C's Get Degrees (OOTP Chapter 15, The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)

Summary

MuggleCast: C's Get Degrees (OOTP Chapter 15, The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
Released: February 18, 2025

MuggleCast dives deep into Chapter 15 of Order of the Phoenix, titled "The Hogwarts High Inquisitor." Hosted by lifelong friends Andrew, Eric, Laura, and guest Jordan, this episode meticulously dissects the intricate developments within Hogwarts and the broader wizarding world.

1. Introduction and Guest Appearance

The episode kicks off with the trio welcoming Jordan, a dedicated listener and Patreon supporter. Jordan shares his enthusiasm for Order of the Phoenix, his Hufflepuff house pride, and candid thoughts on Hermione's "control freak" tendencies. This candid interaction sets the tone for an engaging and personable discussion.

2. Major Casting News: John Lithgow as Dumbledore

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the latest casting news for the forthcoming Harry Potter TV series. The hosts discuss John Lithgow nearing a deal to portray Albus Dumbledore, replacing previous rumors about Mark Rylance.

Laura (04:36):
"John Lithgow is an amazing actor. I think it could work really well. Initially, I wrote it off because he's not British, but his versatility might just make it work."

Eric (07:11):
"He’s 80 years old, which raises concerns about his longevity in a 10-year project. It’s a risky move, especially after Richard Harris's departure."

Jordan (09:22):
"I think Lithgow would excel as the calm Dumbledore, but I have doubts about his ability to capture the more intense moments."

The hosts express mixed feelings, weighing Lithgow's impressive acting credentials against the challenges his age and American background might pose in retaining the authentic British essence of the character.

3. In-Depth Chapter 15 Analysis

The core of the episode revolves around Chapter 15, "The Hogwarts High Inquisitor," where Dolores Umbridge is appointed to Hogwarts, signaling increased Ministry interference.

a. Understanding the High Inquisitor Role

Laura initiates a comparison between the High Inquisitor in Harry Potter and the role of High Inquisitors in other fictional universes, notably Star Wars.

Laura (16:05):
"A High Inquisitor typically oversees investigations and has significant authority, much like in the Inquisitorius in Star Wars."

b. Ministry's Educational Decrees and Overreach

The discussion shifts to the Ministry's sudden legislative actions granting unprecedented control over Hogwarts. The hosts debate whether the Ministry is intentionally creating a teacher shortage to install Umbridge, reflecting a deeper strategy to undermine Dumbledore.

Eric (22:09):
"It's possible the Ministry is manufacturing a shortage of teachers to ensure Umbridge is appointed. This would align with their agenda to discredit Dumbledore's leadership."

c. Resignations and Institutional Resistance

Two members of the Wizengamot resign in protest against Umbridge's appointment, highlighting internal resistance within the Ministry. The panel debates the implications of these resignations and their impact on Hogwarts' governance.

Andrew (30:04):
"These resignations are clear signs of government overreach. It's a breach of the healthy relationship that should exist between Hogwarts and the Ministry."

d. Classroom Dynamics: Snape, Umbridge, and Trelawney

A detailed analysis of classroom scenes follows, focusing on Snape's harsh grading system and Umbridge's intrusive inspections. The hosts critique Snape's lack of transparency in grading and Umbridge's oppressive teaching methods.

Laura (35:22):
"Snape’s grading is more about intimidation than assessment. Hermione, on the other hand, is modeling excellent academic behavior by actively engaging with the material."

Andrew (42:55):
"Trelawney's handling of Umbridge's inspection was messy. She could have maintained her composure and turned the situation to her advantage."

e. Hermione's Rebellion and Formation of the DA

Hermione's determination to resist Umbridge's ineffective teaching methods leads to the suggestion of forming the Defense Against the Dark Arts group, setting the stage for future student-led resistance.

Laura (64:32):
"Hermione posits that they should learn Defense Against the Dark Arts from Harry since no one else is willing to teach them effectively."

4. Character Motivations and Strategies

The panel delves into the motivations behind key characters' actions, particularly focusing on Dumbledore's strategic maneuvers and Umbridge's authoritarian tactics. They explore how Dumbledore's potential awareness of his mortality influences his decisions, including the eventual hiring of Severus Snape.

Eric (24:28):
"Dumbledore's strategic planning is evident in how he handles staff appointments and prepares for future conflicts, knowing his time may be limited."

5. Interactive Segments and Listener Engagement

Throughout the episode, the hosts engage listeners with interactive segments like MVP of the Week and the Links Line, encouraging Patreon participation and audience interaction. They pose thought-provoking questions, such as:

Laura (71:26):
"If you were High Inquisitor of Hogwarts, what would your top priority be?"

Listener responses range from serious suggestions like enhancing student mental health resources to humorous takes on modernizing Hogwarts with TikTok channels.

6. Conclusion and Upcoming Content

In wrapping up, the hosts tease upcoming discussions, including Chapter 16, and promote additional podcast offerings like What the Hype and Millennial. They emphasize the importance of listener support through Patreon and merchandise purchases.

Andrew (82:00):
"If you enjoy the show, please tell your friends and consider joining us on Patreon to access exclusive content and support the podcast."

Notable Quotes

• Laura (04:36):
  "John Lithgow is an amazing actor. I think it could work really well."

• Eric (07:11):
  "He’s 80 years old, which raises concerns about his longevity in a 10-year project."

• Andrew (30:04):
  "These resignations are clear signs of government overreach."

• Laura (35:22):
  "Snape’s grading is more about intimidation than assessment."

• Andrew (42:55):
  "Trelawney's handling of Umbridge's inspection was messy."

• Laura (64:32):
  "Hermione posits that they should learn Defense Against the Dark Arts from Harry."

Insights and Conclusions

MuggleCast offers a comprehensive and nuanced exploration of Chapter 15, highlighting the escalating tension between Hogwarts and the Ministry. The appointment of Dolores Umbridge as High Inquisitor marks a pivotal shift towards authoritarian control, prompting both staff and students to seek ways to resist and maintain the integrity of their education.

The hosts commend Hermione's proactive stance in establishing the DA, positioning her as a beacon of resistance against oppressive teaching methods. Conversely, they criticize Snape's draconian grading system and Umbridge's intrusive inspections, underscoring the challenges faced by both teachers and students in preserving Hogwarts' educational standards.

Furthermore, the casting discussion illuminates the complexities of adapting beloved characters for the screen, balancing actor capabilities with fan expectations to retain the magic of the original series.

Overall, this episode serves as an invaluable resource for fans seeking deeper understanding and analysis of Order of the Phoenix, providing thoughtful commentary and fostering an interactive community around the Wizarding World.

Transcript

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[Andrew]

Welcome to Mugglecast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom, where we go chapter by chapter through the Harry Potter books and keep you updated on the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show. And this week we have some TV casting news and everyone needs to be ready for inspection because we are diving into Order of The Phoenix, chapter 15, the Hogwarts High Inquisitor. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Laura]

I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

And we have a Mugglecast listener and Slug Club supporter over on Patreon joining us this week. Jordan. Welcome to the show, Jordan.

[Jordan]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you here. Can we get your fandom id?

[Jordan]

Yes, of course. So my favorite book is Order of the Phoenix. So very excited to be discussing it today. My favorite movie is the Deathly Hallows Part 2, just because of the memories I have around it when it came out. My house is Hufflepuff, so yay. And my patronus is a dolphin and I would consider my Favorite control freak, probably Hermione. I don't know if you consider her a control freak, but in the first couple of books I consider her maybe slight control freak. I couldn't think of anyone else.

[Laura]

Yeah, no, I, I tend to agree. Hermione has some control freakish tendencies. I think we can all agree with that.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I was like, is this prompt a little too harsh? But Jordan was like, no, I'm good with it. It's cool. Let's roll with it. So I was like, o well, I wanted to. We like to shake up the questions depending on the chapter. And I thought with Umbridge stepping in and becoming the Hogwarts High Inquisitor, it was an appropriate, if slightly extreme question this week for the fandom id. Well, thanks again, Jordan, for being here and we're looking forward to having you contribute today. And thanks for your support over on Patreon.

[Jordan]

You're very welcome.

