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Mortgage Marketing Radio
Why Most LOs Fail in 2025—and the Few Strategies That Are Crushing It
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- [00:00]
Jeff Zimfert
Hey, you've ever had one of those months where every deal feels like a battle? You know, from securing the client to keeping the loan from falling apart at closing? Well, that's the reality for many loan officers in 2025. But what if you could turn this market from a daily grind into your biggest growth opportunity yet? You're listening to the Mortgage marketerito podcast, the place where we help you effectively and confidently grow your business without chasing cold calling or using outdated tactics. My name is Jeff Zimfert and I'm your host. Today on the show, we're asking, how do you scale and grow a top performing team of originators in one of the most challenging markets in recent memory? To help us unpack that, I'm joined by Natalie Overturf, division leader at CMG Financial and a true force in shaping culture systems and scalable success for loan officers. In this episode, you're going to discover why hard is her defining word of 2025 and how the best are adapting and thriving. We'll also talk about what every lo must know about products and branding to stay competitive, the specific activities and strategies that are driving real production right now, from open houses to building partnerships, events and consistent, authentic social media. And we'll also dig into something that might shift your mindset, which is why the One Loan a Month producer is on the brink and what today's new baseline for survival really is. So if you're ready to stop surviving and start gaining ground and thriving in this market, stay tuned for this episode of Mortgage Marketing Radio. Natalie Overture, welcome to the show.
- [01:38]
Natalie Overturf
Hi, Jeff. I'm excited to be here today.
- [01:40]
Jeff Zimfert
I wanted to bring your perspective to the conversation here today because here we are in May, gosh, 27th, already almost the halfway point of 2025 here. Right. And so you are a leader. You're overseeing a region, a highly productive one of the top regions, you know, for your company. And I wanted to get your perspective on what is the vibe like. So. So we're talking to loan officers across the country at all different levels. Right. And experience level. Is there a theme or a word that you see kind of recurring for your team from a leadership perspective that you seem to always have? It's coming up that you have to deal with.
- [02:16]
Natalie Overturf
Yeah, I would say the word is hard. Like it's the word of the year of 2025. Hard loans, hard market, just hard. It's hard. And I feel like part of my job here in a leadership role is to make sure that my owner and exec leadership understands the Complexity and the difficulties of this market. Like, even when you get a deal in the door and you win the deal, it's keeping the deal. Like we're having more deals swiped at closing for price or inspection. Didn't go well. Or just people getting spooked and deciding to bail on a transaction than probably anything I've ever seen before. And so it, support from your company, tools, resources, pricing, innovation, all of it matters today because you got to have all the tools in your arsenal to make it work.
- [03:09]
Jeff Zimfert
How big is the division that you lead? How many. What's the headcount?
- [03:14]
Natalie Overturf
I'm at about 280loan officers today in my division. I'm actually the largest division at CMG today. We last month we closed. I don't know we're going to land for May, but April we were about 438 million in closed volume for my division. So it's a fairly large division.
- [03:30]
Jeff Zimfert
What are you seeing for like average units? And I know it can skew, but.
- [03:34]
Natalie Overturf
I, you know, I just looked at this interestingly enough because it is a really important metric right now as loans closed per loan officer. There is a divide happening to where you're seeing the top. What I would say probably 60% of Los Angeles capturing more business in the bottom 30 to 40 losing transactions that I think will force out, continue to force out that bottom rung of originators if they don't step it up. But we're right about 4, right about 4.3 loans closed per loan officer, which is a really good metric in our industry. It's probably in the top one or two compared to the other IMBs nationally.
- [04:20]
Jeff Zimfert
Yeah, I would say so. I saw there's a post I think on LinkedIn recently about that like average transaction count and there was a conversation around that was what do you think the average unit production should be to keep somebody on. Now, I don't want to put you on the spot here. Right, it's two.
- [04:37]
Natalie Overturf
You need to close two loans per month. And what I would say maybe depending on your loan amount, it's one to two, your average loan amount. I mean I have in my division, I have Idaho small markets to la, which is, you know, more metro, higher loan amounts. So LA loan officer can do one loan a month and survive. And my Idaho guy is probably doing two loans a month. So. But really it's for the health of the company. It's for the health of the originator. Like you can't survive. You're not in a career as a, as a loan officer. If you're not closing a deal a month, right. You, you don't know how to work in the systems. You're not actively marketing, you're not a part of the community. At least that's not our model. What I would say there's probably places you can go where you might do a couple of deals a year, but I don't think that serves the loan officer or our profession, honestly.
- [05:27]
Jeff Zimfert
Yeah, I mean, I know. I know plenty of my old friends in Newport Beach, California, where, you know, where I now live here in Vegas. So the loan amounts are different, but. Yeah, I mean, you know, if you're doing a million, $2 million. But as you said, it's like, is that a real business?
- [05:41]
Natalie Overturf
You know, it is. Probably not. No, probably not. And I have. I'm having less of those conversations. We were having more of those when we came out of the 21 market, right, where, you know, volume just took a nosedive. And I mean, we've lost a lot of. I don't know what the number is now. I mean, over a hundred thousand originators have exited the business over the last two years. And so I feel like there's a lot less of those people here, at least inside of our organization.
- [06:12]
Jeff Zimfert
Well, that speaks a lot to your culture, who you attract and who you keep. Also made a comment a moment ago when I asked you that question about average transactions, and you kind of alluded to something about another segment of the population of loan officers rolling out, and if they're not hitting a certain threshold of production, they're losing, whatever the terms is, you said. But what for the people who aren't hitting those numbers or, you know, the four per month, Like, I think you said something about, like, they're not being able to convert.
- [06:45]
Natalie Overturf
What's.
