Avada Cow-Davra (OOTP Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake)

Summary

MuggleCast: Avada Cow-Davra (OOTP Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake) – Detailed Summary

Release Date: April 1, 2025

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1. Harry Potter TV Show Casting News

Host Andrew kicks off the episode with exciting updates about the forthcoming Harry Potter TV series. The primary focus is on the casting of Nick Frost as Rubeus Hagrid. Recognized for his roles in Edgar Wright and Simon Pegg's films like The World's End and Shaun of the Dead, Frost brings a unique blend of humor and heart to the role.

Laura expresses enthusiasm, stating at [01:58] “I think this is a great casting. I'm so excited about this.”

The hosts delve into Frost's previous works, discussing his portrayal of a droid in the Disney Star Wars series Skeleton Crew and his potential to embody Hagrid's lovable yet quirky personality. Eric adds humor by speculating, “I heard Micah Noping, so it sounds like he hasn't seen these motion pictures,” highlighting Frost’s versatile acting range ([03:11]).

Additionally, the conversation touches on potential casting for other pivotal characters like Dumbledore, Snape, and McGonagall, emphasizing the importance of these roles in establishing the series' credibility and depth.

2. Chapter 21 Analysis: The Eye of the Snake

The heart of the episode revolves around a comprehensive analysis of Chapter 21 from Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, titled "The Eye of the Snake." The hosts dissect Hagrid's first lesson back at Hogwarts, where he introduces the students to Thestrals.

Hagrid's Thestrals Lesson: Hagrid attempts to demystify these misunderstood creatures, presenting them as intelligent beings rather than omens of death. However, the lesson faces several challenges:

• Limited Visibility: Only a few students, including Harry, can see the Thestrals, leading to confusion and fear among others.
• Umbridge’s Interruption: Dolores Umbridge disrupts the lesson, undermining Hagrid's authority and casting doubt on his teaching methods.

Eric breaks down the pros and cons of the lesson:

Pros: "Thestrals are interesting... he had the whole class's attention probably the whole time." ([17:38])

Cons: “Hagrid should have done the work to follow up... they're off-putting.” ([19:46])

Discussion Highlights:

• Hagrid’s Preparation: The hosts debate whether Hagrid adequately prepared the lesson, considering that most students couldn't see the Thestrals. Micah suggests that Hagrid might have been distracted by personal issues, affecting his focus ([22:20]).

• Umbridge’s Role: Laura and Micah analyze Umbridge's motivations, portraying her as antagonistic and manipulative, using the opportunity to embarrass Hagrid in front of the students ([34:02], [35:25]).

• Dumbledore’s Influence: Speculations arise about Hagrid’s communication with Dumbledore, questioning why Hagrid wasn’t informed about Umbridge’s arrival or provided guidance for his lesson ([29:35], [30:23]).

Notable Quotes:

• Eric on Hagrid’s preparation: “But because he doesn't, I ultimately don't think he threads the needle on this whole thing.” ([17:38])

• Laura on Umbridge’s manipulation: “She can play off Draco and Pansy and all of the Slytherins...” ([35:07])

3. Harry’s First Kiss with Cho Chang

A pivotal part of the episode discusses Harry’s first kiss with Cho Chang, exploring its awkwardness and emotional complexity.

Scene Breakdown: Harry attempts to kiss Cho during a Christmas event, but the moment is fraught with emotions:

• Unexpected Timing: Cho is grieving the loss of Cedric Diggory, making the kiss impromptu and laden with unresolved feelings.
• Emotional Impact: The kiss leaves both characters unsure of how to proceed, reflecting the real-life awkwardness of first kisses.

Host Insights:

• Andrew humorously remarks on the awkwardness: “I was like, cheese. Little update on have a very hairy Christmas merch on Etsy.” ([41:28])

• Laura empathizes with Cho’s emotional state: “Cho is a child who is struggling with severe trauma...” ([45:35])

Notable Quotes:

• Eric reflects on the realism of the moment: “I think reading this, I just have to laugh. Like, there's this line. She hiccuped again...” ([74:21])

• Laura connects it to real-life experiences: “First Kiss stories are always awkward and fumbling...” ([46:44])

4. Listener Participation: First Kiss Stories

Engaging with their audience, the hosts share and discuss listener-submitted stories about their own first kisses, highlighting the universal awkwardness and emotional nuances of such experiences.

Highlighted Stories:

• Kayla B. shares a cringe-worthy French kiss from middle school ([68:37]).
• Shannon recounts a kiss complicated by braces ([68:50]).
• Robert P. describes a kiss so botched his future husband joked about needing another one ([69:20]).
• Charlotte talks about a slobbery kiss outside a movie theater wearing overalls ([72:10]).
• Carly shares a heartfelt story about a first kiss during a hiking trip, leading to a long-term relationship ([73:17]).

Host Reflections:

• Andrew and Laura empathize with the awkwardness, offering humorous and supportive commentary on each story.
• Micah and Eric add their own anecdotes, further enriching the conversation with personal insights ([74:09], [76:12]).

5. Quiz Segment: Quizzage

Wrapping up the content discussion, the hosts engage listeners with a fun quiz segment, testing their knowledge on Harry Potter lore. They acknowledge the various creative and humorous responses from listeners, encouraging continued participation.

Current Quiz Question:

"Capable of reaching a length of roughly 19ft and weighing around 28 pounds, what is the largest known venomous snake species in the world?" ([78:46])

Listeners are encouraged to submit their answers via the MuggleCast website.

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Conclusion:

In this episode of MuggleCast, the hosts provide an in-depth analysis of Chapter 21 of Order of the Phoenix, intertwining it with current updates on the Harry Potter TV series. Through thoughtful discussions on character development, plot intricacies, and relatable listener stories, the episode offers both fans and newcomers a comprehensive understanding of the Wizarding World. Notable insights include the examination of Hagrid's teaching challenges, Umbridge's antagonistic maneuvers, and the emotional complexity of Harry's first romantic encounter.

For those who couldn't tune in, this summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, offering a rich and engaging overview of key points, discussions, and fan interactions.

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Note: Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections have been omitted to focus solely on the informative and engaging discussions of the podcast.

Transcript

[Eric]

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[Micah]

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[Andrew]

Welcome to Mugglecast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

We're your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books, the movies, the forthcoming TV show. We have an update there coming in a minute, so make sure you follow the show in your favorite podcast app. That way you will never miss a new episode. And this week on the show, in addition to a little Harry Potter TV news, grab your tissues because we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 21, the Eye of the Snake. Yet another chapter that's Slytherin coded in its title. We had lion and the Serpent coming.

[Eric]

On here so much.

[Andrew]

I'm a Slytherin. So this is my type of chapter title, right?

[Micah]

No. Eye of the Tiger, Eye of the.

[Andrew]

That's an half Blood Prince. Right?

[Eric]

You know, I was trying to thread the needle on that, but the Gryffindor of the Lions and. Micah, you just went out and said it. Thank you for that.

[Micah]

Well, Andrew's not too far grown up near Philadelphia, so I figured maybe there'd be a little bit of a tie there.

[Andrew]

Like Rocky.

[Micah]

Rocky.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, let's get into some Harry Potter TV show news. It looks like we have our Hagrid, Nick Frost. You may recognize him from the Edgar Wright and Simon Pegg movies the World's End and Shaun of the Dead. He voices a droid, actually, in the Disney Star wars series skeleton crew. He's 52 years old, and I think he's got the Hagrid look. I see it.

[Eric]

Right.

[Laura]

I think this is a great casting. I'm so excited about this. Honestly, I'm feeling really positive. Based on all the casting news we've gotten so far, this is another win, I think.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Eric, do you know this actor? I heard Micah Noping, so it sounds like he hasn't seen these motion pictures.

[Eric]

Yeah, Micah's noping was covering up my yapping. I've known Nick Frost for a while. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep. Including the World's End, which also starred Emma Watson.

[Andrew]

No, no, no. You're thinking the end of the world.

[Eric]

Not the World's End. Right.

[Laura]

World's End was a different movie.

[Eric]

The World's End is a pub. Right. I think they fight or kick Emma Watson at the end of it. I think she's in that movie.

[Andrew]

You're thinking of that Seth Rogen movie about the end of the world. What is that one called? The End of the this is the.

[Laura]

End or something like that. This is the End.

[Eric]

The World's End pub, I'm pretty sure. Anyway, Nick Frost, Hot Fuzz. Everyone knows Hot Fuzz, and I think he was in a Doctor who episode. I think he played Santa Claus at some point. So, yes, Nick Frost. And not just riffing on the name there comedic character. And I think that for, you know, Hagrid has a lot of heart, but Hagrid is also funny. And especially in the early years, we see sort of the awkwardness. And I think it's a great opportunity for some humor now because he's collabor Simon Pegg. So many times I said that. Now I want Simon Pegg to be peeves. But actually, one of our listeners, Robert, I think I was telling this to, said actually, what if Simon Pegg instead played Phineas Nigelis Black?

