Bella! My Loca! (OOTP Chapter 36, The Only One He Ever Feared)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: MuggleCast – "Bella! My Loca!" (OOTP Chapter 36, The Only One He Ever Feared)

Podcast: MuggleCast: The Harry Potter Re-Read Podcast
Hosts: Andrew, Eric, Micah, Laura
Episode Date: August 26, 2025
Discussed Chapter: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, Chapter 36 ("The Only One He Ever Feared")

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Episode Overview

This episode of MuggleCast dives into the pivotal events of Order of the Phoenix's Chapter 36, "The Only One He Ever Feared," focusing on the emotional aftermath of Sirius Black's death, Harry's confrontation with Bellatrix Lestrange, and the legendary duel between Dumbledore and Voldemort. The hosts reflect on character motivations, magical mechanics, narrative symbolism, and TV adaptation hopes, with a lively, thoughtful, and characteristically irreverent tone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Harry Potter TV Show News & Weasley Family Casting

• [01:19] TV Show Updates: The new castings for the Weasley family were revealed:
  • Tristan Harland as Fred, Gabriel Harland as George, Rory Spooner as Percy, Gracie Cochran as Ginny, with Alistair Stout as Ron.
    • "They're very redheads. They're very cute. They look like a family… It's really nice." – Eric (02:10)
  • Chris Rankin (film Percy) passed the "baton" to the new Percy.
• [03:17] Despite some characters not appearing until later books, the hosts speculate that castings for Arthur, Charlie, and Bill are likely completed.
• [04:49] Fun speculation about which "book only" characters will be introduced in the TV show and bets on Peeves.

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Chapter Analysis: Aftermath of Sirius’s Death

Harry’s Grief and Pursuit of Bellatrix

• [10:04] The chapter opens on Harry’s shock and devastation:
  • "Harry comes to the horrific realization that Sirius really ain't coming out from behind that curtain. He is well and truly dead, as they say." – Laura
  • Harry’s immediate pursuit of Bellatrix is out of vengeance.
• [10:56] The Rotunda room’s exit puzzle:
  • Discovery that shouting "what's the way out?" opens the door, sparking debate on whether this was always possible or a high-stress magical anomaly.
  • "Maybe it's only for the exit, right? ... If you already figured your way in, they should throw you a bone and let you get out easily enough." – Andrew (11:18)
• [12:44] Security features of the Department of Mysteries—ease of exit may be intentional to prevent trap situations.
• [13:35] Debate: Did Harry’s willpower or possibly Voldemort's remote influence open the way? Or do only adults know the secret to the exit? The hosts settle on user-friendly magical architecture.

Lupin’s Grief & Heroism

• [16:11] Lupin’s deep pain is recognized, as he has lost his best friend.
  • "Lupin does everything in his power to prevent Harry from following Sirius through the veil… speaks volumes of his character." – Micah
• [17:25] Lupin not only comforts Harry but helps Neville by lifting his leg curse.

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Showdown in the Atrium: Harry, Bellatrix, and the Unforgivable Curse

• [17:55] Harry produces a weak but real Crucio on Bellatrix. Bellatrix taunts Harry for lacking the intent to torture:
  • "'You have to mean it…You need to really want to cause pain… righteous anger won’t hurt me for long.'" – (19:17)
• [19:58] Debate on whether Harry could have managed a true Crucio out of rage or lack of maturity and emotional clarity.
• [20:57] Speculation: If Harry had succeeded, would the Ministry have punished him for an Unforgivable Curse, considering their anti-Harry bias?
• [21:25] Timeline confusion: How did Harry reach the atrium before Dumbledore?
  • Theory: Harry's rage propelled him faster; Dumbledore may hesitantly allow Harry to confront his trauma, possibly to see Voldemort's behavior.

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Dumbledore’s Role: Protector or Manipulator?

• [23:43] Dumbledore's decision not to stop Harry is questioned:
  • "It feels irresponsible. You know what it gives? It gives Sorcerer's Stone vibes." – Eric
• [25:00] Is Dumbledore looking for a Horcrux test, noticing the connection between Harry and Voldemort?
  • "Maybe he's starting to really put together the Horcrux theory…testing the waters here…" – Laura (25:06)
• [26:07] The hosts ultimately label Dumbledore's hands-off approach as manipulative or strategic at best, careless at worst.

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Deeper Dive: The Bellatrix & Voldemort Relationship

• [28:08] Eric raises three textual clues suggesting a deeper, possibly romantic connection (Cursed Child tie-in):
  1. Bellatrix learned the Dark Arts via personal tutelage from Voldemort.
  2. Voldemort calls her "Bella" ([30:23]), an informality he doesn't grant others.
     • "This alone I think could do it because that's an informal version of her name. We don't ever see Voldemort…using an informal name with his followers." – Eric
  3. Voldemort risks exposure to save Bellatrix at the end of the duel—an uncharacteristically sentimental act.
     • "You're really going to come back to rescue a Death Eater? Voldemort's not supposed to care about his Death Eaters." – Eric (34:48)
• [33:10] Discussion: Is Bellatrix unique as the only female Death Eater? Does Voldemort feel “duty” to propagate his bloodline?
  • "I could totally see Voldemort being one of these, like, eugenics bros..." – Laura
• [36:03] Counterpoint: Perhaps it's pure loyalty or strategic necessity, but the hosts agree that Voldemort’s actions are unusual.

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Symbolism of the Fountain of Magical Brethren

• [38:02] Laura analyzes the destruction of the Fountain of Magical Brethren as a symbol of shifting wizard/non-human relations:
  • The witch and wizard statues protect Harry and Bellatrix, while centaur, goblin, and house elf play supportive roles or lose limbs.
• [39:34] The decapitation of the wizard statue protecting Harry foreshadows Dumbledore’s own death (Laura).
  • "An omen of Dumbledore's coming death."
• [40:24] Bellatrix pinned by the witch statue (later killed by Molly—neat parallel).
• [41:09] Disabled centaur may represent centaurs’ reduced power or foreshadow their eventual alliance.
• [42:41] Amusing point: Should we read the goblin and house elf’s applause for Dumbledore as the host’s own ego or as magical programming?
• [46:27] Micah suggests the statue’s destruction signals the "reset" needed for magical unity.

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Dumbledore versus Voldemort: The Legendary Duel

• [49:22] The duel is acknowledged as epic but, in both book and movie, presented like a Pokémon battle—turn-based, flashy spells.
• [52:32] Hopes for the TV adaptation to choreograph more inventive and immersive magical combat, possibly using environmental elements as in the books.
• [53:12] High hopes for improvements inspired by recent video games and new choreography talent.

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Harry’s Possession, Love’s Power, and The Turning Point for the Ministry

• [54:50] Voldemort briefly possesses Harry, but the memory of Sirius, even in loss, pushes Voldemort out.
  • "The fact that the loss of Sirius is so fresh...yet him thinking of him immediately conjures these positive emotions, throws Voldemort completely off." – Micah (56:03)
• [57:31] Noted foreshadowing: "Kill me" is echoed by both Voldemort (through Harry) and Dumbledore (in the next book).
• [58:33] The "he’s back!" moment: Fudge’s realization of Voldemort’s return is succinct and dramatic—a fitting capstone to years of denial.
  • "…scene in the movie shows that he really kind of is surprised by it. And it forces his hand to then…acknowledge it and be like, okay." – Eric (58:46)
• [59:58] Dumbledore quickly, authoritatively takes charge, time-boxes Fudge, and reasserts his role as the real leader in the room.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Bellatrix's Crucio Lesson:
  "You have to mean them, Potter, you need to really want to cause pain...righteous anger won't hurt me for long." – Bellatrix (19:17)

• On Dumbledore's Nickname for Bellatrix:
  "Voldemort refers to her as Bella… this alone… makes the Cursed Child twist canon to me." – Eric (30:25)

• On the Pokémon Battle Analogy:
  "We've made fun of this scene in the movie for years for being like a Pokémon battle. And… that's what happens." – Laura (50:29)

• On the Power of Love:
  "The fact that the loss of Sirius is so fresh…immediately conjures these positive emotions, throws Voldemort completely off." – Micah (56:03)

• On Fudge’s Revelation:
  "He’s back!”
  The hosts note it's mostly a filmism, but it captures the shock and forced admission embodied in the moment (58:33).

