He goes, well, that's the dumbest question ever. I said, why? He goes, well, that would be like me, Sharon, walking up to your door and say, knock, knock. Have you ever had any thoughts of dying? Right, right. And the reason is nobody says, have you ever had any thoughts of selling? Because some coach who's never actually talked to a client in their lives actually told a person, oh, I'm going to ask this. Nobody wants to be asked the question, have you ever had any thoughts of selling? Because it's two things. One, it's sleazy, and two, it's leading the witness. Instead, what do you ask? That's what I mean by having bad skills. Instead, you ask this. You say, I call this the game plan frame. And you say, hey, Jeff, has anyone taken the time to sit down and walk you through what it takes to sell a home in today's market? Now that is skill, right? So I'm asking, has anyone taken the time to sit down and walk you through what it takes to sell a home in today's market? Now if you said, oh, yeah, my cousin is an agent right here in orange county, and he laid out a great plan for me. And now that makes sense. That's cool. So now I know that I have no shot at this business at all. But instead, if I say, have you ever had any thoughts of selling? That's dumb. So while somebody thinks that that is skill, it's not. And that's what's the difference between the 35% of the agents that are winning and the 70% of the agents that don't have A deal right now.

[B]

Wow, that's awesome. There's a lot in there. Do you think, though, that technique of the door knocking and using that phrase is trying to play the numbers game of just catching the right person at the right time?

[A]

Well, think about this for a second, right? When, when we are in JV sports, numbers, numbers make sense. You're like, hey, I tell my son, hey, hey, dude, you're playing hockey. Take as many shots on goal as you want and one of them will go in. That's JV law of large numbers. If he plays in the NHL and he has 200 shots on goal and he makes one goal, he's going to get kicked off the team. So, again, like, I actually think brokers, owners, managers, coaches and consultants are the entire reason why agents, like everyday agents, don't get support. And it is my fault. It is my fault. I am taking responsibility for this. And the reason is this, right? The fact that we think. The fact that we have been taught that sales is a numbers game is a lie. Because what it says is, hey, you just put in more effort without any skill, and eventually even a blind squirrel finds an acorn, right? Like, that's not the answer, right? The answer is, imagine this. Why do you like Steph Curry? Because his efficacy, his efficiency ratio is so much higher for every 10 shots he takes, he makes nine. That's why. So we don't. People don't realize this. As the world gets smaller and as more information, as the consumers have more information, you're going to get less at bats. When you get less at bats, you're going to start to pay higher cost per lead. A higher cost for leads means more cost for conversations, means you have to talk to more people. So if your skill is not good enough, you're guessing going to say, well, I talk to everybody. And Facebook leads suck. Well, that's not it. You just don't have good skill. So I'm a big proponent of not saying, oh, you know, it's a numbers. It's not a numbers game, it's a skills game. Right? If you and I went into the marketplace, I could door knock four doors and get 12 deals. I say it again, I could donut four doors and get 12 deals, not four. Right? That is the skill. And so if agents can switch their mindset and say, wait a minute, how can I turn one opportunity to. How can I turn the game plan from. So I'll give you a really great example. So a lot of people will say, I taught this game plan from yesterday to A bunch of agents. I said, hey, has anyone taken the time to sit down and walk you through what it takes to buy a home in today's market? Right? And then they'll say, well, not really. Now, most agents don't have the skill on what to do next.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. So now what? You've asked a nice soft question. What is the next question? The next question is called the when then frame. Or like, you say this, hey, hey, Jeff, why don't we. Right? It's called why don't we sew that. Hey, why don't we get together for a cup of coffee? Right? And before your coffee gets cold, I will walk you through the seven or eight things that actually are important in buying a home in today's market. Now what have I done? Why don't we get together instantly? You're like, man, I don't want to get together with you. It's going to take two hours, blah, blah, no, before your coffee gets cold. That means in less than seven minutes. I'm going to walk you through that. Now, what does it do? It dramatically takes away all objections, right? Small little things on skill changes the ability for you to get more appointments. So if I get to an open house and 20 people came into my open house and I'm able to sell set 20 out of 20 appointments versus the everyday agent, that's like, I need more open houses. I need more open houses. Like, yeah, dude, you got 12 open houses. And you said one appointment, like, you suck. Right? But no one taught you the skill because he just told you that you need more at bats and more effort. And it's a numbers game. And so you con yourself into believing that your lack of skill and the market's changing is what's not getting your results. But you never want to focus on 1, 2, 3 things of skill that can get you better results.