[Andrew]

So before we get into chapter by chapter, there is some pretty significant news concerning the Harry Potter TV show. John Lithgow is nearing a deal to play Dumbledore in the TV adaptation. This is interesting on multiple levels. First of all, we had previously told listeners that Mark Rylance was in discussions for the role, but that evidently has fallen through. So because there was somebody else in the mix and they fell through, maybe John Lithgow will fall through as well, but I don't know. It seems like he's in final discussions. He's a little further down the road than Mark Rylance was. He has a storied career in Hollywood. I will also note he is American and with the films it was an all British cast. What have you all seen him in and how do you feel about this news?

[Laura]

Actually, I'm kind of excited. Very interested to see what this will look like. John Lithgow is an amazing actor. I haven't seen everything he's done, but I have seen him in the Crown where he played Winston Churchill. Simon Dexter where he played serial killer for a season. Obviously he's Lord Farquaad and Shrek. He is someone who has a very broad range and. And I actually think it could work really well. I thought when I saw this, I saw this earlier today, I thought for sure, oh, it's just another casting rumor like we always see. And it was because to your point, Andrew, he's not British. I immediately wrote it off because I think we were all under operating under the impression that we were going to get an entirely British cast again.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

But if the floodgates are open, I want Tom Hanks as we sleep in. I want. Who else can we really shoe in here?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Now we gotta, we gotta. American fantasy cast this.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Series evidently now.

[Eric]

Well, especially with, you know, the adult characters. They used all the British actors that existed for the movies.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Well. And so many of them are gone now.

[Eric]

That's, you know, that's an interesting point. I want to echo what you said, Laura, about John Lithgow being amazing. I probably first saw him on the TV series 3rd Rock from the Sun. But I was also watching Dexter actually, because of his performance in Dexter. That was the last season of Dexter I watched because it was so terrifying. In a good way. In a good way. I was just like, wow, this man can act. But he. I think in terms of Dumbledore and I love him as an actor, I'm kind of wishing he skews a little old and he skews a little less weird. I want an actor who's weird. And John Lithgow is very good and very straight and very serious and I mean, he's been doing this for 80 years. Does he really need, you know, this credit which is another 10 years of film of work potentially. He's actually at age 80, 10 years older than Richard Harris was in Sorcerer's Stone.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

And we know how that ended up.

[Andrew]

So I wanted to bring this up too. It seems risky. With all due respect to him, and I'm sure he's a healthy, happy guy, he wants this role, but he's 79 years old and this is a 10 year film project. Of course he won't be totally involved with Deathly Hallows, but he'll. He's going to be involved for the majority of this. And why are they casting somebody so old? Because to your point, Eric, they might, they might run into a Richard Harris situation.

[Laura]

Again, sorry it's dark, but this honestly makes me wonder. I'm going to go back to something I theorized a year ago. I think at this point it really makes me wonder if there is a larger plan to recast principal roles throughout the series just because we do know it's going to be complicated with the kids aging and trying to make that fit with this 10 year project and not shoot when they're too young or shoot when they're getting too old for various points in it. I wonder if the plan is that with the principal cast, they're going to have a very similar setup as they did in the Crown, where they recast every couple of seasons.

[Andrew]

But those were time jumps. They're not time jumping with this series. Maybe they're more willing to recast if they need to. They might be thinking, well, we can't repeat the success twice that we had with the Harry Potter films, where we had basically the entire cast all the way through. It's just unrealistic for us to pull this off a second time.

[Eric]

I would hope that they. And what I thought they were going to do is probably cast a person who skews a little young and age him up, because that you can never go raw. You can't go backwards to a certain extent. John Lithgow was the pastor in Footloose. Not the remake, the original Footloose. That movie's older than I am. Okay, like. And I like John Lithgow. My favorite thing he's done was he was the dad in Rise of the Planet of the Apes, the. The first movie of the remake Planet of the Apes series. And he's great in that. He's great in everything. I don't know how I feel about this being in the world of Harry Potter.

[Jordan]

Well, I know him mainly from How I Met yout Mother. He was Barney's dad, so he came on later in the series. I have mixed feelings. I think he would be great as, like, a movie. One and two Dumbledore. So, like the calm, collected one. But when you go into, like, yelling about putting your name in the Goblet of Fire, I don't think he would be the right cast, which we don't want that anyways.

[Laura]

So, yeah, they could keep him calm.

[Eric]

They could actually keep him. That's what I want an actor to deliver that line calmly.

[Jordan]

I think he would make a great calm Dumbledore. From the roles I've seen him in.

[Eric]

We do deserve, I think, to see as audiences, the younger Dumbledore that first started the order, whether it's in flashback or not. The. The Dumbledore that, you know, kind of first laid the groundwork and the chess pieces for, you know, everything that comes in the series. The Dumbledore that faced, you know, that was essentially a professor when dipit first had to nearly close the school for Chamber of Secrets. Like, if you look at Mike, at. At what they did for Richard Harris in that flashback with Tom Riddle, you know, it was awful. It was bad. And I know technology has come a long way, but again, I think my approach would be to cast young and age them up. I get. Get a little. Little of that quirky vibrance. Again. John Lythgoe's one of the best actors alive. I don't necessarily like him in this role?

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

See, I would say give him a chance to be quirky and do the, the book Dumbledore justice. We'll just have to see how he's going to play it and how he's going to be directed to play it. He seems to be a very versatile actor to me, given all of his credit, so I'm excited to see what he does with it. And we have yet to hear his existing relationship with Harry Potter. Is he secretly a huge Harry Potter fan? He's going to reveal this during a press tour or something? Has his family always been big Harry Potter fans? I'm sure a lot more will come to light that will help us help anyone who might be skeptical right now feel better about this. And I think, as we've discussed on the show before, it says a lot to me that they seem to be casting around Dumbledore. This was the first casting rumor we had heard about back when we heard about Mark Rylance. So it, it seems to me that they're putting a lot of weight into who they cast as Dumbledore and they must have their reasons for choosing him. I just hope John's doctors provided a note to WB assuring them that he's in good shape for the foreseeable future.

[Eric]

I want Zac Efron as James Potter. Let's see who is what is your American fan casting now that we know.

[Andrew]

Timothy Chalamet for Harry Potter.

[Eric]

Timothy Shalame.

[Laura]

They're going to try and get Timothy Chalamet in here.

[Eric]

You know, Andrew, I don't know if you mentioned that this article is from Deadline. I trust them for news. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

It's reputable for sure. The reporting. So we'll see. Well, listeners and viewers, stick with Mugglecast for continuing coverage of the Harry Potter TV show. Be sure to follow us on YouTube and in your favorite podcast app so you can stay up to date on the latest developments. And as we continue to analyze the books and cover the Harry Potter TV show, we could really use your support at patreon.com mugglecast your financial support allows us to run this show and in exchange we offer you instant access to lots of great benefits like more mugglecast. We release two bonus mugglecast episodes every month on our Patreon and in these we have fun talking about different aspects of the Harry Potter fandom outside of chapter by chapter on this week's bonus episode. What are we doing, Laura?

[Laura]

We're going to be talking about the educational decrees that should have been. We realized in planning for this chapter that we don't know what most of the educational decrees before Umbridge got involved were. So we're going to try and fill in the blanks and solve for some of Hogwarts many security nightmares.

[Andrew]

Yeah, and fun fact about bonus Mugglecast episodes and ad free episodes which are another Patreon perk. Once you pledge to our Patreon, you can listen to all these audio perks right within your favorite podcast app. You don't need to listen through Patreon or a website or anywhere else. You can get all of our best content right through your favorite podcast app. So it's very easy once you become a patron. Thanks everybody, including Jordan who supports [e-mail] mukkocast and now let's get into chapter by chapter. This week we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 15, the Hogwarts High Inquisitor. But first, Eric, take us back in time.

[Eric]

Yes, we last discussed chapter 15 on episode 451 for January 28th of 2020. The title of that episode was Murtlap Milken. And if, if you have any questions as to how that came to be, look no further than this time. Turner clip three times should do a living. Good luck.

[Andrew]

What the.

[Eric]

Episode 451.

[Andrew]

What exactly is episode Essence of Mert Lab? Like what do they do to that poor creature to. To get the essence out of it? Like do they squeeze it?

[Eric]

You slit its throat?