- [06:46]
Jeff Zimfert
What do you. Let's go a little bit deeper. Why do you think? Because you see how many, you know, how many people are in the pipeline. I don't know if you're looking at rate locks to conversions or how you're doing it. Okay. And then you're seeing how many are losing. And by price, let's say, I think, is what you said like losing on a quarter, an eighth or something like that?
- [07:03]
Natalie Overturf
Well, yeah. I mean, part of it is, for one, we're get, you know, if the market moves, you know, down, people try and swipe, you know, swipe a deal out of your pipeline at the last minute. We're seeing more of those kind of things happen where a loan officer lost the deal at the beginning and then tries to steal it at the end, we don't lose them a lot, but occasionally we're having to come back in with a price exception to keep the deal. I mean, I talked to a lot of my industry peers and it's happening. Right. Or we just have really complex loans. And so if you, if you are not a student of your craft and you don't know the guidelines, you don't know your way around, not just the standard 30 year fixed, but you understand our non QM, you understand, you know, reverse construction, renovation, like all the pillars of your business and you aren't able to place loans correctly, you're going to be at risk of not closing as many transactions. And I think we actually do a really good job of that here. I do a Monday call every Monday with my team. It's an optional call, but it's called our success stories call where I have a loan officer. It doesn't have to necessarily be someone, you know, that's in our top 10. Any loan officer that I see that's having successful success with a certain strategy or certain product will come on and share. It's a quick 30 minute kind of down and dirty call, but they share what they're doing. We really try and collaborate more. You know, the Rising Tide lifts all ships. You know, philosophy versus competing one against one another. It's more drafting off of each other. And so we really do try and, and spread the good word on what is working for others because it is a hard market and if we can lock arms and help each other, you know, it actually helps the team at large.
- [08:38]
Jeff Zimfert
Well, it's funny, I was talking to somebody the other day about this and it was in the real estate context, but I've said the same answer when people talked about becoming a loan officer because I have a fair amount of people who get on my calendar a variety of different ways at different levels of experience. But when somebody's newer, one of the answers I often they ask about, like how to, you know, succeed in this market, this business, whatever. I usually talk about, you know, find a team that you can join to get leadership mentorship to, you know, kind of learn the ropes. So I love that you alluded to that. It seems like your company is strong on, on that coming together as a team. And as you said, the Rising Tide lifts all boats.
- [09:13]
Natalie Overturf
Yeah. And I also think today it's, you have to be willing to put the work in. I think I, I saw a podcast that you did and I can't remember who said it, but it's like it's back to the basics. I mean, everybody's talking about this. It is back to the basics. It's eye to eye, toe to hotel. Like we went to, we had a national conference and one very successful builder originators asked the group, how many of you are going out every weekend to visit builder sites and open houses and you know, you might get 10% of your population that is doing that, which is a little shocking because I think loan officers feel like everybody's doing it. So I'm not going to do it too. That's actually not the reality. The reality is most aren't doing it and so there is opportunity there. You know that I do think we make assumptions that everybody else is calling that top agent or they're going out to open houses on the week. It just isn't true. It's not true. We're missing that.
- [10:06]
Jeff Zimfert
I used to think that too. I used to think that too when.
- [10:08]
Natalie Overturf
I was a loan officer.
- [10:11]
Jeff Zimfert
I remember having a conversation with Alec Hanson a few years ago. We were on each other's podcast and he was in my same market in Mission Viejo, Orange County, California. And he would tell the story about how sitting out in front of this open house and the mega producer agent was inside the open house and you would pull up and you know, he talks about the story, how he's like, he's like working himself up, pumping himself up to get the courage to go. And he's like too fearful and drives off. He doesn't go in. You know, we've all been there, we've.
- [10:39]
Natalie Overturf
All done that actually.
- [10:41]
Jeff Zimfert
Exactly.
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Natalie Overturf
I have to.
- [10:42]
Jeff Zimfert
Well, I want to go back to something else as well that you said. The hard is the word that you talked about. And then what I heard you say is something about, you've got to know your, like you mentioned, you know, dscr, non qm, you know, new construct. My question for you is this is, do you, you know, because we hear a lot about marketing, we hear a lot about niching down specialization and things like that. So do you think you need to be today more of a. You know, the word that comes to mind is generalist versus specialist. But it sounds like what you're saying is you need to today have a broad understanding of products to be able to deliver a solution because of the market.
- [11:23]
Natalie Overturf
I'm going to give you a really crazy answer. I'm going to say I think it's both. And I actually in my note, because I did take some notes ahead, one of the things that I find is really helping our top, top Producers is niching, niching down. But that doesn't mean they don't understand a broad variety of what's available in the marketplace. I mean, I, you know, you know, non QM obviously is becoming a bigger, bigger part of the marketplace. I think we've got 95 total different non QM products, you know, between all the different investors. I mean, obviously no one person is going to know all those products. But you need to have a general understanding of what a DSCR loan is and what bank statement or 1099 or, you know, so that you can help your clients. But niching, I think, is very important today because it's part of your brand and you have to have a brand is the. To. To really, I think, be relevant today as an originator. So I think it's both, actually.
- [12:19]
Jeff Zimfert
So you think the niche, the specialty brings them in.
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Natalie Overturf
Right.
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Jeff Zimfert
And yet it's kind of that argument we've always heard of, like, well, if I specialize, I'm going to lose out on all this other business.
- [12:29]
Natalie Overturf
Well, I actually took some notes on just a few of our top guys that are, that I feel are in our top 10 nationally. A few of them happen to be in my world. But I can just give you three of them are. Three out of these four are in my division. So Brady Thomas, he's in Oakland and.
- [12:45]
Jeff Zimfert
He, I know Brady.
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Natalie Overturf
Yeah, he's. He joined our team in January. He has the two home tango. So his kind of thing that he markets is basically being able to buy before yourself. That's his niche. That's his brand. He markets the heck out of it. But Brady does everything right. He's not just doing the buy before you sell. And so I think he is a great example of someone that niches, but.