[B]

What I heard a lot of in there, in terms of, like, there are different skills, and the one you're kind of hitting on right now is language, right? The ability to use language in an effective way. How do you recommend? Because it's funny, I would agree with you there that a lot of people are not skilled with language. But any recommendations for agents to get better at that?

[A]

Yeah, totally. Right. So here's the interesting thing. I actually think scripts are good, but you have to check the source of who wrote them, right? So most of our script books today that exist in our marketplace, most of them, especially the popular ones, Jeff, or Were written by somebody 49 years ago who's crusty old right now who's never talked to a client in their lives. Right? Like. No, no, it's the truth though, right?

[B]

That's what I know. That's why I'm laughing, because I'm getting a visual in my mind of some.

[A]

Of these people and I don't. I actually think they mean well. I think they have really good intentions. But I was in an eleven and a half million dollar listing appointment yesterday with one of our agents, right. I'm handling the objections day to day. I'm not saying I'm amazing, but I'm just saying I had to learn very quickly because otherwise my agents, I have 25,000 agents. My agents lose trust in me and as the ability for me not to have the modeling skill to help them. Right? So here's how you get better on the, on the skill. Number one is want to check the source of where you're getting this information from. If that person has not talked to a client in their lives, then I would, I would be a little weary of getting. I woke up in the morning and I wrote a skill on an expired. Like that's, like, that's dumb. Like, you shouldn't do that. Right. The second thing is a lot of people don't realize this, but if, if they, if you're an everyday agent listening to the show, you, you should go back and listen to my scripting. When I started scripting, I changed my tonality, right? So it's not what you say, it's how you say it. So I could say, hey, hey, hey, Jeff. Has anyone taken the time to actually walk it through? No. Right. I have to. It's, it's an empathetic tone. Hey, Jeff. I don't, I don't stutter, by the way. Has anyone taken the time to sit down and walk you through what it truly takes to buy a home in today's market? What am I doing? I'm manufacturing safety, right? Tonality is super.

[B]

You're performing a little bit, actually.

[A]

Of course, Right. And so the second, the second thing is to kind of think about tonality. Like, if I'm saying something, it is not what I say. Like, it's not what I say. I have to figure out what is the core emotion that I have to deliver in this, right? So I'm delivering empathy and safety. Hey, has anyone taken the time to actually do this for you? And then I'll say, hey, would that help you? Would you possibly be interested in like walking through what the plan may look like so that it could help your family?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so. So, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I want to jump in here for a second because I'm curious. That's actually the word I was going to use. What I'm hearing in your tone is curiosity.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I'm wondering. This gets maybe a little deep psychologically here, but the degree to which the agents who succeed with dialogue, of actually having some natural curiosity and empathy versus, oh, I've got to use a script that makes it sound like I'm curious. You know what I mean? Like, the best people, the best communicators are ones who are just coming at it right from the heart and being naturally curious. Would you agree 100%.

[A]

And here's the interesting part, Jeff. You even did it right then. You said, would you agree? Right. You had the curiosity on whether I agreed or not. Right. But the crazy part here is as soon as somebody hears what may be written as a potential objection, they instantly go to an objection handler instead. So I'll give you an example. Yesterday, the client said to us in the appointment, $11.5 million. He said to us. He goes, so, Sharon, I heard that, you know, we don't have to pay commissions anymore. So I could instantly go to a commission handling objection in my head. But instead, what did I do? I said, how do you mean? That's it, right?

[B]

How do you have no idea how he heard or what he heard?

[A]

No, no. So now he has to validate to me what he heard so that I can have enough information to actually solve the objection. Most people take the objection and they're like, hey, I need to solve the objection. Because this is an objection handler. They let them give you all the information so that you know what objection to solve. Most agents will approach things to solve objections without knowing what objection they're trying to solve. Most of the time, it's not even an objection. It's just an unanswered question. And so, number one, figure out the source of who wrote the script. Number two, figure out what emotion needs to be delivered around that. And number three, when you read the script and it feels awkward. If it feels awkward, it is. That's it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're gonna be awkward delivering it. Like, I'll give you an example. If you feel. If someone says, oh, this guy actually said this to me when I was in a. He said, oh, I need to think about it. Well, why don't we think about it together? Two heads are better than one. I'm like, are you an idiot? Like, who says that? Like, you will tell your grandma that. That's the test, Right. The test is, would you tell your grandma that? If you would tell your grandma that, then it's okay. Because then you know that you have enough softness and rapport in this entire conversation. So the is, if the script feels awkward, it is. A lot of times people say, me, Sean, you know, I have imposter syndrome. I'm like, you have imposter syndrome because you are an imposter. You don't deserve it. Like, what are you looking for? Like, making you feel better? No. So I always ask them, like, Jeff. So, Jeff, for example, do you feel like you're an imposter being a podcast host?

