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- [00:00]
Dan Schall
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
Welcome Back to the Ms. Living well podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jamie Holloman, a neurologist at the Ms. Center for Innovations in Care at Missouri Baptist Medical center in St. Louis. Today's episode, Caregiving in Ms. This episode is sponsored by TG Therapeutics. Today we're turning our focus to an essential, yet often invisible pillar of the multiple sclerosis journey, caregiving. When Ms. Enters a family, it doesn't just impact the individual diagnosed, it reshapes the daily lives and futures of their loved ones as well. Whether it's an adult partner stepping into a new role for their loved one or a child learning to support their parent, the physical and emotional adaptations are profound. Later in the show, we'll hear from Dan Schall, whose wife Kim lives with Ms. He'll discuss what caregiving looks like in his everyday life and how he and Kim have learned to adapt while staying connected as husband and wife. But first, we'll talk to Dr. Kenneth Packingham, emeritus professor of Clinical and Health Psychology at the University of Queensland, Australia. Dr. Pakenham has dedicated a significant portion of his career to studying the impact of Ms. On both young and adult care partners. Rather than focusing solely on the clinical burdens of caregiving, his work highlights the positive aspects of the role and provides a proactive approach to mental health. He joins us today to discuss the unique role of the Ms. Caregiver, the psychological benefits of finding meaning through adversity, and how his Ready for Ms. Intervention helps families cultivate psychological flexibility and resilience. Dr. Pakenham, thanks so much for joining us.
- [01:45]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
Yeah, thank you for the invitation. Happy to contribute.
- [01:50]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
A lot of your research on multiple sclerosis and caregivers uses the term invisible patient. Could you tell our audience what that means?
- [01:57]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
I've used that term primarily in relation to young carers. So these are carers that are between the age of about 12, 13 through to 25. And the care that they provide is often not widely recognized. And in that sense it's hidden because it merges into just the family operation. Children pick up extra tasks, they do extra chores, they provide the emotional support and all sorts of other extra caregiving assistance, which has been part of my research focus. And then the other part of it is adult carers, which are much more widely recognised. So these are adults, often partners of a person with Ms. It could be still a parent, could be a sibling, could be a friend or a neighbour, but more often a partner.
- [02:59]
Dr. Barry Singer
In reading your research on young carers, I found it fascinating. My mom had multiple sclerosis growing up. So it was fascinating to see that sort of a perspective and having lived the situation, would you mind explaining maybe what the research shows in terms of how young carers develop or what impact it has on them?
- [03:17]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
Yeah. So we asked young carers about their experience of having a seriously ill adult family member, and as well as the burdens and difficulties or challenges of providing care, there were also positive aspects. And they included things like feeling that they had higher levels of maturity than their peers because of the caregiving challenges and responsibilities that they had to take on. They also talked about the sense of self confidence around having acquired skills and information and knowledge that they wouldn't have otherwise acquired. There was also the sense of added closeness to the ill family member. And it was also this sense of self fulfillment and the meaningfulness of being engaged in the family, contributing in the family in this extra caregiving role.
- [04:28]
Dr. Barry Singer
Were there any specific things that the young carers who viewed it positively seemed to differ in compared to those who had more of a negative experience?
- [04:36]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
There are a couple of factors. So young carers that were sort of fairly problem solving focused were more likely to identify positive aspects in their caregiving role, but also on the emotional side, using coping strategies that were reality oriented. For example, the sacrifices that young carers make often have to make in terms of not having as much free time as their peers, and also the harsh realities of the ill parents disabilities. Having a realistic acceptance of what they were faced with was also adaptive.
- [05:26]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
If we switch the focus from young caregivers to adult caregivers, what are some of the unique challenges faced by that community?
- [05:32]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
The uncertainties around the course of Ms. Are hugely challenging. Uncertainty generally for humans is very, very difficult to deal with. You could almost label it as toxic. And this uncertainty, of course, is difficult for young people, but particularly for adults who are trying to plan and organize their life in adult ways. Not knowing when deterioration might occur, not knowing what symptoms may evolve over time, et cetera, these can create anxiety and a sense of helplessness that's quite profound.
- [06:22]
Dr. Barry Singer
Absolutely. And I observed this myself in the clinic when I'm talking with families of newly diagnosed patients. They had a specific idea for what life was going to look like or what their future was going to hold when all of a sudden this thing came crashing in. For those adult caregivers, are there specific burdens or stresses, or what does the outlook typically look like if you're a caregiver for someone with multiple cirrhosis?
