Disorder of the Phoenix (OOTP Chapter 5, The Order of the Phoenix)

Summary

MuggleCast: The Harry Potter Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Disorder of the Phoenix (OOTP Chapter 5, The Order of the Phoenix)
Release Date: October 22, 2024
Hosts: Andrew, Eric, Micah, and Guest Host Pam
Transcript Length: Approximately 68 minutes

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1. Introduction to Chapter 5: "Disorder of the Phoenix"

The episode kicks off with an introduction by Micah, who sets the stage for the deep dive into Chapter 5 of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. The hosts express their excitement to explore the complexities of this chapter, particularly focusing on the dynamics between Harry and the adult members of the Order of the Phoenix.

Notable Quote:

Micah [01:13]: "Get ready to be mollycoddled because this week we're talking about how much info Harry needs to know and why the adults fuss over letting him have it."

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2. Merchandise and Community Engagement

Before delving into the chapter discussion, the hosts briefly mention the launch of their new merchandise store, mugglecastmerch.com, highlighting various apparel options and special discounts for patrons. They also announce the return of their long-running Secret Santa event, encouraging listeners to participate and thanking Brittany B. for organizing it.

Notable Quote:

Eric [02:58]: "And one other announcement is the season for Mugglecast Secret Santa. This is something that has been long running for the show…"

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3. In-Depth Chapter Analysis

A. Recap of Previous Discussions

The hosts reminisce about their previous episodes discussing Chapter 5, referencing past insights and teasing more nuanced interpretations in this episode.

Notable Quote:

Eric [05:09]: "We last spoke about this chapter on episodes 230 titled Trendsetter for June 4, 2011 and episode 437, the Voldeport…"

B. Setting the Scene

Micah begins by analyzing the vivid description of the Order’s headquarters—the kitchen in the basement filled with pipe smoke, symbolizing a hidden and war-like atmosphere. This setting underscores the clandestine nature of the Order’s operations against Voldemort.

Notable Quote:

Micah [07:34]: "The kitchen, which is normally the gathering spot for families or in this case the Order, it's underground, it's hidden, which I think is emblematic of this, like hidden operation going on right now."

C. Character Dynamics and Conflicts

Sirius Black vs. Molly Weasley

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the confrontation between Sirius Black and Molly Weasley. Sirius advocates for Harry’s right to know more about the ongoing battle against Voldemort, while Molly fears for Harry's safety and prefers to keep him in the dark.

Notable Quote:

Eric [09:15]: "In the first corner we have Sirius, Harry's godfather… Sirius is the only one alive who could survive saying such a thing to Harry right now in the middle of all of his rage."

Pamela adds that Sirius's perspective is shaped by his own experiences of isolation and imprisonment, making him more empathetic to Harry’s desire for information.

Notable Quote:

Pamela [10:25]: "He gets Harry's situation better than Molly does and uses this moment to refocus him on what's important."

Molly Weasley's Overbearing Nature

The hosts critique Molly’s approach, describing her as controlling and overly protective, which leads to tension within the Order. They explore how her actions stem from a place of love and concern but often come across as authoritarian.

Notable Quote:

Eric [19:01]: "She is trying to exert this level of control because she probably feels as powerless as some of the others do."

Fred and George Weasley's Perspective

Fred and George Weasley are discussed as voices advocating for inclusion of other members in the Order, questioning why Harry is privy to information that they are not.

Notable Quote:

Andrew [24:57]: "Fred and George... say, wait a minute, why can Harry be told stuff but we can't because we're of age."

D. Themes Explored

Secrecy vs. Transparency

The episode delves into the theme of secrecy within the Order, contrasting Sirius’s push for transparency with Molly’s preference for secrecy. This dynamic highlights the struggle between protecting Harry and empowering him with knowledge.

Notable Quote:

Eric [33:45]: "Dumbledore himself doesn't know at that point. He's kind of like still a little scared about, like, how deep this connection goes with Harry."

The Role of the Ministry of Magic

The hosts analyze the political tension between the Order and the Ministry of Magic, focusing on Cornelius Fudge’s denial of Voldemort’s return and how it hampers the Order’s efforts.

Notable Quote:

Micah [44:42]: "Fudge is also leaning on the Daily Prophet. He's suppressing whatever stories there would be."

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4. Listener Interaction and Community Engagement

A. Quizzage Segment

The hosts introduce the "Quizzage" segment, engaging listeners with trivia questions related to the Harry Potter universe. They reveal answers from the previous week and present a new question centered around voting ages in the United Kingdom.

Notable Quote:

Eric [63:47]: "Last week's question was... the correct answer was Anish Kapoor…"

B. MVP of the Week

In the "MVP of the Week" segment, the hosts nominate the most outrageous moment from Molly Weasley in this chapter, with various listeners' suggestions highlighted.

Notable Quote:

Micah [61:39]: "I'm gonna give it to when she says he's not James Sirius. That was a low blow."

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5. Teasers for Upcoming Episodes

The hosts tease future episodes, including a special Halloween episode titled "Wizarding World Graveyard," where they will explore various neglected aspects of the Harry Potter franchise. They also mention upcoming bonus episodes available to Patreon supporters, focusing on creative content like themed potions.

Notable Quote:

Micah [62:46]: "Next week, as we approach Halloween, we're gonna have a special episode for everybody that we are calling the Wizarding World Graveyard…"

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6. Concluding Remarks

The episode wraps up with closing remarks, encouraging listeners to support the podcast through subscriptions, Patreon, and merchandise purchases. The hosts express gratitude to guest host Pam and remind listeners to participate in community activities and provide feedback.

Notable Quote:

Micah [67:20]: "If you enjoy Mugglecast and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show. And we would love a five star review in your favorite podcast app."

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Key Takeaways and Insights

• Complex Adult Dynamics: Chapter 5 serves as a critical exploration of adult relationships within the Order of the Phoenix, highlighting differing perspectives on secrecy and information sharing.

• Character Depth: The episode provides nuanced analyses of Sirius Black and Molly Weasley, illustrating their motivations and the resulting tensions within the Order.

• Political Intrigue: The interplay between the Order and the Ministry of Magic underscores the broader political landscape threatening the Wizarding World.

• Listener Engagement: Through segments like Quizzage and MVP of the Week, the podcast fosters a strong sense of community and interactive participation among its listeners.

• Foreshadowing and Symbolism: The discussion touches upon foreshadowing elements within the chapter, such as the significance of Voldemort's return and the strategic positioning of key characters.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Micah [07:34]: "The kitchen, which is normally the gathering spot for families or in this case the Order, it's underground, it's hidden, which I think is emblematic of this, like hidden operation going on right now."

• Eric [09:15]: "In the first corner we have Sirius, Harry's godfather… Sirius is the only one alive who could survive saying such a thing to Harry right now in the middle of all of his rage."

• Pamela [10:25]: "He gets Harry's situation better than Molly does and uses this moment to refocus him on what's important."

• Andrew [24:57]: "Fred and George... say, wait a minute, why can Harry be told stuff but we can't because we're of age."

• Micah [44:42]: "Fudge is also leaning on the Daily Prophet. He's suppressing whatever stories there would be."

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Conclusion

This episode of MuggleCast offers a thorough and engaging analysis of Chapter 5 from Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. By dissecting character interactions, thematic elements, and the broader political context, the hosts provide listeners with a deep understanding of the narrative’s intricacies. The inclusion of community segments and teasers for future content ensures an interactive and dynamic listening experience, making it a valuable resource for both avid fans and newcomers to the Wizarding World.

Transcript

[Eric]

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[Andrew]

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[Micah]

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[Andrew]

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[Micah]

Learn more at Capella.