[B]

No.

[A]

I'll tell you why. Because you have over 350 episodes and you've stacked the proof in your favor that you are who you say you are. Right? Right. That's why you don't feel like an imposter. But I will ask you this. Three episodes in, you're like, you felt awkward.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Absolutely. You had no proof to stack evidence in your favor that you are who you say you are. Now, if an agent is soft, kind, and has emotionally well scripted, they don't have to worry. They're not imposters because they just want to have a thoughtful conversation in service of the client. And so if they have that, they're not reading off a script book, they know that it's not awkward. And so it's super easy. And that's why all of this is easy. Like, I was on the. So after the appointment yesterday, Jeff, this listing appointment, the agent said to me, he's like, bro, why do I. When I go on appointments with you, why don't we get any objections? I'm like, because I have conversation. I don't try to solve an objection. I don't try to crush an objection like you from stage. Like, I'm just saying. How do you mean? Oh, you're curious about that? I wonder. So, like, the guy said to me, he goes, well, the. The other agent said it was worth that he could get a. He could get us 13 million. And I said, huh? Why not 14? But like, that's the truth, though. Like, that's the truth. Right? And I'll give you the zinger and all of this. Right? So a lot of agents right now are worried that other agents are buying the listing. Right? And, and, and which is. Which is okay. Because right now, when you. When there's lower in. By the way, everyone needs to understand this. When there's lower listing inventory, agents would rather accumulate listing inventory. They would rather just call Buy the listing, called the higher price and just take the listing. But we also know that it's not healthy for the home coming on the market and the process, etc. So literally, I told him this yesterday. I said, hey, Mr. Mrs. Client, would it be okay if I shared something with you about the real estate industry? And they said, sure. I said, in the real estate industry, we have an inside baseball term that we call buying the listing. Let me explain how this works. The agent will tell you a higher price than they can that can actually get to get you to sign the listing. We call that buying it. And then when they're inside the process with you, they'll get you to negotiate down. Now, you may not know this, but since you're in a contract period, you can't really do anything. So you're in a stalemate. Either you reduce the listing and they do more marketing, or you don't do anything and it just sits on the market and it leaves you in a tough situation. And they're like, huh? And I said, may I give you a way to protect yourself? What do you think? They said, of course. And I said, this is really simple. Did Jimmy tell you that he could get you 13 million? Yeah. Well, you should call Jimmy and tell him this. You should say, hey, Jimmy, we are open to going with you on the 13 million. However, we have one condition. If during the term of the listing you ask for a price adjustment, the listing is automatically cancelled. This is what you call skill, right? Most agents don't know that because now they think that they have to get in the appointment and refute Jimmy, the agent's credibility on why Jimmy doesn't know what he's doing or how he thinks. You can't do that if you know that they're buying the listing. Now, I'm giving the client a chance for me to protect them. Now, whatever happens in that transaction, I am the star. I either get the listing or I don't get the listing. And they love me anyway. And if they don't get the listing, it's not going to sell. I'm going to get it anyway because I looked out for protecting them. Right? Small little things like that, no one teaches because they've never talked to a client in their lives.

[B]

That's savvy is what that is. That's experience.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Right?

[B]

Yeah, I love that. Okay, so the first big takeaway is language. Get skilled at the ability to speak to other people. Be empathetic, be curious. It's kind of what I jotted down There obviously understand your industry. So you can sound smart as well. And this whole term, back to the basics, does that mean you're not implying. What pops in my head is this other kind of catchphrase, which is conversations leads to contracts, right? I mean, that's, that's ultimately what we need to do is be having conversations with people, right?