[Andrew]

Oh, okay. That'd be cool.

[Eric]

We know. Was actually the role that Simon Pegg played in Hogwarts Legacy, the likeness after him. And so now that's my headcanon. Now that has to happen.

[Laura]

Yeah. I mean, and technically it would be canon for him to be cast. I mean, he originated the role.

[Eric]

Unbelievable.

[Micah]

Now, in Skeleton crew, he played SM33.

[Andrew]

Yes. Okay, well, I just said a droid because I thought it was like, I don't know. I haven't seen the show.

[Micah]

But, Eric, you and I did a episode of what the Hype on Skeleton Crew and I loved SM33. So maybe that is a good omen.

[Andrew]

Did SM33 have some comedic chops?

[Micah]

I would say so, because.

[Eric]

Oh, yeah, he's a swashbuckling pirate droid that does and doesn't know the key to the Skeleton Crew's origins. Yeah, it's a great role.

[Micah]

But I do think it is important because Hagrid really is the heartbeat of the Harry Potter series. He's a major role. And I know we've gotten casting for Dumbledore for snape, presumably for McGonagall, but Hagrid is different. Hagrid is everybody's best friend. And I feel like this is one of the characters you really need to get right. You can do all right with the trio, but Hagrid, Dumbledore, Snape, that trio, I would say, is extremely important.

[Andrew]

Yeah, well, and I'm also thinking now we've touched before on who they're prioritizing in terms of casting, and now I'm starting to think we have our Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall and Hagrid. I'm wondering if they're prioritizing the characters who they want to screen test the trio against, because obviously they can't screen test these young kids against the entire cast. There's going to be too many characters. But who are the most important to screen test them against? I would probably say Dumbledore and Hagrid might be number one and two. And then probably Snape and McGonagall, right?

[Laura]

Yeah, 100%. You think about which adult characters are they going to share the most screen time with? It's those four.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

So thank you all for correcting me in real time. It turns out I have seen both the World's End and this is the End. Both films apocalyptic came out in 2013 and their runtime is within two minutes of each other. Very similar movies. I'm going to go out on a limb.

[Andrew]

It's like, I was sure Emma Watson and Nick Frost were in a 2 hour and 5 minute movie movie together.

[Eric]

I'm pretty sure. Yeah, No, I was slightly off there. But you know what, I've seen both movies, so that's like, I know I've seen this.

[Andrew]

Okay, well, well, maybe James Franco will be cast in the Harry Potter TV show and you can be like, I saw him in this is the End.

[Eric]

Yes. And Seth Rogen for Slughorn. You've heard it here first. I, you know, I know we're like six years out, but it's gonna happen.

[Andrew]

None of the actors we've been speaking about that have been reportedly cast in the Harry Potter TV show have been confirmed by Warner Brothers. So I guess you could say these castings could still change. John Lithgow continues talking about playing Dumbledore even though Warner Brothers hasn't said a peep, which I find so funny.

[Laura]

Actually feel like that's a very Dumbledore thing to do.

[Andrew]

Either he talks too little or he talks too much.

[Micah]

So is it fair to say that we anticipate a press release at some point in the near future?

[Andrew]

Well, they're going to start filming over the summer, so I would think maybe by the time they announced the start of production because usually there's an announcement made when that type of thing happens. We'll get a bunch of cast members. Yeah. So yeah, we have our Dumbledore, our Snape, our McGonagall, and our Hagrid if the reports are to be believed. So stay with Mugglecast for more Harry Potter TV show coverage and follow us in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube. If you love Mugglecast and want to help us soar like Harry on a Firebolt, visit patreon.com mugglecast and pledge today you'll get instant access to over 150. I counted them up the other day. Bonus Mugglecast episodes, ad free episodes, a new physical gift every year, the chance to co host the show one day and so much more. We could not do this without you. So we are as grateful for you and your support as Cho is to have a shoulder to kiss and cry on.

[Eric]

Okay, that was so well put. Just like in the book.

[Andrew]

Just trying to tie it into the chapter. Other great ways to support us. You can pick up [e-mail] you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. You can also send an owl to a friend about the show if they need some Harry Potter friends in their lives. Also visit mugglecast.com for more information about the show and how to contact us. Now it's time for chapter by chapter and we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 21, the Eye of the Snake, like we did a few years ago, right, Eric?

[Eric]

That's exactly right. We last talked about this chapter on episode 457 of Mugglecast titled the Grim Granger came out on March 16th of 2020. And here's a clip from that.

[Laura]

Three turns should do it, I think.

[Eric]

Good luck.

[Andrew]

What the.

[Eric]

Episode 457.

[Laura]

Whereas in Prisoner of Azkaban, Hagrid is happy to accept. And then here, in Order of the Phoenix, he's very resistant.

[Andrew]

I got this girl, you know, Good on Hermione for wanting to help Hagrid, but poor Hagrid gets no help from anybody else except for a student.

[Micah]

Yeah, so you think that. You think somebody else should have tried to help him out, Give him warning maybe?

[Andrew]

Like, does he have anybody who can come to his aid when he needs it? Or does he have any close friends, you know, who can help him out from time to time? It just seems like he's hopeless. Yeah, Dumbledore, mysterious thing time. Was that Laura, your Covid cough or was that comedic cough?

[Laura]

I will neither Confirm nor deny.

[Micah]

Yeah, March.

[Eric]

March 16, 2020. Yeah, that's the week, man. Well, we are actually going to be picking up that thread as the chapter begins with sort of Hermione's attempt to write a future at point. Wrong. Hagrid's doomed lesson. I. I call it doomed because it's. Well, it's doomed for many reasons, but Hermione has attempted to kind of get through to him. Hagrid, this is what you can expect. You know, Umbridge is really, really awful. She's going to spot and exploit any weakness. He doesn't seem to, first of all, be listening to her. He's distracted. Like, Hermione spent a good portion of her day down there. She was there for half an hour, just knocking on the door. He wasn't there. He was off with, we know, Grup in the forest. But he's so distracted he's not paying any attention. And all she's trying to do is do a solid for him. But it's kind of crazy that, that Hagrid is not receptive to this because you would think he missed being back as much as they missed him. So wouldn't he welcome the kind of help that she's trying to give?

[Laura]

I do think. Not to reiterate something I said in the clip from five years ago, but it is really interesting to see Hagrid's evolution. And I think this is something that I was trying to get at last week when we talked about the shift in Hagrid's character. I think because of having had such an important mission given to him, I think Hagrid's feeling an extra level of responsibility. It's very clear that he's trying at some points to create, like, a hierarchy between he and the trio so that he's, like, not letting children hear more or do more than they need to. And I think that's kind of what he's doing here by trying to take ownership of his lessons even in the face of what Hermione's warning him about, which ultimately does come to pass.

[Eric]

That's interesting because in the same chapter, during his lesson, Hagrid tells literally everyone that Dumbledore sometimes sneaks out a Thestral and takes it on long, long, long journeys. Like, I'm pretty sure Dumbledore didn't want that fact known. So Hagrid's a great agent for Dumbledore. He tells them all the secrets are coming out.

[Laura]

Yeah, I mean, Hagrid, I mean, he's. We've known him since book one to be A horrible secret keeper.

[Eric]

Loose lips. Yep. But, yeah, I. I think that's very interesting about him wanting to come off as. As more of an adult. I think he doesn't. And again, with Umbridge, I think we all have a tendency to this. Like, if somebody told you that. That a teacher like. Like Umbridge was coming in book five, and we hadn't read book five yet, how much can you really, like, understand about how awful she is or how much, like, Prep needs to happen to, like, kind of handle her? So I think it's not until she's there in front of him that he really sees kind of what's going on. But regarding the lesson itself, it is Thestrals in the Forbidden Forest, which I decided to break the lesson down into pros and cons. There's one pro, and there's like six or seven cons we're going to discuss.

[Andrew]

I did want to say, before we get to your pros and cons, Eric, Hagrid has to make a shrieking cry to get the Thestrals to kind of come out of hiding, which scares the students. And also, I'm trying to picture Hagrid doing a shrieking cry. And that's hard to imagine, isn't it?

[Laura]

I imagine it sounding like. Like a bird cry, you know? Yeah.

[Eric]

Death.

[Laura]

That essentially. Yeah.

[Andrew]

I think I just disturbed my sleeping dog when I did that.