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Notable Timestamps

• [01:19–05:00] TV Show casting update
• [09:12] Start of Chapter discussion (OOTP 36)
• [10:04] Harry confronts Sirius's death; chase after Bellatrix
• [16:11] Lupin restrains Harry, grieves Sirius
• [17:55] Harry vs. Bellatrix, Crucio scene
• [19:58] Ministry and use of Unforgivables debate
• [22:57] Dumbledore’s actions and intentions (Horcrux hints)
• [28:08–37:32] Bellatrix & Voldemort analysis (“Bella!” “Loca!”)
• [38:02–47:27] Symbolism of Fountain of Magical Brethren
• [49:22] Atrium duel and possession scene analysis
• [58:33] "He’s back!" – Fudge’s pivotal line
• [61:43] MVP of the Dumbledore/Voldemort battle

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Listener Interaction & Fun Segments

• MVP of the Battle:
  • Andrew picks Dumbledore; Eric, Bellatrix; Micah, Fawkes; Laura, Dumbledore’s “hype gang” (the house elf and goblin).
• TV Adaptation Hopes:
  Listeners and hosts discuss iconic scenes they most want to see adapted, including Neville’s heroism, Bellatrix’s Crucio lesson, and the living fountain ([63:34]).

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Closing Thoughts

The episode combines deep literary analysis, wry commentary, headcanons, and adaptation hopes, showcasing why MuggleCast remains a vibrant fan community. The hosts expertly blend humor with earnestness, ensuring fans of all levels find both insight and entertainment.

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Transcript

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[Andrew]

Welcome to mugglecast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

And the four of us are your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show. So make sure you press that follow button in your favorite podcast app, and that way you'll never miss an episode with your Pacha people. And this week we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 36. The only one he ever feared that would be Albus Dumbledore. Thank you very much. I mentioned the TV show. We do have a bit of a update there. The Harry Potter TV show has revealed who will be playing some of the Weasley family. Tristan Harland is going to play Fred Weasley. Gabriel Harland is going to play George Weasley. Rory Spooner is Percy, and Gracie Cochran is Ginny. Any thoughts on these? We got a cute selfie of them with the actor who's playing Ron, who is Alistair Stout.

[Eric]

They're very redheads. Yeah, they're. They're very cute. They look like a family. I'm glad to see a picture of them bonding. I've seen comments that are like, this is exactly how I pictured them on my head in the books. And, you know, it's really nice. What I loved about this the most, though, and is that Chris Rankin had a really sweet story mention of this where he Talked about it being 25 years since his casting and that yesterday, you know, these other Weasleys, another Percy was cast and he said, so the baton is passed. And that was really lovely.

[Andrew]

That is sweet.

[Micah]

It is great to see the Weasley family starting to come together. I know we got the casting for Molly not that long ago, but we're still lacking a few of the Weasley clan. Charlie, Bill, Arthur. I know none of them really make an appearance till earliest Chamber of Secrets. But given that we got some characters already confirmed that are in Chamber of Secrets like Malfoy and Fudge, can we expect an Arthur casting in the not too distant future?

[Andrew]

I imagine all these people are already cast because they have the screen test against one another and all that, so. And they've got a lot of people to reveal, so I think they're kind of just taking their time. My theory as to why they released these Weasley castings now is maybe they are going to be filming some public Kings Cross scenes in the weeks ahead and maybe they want to get out ahead of that. That's my best guess though.

[Laura]

Yeah. I mean, they're going to have to do Charlie for the first season, are they not? I mean, for the whole.

[Eric]

Well, his friends show up, right? But not.

[Laura]

Oh, that's right. It's not him. It's.

[Eric]

I want the casting announcement for Charlie's friends from Roman yet. Give it now. I've been waiting.

[Andrew]

Everybody but Charlie.

[Micah]

Eric, that's. I wanted to ask, who do we think is going to be the first cast member that we get that did.

[Eric]

Not arrested for marijuana use? Sorry. That's so funny. What was that?

[Micah]

That did not appear in the Harry Potter movies. Which character are we going to get?

[Eric]

Ooh, this is something we could put money on.

[Andrew]

We could, yeah, put some galleons on it.

[Eric]

It should be peeves, but I'm not betting on peeves.

[Micah]

And did we get a Piers Pulchus in Sorcerer's Stone?

[Eric]

Well, there. No, but there have been that. That may already be because I've seen him in promo or like, who do.

[Micah]

We get officially though, not just in paparazzi photos? Yeah, we should maybe think about putting some galleons down on that.

[Andrew]

It could be a good bonus Muggle cast. So what characters from the books that didn't make it into the movies are going to first come into going to be officially announced for the TV show? That's. That's the question.

[Micah]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Okay. Ludo. No, that's too late.

[Micah]

That's too way too late. Yeah.

[Eric]

That's way too late.

[Andrew]

Peeves is a good guess.

[Eric]

Yeah, if they can think on that.

[Andrew]

Maybe do a bonus Muggle cast around it or something.

[Eric]

Yeah, interesting.

[Andrew]

But yeah, those are the latest developments there. Cute photo of the gang, like Eric said. And stay tuned. And we'll be covering the TV show as things develop. Before we get to chapter by chapter, we want to remind everybody that this year's physical gift exclusively for Slug Club patrons is here. It's the Mugglecast 20th anniversary retrospective yearbook. This is a real book featuring writing by each of the four hosts telling the story of the podcast across these last 20 years. We have lots of behind the scenes looks at the show across these two decades, including tons of original writing, never before seen photos. It's a treasure trove of archival material. This is a really special gift. We've never put a book together, so that's been really exciting. We wanted to do something really special for this milestone achievement. And so we've put a ton of time into creating something that we really think you'll enjoy flipping through and cherishing for the next 20 years. And since this is a yearbook, we will also be sending you a book plate that is hand signed by all four of us. And then you could take this and place it wherever you want in the yearbook. Recently, Eric showed us at a recent meeting the Jamie's British jokes page. It has every single Jamie's British joke of the week in it and it's really cool. It's just, you know, there's little touches like that across the yearbook y' all are really going to like. This is a gift that goes out to Slug Club patrons and we send you a new physical gift every year. So go to patreon.com mugglecast and pledge at the Slug Club level to receive the yearbook. The deadline to pledge to receive the yearbook is September 15th and we will be be off next week because of the Labor Day holiday. So don't delay. Jump in now. Join the Patreon now. And, and, and, and as everybody knows, to celebrate our 20th anniversary for the whole month of August, we are also offering a 20% discount off an annual subscription to our Patreon. We have never offered a discount this large before. This offer ends at the end of August, so please don't delay. Go to patreon.com mugglecast pledge now you can use the promo code 20 years, 20 years at checkout. Also, by default the discount should be 20% so you don't even have to worry about the promo code.

[Eric]

And Andrew, since You mentioned the joke compendium. Let's tell a British joke. How do you feel about that?

[Andrew]

Oh, do you have one ready for us?

[Eric]

I have one ready for you. What is the most common owl in Britain?

[Micah]

A.

[Andrew]

A.

[Micah]

You have to at least say it in a British accent.

[Eric]

Yeah, I can't.

[Laura]

Oh, yeah.

[Eric]

It already exists in a British accent and I couldn't possibly.

[Micah]

We should have played it. We should have clipped it.

[Eric]

Okay, I didn't get the clips. I just pulled the transcript words. Micah. Jeez, heckling me. The most common owl in Britain is a teat owl. As in a tea towel.

[Andrew]

Huh.

[Eric]

Is that one gonna be included in the yearbook?

[Andrew]

I think we need to call it all that bad.

[Eric]

And that one's definitely in the yearbook. Yeah, it's basically the most British joke ever. Uh, but they're all in there. There's. There are 60 jokes that were told.