[A]

Yeah, let's talk about that. So all, all, all conversion happens in conversation, right? I mean, I'm a full believer that that's, that's a, that's, that's sales one on one. However, here's the fundamental thing that is broken in our industry, which is people think branding drives conversations. People think me saying, hey, Jeff and Sharon are number one that drives conversations. It doesn't, you know, so they say the just listed postcard, for example, like just list is good. However, you've taken a, what you've done for 100 days and you've combined that into two words, just sold, right? And so it doesn't show proof on what you did. So my suggestion around all of this is there are two types of marketing, right? Marketing makes sales easier. 100% agree. But there are two types of marketing and we have to be very clear as to which type of marketing we're using. If we're using brand based marketing, we're trying to get our word out there, people get to know who we are. It's just awareness. But to get a response, we have to use what we call direct response marketing. Like we need to create a response from them in some way so that we can start a conversation. And all conversion happens in conversation, right? So is there something that we're saying? So, like putting your phone number on a bus bench does not start a conversation, because as I'm driving, I'm not looking and taking down your phone number. That makes no sense. So the bus bench is actually a branding tool, not a direct response tool. If everybody took away all their phone numbers from bus benches, they actually will get more phone calls. No, I'm dead serious, right? Because if I said, you know, hey, if I said the resident agent, like the resident agent, resident investor and resident dad in Orange County, California, and I put my face on the bus bench, now what did they remember? Resident agent, resident dad, resident investor. Now the next time I run a Facebook ad or I send them an email or they come to an open house, now they're like, wait a minute, you've already pre framed who the brand is. Now I can run a direct response campaign. Most agents don't have the ability to Run a direct response campaign. For example, every agent should send this. They should send an email to their database. So they should look at their past, their old open house registries. By the way, lender partners can totally help with this process. They should get their old open house registries. Call from 10 weeks, 20 weeks, 30 weeks ago. And they should sit down at Starbucks with a cup of coffee because they don't have to talk to anybody. And they can look at the name. It says Jeff. And they have a phone number. And they should literally text you and say, are you still interested in buying a home in Orange County? Question mark, send. That is direct response. Because now that text forces a response to start a conversation. Now, one of three things can happen in that text, right? Number one is you can get. And everyone's. And the reason people don't do direct response is because they're not skilled as to what may happen with that direct response. So if I send that text to you and I say, no name, nothing. If I just said, are you still interested in buying a home in Orange County? Question mark, send. You can do one of three things. One, you respond with, who is this? Because you have no idea who this is. And what agents do is they freak out, right? Instead, all you have to do is to say, hey, this is Sharon. We met at 123 Real street and by the way, consumers don't know addresses. Only agents and consumers know all these. They don't, right? The one with the big red door. Now they remember, right? And then you put a picture of yourself, a selfie, and then you ask the question again, are you still interested in buying a home in Orange County? If you don't do that, then you don't have the ability to start a conversation. So now they know. Hey, if they tell me, who are you? I have a very clear response to that framework, right? Here's the second thing that can happen, right? They can say, yes, are you still interested in buying a home in Orange County? Yes, but who's this? There's a big difference there. That's called variable change. They've said, yes, they're still interested, but they don't know who this is. Now you say the exact same thing, hey, this is Sharon. We met at 123 Real street, the one with the big red door picture. By the way, since you're still looking to buy a home in Orange county, has your criteria changed? Because now I respond to the yes, again, I generate the conversation. The third is they just ghost you, right? They don't say anything for two Days. Then what do you do? Well, it's really simple. You take a picture of a expired, canceled, withdrawn, make me move, pocket, whatever, and you send them a picture of the home, just the front picture. And you say, hey, this is one of the homes that recently that we're looking at for our clients that is off market. Parentheses, not on Zillow, right? Are you still interested in buying a home in Orange County? Now, it shows proof that you have access to something that they don't have access to that generates a conversation. Small little thing that can generate a conversation. So people now can use this transaction Famine, as we're calling it, but drive more results by generating direct response conversations as opposed to saying, look at me, I'm number one. Look at me, I just sold. Look at me. All that. Because all of that goes to the trash. Jeff. I actually talked to an agent. He said to me, he's like, shranan. I sent out like 2,000 postcards on EDDM. And I'm like, good job, bro. He's like, my goal is to ensure that when the consumer holds it and they're walking with my postcard on the way to the recycle bin, they remember my name. I'm like, bro, you know that your postcard is so terrible that they're going to trash it, but you send it anyway to make yourself feel better. There's got no direct response to it at all. You know what he says to me? He's like, what would you do differently? I said, this is what I would do. I would set a blank postcard with a QR code and an arrow that says, this could change your life. They'll scan the QR code, it goes to your video. Now they're actually watching the video because they tactilely engage with your postcard because that is direct response. They responded to something that you send as opposed to walk to the trash can. And you played EDDM for that. And you think that your coach said, that's a good idea. Wow.