[Andrew]

Eduardo.

[Micah]

Welcome to Michael Cast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Pamela]

And I'm Micah.

[Micah]

Get ready to be mollycoddled because this week we're talking about how much info Harry needs to know and why the adults fuss over letting him have it. It's time for Chapter 5 of Order of the Phoenix, called Easily Enough Order of the Phoenix. And joining us this week is friend of the show, fellow hypable podcaster, Pam. Welcome back, Pam.

[Andrew]

Hi, thanks for having me back.

[Micah]

Of course, you co host. You co host Millennial with Laura and I. You co coho.

[Pamela]

You.

[Micah]

You co host what the Hype Show. Pam's putting in all the podcasting work this week, so we appreciate it. While Laura takes a week off, I'm.

[Andrew]

Playing bingo with our whole little podcast family.

[Micah]

Listeners. Before we jump into chapter by chapter reminder that last week we launched our brand new Mugglecast Merch store [e-mail] this is where you can grab brand new original Mugglecast shirts, hats, hoodies and more. For example, we have security Nightmare gear, we have a Choo choo hats and shirts. We have a We Criticize because we care T shirt, which I'm a big fan of. We even have a Pickle Pack T shirt. So there's lots of great [e-mail] and this is an excellent place to support us if you don't already support us on Patreon or Apple podcasts, though I will say patrons are getting an additional merchandise discount that they can use at [e-mail] so once again, check out mugglecastmerch.com and pick something up.

[Eric]

And one other announcement is the season for Mugglecast Secret Santa. This is something that has been long running for the show, particularly on our patrons Facebook group, which you get by being a part of the Patreon community. And many thanks to Brittany B. Who all these years has been running it. You guys participating this year, do you think?

[Micah]

I think so. I need to check out the. I need to get on the list.

[Eric]

Yeah, I've gotten some great gifts. The Signup deadline is December 2nd, and if anyone has any questions, feel free to message us. But, uh, that's just a courtesy announcement to let you know.

[Pamela]

Actually got these very cool Ravenclaw coasters.

[Eric]

I like that.

[Pamela]

One of our Secret Santas.

[Micah]

It's.

[Pamela]

There's more than one. There's four of them. So it's not just like they just one polluter off of a local diner and sent it along, but it's. It's something that I really enjoy doing every year. So I'm glad that it's back. And thanks to Brittany for pulling it all together again.

[Eric]

Yeah, and full instructions because we do do it through Elfster and all that can be found on a pinned post in the Facebook group.

[Pamela]

You never know what I'm going to pull off the shelf.

[Micah]

You have a lot on those shelves.

[Eric]

I don't ever know.

[Micah]

Well, speaking of Patreon, this week on Bonus Mugglecast, we will celebrate Halloween by coming up with our own potions that we think would solve a specific problem. So we came up with some concoctions. We came up with names for these. At least I came up with a name for mine.

[Eric]

Yes, Yes. I was pressured to also come up with a name. When I saw that you did and Pam had one in there, so.

[Andrew]

Well, only because Andrew put one in, I was like, oh, is that what we're doing?

[Micah]

Oh, wow. I am such an influencer.

[Andrew]

Monkey see, monkey do over here.

[Pamela]

We all contributed.

[Micah]

Okay, excellent. So we're going to have a fun bonus mocha cast this week again over on Patreon. And also through Apple Podcasts, we release two bonus Mugglecast installments every month. So without further ado, time for chapter by chapter. Order of The Phoenix. Chapter 5, the Order of the Phoenix.

[Eric]

We last spoke about this chapter on episodes 230 titled Trendsetter for June 4, 2011 and episode 437, the Voldeport, on which I thought I had an idea what that would be, and it's not what I thought that it was. Interestingly enough, the meaning of Voldeport. Anyway, that One was from October 7, 2019. Let's roll the time Turner clip.

[Micah]

Pam, get ready for this production value.

[Andrew]

Ooh, I'm so excited. Three turns should do it, I think.

[Eric]

What the episode 230.

[Pamela]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Because you know, we're getting in. Deeper into the. In the here, things are getting a lot darker. So it's like you kind of expect that we're going to see some very dark, powerful magic going down in this book.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Pamela]

You think weapon, you think like a death stick. Yeah. I don't know.

[Micah]

Like a sword.

[Pamela]

Yeah, something like that. Something that if he physically had it, could do serious damage to other people. But it's just a prophecy, Right?

[Micah]

Right. It's. It is a bit misleading.

[Pamela]

Episode 437, I don't think Sirius really has had the opportun to mature because he was locked up in Azkaban for 13 years and he's very much been a prisoner despite the fact that he's not in jail. If we think about everything that he's been through since a prisoner of Azkaban.

[Eric]

Yeah. He spent a year just living with Buckbeak. Like, you can't talk to Buck. I mean, you can, but it's not going to talk back. Mysterious thing time.

[Pamela]

That was you, Andrew.

[Micah]

That was me making the noise. But Pat was on there too. I did not realize he was on that long ago.

[Pamela]

I was going to say June 4, 2011. The allergies were definitely kicking in for you and me, Andrew.

[Eric]

We all have that problem going back ten or more years. Yeah, we all had allergies calling.

[Micah]

I think it was a nasally voice. We were just trying to be a little more radially back in the day. It comes a little more natural now.

[Eric]

It's why these look backs are so fun.

[Micah]

Well, to kick things off, I just want to set the scene by observing how this scene is described because I think it says a lot about this chapter and the Order of the Phoenix. So the kitchen is in the basement and there is this haze of pipe smoke hanging in the air like battle fumes. And I love the symbolism here because the kitchen, which is normally the gathering spot for families or in this case the Order, it's underground, it's hidden, which I think is emblematic of this, like hidden operation going on right now. And the battle fumes add to the vibes that this is a war crew. It feels like. Feels like Harry just entered the war room. The situation room.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

The whole bunker or the whole underground thing reminds me of a bunker. And yeah, not only is this wartime, you're Right. To point out, but there's going to be a war fought over Harry in this chapter.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I didn't think about that. The idea of battle fumes is like, almost like a premonition of what's to come. So it kind of also gives you the sense that they've probably been arguing down there for a while because everybody's stuck living under the same roof too. This is definitely not the first time that they've butted heads.

[Pamela]

And you could blame Mondungus for the battle that's about to come, because if he didn't disapparate, maybe things wouldn't have gotten so out of hand.

[Eric]

Right. Harry would still be on Privet Drive. Very, very upset with everyone for not telling him what's going on.

[Micah]

The Battle of Molly versus Sirius.

[Eric]

Let's get into it. So in the left corner.

[Pamela]

Yeah, we have that. We what? I forget his name. But the. The boxing announcer, Don King or something. No, not Vince McMahon.

[Eric]

Was that. Did I say something wrong? Let's go.

[Micah]

He's been cancelled, hasn't he?

[Eric]

That's not Vince McMahon.

[Pamela]

No, it's not Vince McMahon.

[Eric]

Oh, damn. I don't know anything about boxing. Okay, in the first corner we have Sirius, Harry's godfather, who in this chapter more than any other chapter before, is doing godfatherly things like telling Harry that he didn't have it so bad on Privet Drive. It's kind of funny, after another chapter of Harry's shouting, to have him be reintroduced to Sirius and Sirius is like, yeah, you didn't. You didn't have it that bad. I have it worse than you. And the fact that Harry doesn't also flip out with this information. Like, I'm pretty sure Sirius is the only one alive who could survive saying such a. A thing to Harry right now in the middle of all of his rage.

[Pamela]

I think he was taken off guard by it.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Pamela]

And he can't. He's had a little time to process. He's gotten a little bit of that emotion out of him. But I do think Sirius's comment took him a little bit by surprise.