[Andrew]

Patrons who received the yearbook. Maybe you should go through each one and kind of like rate them on a scale of 1 to 5 stars and then let us know. Send a picture.

[Eric]

Yeah, we won't spoil it. But the pages are very recognizable in the yearbook. So you could also read just like one a day to improve your mental health. Or, you know, keep the bookmark in there or something. Just open to it whenever you want. It's going to be a good opportunity.

[Laura]

We can pass the ratings on to Jamie 20 years later.

[Andrew]

Hurt his feelings.

[Eric]

What people think of all your stack.

[Laura]

Rank to your British jokes.

[Andrew]

Oh, tonight you didn't like my jokes. Patreon.com Mogulcast Please don't delay. This is the time to become a patron. And you get tons of other benefits too, besides the physical gift. We do a lot on our Patreon. We do time for chapter by chapter. And this week we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 36. The only one he ever felt feared.

[Eric]

We last discussed this chapter on Mocast 473, which is called Dumbledore v. Voldemort. Sounds like a court case that was released July 14, 2020. Three turns should do it, I think. What the. Episode 473.

[Andrew]

This was also a tearjerker moment though. Just reading this line from Neville. Harry, I'm really sorry. Was that man. Was Sirius Black a friend of yours?

[Micah]

Was that the man that stole the password list from me back in year three?

[Eric]

That bastard. I'm glad he's gone.

[Micah]

Broke into Gryffindor Tower and scared the crap out of all of us.

[Andrew]

How could he be a friend of yours?

[Micah]

Yeah, Mysterious thing time.

[Laura]

Wow. Well, what a setup for the start of this chapter where Harry comes to the horrific realization that Sirius really ain't coming out from behind that curtain. He is well and truly dead, as they say. And because of this, Harry immediately decides to bolt after Bellatrix, yelling that he's going to kill her. And something that really stuck out to me about this first sequence was Harry ran into the Rotunda room trying to chase her. She had already gone through a door and the room had already spun around and reset itself. And Harry in desperation, just yells out, what's the way out? And the door to the atrium just popped open.

[Andrew]

This way, this way, this way.

[Laura]

Could they have done this the entire time?

[Eric]

Ah, maybe. Maybe it's only for the exit, right? Because that's it. You feel like you go into a government building, you're on your way to like traffic court or something. Oops, wrong turn. Department of Mysteries. How. Where's the exit? How do I. You know, the second you close the door, the room rotates. You're like, oh God.

[Andrew]

If you already figured your way in, figured out your way in, they should throw you a bone and let you get out easily enough.

[Eric]

Maybe that's it. But like you said, like I. We didn't. There was no indication that this was a voice activated room right the first time. And then there's. There's also this indicator that like, or situation where they didn't exactly know the name of the room they were going to because they didn't know it was the hall of Prophecy. They knew there were a lot of glass orbs or a room of shiny things. I think Harry's literally, we're looking for the room with shiny things. So if it is voice activated in the Rotunda, they wouldn't have been able to ask, can you show us the hall of Prophecy to even test this theory?

[Laura]

Right. But I guess I'm thinking like, could Harry have tried to say, where's Sirius? And like, obviously it wouldn't have worked because Sirius wasn't there.

[Eric]

But no, you would hear a game show kind of thing or been like, run.

[Andrew]

Turn around. Run. He's not here. Run.

[Micah]

I do like the idea that for security purposes you can get out if you need to, especially in a place like the Department of Mysteries where presumably you're not supposed to be there unless you have the appropriate credentials. And Dumbledore's army certainly is not a group that has the appropriate credentials to be there. So I do like that idea that if you need to get out, the Department of Mysteries will let you out.

[Andrew]

Yeah, they don't want you stuck in there. Why would they want you stuck in there?

[Eric]

It's like how you summon the night buses. You just throw your wand arm up. You know, it seems very like user friendly for those situations where you're really in it as a wizard. But the alternative here, because if this, if the room is not wired to do this, then Harry is using some kind of special magic without realizing that he's using very special magic. You know, he's frustrated, he's gone through, I think, pretty much all of the emotions. And he says, where's the exit? That's obviously not the incantation to open the door, but we've seen this before where in high stress, wizards can produce an effect that they desire. So the where's the exit is just something he says while his body or his willpower, his sheer force of will is forcing open the correct door.

[Laura]

Yeah, I like that too. I would say I'm coming around to this idea that this is a feature.

[Andrew]

I think we've figured this out.

[Laura]

It feels very forward thinking, which I'm just not used to from wizarding bureaucracy. That's fair.

[Eric]

But I bet a thousand people got trapped in there before they added that feature, you know, like how many people keep wandering into the brain tank. Ooh, this looks cozy.

[Laura]

Let's swim.

[Eric]

You know, they have to be able to like at least ask for the exit.

[Micah]

Could we also throw out a third possibility which is that Voldemort maybe assisting Harry in getting out of the Department of Mysteries so that to go kill Bella. Well, so that he can ultimately confront him.

[Laura]

Yeah, using her.

[Andrew]

Do you have that much control though? I mean, he just says, I want to go. And it happens like it. The timing would be very coincidental, I think.

[Eric]

Well, and Bellatrix also finds the exit immediately because she's running. So Harry's chasing after her, but she's closed the door behind her. But how did she find it so quickly to begin with? Also, I like the idea that there's something that just the, the adults know and the kids don't. Such as you can ask for the exit.

[Micah]

I think that for the most part the Death Eaters have mapped out the Department of Mysteries based on all of the reconnaissance that they've been doing up until this point between Podmore and Bode and the fact that Lucius has been hanging out down here. Didn't one of the Death Eaters also used to work in the Department of Mysteries?

[Eric]

That's Bode. I think he was.

[Micah]

Well, no, one of the Death Eaters yet possibly. Rookwood.

[Eric]

Rookwood.

[Laura]

I thought. Yeah, I think you're right about that.

[Micah]

I think that Bellatrix, she also could just have a lot of magical ability that forces the room to show her the exit.

[Laura]

Yeah, I mean, we know it's very powerful.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. By the way, I really like this point from James. So, by this logic, would asking the walls nicely to unlock the door to the love room work? I think you'd have to say something like, I'm looking for love.

[Eric]

I'm looking for where the magic happened. You have to stroke the doorknob.

[Andrew]

I'm looking for something to do with my wand.

[Eric]

I mean, I don't think that's what.

[Laura]

The love room is for.

[Andrew]

People are asking for the show to get weird again. So that's my attempt right here.

[Eric]

People actually are asked. We get five emails a week about that.

[Andrew]

Make Michael cast weird again. Weird again.

[Micah]

So, Laura, I also thought that it was important that we take a minute to feel for Lupin here, because obviously Harry has lost his godfather, but Lupin has just lost his best friend not long after regaining him. It's not been, what, but two years since Sirius has been cleared, at least for those who know him well enough. And the fact that Lupin does everything in his power to prevent Harry from following Sirius through the veil, I think speaks volumes of his character, given what emotionally he's probably going through in this moment.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that. That is an incredibly difficult line to walk. You're trying to restrain and comfort Harry and look out for him while also grieving the loss of your lifelong friend. Like, that's. But I think he's probably just so shocked in the moment, too. You just kind of kick into protector mode and do what you need to do.

[Laura]

I think that's right.

[Eric]

He's got a lot of logic and he knows that Harry is ready to jump into the veil. Like, just not because Harry is a death wish, but he's literally just. He's sure that there are people in there and if they're in there, then they can come out, is Harry's logic.

[Micah]

So Lupin, I know, is going to get a little bit of a bad rap as we move forward in this series. So I just wanted to take a moment to appreciate what he does here. And not only does he help Harry, he helps Neville because he removes the curse from Neville's legs so that he can walk again.

[Eric]

He's like, neville, you sound ridiculous. I can't do anything about that just yet, but I'll help your legs again. Neville's still got a broken nose, unfortunately.

[Laura]

So in the atrium, Harry actually manages to kind of hold his own with Bellatrix, at least initially. And ultimately he manages to produce a decent enough sounding Crucio that it does initially catch her off guard.

