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- [00:03]
Alicia Graff
Artistic director of Pacific Northwest Ballet, Peter Bol was a principal dancer with New York City ballet for over two decades. He is revered for expanding PNB's repertoire, broadening audience involvement, and widening the company's approach to inclusivity. Peter's childhood experiences, sitting in the audience and witnessing the magic of the theater instilled in him a love and deep respect for the art form.
- [00:29]
Peter Bol
I grew up sitting there in the second ring, not taking it for granted, but realizing there was a magnitude, even if you didn't understand it, the response from an audience, you figured you needed to wake up and figure out what was so phenomenal.
- [00:44]
Alicia Graff
You're listening to Moving Moments, the podcast that explores the dance world's most accomplished and groundbreaking artists. I'm your host, Alicia Graff, Mack Dean and Director of Dance at the Juilliard School. During each episode, you'll hear me talk with some of my closest friends and most trusted colleagues as we sit down down to hear about their creative process and how they were changing the dance world on and off the stage. I actually received a message from one of our Juilliard Dance faculty members, Jeff Edwards, that you've written a new memoir, and I was so interested to learn more about you through this book. And although your memoir does not necessarily concentrate on your life as a dancer, your passion for dance is so beautifully woven throughout the chapters. What inspired you to write your memoir and to title it Illusions of Camelot?
- [01:42]
Peter Bol
Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. And those are lucky people that know Jeff Edwards. He's very special and has been a constant in my life, and so I'm glad he was able to connect us. Yes, there were stories from my past that were so, you know, we have those pivotal moments in our lives, and I think we deal with them immediately as best we can so that we can move on and tackle tomorrow or get through tomorrow. And then I suppose in my life, there's a point when you look back and it was 40, 50 years ago, and you think, you know, I'm still processing this. It was big enough moment that it was really lasting. And I also thought, I know other people have been through some of the similar circumstances that I've been through, some of the pain of loss, some of the dealing with addiction, some of the discovering the joys of dance as sort of a salvation in your life. You know, I love when people share their stories because we can often see ourselves reflected back in those stories. The title actually came from Chapter 2, the original title for that chapter, and it sort of referred to my mother, who was sitting in an MG convertible riding through a town parade, and my father was running for a local office, and she was teaching us how to wave to the crowds as we went through the parade. And I know she was thinking of Jackie Kennedy. And it was sort of the time when so many people wanted to emulate Jackie Kennedy or the Kennedy family. And, of course, Camelot was an image associated with the Kennedys. And I thought my mom had this sort of dream of becoming this family that was maybe not our family, but that was perhaps a perfect family, which, of course, there's no such thing as that. And it felt right for the title, for the book.
- [03:23]
Alicia Graff
And just how this idea of dance is so beautifully woven. I'm looking at you. We are having this interview remotely, but I'm assuming you're in your office at Pacific Northwest Ballet, where you are the artistic director, because I can hear the music in the background.
- [03:39]
Peter Bol
Yeah.
- [03:39]
Alicia Graff
They must be taking class, your dancers, or in rehearsal, how that that music also is. You know, dance music is woven also throughout your life.
- [03:48]
Peter Bol
Yeah.
- [03:49]
Alicia Graff
Peter, thinking about your upbringing, when was the first time you found yourself in motion? And what about being a mover spoke to you?
- [03:58]
Peter Bol
Boy, what a good question. My memory of me is stronger through my mother and others than it is myself. But I was a motion child. I wouldn't sit still. And, you know, everybody. I think everybody talks about that child. One of the characters in the book is Mrs. Hattie, who is very important to me, almost like the primary parent in my life, even though she was the caregiver. But she, to her last day, kept a pair of little red leather shoes that I wore. And she said they would just fly and try to kick her every time she was changing me. But as I grew up, there were albums that I bought, and I would play them in the living room alone. Things like Fleetwood Mac were favorite albums. And I would just dance alone in the living room long before I started ballet. But dance was this expression, and it was this sort of joyous moment that was very personal. I think if someone walked around the corner, I wouldn't have danced for them. But it was private, and it was beautiful, and it was inside of me, and it needed to come out.