[B]

Because they're playing the exposure game, right? Repetition over time and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, top of mind awareness. So you just, you just showcased a second skill. We talked about the ability to dialogue and converse and things like that. But the second skill, I put that under the category of like modern selling. The ability to leverage, you know, to grab this, this thing, the phone that I'm holding up, which I often say, like learning to use this video, etc. You just demonstrated a detecting example. But this is a new skill, learning how to use this.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think there's this gap, which you referred to earlier, that we haven't caught up with, because that's. That's a strategy, you know, that I would guess most agents adding the photo is the next level of that. Like, most agents wouldn't think to do that at all.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And the reason is because most agents are wired with a branding mindset. Right? Because they. Because. And by the way, I grew up in the luxury markets. I'm the first one to tell you that, you know, your stuff's got to look good. But. But the. But the everyday agent is like, oh, man, that, that, that postcard looks really good. That design is so elegant. The elegant design does not get you conversations. Like, we got to generate a conversation. So you have to create something for a person to respond to, get you a conversation. Because all conversion happens in conversation.

[B]

Are you a fan then, of, like, you know, the ugly yellow signs and all that stuff?

[A]

I. So I'm a little different about that. I am not. Like, I don't like to make things ugly on purpose. I think that's dumb. Right. But I want to. I'm very. I'm a big fan of doing things in native environments. So if. If it's text message, I want the text message to look like a text message. If it's email, it should not look like a newsletter. Like, no, woke up in the morning saying, oh, my gosh, I'm really excited for Sharon to send me his flowery newsletter today. Like, with a bunch of, like, pictures and design. No, I'm checking email while sitting on the throne. Like, it needs to look like email. Right. And so, so I want the email to look like email, read like email, all of that. So I'm a big fan of native. Natively looking communication. So if you're. If you're doing a video, it needs to look like an Instagram video. If you're doing a Facebook post, needs to look like a Facebook post. You don't want to, like, jar people and be like, okay, that's dumb. So I don't want to go out of my way to create an ugly piece unless it's a strategy, but because otherwise it makes it look like you don't care. Right. And so I think a lot of people don't realize I'm not saying do ugly things. I'm just saying do the best you can, but don't sacrifice direct response for branding. Because you could brand all day and then assume that when something happens, someone will think of you. But Jeff and Sharon are Doing direct response and eating your lunch. That's the big difference.

[B]

Okay, so I think the big takeaway from part one of this conversation so far is skills. You've got to build up skills. You've got to become a modern agent. Right. Get with the modern times, use the tools of today's modern consumer. Right. So my other question is this is. Then there's two primary things I'm thinking in my head, but I want to take this question first is, you know, I saw a report come out recently, might have been a NAR report about what do you. I can't remember if it's sellers or I think it was buyers. What does a buyer value most from a real estate agent? And I thought this was opposite of it. What of what it used to say. But if I remember correctly, the highest one on the chart was help them find the right home.

[A]

Correct?

[B]

Right. And then like the second category that I've often seen over the years is help with the process. Understand the process. So what do you say to that? Does the consumer. Is that true? Because I noticed you, you know, in your example brackets, not on Zillow, like talk to me, walk me through that. Is that really do. Like, if I'm thinking right now, so here I am in Vegas, been here seven years. Maybe we're looking at a second home in Idaho, whatever. Like, how does that play into the mix of the consumer's mindset of help me find the home? Is that really what they think of an agent for?

[A]