[Eric]

It's not her feet.

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah, that's kind of cool. She. I mean, initially, she actually tripped.

[Eric]

She. Convenient. At the same moment was just like.

[Laura]

Oh, and she was so embarrassed by. Wait, what would embarrass her more? Getting hit by a teenage Crucio cast or tripping in the middle of the.

[Andrew]

Probably the former, yeah.

[Laura]

But she, you know, it's. It's good enough that she's initially knocked off her feet. She yells, she has a moment of fear about this. But it's very clear that Harry doesn't yet have the skill set to be able to successfully cast something like this. And she says that line that I think we talk about quite a bit with regard to Harry's character around the unforgivable curses. And she says, you have to mean it. You have to really want to cause pain and torture and in order for this to work. And I'm wondering, do we think Harry could have gotten there with Bellatrix if he had had more time with her?

[Andrew]

So I think the answer is in how she is describing it. Like you said, she said, you need to mean them, Potter. You need to really want to cause pain to enjoy its righteous anger. Won't hurt me for long. I'll show you how it's done. I'll give you a lesson. Does Harry really want to cause pain and enjoy it? That's tough. Even in a moment like this. Maybe, yes, he wants to cause pain, but does he enjoy it? I'm not so sure. That said, I think with more focus and determination and just like, maybe being a little more calm, he would be able to cast this curse on her.

[Micah]

So I disagree slightly. I'm not sure he's mature enough at this point to really mean it. Despite what just happened to Sirius. And the main reason being that Harry is dealing with a lot of conflicting emotions in this moment. And I think if we're to compare this to just a couple books later in Deathly Hallows to when Amicus carrow spits on McGonagall. The crucio that Harry casts here is far more intense and far more intentional. And yes, he's a couple years older, but I think he really is able to channel his emotions and be in the proper state of mind to use this unforgivable curse. Like, he is livid at what has just transpired in front of him and the only thing on his mind is repaying Amicus Caro for what he just did to McGonagall to the point where it, it even shocks her.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. I do wonder if Harry were able to successfully cast Crucio, how that would have played with the Ministry of Magic because so like, would he have been left let off the hook for this unforgivable curse? It is unforgivable. I mean this is the same Ministry that is ready to punish Dumbledore at the end of this chapter. So I really wonder how they would have reacted to this.

[Eric]

It's. It's wild because they have some Death Eaters that are downstairs restrained in their department of mysteries. Like there was clearly break in. The Death Eaters themselves are clearly involved. There's not a lot of deniability there. But they're looking for chances to chuck Harry and Azkaban. So maybe it's one of those situations where, I mean, unless Dumbledore arrives and stages the scene to do to be. Otherwise yeah, Harry could be in hot water here. But. But that actually brings up another question that I had which is how does Harry get up here before Dumbledore? Because if a good one. If you read the first couple of paragraphs of this chapter, Dumbledore has already mostly taken care of all the Death Eaters and most of them are like tied up. Kingsley is dueling Bellatrix. Kingsley falters.

[Micah]

He.

[Eric]

He moans. He goes, ah. And that gets Dumbledore's attention. So Dumbledore lets Bellatrix leave. And then while Harry's still being restrained by Lupin, I guess Dumbledore doesn't really do anything because then Harry goes and runs past Dumbledore, up the stairs, out the room, into the atrium. What is Dumbledore playing at here? Because it should be his. He should be going after her and certainly not Harry, who is not capable of rational thought right now. And yeah, yeah. What's going on here?

[Laura]

Well, James in our Discord is saying Harry has the speed of youth on his side and he's got a lot.

[Andrew]

Of rage right now too. So I feel like that's speeding him up.

[Eric]

There's an app or eight for that.

[Micah]

Middle name is Apparition. He can Apparate anywhere he wants to at any time.

[Andrew]

Maybe he hadn't gotten his steps that day. So he was like, well I better just run this one out because I need to close my rings.

[Eric]

But it takes a while for Dumbledore to arrive. It's not like there's like 15 seconds between Harry and Bellatrix. And then Dumbledore shows up.

[Micah]

Bellatrix and Harry used up the free passes to get through the exit door. And so Dumbledore was just sitting there trying to.

[Eric]

Trying doors.

[Micah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

The room is like, how many fools are in here today? How many times do I have to just like give you a free pass out of here? Dang.

[Eric]

I'm just. It feels irresponsible. You know what it gives? It gives Sorcerer's Stone vibes. Where Dumbledore, I think flat out says to Harry, at the end of the year, I thought you had a right to face Quirrel Voldemort if you wanted to. Harry was 11 years old. That was the bad call. Like. But it feels like he's letting Harry go and avenge Sirius. Maybe it's due to guilt over his involvement in the fact that Sirius ended up dead, but this is still a reckless decision. Especially because it puts Harry right in front of Voldemort again.

[Laura]

Well, especially considering we know that in just a few months time, Dumbledore is going to be making Snape swear to him that he'll kill him and not to let Bellatrix do it because she likes to play with her food.

[Eric]

So he knows exactly what type of Death Eater Bellatrix is and is resigning Harry to that fake God, Laura. That's such a good call out.

[Micah]

And on top of that, we're gonna be in a situation very similar to this at the end of Half Blood Prince where Dumbledore does in fact immobilize Harry. He prevents him from getting involved. Maybe we couldn't do that in both books. That would have been a little.

[Eric]

Or he knows that Harry just be really cross, lets him not get his revenge.

[Micah]

Now, do you think deep down that maybe Dumbledore is hoping for a Voldemort cameo?

[Laura]

Probably, yeah. Well, isn't he start. I mean, at this point, isn't Dumbledore starting to really put together the Horcrux theory? We don't know about it yet from Harry's perspective, but is he trying to test the waters here to see what happens when the two of them are.

[Eric]

In the same room, the same body even? Yeah, as happens.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, no, I. I think that makes sense. I mean, Dumbledore was onto this Horcrux thing since Chamber Secrets. Right. And I think.

[Laura]

Yeah, no, I guess you're right. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Now's a good opportunity though, to your point, to see what happens when the two of them are together while Dumbledore is a monitor of the situation. Yeah.

[Eric]

Viewing. He's not going to learn anything bad. No, no, no.

[Laura]

Nothing bad happens here.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Come on.

[Micah]

I do agree, though, I. I think that Dumbledore should have done some sort of intervention here to prevent Harry from.

[Eric]

Going after Bellatrix or splitting his soul or something, you know? Yeah. Like, there are. There are protections here. There is. Yeah. Revenge is never good. So. So Dumbledore is careless at worst and manipulative and strategic at best. And I. I think it probably. I probably go on the ladder where he's letting Harry go up there, maybe in the hopes that Voldemort will show up or that he'll learn more about the situation, but it puts Harry at risk.

[Laura]

Well, we're going to get a little bit more into this discussion when we get back, specifically about Bellatrix. I know, Eric, you have some points you want to bring up.

[Eric]

I am so excited.

[Laura]

But first, we do need to take a quick break.

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[Laura]

Eric, tell me about Bellatrix.

[Eric]

We need to talk about.

[Laura]

Yeah. What's the deeper reading that you're doing here?

[Eric]

Yeah. So this time, reading through, I picked up just a few things. And we know, of course, in the plot of Cursed Child that it is in fact Bellatrix and Voldemort, whose child is involved. And I have to just ask because some of these things are a bit odd. Going through the books with that in mind. So the first of three things I notice is that after Harry fails to cast the Crucio Curse, Bellatrix mentions that the Dark Lord himself taught her the dark arts. And that's kind of an interesting little tidbit. She says, I was and am the Dark Lord's most loyal servant. I learned the dark arts from him and I know spells of such power that you pathetic little boy can never hope to compete. And funnily enough to that Harry casts stupefy at her. But what is this personal tutelage that she's received from Voldemort? When did it start?

[Micah]

Bow chicka wow wow.

[Eric]

Like no, really, because either it's private between the two of them or Voldemort and all of his Death Eater army are running drills like, okay guys, today we're gonna learn to conjure snakes. Can you see that happen?