- [06:45]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
There's two facets to that question. One is the carer's adjustment to this severe, complex, usually debilitating neurological disease. The patient is adjusting to this, but the carer is also adjusting to this illness reality. And that's a challenging process in and of itself. Over and above that, there's the second facet, which is the demands on the carer in relation to providing support. Physical support, practical support, financial support, emotional support, social support. So there's all the caring elements, which are challenging as well.
- [07:39]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
Are there statistics available on how adult caregivers manage this experience and do some do so more successfully than others?
- [07:46]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
Yeah. The focus on the research into carers in Ms. Has largely been on this idea of investigating burden. So there's many, many studies that have described the strain that caregiving has in terms of the carers, perhaps their employment, their time management, their recreational social domains, psychologically, emotionally, the strain in terms of their own physical health. So these strains have been widely documented. But these strains occur on a continuum, with some carers reporting high levels of burden or high levels of strain in many areas, and then some down the other end who are reporting lower levels of burden. Some of that variation in reporting and burden is to do with the severity of the person's Ms. And the amount of disability that's occurring. And some of it is to do with the characteristics of the carer, the personal resources that they have, the extent to which they're optimistic, the extent to which they engage in proactive problem solving, coping strategies, et cetera. And some of it is to do with other contextual factors, the amount of community resources, and also the extent to which there's a network that provides some scaffolding and support for them.
- [09:37]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
One thing I love about your research is that you focus a lot on unexpected positive outcomes of the caregiver experience. Can you talk about that a little bit here with adult carers?
- [09:46]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
Yeah. So similar to the positive aspects that young carers have spoken about, there are parallels in relation to adult carers. In fact, one of the ways in which carers can productively adjust to their situation is by way of finding positive elements of their situation that provides an avenue for making meaning and giving purpose to their caregiving and the situation that they find themselves in. So some of the benefits that carers have reported include the strengthening of the relationship between the carer and the person with ms, spiritual growth or development. So the caregiving role can challenge the caregiver in productive ways around reevaluating their values, reevaluating and adjusting their goals, developing positive attributes or qualities in their life that are important to them through the challenges that the caregiving provides. As a result of asking carers about the positive aspects of their caregiving role, we developed what was called a benefit finding scale, which has 20 odd items. So each of those items represents a benefit or a positive aspect that the carer has identified associated with their caregiving role.
- [11:41]
Dr. Barry Singer
Can you comment on how sort of the caregiver's well being and state of mind influences not only them but also the person living with multiple cirrhosis?
- [11:50]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
The carer, imperial patient are typically in some sort of relationship. Often that's within a family context. So often the carer is a family member. In ms, it's quite often a partner. And so the two, in my view, need to be considered as a unit together and not separated. The carer's goal here is to manage their situation, adjusting to the person's illness, plus their caregiving role in the best way possible. And that in turn positively influences the patient. But the patient also has a responsibility to, in a sense, adapt to their challenges in the best way possible. It's a challenging pathway that both walk together and one is influencing the other.
- [12:52]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
Absolutely.
- [12:53]
Dr. Barry Singer
And goes against what is more of the intuitive response if you're a caregiver, to sort of say, okay, I'm putting everything I want on hold. I'm now going to focus entirely on this person and that realization. The dyad relationship means it's just as important that you're caring for yourself, that you're still doing things that are meaningful and enjoyable if you want to be the best caregiver for your significant other as well.
- [13:16]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
Yeah, it's the underlying principle of effective relationships, whether they're in a caregiving role or not. This is always the purpose of each individual, to be the biggest, the best, the most fulfilled person they can be.
- [13:35]
Dr. Barry Singer
I think that transitions well to a toolkit that you could potentially give a patient or a caregiver to help help them with that process. You created an intervention ready for Ms. Would you mind talking a little bit about the intervention?
