Good Harry, Good Harry (OOTP Chapter 33, 'Fight and Flight')

Summary

MuggleCast: The Harry Potter Re-Read Podcast

Episode: Good Harry, Good Harry (OOTP Chapter 33, 'Fight and Flight')
Release Date: July 29, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of MuggleCast, hosts Andrew, Eric, Micah, and Laura dive deep into Chapter 33 of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, titled "Fight and Flight." The discussion centers around the intense events unfolding in the Forbidden Forest, particularly focusing on Dolores Umbridge's confrontation with Harry and Hermione, and the subsequent chaos that ensues.

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Recap of Previous Discussions

Andrew begins by reminiscing about last week's bonus episode, where the hosts reflect on July 2007—the month marked by the premiere of the Order of the Phoenix movie and the release of the Deathly Hallows book. This period was highlighted as one of the most exhilarating times in Harry Potter fandom history, filled with personal anecdotes and memorable moments.

Laura: "We talk about how much fun we had discussing that special month in that bonus MuggleCast. Things got personal. Very personal."
Timestamp: [03:21]

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Analysis of Chapter 33: Fight and Flight

Umbridge's Ego and Motivation

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Dolores Umbridge's character traits, particularly her inflated ego and blind determination to uncover Dumbledore's supposed dark plans.

Andrew: "She's confident that her suspicions about Dumbledore are correct and she's excited to see what she's been thinking has been the case for herself."
Timestamp: [07:23]

Laura: "She's also saying the quiet part out loud here... 'The Ministry places a rather higher value on my life than yours, I'm afraid.'"
Timestamp: [07:53]

The hosts agree that Umbridge's arrogance blinds her to obvious red flags, making her increasingly reckless as she forces Harry and Hermione into the Forbidden Forest with minimal support.

Hermione's Strategy and Its Flaws

Hermione's plan to lead Umbridge into the Forbidden Forest is dissected, highlighting both its ingenuity and its potential pitfalls.

Eric: "I think this was a good plan because it feeds into Umbridge and the Ministry's existing narrative about Dumbledore."
Timestamp: [21:30]

However, the hosts critique Hermione's execution, noting that while her intentions are sound, her approach lacks the necessary foresight, especially in anticipating the centaurs' likely hostility.

Micah: "In theory, it's a good plan, but in practice, looking for the centaurs to clean up the mess doesn't go very well."
Timestamp: [28:14]

Centaur Dynamics and Reactions

The centaurs' response to the intrusion is a focal point, emphasizing their disdain for humans and their territorial nature.

Laura: "We have to remember, just a few short chapters ago, Harry and Hermione were in here with Hagrid... and now the three of them are on the wrong side of these Centaur's arrows."
Timestamp: [14:00]

Eric: "The centaurs are very militant about their culture and personhood. Hermione thought they would align with her plan, but it backfires."
Timestamp: [32:18]

The hosts explore the broader implications of magical creatures' treatment within the wizarding world, drawing parallels to real-world issues of discrimination and autonomy.

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Climactic Battle and Grop's Intervention

As tensions escalate, a fierce confrontation ensues between Umbridge, Harry, Hermione, and the centaurs. The introduction of Grop, a bloodthirsty creature, shifts the dynamics dramatically.

Laura: "Grop gives the centaurs enough distraction for Harry and Hermione to get away, which is a good thing."
Timestamp: [40:37]

Micah: "Grop’s intervention is reminiscent of Buckbeak’s rescue in Prisoner of Azkaban. It showcases Hagrid’s role as a protector."
Timestamp: [41:37]

The battle's aftermath sees Umbridge captured and the protagonists narrowly escaping, setting the stage for the ensuing chaos in the wizarding world.

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Character Reactions and Group Dynamics

Post-battle, the group dynamics shift as Ron, Ginny, Neville, and Luna arrive, each displaying traits that both aid and complicate the mission to rescue Sirius.

Eric: "Ginny used the bat bogey hex on Malfoy... I would not want to get on Ginny's bad side."
Timestamp: [48:07]

Micah: "Neville and Ginny have successfully fought off the Inquisitorial Squad, showcasing their growth and capability."
Timestamp: [47:53]

The hosts debate Harry's reluctance to include the entire Dumbledore's Army (DA) in the mission, questioning whether his decision showcases leadership flaws or strategic caution.

Laura: "Harry realizes pretty quickly that there's no arguing the point because he does surrender pretty quickly out of frustration."
Timestamp: [43:51]

Andrew: "Harry is frustrated because he feels like they've wasted time that could have been spent rescuing Sirius."
Timestamp: [43:50]

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Use of Magical Creatures for Rescue

The strategic use of Thestrals, invisible to most, becomes a pivotal element in the rescue plan, symbolizing Harry’s evolving relationship with concepts of death and acceptance.