[Andrew]

No, you take a knee, you extract some of his inner goo. He's got tentacles, these Murtlaps. So maybe you just pluck a tentacle off of his back. You squeeze the tentacle like you would maybe with the squid. Yeah, like you milk it like a cow. The egg comes out. You milk Burt lap Milk. Milk.

[Eric]

Mysterious thing.

[Laura]

Time.

[Eric]

Only the real questions on Mogulcast.

[Andrew]

I was gonna say. I'm glad that is not in our rundown today. I don't want to talk about that again.

[Laura]

No, I, I gotta say that's not an aspect of this chapter where we're gonna spend really any time today probably. But what we are going to talk about to kick off the discussion is what is a High Inquisitor? I think we all have some sense of what this means, right? But I got curious and wondered what other examples we might be able to draw from to give us a full picture of what a High Inquisitor is. So according to our AI overlords, a High Inquisitor typically refers to a high ranking official within an inquisition, often considered the leader or chief investigator with significant authority over other Inquisitors, usually tasked with hunting down and interrogating individuals deemed heretical or dangerous to the established order. In popular culture, this term is most commonly associated with the Stone Star wars universe, where a High Inquisitor is a senior member of the Inquisitorius, a group dedicated to hunting down surviving Jedi after the Jedi Orders fall directly reporting to Darth Vader. So that's good information. I didn't realize that Star wars was better known for having a High Inquisitor than Harry Potter, but today I did.

[Eric]

It first, you know.

[Laura]

Did it?

[Eric]

Yeah, I mean, yes. I want to say yes.

[Laura]

When did Star wars come out?

[Eric]

Well, so in terms of the Inquisitorus or whatever they would call it, that didn't probably get fleshed out till Clone wars at the very earliest. And that was after book five came out.

[Andrew]

Eric just out nerded Laura. She didn't see that coming.

[Laura]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Eric]

Out specifically about Order 66 and everything.

[Laura]

That that like, okay, I don't know that. But when. When was it established in the canon? Is the question not when was it fleshed out, it's when was it established in Star Wars?

[Eric]

I I. In the films, there is no mention of the Inquisitors.

[Laura]

Okay, well, there we go. So I guess Harry Potter did it first. Somebody tell Google AI Gemini.

[Eric]

Also, Mark, don't me if I'm wrong, Hamill, please. Me, please.

[Laura]

Well, anyway, the reason we're talking about what a High Inquisitor is is because the Daily Prophet arrives at breakfast the following morning after they read this letter from Percy. And Dolores Umbridge has a big front page article talking about how she has been appointed as High Inquisitor to Hogwarts. And the article in the Prophet goes on to say that in the dead of night, the Ministry passed surprise legislation, giving itself an unprecedented level of control at Hogwarts. Which is why Umbridge has appoint has been appointed. So in thinking about timelines here, because we were talking last chapter about why is Percy sending this owl in the dead of night? Is there some reason he wants Ron to be alone when he reads it? Is that the timing for it? This just kind of seems to me like Percy heard the news before it was public and immediately went to write to Ron.

[Andrew]

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

That'S how I picture that. But Eric, I think you think Percy may have gotten more of a heads up.

[Eric]

Percy is quoted in this article, right? And so he probably was instrumental in its creation and knew well in advance that it was coming he probably knew about the law that Fudge was passing since he's his assistant now. Also, Meg had an idea that kind of corrects what we were talking about last week about Umbridge reporting to Fudge. But it's possible that Umbridge or Fudge specifically wanted Percy to write to Ron because there's that part of Percy's letter that says do let Umbridge know what Harry's up to. Basically spy on him. And that's kind of the whole. Even though Percy would frame it as if he like just has Ron's best interests at heart, it ultimately comes back to exactly what Arthur Weasley said was Fudge's reason for making Percy his assistant is trying to get the goods on Dumbledore, on Harry Potter and furthers that agenda. So complete next level, deep dive on the motivations for some of these characters. But yeah, whether Percy was asked or not, he has known about this and he kind of was bragging about the fact that it was going to be front page news.

[Laura]

He thinks it's a good thing for Hogwarts.

[Jordan]

I agree with Eric. I think Percy's going to do anything to make himself feel important, look important, be important in writing to his brother. But this news that is coming out the next day is a good way to make himself feel important.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And Laura, you mentioned something else I wanted to flag. You said that the prophet says that this was passed at the ministry in the dead of night. And this is always a major sign that the ministry or whoever is passing anything in the middle of the night, doing something in the middle of the night, was trying to sneak this by some people and pull a fast one. So they were trying to get this by maybe others at the Ministry. Maybe the. The couple of people who do resign in light of this news and or trying to sneak it by Dumbledore before he can work his sources at the Ministry and maybe stop this from happening.

[Laura]

Exactly. We also learned this isn't the first time this has happened either. The article goes on to say that on August 30, Educational Decree 22 was passed which allows the Ministry to appoint someone for a teaching post if the headmaster can't find anyone. And now we have our explanation for why Umbridge got assigned to Defense against the Dark Arts. It makes sense, especially following the events of Goblet of Fire, why Dumbledore would be having trouble filling that post.

[Eric]

And they waited till the last minute on that one too. August 30th. It's a day before September 1st. Like, was fudge just messaging Dumbledore going, you got anybody yet? You got anybody yet? You got anybody yet? Okay, here's a new law.

[Jordan]

But do you think that maybe the Ministry has some hand in them not being able to fill the position just to get Umbridge in there? That's my fault. Maybe they were behind the scenes saying, maybe no one is filling the position. Let's get Unbridge in there. I think the Ministry has some hand in that.

[Eric]

I like that. The idea that they're sort of manufacturing a shortage of teachers. I also wonder if. I mean, it makes perfect sense why Dumbledore would have a shortage of teachers applying. He's mentioned how it gets harder every year. For obvious reasons, they keep dying or going away. But I do wonder if there are qualified candidates that Dumbledore is not asking. Now, I know I'm thinking ahead to next year, and I know that Slughorn teaches Potions, but here's an example of a retired former teacher that Dumbledore decides to have back. And everything that, you know, he presumably could have done that year sooner gotten Snape in the DA job for earlier. So it just, to me, seems like maybe there aren't no candidates, but maybe Dumbledore is really hedging his bets on the position actually being cursed. And he's like, I'm gonna let the Ministry do this, but no matter what, she'll be out of there in a year, so it'll be fine.

[Laura]

Like, oh, that's funny. Yeah, I can see. I mean, that's a very chess mastery move that I could see Dumbledore pulling.

[Eric]

It's very John Lithgow.

[Laura]

Yeah. See? More evidence.

[Andrew]

No, I think that makes a lot of sense. Like, yeah, she's coming in and it's going to be hell, but at least it is only one year. And then in terms of Slughorn, Eric, do you think it's something where he's like, I'll only call him in if I absolutely, positively run out of other options and then, oh, sorry, buddy, but I need somebody and I don't want another pick from the Ministry.

[Eric]

Right. Well, he gets Slughorn on board by dangling Harry Potter in front of him. But he could have done that at any one of the previous six years to get Slughorn back. Teaching Potions and moving, maneuvering Snape into the position. But it works out perfectly in the next book because that's the year that Dumbledore knows his own days are numbered and that he's got to get Snape to kind of do everything Snape has to do in the next book.

[Jordan]

Yeah, I Think Dumbledore did all on purpose because he knew he was dying?

[Andrew]

Jordan, where do you fall in the grand Dumbledore debates? Are you pro Dumbledore?

[Jordan]

I have mixed feelings about Dumbledore.

[Andrew]

Critical of him. Okay, mixed feelings.

[Laura]

That's the right answer.

[Jordan]

Yeah, I love him, but I also do not like a lot of his decisions.

[Eric]

Okay, I think honestly that we're meant to question Dumbledore. That's the whole reason that's such a big subplot of book seven is questioning his credibility. So I think any reader that's skeptical at least of Dumbledore is doing exactly what was intended.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's fair. Something else I wanted to bring up from the Prophet article. They note that some say Hogwarts has failing standards but I'm wondering what these standards are. I don't think they're academic standards. Right. Because there doesn't seem to be an issue with students either struggling to graduate or struggling post Hogwarts. So is this just more bluster from the Prophet or their alleged sources just to further discredit Dumbledore?

