Gin and Tomic (HBP Chapter 13, 'The Secret Riddle')

Summary

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MuggleCast: The Harry Potter Re-Read Podcast

Episode: "Gin and Tomic" (Half-Blood Prince Chapter 13, "The Secret Riddle")
Date: January 27, 2026
Hosts: Andrew, Eric, Micah, Laura

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Episode Overview

This week's episode embarks on a deep dive into Chapter 13 of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, "The Secret Riddle." With much-appreciated gin in hand, the hosts dissect Dumbledore's visit to a young Tom Riddle at the orphanage, explore parallels between Harry and Voldemort, debate Dumbledore's choices and ethics, and tease out the foreshadowing and psychology behind one of the series' most pivotal flashbacks. Expect their signature witty banter, thoughtful analysis, and a memorable detour into fandom theories and Hogwarts recruitment policies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gin, Chill Banter, and Trivia Corner

• Notable Quote ([01:11] Andrew):
  "I need this gin to cope with Micah's questions during this week's bonus Mugglecast."
• The hosts kick off with jokes about gin and the American vs. British vocabulary in the books ("mouth organ" vs "harmonica"), establishing a lighthearted but nerdy tone.

2. Half-Blood Prince Audiobook Update & Harry Potter Fandom News

• Discussion of the new full-cast Prisoner of Azkaban audiobook (David Holmes—Radcliffe's former stunt double—voices Stan; Iwan Rheon plays Lupin).
• Notable Quote ([01:56] Eric):
  "If you don't remember [Iwan Rheon] from Game of Thrones, you're lucky. He had a very lasting impact..."
• Reflection on how fandom evolves, the upcoming Harry Potter TV show, and the podcast's increasingly adult, Patreon-exclusive content.

3. Parallels: Harry and Young Tom Riddle

• Major Discussion Start [08:47]
• Both Harry and Tom come off "demanding" and impatient with Dumbledore, feeling disconnected and longing for answers.
• Notable Quote ([09:31] Andrew):
  "The through line is that Harry has felt distant and disconnected from Dumbledore and almost like he doesn't know him, just like Tom doesn't know him."

4. Dumbledore’s Handling of Draco and Katie Bell’s Ordeal

• Dumbledore seems to minimize the Draco threat, referring to Harry’s accusations as mere "suspicions."
• Notable Quote ([14:50] Andrew):
  "Dumbledore also describes Harry's allegations as suspicions, which I think is a little belittling..."
• Hosts question whether Dumbledore's reticence to share information is justified, or detrimental, both for plot and ethics.

5. Mundungus, Aberforth, and Crackpot Mirror Theory

• Fan Theory Mail [17:38]:
  Rachel proposes that Dumbledore may have allowed Mundungus to sell Sirius’s mirror to Aberforth for posthumous Harry surveillance.
• Summary of Reactions: The hosts find the theory plausible; it reframes Dumbledore as more complicit in the chaos at Grimmauld Place and in the events of book 7.

6. Pensieve Mechanics: Watching Burke’s Memory

• [20:21]—They note the difference between observing a memory on the Pensieve’s surface vs. full immersion, comparing it to a "quick look" or "file preview."
• Questions about what's left out when Dumbledore curates memories for Harry and what context is missing.

7. Dumbledore and Mrs. Cole: Gin & Confundus Charm

• Major Segment: "Getting Drunk with Dumbledore" [23:31]
• Dumbledore uses both gin and the Confundus Charm on Mrs. Cole, the orphanage caretaker, raising ethical issues.
• Notable Quote ([25:37] Andrew):
  "Is this any different than Tom using his powers on the other kids in the orphanage? It's all a power play, right?"
• The group weighs Dumbledore's greater-good motives against the manipulation and lack of agency for Muggles.

8. Recruitment Process: When Hogwarts Makes House Calls

• Dumbledore visits young Tom; later, Hagrid similarly brings Harry.
• [30:30] Eric speculates that staff are dispatched to homes of students who wouldn't otherwise know they're magical: "Maybe Dumbledore is part of like an advanced team..."

9. Merope’s Naming Choices and Patriarchal Dynamics

• Puzzling over why Merope included "Marvolo" in Tom’s name despite his abuse.
• Insider interpretation: She likely acted out of ingrained familial loyalty and the Gaunts’ patriarchal values.

10. Early Tom Riddle: Foreshadowing and Pathology

• Key details: Tom never cried as a baby, was feared by other children, and keeps disturbing "trophies."
• Notable Quote ([36:00] Laura):
  "This just goes to show that Voldemort's psychology is not totally rooted in wanting to be a wizarding mastermind. He is truly evil, the embodiment."
• Citing "reactive attachment disorder" and the impact of neglect, the hosts debate how much Tom’s evil is genetic vs. environmental—and why he and Harry diverged.

11. Ethics: Dumbledore Sending Tom Back to the Orphanage

• [37:00] The group discusses whether Dumbledore’s decision indirectly shaped Voldemort and the limits of Hogwarts’ role over the summer; was Tom already "beyond saving"?

12. Tom’s "First Crimes"—The Cave Incident and Trophy-Keeping

• Dumbledore suspects Tom’s earliest acts of cruelty were precursors to his future evil—particularly his pride in his secret "trophies."
• Noting the overlap with serial-killer psychology.

13. Young Tom’s Tone: Narcissism, Superiority, and the Parseltongue Revelation

• Tom’s early arrogance and fascination with his magical lineage seem inherited from Marvolo.
• The hosts note the chilling way Tom treats magic as a cure for mortality and his disdain for his "filthy Muggle name."
• Notable Quote ([45:02] Laura):
  "It makes me wonder if narcissism is hereditary because that's really what this reads as here. Like, I knew I was special. I knew that I was better than everyone else."

14. Dumbledore’s Tactics: Proving Magic & The Wardrobe on Fire

• Dumbledore impresses Tom (and asserts dominance) by setting a wardrobe on fire, revealing stolen items—a move both awe-inspiring and intimidating.
• Notable Quote ([53:51] Eric):
  "He could have levitated something for crying out loud. He didn't need to set a wardrobe on fire...he chooses something that's really gonna impress Tom in a sinister way."

15. Financial Aid at Hogwarts

• Dumbledore assures Tom there are funds at Hogwarts to cover books and supplies if needed, confirming (in-universe) that Hogwarts tuition is free.
• Comparison to Weasley family experiences.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• On Dumbledore's Gin Diplomacy:
  [24:37] Andrew: "What it says about Dumbledore as a character that he chooses...the Confundus Charm on her. And then not only does that, but proceeds to get her drunk on gin."

• On Dumbledore’s Knowledge of Draco:
  [12:21] Eric: "If Harry's in danger, he should be told, right?...it's not the best choice, I feel like."

• On Trophies & Foreshadowing:
  [49:20] Andrew: "The collecting trophies piece is interesting, especially with how this story or this...chapter in particular ends."

• On Harry and Tom’s Parallel Upbringings:
  [39:00] Laura: "Even Harry, who grew up under pretty horrible, abusive conditions with the Dursleys, [sees] this place seems like it really sucked to grow up in."

• On Foreshadowing Horcruxes:
  [49:45] Andrew: "Does he have seven trophies? Because that would kind of be like foreshadowing...Only three or four are noted, unfortunately."

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Connecting the Threads (59:03–59:47)

Micah compares this chapter to Chamber of Secrets Chapter 13 ("The Very Secret Diary"):

• Both chapters involve Harry entering a memory about Tom Riddle.
• Younger Voldemort is featured in both.
• Horcruxes play a role in both chapters.
• Hermione and Katie are both recovering from curse-related incidents.
• Dumbledore's "auburn hair" is noted in both chapters.