Laura: "Harry is more grateful and affectionate towards the Thestrals than I think he would have ever imagined."
Timestamp: [57:00]

Micah: "Luna suggests riding the Thestrals, which enables their swift move towards the Department of Mysteries."
Timestamp: [58:25]

The hosts appreciate the thematic depth this adds, noting how it intertwines with Harry's personal growth and his acceptance of mortality.

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Listener Engagement

MVP Question of the Week

The hosts pose the question: "Who is the most valuable DA member to join for this trip to the Ministry?" They encourage listeners to consider members beyond those present in the chapter, fostering deeper fan engagement and speculative discussions.

Andrew: "Hermione is a good analytical member to bring along because of her resourcefulness."
Timestamp: [59:06]

Laura: "Jenny is probably the most powerful DA member that should join."
Timestamp: [60:25]

Links Line: Listener Responses

The hosts share humorous and creative listener-submitted answers to what Hermione should have said to the centaurs to avoid confrontation.

Laura: "They would have carted them straight off to wherever they took Umbridge."
Timestamp: [63:09]

Eric: "Which one of you is the favorite in the Grand National?"
Timestamp: [64:35]

The responses highlight the community's wit and deep engagement with the series' lore.

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Conclusion and Wrap-Up

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the themes of death and sacrifice woven throughout the chapter, emphasizing Harry's growing maturity and the camaraderie within the DA.

Laura: "Death is a full circle theme in this book, but also in this series."
Timestamp: [57:02]

Micah: "Using flying creatures to rescue Sirius ties back to earlier magical rescues, creating a seamless narrative thread."
Timestamp: [56:20]

The episode concludes with a teaser for the next chapter's discussion and a reminder for listeners to join their Patreon community for exclusive content.

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Notable Quotes with Attribution

• Andrew: "She's confident that her suspicions about Dumbledore are correct and she's excited to see what she's been thinking has been the case for herself."
  [07:23]

• Laura: "The Ministry places a rather higher value on my life than yours, I'm afraid."
  [07:53]

• Eric: "They would have killed them on the spot."
  [63:23]

• Micah: "She didn't think that the Centaur's morality standards would align with her own."
  [32:18]

• Laura: "Harry is more grateful and affectionate towards the Thestrals than I think he would have ever imagined."
  [57:00]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of MuggleCast excels in dissecting the complexities of Chapter 33, offering insightful critiques of character decisions and their ramifications within the broader narrative. The hosts balance analytical depth with engaging banter, making the discussion accessible and entertaining for both longtime fans and newcomers to the series.

Listeners are encouraged to participate in future episodes by joining the Patreon community, submitting questions, and sharing their theories, fostering a vibrant and interactive fandom experience.

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Thank you for tuning into MuggleCast! Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform to never miss an episode.

Transcript

[Laura]

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[Eric]

This episode is brought to you by Indeed. When your computer breaks, you don't wait for it to magically start working again. You fix the problem. So why wait to hire the people your company desperately needs? Use Indeed sponsored jobs to hire top talent fast. And even better, you only pay for results. There's no need to wait. Speed up your hiring with a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal, so there.

[Andrew]

Goes my big idea for the commercial.

[Eric]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Laura]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra.

[Andrew]

See mintmobile.com welcome to Mugglecast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

And we're your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming television show. Make sure you press that follow button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode of Mugglecast. We release new episodes every Tuesday. And this week on the show we're reminded that karma is a bitch because we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 33, Fight and Flight. Somebody wrote this out in a censored manner at first. And then I was like, I did. But it's in the book. So I mean, you know, I say it's fair game.

[Laura]

You're saying it's canon?

[Andrew]

Well, bit I mean the word bitch because it's in the book. It's okay to say in the show. Yeah, that's. That's my role.

[Laura]

Okay. I didn't realize that was where we drew the line.

[Eric]

Well, remember last time we were discussing this part of the book? We played Elton John Yeah.

[Andrew]

Before we jump into chapter by chapter, a couple of important reminders. If you love this show and want to help us keep it running as reliably as counting on the centaurs to get rid of the school's high inquisitor, we invite you to become a member of our community. At patreon.com mugglecast, you can get instant access to two bonus Mugglecast episodes every month. Add free episodes of the show, access to our recording studio, a personal video thank you message from one of the four Mugglecasters, and a lot more. We're actually recording a new bonus Mogulcast this this week, right, Micah?

[Micah]

Yes, we are. We are just a week away as we sit here recording this episode of mugglecast from Harry's 45th birthday. So if that doesn't make you feel old, I don't know what does. But we're going to talk about Harry's birthday in the Harry Potter series books one to seven. Then we're also going to maybe think of some gifts that we would get him for his 45th birthday birthday as he gets up there a little bit in age. And then what would some characters in the Harry Potter series decide to bring Harry as he turns the ripe old age of 45? So we're going to have a little bit of fun with this one, I hope.