[Eric]

I picture it more of, like, the Obi Wan Kenobi. Not to take it to Star wars again, but when Obi Wan tries to ward off, I think it's the Sand People, he makes, like, this Krayt dragon shriek. I think it's, like, kind of thing, but better. That, to me, is kind of what it sounds like in my head.

[Micah]

I think what it shows, though, is that Hagrid has an understanding of these creatures that maybe other professors or other people who would approach teaching this course wouldn't necessarily have. We know that he has been able to basically create this group of Thestrals, which doesn't seem like almost domesticate them in a way. Right. That's not something that I think many people have been able to do, at least from, you know, what we're told in. In this book. But I liken the sound maybe to the same sound as when Aberforth gets a hold of one of his goats.

[Eric]

Okay. And that.

[Andrew]

Okay, from Eric sounded like a. All right, we're moving.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

All right.

[Eric]

The Thestrals like to watch, and so they'll come out to that. To that sound.

[Laura]

Oh, you know, I. I think we should Keep it moving.

[Eric]

Yeah. So, anyway, let.

[Micah]

Let's. Though, just before we jump into the lesson itself I do think it's important to connect some threads here back to Prisoner of Azkaban because this lesson is very similar to a lesson that happens with the Hippogriff, Buckbeak where there's just a lot of nonsense happening throughout the course of the lesson and it ultimately results in Draco getting injured. We're dealing, of course, with winged creatures in both instances. And in one case. Actually, in both cases, I think the students are quite fearful of Buckbeak and they're also quite fearful of the Thestrals for very different reasons. So there is a through line here going back to book three.

[Eric]

Yeah, I like that.

[Laura]

I love that. And I think we can pull the thread a bit more, too, and say that in both cases, Harry is kind of the odd man out, if you will. He's in book three, one of the only students who's affected by Dementors. And now he's one of the only students that can see Thestrals.

[Eric]

Or is it always him?

[Micah]

And in both cases, Hagrid ends up in trouble with the Ministry.

[Laura]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Ooh.

[Eric]

Yeah, that's pretty good. Well, it was mildly satisfying to see Draco a little worried about the forest. He's kind of freaking out. What did he say? What did he say was in there? Huh? Huh? These are gonna be trained, right? Not like last time. Yeah, you better squirm, buddy. So that was. That was pretty satisfying. But actually, to your point, Micah, about what you were saying, he says that he was the only person in Britain who's trained Thestrals. And now that does speak to his competence. I don't know so much that he's the only one that could do it as he is the only one that maybe would do it, that would see the value in these creatures, maybe. You know, I'm sure it's difficult, but at the same time, thestrals aren't, from what it seems like, on anybody's radar, largely because so so few people can see them. It's just a really interesting niche that that Hagrid himself has carved out. So it does go to his credit, I think, overall. And when we're looking at this, you know, class in terms of pros and cons, ultimately the pro I have is that Thestrals are interesting. They ultimately, like, even if you can't see them. There was enough with this lesson to kind of unnerve people. And I don't know if that's always a positive thing. But like ultimately, I think he had the whole class's attention probably the whole time.

[Andrew]

Definitely. Especially because only a small number of the students can see the Thestrals and the others can't. But then they're looking at this dead cow and something seems to be chomping away at it and they can't see what that is. So it's, it's, it's a, it's definitely a fascinating lesson and one I would be interested in seeing Hagrid teach me. I like. I don't want the blast ended. Skrewts and some of these other strange ones.

[Eric]

Right? They get a mention too. Like at least it's not scroots. But Harry's just happy that he's not crazy. The fact that he happened into this lesson and he sees these winged creatures that he's been looking at all year that pull the school carriages. He's like so relieved. He's about to figure out what these creatures deal is. So that's a nice kind of resolution. I mean ultimately, even though I just said that the class is interesting enough to keep everyone's attention, I don't know that it is the world's biggest setting yourself up for success to teach a lesson on something that only three or if Hagrid didn't know, a very small number of students are going to be able to see. Yes, people are going to be able to see the dead cow get eaten. How enticing will that be to watch though? And for a prolonged period of time. That's kind of gross. You're going to be relying on what the students who can see them see. And it looks like everyone who can see them besides Harry is ill. The Slytherin that can see them is like watching its tail or something. Neville is beside himself, kind of like getting creeped out. So ultimately, although they're interesting, they're off putting. I don't think this is actually the world's best choice for Hagrid.

[Andrew]

I was kind of hoping that Hagrid's dead cow was going to activate the student's ability to see thestrals somehow.

[Eric]

We're about to get into really cool.

[Andrew]

Okay, they saw death with the dead cow baby. Sounds really bad, but heckered like kills the cow.

[Eric]

And today class, we have a prisoner from the Ministry of Magic here. He's been sentenced to death.

[Andrew]

Everybody say 1, 2, 3. Avada Kedavra. Avada Caldavra. Abracadabra.

[Eric]

Gaga.

[Andrew]

Ooh la la.

[Laura]

You all learned the unforgivable Curses last year.

[Eric]

Last year.

[Andrew]

I think for Research purposes. You would think there was some way to temporarily activate the ability to see Thestrals if you had not seen a human die before. Right. Doesn't that kind of make sense?

[Eric]

Well, yeah. And if anything, powder. Right. Like baby powder. Like just. Or something that's like a light. Light dusty dust. Pixie dust.

[Laura]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say here. I feel like this. It is a con based on the way the lesson happens. But I feel like this could be a pro if you did it the right way, by finding a way for every like 5% of people who can't see them. Still finding a way for them to engage. Let them touch the Thestrals. We know they're domesticated. Let people who are feeling brave enough get up and sit on one's back. We know Dumbledore takes them out sometimes. We know everybody's going to be riding a Thestral at the end of this book. So I think there are tactile ways that people who can't see them could be engaged. And then honestly, the name of the game from a teacher perspective is if you can find a way to get your students to engage with each other over the material. That's a total win. So if you could have these students talking with and educating each other about what they're learning about Thestrals based on what they can or can't see, it could have been a really cool lesson.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Yeah. The reason why it's such a big miss though, for me is because this is Hagrid's first lesson back and he's tripping over his own feet because he's not really doing a great job of setting himself up for success. He's showing them a creature that only a very small portion of the students can actually see and therefore engage with. Think it's even mentioned at one point that these are newt level creatures and Hagrid is bringing them to an owl level class. And it's only further complicated by the fact that Umbridge shows up and is going to make his experience even that much worse than it already is. And I'm not sure what Hagrid could have done to make this go Right at the end of the day, it's clear that he's still going through quite a bit. The students have also just come off a series of classes where they've been really well educated by Gribbly Plank. So it's kind of like the only direction that it can go is down. And Hagrid makes sure that it goes really far down. So. And I love Hagrid, but it's just, it's a. It's a tough spot for him to be in right here.

[Laura]

I agree. Hagrid is always way more concerned with making a big splash and impressing people, getting the ooh and off actors. So he's not thinking two steps beyond that of like, okay, well, when I introduce thestrals that 95% of my class isn't even going to be able to see, what then.

[Eric]

Right.

[Laura]

Feels like that. It's like the next steps part that he's frequently missing.

[Eric]

And Umbridge's ultimate inspection. During this lesson though she's a little late, which is rude, you know, was not unannounced. She apparently left a letter with him and still he brushed it off despite all of Hermione's advice. And so it's kind of his own fault anything that should happen to him. Although it's sad to see because she clearly has it in for him for multiple reasons. But ultimately Umbridge can't see what's going on either. If Haggard had ACT design the lesson to lord what you're saying in a way where the Thestrals can be seen or at least viewed somehow by the class, then Umbridge could maybe see the merit of teaching these today. But he should have just stuck to Grubbly Plank's lesson plans. Apparently it was all worked out.

[Andrew]

I actually think the fact that many students can't see them does make it a good lesson because it's fascinating how they can't see them now. I do agree. Maybe he needs some photos of these, some illustrations of what ancestrals actually look like. Or how about say, hey Harry. Hey Neville. Can you describe what it looks like for the rest of the class?

[Laura]

Yep.

[Micah]

It's a great point. I did want to call BS though on Umbridge not being able to see them. It seems very strange that someone her age wouldn't be able to see Thestrals. And I know you actually have to see death, which is different than just seeing a dead body or a dead cow. But she seems to be a middle aged woman at this point. I know it adds to the story the fact that she can't see them because it just makes his lesson even that much worse. But it is a little surprising, especially considering the type of person that she is. And we know that she's very much in league with Voldemort as the series progresses.

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah. She seems like the kind of person who would not turn down an opportunity to witness an execution. You know what I mean?

[Eric]

That's well put. Yeah. Yeah.

