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- [00:00]
A
Hey listeners, I hope you are having a great summer and you're enjoying this season of Moving Moments. Before you hear our season finale, I want to thank you for your continued support and enthusiasm. I'm so grateful we're busy preparing for more inspiring interviews. Be sure you're following the show wherever you get your podcasts so you can get an alert when the next season drops. In the meantime, if you're new to Moving Moments, go back and check out some of our earlier episodes featuring Sarah Mearns, James Whiteside, Wendy Whalen, Bobby Jean Smith, Justin Peck, Kyle Abraham, Judith Jamison, Misty Copeland, and so many more. And lastly, be sure to check us out on Instagram at Moving Moments podcast or@artfulnarrativesmedia.com thanks again for listening and I hope you enjoy the season finale with Ohad Naharin Israeli choreographer and dancer Oha Naharin was the artistic director of the internationally celebrated Bathsheba Dance Company for nearly three decades before assuming his current title of house choreographer. During his tenure with Bathsheba, he developed Gaga, the innovative movement, language and pedagogy that has defined the company's training. Ohad believes that Gaga allows dancers to go beyond their familiar habits to find a range of new possibilities.
- [01:29]
B
You can see two dancers doing the same movement and one will bore you and one will make you cry. We possess very similar treasures, but many of us didn't get the keys to open up those treasures. One of them is locked. So Gaga is a lot about finding the keys, first of all, to open up your own treasures.
- [01:50]
A
You're listening to Moving Moments, the podcast that explores the dance world's most accomplished and groundbreaking artists. I'm your host, Alicia Graff, Mack Dean and Director of Dance at the Juilliard School. During each episode, you'll hear me talk with some of my closest friends and most trusted colleagues as we sit down to hear about their creative process and how they are changing the dance world on and off the stage. I've known you for some time now. I think I first met you in 2012 when Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater was staging -16 and actually had seen the company rehearse Black Milk some years before that and then fast forward a few years. You have been so gracious with your time working with the students of the Juilliard School. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Before we get into your work philosophies on life and dance, I'd like to understand a little bit more about your motivations to move. What was your childhood like? Were you in motion. As a young person, you know, there.
- [02:58]
B
Wasn'T too much thought process, but there was a big need to move. I don't think I was a hyper kid, I don't think it came from that. But I think I did connect to the pleasure of movement. It had to do a lot, I think, with playing. It had to do with games, has to do with tasks, it has to do with taking chances, things like that.
- [03:26]
A
And would you be outside in your house with friends, with family, in the house too.
- [03:34]
B
Very early, two years old, jumping from the top of a closet to my parents, holding a blanket. But later on, a lot outside, no screens, you know, no gadgets. The gadget was balls or sticks or stones.
- [03:52]
A
That's how my childhood was too. Just creativity and play. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of music in your early life?
- [04:00]
B
In early life, maybe today I can think of it as important then. It was just part of life because my mother was also a musician and my father loved music. So there was the listening to music, there was the playing of music, there was the studying of music, there was the appreciation of music, and there was the making of music. All and also being introduced to different, many different styles of music and good music. My parents had good taste, that was good, important.
- [04:35]
A
Like what? What would they play and what did they expose you to?
- [04:40]
B
A lot of classical music, but not only. And I think I was very early already was drawn to, you know, what today's old is. Think of the music that was playing in America in the 60s or even.
- [04:54]
A
50S, you know, as a creative person, do you feel that that early upbringing had anything to do with even the work that you're doing now or that you have done?
- [05:07]
B
The answer is that I'm not sure. And I'm not sure not because I forgot it. I remember where I'm coming from. But there are many, many people my age that heard similar music, that had similar upbringing, maybe creating today. And we create very differently. So I think there are stronger forces why we do what we do.
- [05:32]
A
Can you explain that a little more?
- [05:34]
B
The stronger forces it can be, how you connect to your sense of loss, to your fantasy, your demons, your madness, your love, you wanting to give, wanting to receive. I'm really turned on by organization, order and chaos all at once. I'm a little bit obsessed with systems. So think these things were in me, I guess, whether I was listening to Prokofiev or not.