[Andrew]

Sounds good. Speaking of fun, in last week's bonus Mugglecast, we looked back on the month of July 2007, what I have been calling the craziest month in Harry Potter fandom history. We were all very busy that month with the Order of the Phoenix movie premiere, the Deathly Hallows book release. And we had a lot of fun back then and we had a lot of fun discussing that special month in that bonus Mugglecast. Things got personal. Very personal.

[Laura]

So don't miss it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, for some of us, yeah.

[Eric]

This time of year is always fun because it, you know, just brings back such good memories.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Do y' all look in your, like Facebook on this day memory and time hop, like this month, like you get all.

[Laura]

You can be reminded of the cringe that we used to think was socially acceptable to put up on social media.

[Andrew]

Like socially acceptable to wear.

[Eric]

I had really weird Facebook statuses. I don't understand them. I look at it, I'm like a.

[Laura]

Lot of us did.

[Andrew]

So we record these bonus mugglecast episodes for patrons. They're a lot of fun all the time. Please do check them out. If you're looking for other ways to support us, visit mugglecastmerch.com to buy official gear like the T shirt that I'm wearing tonight. You'll be able to find limited time patron gifts from years past. We we'd also appreciate if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app. And please do tell a friend about the show. Finally, visit mugglecast.com for quick access to all of this information, our contact form, and lots more. So now let's get into chapter by chapter. Just a few more chapters in this book to go. Order of The Phoenix Chapter 33 Fight and Flight.

[Eric]

That's right. Last time that we were discussing this chapter, it was on a dual chapter episode called Punked. This was episode 471. Let's find out what we were talking about regarding this chapter. Three turns should do anything. Good luck. What the.

[Laura]

Episode 471?

[Andrew]

Wasn't it just a few chapters ago? Harry was resisting the help of Ron or Hermione or both. He can be resistant to even having Ron and Hermione on board and then to double the size of this group. Sounds risky and sounds like it's like going out with a bunch of people for the day. It's a pain in the butt to have six people versus three or three versus two. What do you want to do? What do you want to do? What direction do you want to take in the ministry?

[Eric]

I don't know.

[Andrew]

What direction do you want to take in the ministry?

[Eric]

For some reason, I got the inkling that you're talking about going with a large group to Disneyland.

[Andrew]

Yes, exactly. What ride do you want to go on? What prophecy do you want to grab? What veil do you want to walk through? It's just all these extra churros.

[Micah]

Yeah, churros.

[Eric]

Mysterious thing time.

[Andrew]

I like how Mikey just says churros.

[Micah]

It's like a. Like a Homer Simpson. Oh, churros.

[Eric]

That was June 30th of 2020, by the way.

[Laura]

In this chapter, we pick off immediately. Or we pick up immediately where we left off last chapter with Umbridge honestly showing kind of telling on herself for how dim she is because she is completely failing to see the litany of red flags laid out in front of her because she is so consumed with finding Dumbledore's WMDs. So because of that, we're just willing to charge into the forbidden Forest accompanied by no one else but two unarmed teenagers.

[Eric]

She's got.

[Laura]

I don't know what kind of flex she thought this was, but she's excited.

[Andrew]

I guess she's so excited that she can't think clearly And I think a word I'm going to use a couple times today is ego. She has a very big ego. She is confident that her suspicions about Dumbledore are correct and she's excited to see what she's been thinking has been the case for herself.

[Laura]

Yeah, she's also saying the quiet part out loud here. At one point when she, Harry and Hermione were getting ready to go into the forest Harry suggested to her, hey, can one of us have your wand so we can light the way since you're making us go in first and you know, you took our wands away from us. And she just says no. The Ministry places a rather higher value on my life than yours, I'm afraid. Micah, do you buy this?

[Micah]

No. And this goes exactly to what Andrew was talking about in terms of ego. Even at this juncture in the series, I don't think the Ministry could give two flying, you know what's about Umbridge's life, Fudge? Maybe to some extent, but the Ministry overall probably could care less about her. And you know, this is coming from her own sense of entitlement and self importance. I still think that regardless of where we are in this series, the Ministry at the end of the day places a much higher value on Harry's life than somebody like Dolores Umbridge.

[Andrew]

I think so too. Yeah.

[Eric]

I think this year they would prefer that Harry were. If something were to happen to him, I don't think they'd be too caught up about it. It would be to their detriment for sure.

[Micah]

That's fair.

[Eric]

But this year in particular, you know, Umbridge is the one who's making Hogwarts great again and Harry's the one that, you know, they really wish like if Fudge cared that much about Harry or placed any value of his life he might have looked into further what happened with the Dementors or anything like that. So I think that Umbridge, from her perspective, it probably has a point. This year if anything did happen to Harry we know that they would all be screwed.