[Eric]

Alleged sources is a good way of putting it. Yeah, because then you look at who they ask for their articles and it's like Lucius Malfoy, you know, former deputy. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Lucius from his mansion said the following.

[Eric]

From his luxurious mansion. Glad I'm surprised they didn't mention the albino peacocks in this article while stroking.

[Andrew]

His albino peacocks said the following.

[Eric]

Yeah, it's just. It's slander and libel, I guess because it's in. In writing. But.

[Andrew]

But when I'm reading, if I'm a parent with a student at Hogwarts and I'm reading these types of articles and I'm hearing about failing standards I'm wondering what standards are they talking about? And I would like to think that witch and wizard parents are reading these articles from the Prophet with a critical eye and questioning what they're reading because there's some clear BS in here.

[Eric]

Yeah. Yeah, but it's their only news source. The Prophet is their only source of news. It's been reporting all summer. Done like an extensive hit job on Dumbledore, the leader of Hogwarts, the headmaster of Hogwarts. So the failing standards, the fact that there's no sources cited on this shows that they don't have to do that sort of thing. They've already. The poison has sunk in at this.

[Laura]

Point and to be honest, when they're talking about failing standards they're not really bringing up the actual academics I mean, maybe with Hagrid but apart from that, the quality of the academics isn't really what's on the table. They're actually using falling standards at the school as a stand in for we believe that there are subversive activities and subversive characters being allowed to be around our children.

[Eric]

We're gonna protect the children. It's just thinly veiled racism, you know, in many cases against werewolves, half breeds.

[Laura]

Yeah. Well, we here at the show do need to be able to pay our bills so that they don't come at us and say that we have failing standards. So we'll be right back after these words from our sponsors.

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[Eric]

The t It should be wise and gamut because it was whiten gamut. But I will say Wizengamo until the day I die.

[Andrew]

Pride for me was in good mo. Yeah, I think that's how I want to say it too.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Eric]

The original was the Whitens in the uk yeah.

[Laura]

But language evolves.

[Eric]

Call them the Wiz. Whiz is funny. The Wiz.

[Andrew]

Two members of the Wiz. Not to be confused with the musical.

[Laura]

I was gonna say that gets confusing. Well, anyway, I'm just gonna say wasn't good M.O. sorry, not sorry. So these two members resign in protest at the announcement of the High Inquisitor. They think that this is a clear representation of government. Government overreach. And I think that we would all agree here on this panel. But I wanted to ask how far is too far for the Ministry to be involved at Hogwarts? It is a public school. We do know that it is funded by taxes. Presumably it's funded by the Ministry. So what should Ministry oversight of Hogwarts look like?

[Andrew]

I think there does need to be some sort of reset and hopefully there was after the events of the Wizarding War, the second one. I would just like to see a better relationship between the Ministry and the school and the headmaster or headmistress at the time. Appoint a team at the Ministry who is mutually agreed upon by both sides, meaning the school and the Ministry, and then try to maintain as good a relationship as possible. Right now it doesn't seem like there's really a healthy relationship between the school and the government and there's room for improvement.

[Eric]

There's supposed to be a board of governors we hear about from time to time. Lucius Malfoy bribed all of them in book two.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's a wreck.

[Laura]

Well, is that like a wreck?

[Eric]

But at least it was established. That's probably one of the earlier educational decrees. The one thing I'll point to as far as is this overreach is that there's only been 21 educational decrees signed into law or 22 and 23 in this chapter. And that presumably goes back to either the beginning of Hogwarts a thousand years ago or the beginning of the Ministry of Magic with if that happened later, that might have been like a little later actually. So 21 educational degrees over a thousand years and now Umbridge is about to pass like 30 more. You know, is. Is absolutely insane. Power, hungriness, etc. Like, it was probably one of them was probably like the right of Hogwarts to provide food for its children or so, you know, Crazy. Not like the student groups forbidden and the, the heavy hand that Umbridge comes in with. So if it's not already outreach or overreach, it's about to be.

[Laura]

Totally.

[Andrew]

But maybe. Eric, these numbers that you present, and I'm glad you did this math here, imply that the relationship between the school and the ministry has actually been pretty good until recent years.

[Eric]

Yeah, there's no basis for comparison either. It's not like there's other schools in Europe. It's not that this ministry has like a board of education that's going to have standards that are set for, for all participating schools and educational places like that that doesn't exist. And so instead you have an opportunity, I guess, for this very politicized like no, you can't do things this way, you have to do things this way kind of approach that Fudge is now trying to cram through.

[Laura]

You know, it's crazy to me that we never heard anything about a new educational decree after Moaning Myrtle got killed and then 50 years later after it happened again. Like that is odd to me.

[Jordan]

Like in the States we have school boards, the government, I mean they're not hands on, but they, we do. Well have the Department of Education at the moment. So. Yeah, I mean I kind of agree with all of y'all. There has been involvement, but not to the extent where it's getting ready to be.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, and unfortunately for Harry, his day is not about to get any better. In fact, he's about to see a whole lot more of Umbridge throughout the day. Unfortunately for him and for us. But before that happens, he goes to our favorite Potions Masters class where Snape hands back homework informing the students that he has graded their homework on using the OWL exam rubric. Basically the O for outstanding, E for exceeds Expectations, A for Acceptable, P for poor, D for Dreadful, and maybe T for troll. We don't get confirmation of whether or not anyone in the class gets that's a T for troll. But Harry does get a D. Ron gets a P. And I think we're led to assume Hermione gets an A.

[Andrew]

Yes, she did. Of course she's A no it all.

[Eric]

It's crazy if even Snape can't find enough wrong to give her a lower grade. But she's good at what she does.

[Laura]

Honestly, that probably means that she's actually better than an A. Like I would imagine if Slughorn graded that assignment for her, he would give her higher marks.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and an A isn't that good on this scale. It's basically a C, right?

[Laura]

Hey, C's get degrees.

[Andrew]

That's true, but Hermione wants more.

[Eric]

Here's the thing. I'm starting to think.

[Laura]

Listen to me kids.

[Eric]

I'm starting to think Snape is not a nice guy. I'm also starting to think that he should have warned the students that this would be graded as such. Like here's a wake up call, you're all. Failing is not instructive of what they could do better. I mean unless he's writing one page of parchment length letter to each student about how their essay could be improved to OWL standard, then all he's doing is being a jerk.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's not fair. He should have shared that this would be the grading scale he'd be using prior to them working on this because he's basically pulling the rug out from under them. Yeah, it's a, it's a nice practice lesson, but tell us up front that this is how you're going to grade.

[Eric]

Our Scare tactics, shock tactics. This is all in Snape's repertoire. I'm starting to think he really enjoys being cruel.

[Laura]

Totally. And as a result, you know, he threatens that on the next round of homework he's going to hand out detentions to all of those people who got Ds. And he, he's specifically digging at Harry here. Yeah, so yeah, it's, it's rough. But of course Hermione is very inspired by this to go all in on OWL talk. And we know owls are ordinary wizarding levels. These are the exams that fifth years have to sit at the end of the year. And she clearly wants to talk about exam strategy. She's clearly very interested in what grades Harry and Ron got because Snape basically tells them when he gives them back the assignment. This is a really good baseline prediction of how you're going to do at the end of the year. So good luck. And Hermione is very clearly saying, you know, even if you get a passing score, that, that's really encouraging at this stage. Clearly trying to angle for their grades. Ron's finally like, Hermione, if you want to know our grades, just ask what are. And it is an uncomfortable conversation that is thankfully interrupted by Fred and George and Lee Jordan, which is where we hear about T for Troll as well. I don't know that we ever got confirmation that this is a real grade. Does anyone know?

[Eric]

No, it's a joke from Fred and George.

[Jordan]

I think if it was a real grade, Harry would have gotten in on his essay.

[Eric]

That's a great point.

[Laura]

That is a good snape.

[Eric]

Yeah, it's offensive to trolls. That's not a reason why they wouldn't do it. But, you know, I don't know, being compared to a troll would just ruin my academic career.

[Laura]

Well, Harry's continuing along with his classes, and unfortunately for him, this is where Umbridge comes back into his day. So he and Ron have divination with Professor Trelawney, and guess who's there but the pink nightmare herself. And I was wondering, because we know Umbridge is here to inspect Trelawney, part of her job as high inquisitor is she is allowed to go inspect teachers in their classrooms. Have any of us ever had to deal with being inspected while on the job?