- [06:09]
A
Who is Maxim Warat? Am I pronouncing this name correctly? Yes, Maxim.
- [06:16]
B
Yes, Maxime Warat. He's in jail right now, but he likes it. Usually in the winter he's in jail. He's actually doing some minor crime in front of a policeman. So he will be put in jail for the duration of the winter because he's most of the time homeless, unless he's staying with me.
- [06:37]
A
Okay.
- [06:37]
B
You know who he is, right?
- [06:39]
A
I thought that he is you. Is this correct?
- [06:42]
B
Yeah, he is. It's a. It's not a secret that when I write music, I write it under the name of Maxim Warat. But when I talk to him as being someone in jail, it's not just a joke. It's an important relationship that I have to Maxim, that I created in order to create the kind of meditation I want when I do music.
- [07:06]
A
And with that creative process and creating music, do you find similarities with choreographing or making dances?
- [07:15]
B
I think there's a lot of similarities, which has to do with maybe how we connect to the sense of time, how we connect to the need to create atmosphere, how we can connect to volume and texture, structure, the mathematic counts, order of things, to repetition. There are a lot of similarities, the need for skills. But you can listen to music with your eyes closed, you cannot watch dance with your eyes closed. And you can dance. You can also dance without music. So there's a similarities, but there's no dependency.
- [07:56]
A
It also feels like when you create movement. And what I've experienced and understood of you as a dance creator is the collaboration with others in the room also influences what happens. But maybe when you're writing music, it might be a more isolated or singular act.
- [08:16]
B
It's true, and that's the beauty of it, that because I'm so much with dancers, with collaborators in the room, the making of music enabled me to be a lot on my own while making the music, still connecting to the choreography process.
- [08:32]
A
Beautiful. I wonder when you were first learning more formal or codified ways of dancing, whether that started with modern dance or ballet. How did you get your start and what inspired you to start to want to learn dance?
- [08:52]
B
I grew up in a home that was very creative. And also my mother was a dancer and choreographer. My father was an actor for a while. So there was a lot of theater and dance at home. Coming up, my mother exposed me to dance performances. But most, I think, is that I myself love to dance. Always not to train, just to dance. It was more folk dancing or just dancing in parties. It was more about things I wanted to do in sports. My experience of serious dance training started very late. It basically Started in the Batheva Dance Company. As a dancer, I was fortunate to be able to start dancing at the same time I was starting training, basically. So it's not like I had years of training, dreaming to be a dancer. I came to Batheva after my army service. My mother actually called them and said, my boys, you have to see him. And she packed a little bag for me and sent me to Bathsheba in Tel Aviv. We were living in the north, and I came there and they said, oh, okay, it's you go to company class. And I went into the company class, and the class was a Martha Graham class with a teacher called Noemi Lapsenzon, a beautiful Martha Graham dancer. And luckily it wasn't ballet because I was very flexible, so it was easier for me to just imitate. I could easily split my legs, I could easily stretch. So they asked me to come the next day, and then after a few days, they said, okay, we want you to be an apprentice in the company.
- [10:35]
A
Wow.
- [10:36]
B
And for me, it was really, you know, at that time, I had nothing else I wanted to do particularly, and I said, okay.
- [10:45]
A
And when you looked around, were you like, what is this world? Or were you like, oh, okay, I understand.
- [10:51]
B
I remember I was like amazed on people just being able to stand and balance on one leg at that moment.
- [10:58]
A
It's just amazing your trajectory and how quickly you soaked in all of the information. And I know that Martha Graham asked you to then come to the United States and was that to dance with their company?
- [11:13]
B
Yeah. Martha came to choreograph a piece during the first year I was with Bacheva, and she invited me to New York to dance with her company. And so I did. I was very ignorant, both in terms of my training and also my knowledge. But I was curious and I came to New York and joined the Martha Graham Company.
- [11:34]
A
What was she like? What was she like to work with?