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MVP & Darkest Young Tom Riddle Trait (57:47–58:56)

The panel picks Tom's darkest characteristics at age 11:

• Andrew: "The stealing of objects as a loner..."
• Eric: "The hanging of the rabbit...clearly an attempt at intimidation."
• Laura: "The collection of trophies...this is like a serial killer thing."

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Patreon “Links Line”: Who Would You Get Drunk/Confund for the Gossip? (59:22–62:20)

Listeners submit creative choices:

• Snape (for honesty); Sirius (for wild stories); Lupin (Order secrets); Helena Ravenclaw (ghostly secrets); Dumbledore (to finally know what he was up to); Pansy Parkinson (for revenge-based gossip); Madame Rosmerta (for public gossip); Bellatrix (to build a case against the Malfoys).

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Other Highlights

• Pensieve as “Quick-Preview” (20:21, 22:13): Comparison to the Mac’s spacebar file preview; time-saving for both characters and author.
• Reactive Attachment Disorder – Real-World Psychology (36:00): Analyzing Tom’s emotional detachment through a clinical lens.
• Hogwarts Financial Aid/Recruitment (51:18): An interesting glimpse into Hogwarts’ accessibility and equity.

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Next Chapter

Next Week: Half-Blood Prince Chapter 14 – "Felix Felicis" Quizzage Question:
What song was first played in space by US astronauts using a harmonica aboard Gemini 6 in 1965? (Submit answers via Mugglecast’s website: mugglecast.com/quizzic)

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Tone & Style

MuggleCast’s tone remains fun, irreverent, but very thoughtful. The hosts take fandom theories and chapter analysis seriously, but never themselves. Banter, running jokes, and recurring segments give the episode a lively, community-focused feel.

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Summary Takeaways

• Dumbledore’s choices with Tom Riddle, Mrs. Cole, and Harry reveal slippery ethics and an ever-present tension between “the greater good” and personal agency.
• This chapter is a turning point in understanding Voldemort’s psychology and the roots of his monstrousness—both nature and nurture are at play.
• The podcast excels at tying deep literary analysis together with humor, listener engagement, and healthy doses of gin (both literal and metaphorical).

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For fans interested in deep rereads, subtle connections, and the eternal question of where wizarding world ethics end and plot begins, this is an essential and enjoyable listen.

Transcript

[A]

Harry meets a younger version of Voldemort in both of these chapters. There are Horcruxes present in both.

[B]

Was there Djinn in this chapter of Chamber of Secrets?

[A]

Oh, I didn't check.

[B]

Yeah, let's go back and check that, please.

[C]

Just in my hand. While I was too early.

[A]

It's year two.

[B]

Welcome to Mugglecast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[C]

I'm Eric.

[A]

I'm Micah.

[D]

And I'm Laura.

[B]

And we are your four Harry Potter friends talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show. So make sure you follow us in your favorite podcast app, and you'll never miss an episode of the show. This week. Pull up a seat and pour yourself a nice glass of gin, just like I have tonight, because we're discussing chapter 13 of Half Blood, the secret riddle. I'm not gonna sip it until we get to the part where this plays a role. So I'm completely sober for the next few minutes.

[C]

So. Did you add ice, Andrew? So it's just gonna dilute between now and when the part of the chapter.

[B]

Comes, which I don't mind. I don't mind. I. Yeah, that helps. That helps with the potency.

[C]

Watered down gin.

[B]

Yeah. I don't want to get too crazy during the podcast.

[A]

We need you for bonus.

[D]

Yeah, we've never done that before.

[B]

I need this gin to cope with Micah's questions during this week's bonus Mugglecast. That's the real reason why I've grab this glass of gin. We'll tease that in a minute. I wanted to share with everybody that the Prisoner of Azkaban full cast audiobook is out now. They've been releasing one of these through Audible every month, so we're up to book three. Notably, David Holmes is voicing Stan in this audiobook, and Ewan Rion is voicing Ram.

[A]

His voice is Ewan.

[B]

I believe I am drinking the gin already. Ewan Rion is voicing Lupin. Now, you might remember this guy from Game of Thrones. He played Ramsay, if you don't.

[D]

Very different character.

[C]

Yes. If you don't remember him from Game of Thrones, you're lucky. He had a very lasting impact in a. In a. Well, the character was sort of traumatic, but I'm sure Sword Lupin is good. I'm looking forward to listening to it.

[B]

He was. Yeah.

[A]

Arguably one of the most sinister characters in the entire Game of Thrones series.

[B]

And now he's playing one of the best characters.

[A]

To have him playing my favorite character in the Harry Potter series, though the videos he did with Alfie Allen, who played the young Greyjoy, were great. So I'm excited to listen to this.

[B]

Book, but listeners might be wondering who David Holmes is and his casting for this book is actually a feel good story for Harry Potter fans. David was Daniel Radcliffe's stunt double for the first six Harry Potter movies movies and during a stunt test for Harry Potter and the Deathly hallows back in 2009. Holmes was partially paralyzed after a harness accident. He later published a memoir and a documentary about his experience. I watched the documentary, it came out a year or two ago and I would highly recommend it for Harry Potter fans. It's called the Boy who Lived and it's on hbo. Max Dan Radcliffe also appears in it, so it's just really wonderful to see that David Holmes was seriously injured on the set of the Harry Potter movies. He couldn't continue after that accident, but now he has another role in this new work, so that just warms my heart.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So check out that audiobook if you are curious and we're going to do a review of the audiobooks at some point in the weeks and months ahead before we get to chapter by chapter. If you love Mugglecast and want to feel as good as Mrs. Cole after just one night with Dumbledore, we invite you to become a member of our [e-mail] mugglecast we have exciting plans for the show this year with new content including new Harry Potter TV show focused episodes that will kick off next month, so we could use your support in making those happen. And by joining our Patreon, you'll instantly receive two bonus mugglecast episodes every month, plus ad free episodes of the show, access to our live streams, and a lot more. Maika what are we doing on bonus mugglecast this week?

[A]

What aren't we doing on bonus Mugglecast this week? We are behaving, taking some Harry Potter hot takes and putting them to the test and seeing whether or not we agree or disagree. And I think as we alluded to towards the tail end of last year, we're adding a little bit more of the adult theme to our bonus Muggle cast. So be warned.

[C]

That's right, we're turning 21. Our little baby podcast is now a.

[B]

Full grown adult and our listeners have aged with us and it's time to have a little more adult fun in our paywalled content. At least check that [e-mail] mugglecasthisweek and if you're looking for other ways to support us, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. You can tell a fellow Muggle about our show. You can also visit mugglecastmerch.com to buy official show gear. Now it's time for chapter by chapter. Half Blood Prince. Chapter Unlucky 13, the Secret Riddle. Maybe lucky for Tom Riddle.

[C]

Yeah, and apparently Dumbledore gets lucky based on what we just said. I don't know. But we last talked about this chapter way back on Mugglecast 401. An episode titled Old Testament Dumbledore that aired on. I love that title. It aired on January 14, 2019. And here's a clip in our Pensieve from that show.

[B]

What you're looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I've collected. It is from Mugglekast episode 401. There's also the mention of the mouth organ. Oh God. We Americans find that disgusting. Just call it a harmonica. It's such a gross. Because I'm thinking like organs, like human organs. I don't know, it's just such a gross description for harmonica.

[C]

I mean, book five is really when the American translators just gave up and stopped coming to work.

[B]

You are so crazy.

[C]

No, it really absolutely is. There's so many instances in book five and book six where little old uninformed, uneducated American me is not sure what the hell is going on in this Harry Potter book and mouth organ. Took me like eight years to figure out that it was a harmonica.

[A]

You could have just googled it.