[Laura]

So I don't know, I guess I would wonder like what, what would be the reason for her to pretend she couldn't see them? I mean if it just, I guess it adds to the ruse she's putting on.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

To be contrarian, the fact that he planned something so haphazardly she could easily put herself on the side of the students. And you know, we know, we've all read the chapter. She goes around and basically recruits volunteers to make fun of the lesson ultimately. And she uses sort of their feedback, even appropriating Neville's like bemused stare to say that he's afraid of them and intimidated. And there's this whole half breed thing, there's this whole Hagrid's intelligence thing but she's just absolutely running amok. And in fact why do this during a Gryffindor Slytherin lesson? This is another problem. Hagrid allowed himself to get inspected in a room or a forest clearing full of his enemies. All of the Slytherins hate him. Many of them are quoted by the Daily Prophet as saying negative things about him in the past, if not the giant article of last year than the first one with Hippogriff Buckbeak that we were talking about earlier. So he's surrounded by his enemies and it's just not smart for him to have done taken any risks ultimately. And I know that's kind of Hagrid's thing is taking risks but he should have played it way more safe or, or done the work to follow up. He should have even told Hermione.

[Andrew]

Maybe part of the reason he didn't think this through is because he was just excited to be back at school and excited to be teaching again. So he was just kind of riding on joy.

[Eric]

Well just instead, instead of saying okay Hermione, I'm not listening to you about anything. He should have said I'm not going to listen to what you want me to teach, but here I'm doing Thestrals. How do I make it so more people can see him? Something like that, you know, and she would have helped him with that. She would have had the exact spell ready.

[Micah]

Part of me thinks he's just distracted with everything else that's going on with Grop, which we don't know about yet at this point but it seems like having just gotten back from his trip with Madame Maxime, having really not presumably had a whole lot of time to talk with Dumbledore about that and the fact that his brother is beating the crap out of him every time that he goes to visit him. I just don't think his attention is really focused on the lesson. And honestly, this is kind of an easy lesson for him because these are creatures, as you said before, Eric, that he is domesticated and has been able to get under his control. So he doesn't really necessarily have to worry about the lesson itself getting out of control because he seems to have a level of control over the situation itself. But it leads to something I wanted to bring up later, which is how can he have been back for even just a day or two and not have talked with Dumbledore, not have gotten any going back to what Laura said in the flashback? How is it possible that he didn't get a heads up on Umbridge? It makes no sense to me.

[Laura]

Well, do we pin that on Dumbledore.

[Micah]

Like he's the headmaster 100%.

[Laura]

Like, I mean if, if Umbridge, sorry, came, came to see, like, it's kind of shocking to me that Umbridge came to see Hagrid before Dumbledore tried to see Hagrid.

[Andrew]

Like, do we know for sure Dumbledore and Hagrid haven't spoken since he's been back?

[Eric]

I don't think we know for sure.

[Andrew]

No, because he just went on a mission for him. So it, it leads me to believe that they would have checked in and sure may. What if Dumbledore said to Hagrid, Umbridge is going to be coming through one of your classes. Just go with. Would be strange that Dumbledore didn't try to suggest what type of lesson to do. But maybe Dumbledore is also like, yeah, she's going to be making changes at the school, but they're going to be temporary. Let's hope. And I can undo all this after.

[Eric]

Yeah. The weird thing is, the only thing that calls into question for me whether Dumbledore's talked to Haggard or not is the circumstances by which Hagrid came back. He, he and Madame Maxime broke things off when he wanted to take Grop back with him. And that was not Dumbledore's orders. Dumbledore probably wants nothing to do with Grop. Dumbledore would, if he knew, would probably be like, that's a horrible idea to bring Grop into the Forbidden Forest. And so I'm saying it's Hagrid's own direction and sort of personal business that maybe scuttled any chance. Like maybe Hagrid's avoiding Double Door even because he doesn't want Dumbledore to know what he's using the forest for.

[Laura]

Yeah, and I, like. I think that's the thing with Hagrid right now. He's so guarded. Hagrid is so guarded right now. He's not letting. He's not letting down the walls. He's not letting the trio or anyone else fully see what's going on with him right now. I do find it interesting thinking about what Dumbledore would have said or told Hagrid to do if Hagrid had just been up front that he had found his brother. I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore would have said, now you gotta leave him there. Like, I think Dumbledore would have tried to help in some way. I don't know if he would have agreed to keeping him in the Forbidden Forest. But, I mean, Dumbledore has done lots of things that we've chronicled here on this show that don't.

[Eric]

You could help Hagrid airlift Grub to a refuge of some sort where he could visit him. Yeah, yeah, I agree, ultimately. So really, the last con I have here is just that. For the whole death thing that goes on. Hagrid states that the bad omen surrounding Thestrals is wrong. They're actually really intelligent, from what we see. He doesn't actually explain or demonstrate the Thestrals is intelligence. So somebody like Parvati Patil, who only knows about Thestrals because of Trelawney talking about them is more inclined to believe that they are, in fact, a bad omen and think that Hagrid has doomed the whole class to something bad. Because even though the Thestrals are right in front of them, again, they can't see them. And if Hagrid's just like, they're going to take Hagrid's word for it, why would they take Hagrid's word for it that they're smart? If you guys ever seen a raven or. What is the word, a raven or, like, a raven show at, like, the Medieval Renaissance Fair or something like that. Like, those birds are brilliant. And they prove it. They show them doing things that are very, very interesting. You're like, wow, how did that ever, you know, occur to me that, like, birds could be that smart? That's what Hagrid should have done. But because he doesn't, I ultimately don't think he threads the needle on this hole. They're not cursed thing. I think, unfortunately, it actually invites more speculation from the Parvati Patil types to be a little bit more nervous.

[Micah]

The one thing, though, that Hagrid does a really good job of throughout his classes is he does find a way to demystify a lot of the stigmas around these creatures. And so I'm more inclined to side with him in this case than I am with somebody like Trelawney. And it is maybe coincidental that we're pitting two professors here against each other that ultimately are going to end up getting sacked from the school because they're not really good at their jobs.

[Andrew]

So let's talk about Umbridge. We've mentioned a couple of times now. She comes in to the class we were talking last week about how Umbridge might be intimidated by Hagrid, having just met him and they're standing in his hut. So maybe that's why she's not pushing the, you know, the questioning, the line of questioning a little more that night anyway. But here during his class, she doesn't seem intimidated at all. She's uttering these negative notes that she's taking out loud. I'm wondering if she feels like she has safety in numbers by having the students around her. It seems clear at this point, Umbridge loves attention. When she has appeared in other classrooms as well. She is also asking the professors questions while they are trying to teach. She is interrupting the lessons. So she's an attention, you know, what do you think she, she, she feels confident in front of Hagrid in this scene because she's surrounded by the students and she gets to taunt him face to face with an audience.

[Eric]

Well, she's getting energy. And it's not just students, it's her future inquisitorial squad. It's the Slytherins again that just love her. And so, yes, I do think she's playing off of them very well. And that could be a big reason why she's not more intimidated by Hagrid.

[Micah]

I do think she almost has a sixth sense about insecurity or weakness. And she can definitely sense that. She probably sensed it after her initial conversation with Hagrid just a few days prior. Prior. And we know that she's likely been filled in on Hagrid as a professor at Hogwarts. The articles that were referenced earlier, the prior experiences that he has going all the way back to his time at Hogwarts with the Chamber of Secrets that likely got out at some point what happened with Buckbeak in Harry's third year. So Hagrid is a known entity and like this whole lesson is a complete clown show for him and she's loving every minute of it. That's. That's the reality of it. And as was said, she can play off of Draco and Pansy and all of the Slytherins and even some of the Gryffindors to some extent. Like she's able to twist Neville's words to her own advantage and I think she's just here for the fun. I'm actually frustrated that she can just show up whenever she wants and interrupt the lesson to Andrew's point earlier. But she's loving every minute of this.

[Eric]

She made up her mind already before setting foot.

[Micah]

Of course she did. But let's be real. She's walking in on a lesson where you can't actually see the lesson. How is that going to work in Hagrid's favorite?

[Eric]

Right, so the cons are pretty steep, y'all.

[Laura]

Yeah, I think Umbridge just didn't get enough attention as a child. Yeah, I'll go with her to anyone else. Yeah, she's very performative, very theatrical, wants.

[Andrew]

All eyes on her and now she's in a school amongst young people, getting old school as a young person.

[Eric]

Yeah, we're actually going to talk about or look into Umbridge's childhood.

[Micah]

Yeah. There's a great Write up on WizardingWorld.com.

[Andrew]

About Harry Potter.com Excuse me.