[Andrew]

Just this year because she's working at the school this year, Is that it?

[Eric]

This year? Because this is the year where Harry's a thorn in the Ministry side, right? They're not ready to admit that, that, that Voldemort's back. And if Harry were to die mysteriously all of a sudden would they really be that cut up about it? Well that's one big mouthpiece that's now gone saying that Voldemort's back so they get to preserve the lie.

[Andrew]

Don't start asking questions, though. Start asking questions like, how did Harry die? And of course, what makes me sick to my stomach is that Umbridge would just start making up something about, oh, Dumbledore did this to him. He forced the boy to go into the forest. Or, you know, something like that.

[Laura]

Right. I think the thing. I think this would play perfectly into the Ministry's narrative about Harry being addled and not believable. I think this would flow very naturally into excuses about Harry having gotten in too deep, he got in over his head and something that he didn't understand and it got him killed. I could very easily see them passing that narrative off because it allows everyone to feel comfortable and safe because Voldemort's not actually back.

[Micah]

* Find it fascinating that even in this moment Umbridge's first thought is to go to justify her actions in some way via the Ministry. Right. Like she's like, well, no, I can't give you my wand because if something were to happen to me, the Ministry would be so upset. It's like, the Ministry. The Ministry. Who cares about the Ministry?

[Eric]

I view it as gloating, but it is a part of her identity. It's a huge part of her identity. Like, when she's ever feeling uncertain about something she's like, I have the Ministry. That's why she announces her role and position when she's intimidated by the Centaurs which it turns out, is the wrong thing to do. There's many wrong things to do when confronted with Centaurs. But it's her identifying herself as being from the Ministry something that brings her comfort, solidity. Like she feels a valued member of the team, as she's saying in this line of dialogue. And that makes her and only her feel confident. But it shouldn't, because she's way out of her depth. And I think it's dawning on her as they're all walking into the forest how out of her depth she is. And the only thing she can do is kind of be the only one armed right now. And that's why she doesn't give the kids their wands.

[Micah]

I just don't think that. I think Fudge may put a high value on her life. I don't know that the Ministry overall really cares that much about her. And we see that as one of these based on. Well, yes, because Fudge is Minister for Magic. But let's just think back to the beginning of this book. Look at how Harry's trial went. That is the broader Ministry, as opposed to just like One particular section of it.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah, I think she's convenient. Right. Because at least for right now, she's on Fudge's side. And that's all he wants, is to be surrounded by yes men and women. So she's toeing the party line. That makes her useful. And I think, to that extent, she's valuable. But think about it. I mean, she's not the only one working at the Ministry who operates this way. So I have to think that perhaps Cornelius would shed a few tears if she were to be lost. But I just don't know that the Ministry would experience any kind of ripple effect from Dolores Umbridge never coming back from her kidnapping.

[Eric]

What Fudge likes about Umbridge is that she's a fanatic. I think he knows. I think he knows that she's willing not. Not just toe the company line. I think she's ready to go right up to. And blazingly cross it in the name of the Ministry of what is good and right meaning whatever Fudge thinks and says is good and right. And so she's a champion for the Ministry and that's what he likes about her. And those sorts of people that'll really go to it and put it all out and identify themselves as being your, you know, that's my boss, the minister are, you know, fewer in the world.

[Micah]

Let's not forget, though, it's not the Ministry, it's not Fudge that comes to her rescue. It's Dumbledore.

[Eric]

Well, that's just his problem, his saving people.

[Micah]

I'm just saying, if the Ministry cares so much about Umbridge, where were they?

[Andrew]

Yeah, case closed.

[Laura]

Good question.

[Eric]

There would be no more Ministry if they faced.

[Laura]

And that's actually a point in the positive column for Dumbledore too. I mean, I don't know that Harry would have batted an eye if he heard that Dumbledore had not gone to her rescue. I think. I mean, based on the way we see Harry react to what happens to the centaurs later on in this chapter I think he would be like, yeah, whatever.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we're talking about the woman who basically tortured him earlier in this.

[Laura]

Exactly.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Well, there's a lot of crashing through the forest that happens in this chapter. So we are gonna kind of move ahead to talking about the result of Harry, Hermione and Umbridge crashing through the forest. It becomes pretty clear as we get closer to the center of the forest and there's less daylight permeating the top layers of the trees. It becomes very clear that Hermione wants them to be overheard. And before long, the centaurs arrive and. And they are, of course, none too pleased to see humans in the forest. We have to remember, just a few short chapters ago, Harry and Hermione were in here with Hagrid and Bane and Megorian were very clear in saying, don't come in here again or else. And now the three of them are on the wrong side of these Centaur's arrows. Even though we recognize that Harry and Hermione are absolutely not in league with Umbridge, but there's really no difference, it seems, to the Centaurs at this point. So I was wondering, how does Hermione know that they're going to attract the Centaur's attention specifically? There are a lot of creatures that live in the forest. Clearly, Grop showing up a little bit later was unplanned. So how does she know?