[B]

This memory is everything mouth organized. Stand by saying that. That's a gross phrase. Well, but I'm glad they kept it Mouth organ. I did not know that that was the harmonica this time around to fact check myself.

[A]

Could you have Googled it in 2005?

[D]

Yeah, sure.

[C]

Well, this was. This was 2019. Yeah, this was 2019.

[A]

Oh, this was 2019. Nevermind.

[B]

But I read it for the first time in 2005. Google existed in 2005.

[C]

Oh, I see. Y. I see, I see.

[B]

Come on, Mike. I know you're very young. I know you were born after 2005, but we could definitely. Google existed after 2005. That's a joke.

[C]

No, I understand what you're saying. I. I stand by what I said there. It's one of those wonky. Would it have been so hard for them to just call it what we know it as moments? Just for the US version? They don't have to do anything special for the UK and the Aussies and the Canada and the New Zealand's, but.

[D]

Yeah, but are we really so special and important that they have to put out a whole separate American translation? Just.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

No, we're not.

[C]

Yes. Yes. They did it for the first four books. Why, why not keep going?

[D]

You know, because they were popular and making enough money at that point. They didn't have to.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. They made.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

Well, let's punt some mouth organs and begin this chapter by chapter discussion. So we last left Harry and he witnessed a pretty horrific scene with Katie Bell. And this chapter opens with Harry in a pretty testy mood. And he carries this all the way into his second lesson with Dumbledore which is where this chapter opens. And I don't get it. Harry's like, he's. He's very, like, on edge, you know, he's like, well, I want to know what happened to Katie and why aren't you not investigating Draco and where have you been? Dumbledore. I likened it, though, as I went through the chapter to his attitude, to Tom's attitude towards Dumbledore when they first meet. And I thought, like, maybe we could talk a little bit about this. Maybe we can draw some parallels between the two because they both come off very demanding of Dumbledore in this chapter.

[D]

It's a great connection.

[C]

Yeah. I wonder if people who are. Who give off the air like Dumbledore does of being responsible if it's a shame that we rely on them to do the responsible thing. Because for Harry, he's at least been burned before by Dumbledore, you know, all of last year comes to mind. And so his sort of impatience with Dumbledore, I feel, is. Is warranted. But Tom, on the other hand, doesn't know this guy. He's come to change his life. It's only a positive thing that Dumbledore is there to do and yet Tom is relying on him for all of the facts and tell the truth, you better. So it is an interesting connection, but.

[B]

I think the through line there is that Harry has felt distant and disconnected from Dumbledore and almost like he doesn't know him, just like Tom doesn't know him. Truly in this flashback scene and to your point, Eric, Tom and Harry both feel like they have a lifeline in Dumbledore because he. They both want to know what Dumbledore has to say. They just haven't heard much up until now.

[C]

You know, he's playing his cards.

[B]

Yeah. So different circumstances, but I definitely see some overlap there because of how Dumbledore has treated Harry so far.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, ultimately, he's withholding the answers that both of them are desperately looking for. I think that explains it. But I think in Harry's case, it's a little more justified just given the fact that, you know, less than six months ago, canonically, Dumbledore was like, hey, I'm going to tell you everything. Except he does. Well, doesn't do that.

[C]

And the pretense for these lessons is I'm going to tell you everything. Additionally, everything that you. That you do need to know about how to defeat Voldemort. So the onus is kind of on Dumbledore to be more forthcoming, at least with Harry. With Tom, I would say he's too young, sure. To know everything about the wizarding world. Like, he'll have years and years to acquaint himself with the world. Yeah. But for Harry, I think Harry's right to be upset.

[A]

Even Phineas Nigellus Black picks up on it. Right. And he has this running commentary throughout Harry and Dumbledore's initial conversation and basically is shouting little things like, such insolence. And, you know, the fact that if this ever happened in my day, that's the kind of impression that I got that Phineas would definitely have not allowed Harry to speak to him the way that he speaks Dumbledore.

[C]

You know, I wonder if even Dumbledore lets other people speak to him the way that Harry is right now. I think maybe precious few people could kind of approach Dumbledore like this, like, be like, hey, where you've been and stuff to Dumbledore.

[A]

It is unfortunate a bit, though, because it feels like some of the things that Harry brings up to Dumbledore are. Are more just. They're not as important as what they are ultimately there to do that evening. And I'm thinking specifically about Katie Bell. I'm thinking about Draco. Because when Harry does start to press Dumbledore about Draco, I wanted to ask are to assume that he already knows the truth, that. That he's aware that it was in fact Draco who attacked Katie. And if so, I think there's a huge moral dilemma here. Right. Are we just going to give Draco a free pass for almost killing a fellow student?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I do get the impression that Dumbledore already knows what Draco was up to. I can also see why he might feel like it's not time to tell Harry yet. I know we often criticize him for waiting too long to share information, but is this the right time to Tell Harry that Draco is trying to kill him. Dumbledore. I mean, Harry's mind would explode if that were the case. So this is just not information he needs to hear right now. Maybe he can tiptoe around it differently. I don't know any other way to present this that would have prevented Harry from panicking.

[D]

It would come with him having to tell Harry like, I'm going to die. I already know I'm going to die. So because I'm going to die, I'm allowing Draco Malfoy to commit all of these vile acts all year to position him to kill me at the end. Right. Harry is not subtle and I just don't see him letting that plan right out. So I really think Dumbledore is just letting this happen. For the plot.

[C]

I think too like. But if Harry's in danger, he should be told, right? And so we see how throughout this year, Draco's reckless abandon when it comes to poisoned or cursed artifacts keeps getting people near Harry, including even Ron, if I'm not mistaken. Pretty just pretty messed up. And so I think that it really comes down to Dumbledore is, is making a choice here. And it's not the best choice, I feel like. For what. What Dumbledore tells Harry in this chapter is he will investigate all parties involved with the. With the. The whole incident with Katie. Now if that's true, it doesn't just involve tracking down Draco and sending him to Azkaban in the middle of the school year, which would ruin all of the larger plans. It involves freeing Madame Rosemerta from the Imper Curse, which I believe she remains under throughout the rest of this year. So that's a situation where if Dumbledore had even taken a cursory look into how it was that the necklace came to be in the position or in the possession of of Katie, they'd be able to free her even sooner. But hey, if you free Madame Rosemary, does she start talking? Is that then a problem for Dumbledore?

[B]

Dumbledore also describes Harry's allegations as suspicions, which I think is a little belittling of the situation. Suspicions? Doesn't you know what he is saying is true and Dumbledore probably knows that. And it's almost like he's shrugging them off. I just wish he approached the situation differently with Harry. Maybe tried to figure out a way to give him a little more credit than he is. And then he quickly pivots to what concerns me now, Harry is our lesson. So move on.

[A]

Well, that's. He's keeping the, the, what's the, the phrase? Like, he's keeping the main thing. The main thing, like, and if, if you look. Yeah, what's happened to Katie Bell is, is a problem, but is it as big of a problem of Voldemort coming back and, and having all these Horcruxes? Like, Sorry, Katie. You know, he brings up the whole situation with Mudungus and the fact that he's taking care of that. So, you know, he's got a lot of different things on his plate. But the most important thing is this memory, as you said, Andrew.

[B]

And.

[C]

No, I wonder if there isn't like, the reason why there isn't more time for Dumbledore to get into these other things is because Dumbledore has not made the time to tell Harry everything he should know limited to a single two hour session every couple of weeks. You know, especially when something this big like with Katie Bell goes down, I think is malfeasance at, at best as far as what could be communicated to. Right.

[B]

It's sort of like we only have a monthly planning meeting for this podcast, so we don't really have much time to dilly dally. It's like, let's just try to cram as much information in as possible and not shoot the shit. Like, seriously, Harry. Harry and Dumbledore really have no time to just talk because Dumbledore's been out of the picture and they have limited time to get, get the job done, you know?