- [13:11]
Jeff Zimfert
Still, but still attracts a wide audience as well, because people look at him for his expertise on that buy before you sell, and they're like, well, I don't need to do that. But this guy's obviously smart, knows what he's talking about.
- [13:23]
Natalie Overturf
That's what he does. That's what he's doing. Yes, he does a lot on social. So I also think he's done a really good job branding himself on social. Another really good example is Carrie Ann Sear. She's not in my market, she's in Nashville. But if you go to her social, she's all about events. The girl does events all the time. Not just puts on events, she takes agents to events. She's like, you don't have to actually put the event on. You can just Get a group together and go to events. She's like, put on dancing with the Start. She used to be a dancer. She puts on dancing with the Start. She goes like, big with it. But carry on's close. 50 million so far this year.
- [13:57]
Jeff Zimfert
Like, she's like, already in May.
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Natalie Overturf
Already in May. Brady's closed, right? About 50 million too. So they both are at that $50 million mark and they have chosen to find their niche. Right.
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Jeff Zimfert
Next question. I'm going to jump in here. What's their primary source of business? Do you know?
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Natalie Overturf
Agents, Realtors?
- [14:17]
Jeff Zimfert
What?
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Natalie Overturf
Real estate agents.
- [14:20]
Jeff Zimfert
I'm sorry, I thought agents were becoming irrelevant, you know, and like, we're going consumer direct and that's where everybody should be looking.
- [14:29]
Natalie Overturf
You know, I think it's so interesting over all these years, everybody's looking for kind of that magic unicorn source of business outside of the real estate world. But we still. The predominant source of business is real estate agents and builder. I would say these are not builder agents, but builder and real estate agents for sure.
- [14:48]
Jeff Zimfert
I'm having a little bit fun with it, obviously. The reason being is because I'm sure you see some of the narrative out there about people throwing agents under the bus, like, stop chasing the coffee. No agent wants to meet you for all the stuff we see. Right. And there's this narrative of like, forget agents. Aren't you tired of, you know what I mean, that whole thing. And like, you just proved the point.
- [15:16]
Natalie Overturf
Yeah. I mean, agents are. There are partners right in this. And if we partner and look at it as a partnership and approach, we shouldn't work with every agent, every agent shouldn't work with us. But there's a lot of very good real estate agents that approach this business, you know, professionally and want to partner with a good originator. And we work with a lot of them every day. I will say Harrison and Boise, the main source of his business, oddly enough, he niched out. We have our all in one first lean HELOC product, which is a big.
- [15:51]
Jeff Zimfert
Buy before you sell thing or. What is it?
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Natalie Overturf
No, it's. It's the all in one loan, which is basically, it's a purchase mortgage HELOC product. Right. So. And he. It's used with financial planners as a tool to pay off your home early. And so Harrison has found financial planners and YouTube influencers. He has a couple of YouTubers that he has found that he is actually working with to do lead generation with. And Harrison's right about. He's 44 million year to date. So that's Harrison I know. So Harrison, he's in Boise.
- [16:25]
Jeff Zimfert
And what's his last name?
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Natalie Overturf
George.
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Jeff Zimfert
George. I'm gonna look him up.
- [16:29]
Natalie Overturf
Yeah.
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Jeff Zimfert
Okay, cool. See now this is, this, this is what's great. Okay. We're not saying you shouldn't think about going consumer direct and be smart and be a modern originator and think about building a personal brand. Maybe having YouTube channel or you know, having social customer facing. We're not saying that.
- [16:47]
Natalie Overturf
No.
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Jeff Zimfert
Like what we're. I think you and I are on the same page of saying don't chase that. At the demise of the pillar, the one fundamental to, you know, referral partners, all that, that's more than now business, which is what I always tell those is like yes, like you need business now. Great, go with the referral partners. So I. And yes, build these other pillars here, but just know that those are going to be longer term.
- [17:10]
Natalie Overturf
Well, and it was longer term for Harrison. It took them a long time to build regular referral sources with the financial plan. It is, it's a longer term play. And I do agree, if you need business today, you need to be having regular conversations and meetings with real estate agents. It's the fastest way which most people.
- [17:25]
Jeff Zimfert
Need business today because they closed their loan last month. Right.
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Natalie Overturf
We all do. Right?
- [17:31]
Jeff Zimfert
Starting over every month, man.
- [17:33]
Natalie Overturf
That's right. I know, I remember. You remember Brian Hale. Do you know Brian Hale is so I work. He was our leader when I was at MetLife years ago. And I will never forget the shout out to Brian Hill. It's. He said on a call, the self sourced loan originator wakes up broke the first of every month. And I'm just like, there is no more true statement in this business. Having to recreate your success every 30 days. It's what makes our business so challenging and unique. But also we're well compensated for it because it is so hard.
- [18:03]
Jeff Zimfert
Yeah. Okay. So the word thus far for the year has been hard. I want to run the balance between strategy, you know, strategic and tactical. Because I always want to give somebody tactical that they can walk out of here today listening to us, watching us and apply. So is there any. Okay, so you've got your team meeting, your regional, you got the people on the call. Do you have a like, okay, go in your local markets, execute. Is there some activities you'd like to suggest that work right now?
- [18:35]
Natalie Overturf
Well, I would say open houses on the weekends are the place that people are going and getting business today. Like visiting open houses. It's. And very few loan officers are doing it. The other place that we're having a lot of success is being backup for builder preferred lenders being the number two. Like approaching the builder saying hey, we know you have your own in house or builder owned mortgage company but what we find is they have a very small box of available products for clients and so a lot of their fallout, they don't have any place for it. And so we actually have a couple of very large builders that we work with where we are actually getting the incentive that they would give the builder mortgage company that's tied to the builder mortgage company if it's a turndown that they give to us. So to me, those are the two places that you can meet people where they are. Right?