[Micah]

She just yells out, horse. It's not actually written down, but horses, nays, horses.

[Andrew]

Come here, kitty, kitty. Well, me. Go ahead, Micah.

[Micah]

It reminds me a bit of Stranger Danger in terms of making as much noise as possible to draw attention to yourself. I feel like we've talked about Stranger Danger on the show before in some capacity, but. But this particular moment where Hermione is luring Umbridge into the forest, she knows that there are creatures in there that could potentially come to her aid. So just by making as much noise as she possibly can, she knows that she's going to draw something to her. Maybe it's not the centaurs.

[Eric]

It's interesting. I want to touch on that point, like whether it was the centaurs she was planning on, because the dialogue would seem to indicate. Yes, when she tells them, we hoped you'd take care of her for us. It's horrible. But she's actually, according to Harry, going in the direction of Aragog's lair. And in fact, not so. Hermione's never been to where Aragog is, but Hermione has been to where Gro is. I think the natural thing that you would expect Hermione to be going to is actually Grop. But for some reason in the writing it said she's not going there. And Harry knows, I guess, which way leads to where.

[Andrew]

Maybe she was a little lost herself. But yeah, to the point about Harry, I'm surprised that he would even remember how to get to where Aragog's lair was. Because if you just imagine a forest and let's say you've only traversed a couple of times, sometimes at night. Yeah. You don't gain a sense of direction from that. You don't remember that for the next time unless there's some clearly marked trails. But I don't think all trails is available in the wizarding world. Am I Right, everybody? 5% of our audience will understand that reference.

[Eric]

I'm going to download that app after this show.

[Andrew]

It's a great app. I, I use it all the time. But I, I do think too that Hermione's backup plan was, well, best case scenario, we run into some centaurs. If not, we'll run into another beast. That'll scare the crap out of her and she'll run away or the beast will eat her or something like that. So it is kind of foolproof, this plan.

[Eric]

Yeah, I would agree with this. I mean, really, the shocking thing, and I think we'll probably go into it more, but the shocking thing is that she, like Hermione, managed to get Umbridge alone. Like there was an entire inquisitorial squad that was very menacing to them and she managed to trick and talk her way out of the castle. So no matter what happens now, it's at the very least two against one. And that's a lot better. The odds for some kind of escape or some kind of subduing of Umbridge, regardless of whatever's in the forest about to meet them.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, we're actually going to break down Hermione's plan and pass a little judgment on it. But first we need to take a quick break and we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Stay Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want, like that dream house or ride, is a great feeling. That's why the State Farm Personal Price Plan can help you save when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state.

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[Laura]

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[Laura]

Sea, Mike and Alyssa are always trying.

[Andrew]

To outdo each other.

[Eric]

When Alyssa got a small water bottle.

[Andrew]

Mike showed up with a 4 liter jug.

[Eric]

When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping. Oh, come on.

[Laura]

They called a truce for their holiday.

[Andrew]

And used Expedia trip planner to collaborate.

[Laura]

On all the details of their trip.

[Andrew]

Once there, Mike still Did more laps around the pool, whatever. You were made to outdo your holidays. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia. Made to travel.

[Laura]

Okay, so let's break down this plan. And I know before the break I said we're going to judge it, but we're not necessarily going to judge here. I think when it comes to Hermione, I think there are a number of ways that we've talked about various times on this show where Hermione can be amazingly astute and clever for her age. And yet sometimes there can be certain social faux pas that feel confusing coming from a character who is as on top of it as she is most of the time. So we'll probably see some of this here, but I think we're gonna see a mixture of opinions about how this plan breaks down over the course of events. So step one, Hermione tells Umbridge the thing that Umbridge has been dying to hear. And this is last chapter, that Dumbledore was using students to build some kind of weapon to deal with Umbridge. Do we say this was a good or a bad plan?

[Eric]

It's a good plan, yeah.

[Andrew]

Because it feeds into Umbridge and the Ministry's existing narrative that they have for Dumbledore. And it kind of reminds me of Harry seeing. Being serious in danger in his vision.

[Laura]

He's.

[Andrew]

They're getting these confirmation biases. Biases. Biases, yeah.

[Laura]

That's a great catch.

[Eric]

And. And tunnel vision as a result of that. Because you feel it's, It's. It's hitting all the right spots where you can't focus because you feel threatened. Oh, that.

[Laura]

What?

[Eric]

There's a weapon. Oh, my God. I've got to go find this and get control of it, you know, and it really allows you to start making mistakes.