[C]

Yeah. So I feel like it's a convenient excuse to be like, oh, what really bothers me is this memory. We gotta look at this. It's so important. It's like it's, it's, it's manipulative, I.

[A]

Think, but it's like when you come back from a long trip and the mail's piled up, that's basically what Dumbledore's dealing with right here. And maybe he hasn't had the time to adequately deal with all these situations, like, presumably with the way he talks about Mundungus, he's gotten this information from Aberforth, which I think is a little bit, you know, happening below the surface. Like you have to read between the lines a little bit there. But yeah, he's just gotten back to the school and he's got to attend to all these things. And again, the memory is the most important thing to share with Harry tonight.

[C]

Micah, I love that you just mentioned the mail because we happened to get something to our Muggle mailbox earlier today. Also, regarding Dumbledore. And Mendungus. This is from Rachel. Who would like to read this mail we got?

[B]

I'll read it. It says, hey, y'.

[A]

All.

[B]

Just wanted to add on to the chapter by chapter conversation. In chapter 12 of Half Blood Prince, we know that Sirius gave Harry the mirror that would allow them to communicate in book five. In book seven, Aberforth has it, and that's how he saves Harry and crew, by sending Dobby, I think when Mundungus and Aberforth are seen in the Hogshead, this is when Dung sells Aberforth to Sirius's side of the mirror. It looks like he wrapped something in his cloak when he walked away, making me think he actually bought something. This might even be when Aberforth starts to check in on Harry, possibly on Dumbledore's orders. Crackpot theory. Did Dumbledore tell Dung to give sell the mirror to Aberforth for him to look after Harry after he died? And Dung went crazy with selling things. Anyway, I just wanted to add this perspective. Love the podcast. Thank you, Rachel.

[C]

What I love about this theory is it makes it even murkier for Harry to have witnessed Dung selling Sirius's things. Because if it turns out that Albus gave Mundungus permission to get the mirror from Grimald Place, then Dumbledore is directly responsible for the fact that Dung went crazy and Grimald Place grabbed a bunch of other stuff and that he's now selling. So when he tells Harry, oh, rest assured, nothing else, Dung will not be selling any more of Sirius's prized possessions, he conveniently leaves out the fact, if this is true, that Dumbledore is the reason Vendungus was even there.

[D]

Yeah, it is interesting, especially since Dumbledore does not seem surprised at all that Dung was selling all of Sirius's things.

[B]

Yeah, that was disappointing to see from Dumbledore, too, that he was just like, yeah, yeah, it's been happening. Dumbledore does acknowledge that Dung is afraid of him, so that's nice to hear. But yeah, it's. He's sort of just like passive about.

[C]

Does kind of speak to me like there's some, like, unacknowledged responsibility there on the part of Dumbledore. But maybe that's a conspiracy theory.

[A]

Always love a good crackpot theory. Yeah, but let's get a little taste of the Pensieve first before we jump in in full and we get a vision of Mr. Burke of Borgen and Burke fame. And this is a little bit of a different kind of magic than what we're used to. Right. We're not seeing Harry immerse himself into the pensieve and kind of be in the memory. He's witnessing it just like, you know, anything else in Dumbledore's office. And the memory plays itself out on the surface of the pensive. So I'm curious why. It's.

[B]

It's like a preview. It's like a quick look. Do you know when you select a file on your Mac and you hit spacebar, it brings up a preview a.

[C]

Little like, oh my God, you know.

[B]

Without all the details.

[C]

I need to try that.

[B]

I don't think I've ever done that. Yeah, it's great. I use it all the time.

[D]

It's really nice.

[B]

Yeah, that's kind of the impression I'm getting, like in setting of being thrust into the memory. You know, maybe it takes more magical power. Maybe it's a little physically burdensome. A nice little quick look. I think that's really cool.

[A]

It's like the preview before the movie.

[C]

Well, yeah. Like coming soon to theaters. Well, I just think that what it seems most like is the sequels to Fantastic Beasts had like basically a security camera type thing in a cauldron or like they were able to cast a spell and see what was going on in different parts of the world at that time. It got all a little muddy. But that's the closest thing to this book event that I can compare it to. But as with anything that Dumbledore shows to Harry, I ask the question, what's not being shown? Because we only see or hear this charactacus Burke giving his testimony. It actually leaves out a lot of probably important or suspect detail, which is, who's he testimonying to? Is this fully of his own volition that he's giving? Because this is a pretty like, proud bragging account of how he ripped off Voldemort's mom. So I'm kind of curious because again, if we knew this detail, like, if it was in fact Dumbledore who was directly being told about this why wouldn't Dumbledore want to take Harry into his pristine. Much better than the average man's memory. Doesn't he brag about himself?

[B]

There's not much to add. That's kind of what I'm thinking. He just wants to give Harry a little taste to help set up some additional context and need to do more than that.

[C]

Again, you know, chop, chop.

[D]

We're in a.

[C]

We're in a hurry here for a mission, for a meeting that I set. It expires in two hours and we only have a limited amount of time and we can't be flexible. Sorry, Harry.

[B]

By the end of this chapter, Dumbledore says something about how like the night has gotten away from us or something like that. Going into these memories takes a lot of time.

[C]

Cast a spell, freeze time. You're Dumbledore.

[D]

Isn't this the same way that we get to hear the full prophecy in order of the Phoenix? Don't we see a projection of Trelawny on top of the surface of the Pensieve giving the full prophecy? So we've seen it before. I agree. I think it's just a time saver. Both for the characters, but also for the writer so that she doesn't have to write a whole scene of them diving into a memory just for that explanation.

[C]

Right.

[A]

What's the appetizer? Right. It's wetting the whistle a little bit here for what's to come when we do go with Dumbledore to the orphanage and and meet a young Tom Riddle. And we are going to get drunk with Dumbledore in just a minute, but we do need to take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right, Andrew, are you ready?

[B]

Yes. What's the name of this part of the discussion? Micah.

[A]

We are getting drunk with Dumbledore.

[B]

Oh, woohoo.

[D]

Sounds like a party.

[B]

My ice has completely melted into the gin, so I'm ready to drink this watered down gin.

[C]

Go ahead.

[A]

All right. Well, we enter the memory of Dumbledore this time and we are. We find ourselves at the orphanage where Tom Riddle grew up. Where Merope Gaunt dropped. Drop. This sounds terrible.

[B]

Burst one time.

[A]

That sounds even worse. Never mind. We're just gonn scrap that all together. I want to talk a little bit about Dumbledore's interaction with Mrs. Cole, who is really the caretaker at the orphanage and more so his tactics. What it says about Dumbledore as a character that he chooses what more or less. I mean, it's not outwardly stated, but many believe to be the confundist charm on her. And then not only does that, but proceeds to get her drunk on gin.

[C]

Her.

[A]

Her drink of choice, presumably mine too. Andrew Cole.

[C]

Mm.

[B]

I'm drinking Empress 1908 Indigo Gin. And it's purple though now it's blue because the ice diluted it. Not bad. Thank you, Costco. It's okay. Little stronger than I was expecting.

[C]

So Andrew, tell us about this Tom Riddle you have in your orphanage.

[B]

So I. I did find it interesting Dumbledore is taking this approach with Mrs. Cole giving her gin? Confounding her. Why? I'm wondering if perhaps he had done some research on her and just found her to be a bit of a stubborn person. And the only hint we have here is that he privately describes her to himself as an inconveniently sharp woman. So maybe he needs to muddle her mind. So he's. So you should. So she's less sharp. Maybe if she wasn't as sharp, she'd be less willing to send Tom off to a different school.