- [19:30]
Jeff Zimfert
Hey, are you tired of cold calling realtors and feeling like you're getting nowhere? With my agent classes you don't have to chase agents anymore. We hand you a done for you system of ready to teach presentations, plug and play marketing and even 200 producing agents to invite. So you can double your agent referrals in 90 days or less. Plus you'll get weekly coaching and a community of loan officers sharing exactly what's working with right now. Here's a quick win from one of our members.
- [19:55]
Natalie Overturf
Been part of my agent classes for a little over a year and totally changed my business. I grew at least 25% and that was during a pretty down market and have only grown every single month that I've kept doing it. Community is great job to the Friday calls. It's awesome. Have fun with it. Teach as many classes as you can. Just do more, do better.
- [20:18]
Jeff Zimfert
Are you ready to stop chasing and start attracting agent referrals on demand? Book a call at MortgageMarketing Pro or hit the link in the show notes. Now back to our show. What's the approach to the builder? You know, give me an example. I don't want to put you on a spot but like you know, the call or whatever, you know. Hi, my name is Jeff with CMG and yeah, well first of all I.
- [20:37]
Natalie Overturf
Do your research, right? We actually have a new technology called Zonda which is a data store.
- [20:46]
Jeff Zimfert
Is that that commercial? Yeah, it's the app. The app that has all the builders.
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Natalie Overturf
Mmi for building, right? So you can literally go and see who's got standing inventory, you know, who's doing loans, what kind of product they have. So I always say you shouldn't use the pray and spray approach. You need to be strategic, do your homework and then find out who, who's the gatekeeper, right? It is visiting the site, meeting the site. Agent finding out who you need to talk to. You know, who are the decision makers, you know, bringing them coffee on the weekend, you know, starting to build those relationships. I always say it's a long game. Right. This isn't Rome, wasn't built in a day. But find out who the decision makers are and then approach them with a proposal. Like, we have this, this and this product. We can help you move. We do. We do builder forwards, many builder forwards. So a lot of companies do. Builder forwards are being able to lock inventory that's sitting with, you know, builder concessions that you can advertise a rate on. I mean, we bring them strategies and how to teach their sales team how to sell sitting. And there's a lot more sitting inventory, inventory today than there was three months ago. I mean.
- [21:56]
Jeff Zimfert
Yeah, for sure.
- [21:57]
Natalie Overturf
A lot more. So there is an opportunity when, when homes are flying off the shelves, like in 20 and 21, you're just, you know, another loan officer. Today we can be partners and approach it like, let me help you sell a home. So.
- [22:11]
Jeff Zimfert
Right. So for those who didn't catch it, that's called Zonda, I believe.
- [22:15]
Natalie Overturf
C O N D A.
- [22:17]
Jeff Zimfert
Right. And that's a. That's a tool like mmi, but for builders, which is an intelligence database tool.
- [22:23]
Natalie Overturf
That's correct.
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Jeff Zimfert
That's cool. Yeah. I've heard of other ideas because what the builder wants is they want traffic, right?
- [22:29]
Natalie Overturf
Yes.
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Jeff Zimfert
And so I've heard of loan officers that will host events. You know how they do the listing pitches, like realtors show up and they go, here's the listings. I have the hot listings. Or here's a hot buyer.
- [22:42]
Natalie Overturf
That's a great idea, actually. Yeah.
- [22:46]
Jeff Zimfert
Good. I can pour an idea into you today. But. But yeah, I've had a couple who've done that successfully because then they're like, hey, can I host a listing pitch at this, you know, builder development? We're going to get 20 agents in the room and they're all going to see the development, the problem, more exposure and all that fun stuff. Now, depending on the builder requirements, what they have with that. But that's useful and. Or other types of just social functions and events. One of the ones we have here in Vegas in the city is there's a place where called. It's called downtown and it's kind of older non strip for those who aren't in the know in Vegas. And there's a high rise being built in this area that's been totally refurbished and it's by Siegstrom hall, which is this like place where they have these amazing symphonies and plays and concerts and stuff. Anyway, this is a high end, high rise. I'm talking 2 million above PER, per unit. And realtors and lenders in title have been hosting their weekly month, you know, listing pitch meetings there right instead of at the local restaurant.
- [23:46]
Natalie Overturf
Oh, that's such a great idea. If you have those places available. I love that. I love anywhere where you can get people together. And as far as strategy is concerned, I mean I do a call every week with top producers who share what they're doing. And from a strategy perspective, there's a couple of things that I see are working. Number one, social media people getting committed to a social media strategy. And that's not posting once a week, that's posting every day and really being very consistent. And what. And I've recently really started going, you know, posting every day on my social media and I am starting to see traction and more followers. But it is a commitment and you got to commit to it. But the ones that I, I mean we, I had a guy on my, on my call a couple of weeks ago, he's out of New Mexico and he has doubled his business from last year to this year and the year before doubled from that year to this year. So he has literally had a 200 imp percent increase in his business year over year over the last two years basically. And he, he credits it social media 100%. His name is Paul Parsons out of New Mexico and he's just an awesome guy. Small market, small loan amounts going outside of his market. It's allowing him to reach outside of his market, his immediate market, where it's a little bit slower or he's worked with a lot of the people there. So it's definitely allowed him to extend his reach. So social media, do you have any.
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Jeff Zimfert
Idea what kind of content or which.
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Natalie Overturf
Platform Instagram has been? Mostly what he does. And he posts three or four times a day. You can go, you can go look at his Instagram handle. Paul Parsons creative stuff, some funny videos, some of its educational content, some of it's at closing, some of it's his personal life. He does a little bit of everything. Market updates a few doesn't do. I mean he says quit posting, you know, the boring charts, you know that, you know, it's not that you don't put some of that on there, but you need more exciting content for people to engage. But he said he's just getting more creative.