No. So this is really interesting, right? So a consumer does not. My wife is the perfect consumer. She's on seven different drips, you know, and seven she gets. One of those are. Is a Zillow alert and one of those is a Redfinner. By the way, she likes the Redfini alerts more than anyone, any. Anything else, because she likes these. It's esthetically pleasing for her.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I have seen most. Tell me that. Right. And so even though an agent doesn't believe that that is. That is true. I don't. I don't believe that the modern consumer is. Has the mindset that an agent is going to help them find a home. I do not believe that. I do believe that the modern. The consumer believes that they will find the home. They will narrow down the search, they will do most of it, and then maybe the agent helps them kind of dial in the process. Now, most agents will probably disagree with this because they want to have more of an active role in the process. But before a. I would say nine out of 10 consumers have already started their search before they've ever talked to an agent. You know, so they are aware of the marketplace. The question then becomes, I actually think the modern consumer is unaware of the process. And they realize that. They realize the agent is just a natural part of the process that they can't get rid of. But they don't know why. That's the problem. They don't know why. And I think it's the job of the agent to explain to the client that why they do what they do. And I always, I use these words often. I say, hey, good process. And good process alone drives good results. So I always say, you know, hey, you are not hiring the agent. So I'll give you an example. Yesterday same, everything can go back to the listing appointment. Yesterday the client asked me, he said, I ask all my, ask all my, I've asked all other two agents, I'm going to ask you guys this too. And he says, why should we hire you now? Very interesting question. If you, if you, if you think about it, right, and this goes to the heart of like what consumers want. And I said, I really don't think you should. The guy's like, he starts laughing and I said, no, no, no, I didn't mean it that way. But you got, you got to create tension, right? What I meant to say was you're not hiring us, you're hiring our process. You're hiring our process that we have implemented for the last 10 years. A process that has actually delivered, you know, 212 homes in the last 12 year period across price points. A process that 212 families have prepaid to get us this entire blueprint that we're going to deliver for you. A process that you don't have to pay for, that all of these other clients have to pay for. And in fact, I'll tell you, Mr. Mrs. Klein, you are going to do this and it's going to help the client after you. Which is why it is our job to bring you offer that you want at a price that you want at terms that you want. And we do that with good process.

[B]

How important do you think a pre listing package is?

[A]

So think about this. It's interesting, right? So there is only two things that happen in a pre listing package. Again, most agents don't know this. They assume that their coach told them to drop a pre listing package out, but they don't know this. So two things happen in a pre listing package. Number one, you deliver a pre listing package and nine out of ten pre listing Packages are never opened, right? Never. Never open. They think they are, but they're not never open. And the one person that opens it is the extreme, analytical, anal person who found the typo on page seven. So technically speaking, it is useless to do a pre listing package, but I'm actually a good fan of this. So let me tell you how to do the right pre listing package. What you want to do is you want to do this. You want to take a. You know, I don't. What they call it in California, they call it a property profile, some kind of title public record report, right? You want to take a title public record report, maybe a couple of testimonials, etc. And then put it in a. In a brown envelope, like a manila envelope. And I do this, and I do this to all listings that I go on with our agents, however high the price point is. And on the back of the envelope I write, please do not open this till our meeting tomorrow. Right? And then I tell the agent to slide it under their door and then use that to reconfirm the appointment. So what you do is you say, hey, Jeff, just dropped something off for our meeting tomorrow. Can you just let me know if you get it? We'll see you at 4. So you text back that you got it. So now you have appointment confirmation as opposed to, hey, Jeff, I'm just checking in. Are you good for tomorrow? Bad right now? If I drop that off now, there's social accountability that you have to keep the meeting, right? So that's number one. When you get to the appointment, most people don't realize this. This is why coaches who have never talked to a client don't understand this, right? So when you get to the appointment, it's very awkward. It's very awkward because you're like, oh, hold on, let me take off my shoes. Where do I put this back? Like, it's a really terrible opportunity. Like, when you sit down, you don't you want to say, oh, you ski in Aspen. I ski in Aspen too, because somebody from 40 years ago told you that where they ski is important for you to have rapport. But that's actually not what you want is you want mechanical rapport, not emotional rapport, right? Because they know that you're trying to sell them something. Here's the crazy part. So I always say, when I get in the appointment, I sit down, I'm like, hey, this is really simple. Two words, two phrases. One. Hey, Mrs. Thank you so much for having us. Where can we sit down and strategize I don't do the tour first because the tour first is the worst thing that you can do because you're walking with their head behind your, in front of yours and you have no context of anything that they're going to say. And you're like, oh, I need to see the home before I give you the pricing. No one's asking for the pricing in the first two minutes. So you say, where can you sit down and strategize? But then when you sit down, here's what I ask. I'm like, hey, do you have the envelope that I dropped off yesterday? And then they bring it to. They're like, of course. And they bring it to. You know what they say? And as soon as they hand it to me, you know what I say, Jeff? I say, did you open it?