[Eric]

Yeah, agreed with that. But serious, of course, is referencing his own isolation. And it's funny to see them kind of go back and forth. Harry's like, well, at least you knew what's going on. And you know, Sirius is actually. When I say he's doing godfatherly things, I think he intuits, both in general and directly from what Harry says. At least you know what's going on that Harry has wanted to know and probably Been desperate for more information. And so the really, the crux of this chapter is Sirius loudly saying, well, honestly, Harry, I'm surprised you haven't been pressing us for more information on Voldemort. And it lights the fire that, you know, the battle smoke comes. So I feel like this is a great assist. I feel like, you know, all the ways in which series goes to bat during the argument with Molly is great, but just in general, having that conversation happen here most people would prefer that it didn't occur at all. And that's just not, I think, reasonable. So Sirius has his back.

[Pamela]

He does. And I like the word that you use, the assist. You know, he. He gets Harry's situation better than most and I think he uses this moment to refocus him on what's important and that's getting more information about what's happening with Voldemort. And I just think Sirius, though, given how glum things are at Grim Old Place, he figures, hey, can you use a bit of drama around here? Let me stir the plot a little bit. Let me be a little bit like my good friend Albus and get the drama going.

[Micah]

That is the impression I got as well. Molly's ready to get the kids up to bed and he's like, I want a little primetime entertainment before everybody goes to bed for the night. But I do also understand, like, I think you're kind of joking, Micah, but I also wouldn't put that past serious. The idea of shaking up his lonely, isolated days here at Grimwald Place with a little bit of excitement. And he wants his godson to know what's been going on. And he knows his godson deserves to know.

[Eric]

Yeah, for sure. Do we think that Sirius actually understands Harry's situation better than Molly does? Just the whole being excluded thing?

[Andrew]

I think so, because Sirius was isolated for a long time. And I know that, you know, we all know that they've been in correspondence and that Harry was genuinely excited to go live with him, you know, after the events of Prisoner of Asgard. That's obviously before Wormtail escapes and all of that happens, but, yeah, I just. I don't know if. If the Weasleys, barring Ron and maybe Fred and George because they see the bars on his window when they go and rescue him. Right. Know really how bad he has it at the Dursleys. Like, he's severely being abused there. Maybe not like, fully physically, but it takes a toll on you to. To live in a house where people just think you're a terrible human.

[Pamela]

Yeah. Going off of what you said, Pam, and then also looking back to what we were discussing on episode 437. Sirius has been a prisoner ever since he committed the crime against Pettigrew. It's not changed, just the. The definition of prisoner has changed for him. Right. He's been in Azkaban for a period of time, but once he's out, he's really still a prisoner of circumstance. He never really gets to be free.

[Eric]

Right.

[Pamela]

And this is his one opportunity because it's his home. So in a way, it's a bit of my house, my rules. And I think that's what's going on here at the start.

[Eric]

He.

[Pamela]

He wants to feel some level of control.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

I think you could say, honestly, the same for Molly. But she's coming at it from a different perspective. Right. I think that she is coming at it from wanting to keep her family safe and there's so much that she cannot control with regards to that. And so they're both lashing out for the same reason, but the catalyst for both of them is completely different.

[Eric]

Yeah. Molly's always been sort of the pillar of her family, the heart of her family. And doesn't I. I really doubt she's felt isolated in many, many, many, many years. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Well, you just think about, like, the clock she has in her kitchen and, like, why that exists and like, maybe how many spoons serious clock would be.

[Eric]

Yeah, seriously serious as clock would for all the years he was in Azkaban. Just be like the shadows he made friends with on the wall. Right, Exactly.

[Micah]

And she's also obeying Dumbledore's orders. Dumbledore had asked that they not share a lot of info or any info with Harry. And she brings that up in this chapter.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah. So let's. Okay, so in the other corner. And by the way, it's Michael buffer, not Vince McMahon. In the other corner, Molly. Somebody else's mother does someone else's mother things. Is what I titled this because she is so extra in this chapter. It's not just when she gets into it with Sirius. Long term listeners of the show will know that I have problems whenever anybody attacks my boy. But even before then, she's interrupting people. She is really just trying to take control of. Of. Of everything. Kind of what you were saying, Pam. Like, she doesn't. She wants to exert this level of control because she probably feels as powerless as some of the others do. But there's a moment that I forgot happens in this chapter, which is Thatungus Fletcher opens his mouth to actually apologize to Harry for ditching him. And I couldn't believe as I was rereading this, that it was about to happen. Tongue is like, I believe I owe you an apology. And he's about to actually apologize. But then Molly from across the room is like, mud dog is Fletcher, I told you not to smoke that pipe in here. And so what could have been a really, like, redemptive moment for Dung is interrupted. And then it's over. I'm like.

[Micah]

But in hindsight, we also know he ends up being a terrible person. So I don't think I want that redemptive moment from him. It's also his fault for smoking in the house when Molly has already asked him not to listen. Now, that said, I will play devil's advocate with Dung. If you're in the Order of the Phoenix, are you being paid for this role? He needs to make a little bit of money. They all need to make some money. I don't think it's fair they should be working in the Order for free.

[Andrew]

So it's volunteer basis.

[Micah]

I don't like that. That's not right. He.

[Pamela]

He can't go outside and smoke. It's too risky.

[Micah]

He needs one of those, like, nicotine patches, I guess, that you can.

[Eric]

He needs a smoker's corner. They need to build in.

[Micah]

There's not a spell or a potion to help people who have the urge to smoke in the woods.

[Pamela]

To his character.

[Eric]

Yeah, I agree. Does character thing. I mean, honestly, if 12 grandma place smells like an old school bowling alley used to smell with all that cigarette. Like casino cigarettes. Yeah. Well, not. Maybe not a casino, but bowling alley is what I think of, you know, that smell. I would stay in Grimmel Place for like a summer if it smelled like that. Because that was a good smell. That's probably really bad for you. But I mean, Dung's whole thing adds character. I think he's okay for now. For two more books, it's nice that he recognizes that he did a bad thing. See, if Mrs. Fig were here, she'd be forcing Dung to apologize. Nobody's here doing that. And still, like, he looks at Harry and he's like, I guess I owe you an apology. And then he says, I had a business deal. And yeah, if they're not getting paid, Andrew, you know, duty calls. Business calls. The money. You can't line the inside of your wallet with hopes and dreams.

[Micah]

Right?

[Eric]

So she's also, I guess, over controlling. Like, I can understand. There's this whole thing about dinner and people offer to Help. And she's kind of overboard on, like, tonks, don't help. You'll only make things worse. And I just think that that's not very polite. No, she's, like, trying to be nice, but also, like, tonks, don't get anywhere near this food I'm making because you'll ruin it.

[Micah]

She had also just asked for some help from anybody, I think. And then Tonks tries to help. I mean, this is just erratic behavior. Just ask somebody specific to help you if you don't want somebody in the room to offer to help you.

[Pamela]

She's stressed. Some of her behavior isn't defensible, but it's understandable. And I'm thinking back to last episode. We talked a little bit about how she lost both of her brothers in the First Wizarding War. Now she has Charlie, Bill and Arthur, all in the order. Arthur is in the crosshairs of the Ministry. Percy is at odds with the family. Fred and George are a handful at the best of times. And Harry has just gone through this attack by Dementors. So throw that all together with the fact that she seems to be the caretaker now of Grimald Place. And I think that any one of those things is enough to be stressed about.

[Eric]

I mean, who asked her to become the caretaker of Grimaud? I mean, well, then maybe that's the point. Maybe it's like. Maybe she offers emotional labor, but it's somebody else's house. It's Sirius's house.