[Laura]

Yeah, Well, I mean, this is like her deepest fear, I think. Do we ever get to see Umbridge face off with a boggart? Because it would be this, I feel like if we did, at least at this point in time while she's teaching at Hogwarts. I think that is her greatest fear. She really thinks that she is so important that Dumbledore is specifically designing a weapon to be used against her.

[Eric]

I think after three rounds, her boggart is probably a Niffler, if I'm being honest.

[Laura]

Oh, yeah.

[Eric]

Not to contradict. I forgot how many times the Niffler.

[Andrew]

And her square off.

[Laura]

She's probably traumatized by that.

[Eric]

That is a bit rough.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Eric]

To be honest.

[Laura]

Okay, well, we're gonna go on to step two here, which is Hermione goads Umbridge with some reverse psychology so that Umbridge won't bring the Inquisitorial Squad with her. This is when basically, Umbridge is thinking Malfoy and some of the others. And Hermione's like, good, I hope you do. And I hope they all learn how to use it so they can use it against you. I mean, totally plays her. I mean, plays into every worst fear that she has, good or bad plan for Hermione.

[Micah]

It's great reverse psychology. It really floors me that she, being umbrage willingly will follow two students into the forest without any sort of backup plan. Especially given that they're supposedly locating a weapon and she has no idea what this weapon could be. It could be a person, it could be a beast, it could be something or someone who could easily overpower her. But just like Harry isn't thinking logically in this particular moment, I don't think Umbridge is thinking logically in this particular moment. She's just letting the excitement of everything get the best of her and she's doing something that's completely reckless. And kudos to Hermione. I really see her going to the only place where she felt like there could be potential allies, and that's in the Forbidden Forest. Like, she takes Umbridge to the one place that would allow Harry and Hermione to get the upper hand.

[Eric]

And I think what works too, for me is the gradual realization by Umbridge that it's the forest. I think, you know, Hermione very cleverly didn't say exactly where the weapon was located. And in fact, I think as soon as they're out on the main grounds, Umbrid says, oh, oh, it's in the hut, isn't it? Because I think she's a bit nervous. Oh, wait, where exactly is this? If they had said back in her office that it's in the forest, I think maybe Umbridge still would have bought backup. And if it wasn't the Inquisitorial Squad, who she doesn't trust, she would have phoned ahead for Ministry people, like people that she commands through her power of the Ministry to then go in the forest with her or something. But the point is, it's extremely clever for Hermione to not indicate that they're going into the forest until, well, we're already here.

[Micah]

Right? Yeah, maybe the same people that she commissioned to help with attacking Hagrid if.

[Eric]

They'Re not all in right now for being flattened. But yeah, exactly, those sorts of people.

[Laura]

Do we think it's a Bit of like, sunk cost fallacy with Umbridge, where she's confronted with going into the forest, but the only alternative is for her to turn around and go back and say, hey, Inquisitorial Squad. Just kidding. I can't handle this on my own. I don't think she has it in her to do that. I think she willingly walks into a terrible situation because she's unwilling to admit to herself that she's in over her head.

[Eric]

Yes, absolutely. And what's good about the writing in this chapter is you can see there's these little things like Umbridge made an odd little noise or the ragged breaths behind her. And you can see, you can feel, you can hear and sense in no small way, before she even panic, talks about anything, that Umbridge is definitely exhausted and in over her head.

[Andrew]

I think over the course of this book, we also learn that she's a very clean, tidy, organized person. You think of her office, how nice that all is. She's not a hiker. She's not somebody who would go into the Forbidden Forest normally, you know, she's not using the All Trails app, so.

[Eric]

I was going to say she's not a person who has that app that you were talking about a moment ago. Is that All Trails? A L, L, T R A I.

[Andrew]

I was supposed to be recording this episode from near, so I've got hiking on my mind right now.

[Eric]

Oh, man.

[Andrew]

Next week I'll be eaten by bears instead of this week. She's just very uncomfortable with this environment in general. She wouldn't be out here under normal circumstances.

[Micah]

It is somewhat reminiscent to A Prisoner of Azkaban in the sense of we have that scene where they're leading Pettigrew out of the Whomping Willow, and don't they have the wand prodded at his back to make sure that he doesn't escape? So I think there are some comparisons you could draw here. I know we'll talk about some a little bit later, but just connecting those threads between book three and book five.

[Laura]

Yeah, I love that you bring that up, Micah. Because another connection is Harry and Hermione being in the Forbidden Forest in book three and book five. And Ron is, like, indisposed, either with a broken leg in one and then, you know, captured momentarily by the Inquisitorial Squad in this one. So lots of little clever things like that. So we talked about this a little bit before, but I wanted to ask the pointed question. With Hermione leading them in the Forbidden Forest with the express intent of hoping that a magical creature will intervene and rid them of Umbridge. Is this a good or bad plan?

[Andrew]

A good plan.