[Micah]

Harry Potter.com Potter no more. It all redirects but it details her history and the lead up to her time at Hogwarts and what follows. That one quote that I pulled from it just in terms of relating it to her opinions of Hagrid based on the fact that he is half giant she trusts tries to also make out that because of that maybe he's a little bit slow on the uptake. Maybe he's not, you know, as smart as everybody else. But I think a little bit about her childhood shed some light on this. It said even at 17, Dolores was judgmental, prejudiced and sadistic. Although her conscientious attitude, her saccharine manner towards her superiors and the ruthlessness and stealth with which she took credit for other people's work soon gained her advancement. Talking about at the Ministry, I thought it was important to note her brother was a Squib and her mother was a Muggle. Her father was a Ministry official that she eventually disassociated herself from. He worked at the Department of Magical Maintenance and was essentially a janitor and she paid him off to disappear, retire early. So this should give you a sense for Dolores. And it's worth noting that growing up, she for the most part did side with her father because her father was of magical Blood less so with her mother actually blamed her mother for her brother being a squib. And at some point the family split and Dolores stayed with her father and her brother went off to live with her mother. And I'm assuming they never spoke to each other again.

[Eric]

I'm assuming they were a lot happier after that.

[Micah]

They probably were. But yeah, not a great childhood by any stretch it seems like for Dolores but can see how she became the person that we see in order of the phoenix.

[Eric]

Yeah she's made advancement her number one sort of goal and the number one mark of her own sort of success and self worth. Even if she gets those advancements through trickery she doesn't see it that way. She doesn't see it as underhanded. She sees it as doing what she must. So pretty wild. But yeah, ultimately we leave this part of the chapter behind. Hermione sort of has this righteous anger. She sees exactly what Umbridge is doing here and why Umbridge is doing it too. Because she doesn't like half breeds.

[Andrew]

It's tough to read watching Umbridge talk to Hagrid slowly to you know, air quotes, make sure he understands what she is saying. You can understand Hermione's frustration. I think her frustration is also the reader's frustration especially as you get older and read these chapters back.

[Laura]

Yeah, I will say it wasn't like the most ringing endorsement though for her to basically say and that wasn't even that bad for Hagrid, you know. But I understood what she meant of course.

[Eric]

It was just funny. Yeah, yeah. But there's more to come with Hermione a little later on. The one thing Harry is glad for is that there is of course the last Dumbledore's army session of the season tonight which is very exciting in the Room of Requirement. And it's, it just goes well it's a review lesson kind of thing and I think these are very important especially you guys. Remember like we're looking forward to break maybe we're not all that like interested in learning new things.

[Andrew]

Yeah, you kind of got like senioritis. Summer itis all you can think about is the summer break, the winter break, graduating. Yeah, you're kind of checked out.

[Eric]

Yeah. So they kind of do a greatest hits of what they've learned so far and I don't think that any there's anything wrong with that. In fact Neville keeps getting better. Like Harry really sees some marked improvement. Everyone is in good spirits. The room of Requirement was decorated when Harry walked in but he fixed it. And so it's a little less decorated. He took down all the Bobby. Yeah. Shout out to Dobby for that. He took down all the baubles with his face on it. Apparently that say have a hairy Christmas, which I think is hilarious.

[Andrew]

I think it's hilarious too. I'm surprised that didn't really, like, stick within fandom. Like, why isn't there merch that says, like, have a very hairy Christmas or something?

[Laura]

I think that's so cute because they didn't do it in the movie. If they had done it in the movie, there would have been merch.

[Andrew]

Saying that. We should definitely Max that so we can get some merch. I wonder if it's in the. If any Etsy creators have done that.

[Micah]

Yeah, And Luna was a fan too, right? She shows up.

[Eric]

Luna did. Yeah. Luna was the first to arrive, which is very lovely. But. Yeah. So I wanted to talk about the end of this lesson. Of course, when there's a little bit of romance going on, Harry ultimately has his first kiss.

[Andrew]

Hold on, let me go put on some chapstick for this big moment. We'll take a quick break.

[Eric]

How is it going for your first kiss as well, Andrew?

[Andrew]

Yes. Live on mugglecast. We have to drive you into the show. Yeah, yeah.

[Eric]

Take you to a parking garage for your first kiss.

[Andrew]

Wait, why are you saying parking garage?

[Eric]

I'm just saying parking garage. Isn't that where you had your first kiss?

[Andrew]

Yeah. I'm weirded out. You remember that Eric was there. Jesus, what else does he know about it?

[Eric]

We talk. We talk about this on the last episode in which this came up. Okay.

[Andrew]

I was like, cheese. Little update on have a very hairy Christmas merch on Etsy. There is have a very Harry Christmas merch on Etsy, but it's all Harry Styles related, not Harry Potter.

[Micah]

We got to change that.

[Eric]

See, that shows how long they waited. The fact that Harry Styles was first born and then rose to prominence in that whole interweighing time before. And nobody got on the Harry train when it was Harry Potter.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

So here's a quote from the chapter. Ron and Hermione left before he did. He hung back a little because Cho was still there and he was hoping to receive a merry Christmas from her. No, you go on. He heard her say to her friend Marietta, and his heart gave a jolt that seemed to take it in the region of his Adam's apple. He turned and saw Cho standing in the middle of the room, tears pouring down her face.

[Micah]

What?

[Eric]

He didn't know what to do. She was simply standing there Crying silently. What's up? He said feebly. She shook her head and wiped her eyes on her sleeve. I'm sorry, she said thickly. I suppose it's just learning all this stuff. It just makes me wonder whether if he'd known it all, he'd still be alive. Harry's heart sank right past its usual spot and settled somewhere around his navel. He ought to have known she wanted to talk about Cedric. Yeah, so this doesn't quite go as planned for Harry. Let's pour one out. For Harry's would be romantic time in the Rorke.

[Laura]

I mean, I don't know what he's thinking. Her boyfriend just died six months ago.

[Eric]

So this is clear to you, like what Hermione says later.

[Laura]

Like, this makes perfect sense for Cho.

[Eric]

To be in the emotional state that she's in completely.

[Laura]

Is it right that she's putting Harry on the spot in the way that she is? No, but Cho is also a child who is struggling with severe trauma here. So neither one of them is really equipped to deal with this.

[Eric]

Yeah, I honestly think that that's. That's fair. The funny thing about this, and I, at this point reading this, I just find it really amusing because we're going to get to this later, but all First Kiss stories, or quite a lot of them, are probably a little embarrassing to look back on or a little unexpected or they have a surprise element. And so in that way, Harry Potter's First Kiss actually greatly tracks with, I think, the real world counterparts that some of us may have experienced. And for that reason, reading this, I just have to laugh. Like, there's this line. She hiccuped again. She was very pretty even when her eyes were red and puffy, like. Yeah. And Harry can count all the tears on her cheeks as she moves closer. And it's just like, man, this is not. This is not it.

[Laura]

No. First Kiss stories are always awkward and fumbling because you don't know what you're doing. Nobody knows what they're doing. But I think Hollywood and, like, culture kind of builds that moment up. So it puts a lot of pressure on it. And I think that probably contributes to making it awkward. So, yeah, you know, it's a big.

[Andrew]

Moment in your life, though. I mean, you are getting up until that point, right?

[Laura]

Like, yeah, yeah.

[Eric]

What would we do? Okay, if we were Harry, could we rightly say, like, in this scene that we would know any better or do anything different than what he does? I think he says he. Like later, he says he pats her.

[Laura]

On the back yeah, it would have been better to give her a hug, but I get it. It's awkward.

[Eric]

So.

[Andrew]

So I. Let's just be clear about something here. Who actually made the move?

[Micah]

That's what I was gonna ask.

[Andrew]

It ends with, she was much too close. He could see every tear clinging to her eyelashes. Dot, dot, dot, dot.

[Eric]

This is hilarious.

[Andrew]

Then he returned to the common room half an hour later.

[Eric]

It's not Harry. Harry does not make the move because he wishes he weren't. He weren't there.

[Andrew]

Right. That's why I'm thinking it was Cho, too. And the emotions were getting to her. I mean, and. And she is the one that says to Harry, I really like you, Harry. So she is kind of making the first move in that way, too. So if. If. If Cho were getting closer to me while crying, I think I would take a step back or not give her too much time to kiss me, because I'd be like, wait, what's happening here? It'd be one thing if she wasn't crying, but she is.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

I don't want my first kiss to have tears in between our lips.