- [13:49]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
Ready is an acronym that stands for Resilience and Activities for Every Day. So the program is designed to enhance resilience building skills. It's based on a therapeutic approach called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. Acceptance and Commitment Therapy is further based on cognitive and behaviour therapy. It was originally developed as a group program. So people come together in a group. There's a facilitator, there are seven sessions. People attend those sessions, they have home assignments in between sessions to practise the skills. It's been modified to also be used as an online program, and it's also been delivered through real time video conferencing in a group as well as in person in a group. The research evaluations have supported the effectiveness of the program in developing resilience and resilience building skills, improving quality of life and decreasing distress. Ideally, I think it's best for psychological interventions that are aimed at helping people with Ms. To have the carer present, because it's teaching core generic fundamental resilience building skills that are applicable to any stressful or traumatic situation that a person is faced with. So both the person with Ms. And the carer can attend and both can benefit.
- [15:50]
Dr. Barry Singer
Similarly, what does the content look like in terms of what you're exploring or engaging with?
- [15:56]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
So we'd be focusing on six sets of skills. And these six sets of skills constitute psychological flexibility. One of the skills is clarifying and connecting personal values. So personal values provide direction in life, they provide pathways, and they help with the practical decision making. Now, in relation to Ms. And caregiving, even though there is a significant illness in the context, values don't change. So we have people who were, for example, very successful in their career, going at full speed, get diagnosed with Ms. And then unfortunately for them, have ended up quite disabled and maybe in some mechanized situation where they're immobile and reliant on a wheelchair or a scooter or something. And so in that situation you might think, well, no, they have to change their values. Well, no, they don't, because values are for life forever for the person. What needs to change are the goals in the pursuit of those values. So the second set of skills is about goal setting. And actually a lot of people know about goal setting. But what's often missed is personal values. And the two need to go together, personal values and goal setting. So moving on to a third skill, which is present moment awareness. So being connected to the present moment. And this is really important if you think of the uncertainty of Ms. And the effects that that has on the carer. Being grounded in the present, which is the only space that you can take effective action here and now is critical attached to mindfulness. When you practice getting connected to the present, you start to become aware of how particularly the mind pulls you out of present. And so what gets drowned out is this capacity humans have for observing, internal experiencing, particularly mental activity. And there is this capacity to observe thinking, which is really powerful, and observe the labels that we have of ourselves. Now this is really important for the person with Ms. Because one of the most powerful labels is patient or disabled, whatever the label Is that the person uses. So connecting to observer self keeps reminding the individual that they are bigger than their thoughts, they are bigger than their labels. Similarly, strengthening observing self reminds the carer they're much more complex and much bigger than that label. So that's the fourth set of skills connected to present moment awareness and the observer self is the skill of diffusion, which is simply observing mental activity. We're all pretty much aware in this day and age how mental activity, particularly thinking, can drive behavior, drive choices, drive reactivity responses. And so there's a whole set of skills around learning to observe thinking that is unhelpful and then making a choice. Is this unhelpful thinking in the service of my personal values? Yes. Go with it. No, take some other course of action. The final set of skills is around acceptance. So acceptance is a willingness to be open to to whatever arises within me. That means physical sensations, which may be, in a sense, neurological, but they also may be emotional and also mental activity, which is part of our internal experiencing. So the reason why acceptance is so important is that most of us spend a lot of time and a lot of energy avoiding discomfort. Acceptance is sitting with whatever arises spontaneously within me, acknowledging that it has a right to be there because it is there, and then turning my attention to some productive activity in the service of my personal values.
- [21:23]
Dr. Barry Singer
Wonderful. You mentioned that there's a form that you've created that's a digital version of the intervention. Is that something that's available to the public?
- [21:31]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
It's not. But the six set of skills that I've spoken about are part of the acceptance and commitment therapy approach. And there are all sorts of self help resources available that provide instruction on those six sets of skills. One very useful self help book is the Happiness Trap. So that's just an example.
- [21:57]
Dr. Barry Singer
Wonderful. Well, this has been extremely informative for me. Thanks so much for your time and thanks for everything you do for people living with Ms.
- [22:04]
Dr. Kenneth Pakenham
Thank you.
- [22:13]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
Our next guest has a very personal perspective on the topic of caregiving. Dan's been married to his wife Kim for 33 years, and for the last three years, they've been learning to live with her diagnosis of multiple sclerosis. Dan's a former state representative for the Missouri House of Representatives and is currently the director of the Missouri Grocers Association. He serves on the board of directors for the St. Louis charity Mississippi Bright Spots of Hope. Dan, thanks so much for joining us on Ms.
- [22:39]
Dan Schall
Living well, glad to be with you.