- [11:38]
B
She was in her 80s already with a very, very serious arteries, you know, and still she was bigger than life. You know, she gave us a lot of room to make up dance, but it was very much in the codes of the grand technique. You had to do contraction, cave turn, flex your muscles, walk against the wall, which wasn't me. Naturally. I was much more keen to loose and soft. But I think she liked it. And you know why she liked it? She liked me because I reminded her of another dancer, Bob Powell, his name. He was a really beautiful, but he was very cat like sometimes. She also was attracted to that and I reminded her of him. So she loved it.
- [12:31]
A
Beautiful and then just a few years later, maybe the next year, you ended up at the Juilliard School and School of American Ballet at the same time. How did that happen? I've never heard of that before.
- [12:43]
B
I wanted to. To learn. I went to School of American Ballet for an audition. I was already 23, 24 even. And I was really naturally, very, very flexible. And I had very good feet, naturally, and very kind of hyperextended. So I think people were turned on by the fact that this guy who didn't really dance can actually do things. And because I had some gymnastic and I had sense of form, and I was already dancing by then for a year and a half. So I was accepted to the School of American Ballet. And at the same time, I wanted a break from the Gram Company, from dancing in a company. So I enrolled to the professional study plan on Juilliard. I don't know if they still have it.
- [13:30]
A
What was that year like? It must have been so much information. And if you could describe just the ethos or the culture at Juilliard, I'd be so interested to hear your experience.
- [13:41]
B
I think, and maybe it's good, is that I don't remember having ambition to be a ballet dancer or a choreographer. I wanted to learn, to study, and I think most of all, I wanted to enjoy the moment. That's what I was really seeking. I wanted to enjoy. And that's also what guided me, especially in my decision not to stay somewhere where it doesn't give me that joy.
- [14:04]
A
Yeah. Martha Hill was the director at that time, right?
- [14:07]
B
Martha Heale. And I loved her. I loved Marta. She was so kind and so clever. And the School of American was like, you know, I go into class, I didn't know who was Peter Schaffers. I didn't know who was Peter Martin. And I was in the main class with those dancers, imitating them a little bit, trying to do with teachers like Richard Rapp and Stanley Williams. I learned a lot, I think also I learned a lot about what I don't want to do. I didn't care that pirouette needs to start from straight leg in the back or bent leg in the back. I didn't care if my fingers are so. I was also restless with all of this, but it was an important year. But I was also injured. It was complicated. It wasn't the best year of my life this year in Jury Adams, but it was a learning, very learning experience.
- [14:57]
A
Many times in this podcast, I've asked the artists, what does the high feel like when you're in motion. What are you seeking when you are ready to be in performance or you're in rehearsal?
- [15:11]
B
Well, today I can articulate it in many different ways then. It was a lot about the connection of skill, passion and the power of imagination in a natural way. I needed those three to motivate why.
- [15:27]
A
I dance, simply put, and also very poignant. So when did you find yourself starting to create, starting to make dances? Had that always been there?
- [15:38]
B
I don't see too big difference when I think of the need to create between the need to write a poem, draw a drawing, build something in the sand on the beach, making up some on my guitar and making dance. It's all coming from a similar need, similar place of wanting to discover something. I express myself, communicate. It was always there. I remember dreaming about choreography many years before I started to choreograph. But actually when I think of it, my very first choreography, I think what motivated the most is that I wanted to dance. I was in New York, I was injured, I wasn't in a particular organization or dance company. And I had this idea and I had this desire to dance. It kind of came together.
- [16:30]
A
Did you find friends and kind of cobble a group together? How did that start?
- [16:34]
B
In the early days, it started with a duet, then a solo, then another solo, then another duet, then another. I remember the first time that I did something that was longer than 10 minutes. I was choreographing for three or four years at least.
- [16:51]
A
Where were your works presented?
- [16:53]
B
The very first time that I presented my work was actually in the studio of Kazuko Hirabayashi. She was a teacher at Juilliard and also danced for her company. And she was very kind and supportive and she just gave me her studio both to rehearse and perform.
- [17:09]
A
Amazing.
- [17:10]
B
Downtown on Broome Street.