[Micah]

And do you want Sirius to cook? I don't.

[Andrew]

But that's all she knows how to do. You know, she's a. She's a homemaker until, like, you know, she. They give her, like, the warrior moment, right, in Deathly Hallows. But up until then, we know that she's a homemaker. And so I think she just tries to slip into that role for some semblance of normalcy. And, you know, maybe she should have asked because she. You also can't, like, smother or mother adults, right? Like, that's ridiculous. Especially like adults that are not your children. So.

[Micah]

Yeah, and I love this point Zafir is bringing up in our discord right now. Remember how cray we all went in lockdowns? Here's something that happens since the last time we discussed this chapter. We've all experienced what lockdowns are like. They are in a lockdown, effectively. So, of course, some of the people are going to be going crazy and there's going to be some fights and.

[Pamela]

The emotional effect that you were talking about, Andrew we see it come to a head with what happens when she confronts the boggart in the Wardrobe and it's constantly turning into different members of her family. And then Harry, she. She's just very overwhelmed in this moment and I think she unfairly takes it out on Sirius.

[Eric]

Well, thank you for staying. Yeah, I mean, look, it's. It's clear that she's overwhelmed and everybody gets overwhelmed sometimes. You know, what's interesting to me is that the argument that that develops is all about what Dumbledore has said probably a little bit ago, which was that don't tell Harry any more than he needs to know. And I think it's Dung who argues circum. Or maybe Lupin. Circumstances have changed since then. So there was this old edict from Dumbledore saying don't tell Harry more than he needs to know. But none of these adults can get on the same page as one another on what that means, what that entails, and it ends up being, you know, leading to this big argument.

[Pamela]

Does seem strange though, that there was no prep. They knew Harry eventually was going to be coming to Grimald Place. Why did they not discuss this? Why were they not ready to present some kind of information to him? It. It just seems like that has to.

[Andrew]

Be on Dumbledore though, because the only argument anybody can give is that Dumbledore said need to know, but if he doesn't clarify need to know, then that's why all the other adults are at odds over what they should and shouldn't. And it's probably because Dumbledore himself doesn't know at that point. He's kind of like still a little scared about, like, how deep this connection goes with hearing. He can't tell anybody that because he's keeping all his cards close to the chest.

[Eric]

So what's that, Pam? Insufficient orders from Dumbledore?

[Andrew]

Sure. Is there a button for that?

[Pamela]

The Disorder of the Phoenix.

[Micah]

Disorder of the Phoenix.

[Andrew]

Disorder of the Phoenix of the Phoenix.

[Micah]

Episode title.

[Eric]

There it is.

[Pamela]

You're welcome.

[Eric]

Oh, my God. So let's get into this. And I've prepared something of a blow by blow because I do find it interesting. Some people might think, I'm coming for Molly. I'm not coming for Molly. But each sort of character has different feelings about different aspects of the. The whole thing. Harry's need to know his danger level, whether or not he should be considered of age or responsible enough to know what Voldemort's doing. I think the whole thing's offensive to even ask whether he needs to know anything. About Voldemort. But we know there is a very good reason ultimately to keep Harry at least somewhat in the dark in that it protects the plans that the Order have to defeat Voldemort. So with that in mind, let's kind of talk this through. So Molly first says that Ron and Hermione are too young for this information and to be in the Order of the Phoenix. Sirius is the one who says. Who says they have to be actually be in the Order. Harry has a right to know. So Sirius, again with the assistant on Harry. But then Fred and George, who nobody asks, say, wait a minute, why can Harry be told stuff but we can't because we're of age. And for me, I'm thinking this could have gone so well for Harry. Fred and George probably would have found out eventually but now they want to throw their hat in because they've been kept out of the loop as well.

[Micah]

Yeah, I mean, I understand where they're coming from. Harry is younger than them. Fred and George are adults. They deserve to know this information. Especially when Ron and Hermione are going to be hearing this information too.

[Eric]

Do you think that the fact that Harry will tell Ron and Hermione and he admits as such. Yeah. Means that anyone older than Ron and Hermione should also be told if.

[Micah]

Since they are in the house.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah.

[Micah]

I mean, why not? Fred and George are going to find their own way to get this information out of the trio if they're not sitting there.

[Eric]

There's a certain amount of trust that's been extended to them all. They are inside the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix and that's what.

[Micah]

We spoke about last week. I think on the show by being within this house, there is an unspoken, there's a trust among this whole group.

[Eric]

Agreed. And, you know, all serious can say he's not going to engage with the whole of age, not of age thing. This is up to your parents, ultimately. But as for Harry, and this is when Molly goes off the deep end, she says it's not down to you to decide what's good for Harry. Her normally kindly face looked dangerous. She leans on Dumbledore. She says, remember what Dumbledore said. Don't tell him any more than he needs to know.

[Pamela]

So this is where I start to side a bit with Sirius in that Sirius is Harry's guardian. And I think for Molly and for us as readers, we forget that there was a full year where Sirius got to be a godfather to Harry when James and Lily were still alive. And he is definitely Immature at times, but he's still a good human being. And the shots that she takes at Sirius, I'm trying to think who I could possibly compare it to, but it's not somebody that we would normally associate with Molly's character.

[Eric]

Hmm.

[Micah]

It's an interesting dichotomy because it's the woman who was taking care of Harry over the last four years in certain ways looking out for him versus, to your point, Micah, the guy who was his godfather irl saw him in person for a full year before James and Lilly died. So it's an interesting debate.

[Eric]

Yeah. There's evidence that Sirius cares for Harry and is a good godfather. Gives him the firebolt and he, he gives him all that advice in the last year.

[Micah]

I trust him. Is it partly his tone maybe bringing this up right before Molly's trying to send them up to bed? Could serious and Molly have to hash this out in advance of Harry getting back?

[Eric]

You know, that's exactly it. They're cooped up together that, you know, business associates, they're in this underground smoke filled den of depravity and dung and they just, you know, haven't. Yes. I think that Molly is like, oh God, not this now. Like, Sirius is the one who's, I think we're right in thinking he's having a bit of fun when he at least brings it up like, oh, so Harry, you haven't asked about what's up with Voldemort. I'm sure Molly's thinking anything but that right now, like, let's get these people to bed. And so I think that that knocks her sort of off her edge and she's more likely to blow a gasket or say something.

[Andrew]

I wonder too if she has, in the time that they've all been cooped up together, noticed that Sirius is a little bit stunted of growth as a result of the fact that he's been incarcerated for so long and that's of no fault of his own. But I just kind of wonder if part of the reason why she seems hesitant to trust his judgment is because she sees how prone he is to being rash or doing things that are potentially dangerous. And so she doesn't want like that to rub off on Harry and for Harry to go and do something stupid. We all know Harry is also prone to being rash and playing the hero and jumping the gun. It's a very Gryffindor trait and he has that in spades.

[Eric]

So it's just shocking to see, I guess, so little respect for Harry's legal Guardian.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with that.

[Eric]

And that's the interesting thing is, like, Molly has made her mind up about Sirius possibly long ago. Maybe there's still remnants of thinking that he was, you know, a criminal.

[Andrew]

Wasn't there, like when Dumbledore said that, like, when he told Sirius to reveal himself to the Weasleys, wasn't she, like, a little bit dubious? So maybe, like, you're right. Maybe part of that prejudice is also not completely rubbed off.

[Eric]

Well, she just doesn't know. Serious enough to say he's not. James, you know, that that is such a. And I know the movies are partially at fault for this whole thing, too. But ultimately, I think it's way out of line for her. Like, if she is having her feelings, which she is, that she needs to be the one to speak for Harry. She is stepping on the toes of Sirius. She is not listening to Lupin and some of these other people that may have different, like, rational arguments. And she goes straight for the jugular.