- [04:55]
Alicia Graff
Through dance, was your family aware of these moments that you would be by yourself in motion? Were they aware of this passion?
- [05:05]
Peter Bol
I think families saw it differently, as they often do. They just saw a fidgety and a restless child that maybe needed more activities. Maybe we should do more track and field or more gymnastics. So I think our Family was just sort of trying to saddle that relentless energy that I had.
- [05:22]
Alicia Graff
In your book, you describe how your family had seasoned tickets to see New York City Ballet and you frequented the theater. Can you describe how these visits changed the course of your life?
- [05:35]
Peter Bol
I think it wasn't my parents original plan. I think they just wanted to expose their children, my sister and I, to some of the things that they appreciated. They took us to certain museums that they really admired. I remember being taken to a poetry reading, which was torture for me at that age. But I apologize to the poets now because I have great respect for their work. But I didn't at the time. Ballet was no walk in the park either. I really felt it was boring at first, but how lucky to be brought to the Thursday night subscription series, which my parents knew was the night that world premieres happened. So there were first debuts from Balanchine and from Robbins on those evenings. And I grew up sitting there in the second ring, not taking it for granted, but realizing there was a magnitude. And even if you didn't understand it, the response from an audience in the 1970s to a world premiere by George Balanchine or Jerome Robbins was, you figured you needed to wake up and figure out what was so phenomenal about this moment. But it was an amazing apprenticeship to the world of New York City Ballet in particular, and dance in general.
- [06:41]
Alicia Graff
Why did your family take you to audition for School of American Ballet from the very beginning? How was that choice inspired?
- [06:50]
Peter Bol
Yeah, it's a funny, very sort of practical story, but I was watching a performance of Coppelia, and there's a villagers dance, a mazurka, where they're stomping in costumes and sets, and it just has an energy. And I just tugged on my mom's arm and said, I want to take ballet. And then at intermission, we talked about it. And I think my mom was excited in one sense, because she did love the ballet. Her parents had loved the ballet. I think she was nervous about a young male wanting to study ballet and how that might go. We went home. She called various ballet schools. They all said, we only have classes for girls and there's nothing for boys. So my mom called the New York City Ballet, who does that, and said, my boy wants to dance. Any suggestions? And they said, well, try the School of American Ballet. They certainly have classes for boys. So we did, and on and on to the audition. And then the new chapter started.
- [07:43]
Alicia Graff
Wow. Just living in that world and soaking.
- [07:46]
Peter Bol
It all in and exactly in the studios that you occupy every day now at Juilliard.
- [07:52]
Alicia Graff
This is another window into a world. Because there are so many times throughout your book that you describe the third floor of the Juilliard School where School of American Ballet had their class passes.
- [08:04]
Peter Bol
Yeah. It's nice, though. When I was there, I remember stepping into the locker room and just. It's the same locks. It's the same dial locks, and the same. Could find my locker easily. And remembering the benches and. It's nice. It's nice.
- [08:15]
Alicia Graff
It's such a rich history that's lived throughout these walls.
- [08:20]
Peter Bol
Yeah.
- [08:21]
Alicia Graff
What was your early training like? And what was it like to go back and forth and sort of have a double life, if you will, between your life in Bedford and then what you were experiencing in New York City?
- [08:35]
Peter Bol
Yeah, it really was a double life. I haven't thought of it that way, but it's almost like, you know, you had a whole second existence, like you were secretly a spy or something. Because I think my mother had made the decision that we wouldn't be telling my peers in fourth grade that I was studying ballet. I didn't know that ballet was something that maybe I should be ashamed of or maybe not everyone would react positively towards. There's a chapter about the school principal reprimanding my mom and saying, wait, you're. Are you putting the shame on this? Like, what is wrong with this? Maybe this is just something to be very proud of and a mode of personal expression for your son. It. It felt like a double life because I didn't talk about it at school. I wasn't ashamed of it. You know, it all crashes when you're in the Nutcracker, because all your peers come and they see you in the Nutcracker and they say, wait, how did you get in the Nutcracker?