- [22:41]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
Would you mind telling the listeners a little bit about yourself?
- [22:44]
Dan Schall
I'm a Caregiver to Kim. Kim was diagnosed a few years ago with Ms. We've been married 33 years.
- [22:51]
Carrie Ed Harmon
Would you mind talking a little bit about when Kim got the diagnosis and maybe how that felt from your perspective?
- [22:58]
Dan Schall
Well, she was having some trouble with her balance. Just kept having some symptoms that you probably, until you put them all together, they don't spell Ms. And we knew something was wrong. But when we finally found out that it was ms, it was almost a relief to us in that we know what it is. It wasn't the C word, but it was the M word. But then also lots of questions came in, and I would say we were both inundated with a lot of people telling us what it was going to be like. Everybody had their opinion, yet they looked at Kim and said, well, there's nothing wrong. What's the problem? So it was an adjustment. And to say it's fully adjusted would be probably the best lie I've told ever, because every day is an adjustment. But if you have the right attitude, I think it's something you can get through.
- [23:49]
Carrie Ed Harmon
Before the diagnosis, had you heard of multiple sclerosis before?
- [23:52]
Dan Schall
I knew Ms. Was a disease, but no, I was living the perfect life. I still am, but my wife and I, very healthy, our kids healthy. Everything was fine.
- [24:04]
Carrie Ed Harmon
How long had Kim been having symptoms before the diagnosis?
- [24:06]
Dan Schall
Probably about a year and a half or two years, I would say. And it was just a bunch of little things that all of a sudden started meshing. And a contrasting MRI said, aha, we have the answer. Yes.
- [24:20]
Carrie Ed Harmon
Do you remember what your thought process was at the time when you kind of thought about the future when you get a diagnosis like that, when someone
- [24:27]
Dan Schall
is diagnosed with ms? I believe that Kim and I were both diagnosed with Ms. We both live with Ms. She has the disease. I live with the other half of it. So, yeah, all of a sudden, the plans you had in retirement, 20 years down the road, are you still going to be able to do the walk along the beach? Are you going to be able to do the hike through the mountains? And I'm a planner, and all of a sudden those plans kind of came undone. But I think I've turned that into a positive in that let's don't wait until we retire, till I retire to do these things. Let's do them now while she still has mobility and while we're still here. Tomorrow is not a guarantee.
- [25:12]
Carrie Ed Harmon
Were there specific things that you found helpful in those first couple months or that early time after the diagnosis?
- [25:18]
Dan Schall
My wife comes from a social Work background, so she'd be reading and trying to find things. And she fell upon a support group. I never considered myself one. Having to go to share group or a therapy session or a group like that. It's been the best thing. And then it turned into bright spots of hope. And having some type of support group is incredible. Certainly your friend group around you changes because those who are incredibly active may not be as active with you anymore because you don't have those common interests. But we still have a good core group of friends. But when we go to bright spots or the sharing and caring group, people are like us, have the same difficulties. And you can speak freely. And I've spoke to other care partners, and sometimes those are the best conversations I've had. Realizing that we're not alone in this, or I'm not alone in this. The other thing that helped greatly was going to these events where the different person associated with Ms. Talks about the disease and educate you. I now know more than I ever wanted to know about Ms. But I think knowledge has been a great help for me understanding what Kim's going through. So every day is a learning experience. My dad told me at one time, you don't have problems. You have opportunities. You can either mess them up or you can make the best of them. And we've, for the most part the three years have kept that positive attitude. There's been a couple times where we just want to go kick the rock or something, but that hasn't happened very often.
- [26:57]
Carrie Ed Harmon
I imagine it's a shift in some sense when you get a diagnosis of multiple sclerosis. And now there's sort of this kind of new identity that enters. How do you maintain that husband and wife identity or that kind of shared relationship you had beforehand?
- [27:11]
Dan Schall
I think the biggest thing is how has my role changed? I'm a husband first, and I'm going to love her forever, and I've made those commitments. I never made a commitment to be a caregiver, but I accept that responsibility. And sometimes I want to fix things. And I have to realize that as a caregiver, I just need to be there to listen and to help. Opening the door and waiting for her to get in, to make sure she gets in the car. Sometimes that's frustrating for her because she thinks I'm trying to do too much for her. And I think that is the hard thing. She doesn't want to let me help her, and I want to help her too much. And that's where the husband and the caregiver kind of Collide. Here's a funny thing that for the last 30 years, I've always pushed the grocery cart. I feel comfortable pushing the grocery cart now. With her mobility, it's best that she pushes the shopping cart. And that is uncomfortable for me. I know that seems so petty. However, those are things that, you know, been ingrained for me for 30 years with her. We go to the store and we do that now. It's changed, and I think it's good to talk to people about that. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about it today because I think it helps.