[Micah]

Good in theory, bad in practice.

[Andrew]

Why bad in practice?

[Micah]

Because she's looking for the centaurs to clean up the mess. And as we see, that doesn't really go very well. So I think her intention is good in that, as I was saying earlier this is probably one of the only places that she can take umbrage where it creates a more equal footing. But her approach to the centaurs when they show up and some of the things that she says. I know we're gonna get into talking about that a little bit. The delivery could have been better. But again, she's in this moment, right? And she has to think quickly on her feet. And I think it shows a little bit of what we've often talked about with Hermione. She's not very street smart. She's book smart. And if she would have taken a little bit more time to maybe rationalize what she was gonna say knowing how she's encountered Bane and Megorian before maybe things would have gone a little bit differently.

[Eric]

I gotta say, they had about 30 minutes or so while walking in the forest to plan what they were gonna say when they get somewhere. So there is that. But, yeah, it's interesting because Hermione knows that it's a huge mistake to disrespect a centaur the way that Umbridge does it. Hermione immediately freaks out and it's like, no, no, no. But what Hermione is doing is not that much more respectful. She did not, for instance, respect, like, their sovereignty. She's like, I'm on a traips on their territory till we get stopped. That ain't great. And as soon as they kind of ask her and confront her for her to say, you know, oh, we thought you'd. You'd get rid of her for us is absolutely. It's really problematic and it's really bad. So I have a question here because this is. This just came up on last week's Muggle Mail episode going back to when she was referring to Friends as the Horse. Between that odd moment that starts that chapter a couple chapters ago where I'm like, it could still be just like a wonky line to now her running right into Centaur territory and getting, you know, bows and arrows pointed at her because she's disrespecting their autonomy as sentient beings. Now I'm starting to ask the question, is Hermione, like, prejudicial against the Centaurs? Like what exactly is kind of going on? What is her thinking here is it backfires on.

[Laura]

Yeah, I think Hermione's. And I mean to be fair, like maybe pretty likely everyone carries that level of internal unconscious bias. Exactly. But you know, I think the big mistake that Hermione makes here is assuming that the Centaur's morality standards will align with her own. So her thinking is well, we're children, we're innocents. They should totally get that. And we're itty bitty bees. Yeah, we didn't know when that's the case.

[Andrew]

We're so sorry, Mr. Centaur. Right, yeah. They don't have patience for anybody, including children.

[Eric]

Well, that's the part of it, right. Is like we thought you'd take care of her for us. Like, like it's like they're the violent, brutish, you know, subhuman species that can fix all of humans problems. Like, I understand why. I think the Centaurs in this chapter are very clearly a bit militant about their culture and personhood and all of that. But if you even look past how they are particularly affected I think you can see what Hermione is doing, why it's wrong and why it's like problematic that she thought this would happen.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Micah]

She doesn't think though. Yeah, that's part of it in that she's the one who brought Umbridge here. So technically she's bringing the problem into the forest. And if we look back even at a couple of chapters ago, the way that Bane and Mogorian in particular reacted to Harry and Hermione being there wasn't overly positive. They, they were ready to throw fists with Hagrid, basically.

[Eric]

Well, and Hagrid all year has been bringing a problem into their forest. Yeah, that's the other thing this radicalized them is like everyone is bringing their.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. You know, this does raise the question again, who owns the forest?

[Eric]

Why?

[Andrew]

Why do they think it's their forest? Well, I'm not sold.

[Laura]

They're not allowed to be anywhere else.

[Eric]

Like that's what Umbridge says. Yeah, well Umbridge says we allow you to be here, but.

[Laura]

Yeah, right, but they're restricted in their movements. I mean they. I don't think that Hogwarts would admit Centaurs as students. I don't know where else would permit them to live freely in a community. Like, I just really don't see a place like Godric's Hollow welcoming Centaurs to live in their community. So they're feeling like we get the scraps of this society that you force us into and now you're trying to ruin that too.

[Eric]

And they find it so debasing to even interact with humans, really. That's why they don't like Forenz. Forenz is more of a diplomat and Forenz can appreciate the differences between the cultures and forensic skeptical of his own, of his own kind, you know, and he's asked the questions and he's so. He's a huge traitor to them because he sees life outside their small, close knit group and is willing to try. But they find it just very debasing.

[Andrew]

I would just jump back to the question I was asking. I feel like centaurs could maybe go elsewhere, go abroad. I mean there's a lot of land out in the world. Have I mentioned hiking? When you go hiking you see a lot of land.

[Eric]

Do you have like an app when you do that? Andrew, Is there like a.

[Andrew]

No, but I just feel like, look, I, I understand the situation where the ministry has given them, you know, permission to freely use certain land, but I, I just feel like it's a big, big world out there and they should go elsewhere and say f the ministries for all country, all countries, let's just go live life somewhere private that we can find ourselves. And always.