- [09:22]
Alicia Graff
The way that the book is constructed reads like a collection of short stories in a way, more so than a straightforward chronological memoir. One of the threads that does move throughout the book is about your relationship with your father. And even if your father wasn't in some of those chapters, other male figures or role models were centered in the chapters. Why was including your father an important aspect to your story?
- [09:56]
Peter Bol
I feel like there was this deep love for my father, and it feels funny to say it's been growing stronger, but it's been rising. And I think during my time with my father, the resentment was eclipsing the love. I was sometimes angry that addiction to alcohol was standing in the way of the relationship that we could be having. Other dads were just showing up. They weren't late they weren't stumbling, they weren't embarrassing. And this was so much resentment that it took me time to sift through and realize how strong the love and support was. And as I thought about these stories, I thought, there it is. He's trapped with this iron claw of addiction preventing him from doing what he really wants to do. But there's these little glints, peaks of that love and that support for his son that came through. There we are in a. In a cave, on a hiking trip, in a hailstorm, and my dad has to pull out small bottles of alcohol just to get through this happy moment with his son. But that was okay because we had that happy moment. And that was the thing that has surfaced over time.
- [10:58]
Alicia Graff
Oh, the deep love definitely rings true throughout the book. I felt that very intensely, actually, as I was reading. There's another chapter called Coach that centers around your time with Jerome Robbins. I'm so interested to hear more about Robbins as I'm in this place at Juilliard and surrounded by many who have been touched by him and his life. And so many people mention his coaching, his way of being able to help someone to grow into a role, to better interpret, to be more musical. Could you share about when you first met him and worked with him and how your relationship developed?
- [11:39]
Peter Bol
Yeah, the first meeting would have been around the ballet Mother Goose when I was 10 years old. And, you know, I started at School of American Ballet when I was nine and three quarters. So it's really. It must have been my first year. Maybe in the spring. I barely had a tendu. I really didn't have much experience in this.
- [11:56]
Alicia Graff
Wow.
- [11:57]
Peter Bol
But, you know, somebody chose me to be Cupid with the big pink wings on my back, and there I was. And the funny thing about that was Robbins loved me in this role. When I was 13, I was still doing it, and it was for a 10 year old. But I couldn't get out of Cupid.
- [12:10]
Alicia Graff
Oh, no.
- [12:11]
Peter Bol
And I was ready to get out of Cupid, but it worked me out. I would say there's a lot about Robbins. He was not an easy person in the studio. He was wonderfully nurturing for a smaller group, and I was part of that group. My moments were kind of precious, the ones that I held with him. But there were other dancers that were working with him more. He was a phenomenal demonstrator, even in an age where his legs weren't working as a dancer anymore. But the intention, the focus, the eyes mostly, the timing, the length of the pause movements, which made the next movement so crisp and startling. And you didn't realize that you needed the absence of movement in order to amplify the movement. First time we worked on Prodigal Son, it was extraordinary for him to want to work on a Balanchine ballet. He only worked on Robin's ballets, and he saw this sort of hole in the company with Balanchine gone where there wasn't somebody to coach a new Prodigal Son. And he had been coached by Balanchine on the Prodigal Son and had also prized those acting moments and known that it took a great deal of investment in order to realize them. I love that he sent everybody out of the room, even the rehearsal director. And it was just he and I working and that sort of equity that happens between a legend in their late 60s and a very novice dancer at 19 or 20. And yet we were both approaching this role with insights and discovering it outside.
- [13:33]
Alicia Graff
Of the rehearsal room. Did you have a relationship with him or that was really the place where you all lived?
- [13:41]
Peter Bol
Yeah, Alicia, I have no relationships outside of the studio, except for a very loving wife and family and a couple of dear friends. But I never. I never. Robbins, Stanley Williams. I just don't. And I don't know if they might muddy the beauty of the work relationship. Stanley Williams. I obviously spent an hour and a half in his studio every day for decades. And we never had lunch, we never had coffee. The number of words we shared outside of that studio could be put on two pages. But I don't think I needed it and. Or wanted it. And what we had was just right.
