Emotional Support Hippogriff (OOTP Chapter 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward)

Summary

MuggleCast: The Harry Potter Re-Read Podcast – Episode Summary Episode Title: Emotional Support Hippogriff (OOTP Chapter 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward)
Release Date: April 22, 2025
Hosts: Andrew, Eric, Micah

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Introduction

In this episode of MuggleCast, the hosts dive deep into "Order of the Phoenix", specifically Chapter 23, "Christmas on the Closed Ward". Balancing their discussion with updates on the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show, the hosts provide insightful analysis and engaging commentary for both longtime fans and new listeners.

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Casting News for Harry Potter TV Show

Andrew begins the episode by sharing exciting casting news:

• John Lithgow as Dumbledore
• Janet McTeer as McGonagall
• Papa Esia as Snape
• Nick Frost as Hagrid
• Luke Fallon as Quirrell
• Paul Whitehouse as Argus Filch

“If I'm Paul Fallon, I'm like, oh, my God, I got cast in the Harry Potter TV show. Oh, it's just the first season. Oh, bummer.” – Andrew [04:43]

The hosts discuss the implications of these casting choices, noting the fresh faces like Luke Fallon bringing new dimensions to characters who had shorter screen times in the original films.

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Deep Dive into Chapter 23: "Christmas on the Closed Ward"

Harry's Emotional Turmoil

The discussion kicks off with Harry's bleak emotional state as he grapples with feelings of being possessed and unworthy. Eric articulates: “Harry ultimately feels unworthy and tarnished and tainted and poisonous, and he takes to essentially distancing himself from everyone more than he was before.” – Eric [12:08]

Micah emphasizes the depth of Harry's struggle: “Like a 15-year-old feeling that way. It's disheartening.” – Micah [14:01]

Interactions with Adults and Dumbledore’s Role

The hosts critique Dumbledore's approach to Harry's predicament, highlighting a lack of direct communication and support: “Somebody definitely should have been Harry's mentor during this time.” – Andrew [16:28]

Eric adds: “Harry is in a better place, I think, in almost every book. And after the Prisoner of Azkaban encounter, it might be the only other time when really nobody can help him.” – Eric [21:50]

Friend Intervention and Support

A pivotal moment in the chapter is the intervention by Harry's friends, particularly Hermione and Ginny. Micah notes: “Hermione's the only one who could say something like that.” – Micah [29:51]

Andrew underscores the importance of this support: “This is just a great example of what happens when you do go and talk to your friends.” – Andrew [34:46]

This intervention helps Harry begin to break free from his isolation, illustrating the power of genuine friendship and understanding.

Phineas Nigellus Black’s Appearance

Phineas Nigellus Black makes an appearance, delivering a dismissive message from Dumbledore: “Harry’s pulling his trunk out the door. The carpet is stuck, otherwise he would have been gone.” – Eric [20:32]

The hosts debate the effectiveness of Phineas’s role: “Dumbledore should have deputized someone to communicate with Harry.” – Andrew [40:00]

This interaction further emphasizes Harry's frustration with the lack of direct support from the older generation.

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Lupin’s Role and Longbottoms’ Story

Lupin’s Comforting Presence

Lupin arrives at Grimolet Place to comfort Molly Weasley, showcasing his innate ability to understand and support others: “Lupin shows up and is actually praised for kind of seeing immediately what the problem was and going to her.” – Andrew [46:28]

Eric appreciates Lupin's continued support: “Lupin is just the perfect person to comfort Molly just then.” – Eric [49:36]

Longbottoms at St. Mungo’s

The episode delves into the heartbreaking story of Neville Longbottom’s parents, Frank and Alice, who are permanently incapacitated due to torture by Death Eaters. Micah reflects: “We see the real effects of the first Wizarding War... impacted in other ways.” – Micah [58:34]

This segment highlights the lingering trauma from the war, adding depth to Neville’s character and the broader narrative.

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Christmas Gifts and Their Significance

Thoughtful Gifts from Friends

Andrew and Eric discuss the meaningful Christmas gifts received by Harry, emphasizing the thought and care behind them: “The defense books from Harry's gay uncles. They really kind of understand the assignment.” – Eric [64:52]

Micah points out the sentimental value of these gifts: “They're still a meaningful gift from his parents.” – Eric [62:53]

These exchanges underscore the importance of supportive relationships in Harry's life.

Gilderoy Lockhart’s Appearance

Lockhart makes a surprising appearance at St. Mungo’s, showcasing his continued presence despite his downfall: “It's a great callback... added a lot of background to this character.” – Micah [54:56]

The hosts contrast Lockhart’s lack of genuine connections with the supportive relationships Harry enjoys with his friends and mentors.

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Listener Stories: Links Line

The hosts share heartfelt stories from listeners about non-material gifts that hold significant sentimental value:

• Emily recounts a student's gift during a tough time at a toxic school.
• Brianne cherishes a bonsai tree bonsai tree made from her son's home run ball.
• Manda shares a touching story about a meaningful photo from Universal Orlando.
• Zachary talks about treasured mementos from his childhood.
• Kayla values stuffed animals gifted by family members.

“That's beautiful.” – Andrew [66:33]

These stories resonate with the episode’s themes of support and meaningful connections.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with the hosts encouraging listeners to engage with their content, leave reviews, and share the podcast with friends. They tease upcoming discussions on Chapter 24 and other related topics.

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Notable Quotes

• “Harry is in a bad place, you guys.” – Andrew [01:20]
• “You have to listen, right? You don't need to show up with the solution.” – Eric [38:54]
• “He thinks Voldemort might burst out of his skull.” – Micah [05:15]
• “Dumbledore should have deputized someone to communicate with Harry.” – Andrew [40:00]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of MuggleCast offers a comprehensive and thoughtful analysis of Chapter 23 in "Order of the Phoenix", blending character exploration with broader thematic discussions. The hosts' engagement with listener stories adds a personal touch, making the episode both informative and emotionally resonant.

For fans eager to delve deeper into the Wizarding World and stay updated on the Harry Potter TV show, MuggleCast continues to be an invaluable resource.

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Stay Connected:
Follow MuggleCast on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook for the latest updates. Support the podcast by visiting patreon.com/mugglecast and check out the hosts' merch at mugglecastmerch.com.

Transcript

[Eric]

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[Micah]

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[Eric]

The missing child is Lucia Blix, 9 years old.

[Andrew]

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[Eric]

The secrets they hide. You can't talk about this, you can't write about it are the clues.

[Micah]

The mother's hiding something. I know it.

[Eric]

To find her, tell me where she is. The stolen girl. New episodes Thursdays stream on Hulu.

[Andrew]

McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with one of six collectibles and your choice of a Big Mac or 10 piece McNuggets with spicy nether Flame sauce.

[Micah]

Now available with a Minecraft movie meal.

[Andrew]

And participating McDonald's for a limited time. A Minecraft movie only in theaters. Welcome to Mugglecast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

And I'm Micah.

[Andrew]

We are your Harry Potter friends talking about the books, the movies and the forthcoming TV show. So make sure you follow the show and your favorite podcast app so you never miss a new episode. And on this week's episode, please tell the nearest teenager to stick right where they are. Dumbledore's orders because we are discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward. Ho ho ho. You know, I was going to bust out a Santa hat, but it's packed away deep in the the Christmas bins. I was like, oh, that's a lot of work.

[Eric]

I have one, but it's just out of reach.

[Andrew]

Oh, all right. Well, Eric and I are wearing, frankly, one of the best Christmas gifts ever. A Mugglecast t shirt. Our 19 years later t shirt.

[Eric]

That's right. It even makes a good Christmas in July shirt.