[Eric]

I've had a few. We at work, they call them, like, ride alongs, where somebody from corporate wants to see what we do. And so I simultaneously have to, like, show someone the rope slash training. But also I'm getting evaluated on how well I know my job or do it. And I try and not betray any ounce of, oh, I'm nervous here. But yeah, I mean, you gotta ultimately show these higher ups a good time or ultimately your boss is gonna hear about it.

[Laura]

I. So in another life, honestly, at this point, I was a teacher, and I definitely had classroom inspections. Those are pretty normal. They can be for assessing the quality of your lessons, or it can also just be for new teachers who are shadow to get some experience. But I will say I've kind of been on both sides of the equation with classroom inspections, where some people, when they come to. They come to watch a class, they're, like, invisible. They're really good at entering the classroom so sleuthly and being so quiet that you and the students barely even notice they're there. They're not intrusive in any way. And then you have the ones who make a point of walking in in the middle of your class while you're. You're actively lecturing and sitting down and clacking on their keyboard as they take notes the entire time. Those are very stressful. And I honestly kind of felt for Trelawney in this chapter because of that Experience. Experience.

[Andrew]

This is. This is a different kind of evil that we are seeing from Umbridge in the scene with Trelawney. And McGonagall handles it better. But Umbridge tries to mess around with her in the same way she did Trelawney. She's quizzing Trelawney in front of all of the students and then making her try to make a prediction, too, on.

[Eric]

Demands, on commands I don't love any of this. Of course. Right. We're supposed to feel sad a little bit for Trelawney. Also, she did not really have any ability to defend herself on these things. Like, there's a point to be made where it's like the inner eye doesn't see on command. Okay, great, she says that. But there. If Trelawney were a reasonable teacher, like, a decently accomplished, like, teacher, she could explain the theory in a way. Like, she has to resort to predicting Umbridge's ill fate. And then she makes a big show of predicting other class members ill fate in the hopes of amusing Umbridge, who it actually should work on, even though it doesn't, because Umbridge is cruel. But at the same time, you could see how Umbridge falls short later in the chapter for both McGonagall and for Grubbly Plank. And so had Trelawney, I don't know, had a different approach. You can see it going a lot better than it went here. But because she really is a fraud, unfortunately, there's not a lot that can be done for this situation.

[Laura]

Yeah, I found myself thinking Trelawney could have played this off way differently by just sort of assuming those mystic tones she takes and putting on a smug expression and saying, oh, my dear, the inner eye does not see upon command. And, you know, best be wary those who try to push it, or something like that. Instead of seeming nervous and desperate.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

I mean, everything in her body language, her tone, the way she reacts, it just. Yeah, not helpful.

[Andrew]

Well, and she does not try to make that excuse, but the way that she does is messy. And honestly, I would buy it. The inner eye cannot see upon command. That makes sense to me. You can't pull any old prediction out of a hat whenever you want. That doesn't seem right. If the guy in the right moment.

[Eric]

Well, she could immediately have brewed up a batch of tea and then read the leaves and told Umbridge what she meant, like. But there's no confidence, and this is hard. Some people don't do well under pressure. I'm a person who, like, unfortunately thrives under pressure. This is like, I'd be enthralled and engrossed in trying to combat the issue, but Trelawney's gonna crumble.

[Andrew]

Now, that all said, Trelawney's prediction about Umbridge being in grave danger isn't totally wrong. I mean, she gets into trouble by end of the book, and, look, everybody ends up in grave danger at some point in their life. So Trelawney did her best in the moment. And again, it's just. It's the way Umbridge handled this was a different type of evil than what we've seen from her so far because there. This was not the right place to be. Interviewing her in front of her students while she's trying to teach a class.

[Laura]

Yeah, that's the other thing, too. I mean, Harry and Ron are able to eavesdrop very easily because Umbridge is just trailing Trelawney around the room while Trelawney is actually trying to engage with her students. And I mean, I think this all boils down to. And Eric, I think you were alluding to this. Umbridge just doesn't think divination is a serious subject. And divination as a subject is. I think if she had enough time, it would likely end up on the chopping block. Because she doesn't understand it. Right.

[Eric]

Yeah. She's looking to crank out some wins. She's looking to discredit as much of Dumbledore's staff as possible. That's what this is all about. Because a poor reflection of the staff is a poor reflection on Dumbledore. And so, unfortunately, like, not only is Trelawney being assessed, she's being assessed by somebody who actively wants to find fault. And Trelawney's essentially the weakest link. That's why she's the first one to go. She makes it really easy, unfortunately for somebody who is evil, to ouster.

[Jordan]

Yeah, I think she already went in there knowing she wanted to get rid of her.

[Laura]

Yeah, a hundred percent. I agree. Jordan, do you think that Umbridge came to Hogwarts with a target list already? Of the. The people she wanted to get rid of? The subjects she wanted to get rid of?

[Jordan]

Yes, I can see the point of that. Or her having that in her mind. Maybe not exactly professors, but. I mean, Dumbledore did hire Charani to come to Hogwarts for protection during the First War. So maybe that's. She heard that rumor and that's where the target came from.

[Andrew]

You could also see word getting back from school to the students, to the parents. You know, Charlie, her class. Yeah, it's interesting, but she's not all there. She's a little out there. You could see rumors about any teacher spreading, well, outside of Hogwarts if they're there long enough.

[Eric]

Also, if we kind of ascribe a bigger motive to the Ministry, and this year is all about the Ministry wanting to disarm the students that might rise up against them, what better way to make them even more powerless than to remove their ability to see the future. Assuming divination was correct. Assuming divination is is a real thing that you can do as a witch or wizard. I'm sure it is actually not the way Trelawney teaches it, but the the fact that it's another opportunity for the ministry to make themselves the almighty authority about what is going on, what's going to happen, what things mean. Any class or head of a class that reports to tell you what things mean, other than what the official company line is, is bound to be threatened in this kind of regime.

[Laura]

Okay, well, I predict that this is not going to be the last classroom inspection we see this chapter. So we'll be back we'll be back with more Umbridge in just a moment.

[Andrew]

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[Andrew]

Your prediction was right, Laura.

[Laura]

Unfortunately, right after a divination, the full trio has defense against the Dark Arts and we're going to get to see Hermione the Rebel rise up once again in this lesson. She is not about to take this nonsense because Umbridge comes in and instructs the class to spend the class hour reading chapter two from their textbook book. So it's very clear that Umbridge does not plan to actually teach a lesson. She's just going to bring these children in here, instruct them to read from a book and not speak to each other for an hour and not get any magical practice. And Hermione is not having it. She raises her hand and Umbridge makes a point of walking over to her to speak to her directly so that they don't have across classroom exchange like they did last time. And when Hermione says yo, I already read this chapter, Umbridge says move on to chapter three and Hermione Says, you've activated my trap card. I read the entire book and this is a moment where I really, I feel like Hermione orchestrated this because she could predict. She knew exactly how Umbridge was going to play this out. She knew Umbridge was going to challenge her and quiz her on specifics from the reading. Which of course I'm pretty sure Hermione has a photographic memory. She must, because she is able to recall immediately the, the problem here, and.

[Eric]

I do agree with you, like, Hermione was waiting for this. And I think one of her favorite things in the world is being asked something about a book that she read. Her problem is she, I guess decides to play and go in for that because ultimately it winds up with her getting penalized. Like, there was another way for her to. She's so angry at Umbridge. She's so angry at Umbridge for. And obviously so for giving them non practical lessons that she cannot contain herself. And so that's why when Umbridge is like, oh, read chapter two. And she's like, I did. Hermione adds, and I disagree with what Albert Slingard says. And it's like, okay, Hermione, like, Harry has an anger problem or like a temper problem. And like he always has to do the morally right thing in this chapter. But Hermione is not that far off. She has to. She's so furious with Umbridge, she's going to try and needle her while she's the subject of umbrella desire. And it doesn't work out well for Hermione.

[Laura]

No, she ends up losing points, but she ends up losing points for something that I would argue is actually modeling what a good lesson would look like by encouraging students to really interact with the materials that they're reading and hear different perspectives to really deepen their appreciation and understand the broader context in an applied setting. Like, Hermione is doing nothing wrong here.