[Andrew]

Specifically. Is. Is so rational that it is surprising. You're right. That she doesn't concede, at least to somebody like him, because he's so calm and collected.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Pamela]

Thing I did want to bring up and just wanted to note, and certainly not something I don't think I would have picked up on the last time we were reading this chapter or the time before that, but. And Pam, I definitely want your thoughts on this is that, you know, aside from Tonks, Molly's the only adult woman that's present and she's clearly the only vocal adult woman. And I got a sense of or a vibe of her opinion, her voice being drowned out by all the men in the room. You have Arthur, you have Lupin, you have Sirius. Is there anything to that? I'm thinking back to the episodes you did when you were talking about women in Harry Potter, and maybe the author is trying to make a point here.

[Andrew]

It's interesting you say that, because I think that perhaps there is something to that. But also I think at the detriment to Molly, she's also written really shrilly and very stereotypically like a mother hen. And so when women are often described as being hysterical or too emotional, the idea behind that is that they're not in their right mind to be making decisions. And so I think that, like, inadvertently, as a result of her being an emotional character, she actually ends up falling prey to some of these stereotypes of women that are not always accurate because you can be emotional but also be making a good point.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And I Think, like, at the end of the day, like, she, she really, like, truly in her heart believes that she's trying to make the right decision for Harry. But because she's so emotional, because she's leading by, like, smothering everybody else and trying to tell everybody else what to do, you cannot, like, separate that almost from, like, the way that she's trying to mother the entire group of adults that are.

[Eric]

Yeah. She's also guilty of not being able to Harry for the person that he is, I think, which is it. Funnily enough, this is exactly what she accuses Sirius of. But I think that all she sees when she looks at Harry is a young child. Like, you know, he's 15. But she forgets that even three years ago he saved her daughter's life alone.

[Andrew]

And she probably doesn't want to think about, like, how much he's had to go through trauma at such a young age. Right. Not only losing his parents, but like, even the events of the last year, watching Cedric die, watching Voldemort come back fighting Voldemort. That's so much to go through. Right, but these are his credentials.

[Eric]

These are literally what everyone else is using to be like, he needs to know.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. But I think, like, her way is compartmentalizing that. It's like, okay, that happened. That does not mean we have to put him in a position for that to happen again. I almost kind of feel like that's why Dumbledore is operating the way that he is. And I think he says that later. He's like, I was just trying to protect you. I wanted you to stay a child for a little bit longer. Which is like a whole other thing because, like, you also can't be so, like, obtuse about what's actually happening in the real world, you know?

[Eric]

Yeah. So it just innocent he's been abused all these years, to your point. But. So my argument is that Molly can't see Harry for Harry the way that she sees that when Sirius, when, you know, looks at Harry, she sees James. She also just sees a child. There's, there's, there's no sort of half step here that she takes for telling Harry pretty much anything. The only reason he finds out anything is because of the others that go to bat for him.

[Pamela]

So, yeah, the, the whole comparison to James, it makes me wonder how well Molly actually knew James.

[Eric]

Or serious.

[Pamela]

Well, yes. To make that kind of a comment, you need to have some kind of connection to the person that, that you're referencing here. And that's why it Falls flat for me. The other piece which comes up during this conversation which was totally out of line was her blaming him for being an Azkaban.

[Micah]

I know, yeah. Not. Not his.

[Eric]

You haven't exactly been there for Harry, have you?

[Micah]

She's. She's grasping for straws.

[Pamela]

She's lost her cool.

[Micah]

Yeah. And one more point about how Molly gets depicted in the series and in this chapter in particular. Pam, you described her as being shrill and controlling, loud. Our first introduction and Harry's first introduction to a Howler is from Mrs. Weasley which I think also says a lot about how.

[Eric]

Oh, my.

[Micah]

Was trying to depict Molly across this series. She's the one sending off the howler and screaming at Harry in front of everybody.

[Eric]

She's very Dumbledore esque, isn't she?

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Well, even, like, I guess if we're going by, like. Like, even movieisms, like the whole, like, where have you been? You know, that's also very, like. I feel like that is Molly in a nutshell for so many people. Even if she is more than that.

[Eric]

Yeah. So Arthur Weasley. We're getting on to some of these peripheral adults who are here. Arthur Weasley does, I think, the coolest thing he could have done. I want to see this depicted somewhere where in the middle of it all, Molly asks Arthur for support. And he takes his glasses off and just starts to, like, wipe them down. And he's not responding.

[Micah]

He's exhausted.

[Eric]

Everyone else just. Everyone else just has to wait. And then he, like. Yeah, puts him back on.

[Andrew]

Just trying to figure out how he's gonna, like, what his next move's gonna be. He's like, how do I get out of this without, like. Yeah. Having to sleep on the couch later.

[Eric]

You get listeners at home, honestly, like, if you ever need just an extra second to think take your glasses off and make a show of wiping them down.

[Andrew]

You'll get my invisible glasses.

[Eric]

Ten seconds. Oh, man. Join the club.

[Pamela]

Going back to the conversation earlier could you look at this as another stereotypical moment of the wife having to defer to the husband, to have to support, you know, because his voice has impact, his voice has influence. She can't stand on her own in this moment.

[Eric]

I think in any partnership, it's a great check and balance to have your partner be able to be there. And I don't think Arthur's a bad husband. I don't think he's a bad partner. I think normally he would be there to step in and say, your mother's right, boys. You know, get upstairs. Like, that's his normal track. The fact that he doesn't do that and actually does not side with Molly should show her that she's gone too far. That, that she's too out of, you know, the opinion of it. After Arthur says his thing, she's like, well, I'm going to be outvoted. But, yeah, props to Arthur. And I think the interesting thing for me here is that what Molly is specifically arguing against in these moments is giving Harry a blank check to ask any questions he might have. She's not saying, don't tell him this one thing. She's saying, don't let him ask questions. And this specific kind of nuance here really rubs me the wrong way because not being able to at least ask a question seems a little, I don't know, authoritarian. Like, because she's protecting him, not letting him ask the question.

[Micah]

But this gets back to.

[Andrew]

I can't just say we're not. We can't know that. Like, next question.

[Eric]

Like, like, like what Dumbledore said at the end of book one. Alas, the first question you asked me, I cannot tell you, you know, but at least entertain the forum for Harry to ask some things. Anything that comes to mind.

[Micah]

This gets back to a point I raised a few minutes ago. Why didn't they prepare better in advance? Yeah, things are hectic and busy. Why not say, hey, Harry's coming tomorrow. Why don't we say X, Y and Z to him? You know, come with. You know, come with some opening remarks. And then if Harry wants to ask any other questions, he can. But they had to have known he would want to ask questions. Of course he's going to.

[Eric]

It's a great point. And, you know, if you're at war, which these people are, and you cross into a new territory and meet up with your fellow soldiers, you get a. You get briefed. You get briefed on the situation and where's Harry's brief? You know, essentially he needs that, and that's what Sirius is fighting to give him. Lupin argues that if Harry is going to get facts, he should get them from them. I, you know, agree with that. You can't trust a game of telephone to get you all the info you need. And pretty much the only thing I can say for Molly is, you know, she is actually right that Dumbledore does not want Harry to know certain things. But he did not specify. And here's another example of how Dumbledore not confiding in his closest allies about something relating to Harry ultimately is dangerous. For everybody. Because if he had just said, here's where the line is, especially now that he's coming, here's where the line is. His allies, these adults would have been a lot more prepared to handle the Harry situation and therefore the rest of the children that are living at Grimoire Place.