- [25:42]
Jeff Zimfert
I found him right here. I'll put a link in the show notes. But it's home loan superhero.
- [25:47]
Natalie Overturf
Yes, that is him.
- [25:49]
Jeff Zimfert
This is Instagram. Yeah, very interesting. All right, go check that out. So people, go follow his content, see what it's all about. What do you. Because you obviously see a lot of loan officers with the size of the team that you have. Speaking of social media, what do you see as the most common areas of resistance that keeps people from really tapping that video? Don't want to be on video. Don't like this video.
- [26:12]
Natalie Overturf
Yes, they don't want to be. They don't want to hear themselves, they don't want to see themselves. And I always tell them like, that's what you look like, that's what you sound like. So I can't hide that, you know, and I do think that. And it's interesting because I have twin daughters that are 20 years old, they're both in college and I talk to them a lot about what's going on with AI and it's a, you know, it's an emerging thing for them in the job market that they're looking at out of college. And there is a real desire for authenticity now where people want to see the real you on video and talking. They don't want the polished, over edited, you know, they want to see real and, and I think that trend will continue to be honest and get on video. Talk about yourself, talk about what you're doing. Let people get to know you.
- [27:02]
Jeff Zimfert
Well, I want to geek out for a second on the video because I'm sure you've seen the AI generated videos.
- [27:07]
Natalie Overturf
I have seen the. I've tried that. Hey, Jen. And I just can't get the voice. Does not sound like mine. I just wanted to give it a try. Like that doesn't even sound like me.
- [27:15]
Jeff Zimfert
Just give it time. It will. What's your take on that? Yeah, just open ended question.
- [27:22]
Natalie Overturf
Yeah, I, well, I'm an adopter because I, I use ChatGPT a lot. I use, I am a big fan of AI. I use plod, I use typeset. Actually, Jeremy Forcier turned me on to a couple of cool things a few weeks ago when I saw him in a Mastermind. Like I'm a big fan of AI. I feel like if you're not in a doctor, you're going to get left behind. I do have some mixed feelings about it though, especially with video, you know, your avatar being generated. You need to tell people that's not you. I mean, that's my thing. It's like there needs to be a disclaimer on there that this is a Video or AI generated.
- [28:00]
Jeff Zimfert
Yeah.
- [28:01]
Natalie Overturf
Yes. So to me, we shouldn't be fooling people. We should. We should tell them what they're getting now, whether that will become. There's not a lot of rules around AI yet. So it's kind of that wild, wild west. We'll see where it goes.
- [28:16]
Jeff Zimfert
Well, I think it goes back to the point you're really making and this, you know, even further back to what is the number one source of your top producers business. And it's, you know, comes back to having conversations. Isn't that the real game of everything we're trying to play? Whether you're running ads, whether you're doing social, you're doing classes and events, the bottom line is how many people you're talking to.
- [28:34]
Natalie Overturf
That's right. And I always tell my team, when I look at my success, the success I've had over the years, whether that was an origination or recruiting or business development, it always is in direct correlation with the number and quality of conversations that I have every day, whether that's over the phone, in person. And so many of our loan officers are just resistant to the phone. I mean, I work a lot with my team on, you got to pick up the phone and call people or get out and see people in person. Like, you can't hide behind email. You can't hide. You have to get out and talk to people.
- [29:02]
Jeff Zimfert
Those, those originators you refer to there that are resistant to the phone. How long have they been in the business?
- [29:08]
Natalie Overturf
Long time. A long time.
- [29:09]
Jeff Zimfert
I don't, I don't. That doesn't make sense.
- [29:12]
Natalie Overturf
They don't want to call people that they haven't worked with in a while. And in fact, I had an interesting conversation with one of my loan officers, worked for us for a really long time and actually did a lot of volume in 2021. And I do think, and this is not to be critical or judgmental, there. There we were in a decade of our business where if we were doing a good job with our database and we're staying in good contact with our agents, business kind of just kept rolling, right. We didn't have to do a lot of the extra. And we're in a market where you have to do the extra. I mean, I just saw what. The purchase market's down 7 and a half percent year to date. I mean, purchase market is not growing right now. In fact, it's shrinking a little bit. And then the refis are kind of like going like this, depending on what's going to happen in the interest rate. Market. And so she's like, I just can't see myself out, you know, going to open houses and calling on these young agents that, you know, I know more than they know. And I'm just like that. If that's how you're gonna think about it, you're right, you shouldn't be doing that because you're probably not gonna stay in this profession for the long term.
- [30:12]
Jeff Zimfert
Ego getting in the way, like, you know, open houses are beneath me.
- [30:16]
Natalie Overturf
Yeah, I think it's part of that. I think it's just exhaustion too. I mean, I think there's a certain part of, you know, the originator that's been doing this a long time that just doesn't maybe have the energy. But I have younger contingency of loan officers that are. And I have one that's in their late 20s, all the way into their mid to late 30s that just are getting after it. Right. They just don't have all the kind of the same paradigms and the old stuff and they're just excited for the opportunity.
- [30:48]
Jeff Zimfert
Well, it reminds me, earlier today I was on someone else's podcast and they were asking similar questions and you know, not to sound self serving, but, you know, five years ago. They're referring to this book I wrote five years ago, which is called Disrupt or Die. I read that book, thank you very much. I don't have my shelf behind me anymore because I redid my office here. But the whole point of this is, you know, there's something I talk about in there and I've talked about a lot, which is the whole notion of survival of the fittest. And that's actually not accurate if you want to go back to. And I don't want to be like, oh, I'm a Darwin guy, but I actually looked up the actual original kind of writing of that survival of the fittest. And that's not actually accurate. It was, it's not the strongest to survive. It is the most adaptable to change.