[Andrew]

We've always known that Bellatrix has had an attraction to Voldemort. Right? Like she's really fond over him.

[Eric]

So I could see her being one sided though, right?

[Andrew]

No, no, definitely so. But I could see her asking her, boo, hey, could you give me some lessons? And maybe he wants to, you know, improve his ranks. So he's like, yeah, I'll teach you a thing or two.

[Eric]

Because it's a little bit different. I mean, if you look at the wording though, it's a little bit different than saying the Dark Lord showed me the most heinous spells and, and I learned the dark arts from him. That speaks to like a long term development kind of. So, so, so that's interesting. That's just, that's an interesting way in which she puts it. She's married by the way. But moving on, Voldemort as the second thing. Voldemort refers to her as Bella.

[Andrew]

That's a big flag to me.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

What is that makes the cursed child twist canon to me.

[Eric]

Yeah, this alone I think could do it because that's an informal version of her name. We don't ever see Voldemort. Yeah.

[Micah]

Which just happens to mean beautiful.

[Eric]

Yeah. So we don't ever see Voldemort using an informal name with his followers. In fact, he rigidly calls many of them by their surname, McNair. You know, he doesn't even call Peter by any of his name. He's called him Wormtail. So to shorten the name of one of your few female followers in such a way seems to also indicate some level of affection from Voldemort. And they're in front of people now, so Even if he calls her Bella, like on the side, why wouldn't he just, in this instance, call her Bellatrix? The full.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eric]

Like Bellatrix.

[Andrew]

Apparently the relationship is out in the open if he's using it in a public setting.

[Laura]

Yeah. Or like they've known each other in this way long enough that he doesn't even think about it when he says it. Which is so weird to imagine Voldemort having like, an affectionate name for somebody, because that just doesn't. It feels like that falls in the realm of Voldemort not understanding love.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Laura]

I mean, yeah, it's weird.

[Eric]

Here's what happens. Master, I'm sorry, I knew not I was fighting the anima. Just black Master, you should know. And he says, be quiet, Bella. I shall deal with you in a moment.

[Andrew]

Bella, where's the prophecy? Loca?

[Micah]

I like that.

[Andrew]

That's a Twilight reference. For anyone?

[Micah]

Yeah, there's a prophecy in Twilight.

[Andrew]

No, no, no. A line from Twilight went viral. Bella, where the hell have you been? Loca Said by Jacob.

[Eric]

One of the things that could make Twilight worse is if there were a prophecy in it.

[Micah]

Laura, though, I'm glad that you brought this up because one of the things that I picked up on is that Bellatrix, as far as we know, is the only female Death Eater, at least the only one that we've met up until this point. And as far as I can tell, the only one we ever meet is Electro Caro in Deathly Hallows. Narcissa is most likely not a Death Eater. I think she's just part of the crowd, and a resistant part of the crowd at that. And so I'm curious, do we think this is why Voldemort chooses to interact with her in this way? Because she's really the only female part of his Death Eater squad.

[Laura]

Yeah. And I mean, honestly, I could totally see Voldemort being one of these, like, eugenics bros who thinks that it's his duty to sow his seed and, like, produce perfect specimen children. That just feels right up his alley.

[Eric]

That escalated.

[Laura]

Sorry, I mean, tell me I'm wrong.

[Eric]

Look, I don't think you're wrong, but it's interesting that he softens, right? This is Voldemort in all of his glory. And he's also threatening her. He says, like, be quiet. I will deal with you later. Like, stop groveling. But he calls her by a softer name. Like, you would think he would go all the way hard, the way that he does on his other Death Heaters with her. So that's just two of three. The third thing that I want to mention, and this has to do with sort of towards the end of the chapter. The only reason that Cornelius Fudge sees Voldemort is because after he fails to possess Harry or keep possession on Harry and he doesn't have a body anymore because he's disappeared entirely, he actually comes back. Voldemort comes back, but it's only for a few seconds to rescue Bellatrix Lestrange from the rubble that she's under and leave. And it's in those few seconds. Why did Voldemort come back into the room? Corporeal form where he can be observed or even worse, attacked. Dumbledore is in full form right across the way. You're really going to come back to rescue a Death Eater? Voldemort's not supposed to care about his Death Eaters. He's not supposed to care about anybody but himself.

[Andrew]

I, I think you're making a great case here for the cursed child twist being canon. That. I hate that. I'm glad you bring up these points. I don't. I like that it ties back to order. The Phoenix. Thank God we have some evidence.

[Eric]

Yeah, I don't think that makes it a better play, but.

[Laura]

No, but like I, I know we talked about this before, but I feel like timeline wise it could work that Bellatrix could be pregnant at this point, which would really explain why he would come back to get her.

[Eric]

Especially if he thinks about it the way that you said that he probably thinks about it is he's got, he's got mile. Or what's mileage? He's got baggage. Or Bellatrix is, has something that's baggage.

[Micah]

But if I'm to play a little bit of devil's advocate, could it also just be because she is fiercely loyal to him and he wants to ensure that he has at least one Death Eater because at this point all the other Death Eaters are tied up down to the Department of Mysteries and let's face it, we don't really know where their loyalties truly lie. At the end of the day, Bellatrix is completely committed to him.

[Eric]

Yes. Yeah, I mean he's down six or seven Death Eaters. It makes sense that he would save who he can, except it's Voldemort. He's not supposed to care about anybody except himself, especially when the stakes are so high. So it's interesting because again, Fudge only sees him at the very last second when he's there to rescue Bella. And if, and if his Instinct. If Voldemort had just fled, we still would get, you know, another year or two of the Ministry's official line on Voldemort being that he's not back.

[Micah]

Maybe he's also just trying to clean it up. Like he's trying to ensure that, you know, he didn't know that Fudge was going to show up. If he's able to hightail it out of there and remove Bellatrix from the scene, then it's just a bunch of Death Eaters that got caught down in the department of Mysteries. I don't know. I like where you're going. I agree that this is a very cool way that you've organized this Cursed Child story.

[Eric]

Yeah, well, it's just interesting because I really question. It's these little, little moments in the dialogue and uncharacteristic behavior, especially of Voldemort. We don't see him too often in the books, but when we see him, he doesn't behave like this. That really makes me question whether he and Bellatrix have like gone to a Coldplay concert together or something. You know, I mean he's like her boss after all.

[Andrew]

Oh, that would be good. Where's Thor? She photoshopped that.

[Eric]

Yeah, but I don't know, I don't know the nature of their AI.

[Micah]

Probably in about 30 seconds after the show.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah. Well, cool. Thank you. Thank you for that because yeah, I think that's an element of Voldemort that we don't really talk about. I mean, until Cursed Child, I don't think anyone considered that he could even physically procreate.

[Eric]

I remember that being a big sticking point.

[Andrew]

Don't judge a book by its cover, y'. All.

[Eric]

Well, there's a lot else going on. No knows this chapter alone, so it's easy to, to miss it.

[Laura]

Well, I wanted to.

[Eric]

I wanted to.

[Laura]

Talk about the symbolism of the Fountain of Magical Brethren because there is quite a bit of subtext I think we can read into here. You know, you have the witch, the wizard, and then you have a centaur, a house elf and a goblin. And of course the house elf and the goblin are just looking up starry eyed at the witch and wizard. You know, it's really giving this idea that magical creatures are somehow subservient and happy to be so to wizards, which we know is not reality. But this fountain gets absolutely wrecked over the course of this battle and I think there's some symbolism here. The big one that stuck out to me was what happened to the wizard figure that was used by Dumbledore to protect Harry. So Voldemort, right after he appears, very quickly decides that he's gonna AK Harry. And Dumbledore saves Harry by having the wizard figure from the fountain basically hold him captive against a wall. However, that wizard figure was decapitated. And I thought this could be potentially an omen of Dumbledore's coming death.

[Eric]

Like a self sacrificial for Harry, kind of. Right.

[Micah]

Dumbledore doesn't protect Harry, so there goes that theory.