- [17:12]
A
So why did you go back to Israel and what led you to do that?
- [17:18]
B
Started to choreograph in 1980 and Bacheva invited me just to choreograph few times during the next 10 years I visited Batheva Danskom and choreographed several works there. And then in 1990 they asked me to become the artistic director and I was very happy.
- [17:38]
A
What about that invitation excited you?
- [17:42]
B
I think it's a mix because I was very happy to go back to Israel and having the kind of support full time dancers, studios, production. And I was already familiar with working with companies that had that. I worked with NDT already in the 80s, with Kulberg. I worked with different companies that show me what can you do when you have this situation. So here I was, offering this situation.
- [18:13]
A
And if you could reveal a bit about what your vision for the company may have been or what the new Batshava might be under your direction.
- [18:22]
B
Basically, like now, I try to discover, research and share what I discover. At this moment, I was bringing what I've discovered. But also as a choreographer, you discover it together with the people you work with. And the beauty of dance is that it's so ephemeral. Even though Bathsheba had a tradition, they worked with Marta Graham, when I came, the company was not in a very good state. Production values, repertory, it was all very mediocre, but it didn't matter because it's clean slate, you know, for better or worse, you know, And I had beautiful group of dancers and I had the time and the studios, and I started creating your company.
- [19:06]
A
Bathsheba Company is known for extraordinary artists, dancers who can do anything. They seem like dance creatures more than humans. What are the qualities that you've looked for in dancers who have worked with you and who've joined the company?
- [19:24]
B
There is a uniqueness that come, I think, from kind of laboratory that we go through. The idea that you don't go to sleep without feeling that you went beyond your familiar limits. Today in knowing this, you need to admit that you're far from being perfect. You don't need to be perfect. That there is that it's actually endless. We don't look for perfection. I think that dancers that I'm attracted to are dancers that also have the passion to create the dancers that willing to give up old ideas for better new ones. Dancers that love to dance without mirrors because we don't have mirrors in the studio and understand that it's wrong to dance with mirrors. I think even if you just take that as dancers that dance without mirrors versus dancers that dance with mirrors, you see the advantage and the benefit of those dancers who don't see themselves in the mirror, but develop this instinct and knowledge of what they look like and what it sounds like to create a clear form, but without watching your own image or looking at the world through your image. You know, would you say that a lot of the people that you listen to your podcast are dancers? Yes, Please get rid of the mirrors. They're spoiling your soul. They're bad for you. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.
- [20:48]
A
There is something interesting or strange about the idea that you're in your work, you're in your profession, and you're watching yourself in your work all day. That has to change the Psyche about how you're working.
- [21:03]
B
Yeah, that's another aspect that you see yourself before you see the world. I feel sorry that you need to see yourself all day. But then when you move, if you move without sensing and connecting to multidimensional multidirection, and that you only can do a certain movement and put yourself in the right place just because you see it, it's actually handicapping. It's a handicap, it's not an advantage. I don't know how it started. Even looking at yourself and dancing, it seems so bizarre. You want dancers to enjoy dancing, but you want this joy and pleasure not to connect to what they see. It's not that you want to enjoy seeing yourself, you want to enjoy the sense, you know, the scope of sensations while you're moving.
- [21:54]
A
Can you talk about the dance language of Gaga that you developed? Where did that come from? And how have you seen that development shift and grow and expand over the years?
- [22:06]
B
I needed a way to communicate to dancers and I needed a way to take care of my own body and I needed to look for quality of dance. You can see two dancers doing the same movement and one will bore you and one will make you cry. So I wonder what is it? What is the difference? And also I believe that most of us, we possess very similar treasures, but many of us didn't get the keys to open up those treasures. So those two people that one bore you and one make you cry might possess very similar treasures, but one of them is locked. So Gaga is a lot about finding the keys, first of all, to open up your own treasures before I give you my own treasure.
- [22:52]
A
Now Gaga is taught all over the world through the Gaga Foundation. So many teachers have been trained to teach this technique. What does it feel like to have your ideas, your technique, so proliferated around the world and how do you have the ability to let it go? I know that teachers are trained, but there's no way that you can see all the teachers and all of the students all over the world. How can you do that?