- [14:21]
Alicia Graff
It's such a sacred space, the dance studio.
- [14:24]
Peter Bol
It is.
- [14:25]
Alicia Graff
It's really a place of spirituality for so many dancers, but a place where you can create your own worlds with people.
- [14:33]
Peter Bol
And there's so much silent communication.
- [14:36]
Alicia Graff
Although you worked with Balanchine, some as a student, and then moved on to the company, and he then passed this idea that you get to know someone even more through the work that they left us.
- [14:50]
Peter Bol
Yeah.
- [14:51]
Alicia Graff
What was that like to live in George Balanchine's legacy, to perform his works? And what did you learn?
- [14:57]
Peter Bol
I think it was about a year after I joined the company. I must have been 18, and Helgi Thomason was going to retire and moved to San Francisco to become artistic director. And Helgi had only done Helgi's roles for years, so they thought, we've got to have Helgi teach these roles because he's getting on a plane soon. And they just threw me in there like this. 18 year old, like, let's just get him in the room. Maybe one day it'll happen. So I went in the room with Helgi, and I think it was three other casts. And as Helgi taught each step, I remember thinking, this makes so much sense. I know exactly why Balanchine put the jete there. I know why the chasse was there. I can see why the back rolled in that place. And I think the musicality, you realize that the way Balanchine heard music can reveal itself as you learn movement to that music. I think that's why the ballets are still done in so many schools, in so many countries, because there's this education about music and movement that is unmatched as a performer.
- [15:56]
Alicia Graff
With all this incredible work to do. Can you describe one of your most memorable moving moments?
- [16:03]
Peter Bol
One of my favorite moments on stage is a non moving moment in the core of Orpheus. When I first joined, there were rocks and there were two types of rocks. The better veteran dancers got to be dancing rocks, and the newer people were standing rocks. Okay, I was a standing rock. So I really just stood there holding this big gray mass. But later we would lie on our backs and we would lie on this huge white scrim. And the Noguchi orbs were above us, just floating. We really had to lie there to hold the scrim in place so it didn't blow back. But it was one of the most peaceful, lovely. All planets aligning. The universe comes together. I can remember the people that were lying to my right and lying to my left and the Stravinsky music. And somewhere there was a pas de deux happening for the audience, but just this nirvana of no movement.
- [16:52]
Alicia Graff
That sounds like heaven.
- [16:54]
Peter Bol
Yeah. And I love the movement, but that's the first thing that came to mind. I like the immersion into movement roles like the obvious ones, like the Prodigal Son and Apollo. And also something like Melissa Fenley's State of Darkness, where you go on stage for 30 minutes and you don't leave stage. There's no, I have to get to the water fountain. I have to talk to my partner. I need a tissue. Like, you just immerse and you just remain in that temple moving, and you hit this stride and even this suspension of consciousness that's really special and doesn't happen all the time. So I liked those roles where I didn't leave the stage and I just dove in headfirst and the movement became something that was just the extension of who you were.
- [17:39]
Alicia Graff
It's that physicality and the spirituality that you Might not even be thinking about, but at some point your spirit takes over, and then it's just music and spirit in motion somehow.
- [17:50]
Peter Bol
Yeah, well said.
- [17:51]
Alicia Graff
What were the challenges that you experienced when you were appointed as the director of Pacific Northwest Ballet? And what did you envision for the future of the company at that time?
- [18:02]
Peter Bol
You know, I didn't know anything. I mean, to be honest, I was just pretending that I knew what I was doing.
- [18:08]
Alicia Graff
Fake it till you make it. That is my favorite quote.