[Andrew]

No. This is the beauty of podcasts, book clubs, school, in normal circumstances, having these healthy debates with constructive criticism we hear on the show, get emails from time to time. I can't believe you're criticizing xyz. It's again, one of our favorite taglines. We criticize because we care. It's good to have these debates. We can't just yes and everything and be like, that was all amazing. So yeah, I totally agree with Laura. It's, it's really awful that Umbridge doesn't want to hear any different approaches to what the author was writing in this book and to her lessons.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, and Harry, you know, Harry can't keep quiet either. So since he can't shut his mouth, guess what he gets in return?

[Andrew]

To not tell more lies.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah. Another week's detention.

[Andrew]

Yay.

[Laura]

Harry notes that the cut on the back of his hand is only just recently healed, so he's getting ready to go back in for that. And Harry really can't get a break because now he's in trouble with Angelina. She's the Gryffindor Quidditch captain now, and she's pretty ticked off that Harry's about to miss more Quidditch practice because he can't stop getting detention.

[Eric]

Yeah, can't stop. Won't stop. Am I right?

[Andrew]

Well, I understand her frustration here, because not only does he know that Angelina needs him at these practices, but McGonagall has also told Harry to keep it under control with Umbridge as well. And he can't help himself.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah, well. And McGonagall takes points.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

As well. She's like, harry, didn't I tell you? Didn't I talk to you about not fighting with Umbridge? Five points from Gryffindor Angry Harry.

[Andrew]

This book.

[Eric]

Well, he asked her why, and then she says, because I didn't think. The detentions alone set in. And I'm like, that's fair, actually.

[Andrew]

Yeah. If the. If the bleeding hand isn't going to do it, what will? A few extra points from McGonagall. I guess. Worse than pain.

[Eric]

Again, it's that peer pressure thing of, like, your house. This is why it would have been a good way to control Fred and George. Your. Your housemates are disappointed in you. If you lose points for your house, you have to answer to them as, like a social structure, peer issue thing.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

So.

[Andrew]

And you know what? To these points, Getting points stocked by McGonagall, being yelled at by Angelina can hurt more than his bleeding hand because he respects Angelina and McGonagall, he doesn't respect Umbridge.

[Eric]

Right. The only other thing I'll say about quizzes or Quidditch is. And Angelina's ire is that Harry's not really needed at practice because his role on the team doesn't interact with the other players, like, at all.

[Andrew]

But it helps build rapport.

[Eric]

And if you're down a chaser, okay, like the other two, it's not the same vibe. But as the Seeker, you only have work to do when the snitch is out there, and then you do your thing and you go home.

[Andrew]

You sound like Harry. Oh, I'm the chosen one. I don't. I don't need to be at practice. No, I mean, they'll do fine without me.

[Eric]

You know what I'm saying, though?

[Andrew]

Yeah. I'm just messing with you.

[Eric]

Yeah. The consequence of him not making practice is there's no one there to catch the fake snitch.

[Laura]

Yeah. I don't know. I have to imagine that Seekers must have an extra job during practice because of how much downtime they have.

[Jordan]

He's probably also.

[Laura]

I don't know what it would be.

[Jordan]

He's probably also seen as a leader on the pitch, too, so.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

So having someone.

[Andrew]

Maybe he's serving. Maybe he serves Stitch witches made by Harry and the Potters. They hand those out at Harry Potter cons.

[Eric]

That would be cool. Good reference.

[Laura]

Do we think it's reasonable for Harry to be mad at McGonagall here? Because he. He's kind of a little miffed when she walks away, and he has this thought of, like, I'm the one getting my hand sliced into. Why are you getting on my case? And I'm like, dude, she doesn't know because he won't tell her.

[Eric]

It comes down to that. And if he did tell McGonagall, Umbridge would disappear. She would literally. They. They would not find her body. And so it just is one of those things where Harry thinks he knows best and he wants to get all righteous and angry. Whatever. He's a teenager. We were all that way.

[Andrew]

What do you think McGonagall would have done to Umbridge?

[Eric]

Eric, you said transfigura in a way that no one would ever recognize her again.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Laura]

Oh, dear.

[Eric]

I mean, no, honestly, I'll backtrack all of what I just indicated, because McGonagall really does show everyone how it's done. Regarding Umbridge, the fact that McGonagall is inspected by Umbridge and essentially calls her out, calls Umbridge out on all of the interrupting, saying, how am I supposed. How are you supposed to get a good idea of what class is like if you keep him hemming, you know, during this class, Sit down and let me take control. She takes control of the class. The way you win against somebody like Umbridge is by being confident and by knowing your stuff. And resisting doesn't look like the way Harry does it. Resisting looks like the way McGonagall does it.

[Laura]

Yeah. McGonagall's approach is very much to make the experience as uncomfortable for Umbridge as she possibly can. It's not about trying to drive her out of the classroom. It's about making her look like a fool. And she does Very successfully. Do we think this is a more effective resistance method than student led protest at this stage?

[Andrew]

Yeah, because the other risk of really going for Umbridge's, Umbridge's jugular is Umbridge can potentially get rid of McGonagall, so she has to walk a careful line. And McGonagall's strategy seems to work because as we'll get to in a minute, she takes a different strategy with Grubbly Plank. She's, she's more hands off and watching the lesson until the end.

[Laura]

What do you think, Jordan? Do you think McGonagall is modeling a better method of resisting than what Harry's doing?

[Jordan]

I do. I think she, I don't think she'll ever respect McGonagall, but I think she respects that method more and it will get the situation further than the way Harry's doing it because the way Harry's going about it, she's just getting more angry and it's not helping anything. So I, I do think it's more effective.

[Eric]

Yeah, you can't get emotional. That's kind of where you fail is when you've gotten emotional. They've won.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And that's exactly the strategy that Harry's been taking. He doesn't want to show any pain when he's in the detentions though. The funny thing is he does get emotional elsewhere.

[Laura]

Well, to the point that was made, it feels like Umbridge is everywhere. I was reading this chapter and I was like, does this woman have a time Turner? Like, obviously she's not jumping around in time, but she's just everywhere. And I'm like, how is she doing this? So she is of course surveying care of magical creatures. And she seems way more interested in grilling Grubbly Plank about Hagrid's whereabouts than she does about the actual content of the class. And the class actually does Hagrid proud, which is a good moment. Umbridge goes around asking students questions and Harry notes that people answered reasonably well and seemed fairly knowledgeable on the subject. So that's actually a good reflection for Hagrid. But Umbrege definitely notes Dumbledore is very cagey about talking about where Hagrid is and when he'll be back. Grubbly Plank, do you know?

[Andrew]

No, No, I don't.

[Laura]

Yeah, I don't think she does.

[Andrew]

No, I don't think so either. As she says, Dumbledore just called me in and I didn't really hear any other details. She was like, yeah, sure, I'll, I'll show up. She just seems Very laid back. And I actually love this scene with Umbridge because we go from the intense encounters between Umbridge and McGonagall and Umbridge and Trelawney to this, where Grubbly Plank is sort of just like very laid back by it. She has a good interaction with Umbridge. Grubbly Plank, like we're saying, seems to be honest about not knowing where Hagrid is. And at the end, Umbridge tells her to expect her results in 10 days. And grubbly Plank just goes, jolly good. Like, she doesn't care. She's like, yeah, okay, fine.

[Eric]

Like, you ever know those people that, the older people that are, like, I don't know, former retirees or whatever, and they have, like, literally nothing going on at home. They're not sad about it, but, like, when they're asked to teach, they're just happy to do it. They come in, they do their thing, they leave. My mom is this person now just happy to come in and be at the school. School for as long as they're needed. They go home, they have a life outside of it, but it's not. There's no rushing, there's no deeper meaning. There's just.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Plank is this person who enjoys the.

[Andrew]

Work and just going along for the ride. She's, Yeah, I don't know. There's, there's a word for this, I, I that's escaping me right now. But, yeah, she's just very chill about the whole thing.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And it's great compared to the other two encounters, like I said.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, and she's, you know, she doesn't have a teaching post to lose. Right. She's a substitute, so the pressure is way lower for her. Yeah, she's gonna be like, oh, Ministry inspection. Okay, I know what I'm doing. But the subject of classroom injuries, of course, has to come up in care of magical creatures. And Malfoy is, of course, happy to jump to the front of the line on this one to talk about the vicious hippogriff attack that left him maimed a couple of years ago. And Harry, still unable to keep his mouth shut, says, well, yeah, that's because you were too stupid to listen to the directions. And what does he get another night.