[Micah]

So quick question for everybody. Maybe not so quick. Whose side would James and Lily be on here?

[Eric]

I love this.

[Micah]

I mean, this is a. This is a big question, I think. But I think one reason this chapter is so interesting is because you can see the perspective of both sides. I want to say. Well, first, I think James has to be on. Maybe the answer is James is on serious side.

[Eric]

Oh, my God.

[Micah]

No, I think. I think Lily would trust James. Sorry, he's not James. Serious. I think Lily would trust Harry to know a bunch of information about what's going on.

[Andrew]

Assuming, like, they lived, but Voldemort is still trying to kill Harry. Right. Because I need some parameters here.

[Eric]

Well, if Lily and James are also equally in the dark about why Dumbledore doesn't want to tell him everything, they would probably.

[Andrew]

No, I think that they. They would have had to know. I assumed that if they. They were. They would. They were to be alive, they would know everything. Yeah, I think that, like, for different. I agree. I think that's. James would probably be on the side of telling Harry more. And I think Lily would probably say, like, listen, like, we were too young when we entered this war and I don't want that for our kid. But, like, they'd probably come to some happy medium that ends up being, like, what he's told.

[Eric]

It's an interesting question about which of his parents would side with who in this room. Because this argument exists as a result of Harry not having parents. So these people are, like, trying to play at being Harry's parents. But the other aspect is if Jillian Lames were alive, they would be saying, we'll just protect Harry. Like, you don't. We don't need to tell him everything. We'll just keep him safe.

[Andrew]

Yeah, but I think that like. Like they would also know, like, what parts of themselves their son inherited. And I think that, like, the idea of Harry being rash, like, serious, like James was like, what we know of James. I think that they would have known that, like, they would have had to tell him something in an effort to get him to cool his jets a bit while he's over at Hogwarts because they can't protect him there.

[Micah]

Right.

[Eric]

Mike, any thoughts?

[Pamela]

It is a good question because it's so hard to answer. Like Pamela saying is you need some parameters around it. Because if I'm imagining James and Lily just kind of hovering over the kitchen and the smoke that's coming from Mundungus Pipe observing all that's going on, I do think that Lily would in part side with Molly from a protective standpoint. But I also think she would want to make sure that her son was armed with the most information possible. So I could see her also leading in the direction of Sirius. It's also hard because we don't really know them as characters knowing the brave.

[Micah]

Fighting the greater good. Gryffindors.

[Eric]

Yeah, Like, I think of them as Aurors, although that's probably not true. It's just the fact that they thrice defied Voldemort. Like they've gone toe to toe with Voldemort as much as possible. The topic of what Voldemort is up to and what he's doing would have been extremely important for James and Lily to know at all times. And therefore, if they were somehow still alive and still on the run from Voldemort, you better bet your butt that they would tell Harry everything.

[Pamela]

Yeah, that's what, that's what makes me think that they wouldn't necessarily disagree with Molly's intentions, but I think they would ultimately side with Harry getting more information.

[Andrew]

Well, I don't.

[Eric]

Yeah, I don't disagree with Molly's intentions either. But yeah, the methods is just. So we have more to come after a word from our sponsors.

[Micah]

We also wanted to look at the uphill struggle against willful ignorance in the wizarding world right now. And Sirius tells Harry that it was great that they had so quickly a heads up when Voldemort returned and it gave the order an advantage. We got to give props to Dumbledore here. Serious. Said it was only because Harry went to Dumbledore and then Dumbledore got the band back together so quick that they were able to start moving on fighting back against Voldemort. So give Dumbledore some props, okay?

[Eric]

It's funny because Harry's like, so what did that do? And it's true that he has not yet seen a direct result like he hasn't himself witnessed. Harry has not witnessed the benefits of his own actions. Telling Dumbledore door, he's like, yeah, you got a headquarters, but you're not telling me any information. So how do I know you even have any information to give? Is kind of a. A fun angle, but yeah, it's. The order's in A bad spot. Sirius talks about how he himself is still a wanted man. He's not able to go out. They can't hand out leaflets. They can't. The position that the Ministry has taken means they can't openly recruit for the Order of the Phoenix. Like this is the struggle against ignorance. It's literally like the whole world doesn't know and isn't being told by the powers that be that Voldemort is back. And that is such a disadvantage to everyone who's not already in the Order.

[Pamela]

Doesn't Little Hangleton have cctv? Is that not probably something that Dumbledore could bring his evidence to Fudge and say, hey, check out this, you know, event in the graveyard.

[Eric]

Yeah, if anyone had. If anywhere in Little Angleton and cctv, it's graveyard. Because, you know, see, they're very secure.

[Micah]

I don't. I don't think there's security cameras in graveyards. That seems there is.

[Eric]

Because they have to deter grave robbers.

[Micah]

Maybe. I don't know. I have a hard time picturing that.

[Eric]

Okay, yeah, it's an aside. We'll do some research later. But yeah, there's a time to credit Dumbledore a little later. But here, let's talk about Fudge. He's keeping the public in the dark. Lupin says that being unaware makes the public much easier targets for Death Eaters also, especially on the point of the Imperious Curse. This is something that I find very interesting because the Death Eaters we know are not afraid to use the Unforgivable curses. But with Imperial specifically, you are at a. You're so much more susceptible if you're not even aware that somebody's going to come at you and just cast it. So there's an example of how Fudge's actions and his fears and. And everything he's doing just make people victims. Like people are. Are so innocent and so susceptible because of this choice that their minister has made.

[Micah]

And all in part because of Fudge's ego. He hates that Dumbledore, he thinks, wanted his position as top dog at the Ministry. I love the politics of all this too, as we learn in this chapter.

[Eric]

Yeah, it's well developed. Like, you could hate the situation but be like, this is really interesting. Fudge is also leaning on the Daily Prophet. He's suppressing whatever stories there would be. He is raising politically motivated discourse. He's encouraging everybody to discredit Harry and Dumbledore, which is what Hermione was saying in the previous chapter. And so even if they do hear What a member of the Order the Phoenix were to tell them Voldemort's back, They're less inclined to believe it. And this is the part where Fudge crosses over in my mind from unconscionable to completely insanely unforgivable. Because that's. That's really the issue. If you have really allowed for skepticism on this part. Like, you are so much worse than somebody who's just ignorant because you're causing so much there now there's so much. They're gonna have to work so much harder to get anyone to believe them the truth, by the way. Right, right.

[Micah]

And this, you know, this is something that would have been interesting to see, too, post book seven. Like, how does a new Ministry of Magic regain the trust of its citizens when it's been broken so far? Not to mention the Daily Prophet totally in the gutter in terms of its reputation and news.

[Eric]

Is there any fantasy series with good news media? Like, honestly, I need to escape into a book about good journalism.

[Pamela]

And I like the fact that you frame this as an uphill battle. It really paints the picture, the conversation that happens here, just how much the Order is up against. It's not just Voldemort, it's Fudge and the Ministry, it's the Daily Prophet. And it's meant to convey to the reader that. Look like, this is the adult side of what's happening now in the wizarding world. Because for so long we were just so focused on what was going on at Hogwarts with Harry, Ron and Hermione. Now it's, you know, we often talk about how the world opens up as these books go on. And this is another example of that.

[Eric]

Well, that's a great point because again, yeah, like you're saying, like, we. This might be the first time we really get a sense of what it's like to be an adult in the wizarding world. Like when all that stuff with the Chamber of Secrets was happening and they were like, oh, yeah, the board of governors wants to close high grades. You let go. That must be what it's like to be an adult in the wizarding world and be a school administrator, but everybody else that's an adult is having to go to work, worry about their own safety, worrying about their family, worrying about their reputation, having to sneak around, provide misinformation to that so that their allies can succeed. Like, being an adult right now sucks harder than being a Hogwarts student. And that's saying something.