- [28:32]
Carrie Ed Harmon
I like your emphasis on being a husband first and a caregiver second. I think something I've noticed from reading the literature on support and multiple sclerosis is if you're not sort of secure and confident and doing okay, you almost collapse a little too much into that role of caregiver.
- [28:50]
Dan Schall
I think one other thing that I've learned is I am not a real good listener. I'm normally the one in our relationship that talks. Since she's been diagnosed with ms, I've had to learn to listen more and not just listen for the first time because of some of the cognitive issues. Sometimes I have to hear the same story three times. That is something that I'm having to learn. So while she deals with the effects of these, I have to relearn a lot of things myself on how to be supportive. So that's one of the things I've had trouble adapting to.
- [29:31]
Carrie Ed Harmon
You mentioned this a little already, but you guys had sort of a specific vision for yourselves in a future and then had to shift some of those plans with this new diagnosis. Could you talk a little bit about how that shift occurred or how things sort of changed to still keep that general dream in mind?
- [29:46]
Dan Schall
I think in some ways it has clarified them a little bit. It's helped us slow down a little bit. Well, let's be honest. No, it probably forced us to slow down, and that is. That's okay. We're just going to do them sooner. And we kind of reinvigorated our attitude of let's live for today and what happens tomorrow happens tomorrow, but let's enjoy today the best we can. Now, my wife is very fortunate where she is in her Ms. Journey. It could change tomorrow, but that's tomorrow. We're going to do what we can do today to enjoy it. And we're fortunate that we have a good, solid relationship. So I'm not dreading Ms. I'm really looking forward to what opportunities it presents us Next. And it's presented some great opportunities. Went on a bike ride out in Colorado. We would have never done bike rides in Colorado. We've done other things and met some great people along the way. Is it what we thought it would be? No. But that doesn't mean it can't still be enjoyable. Does it mean we can walk all day long? No. We don't have to take breaks. When she was first diagnosed, we had planned a trip to visit with our son who was stationed in England. Our doctor said, you're going to have to take some breaks. You're going to have to sit down and stop and rest. And I look back now and I was a complete jerk. And this was at Windsor Castle because she just sat down, took a break and laid down on the lawn of Windsor Castle. I'm like, we can't be doing this. But looking back, it was absolutely the right thing. And I think that was when I realized that I'm going to have to change a little bit. One other thing, I think it's very important for caregivers is to make sure that they have something to occupy their time and something that is still theirs and maintain that identity. Whether it's exercise, going to ball games or if it's watching something or reading or doing some type of hobby, you have to have something to get away from it a little bit. And I don't think that's a bad thing. You have to take care of yourself.
- [32:02]
Carrie Ed Harmon
What things replenish you the most, would you say?
- [32:05]
Dan Schall
I love sports, I love baseball, I love hockey. I think the caregiver really needs to focus on ourselves as well because if we get sick or hurt ourselves, it doesn't just hurt us, it hurts both of us. So we have to be very careful about that. Right after she quit working a week after that, I spent a week in the hospital. I really realized then what we meant to each other. And she was there for me and I'll be there for her. And it has changed our lives. Absolutely. I would also say that Ms. Has forced us or allowed us to really come back after raising kids, to come back together. And we've used it as an opportunity to reconnect, to really solidify our relationship for the next hundred years, however long she can put up with me.
- [32:57]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
That's a really beautiful takeaway. What do you think is something that people on the outside wouldn't know about your day to day role as a caregiver?