- [31:35]
Natalie Overturf
That's right, yes. I could not agree more. And if you are not going to adapt right now, you're, you're going to be in trouble. Maybe not today. It's not going to take long. And I, I feel like AI is not going to take over. I don't, I mean, it's interesting that everybody asks, what do I think about the, the rocket redfin, you know, the acquisition there. What kind of impact is that going to have? You didn't ask me, but no, I'm.
- [32:01]
Jeff Zimfert
Glad you brought it up because it's relevant I wanna.
- [32:03]
Natalie Overturf
Yeah, yeah. It's a really interesting. I looked up like rocket has like 4, 4% market share. Redfin had less than 1%. Right. And so you. That's 5% market share. But they're saying that could four times. Right. Because of the capability with search that it could go to 16%. They would go from 4 to 16 because of this 1% acquisition. Because of the search and the brokerage and I don't know if I buy that. I gotta be honest with you. Redfin was. Gives them some strategic players but Rocket is still Rocket. Right. It's. It's the bot that you're doing alone with our superpower is our humanity and our ability to connect and build relationships. And Rocket has tried to have the self sourced originator out markets and it didn't work. They tried to get realtors to be loan officers and that didn't work. They actually did away with that program. So I think they'll take some share. And maybe I'm being naive but I think if we do our jobs and we do them well. Yeah, we can at least on the purchase front. Refis.
- [33:12]
Jeff Zimfert
Yeah.
- [33:13]
Natalie Overturf
Are different.
- [33:13]
Jeff Zimfert
That's what I was going to say. For me, the Mr. Cooper acquisition is a little bit more troublesome.
- [33:17]
Natalie Overturf
Well, in general are going to be tough for the self sourced originator. Unless comp comes way down on those. It's just going to be very, very hard. Very hard to compete.
- [33:27]
Jeff Zimfert
Right. Well, I mean I always lived and died by the refi. Right. So that you've got to build your purchase pipeline or else what are you really doing?
- [33:36]
Natalie Overturf
Yes. Yeah, I agree.
- [33:38]
Jeff Zimfert
You know, your word that we opened up with is pretty accurate because it is hard. Harder. There's so many more things to consider these days with. You know, back when I got in in 2003, there was no social media. Right. And so it was pretty clear, man. You know, go out and meet people, do events, all that fun stuff, you know, phone calls. And it was just like now it's just like, oh, I need a personal brand, I need video, I need this and this and this.
- [34:03]
Natalie Overturf
And I think people get overwhelmed because there is like so many options. And my advice is pick one. Right. Cindy Ertman, she's my coach with a defining difference. She always says you can never have more than three cars out of the garage. Right. You can't have more than three strategies. And that to me is probably too many. You probably need to have one or two. Like if you're gonna go all in on social, then do your social and I can name probably 5 or 6 Los this last year that have done it and are starting to really monetize it and get results from it. It takes a year. Right. It's not something that happens right away.
- [34:36]
Jeff Zimfert
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think the problem is, is people do the hummingbird thing. They keep going from different thing to different thing to different thing. Right. And. And diluting their power.
- [34:47]
Natalie Overturf
Yes.
- [34:47]
Jeff Zimfert
I love the three car approach. And yeah, you might be right. Might. Might be too many cars.
- [34:52]
Natalie Overturf
Some people are extra special. They can have the three cars out. I'm probably one or two. You know, the Gary. Is it Gary Keller. The one thing, you know, just picking that one thing. That's where I've kind of found my success. Kind of going all in on one thing at a time.
- [35:06]
Jeff Zimfert
Yeah. Very interesting. Okay, so here we are at the halfway point pretty much of the year, rolling into June here in a few days. I know, right before you know that it'll be Christmas.
- [35:17]
Natalie Overturf
Insane.
- [35:19]
Jeff Zimfert
What type of coaching would you be doing for people to have to finish this year strong? Yeah. What would you advise they do? And if it sounds repetitive, that's okay. Because guess what? Fundamentals always win.
- [35:31]
Natalie Overturf
But yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, I'd revisit your business plan. And if you don't have a business plan. That's a business plan. Yes. Do a business plan. So, I mean, it really is. I don't want to say it's simple because it isn't simple, but the fundamentals are simple. Right. You need to have a plan, you need to have systems, and you need to have disciplines. And so you got to go back to do I have those things in place first and foremost. And do a check the SWOT analysis. Right. Go through and make sure you've got your calendar dialed in, your disciplines dialed in. Because what I do know is it, it's, you know, was it atomic habits? You don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. If you do not have those in place, you're going to be flailing. And so what I, what I generally see is loan officers who just don't have any plan that are just kind of winging it. They're just, they're flailing and they're suffering. And it doesn't have to be that way. Get a plan, Figure out what those disciplines are and commit to it. And commit to it for 30 days. Do it every single day. Find an accountability part. That's the second thing, Jeff. Like, I am big on coaching. I'm A big. I've been coached since 2005. I've had a coach. And if you don't want to invest in coaching, find somebody who will hold you accountable. At least like, that will hold your feet to the fire, that you can declare publicly what it is that you're saying that you want to do, whether it's a health goal or professional goal, but get some accountability in your life. It makes a big difference.
- [37:03]
Jeff Zimfert
I love that so much. Get some accountability and get a coach. And I don't understand, if you don't have somebody else to. To essentially look over your shoulder, how do you see your blind spots?
- [37:14]
Natalie Overturf
Honestly, it is so true. I mean, I've had two coaches at one time. I was coaching with Richard Milligan for recruiting and Cindy Ertman, because Richard was a specialist in recruiting, and Cindy was helping me build my team. And people just thought I was kind of crazy. And I pay for it all myself, my company. I mean, if you're not going to invest in yourself, who will? In fact, there's that Instagram guy, I can't remember his name, where he goes and he sees people driving up in really expensive cars, and he asks them, how did you make your first million dollars? Or how much money? What's the most money you made in a year? And I saw him ask a gal who drove up in, like, a Lamborghini and really fit, you know, she was probably in personal development or training or something, and he's like, what's the most money you made in a year? And she's like, $10 million. And he said, well, what's your one piece of advice? And she's like, invest in yourself, because if you won't invest in you, who will? And why should anybody else? And I think we forget that in this business. Loan officers, we want everybody to pay for everything for us. And at a certain point, Carl White says that, you know, if your company won't pay for the assistant, pay for your own assistant. Because if you're so confident you can get there, then pay for it yourself. So we have to invest in ourselves.