[Pamela]

Yeah.

[Eric]

So it also really draws to light how much the Order of the members are all kind of misfits I mentioned earlier. But seriously, wanted man, he can't leave his house. Lupin has a funny line about not being invited to dinner places because of his werewolf status.

[Micah]

Funny. That's sad. Eric.

[Eric]

Somebody get this man an invite to your dinner party. The raw steak will be delicious. And, you know, unfortunately, like, I think what they're doing is apologizing in advance for, like, why they haven't made more gains like, Harry's. Like, what do you have to show me? Honestly, not much.

[Micah]

Yeah. But here's another plus one for Dumbledore, because it's noted here that Dumbledore is the only one who's been pounding the alarm and sticking his head out about Voldemort being back. No other Order member is able to do this.

[Pamela]

No other Order is in a position to do that.

[Eric]

I was going to say, it's because it's him, isn't it? It's him. It's always.

[Micah]

Sure. But you still. But you still got to credit Big D. Elder is the only one who's able and willing. You know, he doesn't. He doesn't have to stick his head out. He could get thrown in prison. It said that. That is stated in this chapter. He can't push it too much because he could get thrown into Azkaban and then Voldemort would have an easier time rising.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And I love. I love that line Charlie has where he says, like, Dumbledore doesn't care as long as he gets to stay on the chocolate frog cards.

[Micah]

That's great.

[Andrew]

That's so good. And Dumbledore, allegedly, he wants to make sure he's around. Yeah, but it's like, that's such a great way to, like, diffuse the worry that I'm sure a lot of them have about him being demoted or losing some of these big accolades that are. They're all being stripped to discredit him, to your point.

[Eric]

So it's so Dumbledore.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it is.

[Eric]

It's pretty badass. Like, the reason we're not having a Where's Dumbledore? Segment this week is because he just stuck his neck out bigly for the Wiz and Gamo. And you can imagine that that statement, like, would have just been amazing to witness Dumbledore coming out to his fellow Wiz and Gamo members and being like, I have an announcement. Voldemort his back. And then just being, like, trying to shut him down and him keep going and, like, just get the information out.

[Pamela]

Yeah, the. The hard Part right now is there's, there's not a whole lot of evidence for Dumbledore to present. It's really just his word. It. What else are you going to put in front of the the Wizard, Gamo or Fudge to, to prove otherwise?

[Micah]

Harry. Harry James Potter.

[Pamela]

Yeah. Not going to really do too much there, in my opinion.

[Andrew]

Give him some Verita serum and call it a day.

[Eric]

Yes, exactly. So Molly, ultimately the only control she was able to exert in the end was putting Ginny to bed, which is a darn shame. But she comes back just as they're mentioning the prophecy and says, well, that's enough. You've told him far enough already. And I guess that's where we have to leave things for this chapter. So that was exciting. But we do have a number of odds and ends to get into.

[Micah]

There was an Evanesco appearance in this chapter from Bill. It's when he has some papers out, some scrolls and Mrs. Weasley doesn't want the kids to see them so he evanescos them away. And the reason I bring this up is because they just get moved somewhere else. They're not disintegrated, thrown into a fire, never to be seen again. And yet we all can never forget that day when Pottermore or Wizarding World on Twitter said, hey, by the way everybody, I know nobody was asking, but Evanesco is great for when a student pees on the floor and it needs to be cleaned up. I'm paraphrasing but I was like wait, that's how Evanesco is used in this chapter is not how it's been described on social media by Official Wizarding World.

[Eric]

It's not all I can do.

[Micah]

Yeah, it's a very versatile spell.

[Eric]

I think what it was was before Hogwarts had indoor plumbing because that was only invented at a certain, you know, year. And it's like oh, before that the wizards just used the vanishing. It's like, oh God.

[Pamela]

Yeah.

[Eric]

But thank you Andrew, as always for keeping right on top of any reference to.

[Micah]

I keep an eye on the number seven, the number 12 and Evanesco. Those are my three lanes.

[Pamela]

Very important. Two things that caught my eye. One was just a warm hearted moment, Crookshanks balling up on Sirius's lap. And I just thought they've been buddies since Prisoner of Azkaban because it. I was thinking to myself, well wait, why is Crookshanks being so nice to Sirius? And then I remembered back there their buddies communication in book three. And then we have a foreshadow alert. When Fred and George are using magic to try and help Molly out with dinner they end up dropping a knife. And the knife drops right where Sirius's right hand was previously.

[Eric]

Ooh, Ooh.

[Pamela]

Now, can I ask a question on this, though? If Molly hadn't yelled at them, do we think everything would have flown all over the place?

[Micah]

They got it. It wasn't helpful.

[Eric]

Yeah, they got another good note because, like, the cauldron, like, yes, it sloshes a little bit, but it stops at the end of the table. They're good. They're good.

[Pamela]

Poor Sirius.

[Micah]

I want to throw out another foreshadow alert, too. Dong actually asks Sirius about a 15th century solid silver goblet. And to me, this is foreshadowing. Dong ransacking the place after Sirius Black dies. Curious about what he's got on hand.

[Eric]

There's also. We're always looking for evidence of the Horcrux inside Harry that negatively affects his mood. And I found what I think is my favorite one that we've ever covered before which is when Ron and Hermione are arguing to be included. Ron says, harry will tell me and Hermione everything you say anyway, won't. Won't you? He added uncertainly. And then it says, douche. Harry's about to come about. Come out, it says. For a split second, Harry considered telling Ron that he wouldn't tell him a single word, that he would try. That he could try a taste of being kept in the dark and see how he liked it. But the nasty impulse vanished as they looked at each other. And then he says, of course I will. And Ron and Hermione both beamed. I think they're relieved. So this moment of Harry's instinct, his mood is rotten. He's still pissed at them and he's inclined to actually tell Ron, no, I'm not telling you anything. But then he looks at his friends and what's happening is the same thing that happened with the Dementors earlier in this book. He's overcome with love. Even in the most dire circumstances, it bursts out of him. He can cast a whole Patronus. It drives out this influence from Voldemort. And, you know, we know that when Voldemort tries to take possession of Harry at the end of this book it's that love that drives Voldemort out. So the closeness, the quickness with which Harry, like, looks at Ron and all of a sudden this nasty crap evaporates and he tells Ron, of course I'll tell you everything. Wow. I think that's an example of the Horcrux's influence on Harry.

[Micah]

The weapon we have is love to quote the wizard rock song by who was that? Harry and the Potters.

[Eric]

Harry and the Potters. So before we wrap the chapter we have a Lynx line question this week which which is I'm very fond of these answers and we asked the question the Order of the Phoenix is made up of teachers, parents, criminals, ours and more. But when we think about the group and our favorite members, what characters stick out from the Potter series that haven't joined the Order at least as of where we're reading now in book five and how would the series be different if they had joined the Order? So who what characters aren't in the Order but should be and we heard from Leah Jameson who says Forens it's always a good idea to include different perspectives and having more non human beings like centaurs would be a certain would bring a certain wisdom to the group's decisions. Plus he's been othered from the herd at Hogwarts so he might need somewhere to go.

[Micah]

Brienne said Professor Flitwick I feel like he is such an underappreciated character who is pretty badass with charms and a few other listeners said Flitwick as well. For example Barry said former dueling champion is exactly who you need. Also Ollivander would be a great resource even if he feels a little chaotic neutral as a member.