[A]

Yeah, it's certainly possible. I also think Dumbledore is not above reading her mind or penetrating her mind and finding out that her favorite drink is gin. And what I'd love to compare this to, though, is, is this any different than Tom using his powers on the other kids in the orphanage? It's all a power play, right?

[C]

If you think about it, a disadvantage.

[A]

It has exactly. They're all at a disadvantage. Mrs. Cole is completely vulnerable here in this moment because not only is. I mean, she's basically the magical version of drunk, and then she's the Muggle version of drunk. Yeah, that must be all at the same time.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Well, I mean, the end motivations for the two characters are quite different. You know, Dumbledore is trying to save Tom Riddle, which is an overall altruistic thing he's trying to do. Right. But I think for Mrs. Cole's perspective, you know, she's running an orphanage. And what year Ish is it supposed to be if the Chamber of secrets is the 40s? Yeah. Somewhere in the 40s. And you have a bunch of children who are living there, you know, their wards of. Of this orphanage of the state, what have you. And there are no adults who show interest in them. And then one day this dude in a purple suit shows up, being like, I want to take this kid to my school.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I think it's very reasonable and actually, like, shows that she's doing her job to be as suspicious as she is. So, yeah, Dumbledore doesn't really have much.

[B]

Of a choice here, 100%. And despite the Confundance charm and despite the Djinn, she does note that nobody really wants Tom there anyway. So she's probably glad to see the backside of him, as I think she says, even though he does have to keep coming back.

[A]

Do you think she might have put up a little bit more of a guard or more resistance if she wasn't drunk or under the Confunders trauma?

[D]

I think that's it.

[B]

That was the whole point. Yeah.

[C]

The only Thing Dumbledore is preventing is harder questions being asked every time she seems to gain some semblance of, like, curiosity. And like, wait, what school did you say you were again? Like, then, oops, there's Jyn. Or Oops, there's a confounding Charman. And you know, Dumbledore sent a letter. He did the thing properly. He arranged an appointment by mail. But that was kind of just to get him in the door. The thing is, and it is a bit like, it's, it's very for the greater good here because think about, he's allowing a wizard kid to go to wizard school and learn how to control the magic that he, Tom, is already abusing at a young age. So it's probably a good thing, a net positive that Tom went to Hogwarts at all, given where he would have ended up anyway. And so, you know, it's, it's very for the greater good, but if we really think about it, the Statute of Secrecy mandates that Dumbledore really not give any info to Mrs. Cole, any real actionable truths about where it is Tom is going, why it is Dumbledore wants to take Tom there. Dumbledore's hands are tied. He couldn't speak to her if he wanted to. And so all that's left to do is confuse her and leave her kind of feeling a little. Just forgetful about the whole situation and.

[B]

Less inclined to ask questions.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So he's, he's trying to make a good impression. And there, and here's where I think we see the, the overall superiority complex that wizards have. You know, I think that to Laura's point, like, what Dumbledore is doing here is pretty altruistic overall. But the means in which he uses to sort of get this outcome is they are manipulative and they remove the agency from this woman who actually is good at her job.

[A]

I also find it quite interesting that Hogwarts makes house calls like this. Dumbledore at the time is not headmaster, but still, the fact that he's going out to this orphanage and trying to recruit Tom to Hogwarts is not all that dissimilar from what Hagrid does in Sorcerer's Stone. But again, that's a house call.

[C]

Is there anything, deputies? Yeah, sorry, no, nothing wrong.

[A]

But I guess for those who don't have parents maybe who are orphans.

[B]

Yeah. I wonder if there's like a chapter that Harry or Dumbledore says that his name's been down since he was born so somebody has to go and get him why is it Dumbledore exactly? For the plot? Who knows otherwise? But yeah, I. Somebody has to go get them.

[C]

Well, it's a good call out that Dumbledore at this time is not Headmaster. It's dip it for another several years. So maybe Dumbledore is part of like an advanced team that goes out to these either muggle born kids or kids who ordinarily wouldn't find out and is able to give the necessary context to whoever their provider, their caregivers are, you know, or in this case, hoodwink them. Still, it's very like Professor X and Magneto going to like Jean Grey's parents and being like, hey, we have a school. Because it is Dumbledore's school that he's recruiting for essentially. So that's interesting.

[A]

Dumbledore does learn quite a bit from Mrs. Cole about Tom Riddle. And the first bit of information is that his mother requested that he be named Tom Riddle after his father, but take Marvolo as his middle name. So knowing how abusive Marvolo was to Merope, why in the world did she make the decision to include Marvolo in his name?

[B]

It's also noted that she died an hour after giving birth to him. And maybe she knew she was going to be dying giving birth to him. So I'm kind of wondering if she was feeling sentimental in some way about naming him what she did.

[C]

I think also when you're somebody who's as abused as Merope is, I feel like you can't really, you don't know it, you can't see it. You can't really see that. So I think she really loved her father. She really loved Marvolo, despite his constant, you know, attacks, physical, emotional, et cetera, et cetera. And she was raised in a very patriarchal like household that really, really values male heirs. And so honoring her dad in this way was just what you do or what she was taught to do. Even though, you know, a more feminist reading of this would be like, name him something else that, that you love. Name it. Pick another name. Pick any other name than your father's.

[A]

I think that's right.

[D]

Mm, I agree.

[A]

Keeping an element of her family too. Because if you look at his name, Tom Riddle is, you know, he's being named after his father and there's no connection to the Gaunt family. There's no connection to the Slytherin bloodline, the pureblood family line. And so maybe deep down this was her way of doing that.

[D]

Yeah, well, it's also clear that this was another way of her trying to distance herself from either the Gaunt family or just her magical roots. Dumbledore mentions a little later on in the chapter that his suspicion is that she just stopped practicing magic after Tom Riddle left her. And so this was her way of giving her son a chance to be normal. Also hoping that her son was gonna look more like his father, which he does. But I think it is really interesting to see the contrast of what she wanted with what young Tom Riddle wants, which is he's more fascinated by the magical DNA that he carries. And it's just really interesting to see how they basically want opposite things here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

By the way. No Maj. No problem is pointing out. In our Discord, Snape mentions that Muggle Borns get a teacher that come by to explain everything. So getting back to the discussion from a few minutes ago about how do the students typically get to Hogwarts if they don't know they're a wizard? There's the answer. Thank you.

[A]

No Maj. One other bit of information that Dumbledore learns about Tom is that he never cried as a baby and that he scares the other children. Now, there is some dark symbolism that is associated with babies not crying. It's often linked to ominous things like foretelling, silent suffering, spiritual emptiness, demonic possession, or a lack of vital breath or life force. And this could not connect more with Voldemort.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So maybe not what Tom is currently, but what he is meant to become. Foreshadow alert.

[D]

Who put this note in here about reactive attachment Disorder?

[C]

I did, and I couldn't remember. I. I remember talking about it on a podcast, but I couldn't find it. In a search of like what episode this might have been and what even what podcast it was might have been. Aloha Mora. But I can't find it. So there's a disorder that is characterized by some of these similar things which we can get into, but it's children who've been abused or neglected especially, and, and even children with loving parents, you know, if they have to be absent in a moment when the child needs them or something can manifest in this way. It's. It's kind of a heck of a thing. But in terms of pathologizing Tom Riddle and trying to come up with like a real world kind of reasoning or diagnosis that might explain the young Tom Riddle that we see here, it doesn't get any closer that I know of than R A D. And I actually.

[D]

Really love that connection because ultimately it gives a very reasonable explanation for the Muggle world for why he is the way he is, even if we're accepting. Well, the real reality is that he was conceived under the influence of a love potion. So that impacts his ability to, like, healthily attach to other people. But I love the different possible interpretations here because Mrs. Cole presumably would have language that she could use to explain why Tom Riddle is the way he is in a way that, like, common Muggle people would understand.