[Andrew]

It sure does. You can actually get these on our overstock store right now, mugglemillennial.etsy.com we'll have a link in the show notes while supplies last. We have these available. We gave these to patrons for free last year. We have some extras and we're selling them in the overstock store now, so please don't miss out. So, very special anniversary shirt. Mugglecast, 19 years old. 19 years later. This is our epilogue year. Please grab them while you can. They are great shirts.

[Eric]

And I must say, though, I'm surprised if we haven't joked about this already. But we all, 19 years later, have aged more gracefully than the cast did in that original epilogue.

[Andrew]

Yes, we have aged like a fine wine.

[Micah]

And I would have worn my Muggle calf shirt tonight, but I wanted some balance amongst the three of us.

[Andrew]

Right, that's fair. Yeah. Well, Micah, we eagerly await you wearing the shirt next week.

[Micah]

Next week?

[Andrew]

Okay, we'll send a memo to Laura too, and you two can match next week.

[Micah]

Sounds good.

[Andrew]

Well, 19 years later, believe it or not, we are still talking about Harry Potter. Casting news. And Warner Brothers finally officially announced the first six Harry Potter TV show cast members. Now four of them we already knew about. John Lithgow, who has made it no secret that he is playing Dumbledore in recent weeks was confirmed, as was Janet McTeer. She'll play McGonagall. Papa Esia do will play Snape and Nick Frost will play Hagrid. There were two more cast announcements we had heard no rumors about. Luke Fallon will play Quirrel and Paul Whitehouse will play Argus Filch. Luke Fallon, only 29 years old. He's a little younger than when Ian Hart portrayed Quirrell in the movie. Luke Fallon, also a bit of unknown. He's only had roles in theater, hasn't really had any on screen roles.

[Eric]

It seems really cool. What I love about sort of the youth and the other characters that we're now getting is obviously this is, you know, Hagrid, McGonagall, Dumbledore there for the whole series. Quirrel is a character just in the first book. And so now we're kind of able to look at who are the characters that are going to flesh out the world within the confines of this story of this year, and we can start to see how the season will take shape, not just how the series will take shape, if that makes sense.

[Andrew]

If I'm Paul Fallon, I'm like, oh, my God, I got cast in the Harry Potter TV show. Oh, it's just the first season. Oh, bummer.

[Eric]

But there are no small parts. You gotta make it your own. He actually has more time, maybe four or five times more time than Ian Hart did to make a lasting quarrel impression.

[Andrew]

That's true.

[Micah]

It's got to set the tone right. This is the first adaptation and look Quirrel gets a reference in this chapter that we're about to delve into. In Order of the Phoenix.

[Eric]

Yeah, plus it's our first connection to Voldemort, the man who's actively trying to kill a baby.

[Micah]

Still now that's going to be interesting though, to see who gets cast as Voldemort.

[Andrew]

Yeah, who fits well on the back of Luke Fallon's head.

[Micah]

And will that ultimately be different than who gets cast as Voldemort in Goblet of Fire?

[Andrew]

Oh, good question.

[Eric]

Are they going to go ahead and cast Voldemort the whole way through? That would be wild.

[Andrew]

Yeah, like, oh, we'll see you again in three years when we shoot season four of the Harry Potter TV show. Or maybe they can include Voldemort in movies two and three with like, I don't know, we get some behind the scenes looks at, I don't know, Pettigrew working with him or something like that. That could be cool.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we'll have to see.

[Micah]

Why not seven? Why did we go with six?

[Andrew]

Well, I thought the same.

[Eric]

The seventh one better be Peeves the Poltergeist. That is who I want to know. Not even that I care who is getting cast. I'm sure they'll do a great job, but I want to know that that character is in the movies because I think it's the natural progression. If you're not going to tell us about the kids, who's the next most important character in the first book? It's Bev's.

[Andrew]

I'm sure they have a seventh cast member already locked in. They could have thrown into this announcement. To your point, Micah, make a beautiful round seven person casting announcement. Paul Whitehouse, I mentioned he's going to play Argus Felch. He's got the Felch look. No doubt about that. He's had a lengthy film career. But get this, he actually played Sir Cadogan in the Prisoner of Azkaban movie. He had a little cameo in a portrait. So this is kind of our first Harry Potter movie to TV show actor CrossFit.

[Eric]

I thought that was kind of fun.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

If you had money on Sir Cadigan you just made bank, he would not have been at the top of my list as far as movie to TV crossover.

[Andrew]

Yeah, switching roles too. It'll be interesting to see if any other. Because obviously there are so many, well, children and adult actors in the Harry Potter movies. Are we going to see any other crossovers?

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Didn't Jason Isaac say he wanted to play Lily Potter or something like that.

[Eric]

In the TV show Hermione he always says Hermione. Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

Was it cut? Was that Sir Cadigan cameo cut, Kyle saying it was cut?

[Eric]

I think so. I seem to remember going through the deleted scenes for that DVD and it's like a minute long clip of the knight brandishing sword.

[Andrew]

Well that makes it even more interesting. It's almost like he got a second chance at appearing in a Harry Potter work. Thank you Kyle. Who's listening live? So those are the updates for now. Continue to stick with Mugglecast for continuing coverage of the Harry Potter TV show. We're also covering all the news on our social media channels. So hop onto Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, et cetera, search for and follow Mugglecast to stay on top of the latest Harry Potter TV show news. And if you love Mugglecast and want to help us keep things running as efficiently as St. Mungo's does, Please please visit patreon.com mugglecast and pledge today you'll get instant access to over 150 bonus Mugglecast episodes. You'll get ad free episodes of the show. You'll get a new physical gift every year. You'll have the chance to co host the show one day and a lot more. We could not do this without you and we appreciate you more than I think Neville appreciates a good gum rapper. Eric what's coming up in bonus Mugglecast this week we're recording a new one.

[Eric]

Yes, of course. Now we have taken to playing some games sometimes on bonus Mogulcast. We've always done that. But recently there was a board game day in Chicago between Micah, myself and Meg. Today we will be playing Scribble, the fantastic online drawing game. We have a series of words developed by Meg that are all Harry Potter themed and basically it's kind of like Pictionary and other games where you have to guess what the other one is drawing. And so the three of us will be playing that game. There are points, extra points awarded to how quickly you get it and if nobody gets it, it's a sad, sad day.

[Micah]

Didn't we do a version of this at Leaky Con in Portland?

[Eric]

It is very familiar. Although I must promise that in the last two years I've gotten better at drawing thestrals if I happen to have to do that. But, but yeah, it's going to be great. And like, like I mentioned, all of the bonus Mugglecasts that we've done are just still on our Patreon and it's something I always point out to new patrons too. There's so much content on there now.

[Andrew]

Yeah, and it's fun for us to as much as we enjoy doing chapter by chapter, it's fun to play games to your point, Eric, or discuss other elements of the Wizarding world because we don't have time for it on the main show. One other great way to support us I mentioned the Overstock store and the shirts Eric and I are wearing tonight that you can buy while supplies last. But another great way to support us is to pick up [e-mail] also tell a friend about the show. And please leave a review of Mugglecast in your favorite podcast app. Finally, visit mugglecast.com for quick access to all this information and lots more like our contact form. And now, without further ado, it's time for chapter by Chapter Order of The Phoenix Chapter 23 Christmas on the Closed.

[Eric]

Ward we last discussed this chapter in episode 460, which was titled Looney Lockhart. Gee, I wonder why. Kind of a weird character to bring up in the middle of book five. That episode was from April 7th of 2020, and here's our clip three times should do a living.

[Andrew]

Good luck. What the episode 460 and also just an example of how Harry isn't thinking of who he can go to for help. Ginny should have seemed like a really obvious choice.

[Micah]

Yeah, I also found it odd that these two were both possessed in some way by Voldemort, but yet they end up getting married. So I wondered if that was like a common thing that they bonded over.

[Andrew]

Hey babe, you remember when you were possessed by Voldemort and Ginny's like, actually, no, but I'll pretend I do.