- [23:22]
B
It is about letting go also. But also it's about finding a way to keep all the teachers we have, I don't know, 150 teachers updated and the pandemic actually brought us the zoom. And the zoom helped me to communicate regularly with the teachers. We have what we call Methodica, where I meet and I share with the teachers, I'm updating them with where I am, with the research. We also have in the organization. We have people who are full time job is to update and Inform and work with the teachers. Because I don't think of Gaga as a method. I think of it as a language, movement language. Once you understand the essence of it, I allow people to speak differently, is different from other things because it's not a style. The style is how you represent something. But for me, I'm interested in the something which I think of it as the essence. Of course, the representation is very important, but when you don't have an essence to what you represent, then it's just mannerism. So Gaga is a lot about how you connect to the force of gravity, how you connect to the sense of touch and the flow of energy, how you connect to texture, how you connect to letting go and speed, how you connect to clear form and your animal instinct, how you connect to your range to groove, how you can let your anger become clear form. It's just things that constantly affect the quality of our movement.
- [25:03]
A
We had a workshop at Juilliard with our students, and I got to take the class. It's interesting because it's a very intimate experience, but a communal experience at the same time. And you can be vulnerable to let things go in an organized way. A staff member came up to me and said, we need to do an entire Juilliard School and drama students and faculty and staff.
- [25:30]
B
Let's do it. Yeah, I'll come. I'll come. Let's all meet on the big stage.
- [25:36]
A
Let's do it. Yes. You are now the house choreographer at B'Teva, and you've let go of some of the administrative work. What is your life like these days?
- [25:50]
B
It was a big change four years ago. It was huge change and a must change. I was burning out with the burden of being also a director, with Gaga, with choreography, and also with my private life altogether. I think it's not about too much. I don't mind working sometime 18, even more hours a day. It's about doing things I didn't like that were under the hat of a director. And I don't think I'm a natural born director. I did it because I had to do it, to create room for me as a choreographer, to be at my best. I'm still working a lot in Batcheva because we have a big repertory. I teach and I create and we tour. The balance change a little bit, but not the hours. Still, happily.
- [26:42]
A
I remember you saying to the dancers that your way as a person, at the front of the room or in the middle of the room, wherever your position is about who you are in relationship to the dancers, has changed as you've had more experiences. I don't know if changed is the right word, but expanded or developed over.
- [27:00]
B
Time compared to what it was 20 years ago and what it is today. I can see how much maybe conflicting I was and how much less and almost zero conflicts now. I think it came from the appreciation and passion and acknowledging that I work with an amazing group of people that can better our life if I'm not conflicting, if I give them the room to play, if I give them the safety net to fall, to make mistakes. And I think because we are all so much into the research and the research has developed so there is this communication without the need to talk which exists, trust, love to why and how we want to dance, why we are there for so many hours together.
- [27:57]
A
Ohad Our audience is probably almost completely made up of dancers, dance lovers, people who keep movement in their life and are listening because you are someone who has influenced the way that we think about dance, how we watch dance, and we are always excited to see your work and what comes out of Bathsheba. Has there been some intentionality or idea of the legacy or the stone that you'd like to leave with us?
- [28:29]
B
I think because for me it's so important to share what I discover. I feel that this is what it is about. People don't need to remember me, but I'd like them to continue to use what I share with them.
- [28:43]
A
Wow. I was at the Joyce when the company was performing and just the hour, actually it was ORA that I saw, but just the hour. It changes you. The experience with the dancers, just being in the space with other people in the audience. It's an experience that it shifts your life as you go forward. It's so important and I think it does connect us to why we want these moving moments in our lives. Thank you so much.
- [29:13]
B
Thank you, Alicia.
- [29:15]
A
I hope you enjoyed this episode of Moving Moments. If you like what you heard, please tell your friends about it. Spread the word. Be sure to follow the show, rate us, and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. To keep up with future epis, follow us on Instagram at Moving Moments podcast and Visit us@artfulnarrativesmedia.com.