[B]

Yeah, this also reads to me like an inability just to express feelings and emotions. Like, he is just. He lacks that completely. He doesn't feel anything. And then you also take into consideration he tortures and kills animals. We learned that in this chapter, too. Like, this guy has no heart.

[A]

Yeah, let's pull on the thread a little bit about his display of cruelty and his lack of remorse, because at the end of the day, he is a neglected child being raised in an institution. And I'm wondering, how do we separate what we may consider to be his inherent traits from the environmental damage that he suffered growing up here? And I wanted to also extend that a little bit to compare this to Harry's upbringing with the Dursleys. And then why does we know why Dumbledore forces Harry to return to Privet Drive every summer? But why does Dumbledore choose to send Tom back to the orphanage? And could he then very well be responsible for the creation of Lord Voldemort?

[B]

Ooh.

[D]

That'S a big question.

[B]

Well, he.

[C]

He.

[A]

I'm not saying he knew in that moment. He even says in this chapter that he didn't know that it was gonna be. He was gonna become the greatest dark wizard the world had ever known. But as the years went on, I'm sure he had suspicions that this kid was not playing with a full deck.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. You know what I love? And, Micah, you bringing up the comparison between Harry's upbringing and Tom's upbringing made me remember this moment from the chapter where Harry and Dumbledore are walking through the hallways of this orphanage to get to Tom Riddle's room. And even Harry, who grew up under pretty horrible, abusive conditions with the Dursleys, was like, yeah, this place seems like it really sucked to grow up in, like. He has that realization in the moment of, like, this seems rough for a kid to come up in. So the fact that Harry, someone who was so horribly abused for mo. For all of his childhood, is able to look at this and I think have a level of recognition that this is maybe a little worse.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Says something about the experiences that they had. But it also comes down to choice, right? As Dumbledore always likes to remind.

[C]

Yeah in terms of what little Tom Riddle gets from his sort of family versus the environment. I think a completely overstated sense of self importance that 100% is Marvolo going we're one of the Peverils of the. You know like we're Salazar Slytherin's direct that 100% is on display here in this, in this chapter even that that little Tom has such a high opinion of himself and also sees that he's the only one that matters and, and to, to his little world he is the only one that matters. But there's no sense of connection again being like an attachment disorder there's no sense of connection to others. And I think that something Dumbledore said in a previous chapter about the Gaunts how something about it begins with like decades of inbreeding or something but it's like they literally are like so removed from others and from society that some of these traits that are we would consider antisocial are kind of almost baked in to their genetics.

[B]

In terms of where to send Tom Riddle, where else would he go? And I think I want to remind everybody that like yes, while Hogwarts is open during winter break if you have nowhere to go. They don't keep the school open during summer if you have nowhere to go. Right. So that would leave us with where would Tom Riddle go? And maybe the orphanage just seems like the safest place for for Dumbledore to send them. I also wonder if by sending him back in his in Dumbledore's mind it helps keep Tom humble. Like oh I definitely prefer Hogwarts than coming back here. So I should appreciate what I have and I won't cause trouble in Hogwarts like I was warned because otherwise I'm gonna get kicked out.

[A]

It's just tough because. And I'm not saying if you were to stay at Hogwarts, if that were even an opportunity that he would have been more social. But I think when you send Tom back to the orphanage you're ensuring at least several weeks or a couple of months of continued isolation and non interaction with other young people. And if he does choose to interact with them, we see what happens. Right. Look no further than Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop and what happened in the cave. Which we're not all still entirely sure what happened, but something happened and it wasn't good.

[C]

Something that Voldemort is later proud of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Eric, what did you think went down in the cave? If you had to guess?

[C]

I'm curious. I Think in this chapter, Dumbledore says something like, it's these moments and these trophies are from when Tom either debuted a particularly bad kind of magic or started to gain control over those sorts of things. And so whatever it was, it was horrible and it was the first time he had done it. So now I don't know what these two unfortunate kids did to gain little Tom's ire, but unfortunately I may not have done anything.

[A]

It might have just been convenience.

[B]

Yeah, probably.

[C]

Oh, and I wasn't saying it was their fault. Yeah, I just think it's a real shame because I'm sure that they will carry that trauma. And here's the thing, trauma works both ways. And so I hope that these kids were able to eventually, well, either repress or forget what happened to them in that cave. Voldemort sure didn't.

[D]

Yeah, the body never forgets stuff like that, though. And I think if we're talking about the question of like, why did he choose those kids? I think they were probably not that it's their fault, but they were probably just easy targets for bullying. Like you would see, you know, run of the mill bullies look for, you know, people who are shy, sensitive, easily manipulated. I mean, that I think would be like a red hot target for Tom.

[C]

Yeah. And to the point of the orphanage, like, why does Dumbledore keep sending Tom back here? The same line that Harry, this was a grim place in which to grow up. Or Harry thinks that it does start with, he says they look reasonably well cared for. The kids here, you know, ultimately aren't starving but at the same time, this is a grim place in which to grow up. Like, again, the orphanage, like the orphanage is not where you're supposed to stay.

[B]

It's.

[C]

You're supposed to have a family that can take you in and give you more of that, that individual love and care. Because at the end of the day there's all sorts of kids here and Tom, if he were to ever turn out good, might have needed more of an individual approach. And it may be too late for Hogwarts to save him. Like, it may be too late for Tom already, I think.

[A]

Well, we are going to meet the man of the hour, Tom, in just a minute. We'll be right back after this break. All right, so it is time for Dumbledore and Harry to meet Tom Riddle Jr. And as we were kind of talking about a little bit earlier at the top of the show, Tom's tone throughout this whole conversation with Dumbledore is forceful and I think you could probably even say it's frightening for an 11 year old. He's very quick, you know, to even accept the truth about himself, you know, in terms of why he's different from all the other kids at the orphanage. And I just wanted to talk a little bit about that, you know, and I think Dumbledore plays it well. Like he doesn't necessarily get put back on his heels when Tom, you know, responds the way that he does, but it has to be concerning for him.

[D]

Yeah, it makes me wonder if narcissism is hereditary because that's really what this reads as here. Like, I knew I was special. I knew that I was better than everyone else. And Eric, you called this out a few minutes ago in saying, like that bravado and that self centeredness is Marvolo talking. So it really does make you wonder like how much of this is a nature versus nurture thing. And I think we can definitely argue that we see a lot more of that behavior in Tom's breeding. Right. Like who in the orphanage would have conditioned him to behave that way? I don't think anyone.

[B]

And this is an attitude that Tom slash Voldemort carries for the rest of his life. I'm a superior person. I'm right. I have the best ideas. Nobody's gonna get in my way.

[C]

Right. And in order to prove that he's superior, he has to like go further than anyone else at defying death and do all these other things. So like he gets this sort of sick ambition where no matter the cost, no matter how many people he has to kill, he's going to achieve something truly great.

[A]

Yeah, I like what you said, Andrew, because really in this whole conversation that we see, we get the picture for how Voldemort is who he is in present day. Yeah, this disdain that he has for the name Tom because basically it's a filthy Muggle name. And that's why he inevitably chose to be Lord Voldemort.

[B]

Well, even when talking about his parents magical abilities, he's so quick to assume his mother must not have been magical, otherwise she would not have died. This is interesting to hear from a wizard who later attempts to live forever. Right, so to your point, we're learning so much about the Voldemort we will one day see in this flashback scene.

[C]

He also treats magic as if it's a solution to all the problems. Right. So some people are too far along for magic to cure them, or so we're told. But you know, in this case it does 100% foreshadow Tom's own fear of his mortality. And he just says, if there's magic, then why would anyone die?