- [38:24]
Jeff Zimfert
Yeah. How seriously are you taking it? I mean, you have the ability to earn a million dollars in this business. Not saying you need to or want to, but you have the ability, the upside. And, yeah, if you're in a place in your business right now where you're frustrated, you're burnt out, you're challenged, I get it. We've all been there. And I think it's just like you need to decide, what do you want to do? Do you want to continue and do you want it to continue as it is? Because you know something's got to change. Right. And well, you know, in order for things to change, guess who's got to change. Right?
- [38:52]
Natalie Overturf
That's right. The definition of insanity. Right. Doing the same thing, expecting different results. And I think we do that a lot and our lives. I'm just as guilty. I mean, I luckily have a coach and you know, support system that shakes me out of it.
- [39:05]
Jeff Zimfert
Right. And I want to say that too as well before we wrap up here. In terms of, I mentioned earlier about people, realtors, loan officers ask me, you know, and I suggested go to a team. And the other part I say with that is I look at company culture. So your company culture, just, just for the 20 or 30 minutes we've been talking here, I've heard multiple references to your team, your infrastructure, your support, your accountability, your, you're coaching. So it's no wonder people thrive in that environment. And I feel for people who come to me and I have a conversation, I ask about their current environment or situation. Maybe they're at a broker where there's less support and it's like, okay, so maybe that's how you're going to pay for coaching. You're going to give up basis points, but you're going to go to a company maybe like CMG where it's just like you're going to be in an environment now who actually will lift you up and support you with different resources. And so what do you give up for that? Maybe some bips, but guess what, you make it up in volume.
- [39:55]
Natalie Overturf
Yeah, I always say, I mean for one, I will never badmouth any platform. I mean you need the broker, you need the imb, you need the bank, the credit union. It's an ecosystem and it's very good for us to have competition. It's what keeps pricing in check. It's good for the consumer, it's good for our comp, product development, innovation, all those things. But what I, what I will say is when people want to go, you know, to a broker for comp or price, here's what I tell them. You can have that same comp or price here because what are you giving up to have that comp or that price? There's always trade offs. We all get the same amount of dollars in trading. You know, maybe our execution get a little sharper if you're bigger and you know, securitizing. But it's not a lot, right. So mostly we're playing with the same dollars so what are you giving up? What are the choices? And I'm not saying that I'm the right place for everybody. There's lots of great companies. But I will say platform and support probably matter more today than. And I've been in this business for years. I've never seen an environment where people need structure, they need accountability, they need strong leadership, they need coaching, they need cheering, they need all the things. Right now. It's really hard to be a solopreneur right now. It's lonely and it's hard.
- [41:11]
Jeff Zimfert
Oh, especially in the market that we're in, so volatile.
- [41:14]
Natalie Overturf
There's some great big broker teams that have banded together and all work together, but that one guy sitting his house, you know, that's a heart. That's a hard thing to do. I mean, good luck to you.
- [41:25]
Jeff Zimfert
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I can remember when I first started going back to the countrywide days. In the early days, one of the benefits I had was, you know, I had a sales manager and I could walk in and run scenarios by him. You know, like, I was too green to understand, like, can I make this deal work? And then, you know, he and I would sit in his office and we spend 20, 30 minutes going through this file and figuring out, can we make it work? Like, what's that worth?
- [41:47]
Natalie Overturf
Well, and we're back in that day. Because deals are so complex and so difficult. Like, I was just talking to our underwriting leader the other day, and we have a. We have a chat open to all ellos. That's underwriting, where anybody can put a scenario in there. And I watch. I watch all the scenarios in there. And thank goodness we have a group that, you know, we can bounce things off of one another because we learn from that. But also, some of the scenarios I'm seeing, I'm just like, that is crazy town. You think you see it. You've seen everything. And it's like you see something that you've never seen before. So it is important to have that community around you, in my opinion.
- [42:25]
Jeff Zimfert
All right, so we're closing out with what to do for the balance of this year was have your business plan in order. Fundamentals are always in play. Anything else you want to add to that?
- [42:35]
Natalie Overturf
Well, I would say don't settle. Like, you know, you can do more. And what. What are you compromising on? Most people are settling when they say they want to do more. They're really content where they're at. And so I do a gut check on that. I mean, we. What I would say I heard Darren Hardy say I go, you know, I go to lots of things. And I. I remember him saying, we. There really aren't any new ideas. There's variations. We know what to do. We need reminders sometimes. We need that accountability. We need a swift kick in the booty sometimes. I know I do. But why? Why are you stuck where you're stuck? And really do a hard look at that. And maybe it is you need a new company, a different platform. Maybe it is just a meeting with your manager to say, I need help. Ask for help if you need help. This is the kind of market where a lot of us need help. We don't have all the answers. So, you know, for me, it's like, don't settle if you're feeling like you're not where you want to be.
- [43:39]
Jeff Zimfert
That's. I love that. Don't settle. And it goes back to the, to the environment you're in as well. Because if you're not in an environment that's lifting you up, if you're not surrounded by people who want to take the challenge of the market head on.
- [43:50]
Natalie Overturf
That's right.
- [43:51]
Jeff Zimfert
Like, yeah, get around the right people who have the right mindset, who can break you out of that. You know, I wrote down growth mindset versus fixed mindset. If you're around people over, fix mindset.