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

But here's the best part. When I say, did you open it? What am I trying to do? I'm trying to establish something. So one of two answers, right? First answer they say is, oh, of course not. We didn't open it. You told us not to. And here's how I respond. Oh, my gosh, you're the most perfect clients ever. I want you to have full visibility in the process. I just wanted to make sure to not stress you out in this entire process, which is why I told you not to open it. Let's open it. I'll tell you exactly what I mean by this. Right? Part two, let's say they say, oh, yeah, I open. Oh yeah, I opened it. I didn't read your message. You know what I say? Oh, yeah, you're the perfect clients no matter what, right? Because I have nothing to hide from you and you should open everything that I give you. I just wanted to make this process easy for you. Let's actually break this down and THEY BOTH OF THEM LAUGH now, that pre listing package has a very specific reason for me to actually start the meeting. Every other pre listing packet doesn't because then they start the meeting with questions and objections which you are not ready for because you never framed it in the first place. This is what skill is, right? Super interesting because, and I'll tell you, I've got over a billion dollars in listings taken. I haven't lost a listing appointment and I don't know, 15 years, it's the same process over and over. And the reason is it's not that I'm any better or worse than anyone else, it's just I know how to work the psychology because there's a skill associated with it. And Instead, everyone else is like, oh, I'm just gonna do the tour. I'm gonna lose rapport. I'm gonna try to reframe the. Then they don't know where the conversation is going. It's 20 minutes into the conversation, they tell me that their neighbor's kitchen is better and everything's done. That's every single listing appointment. In fact, if I just control the appointment with just that one. Now you can, you can add the pre listing packet to my manila envelope and it works. But you and I can talk right now, but I don't have any notes. I do this from memory. Right, right. Like everything that we're talking about. You can. Every single person you've interviewed on your show cannot do what I do from memory because they don't do this day to day.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's super important. And I say I'm better. I'm just saying the more skilled you are, the more money you make.

[B]

Yeah, no, that's, that's absolutely. You've got it stacked up. You're very intentional with your processes, obviously, as well. All right, real quick, before I run out of time. What? So we've got mortgage loan originators and some agents listening to this as well. I'm a big fan of integrating the mortgage professional into the process.

[A]

What, What?

[B]

How do you architect that or suggest that for your agents?

[A]

Dude, I think the number one most underutilized unfair advantage for real estate agents is not working in tandem with their loan officer. Now, the first thing I will tell you is if you're a real estate agent listening to the show with Jeff, one, good job. You're listening to the show. Number two, stop calling them a vendor. They are not your vendor. They are a partner. And let me tell you how they become a better partner. The better. They can become a better partner if you integrate them into how you run your business. There's two ways to integrate them into how you run your business. Number one, whenever you. If you're an agent, you're going on an appointment. By the way, loan officers actually listen to this. You should tell your agencies when they're going on a listing appointment. Every single agent should know that when we're going on a listing appointment, they should call their lender first. Especially if it's a lender driven or if it's a. If it's a mortgage driven purchase market. Right. Like Vegas, for example. I think what's. 80% of homes have a loan on them when they're there on purchase. Right. So you say, because what is the Client going to ask me, the client's going to say, do you have any buyers? But I can say, I have 3,000 buyers in my database. But the client doesn't believe me. Instead what I should say is, oh yeah, actually we have more than buyers, we have qualified buyers. Right now I want to show you a voicemail that our lender partner Jeff just left for me because I was briefing this with him and they play this voicemail Kardashian style in the appointment. So the appointment should I hit play and the appointment should say something like, I think I shared this with you at Ford, right? Yeah, it's something like you should say, hey Sharon, this is Jeff. Super excited that you're going on this appointment in this area. In fact, we actually have 32 pre qualified buyers that are in the 1.2 to $1.3 million price range. And I'm pre qualifying a few more. As soon as your home is ready and your clients give you the okay, I'd love to share that with these 32 buyers as a heads up because they need to buy a home in the next 60 to 90 days. As soon as you're ready for pre marketing, please let me know because I'd like to get it out to them. You play that in the appointment now. Now you are showing the agent, you're giving them access to a buyer pool that they never had with a legitimate proof based source that only you have. And the nice part is all the loan officers have all these pre qualified buyers. So you're not even lying, which is the greatest part in this process. Right? So that's kind of number. That's a no brainer. Every single loan officer should integrate their listing process with their agent partners because the agent should call and say, hey Jeff, I'm going on this appointment. Can you leave me a Sharon voicemail? You leave them a Sharon voicemail and they should play that voicemail in the appointment. It like it blows their mind when you play that voice around the appointment because no one else does that. Right? Here's the second way is after open houses. I don't think most agents take advantage of this because most agents do the open houses. They may at best, they may do the one follow up phone call saying, hey, thank you for coming to my open house. Most of them will just do a video and text it to all these people, but they don't do the follow up. Right. This is called the middleman frame. And I love it when there's an integration of the lender partner here where the lender Partner said, starts to call that list and says, you can say, hey, Mr. Mrs. Client. My name is Jeff, and you know, I'm a. I'm a mortgage lender with XYZ Company. I'm calling on behalf of Sharon Trivazza at Real. Sharon asked me to give you a call because all his private clients are blah, blah, blah, and I wanted to see if I could help you. Just dial in XYZ to get. Now that's insanely powerful because the lender partner knows if they go through that list, those are hot buyers that came into an open house. The agent feels good because he called on behalf of the agent and the lender partner feels good because now they have something live to work on, and it's very integrated in the process. We need to find a way to integrate the lender partnerships into our real estate business. Otherwise, you'll always just treat them as a vendor, and that's where the relationship breaks.