[Eric]

Yeah. I mean, body language would help. But also, Harry does make for the door, and Cho kind of stops him. It's like, don't go. Wait. Like, I'll be better. But, like, there's. She's nothing to be ashamed of here is the thing. Like, her emotions are valid, but it doesn't make for ultimately a good. Like, they just. I think, to take Laura's perspective, too. Like, I think they both don't have kind of the maturity to really navigate the breadth of what they're both feeling for one another. I think Cho might feel, like, socially, like she has to do this. I mean, it's under the mistletoe, like, that's. There's kind of an obligation. Like she. Or she wants. She wants. I mean, you know, like, it's like double dog dare and mistletoe. You don't ignore them. You just can't do it.

[Andrew]

I don't know if I'd go that far.

[Laura]

Well, the thing is, I think they want to kiss each other. I just think, not under these particular circumstances, but I think Cho is happy for any reason to make a move.

[Eric]

I mean, if it doesn't happen now, when will it happen? I think is the question eventually.

[Micah]

With mistletoe 2. Let's not forget, when Harry first comes into the room, there's mistletoe that Luna points out, and he ducks out of the way because he doesn't want to potentially engage in that situation with her. So that's what leads me to believe that in this instant there's definitely a desire on the part of both of them for this to happen. It's just the circumstances that are not quite right here.

[Andrew]

And it's the best opportunity for them so far. There's feelings in between them right now. They're alone. It's Christmas. Mistletoe. Santa's come in.

[Eric]

It's Nick Frost.

[Andrew]

Despite the tears, they are feeling the romance right now.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

So.

[Laura]

And they're getting ready to go on holiday break too. So they're not going to see each other for like a month.

[Micah]

Yeah. Harry's getting ready to take a bite out of Mr. Weasley.

[Eric]

He's gotta prep. He's gotta get his chapstick. Yeah.

[Micah]

Oh, this was. That's what this was.

[Eric]

This was prep for prep practice, man.

[Andrew]

Did Mr. Weasley cry too, when he was bit? He makes all the. All the boys and girls cry.

[Eric]

Yeah. So I just. I will. We talked about this. We'll talk about it again. I think real life is kind. Real life can be this messy. But back at the Commoner Room, and this is where kind of Hermione shines. Harry's almost catatonic. Harry is back with his friends. He's not sure if he wants to tell them what even happened. But Hermione just had another perception about this. She, I think, guessed that something like this might happen. And she actually knows a lot about Cho's current mental state. And even to the degree where one of the things she tells them is that Cho's worried she's going to get thrown off the Ravenclaw Quidditch team because she's flying poorly. How would Hermione possibly know that much detail about Cho? But it's. It's all there. Hermione leads the charge in explaining what's going on because Heron Ron just don't get it.

[Andrew]

Well, I was going to ask, does Hermione know for sure? Because she's heard through the grapevine. Or maybe she's heard Jo talk about it herself. Like, I don't think she's making a lot of assumptions here necessarily.

[Laura]

No, I think that she's reporting accurately on what's going on. You know, she mentions that Cho's crying a lot in the loo between classes. So there's just a lot of common areas where Hermione could very likely overhear some of that happening. And Hermione, you know, we know that she's someone who pays attention, especially when it has to do with her friends. And she knows that Harry likes Cho, so she's paying attention to what's going on with Cho. We know that she's been paying attention to how much Cho has been paying attention to Harry. So she's been making a point of it. I think she's just been being observant.

[Eric]

Yeah, Ron is here kind of as comedic relief. Like when Harry first admits that Joe is crying, Ron says, were you that bad of a kisser? That's kind of funny.

[Andrew]

I was also impressed by how quickly Ron and Hermione know that something is up with Harry. They can see there's something different with him going on. And Harry internally, he's kind of freaking out himself. So it's probably coming across in his body language. But I think it's speaks to the deep friendship at this stage of the series that Ron and Hermione can quickly pick up that something is off with him.

[Eric]

Also, they fear the worst. They think maybe Umbridge said something or something.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think they probably are always on their guard when it comes to Harry, given his dreams and all that. So, you know, comes with being a friend of Harry to keep a close eye on him.

[Micah]

The one thing I'll say, though is I do think it's somewhat unique that Harry's able to get these two differing perspectives because. And maybe this is just my own experience, but being 15 years old and having a good close friend that is of the opposite sex and is giving you, like, this level of detail and this level of analysis about what's going on just doesn't seem all that common. It would seem much more almost normal to me to get the response that Ron gives in this situation. And that's the kind of feedback that you'd probably get over the course of the next couple of days as you were talking about your experience. So I don't know if anybody feels similarly, but I do think it's interesting that Harry gets really this kind of full range of feedback from two very different individuals.

[Eric]

It's the keys to the kingdom. I think you're right. It's rare. But that shows what a rare friend Hermione is.

[Micah]

I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's different.

[Eric]

Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting point. Well, I wonder if the impetus in writing this really was to have ultimately Hermione weigh in on it like that. That was the idea that in order to tell the story of what's really going on with Harry and Cho, you need Hermione to kind of Deliver that because Cho is not gonna be or Harry's not gonna be emotionally mature enough to explain it. They need a third party in Hermione who' to explain what's going on and what the circumstances are surrounding all of these characters emotional state currently.

[Micah]

And for Cho, she really needs to have somebody supporting her. You know, that's an adult here and that's just not the case. It's clear that she's still very much dealing with the trauma of what happened at the end of the fourth year and she's not getting the support that she needs.

[Eric]

You know, no shade to her head of house. But Flitwick, you know, might have taken her aside at the beginning of the year and said like let's practice cheering charms after hours. You know, the kind of special lessons that would ultimately improve Cho, specifically his mental state. Because you know, this thing that happened to Cedric affected her the most. Like teachers should be taking these students aside and kind of making sure that they're all right in ways that their own peers couldn't.

[Andrew]

In fairness to the faculty at Hogwarts, I'll also add. Where are Jo's parents? What are they doing about this?

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah, I was just kind of wondering what was her summer like? Because just like everyone else she had to go home after that whole ordeal knowing very little about what happened and only having heard Dumbledore's take before she got spoon fed lies from the ministry all summer, just like everyone else really.

[Eric]

The only other thing of note here is that Ron, unfortunately things turned sour between Ron and Hermione. Specifically, he finds out that she this whole time has been writing a letter to Victor. And he's like, you're writing to Victor? Which Victor. And she's like, how many Victors do we know? Victor Crumb, the hot one.

[Andrew]

The one I have a crush on.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

You jealous?

[Eric]

Is this. So Ron takes it awfully and you know, I think he's had a year now, almost a year exactly, to cool off from the whole Yule ball thing. But ultimately he's still threatened by Hermione writing to Victor and it's not a good look on him. You hate to read it.

[Andrew]

You hate to read it.

[Laura]

He's jealous. And he's also clearly kind of surprised that she's still in touch with him. I think learning that she's still in touch with him, the fact that she's only like half engaged in their conversation because she's writing this very lengthy letter to him right in front of Ron, who very clearly would love to get that kind of attention from Hermione. He's just jealous.

[Micah]

And it's happening within the context of the conversation about Harry and choir.

[Laura]

Yeah. And her is aggravated because she's, you know, within the context of this romantic conversation. Ron is putting on full display a complete lack of empathy and like, emotional maturity that you would want to see in someone who you kind of fancy, you know?

[Eric]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's making it worse for his own prospects here by not. But yeah. Yeah.

[Micah]

Part of me still thinks that he doesn't like her from the year prior. Maybe it's just me, but I just don't think Ron. Ron looks back to how Harry was treated by her in year four. And I think that's still part of all of this as Harry's best friend.

[Eric]

Like Hermione, treats Harry poorly.

[Laura]

Oh, you mean choir Cho.

[Eric]

Oh, Cho. Yeah, possibly. Although that's not really anybody's fault either because. And this may be a movie, but like when Harry asked Joe, she's apologetic about the whole thing. Like show. Like Cedric asked her first.

[Laura]

Yeah, that's in the book too. Yeah.

[Micah]

But Ron probably doesn't see it that way.

[Eric]

Yeah, well, Ron knows what Quidditch team Joe prefers. It's just a whole thing they got. I will say, you know, it's funny to see reality distorted a little bit in dreams. I think that this is because we have that huge gap when the kiss actually happens. And my gosh, Rowling does this with Harry and Ginny right after they kiss. There's a huge gap and you don't see what's going on. But the, the insight into Harry's mind might be most clear through his dream. In the dream that Harry has tonight in Gryffindor dormitory, Cho says Harry promised to give her 150 chocolate frog cards for her showing up there. And it's Harry's like freaking out because it's more than he can give. It's more than he has. I'm thinking that Harry's. Harry's starting to think that this is more transactional in nature that he owes. Chose something that is like the too much chocolate frog cards that I can't afford to give you are like things that he doesn't have enough of. You know, whether it's romance or. Is there something to this? Laura, what do you think?