[Micah]

Go back to bed, Harry.

[Eric]

Mysterious thing time.

[Andrew]

In my dating profile, I'm going to add being possessed by Voldemort as a trait I'm looking for in another person.

[Eric]

Oh man.

[Micah]

Yeah, Let us know how that goes.

[Andrew]

Yeah, let's see what my partner thinks of that. My current partner.

[Eric]

So in the beginning of this chapter, we've said this. I think we could have started any of the last 20 chapters like this. But Harry's in a bad place, you guys. Is not helped by he at least now has a word for what he may have been experiencing, but it's not a good word. It's possessed. And Harry ultimately feels unworthy and tarnished and tainted and poisonous, and he takes to essentially distancing himself from everyone more than he was before. As they're heading on on the train on the underground back from St. Mungo's to Grimmauld Place. He's not sitting with anyone else because he's worried either Voldemort is going to look straight through his head and see them and attack them the way that Harry wanted to attack Dumbledore, or that he's putting them at risk just in general from being around them. It's just not a great place to be in.

[Micah]

No. And I know you said that Harry has been in a bad place in past chapters, but now he's in a bad place. Like this is probably some of the more challenging texts to read throughout the Harry Potter series. And yes, he is comparing himself to Quirrell. He thinks Voldemort might burst out of his skull. But going off of what you were saying, Eric, when he's on the underground, it's noted that he feels dirty, contaminated, as though he were carrying some deadly germ. Unworthy to sit on the underground train back from the hospital with innocent, clean people whose minds and bodies were free of the taint of Voldemort. Just think about that for a second. Like a 15 year old feeling that way.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think he feels like his personal space was violated, his body was taken over. Yeah. So I can see why he would be feeling that way. I don't want to get too specific or grim here, but I think there are people in our real world who feel this way when they are, let's say, taken advantage of.

[Eric]

These are common feelings for those who've suffered assault and all sorts of horrible things. And it's this guilt where we see it with Harry. He blames himself for not being able to control the fact that Voldemort is possessing him or he thinks he is. And that's not logical. But emotions are not logical. You know, essentially Harry thinks that he should either be better at defending himself or like identifying what it is and stopping. But in his failure to do that, he is now harming himself by isolating himself and essentially in this chapter plans to move back to Privet Drive where he will be absolutely not wanted and even further abused, but at least further away from the people that he care, that he cares about.

[Micah]

And the other quote that I just wanted to mention from this kind of opening two pages, he starts to think that he's actually the weapon that is being referred to by the Order earlier on in this book. But. But it's noted that it was as though poison was pumping through his veins. And we can analyze that on a number of different levels. Poison being Voldemort Poison being the Horcrux, poison being this uncleanliness that he was referencing earlier. Maybe it's a combination of all of those things. But again, for a 15 year old to have to go through this is disheartening. And I thought reading back the first two or so pages of this chapter were just very hard to read. And shame on the adults for not engaging Harry more. We see Mrs. Weasley make an attempt. She clearly knows that something is off with Harry. But there are more adults in this equation and none of them really step up to try and help him.

[Eric]

That's a real shame.

[Andrew]

Somebody definitely should have been Harry's mentor during this time. And I know Micah, you in particular. I'm fearing that we're going to be fighting a couple times during today's episode.

[Micah]

Let's go.

[Andrew]

You know, you've been very critical of Dumbledore and I agree to an extent. But Dumbledore does have his reasons to not make a direct connection and have a direct conversation with Harry. And honestly, Dumbledore avoiding Harry is very compelling from a reader standpoint. Why is Dumbledore avoiding him like this? Why is Dumbledore giving him the cold shoulder? So you have to keep that in mind. But I think Harry should have probably been offered some sort of middleman.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Between he and Dumbledore who could relay information back and forth. Now, how you explain this to Harry in a way that will please him, that will satisfy him, I don't know exactly. But something should have been put in place of Dumbledore and Harry talking to one another directly.

[Eric]

Yeah. And if it's a question of trust, like there are people in the order that you can trust. I think McGonagall was one such person who could interact with Harry both as his head of house, but then also as like a liaison to Dumbledore. I think that at the end of this book when Harry's going around smashing things, and rightly so, he, you know, Dumbledore kind of talks about how much he cares for Harry and oh, I didn't tell you the truth then because I care for you so much, or, oh, bless, it's old age. I care about you so much. And it's like, well, if you care, like, it's one thing to come straight out and risk everything you're trying to do with the Order by showing up in front of Harry and having Voldemort burst through. Okay, I get it. But deputize someone, because if you care. This child is suffering. And now it's been going on for months. And he's just had a dream that had real world consequences and he woke up and he had to tell his best friend and his entire family, six siblings and a parent, that he saw it happen and that it. And then find out that it was real. Like, you absolutely need to step up your game, Dumbledore. Get somebody out there to talk to him. And the person that eventually gets appointed with the handling Harry situation, Snape is completely the wrong person for this.

[Andrew]

Well, yeah, I mean, he's good at teaching occlumency. That's why he is given this role. Right. And by the way, it's. We just have to wait till the next chapter. There isn't too much time to wait before Dumbledore really starts putting some plans into action to help her out.

[Eric]

Well, that means that when we're discussing this chapter, we have to go as hard as possible against Dumbledore.

[Andrew]

No, but you also have to understand this chapter, it's set around the holidays, right? Dumbledore was just planning to circle back after the holidays. In terms of taking circle back. Yeah. Let's put a pin in this until after the holidays.

[Eric]

Well, you know, I will say, in the absence of these adults and it's worth noting, right, Even Sirius Harry came to Sirius last chapter. We talked on last week's episode about how that was insufficient because actually one of the reasons is that Sirius and the other adults haven't been prepped with what they are allowed to say to Harry and what they might expect to come from him. I think that part of the reason that Harry feels toxic or this might inform it is because they think he's radioactive, like a little bit. Like they're probably against their best interests keeping like a distance from Harry. Or even if that's true only 1% of the time, he's going to perceive that because it's under a magnifying glass right now and he's going to further retreat into himself. So it's really not a good state just to get in, you know, to that. But there is one adult that comes over to Harry and it's Phineas Nigellus Black, former headmaster of Hogwarts. And Harry's pulling his trunk out the door. The carpet is stuck, otherwise he would have been gone. And Phineas, Nigel's Black, says, hey, I got a message from Dumbledore. And Harry's like, oh, oh, yeah. And he says, yeah, stay put.

[Andrew]

That's the message.

[Eric]

Thanks. Dumbledore wasn't there. I'm imagining like a party, that thing you blow. But like one that sounds completely pathetic. Womp, womp.

[Andrew]

Yeah, well, and then Harry gets angry at this information and then Phineas snaps at Harry, basically telling him, oh, Harry, you're just another know it all kid. Dumbledore's never actually put you into trouble when you listen to his instructions. All you kids are exactly the same. And I do have to say that Phineas is right to an extent. He, Harry is the age where he thinks. And all teenagers thinks, think they're know it alls. They don't want to listen to adults. They're a little bit entitled and that it's their way or the broom way. And this is point to Phineas's point. Harry even pouts back to his bed and throws himself face down on the mattress. Total I didn't get my way type of move.

[Eric]

He's complying. He's not leaving.

[Andrew]

Yeah, and I'm glad he complied, but he's, he's pouting about it, so he made that noise too. So I, you know, I. Correct me if I'm wrong, but some people have said they don't really like Harry in this book. I'm starting to understand.