[B]

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, because you're creating win wins for each other. That's awesome. Those are two killer strategies right there. All right, you've been incredibly generous with your insight, knowledge, and experience. I want you to just go rapid fire real quick on an answer to this question. Then we're going to close out with, what are you excited about for 2025? I had to ask you this question just because of who you are in the industry. You're obviously, you know, very well experienced and have a great, I think, take on the industry as a whole. What is your quick take on the net net impact of the NAR settlement to the industry?

[A]

It said nothing. Burger. Okay.

[B]

All right, cool. Enough said then. Let's close out on this. What are you excited about? What's got you amped up? You know, really looking forward to whether it's a project or something coming up for the rest of this year.

[A]

I believe that we are going to see artificial intelligence be a very key part of our industry overall, both on the consumer side in looking at stuff as well as on the agent side in doing what they do. What most people don't realize, if you've ever done the job of an agent or a loan officer, you realize that it's almost 70% of what we do is very manual and mechanical. And if, if, if we can take that away, we're not quite there yet from a. And, you know, kind of a piece of AI that can do all of Jeff's work. We're not quite there yet, but I don't think we're that far off. Yeah. As soon as we get that, something amazing starts to happen. It forces the agents to have more creativity, more creativity on marketing, more creativity on skill. I don't think it takes away the agent skill. It dramatically takes away all the mundane, busy work and, and the error prone work that agents have to do. I'll give you a really simple example. We built this piece of technology at Rail and it's not commercial or anything, it's a function of AI where normally if there's a signed purchase contract, Jeff, I would upload it to the system and our brokers would review it. They would go through all the 96 pages of the contract and tell you that you're missing a signature on page two. Well, if there's 100 contracts submitted that day, our broker team's probably not going to get to it for four days, no matter how big the broker team is. Well now what we've done is we have a piece of technology that as soon as you upload the contract, it knows wherever the initials and signatures have to be and all the key fields, it scans it, all of it, and said there are three errors instantly. That alone, you can instantly just download it back, go get the others docuSign and come right back and you're done. Now that back and forth confusion is immediately solved. And now you may think that's an insane piece of tech, but it's foundational to how an agent runs their business. So what I see is going to happen is you're going to see more creativity and more skill. Have, you know, be in the agent world because all the admin work is taken away. When you take away all the admin work, when you take away all the mundane work, what stands creativity and skill and creativity for that? What creativity, I mean is ideas, brand content, marketing strategies, etc. Skill is when you're actually talking to a client, what do you do? How can you solve a problem? How can you say what you say those two can't be replaced. Those are very, very hard. Because in the middle the AI can do the manual work, but it can't come up with the creativity and it can't actually talk to the client yet. So I'm really excited to see agents live better lives, not, not being stressed out by the kind of the mundane stuff they need to do. But with the extra time, maybe my offer to them would be, hey, spend more time on the creative stuff and spend more time on the skill stuff because that will get you paid.

[B]

Yeah, love that. Yeah, it's gonna create efficiencies all across the board and let's use that free time, as you said, to get more skills, right, which is what we're talking about here today. So, Sharon, once again, thank you so much. For the listeners who want to connect with you more, we're going to put the links to your Instagram and your YouTube channel in the show notes because you got amazing content out there on the Internet and people need to click the link in the show notes right now, whether you're an agent or a loan officer. By the way, if you are an agent listening to this and you did get this from a loan officer, please thank them and let them know that they are now considered a partner, right? Not a vendor, because they want to help you and that's why they shared this episode with you. So, Sharon, once again, thank you.

[A]

Appreciate it, man. Thanks, Jeff.

[B]

All right, listeners, you know what to do. Leave a note in the show notes or leave us a review if you like this one. And by the way, share this with somebody else. Pay it forward. Thanks for tuning in. See you on the next one. Bye for now.