[A]

But it's certainly possible that what happened to his mother informed his decision to want immortality.

[C]

But I think it's just his absence of parents, his being an orphan. Right. So if both of his parents are in fact dead, which he finds out that they're not, eventually he goes and kills his dad and his grandparents, but the. And his uncle too, now that I'm thinking of it.

[B]

So it's like he's wondering, how can I avoid the mistakes of my parents past by living forever?

[C]

I think, you know, if you grew up in an orphanage or something, you'd probably be like, have some pretty strong opinions about not wanting another kid to face that sort of experience.

[B]

Yeah, this is dark, and maybe I'll cut this, but I think about when you lose one of your parents and then you end up living longer than they do. I have not had that experience yet, but I think that would give me a lot of pause once I reached an age older than my parents live to. It's like, well, why am I living longer than them when they died at a certain age? And what can I do to make sure I live a longer life? Is that too dark?

[D]

No, I don't think that's dark. I think that's probably a really.

[C]

As dark as your gin, Andrew.

[D]

I think that's probably a really natural thought that most people have when they cross that bridge in life with having to deal with the passing of a parent. But there's like, innocence and goodness in that thought about, like, what can I do to take care of my body and make sure that I can live as long of a life as I can? And meanwhile, Voldemort's like, I'm special, so.

[B]

I should just live forever.

[A]

The last two items just wanted to call attention to for Tom Riddle is that he can speak to snakes and he enjoys operating alone, which we already talked about, and collecting mouth organs. Oh, sorry. Collecting trophies. One of which happens to be a mouth organization.

[C]

Ooh, gross.

[A]

But no surprise that he could speak to snakes. I don't think, though, the collecting trophies piece is interesting, especially with how this story or this. This chapter in particular ends.

[B]

Yeah, you know, when I was rereading the chapter, I was like, does. Does he have seven trophies? Because that would kind of be like foreshadowing what is to come with the Horcruxes. Only three or four are noted, unfortunately.

[A]

They do it in the movie, though. Like, they. They show a shot I Think of his windowsill and there are seven on it.

[B]

That's great. I'm glad you bring up the movie, too because I thought this was an excellent scene in the movie. And they use some of these scenes in the trailer as well. I remember the Tom Riddle line. I could speak to snakes, too. And, like, Dumbledore pauses as he's walking away. That was really well done. Yeah.

[C]

I'm surprised that Dumbledore didn't. I mean, hindsight being 20 20, but some of these things are real red flags, especially the Parselmouth thing. But Dumbledore just calls it unusual.

[B]

Yeah, he didn't really see too many warnings in all this at the time, it seems like. So Tom does get his Hogwarts letter and Dumbledore says, you can go and pick up your wand and whatnot in Diagon Alley. And Harry thinks to himself, oh, Dumbledore's definitely going to accompany Tom to Diagon Alley. I mean, this guy's a bit out there, but Dumbledore is actually okay with letting Tom go on his own. I'm just shocked that Dumbledore would let this guy go to Diagon Alley by himself. Especially when you think about how Hagrid accompanied Harry to Diagon Alley. And then I'm also wondering if maybe Dumbledore had somebody tailing Tom Riddle in Diagon Alley.

[D]

I think so.

[B]

See what he. Yeah. See if he'd steal anything, maybe.

[A]

I was wondering, with you alluding to Hagrid and Harry did Dumbledore learn his lesson with Tom Riddle and so that's why you're at Hagrid?

[C]

That's much more charitable than what I was thinking. I was thinking, clearly, Dumbledore doesn't think Harry could find his potions books and spell books and all the important stuff without Hagrid's help.

[B]

So, yeah, Tom's a loner. He's not going to bring anybody else with him to Diagon Alley. He wants to go by himself. And Dumbledore's just like, okay, go ahead.

[C]

No, it's shocking. It's got to be tailed because what does it mean that. That Harry. Harry's read on Dumbledore is that Dumbledore is going to refuse and make sure that he goes with him. And when Dumbledore is like, no, it shocks Harry and, and, and I. I mean to suggest that it's not that Harry's assessment is wrong, it's that something else is going on here. So, yeah, like this. This. The first time this happens in this chapter is when Dumbledore lets Tom go on his own. And one could say maybe he's trusting Tom's autonomy. He's like, clearly you're living in an orphanage. You're self sufficient. I can trust you. Fine. The second time that Dumbledore does something that Harry is unexpecting is when Tom asked Dumbledore to prove that he has magic. And Harry's like, I don't blame him for that. No, listen, Dumbledore is going to be like. Harry thinks Dumbledore is going to be like, no, I am the adult, I don't need to show it. Instead, Dumbledore sets the friggin wardrobe on fire. And the interesting thing about this wardrobe's on fire. Sorry, this wardrobe's on fire. The interesting thing to me is that fire is sort of, I think hellfire really. I think evil, I think dark. I think Dumbledore has enough of a read on Tom even in this one encounter that he chooses to do something. I mean he could have levitated something for crying. He didn't need to set a wardrobe on fire. He chooses something. He chooses something that's really gonna impress Tom in a sinister way. Like it's not value neutral, it's sinister. And so I think, I think Dumbledore in this key moment has clued in to some key internal part of Tom, his evilness and is basically enticing him. And the only thing I can think of that discredits this argument is that the wardrobe on fire immediately evolves into an admonishment of Tom's thievery. Dumbledore uses the moment then to cause the items to shake and basically scare the bejesus out of little Tom.

[B]

I think the fire also shows Tom who's boss Dumbledore can send a very strong message with that type of visual. I also want to mention Gabby SM is asking how did Tom Riddle pay for things at the time? And Dumbledore says there is a fund at Hogwarts to allow you to buy your spell books and wand and robe if you need funds. But I also just want to add that this is also confirmation that tuition at Hogwarts is free. I remember a few years ago the author tweeted tuition at Hogwarts is free. And it was like big news at the time. We should have read this line in this chapter and realized that tuition was free as well because he, he doesn't make any mention of needing funds to pay to go to school period.

[C]

Maybe the funds went away. We don't see the Weasleys use them. Well the Weasleys are Made to use their own money to get all of Lockhart's books. Six sets.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

Just with the wardrobe, though, too, being set on fire. I looked at it, too, as a purification of sorts. Right. It's. It's not just the revelation of the stolen items that are in there. It's. It's more of a purification of, hey, I'm revealing who you actually are, Tom. I do like the whole thought about Dumbledore showing who's boss. I think that's part of it, too. But that's just something that came to mind.

[D]

Yeah. There's a lot of, like, myth and legend and even certain religions that view fire as a cleansing element. And in this case, it's like, you're a thief, Tom. You're a wild wizard, but you're also a thief.

[C]

You're a thief. Do we think that he was trying to impress Tom at all, though, with the fire?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

No.

[A]

Because I do think that he had to do something that was going to catch his attention. And I don't blame Tom for asking. Right. This, like, really old guy shows up and says, crazy suit, I want you to come with me to my magical school because you're a wizard. I mean, I would expect Tom. No less of Tom than to request evidence of Dumbledore. So. But that is how the. The chapter really wraps up, you know, with Harry leaving Dumbledore's office after the second lesson. And I think we're meant to start to catch on on the trophy side of things, the collection of trophies. And Harry makes a passing comment about expecting to see a mouth organ on the table. Right. And I think that's an allusion to the Ring and the Horcruxes. And so that's where we leave it.

[B]

But you have an excellent connecting the threads for us, Micah.