- [18:11]
Peter Bol
I haven't admitted that until now, but I guess it's true. I'd run a company that had at most four dancers, and I was one of the four. And we were a pickup group that lucky enough to get to the Joists or to Princeton, New Jersey and various touring spots. But this was big and it had a really well oiled machine and a comprehensive staff. I think that bravery to stay with your convictions and trust your instincts and you might meet with a tremendous amount of resistance for change. But if you believe wholeheartedly in it, step forward boldly and do it. Don't waffle, don't buckle. And if you believe in it, others will, too. And some of the things that I got behind boldly didn't work like I failed, but that's going to happen, too. I thought there were opportunities for new repertory, for sure, that were an extension of what my predecessors had already been doing. But there were choreographers that I had worked with. We did Ulysses Dove's Red Angels on the opening night, just to say, we're here. It was already a ballet that was 10 years old, but it felt very fresh and new and different. And the audience was absolutely wowed and hungry for more. And we were able to open these doors in many areas.
- [19:19]
Alicia Graff
Maybe I should back up, because I feel like I didn't discuss the transition from being a performer then to taking on more administrative roles or becoming an artistic director. How did that transition happen? Or when did you know? Okay, I think it's time for me to leave New York City Ballet and try something else.
- [19:41]
Peter Bol
If we go back a few years. I had a conversation with Peter Martens, who is my director at New York City Ballet, and he said that he had had a conversation that morning, he and Darcy Kistler, and they had said, who are. Who's going to be the next generation of artistic directors? And they were talking about people, and he said, have you thought about it? And I said, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to get an art history degree and I'm going to work in a museum, which I don't know why I was thinking that was going to happen, but he said, maybe you should think about it. And so that was a pivotal moment for me. And that's really why I started a small company called Peter Bolland Company just to sort of test those waters and to see how appealing that was. And it was appealing. And then I applied for this directorship. I was the artistic director designate for seven months before I started, and that was a very good period to learn the process. I was allowed to program my first season that I directed, which is often not the case for incoming artistic directors. But I really retired on Sunday and I was on the plane on Monday.
- [20:41]
Alicia Graff
Wow.
- [20:42]
Peter Bol
I think that was fine. I'm a hard worker and I got it, and I dug in and got the family here and so on. But it was a shame not to be able to mark the retirement of one meaningful part of my life in a way to grieve the fact that you are not dancing anymore because you don't get it back. I have other things that I love that are rewarding, but I. I don't get that back. And I had a run that was amazing, so I can't complain, but it's still sad when it goes away.
- [21:10]
Alicia Graff
Yeah. But I was going to ask you if it was hard to transition so quickly from being a performer to not spending your every morning in class and with other dancers and performing.
- [21:21]
Peter Bol
Yeah, I teach four or five times a week, and so I'm in the studio every morning. It's not the same, but I do love moving to music, even if it's just as a demonstration.
- [21:31]
Alicia Graff
Beautiful. Yeah. I've been a fan of your company for years and years. In fact, when I was very young, I thought, maybe I'll end up at pmb because there seemed like there were a lot of really tall, like, Amazon kind of women that I wanted to emulate. And the company really does continue to take a progressive stance on bringing ballet and concert dance into the 21st century by making innovations that many companies have not yet been able to accomplish. I know that PMB was one of the first Balanchine family companies to allow black dancers to wear their skin color tights and shoes. And in this season of this podcast, we have already heard from Ashton Edwards, who credits your vision of gender inclusivity for much of their success. Where does this type of vision and leadership come from?
- [22:26]
Peter Bol
You know, there can be two approaches. One is sort of a lofty ideal, which I think you have to have. The other is just in the specific incidents. Much of the evolution of this company is because of Ashton Edwards. And Ashton is a dancer that we lost our hearts too quickly, not only for being phenomenally talented, but also just the personality, the exuberance, the joy of dance. And then considering Ashton as a non binary individual, Where's Ashton going to change clothes? What options are there for very practical things? What is somebody going to put on their legs for that Balanchine ballet? And so I think some of our evolution has just been in collective voice. People being willing to come forward and say, this doesn't feel right. And people don't come forward with just an accusation or an issue. They come forward with an issue and a solution. And that is the way to go, because I don't necessarily have the answers.
- [23:23]
Alicia Graff
As you're auditioning dancers for your company, what are you looking for, if anything?