[Pamela]

Monet said Oliver Wood they need some new grad slash young blood on the team. He's strategic, nimble and athletic. Plus since he's playing professional Quidditch he can make oh so important alliances cross country and internationally and travel without suspicion.

[Eric]

Oh I like that last part. Travel without suspicion.

[Micah]

Mev said Neville's grandmother she is badass.

[Eric]

Oh that's such a good one.

[Andrew]

Do you think she would agree though? Because I don't know, I could kind.

[Micah]

Of go back let me stay at home. I'm too old for this.

[Andrew]

My son and his wife are you know, at the same Mungo's oh my God, I've had enough.

[Eric]

I think. Yeah, you've solved it Pam. Why Dumbledore hasn't invited her.

[Micah]

She's been too much.

[Eric]

I bet she would have words with Dumbledore if he was like do you want to join my order? And she's like you're caused I'll show.

[Andrew]

Up for the final battle but not a second before. Oh man.

[Micah]

Well how about this lady? Rachel said as awesome as it would be for the owners of Honey Dukes to drop in with snacks. My answer is Madam Hooch. Seriously, what happened to her? She always seems so shrewd. She'd be a good addition.

[Eric]

Jennifer says, I think for the purposes of camaraderie through the wizarding world, we should include the goblins. They have control of Gringotts Bank. They know all its secrets. Bring the goblins and humans together to help fight Voldemort. I gotta say, this is reminding me between friends, goblins, all these other suggestions that for somebody who preaches international magical cooperation and read that to be multi species cooperation, Dumbledore's Order of the Phoenix is not very diverse in species.

[Micah]

No, I really like this one from Kurowy Chloe Ernie from the Night Bus. I feel like Dumbledore would find value in a bus driver who sees and hears all kinds of things while out on his route. Just like how Mundungus Fletcher is a good ally in the underground scenes. Plus free transportation for order members.

[Eric]

That's really funny one from Steph Wilkie Twycross, the apparition instructor who works at the Department of Magical Transportation. Imagine how much easier Harry's trip from Privet Drive to the borough would have been with an insider on board. And he's such a wet blanket that no one would suspect him to be part of the order. So he'd fly under the radar both literally and figuratively.

[Micah]

Thank you patrons for submitting those answers. We, we are really liking this new segments that we have over on our Patreon. Stay tuned for more questions and answers in the weeks and months ahead. And now it's time for MVP of the Week. And this week's theme, Eric, is most.

[Eric]

Outrageous over the top thing that Molly Weasley does in this chapter.

[Micah]

I'm gonna give it to when she says he's not James Sirius. That was a low blow.

[Eric]

Yeah, Sirius didn't say he was. Hello? Okay, I think it's still the interrupting dung's apology because darn it, I would have wanted to hear or read that. So just to tell him off for smoking. Come on.

[Pamela]

I am actually gonna let Pam go first here because I am going to plus one what she says.

[Andrew]

Okay, good strategy, Micah. Minus throwing Sirius's wrongful incarceration right back in his face because that was ridiculous.

[Pamela]

Yep, that was probably the worst thing she said to him.

[Eric]

There's a lot of bad things, but yeah, I'll agree.

[Micah]

Listeners, if you have feedback about today's discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to mugglecast gmail.com. we also have the contact form on Mugglecast and I think we're gonna have a Muggle mail episode in the next couple of weeks.

[Eric]

Two weeks.

[Micah]

Two weeks time. Next week, as we approach Halloween, we're gonna have a special episode for everybody that we are calling the Wizarding World Graveyard. But we're not looking at canon. We're gonna look at the various parts of the Harry Potter franchise that have been buried by Warner Brothers and Rowling over the years. Things like Pottermore. Wizards unite. I'm actually wearing a wizards unite T shirt right now. And actually, I don't know if you three saw, but just the other day they put something else in the graveyard. But I'm gonna leave it right there as a teaser for next week. You're just gonna have to find out. You're just gonna have to just have to peek into next week's stock.

[Eric]

Fair enough.

[Micah]

We've got a good list already going in that doc, which is also another Patreon benefit. You get access to our planning docs. So now it is time for everybody's favorite game show, one that will never be buried. Quiz Edge.

[Eric]

Aw. Last week's question was in honor of the portrait of Walburga Black. What famous artist and sculptor was given an exclusive license to use a material known as Blackest Black? This really happened. You can Google it. The correct answer was anish Kapoor. And 32% of people said they didn't look this up. He is definitely a name in the art world. So last week's winners were as follows. A ravenclaw in Maryland. Andrew's elbow. Oh, that was nice of your elbow, Andrew. To submit Quizzic answer. Crookshanks is squashed and fried eggy face after Ron hit it with the frying pan he was using to make breakfast. Distant relative Vantablack Black. That's actually an Anish Kapoor reference. Very clever, Elizabeth K. I am studying art in college and we talked about the feud over it today. So I was very happy when I heard the quizzes question. Wow. What are the odds of that? Jim Dale is my husband. Low back slow black crow black fishing boat bobbing sea. I don't know what that's a reference to. Me checking temu's new arrivals every day for Laura's pants. Patronus seeker puff down under serious in Tibet. Max. That and the one that Neville left in his back pocket that made his bottom so long. And here is next week's question. Since there was a lot of talk in this chapter about being of age, please Quizzage entrance. Name a nation within the United Kingdom where the legal voting age is 16 years. That's kind of early. Kind of young to be voting.

[Pamela]

I thought that you were doing this in celebration of the upcoming election day here in the United States.

[Eric]

I don't want to think about the election day.

[Pamela]

Register to vote.

[Eric]

Nope, not thinking about it.

[Pamela]

To go out and vote.

[Eric]

Yeah, you should. Ready?

[Micah]

Willvote.com, my favorite website.

[Eric]

In the United States, you have to be 18 years of age to vote, but what nations can you be 16 within the United Kingdom? That's a good reference, Micah. It's definitely worthwhile. Everybody check your voter registration status and submit your quizzage answers to us on the quizzitch form mugglecast.com quizzage or click on quizzage from the main nav. If you're already on our website looking at transcripts, checking out must listens or any other thing that you would do.

[Micah]

And this show is brought to you by Muggles like you. We are an independent podcast and because of that, your financial support is very important. In fact, it's the only reason we've been able to podcast for 19 years and counting. We got three great ways you can help us out. If you're an Apple podcast user, subscribe to Mugglecast Gold. You get ad free and early access to Mugglecast, plus two bonus Mugglecast installments every month. We're going to be recording a brand new one after today's episode. For even more Benefits, hit up patreon.com mugglecast you get the links line, the live streams, a personal video message from one of the four of us, and a whole lot more. Also number three, best way to support us, visit mugglecastmerch.com for all your brand new merchandise. Don't go to TAMU for Laura's pants. Come to mugglecastmerch.com for Laura's pants. I don't even think Pam gets this reference and she's probably very concerned about what we're talking about.

[Eric]

Don't worry, Pam. It's.

[Andrew]

Yeah. What are you guys doing with Laura's pants?

[Micah]

We're gonna send them back.

[Andrew]

Yeah, okay.

[Micah]

Yeah, don't worry. She's cool with this.

[Andrew]

It's.

[Micah]

It's a old joke.

[Andrew]

Got it.

[Micah]

If you enjoy Mugglecast and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show. And we would love a five star review in your favorite podcast app. Pam, thanks again for joining us on today's episode. We'll catch you on what the hype and Millennial every week, too. Well, thanks, everybody, for listening once again. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Pamela]

I'm Micah.

[Andrew]

And I'm Pamela.

[Micah]

Bye, everybody.

[Eric]

Bye. Bye.

[Andrew]

Bye.

[Micah]

Sa.