[Eric]

Of, does it start with a D and does it end in E tension?

[Laura]

It's rough. But I wanted to ask, I think it is interesting that she brings up the classroom injuries that have admittedly happened in this class. Do we think Umbridge is addressing any other actual security concerns at Hogwarts? Because I think we've established on this show that she really should. There are actual things to worry about.

[Andrew]

I think learning what happened to Draco is a is cause for concern that should be investigated further. She needs to get the true story about what happened there. Not yet, Laura. I think as we continue going through this book we might see some other concerns that are more valid. But at the moment nothing is really jumping out to me other than Trelawney's reliability.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And that's not exactly a security issue, but it is a valid education issue for sure.

[Laura]

Well, I am going to give a shout out to the essence of Murtlap here as we reach the end of the chapter. Just because we, we gave it that shout out at the start of the discussion. So I felt like I needed to bookend it, but that's because Harry comes back from another night's detention and Hermione has the essence of Murtlap all ready for Harry's poor bloody, aching hand. And as they're sitting there and he's soaking his hand, Hermione takes the rebellious streak to another level. And this chapter ends with her positing to Harry that they should learn Defense against the Dark Arts from him since no one else is actually going to teach them anything about this subject.

[Andrew]

What this, this book is so long because of this scene. Like Ron and Harry can't figure out what Hermione is actually trying to say here. It like goes around in circles a little too long.

[Eric]

Well, yes, but I knowing, I guess that the book was gonna turn in this direction. It's satisfying as though finally, okay, we got this out of the way because I think realistically, organically, it had all of these things had to sit mostly with Hermione, but also with the whole student body in order for there to be a need where everyone's like, oh yeah, I'm going to sign up for lessons. They have to start to see how at the very least, Umbridge sucks. They, they wouldn't have done it September 2nd if they got, you know, an invitation to go take defense lessons. They needed this time to really see what the issues were and to give Harry a chance. The few outbursts that he's had have actually probably peaked people's interest, which is what we see in the next chapters has happened. So it needed time to sit in. So I'm glad that we can now move forward.

[Andrew]

Well, and don't get me wrong, I like what Hermione says by the end of this, explaining to Harry why he actually is a perfect fit for this role and Harry experiences imposter syndrome here.

[Eric]

He.

[Andrew]

He. Before Hermione gives him a good talk about this, he says, everything I've done was just luck. And I wanted to do a bit of make the real life connection here. Have you three also experienced imposter syndrome, where maybe you've chalked up some of what you've done in your life to luck? I mean, I think it's fair to say that we've been lucky, taking this podcast as an example, but there is a lot of skill here that's gone into this show over the years. It takes reliability, it takes a lot of planning. It takes a lot of reading and analysis in advance, but yet I still chalk some of it up to luck. It's hard sometimes to accept that what you've done took a lot of effort outside of just luck.

[Eric]

That's a great point, and well said. I mean, Micah leased a whole office building in downtown Manhattan when we didn't even know him yet in order to get on this show and be successful for the news.

[Andrew]

Talking about the news office.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, the news office. Yeah. The Mogocast News center in New York. That was his doing. And look at him now.

[Andrew]

Does imposter syndrome get y'all sometimes?

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, how can it not? I think that's a pretty common experience for people, whether it's like you're on a podcast or it's just in your day job, too. Like, I don't know, anytime. Like, I have a younger brother, for example, and so there will definitely be times where, like, if he asks for my advice on something, I will be like, I am not remotely qualified to answer this question because I still don't know the answer to this question. You know, I think it's a normal. It's a normal part of life.

[Eric]

Familiarize yourself with the possibility that everyone around you doesn't know the answer either.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah, everybody.

[Laura]

Life gets a lot easier when you realize that.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

One of my favorite Michelle Obama quotes, and actually one of my favorite quotes ever, is Michelle Obama said, maybe while promoting a book, or she said it in a book, one of her books. She was like, I have met some of the most powerful, famous people in the world, and let me tell you, they are no better than you are. And her point was, like, everybody has their issues. Nobody is better than anyone else. I was like, wow, that's refreshing. If she's met everybody in the world, basically, and this was one of her big takeaways, that's pretty cool.

[Eric]

That strikes me, though, meeting another group or meeting people that I have high esteem for and finding they're just people. We're all just people.

[Andrew]

Yeah, but Harry, you're somebody who could lead a class.

[Eric]

Harry is somebody that could lead a. Yeah, he manages to make it interesting.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, and also what it really is more like is it's like a club that Harry's the leader of. And, you know, they do point out to him, hey, the whole reason we're all so concerned about Umbridge teaching Defense against the Dark Arts is because we know what's out there waiting. We know Voldemort's out there. She's never had to deal with him, and you have. So we'll take your experience over, you know, whatever theoretical classroom stuff she's trying to foist upon us. That's not going to be helpful.

[Eric]

That would be a good point. Even if Umbridge was teaching them things like if the ministry line was still that Voldemort isn't back, but they were getting practical lessons, Harry would still have something to offer because he's faced Voldemort.

[Laura]

All right, now we're gonna get into our MVP of the week. And I just had a fun question that made me giggle during the chapter where Professor McGonagall reprimands Dean for doing something to his mouse in class. They're learning how to darken mice in Transfiguration and McGonagall says something to Dean, basically along the lines of, dean, if you do that to that mouse again, you're going to be in for it.

[Eric]

So I want to put you in detention.

[Laura]

Yeah. What do we think, Dean Thomas? What did he do? What was he trying to do?

[Andrew]

Well, first of all, I'm really glad Micah is not here to answer this question because I shut it.

[Eric]

That means we don't have to move it to the paywall.

[Laura]

That's the only reason I asked it this week.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Laura]

I would have had a different question.

[Andrew]

Thinking about a mouse. My favorite mouse in history is Chuck E. Cheese. And I'm thinking he turned it into one of the original Chuck E. Cheese robots and then made Chucky perform all of Dean's favorite songs that he's seen Chucky do at his wonderful world famous pizza shops. And before you say, Andrew, Chuck E. Cheese isn't over in the uk Actually, they're not yet over there. I learned earlier today that they have announced they're going to be opening locations in the uk. So this answer is relevant. Even if is it going to be.

[Eric]

Under is more his former. Our formal legal name, Charles Entertainment Cheese.

[Andrew]

I would like that. I would like if they got back to basics, but I don't know.

[Eric]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I. It's a quick amount of time that Dean Thomas is doing this thing. So I think that Dean made the mouse dance, the Saturday Night fever dance, which McGonagall clearly hates canonically. She does not like disco. It is known.

[Laura]

Yeah. Tracks for me. I think that he was trying to transfigure it into the rat from Ratatouille so that he could have his own personal chef. 24. 7.

[Eric]

We all want a little Remy.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Who spent dinner with me. Like using me. I don't want to do it.

[Jordan]

Well, I think he was using it to torture Lavender Brown because we find out how scared she was touching the box. So I think he was levitating it in her face or something.

[Andrew]

Oh, I like that.

[Laura]

Oh, yeah, I like that. I like that.

[Eric]

That's easy.

[Laura]

That feels like an athlete. That feels like a real answer.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

All right, now it is time for our links line, which is our newest benefit on Patreon. And thank you so all of you who Support [e-mail] mugglecast Just like Jordan does. And thank you everyone, for answering this week's question. The question I pose to all of you is, if you were High Inquisitor of Hogwarts, what would your top priority be? And I specifically called out, we welcome serious and non serious answers. So I'm predicting we're going to have a mix here.

[Andrew]

Julianne said quite simply, a DEI council too soon.

[Eric]

Genog says I'd get straight into sorting out the WI fi. How are students meant to catch up on their socials? The world is deprived of fred and George's TikToks. It's the key to international magical cooperation. Not to mention the Hogwarts residents can't keep up to date on their favorite podcasts. You know, Dumbledore would love to be kicking back listening to the latest true crime podcast. Finally, Harry and Ron. Having access to the Internet might give Hermione a much needed break. What if she could just say to them, google it.