[Laura]

Well, I mean, I'm just joking, so. No, I mean, you're right. He doesn't protect Harry as much as he should, that's for sure. But I don't know if it was meant to sort of serve as like a little bit of a red herring for what was to come. I thought it was a very intentional choice that Harry was protected by the wizard, Bellatrix was protected by the witch, although that was probably more so just to get her out of the way. Not so much to protect her, but it had the added bonus of protecting her, which feels very Dumbledore to do, like, do no harm, even if the person definitely deserves to be harmed.

[Eric]

Dumbler's like Batman in that way. He's not gonna kill, he's gonna just.

[Micah]

Imprison and being pinned down by the witch. We know that she's ultimately destroyed by Molly in Deathly Hallows. Oh.

[Laura]

Oh, I like that. That's great. Thank you for that, Micah. Cause I was like, there's gotta be something to this. And I just. It was. Yeah, I wasn't able to draw an inference there. So that's a really, really good one. I was also thinking with the centaur, it loses an arm. And I was just like, honestly, candidly, just looking up like literary theory and representation about what it means to lose limbs, what that's intended to represent.

[Eric]

Let's ask George Lucas.

[Andrew]

So.

[Eric]

That'S amazing.

[Laura]

High ground. But anyway, the loss of a limb like that is very representative of a loss of power. And I think that's definitely a very active theme with the centaurs, particularly in this book. So to see that happen here. But then also the fact that Micah, you, you brought up that the centaur also charges Voldemort. The centaur is also being used in this case to ward off an enemy. Very similar to what Hermione was just trying to do.

[Eric]

Everybody's doing it. Let the centaurs take out the garbage. Yeah.

[Micah]

Could we also maybe flip that and think that the centaurs, perhaps we'll come around and see the larger threat that Voldemort poses to the wizarding world and in the moment that it's called for, will charge Voldemort and his followers.

[Laura]

Yep.

[Eric]

Yeah, Seems reasonable.

[Laura]

It does. And the one that I'm really having trouble connecting here is the Goblin. It loses an earth, huh? I don't. I don't really know what. How to connect threads to what's coming in the rest of the series to that.

[Eric]

It's interesting.

[Andrew]

Well, Fudge and co have not been listening. That kind of works backwards.

[Eric]

But the goblin and the house elf statues are very interesting to me in this chapter because they are. They go and get help, which is. Which is not strictly a protect or attack role that Dumbledore is given to the witch and the wizard and the centaur. And at the end of it, when things are settling down, the house elf and the goblin applaud like Dumbledore or like, yay. And I find it so interesting because I have to ask, like, what. What is the magic? Like what is the. Is it transfiguration to where. Because we see statues do that a couple of times, the suits of armor at Hogwarts or like that. But they're always kind of single minded. So is Dumbledore controlling the goblin and the house elf to clap for him here?

[Andrew]

I don't think so.

[Eric]

Because if not, then it's actually more problematic because it's the whole reason that the statue of Magical Brethren or Fountain of Magical Brethren is problematic is thinking that these other races that are non human will adore the humans in the room. Right? So if, if Dumbledore brought them to life and just said, do whatever you guys want to do and they're like, yay, wizards are great, then that's. You see how that's also a problem? So I choose to think that Dumbledore, I don't know, gave him part of his personality and right now he needs two little hype men. And so, so he's literally like.

[Andrew]

Because, you know, doesn't really carry an ego about him. So that's why this isn't checking out for me.

[Eric]

I think. I think he does carry an ego, but it's subtle. I think he's intelligent enough to, when the moment calls for it, get something that seems like it's not him to promote, you know, his cool. Coolness.

[Micah]

I do think though that there's something to be said for the obedience factor of the goblin in the house elf going for help, especially as it relates to house elves, because throughout this series we've seen them be so loyal to whether it was their family or to other individuals. So the fact that Dumbledore chooses these two to go for help and I guess you could also maybe look at it as him getting them out of harm's way. Even though the Goblin does lose an ear, like, maybe he has a little bit of a soft spot for these creatures and he realizes that if he leaves them here, they're probably going to get blown to smithereens by Voldemort.

[Eric]

I'm going to call this for what it is. The goblin and the house elf aren't tall enough to protect Harry. So they have to go like, the wizard gets to Harry because he's the biggest and most likely to be able to protect him. I mean, except maybe the centaur. But I think the goblin and the house elf are used in a way that would be sort of, okay, you can't fight, so you go get.

[Andrew]

Their skill set. Is going to call for help in this scenario.

[Micah]

Dobby's pretty good.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Hedwig's theme does agree with you, Eric. That's hilarious and cocky and elaborate. Totally. Dumbledore coded your theory a couple minutes ago.

[Eric]

Thanks. Yeah. If you go back and read when they clap and what the circumstances are, it sounds. It's like at the perfect moment for Dumbledore to look good. And. And Dumbledore and Fudge have this tense moment, which, you know, we'll get back to the chapter in a second, but they have this tense moment where it's un. You're uncertain if Dumbledore is about to get arrested still. But then a second later, probably after the clapping, he starts making demands of Fudge. Here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna do this, this, and this, and this, and this. And so I think it's all because he had an audience clapping for him.

[Micah]

Going back to what you said earlier, though, Laura, I. I do think there's larger symbolism here. And the fact that the Fountain of Magical Brethren gets completely destroyed. Right. And it's almost like a reset. It's. Yeah, it's a larger message that's being sent. I think that in order to defeat Voldemort, the entire wizarding community is going to need to find a way to work together as opposed to how things were done previously. Like you were saying, the fact that you had all of these other creatures that were looking up adoringly at the witch and wizard and that's no longer the case. Right. Everybody is more or less on equal footing. And I think that probably Dumbledore may take a little bit of satisfaction in the fact that he had a hand in this fountain being destroyed. Of course, we know what comes to replace it in Deathly Hallows is far worse, but you can actually probably debate that there are some similarities between the two of them.

[Laura]

Yeah, no, definitely. I think it's just a matter of degrees, Right?

[Micah]

For sure. Yeah.

[Eric]

Cedric. Degrees. Amos, degrees. Oh, degrees.

[Micah]

Sorry, I'm on a dad joke.

[Eric]

I'm on a Delphi case.

[Laura]

There we go.

[Eric]

It's killing me.

[Laura]

All right, well, we do need to take one more break here before we come back to wrap up our discussion, so we'll be back in just a sec. Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Ebglis. After an initial dosing phase, about 4 in 10 people taking EVGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintained skin that's still more clear at one year, with monthly dosing.

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[Laura]

Voldemort's in the atrium. We already covered some of this, but he does confirm ultimately that Harry is being truthful about the prophecy being lost. Bellatrix of Course initially thinks Harry is lying about this, but Voldemort is very quickly and easily able to read Harry's mind because, you know, he didn't really learn Occlumency this year.

[Eric]

Oh.

[Laura]

So, oops, that sucks. And we already talked about, you know, the events of what the fountain does and Harry being protected by the wizard statue from the fountain. But getting a little deeper into this part of the chapter where the battle between Dumbledore and Voldemort starts, I just have to say that I think I stand corrected here. And I think I need to own up to the fact that we've made fun of this scene in the movie for years for being like a Pokemon battle. And upon rereading this chapter, that's like, pretty much what happens.

[Eric]

Yeah, that's what it is.

[Laura]

That's what it is.

[Andrew]

I think that's okay. Personally, like, and I have this issue with Quidditch too, sometimes. So much is happening, it's kind of hard to follow. If it's more straight follow straightforward like this turn based kind of Pokemon battle. That's okay.

[Micah]

All right.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Micah]

But, you know, shouldn't we also hold the movies in some ways to a higher standard, especially as it relates to battle scenes? You have millions of dollars at your disposal to be able to create epic battles and.

[Eric]

I'm gonna stop you right there, Mike.

[Micah]

Let me just finish.

[Eric]

Okay? Okay.

[Micah]

You can do whatever you want. But, like, we've watched videos on YouTube created by fans where there is better spell casting and better battle sequences than what is actually in the Harry Potter films.