[Laura]

Yeah, I mean, at first I was just going to kind of needle you a little bit and be like, what? Meg doesn't require that you give her 150 chocolate frog cards. Like that.

[Eric]

Just actually she requires a hundred. She requires 150 nature memes every time I kiss her. Yeah, yeah, it's really rough. I'm subscribed to all the groups, like zoological memes for ecological fiends. I'm in all the Facebook groups.

[Laura]

That's really cute.

[Andrew]

I do think maybe after this first kiss, Harry might be second doubting, second thinking this potential relationship or the kiss, like, is this too good to be true? I can't believe this is happening to me. And maybe that's why he's having these transactional type of dreams. Like, what more can I do for Cho? What do I owe her? That type of thing.

[Laura]

He's building it up way too much. Like Hermione literally just suggested to him, hey, when are you gonna ask to take her out on a date? Right. That's the obvious next step if they want to continue seeing each other in this way. But he, it's very clear. He. Much like Hagrid, actually, he has not really thought ahead about, like, what he would do if Cho were to reciprocate his feelings.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

So now he's kind of like, oh, what do I do? And this is manifesting in his dream through these, like, really outlandish representations of Cho demanding things from him.

[Eric]

I like that a lot. That's really. And that's in that way. Harry under prepared.

[Laura]

Yeah. I mean, he's 15, you know. Yeah.

[Eric]

But like, if you fantasize about something, you would think you prepare a little bit better for it. Right?

[Laura]

I get. I mean, I don't know, I just think back to being. I think back to getting, like, having my first kiss and like, what that experience was like. And there's really no preparing for it. Not really.

[Eric]

Like, fair enough.

[Laura]

You know, we're gonna.

[Eric]

I can't wait to ask you guys what your first kiss was about. Which is coming.

[Laura]

Oh, but okay.

[Eric]

Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, then there's one other dream Harry has. I. I debated whether we should cover it on this chapter. Discussion. Something about a snake and some man. He's a little tired.

[Andrew]

Some man?

[Eric]

Some man. Just some guy. Ron's dad, I guess. Yeah. Apparently Harry bites Ron's dad or something.

[Laura]

The way that Harry kind of like presents the happenings of the dream, you can tell he's like in real time trying to get grips on the fact that, like, he was the snake in the dream.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Laura]

He's trying to be truthful, but at the same time, Dean and Seamus are standing right there and they already kind of think he's crazy. So he's like, I bit no, the snake bit him.

[Eric]

Yeah, but the more he does that, the less realistic it sounds like it really happened. It's a perfect catch 22.

[Andrew]

What really struck me about the end of the chapter, though, in this scene is that McGonagall does come in and immediately believes what Harry is saying. And that is so refreshing after Harry's been ignored by Dumbledore, after students at Hogwarts aren't too sure of Harry's story. Here is somebody who immediately believes him and is going to take action on this information.

[Eric]

McGonagall's seen some crazy sh in her time and this sounds like that brand of crazy.

[Andrew]

I loved that self censor. I think I just heard.

[Eric]

Oh, yes, yes, you did. It was a self censor.

[Micah]

We would believe, though, that she would know who is on guard duty.

[Eric]

Yeah, that's the other element.

[Micah]

And this is also another Horcrux connection that we're privy to. In Order of the Phoenix. Obviously we don't find out about Horcruxes until the next book, but the whole idea that Harry could literally be inside of Nagini as she's attacking Arthur. Yeah, I mean, talk about going from one crazy dream to the next. I mean, you were just having to give away 150 chocolate frog cards. Now you're a lot inside of the head of a venomous snake attacking your best friend's dad. What kind of lipstick did Cho have on?

[Eric]

Yeah. Or what did you eat at dinner that made you. Well, there's this psychic transference too, because Harry's retching this whole time too. So Nagini had a feast and Harry's throwing up. That's crazy. That's like a really crazy. Scary, awful, but kind of cool from a connection standpoint. Physiological effect of the Horcrux connection.

[Micah]

It's just McGonagall. It's just about time that somebody went to an authority figure for Harry. It's Neville, right? Neville's the one who goes to get McGonagall.

[Eric]

Yeah, Neville gets McGonagall.

[Micah]

But we've been talking about needing to go to Dumbledore. Needing to go to McGonagall at multiple junctures of this book so far. And Harry just consistently refuses, refuses, refuses. And now finally, he's going to come face to face with Dumbledore for the first time since the summer.

[Andrew]

Ooh, what's up? Long time no see, my guy.

[Eric]

Is this going to be a huge confrontation in the left corner? I can't wait for this next chapter. But we're not going to be Getting to it next week. We have other things coming our way.

[Andrew]

Next Week is our 700th episode, so it'll be a Muggle mail episode. And we might have a guest on a particular email.

[Eric]

Just came into our inbox. Right.

[Andrew]

Oh, were you all cc'd on that? Good. So I don't have to reenter.

[Eric]

Yeah, I forgot. So, anyway, inside baseball.

[Micah]

But it's baseball season, as you can see.

[Eric]

Hey. Opening day for the Sox, I think, was today. Oh, that's why you're wearing the pinstripes.

[Micah]

Yeah, it's a Mets jersey, not a Yankees jersey. Don't get to see by the top of the. Oh, okay.

[Eric]

Okay. So, wrapping up the chapter discussion. What is. Guys, the best jab between Ron and Hermione in this chapter, they kind of go at it.

[Andrew]

When Hermione says to Ron, you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune fortune to meet.

[Micah]

That's rough.

[Eric]

Pretty brutal, but not untrue. When she sasses Ron, how many other victors do we know? I really like that.

[Micah]

How to stick up for my guy Ron, when he says, you think a bit of kissing would cheer up?

[Laura]

And I had to give it to Hermione. Not for a statement. Y'all actually got all the best jabs, I think. But really for Hermione's open disdain and disgust for Ron throughout this conversation. It's so that energy is palpable in the way this is written. And I remember every time I read this, I so resonate with her because I'm like, girl, I've been there where I'm, like, having a conversation with one or more people who are maybe a little bit emotionally obtuse, and I'm just, like, trying to lead the horse to water. And it can be very frustrating. So I. Yeah, Hermione, I feel you.

[Eric]

Yeah. Anyone who's ever had to do emotional labor because of some dumb boy.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Thank you for your service.

[Laura]

Not all heroes wear capes.

[Eric]

Yeah, exactly. So we asked, and I think that we're going to be getting to. Whoever's willing can tell the story of their first kiss. But first, let's hear from our Lynx line members. People who are on our Patreon and were asked this question. This chapter. Harry has his first kiss. Does not exactly go as he planned. Do you have a particularly awkward or disastrous first kiss story or one that, looking back on, you still feel kind of odd about? And here were the answers people gave.

[Andrew]

Kayla B. Said, yes, I will consider it pretty bad. My first kiss was with A guy I regret dating at the time, but I was a young teenager and didn't know much about dating. Our first kiss was a French kiss, and it grosses me out to this day.

[Laura]

Oh, yeah, that's not good if you're not. If you don't know what you're doing.

[Andrew]

That would be with tongue, I guess. Is that a French kiss?

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We heard from Shannon, who was very brief in her reply. Middle school, we both had braces.

[Micah]

Oh, no.

[Eric]

Enough said. I'm just picturing guys. I'm picturing the rubber bands from one brace, like, get caught. Oh, oh, oh. It's too devastating to think about for any longer.

[Micah]

Robert P. Says, the first time I kissed my now husband, he dropped me off at my house and I planted a very drunk kiss on him. He would later tell me the kiss was so bad he had to ensure that another one happened.

[Andrew]

Sure. I think it was good. He just wanted more. But that's a good way to get somebody to kiss you again.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Can we redo that? That's what Cho should have said to Harry or Harry should have said to Cho.

[Laura]

Yeah, like, can I get a redo?

[Andrew]

Can I get a redo on the first kiss? No tears. No tears. Side of.

[Micah]

Tears of joy. Tears of happiness.

[Laura]

Stephanie says, I was working at a country club the summer before college and met a very hunky Bulgarian who was working there for the summer as well. He kissed me at the end of the summer. It was all tongue and I freaked out and ran off and we never talked again.

[Eric]

I'm only laughing because they freaked out and ran off. I thought Bulgarians only happened in fiction.

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah, I know.

[Andrew]

That's too perfect for a Harry Potter podcast.

[Eric]

Oh, man.

[Andrew]

Rachel S. Said, I was on a second date with a guy and he kissed me. I hadn't been expecting it and wasn't sure I wanted him missing me and sort of just stood there. After he pulled away, he told me I was a great kisser, sir. I literally did nothing. We didn't have any more dates.