[Laura]

Oh, she would totally do that.

[Andrew]

I would want to see Fred and George's TikTok channel too. I think they would be crushing it.

[Laura]

I mean, I feel like Fred would have to be doing that from beyond the veil. Right? So are we getting like, TikTok, like among the living and in the afterlife?

[Eric]

Well, isn't the whole thing about TikTok is that it's one person but you play different characters? Characters from opposite sides and you splice yourself in.

[Laura]

Yeah. Rachel says I'd crack down on the bullying that goes on most often between students of different houses, but sometimes within the house. Honestly, I think the Sorting Hat could make a great guidance counselor. So I wouldn't even have to hire anyone to help students who have been victims. I'd also ensure students have appropriate protective gear in classes like potions, herbology and care of magical creatures.

[Eric]

I love that.

[Laura]

So a serious answer, but some good ideas there.

[Eric]

I've never once considered the Sorting Hat as a psychologist and I actually really like it.

[Laura]

Is that ethical though?

[Eric]

Because mediation. Yeah. You'd be like, hey, this person's bullying you. You know, they're just compensating because they have this poor relationship with the da, da, da. Right. And then it's like, oh, I gave them the key to understanding this person better. To breed empathy. And then you tell the other person, hey, you know, why are you this way? That person's just trying to get by.

[Laura]

Yeah. But a guidance counselor? That can see inside your head? I don't know about that.

[Andrew]

I don't know.

[Eric]

I kind of. I think they'd be effective.

[Jordan]

Stephanie said my top list of priorities would be stop any use of paper straws at Hogwarts. Eco friendliness is not necessary in the wizarding world. Number two, fire Hagrid and any non human teachers because let's be real, they only get hired due to diversity and inclusion policies that Dumbledore wanted to implement. And number three, clear the names of all known Death Eaters and their children because they were just trying to make a better world for all of us. And number four, rename all the local landmarks to have something to do with Hogwarts and Wizard supremacy. That would be a great start.

[Laura]

With the melting face emoji.

[Jordan]

With the melting face emoji.

[Eric]

Yep.

[Laura]

Yes.

[Andrew]

That one was feeling too real. So I'll just move on.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

From Danielle. I'd start with making sure all the teachers are living. Every single student is bored out of their minds in bins class. It's time to help him cross into the afterlife.

[Eric]

Wow.

[Andrew]

Rude again. While we're at it, get the bloody bear and the heck out of there. Because Helena Ravenclaw shouldn't have to run the risk of seeing her murderer every freaking day.

[Eric]

I'm cool with that's true. Yeah. Seeing as how they're both their house's head ghost. That's just absolutely wild. Catherine says, I think I would have to go with supporting students who clearly are struggling with classes or magic in general. Whether that is better equipment to do their work with, like Neville who clearly needs a new wand to do a better spell work or someone to help with tutoring. Nowhere is it mentioned in the books that there's a tutoring center or a discretionary fund to help students with supply needs. I think it would be beneficial for all students at Hogwarts not only grade wise but even school unity.

[Laura]

Yeah, definitely. Jason says first, as a teacher for 27 years, I'd have to say cracking down on Snape's treatment of any students not in Slytherin. Second, I'd tell Fudge that the Ministry has no business interfering at Hogwarts. I might also explore the possibility of either sorting later in their Hogwarts years or doing away with it altogether.

[Jordan]

Nolan said Higher Top or Auras and Unspeakables from the Ministry as consultants to find every security nightmare in that castle. You're telling me we went through the Chamber of Secrets, dementors on the castle grounds and multiple secret mass murderers hiding in that castle without a security audit. Hell, I'll even support Umbridge getting Dumbledore impeached if she was the first to even try to make the place safe for children to live there.

[Andrew]

What? Nolan starting to sound like a security nightmare. Security nightmare? Catherine said Launch an investigation into the Chamber of Secrets and why no one thought to question Moaning Myrtle and search the bathroom Face palm emoji the next.

[Eric]

One is Krista the first thing I do is hire guidance counselors at Hogwarts, assuming that's even a viable career path. In the wizarding world, mental health is the most important thing, especially for teenagers.

[Laura]

Agreed, Agreed. And finally, that bat lady says two things Umbridge would never care to foul play in Quidditch and addressing some minor security concerns. I have a vague recollection of hearing of such issues somewhere. Winky Face it may also be the right time to look into the sherry shortages that have mystified the house elves of late. Oh, shots fired at Trelawney.

[Andrew]

Great answers everybody as always. And don't forget you can participate in the links line every week by becoming a [e-mail] mugglecast and by the way, one Patreon perk for Slug Club members. We do offer occasional merch store [e-mail] and we thought in light of Hogwarts finally being exposed for the mess that it is by Umbridge, Slug Club patrons can get 15% off all Security Nightmare and Security Consultant merchandise at mugglecastmerch.com like this hat I am wearing tonight. Don't miss this opportunity to don a security consultant hat and take some action at the most dangerous school in the wizarding world. If you have any feedback about today's chats, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to mugglecastmail.com and next week we'll be discussing Order of the Phoenix, chapter 16 in the Hogshead. And now it's time for Kwizzij.

[Eric]

This week's quizzage question. First discovered in the year 1610, the four largest moons of the planet Jupiter are called IO, Europa, Ganymede, and what? And the correct answer is callisto. 50% of people said they did not look this up. Correct answers were submitted by Buff Daddy Elves. Just want to have fun. I studied astronomy in college until I realized I'd probably be in School for 18 more years. Kendrick Lamar's Dolores Diss track. Lady Hermione Lookalike, Patronus Seeker. Sir Snape is a vape. That's no moon. It's a space station. The humble Hogwarts Post owl making no hoots and pretending he doesn't exist. The hungry Hungry Hufflepuff and the tea leaves of foreboding.

[Andrew]

I'm just going to say something maybe controversial. I don't believe people when they say they didn't look a question up. 50%. 50%. I don't buy it.

[Laura]

You know that's a direct challenge. That's Andrew's diss track. For all of you participating in Quidditch and allegedly lying.

[Andrew]

50%. 50%. I don't believe it. Believe it.

[Laura]

No, for real, though, I would love a Kendrick diss track for Umbridge. Is he a Harry Potter fan? And could we make it happen? I'm serious.

[Andrew]

We'll have to find out.

[Eric]

Okay, here is next week's Quizzet question. In the US of A. The College Board administers the SAT, which is a high score, perfect score of 1600. What is the lowest score you can score on the sat? Really? Just. The educators might know this one. But I encourage you. It is open book. So go look it up. Try not to use AI. That's my challenge. But submit your answer to us on the Mugacast website, mugacast.com quizich or if you're on the Mugucast website, maybe reading transcripts or checking out our Wall of Fame, click on Quizzet from the main nav.

[Andrew]

If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too. Please tell your friends about us. Remind them that we're covering the Harry Potter TV show and going chapter by chapter through the books. Also, check out our other weekly podcasts, what the Hype and Millennial for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. In our latest episode of what the Hype, Eric, Micah, Meg, and I are discussing cozy video games. And then over on Millennial, we're discussing the rising trend of digital shoplifting and how people are getting away with it. Myself included.

[Laura]

I was going to say people. In this case means Andrew.

[Andrew]

Leave me alone. These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you. Listener support is the only reason we've been able to podcast for 20 years, and there's lots of great ways to help us out. I mentioned a few minutes ago, visit mugglecastmerch.com to get official Mugglecast T shirts, hoodies, glassware and hats. Apple Podcast subscribers can sign up for Mugglecast Gold, which gets you ad free and early releases of Mugglecast, plus two bonus Mugglecast installments every month, like a new one we're recording after today's episode. And for all of the benefits that we have to offer, [e-mail] mugglecast and you'll get all the benefits of gold, plus live streams, links, line participation, a new physical gift every year, personal video message from one of the four of us, and the opportunity to to co host Mugglecast one day, just like Jordan did today. Thank you for joining us, Jordan.

[Jordan]

Thank you for having me.

[Andrew]

All right, well, thanks everybody for listening to this week's episode. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Laura]

I'm Mara.

[Jordan]

And I'm Jordan.

[Andrew]

Bye everyone.

[Laura]

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[Andrew]

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[Laura]

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