[Eric]

Okay, now I gotta ask Micah, when Order the Phoenix came out during the Summer of Potter, did you go and see. Because the last 30 minutes are in IMAX, right. Did you see this Pokemon battle between Dumbledore and Voldemort in imax?

[Micah]

Because you can't see it at all.

[Eric]

Until you've seen it in imax. That's where it looks cool. That's where it really pops. That's where it's not as ridiculous looking.

[Micah]

Not everybody can go to imax.

[Eric]

I'm. I'm joking, of course. Yeah. I. I think the TV show will have more time to devote to it, which is ultimately the. I've told this story before, but reading this book for the very first time, I was like, they could make just this Ministry of Magic segment two hours long. It's that complex.

[Andrew]

It'll be a whole episode for sure.

[Micah]

I think one thing I do hope that the TV show does is kind of elevate the spell casting and some of the other battle scenes that we've seen in, in the, in the series. And I do hope too, I know we didn't talk about this when we were talking about the fountain, but Max, it like we didn't see the fountain of magical brethren come to life in the movies.

[Laura]

Right?

[Eric]

That's a part of this chapter and the previous one that's really valuable, valid and valuable to see adapted because they're using the scenery around them to affect change. Like the magic is fun and all, but they're using the shelves to get away from the Death Eaters or they're using the statue to protect Harry and pin Bellatrix. Like, that's, I think, the visceral, cool angle that we're looking for. That just wasn't really in the movies.

[Andrew]

And I think we're already seeing hints of this with the paparazzi photos from filming. But we are seeing some welcome changes, I think stylistically and hopefully that does get carried over to wand work battles, stuff like that.

[Eric]

So we complained about Order. The Phoenix is showing Voldemort in a suit, but wait till you see Voldemort in a tracksuit. It's going to be amazing.

[Andrew]

It's going to be so 90s and. Tracksuit. Yeah. No. So I'm optimistic that they are making a conscious effort to do things a little differently, put a good twist on things. And I think a big question here is going to be, are they working with the same one choreographer this time? Are they bringing in new people who are going to have a different vision for it? That's a factor. And last thing I'll say on this is we were nervous about the wand work in Hogwarts Legacy before we got into that game, right? We were like, what are battles going to be like? Because it can be kind of hokey, but they did an amazing job in that video game. So I'm not saying the people who worked on that are going to work on the TV show, but that leaves me optimistic for the future, how things can evolve.

[Eric]

It was Paul Harris, by the way. Shout Out Juan, choreographer for Great guy.

[Andrew]

Great guy. I'm sure he goes to the conferences, teaches people the spell work, but yeah, let's get somebody new in there. Definitely Micah T. He has some thoughts.

[Micah]

Clearly not the only one.

[Andrew]

Juan choreographer Micah T. All right, I'm done.

[Laura]

Hey, that sounds like a great alternate career path. Maybe we can all look into that.

[Eric]

But if Micah and Laura get married, Micah takes her name and becomes Micah.

[Andrew]

T. Well, they are already Mary.

[Laura]

That's why I don't Think that's where Andrew was going with?

[Andrew]

No, I was just abbreviating his last. I don't know if Micah brings up his last name on the show anymore, so I just played it safe.

[Laura]

So anyway, Voldemort briefly possesses Harry. And it's kind of like a full circle moment because in the earlier parts of Order of the Phoenix, Harry was very concerned that he was being possessed by Voldemort. And remember, Ginny has to confront him about this and say, like, ask him all of these questions so that she can then say, hey, if you're not losing time, if you're not like, blacking out and then waking up doing weird shit like having strangled chickens, you're probably not being possessed by Voldemort. But Harry actually gets to feel that here.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah. It's excruciating.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And this is just a heartbreaking scene moment to read and watch it just. And with the movie, it's illustrating what's going on with dramatic music and Harry's face. Harry's being used by Voldemort after being tricked earlier, falling into his trap. And all Dumbledore can do is watch. It's just so sad. It's one of those scenes that sticks with me.

[Eric]

I do like seeing Dumbledore at a loss here because he is for a little bit.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Micah]

I do like the way the movie did it with the montage. But I also really liked in the book how it's serious and only serious that loosens Voldemort's grip on Harry. And the fact that Voldemort can't even stand a little bit of compassion speaks volumes. Like I get for a viewer seeing that montage of kind of all of the happy moments in Harry's last five years at Hogwarts, it hits home. But for a reader, I'm wondering too, with the TV show, how might they choose to adapt this? Because the fact that the loss of Sirius is so fresh in Harry's mind, but yet him thinking of him immediately conjures these positive emotions, throws Voldemort completely off in this moment. So we'll see what happens. I figured you would appreciate that, Eric.

[Eric]

I do, Yeah. I.

[Micah]

Serious. See serious one more time.

[Eric]

Yeah. Is meaningful to me. And seeing how quickly what I didn't really remember, it's not just painful for Voldemort, but, like, he pulls right out. He. He gets away. He's gone in like three seconds after Harry thinks is serious. So it's that strong of a memory or a love. So I really like that.

[Laura]

And before we get that moment, I just want to connect another thread here. So before Harry starts thinking of Sirius and ultimately causes Voldemort to just, like, shrivel up and go away, Voldemort is speaking through Harry to Dumbledore and saying, kill me. End it. And this time, approximately a year from now, Dumbledore is going to be saying the same thing to Harry in the cave. So there's just. There's a lot of foreshadowing happening here in this chapter that I didn't necessarily see until I did this reread. Unless we talked about this last time. And I just forgot. I'm not sure, but it feels like one of those things that you just. You get something new out of the story every time you read it.

[Eric]

Yeah, Yeah, I like that.

[Andrew]

That's the beauty of it.

[Laura]

And Fudge, you know, rounds out this chapter with the classic he's back moment. Although I think. Is that a movieism?

[Eric]

It is, but.

[Laura]

But, I mean, that's the vibe.

[Eric]

That's. It's. It's not. And the truth, yeah, it's not just the vibe. But, like, I love how in the movie, it feels from Robert Hardy that he says it out loud in spite of himself. And it's obviously like, it works on. It works on, like, seven different levels. Because it's, like, funny for the audience to be like, he's, like, talking out loud when he didn't mean to. But it's that shock because you see the insight into his character that he really actually didn't believe Voldemort was back. We like to believe the ones that are denying it know he's back, but are secretly pretending they don't know. But there, that scene in the movie shows that he really kind of is surprised by it. And it forces his hand to then. Cause he said that out loud. Forces his hand to acknowledge it and be like, okay, we're in the book. He still has a choice to kind of deny it, and he doesn't. So it's more succinct in the movie. But I like it.

[Micah]

It's the complete opposite of what transpired at the end of Goblet of Fire, where Dumbledore gave him the opportunity to come on board. The Voldemort is backtrain. And Fudge decided, I'm good.

[Eric]

That seems hard.

[Micah]

I'm good. I'll pass.

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah, well. And yeah, last book, Dumbledore was giving all of these orders to the order, right? Because Fudge was not being cooperative. And now Fudge is bumbling and doesn't quite know what to do, but also understands that he can't really do anything to Dumbledore at this point. And Dumbledore, like, really teachers him. Like, he pulls a teacher moment on him and he's like, I will give you exactly 30 minutes of my time tonight. But just a second. I gotta get Harry back to school.

[Micah]

Yeah, listen, Corny.

[Andrew]

I'm running this show now.

[Laura]

He literally, like time boxed the Minister of Magic. Like just the vibe or like the mood of this person. Dumbledore, who really, a lot of people thought should have been the Minister of Magic, being the person that the current minister leans on through a lot of his insecurities around his readiness for the role.

[Eric]

It's just like now you know the you. You're beginning to sense the level in which you screwed up all year. Since I've been right all along, here's what we're going to do about it. And the only reason Fudge doesn't push back is because he literally doesn't know what to do and is completely incapable of coming up with any shock too, when he needs to be told what to do. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Well, all right. We're going to go ahead and get into our MVP of the Week. This is a more classic MVP question. Who was the MVP in the Dumbledore slash Voldemort battle? And they are not the only two choices.