[Eric]

Yeah. Compliment kisses when they're not expected, compliments when they're not due. These are some of the the easy things to get wrong when you're young. Barry says, I had no idea how to make out, but as a kid, I had read Hulk Hogan's autobiography. Hulk Hogan's autobiography that people were supposed to use tongues with that handlebar mustache. Okay. Needless to say, my first kiss was a bit surprised and said, you use a lot of tongue. I then confessed my ignorance and exp and inexperience. And she said the amazing words. That's okay. I'll teach you. Talking about a happy development. That's adorable, Andrew. We need that as like a saved canned sound effect. That's. That's really cute.

[Micah]

Stephanie says my first kiss with a guy I dated in high school was awful. He used tongue and was so slobbery when I mentioned it in the nicest way I could. He gaslighted me into thinking I was a bad kisser. My subsequent kisses later in life with other men were nothing like that. So clearly it was on him.

[Eric]

That's empirical evidence for sure. Also, Barry commented on this quote.

[Micah]

Barry chimed in.

[Eric]

Yeah, Barry chimed in and said despite his story, he was not this guy in Stephanie N's story. And Stephanie also confirmed that. So glad for that.

[Laura]

Yeah. Thank you for confirming.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Charlotte says my first kiss was horrific. I still cringe. It was outside a movie theater. I was anticipating something gentle, but his technique was so tongue and slobber centric that I had to wipe my face after. Ew. All I remember is tongue. I thought to myself, no way. That's what this is supposed to be like. As if that isn't bad enough, he was wearing full length working man overalls. Even though he is a city boy with a desk job. No. Hate to overalls under more appropriate circumstances.

[Andrew]

Maybe he wanted to be comfortable for the movie.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Finally, Carly said. My husband and I were hiking the Appalachian Trail with a group from the camp where we worked. We were snuggled up for warmth in a trail shelter overnight and we ended up kissing for the first time. I got freaked out by the feelings. So the next day I said something like, okay, first of all, don't touch me. Needless to say, he was startled and confused. But it all worked out in the end. I just needed time to figure things out. We've been married almost as long as mugglecast has existed. 18 years since September.

[Eric]

Aww.

[Andrew]

Happy anniversary, Carly.

[Laura]

Coming up, after all this time, I.

[Eric]

Think the biggest takeaways here are don't do too much too soon. Start with a peck, maybe.

[Micah]

And a lot less charm.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

A lot of tongue stories.

[Eric]

Yeah. Yeah. So listen, I under.

[Andrew]

We have a.

[Eric]

We have a few teenagers who listen to this podcast. We know a couple of 12, 13 year olds who might have their first kiss sometime within the next three or four years. And you know, let's just say take.

[Andrew]

Note in terms of our own stories. Like Eric, you said I shared on the previous episode, but I guess I will say that was my first Guy kiss. My first girl kiss was in middle school with my girlfriend of a week, Kendall. We were literally just a week. We were boyfriend and girlfriend. I can't remember the situation, why we got together or broke up, but she had braces.

[Micah]

It was her fault.

[Andrew]

I never did. My parents didn't love me enough to give me braces, but she had braces. Yeah, it wasn't a great first kiss, but when are they. There were no tears though, so at least there's that.

[Eric]

Yeah, there were any tears during mine. It was actually pitch black. It was at a girl's house. I was staying over with her parents. We met through Harry Potter and it was just late afternight. We had already said good night, but we came back out to I guess say goodnight again and a kiss happened and then we kind of just smiled and went back to bed. Now the. The only thing that was awkward about this is we never had a conversation afterwards about what that kiss meant.

[Andrew]

Oh, no.

[Eric]

So. So like, you know, it was nice and it was nice in the moment, but we never like followed. We both never followed up on it. So I don't know. That's the weird part. It's like childhood and I don't know, these things happen.

[Laura]

Yeah, well. And after a certain amount of time passes too. You're like, I don't even remember. Anyway, kind of like what Andrew was talking about. Mine was with my middle school boyfriend. I was 13 and we were preparing for like an end of the school year party at my parents house and it just kind of happened while we were preparing the basement for all of our friends to come over for the party. And I mean, I don't really remember whether it was. I don't have strong impressions of it. Like I didn't walk. I didn't walk away from it being like, oh, that was amazing or oh, that was weird. It just was a first kiss.

[Eric]

You're one of the lucky ones, Laura.

[Laura]

Yeah, I. From hearing all these stories today, I agree.

[Eric]

And Micah, maybe it'll happen someday for you.

[Micah]

Well, it did in a parking garage, right, Andrew?

[Eric]

Oh.

[Laura]

Oh, I see.

[Andrew]

Yeah. That was Micah giggling earlier, by the way. He was thinking about our first. No, Micah, we're not letting you off the hook. First kiss. Go.

[Micah]

Yeah, so it was definitely in high school. One of my friends was driving myself and this girl Crystal back to her house. She didn't live in our town here on Long island. And yeah, it just kind of happened. Basically made out in the backseat of his car as he was chauffeuring her back home.

[Andrew]

So do you remember the song that was playing?

[Micah]

I don't.

[Andrew]

I believe in a thing called Love. Man, I would do anything for love.

[Laura]

Being a teenager is so awkward, y'all.

[Eric]

It really is.

[Andrew]

It really, really is.

[Eric]

There's a few moments on the show, this chapter being one of them, in which we can appreciate just how awkward and weird it can get. Anyway, don't forget that you too listener can participate in the links line every week by becoming a patron [e-mail] mugglecast and if you have feedback about today's discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded to your phone or on your phone to mugglecastmail.com our next muggle Mail episode is upon us. It's going to be next week, episode 700 the Mailbag spectacular and celebrating 20 years and 700 episodes of Harry Potter Podcasting.

[Andrew]

Oh yeah. Before we get to Quizzage, check out our other weekly podcasts, what the Hype and Millennial for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. Plus Pam in our latest episode of what the Hype, Pam, Eric and I are reviewing Sunrise on the Reaping the new Hunger Games spin off book. It was really good. We analyzed and covered the entire book in an hour. It was a fast paced, excellent conversation, so don't miss that after you read Sunrise on the Reaping yourself.

[Micah]

Can I add one thing too? Laura and I have been doing reaction videos over on the what the Hype YouTube channel and Twitch for the latest episodes of the White Lotus. So as soon as those episodes are over, Lauren and I are sitting down and reacting and it's been a lot of fun.

[Eric]

I'm trying to catch up guys. I just finished season two finale. Season two finale was a doozy, so I'm getting on season three ASAP and.

[Andrew]

Over a Millennial we are sharing how everyday Muggles are using ChatGPT and other fascinating AI tools to improve their lives. Wanted to hear how our listeners are using these tools. Now it's time for Quizzage.

[Eric]

This week's quizit questions in the English fairy tale Jack and the Beanstalk. Jack, who later meets a husband and wife that are giants, trades what to obtain a handful of magic beans. The correct answer that we were looking for was the family cow. And it turns out we were not looking for the answer a frigging cow. Which is somebody suggested, but I counted it because I was. That's kind of funny. 86% of people who answered correctly said they didn't look it up. And this week's winners are as follows. A healthy breeze. Buff Daddy Collide Snowman Carly Dftba Granger. I hardly know her. Hagrid's Dragon Steak Dinner. Hermione's bushy, bushy Hair. I'm counting down the days to the end of Lent when I can listen again and find out if you read my name again. Put your name Kennedon Lestranger Things Leviosa Lowkey just did a play about this. Lydia Loves MC Milky White Moocow Don't Bother Me Patronus Seeker Port Kimi to Caramel by the Sea. Ravenpuff from Sweden Super Ravenclaw. The bagpipes that play at the Quidditch World Cup. There are giants in the Sky. Tofu Tom and Umbridge's Minus Aura. Wow. Lot of entries. Here is next week's Quizzage question. Capable of reaching a length of roughly 19ft and weighing around 28 pounds, what is the largest known venomous snake species in the world? Ooh, there's another movie about it, right?

[Micah]

Maybe there's an actor who was in Fantastic Beasts.

[Eric]

Venomous is the key to that correct answer, by the way.

[Laura]

Ah, all right.

[Eric]

Venomous. Largest venomous snake species. So submit your answer to us on the quizzitch form located on the Mugglecast website mugglecast.comquizzitch or if you're on the website checking out transcripts or must listens page or something else over there, click on Quizzic from the main nav.

[Andrew]

Don't Forget to visit patreon.com mugglecast to support us. Also, please leave us a review in your favorite podcast app and owl a friend about the show. If you think your Harry Potter friends could use some more Harry Potter friends in their lives. Thanks everyone for listening. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

Bye, everyone.

[Laura]

Bye bye.