[Eric]

Yeah, I wonder why. Well, not because he's this way. I don't like Harry in this book because he's made to suffer, not because he's unhappy. You'd be unhappy too, right? We all would. Yeah, but, but it's, it's the combination of everything that's happening to him externally that's that he's reacting to and then everything that's happening internally that's being put on him by the circumstances that he didn't ask for. And nobody's allowed to, kind of nobody that is equipped to help him navigate some of these things is allowed to help him. And the people he's surrounded with are out of their depth. So it's just a sticky situation to be in. Like, Harry is in a better place, I think, in almost every book. And after the Parcelmouth encounter in book two might be the only other time when it's just really like nobody can help him. And Dumbledore then is there to provide some comfort, but it's just kind of, kind of too little too late on the part of Phineas Nigellus. And, and Harry is reminded that at the beginning of the book, when the dementor attack happened, what was he told? Stay put. And so, like, that's not a solution. You know, it's, it's. Dumbledore is communicating absolutely as effectively as he can and, and as directly as he can, but he's not taking into account as right as Phineas may be about attitudes or whatever. Dumbledore is just not addressing Harry's very obvious panic and emotional, the way that he's feeling and unclean and everything.

[Micah]

It just goes against everything that a 15 year old would want to do in this particular situation. And who is Phineas Nigellus Black to give Harry any direction on what he should be doing? He hasn't even interacted with him before up until this point. And I think this is something that we mentioned the last time we did this chapter by chapter. But isn't it a bit strange that Dumbledore has a direct line into Harry's bedroom?

[Eric]

Yeah, he doesn't use it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, well, it's not like Dumbledore's sitting there watching it. Is Phineas.

[Eric]

Well, you know what's weird about it though? And I, and I agree it's weird. But Harry recognizes Phineas Nigellus voice.

[Micah]

He's heard it before from the video game.

[Eric]

Well, there's. Okay, there's one thing about the video game I want to say, but first. No, he recognizes Phineas's voice. So I looked back at the original chapters. When Harry first arrives, finds his bedroom, etc. There's no conversation. The portrait is empty. It's just an empty frame. But in a particular moment when Harry is complaining about Dumbledore, Harry hears from the frame a snigger.

[Andrew]

Mm.

[Eric]

So this is a common. Probably this is a common theme with. Phineas has already made up his mind about Harry's attitude problem and authority problem and he's done it, you know, three months ago. So this, this comes to a head. The thing about the video game I want to mention is where do we think Phineas Nigellus Black got a distaste for Hogwarts students from? Oh, maybe the events of Hogwarts Legacy. Maybe it was your punk character that impersonates him. I think what spells him out of the way and does some really weird stuff, confesses all the wrong secrets and stuff to the whole school. You know, I like to think it was our Hogwarts Legacy characters that gave Phineas this chip on his shoulder.

[Andrew]

Before we move along in the chapter, I want to say a couple more things. First of all, in the next scene that we're going to discuss, even Hermione tells Harry to stop feeling misunderstood, which is kind of similar to what Phineas is saying. Stop pouting, get with it. Wake up. And that's Harry's best friend and number two. And this is a point for Harry. Harry is worried that he is being used as a weapon by Voldemort. And at that moment it might not be exactly true, but by the end, Voldemort is using his connection to Harry to take advantage of him. He lures him into his trap by the end of this book. So Harry was right to be concerned about this type of thing happening, and it's probably something Dumbledore should have anticipated sooner, as I think Micah lectured me about last week.

[Eric]

Well, that's an interesting point, because the comfort then that Harry feels in the next scene, starting in the next scene and lasting through the rest of the chapter is sort of, in a way, false comfort and false hope after he rules out being possessed. Nevertheless, there is an opportunity there for Voldemort to abuse the connection between them.

[Micah]

I don't know that it's necessarily full on possession.

[Eric]

It's not.

[Micah]

It's almost just mind penetration and trickery. But it's not the same thing as what Ginny went through.

[Eric]

Right? And she explains that. Which we'll get to in a minute. But first, before we continue our chapter discussion, let's hear a word from our sponsors.

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Only C store online for details. So Harry, after he's done, head first into the bed. I'm so misunderstood. He gets up and decides to hide in another room, Buckbeak's room. And there he is, found by Hermione. And here's the thing, there have been a few conversations, a few kind of tough conversations between Harry and Hermione in this chapter or in this book so far. But for some reason this one works. This one because it's. I think it arises from genuine concern. Ginny's in there, Ron is in there, Hermione's in there. And they're able to just. Yes, they tell Harry to like not flip out and stuff, but what they're saying is a lot of what you're feeling is in your head or it's a confirmation bias. So it's not that we're avoiding you. You are literally going to Buckbeak's room. We couldn't even find you the first four rooms we looked in. You're avoiding us and we would like you to not do that because we want to be with you, even despite this info. And I think it's just that that forced care, that forceful care that really kind of at first helps break through and soften things for Harry.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think sometimes when you're really down in the dumps, you can have a hard time reaching out for help or thinking that people won't want to help you or maybe you don't want to open up. And you can see why Harry wouldn't want to open up. He feels dirty, he feels violated, he. He's feeling things he's never felt before. So I can see why he would really be closed off. But good on Hermione for forcing her way forward and talking to Harry because who knows how much longer this would have went on for.

[Micah]

She doesn't have any time for that. And I think that's honestly one of the refreshing things about her. And she wasn't somebody though that was a part of this situation that Harry and Ron and the other Weasleys were for the last several days. Right. She was removed from everything that had been happening to Mr. Weasley. So to get somebody that's a little bit more so on the outside of what was going on, she just comes in and she's not standing for any of it. I think she knows Harry in a way that Ron doesn't and they connect differently than Ron and him do. And let's not forget this happened to Ron's dad. It didn't happen to Hermione's dad. It didn't happen to a relative of hers. So it's a little bit of a different dynamic. And I'm not sure that even though Ron can sit there and be like, yeah, man, I've been trying to talk to you for the last couple hours or the last couple days. Has he really, though? We haven't really heard about Ron approaching.

[Eric]

Oh, this has become a. It went from a Dumbledore assassination episode to a Ron assassination episode.

[Micah]

You know, Ginny says similar things, but we haven't really been told about them approaching him. Like he's secluded himself in the house and I'm sure it's a big house with lots of rooms and not easy to find him if he doesn't want to be found. But I'm not sure how much effort has been made, to be honest with you.

[Eric]

Well, I'll defend Ron here just very quickly and say that Ron might actually be thinking that he's respecting Harry by giving him space. You know, different people have different ways of coping and cooling down. And sometimes that is isolation. Isolation is not, you know, always negative or always harmful in the way that. That. That it is clearly for Harry because he feels like poison. But I think that Ron, in addition to not knowing what to say, he's not as emotionally intelligent, maybe as Hermione might be. But he also respects Harry enough to realize that sometimes you do need to just be alone.

[Micah]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I did find it somewhat interesting that Harry feels safe with Buckbeak. That's where he goes to hide away. And it's also somewhat comical that Buckbeak is still eating rats. There's a lot of throwing it back to Prisoner of Azkaban.

[Andrew]

I think this proves that Buckbeak is actually Harry's emotional support hippogriff. That's canon now.

[Eric]

Well, there aren't any other hippogriffs in the running.

[Andrew]

I declare canon emotional support. Animals are really hot right now, so.