- [23:29]
Peter Bol
Now we're just really individual. I think there's a type that relishes movement and musicality and attacks space, and those are the common denominators. And I think we also have a type that has a classical ballet bass, but a hunger for more contemporary exploration. I think we've stopped trying to pigeonhole people and just let them show us who they are.
- [23:49]
Alicia Graff
Right. And in turn, when you're curating performances, what are the elements that you're looking to fulfill? I know Arthur Mitchell. He used to say a good performance is like a great meal. You start with your first course and then you have your meaty entree and you let them go with a delicious dessert. What are you looking for when you're curating performances?
- [24:09]
Peter Bol
It's funny you say that, because I feel like I heard that quote from Balanchine, so it might be borrowed from.
- [24:16]
Alicia Graff
Passed down. Yes.
- [24:17]
Peter Bol
And the best meals are when you love all three. Of course, if I look broadly at a season, there are certain, like war horses that I know are going to make a lot of money and really allow us to do some of the more experimental mixed repertory programming. So I really look at that balance. You look at this field of choreographers and stories, and it is pretty homogenous and limited. There's a. There's a Eurocentric and certainly an imbalance of white and male choreographers everywhere in our world. But certainly in choreography, there's opportunities to be given and there's a platform that I can offer to people. I do this post performance question and answer session after every show, except for Nutcracker shows, and a dancer accompanies me. And it's such a good way for audience members to raise their hand and say, the second piece. Why did you program it? I'm not sure I got it and like, but we have all this dialogue and other people in the audience say, well, I love the second piece. I thought it was the best thing I've ever seen. So those dialogues are as healthy as the actual performance. And yeah, people are a little unscripted about their taste and willing to be led somewhere. And I think you shouldn't just cater to what an audience thinks they want, but continue bringing a new entree forward or a new dessert and may hit home.
- [25:28]
Alicia Graff
My last question is more about your personal life, your family life. I know you've been married to your wife, Kelly Cass for over 30 years and you have three incredible children. Do you have any advice for me as a parent of two young children while directing a very highly recognized dance institution? Any advice you could give me?
- [25:51]
Peter Bol
I am sure I'll bet you have it down. I think what was frustrating for me when my son was born and I was doing a guesting project at the Kennedy center with Suzanne Farrell and it was opening in a week and I took three days off, which was the saddest thing I think I've ever said. And that phone was just ringing from Suzanne wondering where I was. And I just didn't answer for three days. I was like, I need at least three days. But I felt like I didn't have all the time that I wish I'd had with my kids growing up. There wasn't a moment that didn't count. I remember coming home exhausted at the doormat and because I just whatever, finished the matinee and had all three ballets and just standing there at the doormat and saying, they don't deserve to hear how tired you are because of what you did today. They deserve 100% of you. So take a deep breath and be there. Be present. This moment is not about you. This is about you and them together. So that took a discipline, but I've never regretted it. So, yeah, still close with all three. I love them dearly.
- [26:54]
Alicia Graff
Beautiful. Well, to wrap up, I'm curious to know what is your hope for your memoir and where will we be able to find this book so that everyone can pick up a copy?
- [27:05]
Peter Bol
Yeah, it's been nice to know here in Seattle. I've touched base with a number of different bookstores and they're all carrying it. Our theater has it in its gift shop and most places that books are sold, you should be able to find it or at least order it.
- [27:18]
Alicia Graff
Oh, wonderful. To all the listeners out there. Head on over to Barnes and Nobles. You'll be sure to find it there, and I'm sure you will enjoy it just as much as I did.
- [27:29]
Peter Bol
Thank you so much, Alicia. This is a pleasure.
- [27:31]
Alicia Graff
Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Moving Moments. If you like what you heard, please tell your friends about it. Spread the word. Be sure to follow the show, rate us, and leave a review wherever you get your podcast. To keep up with future episodes, follow us on Instagram at Moving Moments Podcast and Visit us at artfullnarrativesmedia.com Tune in next week as we hear another inspiring artist's Moving Moments.