- [33:05]
Dan Schall
I'm pretty fortunate. She takes care of herself very well. I don't have to do Much. But I have to be there emotionally. And I have to remind her every day that she has Ms. And it's okay to not be able to go out and plant flowers all day. It's okay to take a break, it's okay to sit down. It's okay to have Ms. And I think that is probably the thing I do that most people never see. And I think most caregivers would agree that that is hard to accept that it's okay to have Ms. You have to take the circumstances you're given and make the best of them. A lot of times the person with Ms. Wants to think about their life before Ms. And use that as a benchmark. It's completely different now. There's a different benchmark. And I try to remind her and remind myself that each day we're going to set a new benchmark. We're going to have the best day we can. I travel quite a bit and Hampton Inns. On the inside of the elevator as you get out, it says, it's a good day for a good day. And I think that's the attitude you have to have. Even though she has ms, it's a good day for a good day. I know that sounds corny at times, but I can't run as fast as I did when I was in high school. She can't either. She has Ms. I don't. But it's okay. Things change. And don't judge yourself against what you used to be able to do. Judge yourself against what you're doing today.
- [34:39]
Carrie Ed Harmon
Absolutely. You know, take those dreams that you were putting off in the future and have those dreams now and use it as an opportunity to invigorate yourself.
- [34:46]
Dan Schall
Yeah. And even the dreams, you're going to have to adjust them. And it's okay. When you first have ms, you think, well, I can't do that as much as I used to. You just have to change the way you do it. Maybe get there earlier, maybe research parking a little bit differently. And everybody's story is different because it is a snowflake type disease. I think you have to compare yourself to yourself instead of trying, well, she's able to do this, or he's able to do. No, what can you do? And what can I do to make it better or more enjoyable? Our society now, we always compare ourselves to the Joneses. I think it's important to really compare ourselves. Ourselves.
- [35:27]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
You know, that's such great advice. You mentioned earlier that your social life has changed since the diagnosis in ways that you didn't expect. Could you talk a little bit more about that.
- [35:37]
Dan Schall
Yeah, I think the change of people around you when you're diagnosed with a disease, it became a process of thinning out some of our friends. But I think that was probably the biggest struggle we had, is that some people weren't ready to have a friend with Ms. And I think so many times today we want to worry about how many friends we have. And I've learned it's not about volume of friends, it's about. About quality of friends. And I think that's been a challenge for us to realize that some people feel is that Ms. Is a hindrance to her. So while we can't ask him to do this because she won't, you know, and I tell people that don't have ms, just ask. People with Ms. Can do anything they want.
- [36:32]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
Absolutely.
- [36:32]
Carrie Ed Harmon
And it's tragic because you imagine some of those people, they may on some level think they're helping by maybe not engaging as much or sparing you from something. But to your point, anything's possible. It's just about putting in that effort and that energy and thinking about it in different ways. And it's a great way to ask a final question. If you had to give advice to maybe a couple who were just diagnosed, what advice or perspective would you give them?
- [36:59]
Dan Schall
1. I would use the term that you have Ms. Ms. Doesn't have you. I would also tell them that you're not alone. There's so many more people out there that have Ms. Than we see and live each day, because, hell, you may be hit by a car tomorrow and they're all over, and it has nothing to do with Ms. Enjoy what you have. And you're going to have angry days. It's okay. Start focusing on the opportunities you have now.
- [37:29]
Carrie Ed Harmon
I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us, Dan, and this meant a lot, and I think it'll be great for a lot of our listeners.
- [37:43]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
Thank you to Dr. Kenneth Pakenham and Dan Shaw for helping us better understand the caregiver experience in Ms. Today's conversations remind us that while caregiving brings very real challenges, it can also serve as a catalyst for resilience, connection, and community. And as a former caregiver myself, I can certainly testify to the ways the experience has shaped my life for the better. Thanks again to TG Therapeutics for sponsoring this episode. Keep in mind the topics we discuss on this show are strictly informational and not medical advice. Any change in your treatment should be discussed directly with your healthcare providers first. Our show is hosted by me, Dr. Jamie Holloman and Dr. Barry Singer and produced by Carrie Ed Harmon. Our theme music is by Broke For Free. If you like the episode, please share it with others Living with Ms. And we would love it if you could help post a positive review on Apple Podcasts.
- [38:34]
Dr. Barry Singer
It really makes a difference to us
- [38:35]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
and helps more people find out about the show. You can follow Me on X, RainBoyneur01 and Dr. Barry Singer at Dr. Barry Singer. More information about our guests and their websites can be found in the show notes for this episode and the blog section on mslivingwell.
- [38:51]
Dan Schall
Org.
- [38:51]
Dr. Jamie Holloman
Thanks so much for listening. This has been an Ms. Living well podcast.