[Eric]

We'Re gonna bring that back. That segment. That clip has gotta play more. So the biggest thing, and this is a great moment for Ginny. I'm a huge fan of Ginny. No surprise there. But she comes in, matter of fact, her emotions are set aside, except they're not, because she wants to help Harry. You can feel it. She wants to help him, but she just straight up says, do you remember what you're doing half the time? Do you know how you get everywhere that you get? And Harry's like, yeah. She's like, you weren't possessed. I know, because I was possessed, you'll recall. And I didn't know I would wake up places, not know how I got there, et cetera, et cetera. And this is really the first chink in the armor. This is the first time Harry knowing enough about magic to know that certain types of magic really are funneled into certain different ways, that this beyond a shadow of a doubt, like this tiny little question about maybe he wasn't possessed. Maybe the adults are wrong. Maybe it's the wrong word. Maybe there's. Maybe there's hope for him not being the weapon or for him not being toxic to his friends. All of this hope kind of overwhelms Harry's faculties. And even during the conversation as it continues, as this sort of intervention continues, he's immediately feeling better. And it's all because somebody said, hey, I have this experience. And that's not what you're going through. Like, not to invalidate, but it's. You're definitely going through something, but it ain't that. And Ginny's the only one who could say something like that.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And so he starts opening up a little more, and then he starts feeling better. And by the end of this scene, his heart swells with happiness and relief because he thinks he is not the weapon after all. And I think this moment in between Ginny and Harry is just a great example of what happens when you do go and talk to your friends. They can. Or a therapist, they can help you see alternate ways of thinking that you weren't considering before. You were just thought spiraling. You were going one direction, down, down, down, turtles all the way down. And then here comes Ginny being like, well, you weren't possessed, and here's why. And it's pretty simple. And Harry's like, oh, my gosh, I didn't even think of that because I was thought spiraling.

[Eric]

Right. Well, it's also a great ad campaign for having more than one friend. Right?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Have a couple with different life experiences, and you'll be stunned and surprised with the difference in perspective and how helpful it can be to your point, Andrew.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

And just looking at the situation, holistically I think we need to keep in mind Harry is 15 years old here. He's not an adult. And it's easy for us to sit here and to criticize his actions, but he's a kid who for the better part of his life was forced to live in isolation. He lived under his aunt and uncle's staircase. And it's fair to say that he doesn't know how to ask for help. And the adults that could be helping him are behaving like children themselves.

[Eric]

Any in particular?

[Micah]

Dumbledore. We'll talk more about that.

[Eric]

I thought you were gonna stay serious. And I'm relieved.

[Andrew]

Phew. To Eric's point about having different friends who give you different perspectives, I'm friends with M because he keeps me humble about Dumbledore. Alternate perspectives, that's good for you. No, but I. I will. I'll build on your point, Micah, and just add that I don't think any kid knows how to express their feelings or ask for help. It's very rare in kids Harry's age. And to your point, that's why Dumbledore or another adult should have been more helpful in getting Harry to talk.

[Eric]

Yeah, I mean, I think it is. Although no one really knows what anyone else is going through, I think it's pretty darn obvious that Harry Potter has been through more than anyone else in this whole world the last, you know, every one of the last several years. And if anyone needs a hug or an extra person to come in and say, hey, you all right? It's going to be Harry.

[Andrew]

Or an emotional support Hippogriff. Carly listening live says Buckbeak is actually Sirius's emotional support Hippogriff. I agree with that.

[Eric]

We gonna redeclare canon?

[Andrew]

Nah, I redeclare canon is what is true.

[Eric]

So the big thing for me too is I would love it if we all like us as people in the real world and the characters in the books just were actually better about asking for help and reaching out to others when we're feeling undone. If I'm getting down. And lately it's happened a bit about different things happening in the world, talking it out. Not even with someone I'm paying a therapist who's great, but still anyone talking it, saying it out loud, having a sounding board, somebody who cares about me as a sounding board is great. Like Martha is fantastic at listening. My cat, but also Meg. And you know, it just. It doesn't have to be like, if you catch up with somebody you haven't heard about, you'd be Surprised to know what their perspective on something might be.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I like talking about my issues with my emotional support. Hippogriff. But a good therapist will also tell you you shouldn't just rely on me to express your frustrations to talk to your friends. Or you shouldn't just rely on your romantic partner. Trust other people. Open up to other people. You can't put all of your issues on one person. You're meant to talk to other people.

[Eric]

It takes a village. But in this case, the entire Order has been more or less forbidden from coming to Harry in this manner because Harry's a special case. That is Dumbledore's to tell what's going on and Dumbledore's chosen to avoid him. Like, like that's the pro. I think to some extent none of the adults would feel comfortable reaching out to Harry because they don't have answers and that. That's a common trapping of adults, right? Sometimes you just need to listen, right? You don't need to show up with the solution.

[Andrew]

Right?

[Eric]

But because Dumbledore has not really told any of the adults anything he's thinking or anything close to what he's thinking. They're going to use the wrong words for things. They're going to start thinking Harry's really being possessed. And that just makes things worse. So I think in the. If, if Dumbledore was going to avoid Harry the way he has been he should have deputized somebody to actually be the point person. Actually somebody that he trusts to know a little bit more than what he's telling Joe Schmo Order.

[Andrew]

Well, apparently Dumbledore and Hermione are talking. Hermione acknowledges that in the chapter. So Hermione could have been that middle man or woman. I think McGonagall could have been as well. Somebody to express sympathy towards Harry and say, I hear you. What you're going through is tough. There are definitely some good options who Harry, I think would have connected with.

[Eric]

I think this chapter really, with this friend intervention. It's. It's really divine because these are the. The friends of his that he goes to the Ministry with at the end to save Sirius, to rescue Sirius. They're all present in this room except for Neville, who's also present in this chapter and oh, maybe Luna, but she's always supportive. But I think this really does begin the process of Harry. It snowballs into Harry trusting others. And that's why he even thinks of not just going alone. I think is he's starting to unlearn what he's learned to be independent and not ask for help by the end of the book.

[Andrew]

I do love that when Harry's like, oh, but Voldemort could have transported me out of Hogwarts. Hermione reminds him, well, if you actually read Hogwarts history, you know that you can't operate in or out of Hogwarts.

[Eric]

Well, here's. Here's a moment when Ron steps in. Ron says, hey, mate, I saw you. You were in bed minutes before you woke up again.

[Andrew]

It's basically what we're talking about here. You start sharing your problems with people and they help give you this array of evidence to make you actually feel better about a situation.

[Eric]

It's wild.

[Micah]

What is interesting about what you're saying about Ron, though, is was he willing to offer that information prior to this? Because he was clearly in a pretty challenging state of mind given everything that had happened. Maybe if he would have shared some of that with Harry before. A couple days after this all transpired, Harry might have felt a little bit better. Is that fair to say?

[Eric]

I don't know that he withheld this information. I think it's. With Ron, it's like you have to ask a question to get a reply kind of thing. Yeah, like he's not going to volunteer.

[Micah]

I think it goes back to some of my critique of him earlier, but again, he's young. He's the same age as Harry, and so I don't really put blame at the feet of any of the children here. What I do have a problem with is the fact that the headmaster of the school is 10 times the age of Harry in this chapter, and he's behaving like the child. He's not acting like the adult in the room. He's running from. Harry, don't look at me, Harry. Don't look at me, Cooties. Yeah, I mean, come on.

[Eric]

I'm going to send Phineas. Go tell him to stay put.

[Andrew]

Micah, let's see how you behave yourself at 150 years old.

[Eric]

All right, we're going to go to an ad break while Andrew and Micah fight it out.

[Micah]

No, it's. I will agree with Andrew that I think that Dumbledore has more to deal with than Harry understands at the moment. But he's also the one that has all of the information and sharing is caring. And I just think there needs to be more. I think Andrew and I can agree before we head to the break that Dumbledore needs to be doing more in this situation.

[Andrew]

Yes, Micah, I agree.

[Micah]

There we go.

[Eric]

Wow. You guys resolved that it's the holiday season.

[Micah]

We need to.

[Andrew]

All right, we'll see you all next week. Yeah, episode's over. We're in a good mood because of Easter, Passover.

[Eric]

And now a word from ourselves.

[Micah]

What's Christmas?

[Andrew]

Oh, oh, in the book. I thought you were talking about the Easter holiday and Passover. Okay, never mind.

[Micah]

It works on both levels.