[Andrew]

But I did with one of those choices. I went with Dumbledore.

[Laura]

Go for it.

[Andrew]

Taking care of business every day.

[Eric]

Sorry. You could have surprised us, Andrew, and gone with Voldemort, but you didn't know.

[Andrew]

I would never betray Dumbledore in that way. So you guys have more clever picks.

[Eric]

Yeah, I'm gonna give. Look, I think the MVP was actually Bellatrix. She really gets her moment to shine in this moment. Even though what she did to Sirius in the last chapter is unforgivable. Gotta give it to her because she. She gets her clothes up here.

[Micah]

I decided to go with Fox because, yeah, he's just out here taking AKs every day.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's fair.

[Eric]

But where did he come from? He's just here.

[Andrew]

Well, who brought Fox? It was Dumbledore.

[Micah]

So does he have a choice?

[Eric]

No. Fox doesn't even want to be there.

[Micah]

Meanwhile, I really do hope Dumbledore scooped him up before he came back to Hogwarts. Because he.

[Laura]

He's just a little baby.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I'm sure he pocketed him and brought him back to school.

[Micah]

I hope so.

[Laura]

I went with Dumbledore's hype Gang, the house elf and the goblin. I just.

[Eric]

You know what?

[Laura]

You know what it makes me. What it honestly made me think of. And I don't even where this connection was made, it made me think of like Timmy and Tommy from Animal Crossing.

[Micah]

Oh, yeah.

[Laura]

And how they would stand there and just clap emphatically.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Bella. Bella. The second one always repeats.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

And now we're going to get into our links line. Mugglecast listeners who are members of our community [e-mail] mugglecast have answered this week's question. What is your max? That moment of this chapter.

[Andrew]

So Michelle said, I want to see an updated and even more epic duel between Dumbledore and Voldemort. It is a fantastic scene that hopefully can be made even better.

[Eric]

Rachel says, I want to see Bellatrix's telling of Harry that he has to mean it when he tries to cruciate his curse. It's such a big moment for Harry's character using one of these awful spells because he's so angry at her and hurt at the loss of Sirius. I'm also so excited and nervous to see who will be cast as Bellatrix. I'd love it to be Maisie Williams.

[Andrew]

That'd be cool. Is she Game of Thrones?

[Laura]

She might be a bit young.

[Andrew]

What about five years from now?

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Oh, that's.

[Laura]

I think she and Sophie Turner are the same age. Are they not?

[Andrew]

Macy's 28. So she's like low 30s. They can probably. Isn't Macy Williams kind of short? I feel like they need somebody taller for. For Bellatrix.

[Micah]

Just bring back Helena.

[Laura]

Bottom card, Honestly, she was great.

[Micah]

And it is important though that Bellatrix is the one who says this to Harry because it's actually Voldemort in the movie, right? Who tells him he has to meet it.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah.

[Micah]

Matthew says Harry trying the unforgivable and failing even with all his rage and pain, it is just not enough. Yeah, yeah.

[Laura]

Harry's justice says, I want to see Neville's heroism in this chapter. This is a pivotal moment for Neville's character development. He doesn't give up, even when he messes up a bit. We need to see the DA training pan out for all of the characters, not just Harry.

[Micah]

Amen.

[Eric]

Actually, that's a huge call out because in a TV show that can devote more time to this, you will see the kids get be better at magic at the end than they are at the beginning.

[Andrew]

Well, especially with the prophecy. I think we really need to spend more time with Neville and let people talk about that, Kyle said, I want to see the Order and particularly rest of the Weasley clan realizing what happened and their response. Something I've never really seen covered in fanfic with any depth.

[Eric]

Karina says, I would love to see Dumbledore bring the Fountain of Brethren to life. I agree.

[Micah]

And finally, 40 says, this is one of the best chapters in the series and possibly Dumbledore's best moment of the series. It would be nice if they captured the power he radiates in the chapter during his interaction with Voldemort and during his single handed subduing of most of the Death Eaters.

[Andrew]

Get my good side.

[Micah]

You feel almost none of that in the film.

[Eric]

Lastoise Water Beam.

[Andrew]

The links line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show, whether or not you're listening live and to talk about me and how great I am. We ask a new question every week and we invite you to become a member of our community by visiting patreon.com mugglecast and pledging for as little as $5 a month. Remember, this is the best time of year to pledge. Become a Slug Club member and you'll get the new book plus a 20% discount if you use if you sign up for an annual membership. If you have any feedback about today's episode, you can email or send a voice memo to mugglecastmail.com we love hearing you all, so please keep those voice memos coming in. And like I said earlier, we will be off next week because of Labor Day here in the United States. But two weeks from now on Mugglecast Order of the Phoenix Chapter 37 the Lost Prophecy and I was looking at the chapter art for this next chapter. Damn, does Dumbledore look tired? Oh my God, I didn't realize it before.

[Micah]

Yeah, he shouldn't be. He's been off like the last he.

[Andrew]

Had to run around the Department of Mysteries. Close.

[Eric]

I think he's tired because a kid keeps destroying his most precious possessions and he's not worried about the possessions, but he's going to have to go and repair all of those.

[Andrew]

Patreon aside, if you're looking for other ways to support us, please visit mugglecastmerch.com to buy official show gear, including limited time patron gifts from years past. We would also appreciate if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app. And please do tell a fellow Muggle about the show. Finally, visit mugglecast.com for quick access to all of this information. And if you're looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and what the Hype for more pop culture and real world talk. And now to wrap up today's episode, it's time for quiz.

[Eric]

This week's Question. This chapter Ron gets up close and personal with a human brain when he catches one in his hands. How much does the human brain weigh on average in pounds? This was once again a multiple choice question. Is the correct answer a £7, b £5, c £3 or d £1? How much does human brain weigh on average in pounds? The correct answer was C3 pounds. And 50% of people with the correct answer said that they didn't look it up. That's pretty impressive. Correct answers were submitted by a derivative from the masses, A Healthy Breeze, Bony Pony Express, Dumbledore, lie count, 4040 foe, I don't give a Cornelius, Oswald, Fudge, justice, you didn't read my name the last episode. Regards, Scoliosis Centaur, Kayla the Hufflepuff. My boyfriend's name is also Harry Patronus, Seeker, Quid Witch, Salt Air and Dumbledore never needed anything more. The answer wasn't seven or twelve. Laura and what do you think of the Wednesday S2 show and Tofu Tom? Well, for Wednesday S2, stay tuned to what the Hype, our other podcast on pop culture. But thanks to all of those folks for submitting. And here is next week's Quizzage question. In this chapter, the statues of the Fountain of Magical Brethren spring to life to help save the day. But in the summer of 1985, widespread panic occurred when statues in County Cork, Ireland began to seemingly move on their own. What were they statues of exactly? Submit your answer to us on the Kwizzitch form located on the Mugglecast website. Mugglecast.com quizzitch if you're already visiting the site, maybe checking out transcripts or the Wall of Fame Must Listens page, click on Kwizzitch from the main nav.

[Andrew]

I would also like to remind our listening audience that if you have any feedback, you don't have to submit it through the name field on the Quizzage form. You could use the contact form or the YouTube comments or the Spotify section with peace and love. Peace send love. You can send feedback that way. Sometimes people conflate the two.

[Eric]

It seems like Andrew, they're looking for an outlet and they don't know about the feedback form or the email address.

[Andrew]

Separate contact form.

[Laura]

Yeah, believe it or not, they're just having fun.

[Andrew]

I I know they are. I'm just I'm just playing.

[Eric]

That's very fun.

[Laura]

Very yum.

[Andrew]

All right, Careful what you wish for. Now, everybody's going to submit through the quizzage form their questions, their deep dive questions.

[Eric]

It will not be read. Peace and love.

[Andrew]

And since we are off next week and September 1st is just around the corner, just wanted to say to y', all, enjoy your ride back to Hogwarts.

[Micah]

Choo choo.

[Andrew]

Thanks, everyone, for listening. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

Bye, everyone.

[Laura]

Bye.

[Andrew]

Bye, Sam.