- [44:03]
Natalie Overturf
At my notes on the few people that niche down, I mean, I was looking at just the handful. I mean, Brady's at 50, Harrison's at 46 million. Danny Meyer is 93 million year to date in personal production. He's my top producer up in Seattle. Snow homeish market. So there are people doing remarkable things and remarkable volume. So the business is out there. That's the one thing I remember. Rosemarie. David, I don't know if you've met Rosemary. She's my boss. She's been my boss. We've worked together for 20 years and she's been my boss since 2011. And I never forget she says this individual originator cannot own market share. So the good news about that is I can double the amount of my loans, right? I can go from 2 to 4 or 4 to 8 or 8 to 16. Like, it's much difficult, more difficult for CMG to double their market share, right? But for me as an individual, I can go double my market share. I can triple, I can quadruple it. That's within my power and my grasp. And so it's just figuring out what are those strategies, how do I take ground? And the last thing I will say, the thing that is what gets me up and excited in the morning is this is the kind of market where you can take ground because they need you today. They didn't need us in 20 and 21 when, you know, homes were 10, 12, 20 offers. Right. They need us today. We're a valuable asset today if we're doing our jobs right.
- [45:27]
Jeff Zimfert
Yes, absolutely. Reminds me of the phrase separation season. Heard that said by a number of people. And I'll just kind of put a cherry on top of your point about you can double your business. One of the exercises I often take an ELO through when they get in that fixed mindset. And I used to do this in Orange county. Whenever I would get down on me, right, And I'd be like, how come my business isn't growing? It's a tough market. I would pull up the purchase sales in my county and I would look at how many purchase transactions went down and I would ask obviously, how many of those did I get?
- [46:01]
Natalie Overturf
Right? That's right.
- [46:02]
Jeff Zimfert
And you know, it'll vary based on markets, but there are hundreds of purchase transactions going down in your backyard right now.
- [46:10]
Natalie Overturf
That's right.
- [46:11]
Jeff Zimfert
You just heard from you your example of Danny doing 90 million, Brady doing 50 million, you know, and it's just like there is business to be had. Let's completely just.
- [46:21]
Natalie Overturf
How do you get that share of the pie? I mean, that's really what you got to ask.
- [46:24]
Jeff Zimfert
It's just harder to get it.
- [46:26]
Natalie Overturf
Jeff, you're, I mean, you offer pre done classes. Like to me, that's what I would be doing. I'd be going out and teaching classes and holding webinars and getting in front of as many. The one to many strategy, right. Getting in front of as many realtors as I possibly could. Even if only two show up, that's two more than you had, right. That show up for your class. A lot of loan officers get stuck on having to be, you know, CE certified. No, it doesn't teach a class on what are the latest AI tools that they need to use. You'll get, you'll get 10 agents to show up for that. I mean, to me it's like, you know, education. Lead with education, right? That's the, that's the key to winning in this market.
- [47:06]
Jeff Zimfert
Thank you, by the way, for bringing that up. But it goes back to what is the problem with when I do webinars and all this stuff with loan officers. You know, I have. There's five reasons why you don't get enough referrals, but usually it comes back to more Often than not, the reason why most LLs aren't getting enough referrals from agents is they're simply not talking to enough people.
- [47:21]
Natalie Overturf
That's right.
- [47:22]
Jeff Zimfert
Period. And that's what the one to many approach does. So, yes, if anybody's interested in that, they know how to reach me. Anyway, we are officially out of time. This has been fantastic. We could keep riffing for another 30 minutes, but I know you're busy. What's the best place for people who want to connect with you? Maybe just follow you because you put out some great content. By the way, I follow you on LinkedIn predominantly.
- [47:43]
Natalie Overturf
Oh, thank you. Yes, I am on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram and Facebook and it's all just Natalie Overturf. I don't have any fancy handle. It's just Natalie Overturf. I post almost every day on Instagram and Facebook and at least weekly on LinkedIn.
- [47:58]
Jeff Zimfert
So I need to see you're inspiring me now, like to post daily. I'm still working through them.
- [48:03]
Natalie Overturf
I have to give a shout out to Michelle Berman.
- [48:06]
Jeff Zimfert
She's Michelle, what's up? Listening Michelle.
- [48:08]
Natalie Overturf
Yes, she's the swift kick in the booty for me on that. She holds me highly accountable.
- [48:13]
Jeff Zimfert
Oh, yeah, yeah. She will definitely hold a high standard.
- [48:16]
Natalie Overturf
Yeah, she's amazing.
- [48:18]
Jeff Zimfert
Well, listen, I'm going to link up your social profile in the show notes so everybody can follow you. Say hi. And if, by the way, if you're listening to this and you heard this episode, just DM Natalie and let her know, hey, heard you on the episode.
- [48:29]
Natalie Overturf
I would love it.
- [48:30]
Jeff Zimfert
Yeah, let her know what's one thing that stood out from you for this episode? So Natalie, can't thank you enough. Thank you for being here.
- [48:34]
Natalie Overturf
Thank you, Jeff. I'm a big fan. I love your podcast.
- [48:37]
Jeff Zimfert
Thank you so much. And listeners, you know what to do. Follow Natalie. If you like this episode, leave us a review. We'll see you on the next one. Bye for now.
- [48:43]
Natalie Overturf
All right, take care.
- [48:44]
Jeff Zimfert
Okay, that's it for today's episode. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to remind you about my agent classes. Your proven system to double your agent referrals in just 90 days. Imagine never having to cold call again. Instead building real lasting relationships with top producing agents who want to send you business with done for you presentations, marketing, automation, weekly coaching. It's all designed to make growing your business easier and fun. So if you're ready to take control of your agent referrals and grow your income, visit MortgageMarketing Pro or check the link in the show notes. And while you're there, don't forget to check out the success stories from other mortgage pros who've already seen incredible results. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you on the next episode.