[Andrew]

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Learn more about the all new 2025 Nissan Armada at nissanusa.com Towing capacity varies by configuration. See Nissan Towing Guide and Owner's Manual for additional information. Always secure cargo so we've spent a fair bit of this time on today's episode talking about characters who don't do emotions. Well, let's talk about some positive moments now, because it turns out after Harry is able to sort of turn that corner and begin to see things a little bit more, hopefully there are also gestures of goodwill toward man and really lovely things happening at Christmas at 12 Grimmel Place. And St. Mungo's big thing for me is Lupin. In this chapter. Lupin shows up, it turns out, at Grimoire Place just in time because Molly has received Percy Weasley's sweater that was returned to her. And this is the kind of thing where, again, the kids are actually avoiding Molly. They're like, she's inconsolable. We tried. Friend George, I think, tried to comfort her. It didn't work. And yet Lupin, an outsider in the family, shows up and is actually praised for kind of seeing immediately what the problem was and going to her. And this goes way back to Lupin in the chocolate, when Harry's, you know, suffering from the dementor effects the first time, like he has the remedy. He knows kind of what to anticipate and how to handle it. He knew what Harry was Feeling weak for having fallen to the Dementor. And he's just the perfect person to comfort Molly just then.

[Andrew]

But it's also so awful what Percy did. Sending back a hand knitted sweater like that is so mean. That's your mother.

[Eric]

To be fair, it's like the ninth sweater he would have gotten for the ninth Christmas sweater.

[Andrew]

But he's a growing boy. He needs a new one. The other one's probably shrunk or he lost them or they smell bad.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Micah]

What's he going to wear on casual Fridays at the ministry?

[Eric]

That's a good point. I didn't think about casual Fridays at the ministry. Here's something else in that. And we're going to talk eventually about the best Christmas gifts of this chapter. But Lupin and Sirius. Turns out Harry's gay uncles both go in on a gift together. And it's a set of practical defensive magic books. And this is just an example of somebody that knows Harry nailing it. A lot of gifts that Harry gets are good. Some of the gifts he gives are good. But Lupin and Sirius really kind of understanding the assignment because Harry is now that he's like not distracted by the whole possession thing, already starting to lesson plan for the new year. And that's going to be great. Yeah.

[Andrew]

And I think another reason that Skips are so thoughtful is because they know Umbridge is not teaching them any actual defensive magic. Like they're not using it in practice. So I think it's just really nice that Lupin and Sirius are trying to help him out at a time when the Dada class at Hogwarts is useless. And also excellent here is that Lupin was the Dada teacher. So to have him now continue to help Harry is pretty cool.

[Eric]

You know what? That's cool. He could have been like, this is the book that I relied on, you know, to kind of plan things. Yeah.

[Andrew]

How I taught y'all.

[Eric]

Oh, that's so cool. Lupin being of course the best teacher that Harry's ever had. So wrapping up on Lupin though, there's one other thing he does that I think is maybe the, the, the sweetest thing that he does. Which is when they're at the ward at St. Mungo's, we all remember that Arthur has a ward guest, a bedmate who's a werewolf. And you know, Arthur was trying to comfort this young man. Last chapter, we heard about this and he was told to like, stuff it. The guy didn't want to hear what he was selling. That he has a friend who's a werewolf. Now Lupin is showing up. Everyone is there seeing Arthur and Lupin completely unbidden, unasked intuits that he's gonna go and say something to this other patient. And this other patient who was looking so hopeful, like. So even though he issued contact and didn't ask Arthur for the. To talk to the werewolf. Whatever, Whatever. When you see 10 people walk in on Christmas and you're alone in the hospital getting better or for something that isn't even getting better you don't know somebody coming over and taking the time for you just for a couple minutes, whatever they're going to talk about but somebody who has something in common and can give you hope. The same kind of hope Ginny gave Harry Lupin gives to this werewolf. It's not all over for you. Amazing.

[Andrew]

Yeah. This was really nice character development for Lupin. And I thought it highlighted how people with similarities be it a condition, a sexuality, a background, whatever have to look out for one another. And I think Lupin's comfort will go a long way when it comes from another werewolf. You know, kind of like it gets better thing my guy, you know?

[Eric]

Yeah, no, really like you, my wolf. And sometimes you wouldn't trust anyone that. Other than somebody who'd lived and walked a mile in those shoes.

[Andrew]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Eric]

You know, there are too many reasons to be suspicious of it. So, you know, I also think it's nice to see in general that Sirius is happier than ever. I think is. Sirius Black's happiness is probably at a series high. We know that he too has been feeling isolated and now, ever because of what happened to Mr. Weasley everyone is staying at Grimoire Place which is much closer to St. Mungo's than Audrey St. Catchpole. So I think that that's a really nice thing to see. I mean, Sirius is going around humming.

[Andrew]

Christmas carols his home is filled with people who he loves and he's helping the order out. Maybe Christmas is his favorite holiday as well. Good thing he's so happy now because this is his last Christmas. Like, there's a bunch of reasons. You can see why Sirius is in a good mood right now.

[Micah]

And who knows how many happy Christmases he actually even spent inside of grim old place.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

Yep.

[Eric]

Yeah. Well, and, and, and they've decorated, which is really nice. And in fact, I mean, Sirius is kind of lulled into a sense of whatever the opposite of alarm is because unfortunately, like we found out during this chapter they still haven't seen Creature in a little while. And. But Sirius is in such a good mood that he also doesn't investigate further because this is the kind of time where even Harry's noticing. Okay. That's how you know you have a problem. Harry's like, hey, come to think of it, I haven't seen Creature and series like, huh, Yeah, I haven't either.

[Andrew]

I'll circle back after the holidays.

[Eric]

I'll circle back after the holidays. Yeah, he did the Dumbledore excuse.

[Micah]

And for us as the readers, it's all being set up very craftily, especially given that Bellatrix's photo is on full display in Creatures Nest. That's what it's referred to as. And she is later brought up at the end of the chapter as one of the main people responsible for the current conditions of Frank and Alice Longbottom. So we should definitely be very wary of where Kreacher is for sure.

[Eric]

A couple other honorable mentions for people who are in good states and doing good for others. Arthur's thrilled to see people. He's in such a good mood that he gets to confess his silliness in his folly in trying to use Muggle stitches, which apparently wizards have never heard of. So Arthur has to explain it and Molly, who sews is like, oh, dear God. Not that. Anything but that. Arthur, you didn't.

[Andrew]

Well, it serves as a vehicle to get Harry out of Arthur's room. And it, you know, stitches are effective for Muggle. So I. Molly's kind of overreacting here, even though it doesn't work out for Arthur, but his attack was very unique and that's why the stitches weren't working. I give him credit for trying.

[Eric]

No, that's a good point. There's no reason why stitches wouldn't work, even on wizards, if it's not a magically, like, staying open wound the way that we know it is. So there is that. And, you know, we. We actually see someone else in good spirits today. It's Gilderoy Lockhart, their former Dada professor turned curious in resident of the spell damage ward. And the interesting thing here, you know, I'm not going to credit Lockhart for anything, but his handler is kind of going the extra mile to round up these children that just, just happen to walk by and they happen to remember him, they happen to notice him, recognize him. The handler pulls them into the room and says he rarely gets company and they're obligated, but they, they stay. They're there for, you know, a decent.

[Andrew]

Amount of time, spreading some Christmas cheer.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Do you think they feel obligated in.

[Andrew]

Any way because of the events of Chamber of Secrets, I think they're feeling a little Christmas cheer. They want to spread some Christmas joy. But the handler also notes that Gilderoy never gets visitors. And I just think that speaks volumes to how fake of a person he was pre memory wiping. He built no real connections with people during his coherent years. And so there's nobody who loves him. And it's sad, but it's a reflection of who Gilderoy was. And I just loved this callback. Like getting Lockhart kind of out of the blue. We never expected to see him again. And then he's introduced over a holiday. It was a really interesting surprise. That also added a lot of background to this character.