[A]

Yeah. So a few odds and ends here. I actually pulled these all from episode 401. I thought they were so good that they needed to be repeated. And this goes back to chapter 13. So the same chapter number of Chamber of Secrets, which is called the Very Secret Diary. Both chapters have Harry entering a memory about Tom Riddle. Harry meets a younger version of Voldemort. In both of these chapters, there are Horcruxes present in both. Hermione is recovering from being a cat in Chamber of Secrets, while Katie is recovering from the necklace. And Dumbledore is noted to have auburn hair in both chapters.

[B]

Love it. And this is why we love these books. Was there Djinn in this chapter of Chamber of Secrets?

[A]

Oh, I didn't Check.

[B]

Yeah, let's go back and check that, please.

[C]

Just in my hand. While I was too early.

[A]

It's year two. Well, now it is time for mvp. And I wanted to know what's the scariest dark wizard characteristic that Tom Riddle demonstrates at such a young age.

[B]

So there's two leading options here from the panel. I'm gonna go with the stealing of objects as a loner. The loner that Tom Riddle is. This just feels especially eerie.

[C]

Yeah, I'm gonna go with the. Unfortunately, the hanging of the rabbit just the way that even not only the act was bad enough. It's clearly an attempt at intimidation. And that thing was tortured. The display of it is almost as worse as the act.

[A]

I agree with you, Eric, as somebody who owned a rabbit as a child named Gree.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Must have been traumatizing to read. Read this. I'm gonna have to agree with Andrew on the collection of trophies. This is not explicitly a dark wizard characteristic. This is like a serial killer thing. The collection of trophies is all about having a connection back to your victims and being able to connect the item with what you did to those people. So this just goes to show that Voldemort's psychology is not totally rooted in wanting to be a. A wizarding mastermind. He is truly evil, the embodiment. So trophies.

[B]

However, Laura and I would like to acknowledge that we do not condone killing bunnies. Thank you.

[A]

Thanks, Andrew. Over on our links line where we asked our Slug club [e-mail] Mugglecast which Wizarding World character would you most like to confund and get drunk so that they spill all the tea? And please include your alcoholic drink of choice.

[B]

Chance said I'd confund Severus Snape without hesitation. He's the one character whose secrets could completely reframe the story. I'd want to know how much of what he did was driven by love, how much by guilt, how much by pure obligation. And whether protecting Harry ever became a choice instead of a punishment. Drink of choice. A slow glass of fire whiskey neat. Snape wouldn't overshare or get sloppy. He'd get quiet shop and painfully honest. The kind of drunk who drops one line of truth that changes everything. That's the tea I'd once spilled.

[C]

My goodness, it's gonna be hard to top that. 40 says serious to get all the marauders stories and secrets. I bet he'd be a super fun drinking partner. And the drink is. Lead with a paper plane for class, follow up with an old fashioned Obviously debating sugar cubes versus simple syrup. I think simple syrup. He thinks sugar cubes. The sugar source debate leads us to running through expensive pours on the bourbon list. After Sirius fumbles a few too many pickup lines with the witch behind the bar, I remind him that she's at work and we relegate ourselves to PBRs for the rest of the night. Sounds like the best evening ever.

[D]

I was gonna say, who hasn't had a night like that?

[A]

Darren says I would have to say Lupin. He's been with the Order since the first war and has been going undercover with the werewolves, so he probably knows a lot. Drink of choice? Manhattan.

[D]

Lovely. Julianne says, I think that Helena Ravenclaw Ghost has lots of secrets she could share. And there's no drink of choice mentioned here, so I'm just gonna say a bourbon neat. What are we talking about?

[A]

Can you get a ghost drunk?

[D]

Can you get a ghost drink? I mean, you would think they could taste it, right? Because, I mean, especially if you're doing hard liquor, if they float through it the way we see him.

[C]

Sorry, guys, that drink just went right through me.

[B]

I say that a lot. Jared said Albus Dumbledore so I could actually know what he was up to. During all of the Harry Potter books, Jared did not drop a drink as well. So I'm going to say the gin I'm having tonight.

[C]

Oh my God. Okay. Kayla says, Pansy Parkinson. I really don't like her and I would love to get her drunk and spill all of her deep dark secrets so that she can be embarrassed. And I would get her drunk with wine so that she can have a really crappy hangover afterwards.

[B]

Aw, Kayla. Not all of us have hangovers after drinking.

[C]

Kayla hopes that Pansy Parkinson gets overserved.

[A]

Sarah says Madame Rosemerta. She's a bartender, so you know, she's heard all the stories and gossip and drama from both the townspeople and the Hogwarts folks. O with Fire Whiskey.

[D]

And rounding us out here, Zachary says Bellatrix. Drink of choice? Vodka soda. I'd love to hear all of the details of how horrible the Malfoys and Lestranges are, so I could build up a case to have them put away for good.

[B]

You can participate in the Links Line segment every week on our patreon patreon.com mugglecast we love hearing from our listeners. And speaking of feedback, if you have any other feedback about today's discussion, you can send an owl to mugglecastmail.com you can also use that email address to send us a voice memo. You can also contact us via Spotify or YouTube or social media DMs. Whatever easiest for you. And as you heard earlier in the episode, we read an email in the main discussion, which we rarely do these days. We're going to start integrating feedback into the main discussions rather than having dedicated.

[C]

Muggle Mail episodes like we did today. Thanks to Rachel for being our first.

[B]

Next week we will continue our Half Blood Prince discussion with Chapter 14 Felix Felicis. Visit mugglecast.com for our contact form, links to our social media, our Patreon transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And if you're looking for more podcasting from the four of us, you can listen to our other shows, Millennial and what the Hype for more pop culture and real world talk. Now it's time for Quizzage.

[C]

This week's question. In chapter 12 of book 6, the password to the Gryffindor common room is dillagroud. In real life is dilligrout a bird, B a stew, C a medicinal herb, or D a cave fungus. Dillegrout is actually a stew for those who did not know. It features a base of almond milk. It's got chicken, sugar and various spices. These days it's made with almonds, white wine, pine nuts, mace, cloves, ginger, and sometimes rice or pork. Amazing. 60% of people with the correct answers said that they did look it up, meaning that not many people knew that. And here are this week's winners. Cheese shark. Finty creatures. Crusty old nails. Poof. Souffle or poof? Poof. Souffle.

[D]

Pouf.

[C]

It's the French version of Hufflepuff for the translation. Stewie Brewy, Pettigrewy, Silvia Wicktoria. And here's a joke that somebody sent in. Why can't you use beef stew as a computer password? Because it's not stroganoff. As in it's not strong enough. Not stroganoff.

[A]

We got it.

[B]

We got it. That was only funny because I have some gin tonight.

[C]

And here's next week's Quizzage question. Having to do, of course, why couldn't I not do this with mouth organs? The harmonica was one of two musical instruments smuggled into space by US astronauts aboard Gemini 6. On December 16, 1965, astronauts Wally Shira and Tom Stafford played a prank on mission control by reporting a ufo which turned out to be Santa Claus in his sleigh. What song did the astronauts play using the harmonica? That became also the first song played in space. This is the definition of trivia, and everyone should submit their answers to us using the Quizzic Trivia form located on the Mugglecast website. Mugglecast.com Quizzic if you're already on the website, just click on the little button that says Kwizzitch from the main nav.

[B]

We're about to record a new Bonus Mugglecast in which Micah shares his Harry Potter hot takes, including the Howl's Elves regularly defecated in Slytherin's food. So we're gonna see Micah try to explain that and many more unhinged topics in Bonus Mugglecast this week that'll be available on our patreon patreon.com mugglecast thanks everyone for listening. I'm Andrew.

[C]

I'm Eric.

[A]

I'm Micah.

[D]

And I'm Laura.

[B]

Bye everyone.

[D]

Bye.

[E]

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[D]

Experian.