[Eric]

And I think too, it just really works. There's so many questions about who Harry is and identity and stuff. And to find Gilderoy here, it's like a puzzle box of, well, what remnants of his identity are kind of still in there, you know, and what memories are kind of coming back now a little bit.

[Micah]

I find it funny that we're calling it his handler. The way I read it is may even be his boo. Like they seem.

[Eric]

No, Gladys Gudgeon is his boob.

[Micah]

Well, she's a fan. No, it's just funny to me because of the way she kind of talks. And I don't know if it's just kind of in cutesy speak because of the mental state of Gilderoy or does she find herself maybe a little bit taken with him? We know, like he was appealing on some level.

[Eric]

What I'll say, what I'll say to this though is that I think that that is the type of relationship that is perfectly normal and encouraged for nurses long term patience is you have familiarity. What, what I think you're sensing, Micah, what we're reading in this chapter is that she genuinely cares for his well being. And that's an uncommon thing to care so much if somebody else is getting the company that they need or getting enough company or stopping by. So. So I think that's what it is more than. More than any like, romantic thing between the two of them. I think it's her job to take care of him. And she probably views that as a like in a holistic sense. Like even if it means getting him some facetime with a couple of people that he obviously doesn't remember, but who might remember him.

[Micah]

And it can't be easy for her to be in that kind of job. And I do think that the reason that Lockhart is in this scene is the setup for the Longbottoms, because we're able probably on some level, to laugh a little bit about seeing Gilderoy again. And he's still in this state. But we start to realize the more that the trio and Ginny interact with him, how sad it actually is. And then it's like this big setup for Alys and Frank and it's like, whoa, this is actually not all that funny at the end of the day. And we're seeing the real effects of the first war when we talk often about the first Wizarding War. And it's appropriate that we do actually meet them in this book because it is the Order of the Phoenix. This is the second coming together. And for them, not all sort of negative impacts of war felt in those that we lose. People are impacted in other ways. And we see that come to the forefront in this chapter with the Longbottoms.

[Andrew]

There are things worse than death.

[Eric]

And the greatest thing I think about, again, continuing with people making the right choice and being there emotionally for one another is that Harry is all too protective, making sure that. And trying to get no one to watch Neville and notice him. And when that fails, every one of these kids steps up and they're somber and they don't ask too many questions. I think maybe Ron does, but, you know, ultimately they're quiet and respectful to Neville, who is in this situation.

[Micah]

Isn't it interesting, though, that you go from Lockhart, who they were probably pretty comfortable making some jokes on the side about giving him. He did it to himself. Well, no question. But the conditions are not all that dissimilar between him and the long bottoms. But yet when they get to the long bottoms because they know Neville and because of the situation, it's like, okay, wow, hold on. This actually is really serious, right?

[Eric]

Well, they had that done to them. They were tortured into insanity by Bellatrix Lestrange and Rudolphus and maybe Barty Crouch.

[Andrew]

Jr. And I think in terms of how the kids react to Neville's parents, I think they're getting hit over the head with a hard dose of reality. I mean, they're seeing firsthand just what the war did. And this is. This is. This is their friend's parents. Like, this is tough to see. And such a. In such a raw state too, not to mention unexpectedly so tough times at St. Munga's.

[Micah]

There is a connecting the threads, though, like there is in much of this chapter going back to Prisoner of Azkaban because we get the introduction to the real Augusta Longbottom. We saw a version of her briefly in Prisoner of Azkaban via Neville's boggart. But it is nice to meet her, even though it is under these circumstances. And it's gotta be impressive to Harry, Ron and Hermione that she knows who they all are. Yeah, it's like one of those situations where maybe you meet your friend's parents or somebody and they automatic you are because your friend talks about you so much but you've never actually heard.

[Andrew]

I've heard so many good things about you.

[Micah]

Yeah, it's one of those moments. And just one other thing I wanted to mention before we wrap up the chapter is the infamous bubble gum wrapper theory. This was such a longstanding theory that somehow, some way, Alice and maybe Frank were passing messages to Neville via the bubble gum wrappers and perhaps that would come into play in future books. Of course, we learned, I think it was directly from the author that that wasn't the case though. It was just kind of a sentimental thing that she did with her son.

[Eric]

And yet, if you're looking for clues, like the old J.K. rowling website, there were bubblegum wrappers scattered all around on the desktop and around the. You know, and, and, and it seemed very plausible. We mentioned this every time this chapter comes up. But, you know, I think a big portion of that theory comes from Wizarding World Press and the Ultimate Unofficial guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter. I wanted to read here because I was like, you know, we credit it enough and we talk about this theory. But like, here's what was actually said. First of all, who is giving the gum to his mother? And should we be suspicious of it? Neville's mom did seem to think it was important that Neville be the one to receive the gum wrapper. Does she recognize him at all? If Neville keeps saving her wrappers, what's he doing with all of them? Is there something special about the gum, the wrappers, or is someone doing something to them? And it's an open question. I mean, it was. Eventually nothing came of it. But I love the possibilities of what might be occurring.

[Andrew]

While there wasn't any truth to that very cool fan theory, it does end up being important because these gum wrappers mean a lot to Neville. I mean, they're still a meaningful gift from his parents.

[Eric]

That's the thing is like, whether she recognizes him or not, Alice, he'll have this gift from her.

[Andrew]

Yeah. It is still like a link between them. And I think you could see why Neville believes that she still recognizes her son because she regularly hands over these.

[Eric]

Gum wrappers and he pockets it and Harry thinks that that's sad, but I think it's lovely.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Couple of odds and ends before we wrap up today's chapter. First of all, just rereading this chapter. It made me think that the removal of St. Mungo's from the movies is even more shocking when you consider that Harry goes back there twice in the book. This wasn't a one off scene. There's pivotal stuff happening here twice.

[Eric]

It's all over Christmas break. We can just. Harry Potter, you saved my life. Yes.

[Andrew]

Well, like we said last week, this will just be one big max that event.

[Micah]

Lots of opportunities and we got to meet. Well, not really directly meet, but we were in the same room as Broderick Bode.

[Eric]

The Broderick Bow.

[Micah]

The Broderick Bow. The Unspeakable. And I think it was the last chapter, wasn't it? Where somebody was showing up to pay him a visit.

[Eric]

It was a wizard with an ear trumpet, I guess that failed to kill him so they needed to put in the devil's snare.

[Micah]

Yeah. So he receives a plant that will ultimately kill him. Guess they don't screen at St. Mungos. It's the holidays, you know, they're okay with letting gifts slide through on the down.

[Eric]

Did we say this last week? It's pre 911 so that's fair.

[Andrew]

Yeah. You would think they would check that type of thing because this place is about wizards and witches getting better, not worse or dying. So yeah, good call out.

[Eric]

It's time that we talk about the Christmas gifts that were given in this chapter. What was the best gift someone received in this chapter for Christmas?

[Andrew]

I think it was Hagrid's sort of mini monster Book of Monsters book that he gave to Harry. That actually is a wallet. Harry says that the wallet actually bites back at him. So in classic Hagrid fashion, it wasn't totally spot on. There was something a little off about it. But I would want one of these wallets that bites at anybody who tries to get into my wallet. Of course. I should be able to get through.

[Eric]

Yeah. Maybe stroke the billfold or something.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And you whisper, it's me, your. Your owner, your money daddy.

[Eric]

You have to feed it money to like keep it, pet it and take it for walks. Yeah, I'm going to go ahead. I already said this, but the defense books from Harry's gay uncles. Thanks. Thanks, Wolfstar. They give. They literally. They don't give two gifts. They give one gift as each other to Harry. I love it.

[Micah]

I'm going to go with Dobby's picture of Harry. His painting. Look, it comes from the heart. And I will say this, Harry all over Dobby's gifts. He did it in Goblet of Fire too, and I don't think it's right.

[Eric]

No. And Harry took down all of Dobby's hard work at the Room of Requirement too, for Christmas break.

[Andrew]

All the Christmas.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

I mean, that's not a very hairy Christmas.

[Micah]

Dobby shows nothing. But maybe Harry should talk to Dobby about what's going on.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Emotional support, elf.

[Andrew]

And then maybe Harry will start respecting those gifts that Dobby so kindly gives him.

[Micah]

He's going to regret it in a couple books.

[Andrew]

Aw.

[Eric]

And now let's get over to our links line. I'm really looking forward to this segment. Picking up from the gum wrappers, we asked our patrons over on our links line, what is something someone gave you that has little or no monetary value but which you hold absolutely dear and would be devastated to part with? What's the story associated with it?

[Andrew]

Inspired by those gum wrappers, Emily said, I'm a teacher and a few years ago I was working at a super toxic school. In addition to that, my husband was going through some health issues. I told my students a little about it to explain the absences. And one of my kids made the sweetest gift. He decorated a box and filled it with Reese's and tissue paper flowers. It had a note saying, I know you're worried about your husband, but everything will be okay. Trust me. I teach fifth grade. By the way, he had also handwritten dad jokes to read to my husband. I'm at a new school now, but I will always keep the box to remember the thoughtfulness of a 10 year old. Wow. That's beautiful.

[Eric]

That's amazing. Brianne says my dad makes a ton of different trinkets, like wooden gnomes, bonsai trees made of wire, fairy houses for kiddos in his free time. Cool dad. Growing up, softball was always our thing. When I was hired as a softball coach at the high school I teach at, he surprised me with one of his bonsai trees sitting on one of the home run balls from my playing career that I had given to him. He had kept it all these years. It sits on my desk at school and always reminds me of him and the game that we both love.

[Micah]

Manda says I have a picture of me and a stranger riding Hagrid's Magical Creature Motorbike Adventure at Universal Orlando framed in my office. To be brief, several years ago I went on a birthday trip to Universal but unfortunately cannot ride Hagrid's due to my size. Universal rides are notorious for not being size inclusive. A year later, after lots of hard work running, etc. I went back on a solo trip to Universal. When I tried the test seat and fit with no concerns, I was in tears and was so incredibly proud of myself. I shared how special this was with the team member there and she not only escorted me to the front of the queue, she met me after the ride and gifted me this photo and shared how happy she was for me. I will never forget her kindness. She was even a Slytherin and this photo means so much.

[Eric]

Sorry, this takes me out of it. I think people are lying on baseline submissions. I can't believe this.

[Andrew]

Zachary said. I grew up on a street with three boys I consider my brothers. All of our families treated us as such. One of my brother's grandmother was an accomplished musician and conductor and would always travel and bring us stuff from wherever she went. I have a coffee mug from Zach Theater that I refused to part with because of the sentiment. The mug is well over a decade old and I still use it. Every week means more now that she's no longer with us. Side story out of the four of us, three got tattoos representing Moony, Padfoot and Prongs. And as a send off to our childhood we got Mischief Managed tattooed as well.

[Eric]

Wow. I love that fourth friend that was like I'm not getting Wormtail tattooed on me.

[Andrew]

Oh I have an idea. The four of us including Laura of course should do this and I'll get Wormtail since the author called my old site Wormtail.

[Eric]

That's true. That's. That's okay. All right, you can find it.

[Andrew]

I am a Slytherin too, so I mean I feel like that tracks even.

[Eric]

Though I just looked. Yes, the Austin the or the Zach Theaters in Austin, Texas. These are really really sweet stories. Kayla says the only thing I can personally think of would be all the stuffed animals I was gifted in my childhood. I have about three that come to mind. I was given by family members whether it be my mom, my cousin or my dad. And even though I am no longer a child, I still have these stuffed animals because the significance of who gave it to me is what's important. I have a fairly large stuffed tiger that's lying down that my mom gave me when I was a baby, I have a kind of medium sized stuffed pitbull that my cousin gave me and I have a similarly medium sized stuffed rottweiler that my dad had gifted me I keep them on my display bookshelf in my office and will probably never give them away because of what they mean to me. Hey, I still have my stuffed animals too.

[Andrew]

I still sleep with a stuffed animal.

[Eric]

Really? Pat?

[Andrew]

Yeah, no, his name is Little Gouda. He's a Squishmallow. I highly recommend a Squishmallow. I love them. Lil Gouda. That's the official name. I wish I could send us a picture.

[Micah]

And finally, Carly says, I'm an elementary school music teacher. I have one of those accordion folders where I've kept every drawing and paper, excuse me, and paper gift that students have given me over the years. I put them up on the wall the day they're given and at the end of the school year they go into the folder. I love looking back at ones from previous years while I put the newest ones away. Specialist teachers are often forgotten during gift giving times like Christmas and teacher appreciation, so I really do treasure every little card and coloring book page I'm given.

[Andrew]

Awesome. Well, thank you everybody who participated in this week's links line and listeners. You can participate by becoming a [e-mail] mugglecast if you have any feedback about today's discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voicemail memo that you record on your phone to mugglecastmail.com and next week, Chapter by Chapter continues with Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 24. Check out our other weekly podcasts, what the Hype and Millennial for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. What was up on what the Hype this week, you two?

[Eric]

We are full steam ahead on the Last of Us, HBO's show, and there is a lot of excitement there towards the new season. Maika recently caught up too, so we hope to see you on some of those episodes.

[Micah]

Yeah, look forward to it.

[Andrew]

And then over on Millennial, we were discussing why millennials think they are pros at surviving recessions, because we've been through more than one at this point.

[Eric]

Honestly, what's the opposite of a recession? And when have I experienced it? Because in this economy, I've been saying that for 12 years.

[Andrew]

And now it's time. And now it's time for Quizzage.

[Eric]

This week's Quizzage question. The London entrance to St. Mungo's features a mannequin that moves and articulates. What is the name given to the ambulatory mannequins, meaning they walk in the first episode of the 2005 Doctor who revival. These were of course the Autons. The Autons driven by the Nestocene consciousness. I can't believe that only 24% of people did not look this up. Guys, there's classic. Classic but correct answers were submitted by a Healthy Breeze Buff Daddy Hufflepuff, the Magic Dragon. I don't know anything about Doctor who, but I watched the Lego Batman movie, so I know about the little trash can robots. That's true. I think those are them. I learned Joined up writing to submit this answer. Hilarious. It's a fez. Fezes are cool. It's the last week of Lent, and I can't wait to listen to Bunkercast again. Still waiting for Micah's cover of the mysterious ticking noise from episode 276, when I first started listening Team Frenchie from the Black Rock the Chosen Pun the Duck's True Sigma Love and Tofu Tom Wow. Okay, that was a. That was a wild ride. But here is next week's Quizzic question. What actor or comedian once eschewed photographs, meaning they said no in favor of handing out cards? Reading this certifies that you've had a personal encounter with me and that you found me warm, polite, intelligent and funny. And it's not Gilderoy Lockhart, by the way, for whom this question is based. Please submit your answer to the Mugglecast website's quizzage form mugglecast.com quizzitch or if you're already on the website checking out transcripts or something else must listens page, you know where to find us, et cetera, et cetera. Click on Quizzage from the main nav.

[Andrew]

Thank you everyone, for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. Make sure you follow us in that app as well. And tell a friend about the show if you think they could use some more Harry Potter friends in their lives. I am Andrew, your poor puffed up popinjay.

[Eric]

I am Eric, the fan of the Gay Uncles.

[Micah]

And I'm Micah. All right, see you next week.

[Andrew]

Bye. And I'm seeing you next week by.