[Eric]

The problem is never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. And I think the ministry would wage war if the centaurs didn't be like, I'm sure that, I'm sure goblin rebellions, but I'm sure there have already been some fights with centaurs and Centaurs, you know, were forced to their small territory in the forest and maybe one or two other locations.

[Laura]

Right? Yeah. I think that's the problem is that they've probably already been kicked out of other places where they were living. I mean, I'm guessing that they haven't always been in the forbidden forest. Certainly not all centaurs live there. But it really is giving me the impression that they don't want to be moved again and they don't want people encroaching on the territory that they can claim as their own.

[Eric]

It's interesting too because this book just has so many elements. Like, I think of Grop as like a displaced being too because of the giants and what we've learned about them being kind of not hunted, but they, they're dwindling in numbers. They're found in only one or two regions just like the centaurs are. And getting to looking ahead at the statue of magical brethren which has, you know, the races and humans, they think it was a house elf. Centaurs, just like how humanity is, is treating it, how wizardkind is treating its fellow creatures is very interesting to kind of think about and talk about.

[Laura]

Yeah. Well, do we, before we move on, do we think there's anything. Is there a different way Hermione could have pitched this to the centaurs, that, that might have made things turn out differently.

[Eric]

I'm going to pivot and say, Harry should pull his damn weight. Right. Harry has not said one interesting thing to help with Hermione's plan this entire time. All he's done is raise alarm bells going, hermione, I think we're being loud. Think reveal. She's like, it's part of the plan. Harry usually around this time would come up with something brilliant. Right. That gets them right off the hook. And for once he's just silent. He doesn't have anything. And he lets Hermione kind of bumble her way through it. And it's a miracle they've able to leave alive.

[Micah]

I, I don't think that she could have done much different because of the audience that she's faced with here, in particular Bane and Mogorian. I just don't know what she could have said differently that would have changed their reaction and their response. Because again, she's the one who has led Umbridge into, let's just for the sake of argument for this particular moment, say their territory and now they're. The expectation on Hermione's part is that, okay, well, I've brought you this problem. Solve it for me. Right. And it just doesn't come across in a good way. Maybe she could have, if she had a little bit more time, spun up a story about how Umbridge was taking them into the forest to do harm to the Centaurs and so they wanted to trick her and here she is. Do with or what you will. Like, I don't. I just don't know. I just. I think we're meant to see that there's this side to central culture, though.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Like, we have friends, but then we also have Ronan and Bane and Magorian who are just different. Like, just like with the wizarding community, there are different factions.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

We needed to see a fight. I was thinking along similar lines to Micah. Just blaming their presence there on Umbridge and hoping that they, the Centaurs believe Harry and Hermione.

[Eric]

Yeah. Or that they, they dislike her enough to just let the kids go.

[Laura]

Yeah. Actually, Ori in our Discord is saying something similar. They're saying. She could have just said Umbridge forced them. And that was my thinking. She could have just said, hey, look, we don't even have our wands. She forced us in here. She. She thinks that we know some secret about Dumbledore. We don't know anything about Dumbledore. She made us come in here. Maybe that would have fared a little better for them. But at the same time, it seems like Bane and Megorian are already decided that they're going to dispatch Harry and Hermione. Even one of them at one point says, give them the same treatment as her. You know, they've already already carted Umbridge away at this point. So the implication is that the same thing is about to happen to Harry and Hermione. But luckily for them, the problem that Hagrid left in the woods was unknowingly coming to the rescue. And he can even speak a little English and knows who Hagrid is, knows who Hermione is, and he's very clearly looking for some kind of caregiver. And I, low key felt some secondhand guilt as a reader here. I know it wasn't the trio's responsibility to take care of Grop, but it is still sad at the same time to see that he's been fending for himself and that he eventually broke free to look for the only human faces that he can associate with caretakers.

[Andrew]

Absolutely.

[Laura]

It was just kind of sad.

[Andrew]

It's heartbreaking.

[Eric]

It's a heck of an action sequence. But as the centaurs are attacking, watching Grop who. Hey, those English lessons are paying off. That's great. Be unable to remove the arrows that are being shot in his face that he's swiping at him. And the shafts of the arrows are breaking off, but the arrowheads are doing what arrowheads do and sinking in in further. So there's all this blood everywhere, which is actually a plot point for how the Thestrals show up later. But there's all this blood and you know, Grob, I just feel is. Is innocent here. Grop is a victim.

[Andrew]

Yeah, he was dragged into this. He didn't want this.

[Micah]

But Grob to the rescue though. And it's reminiscent of Prisoner of Azkaban when Buckbeak shows up to rescue Harry and Hermione from Werewolf Lupin. And in both cases, you have essentially Hagrid allies in Buckbeak and Grob show up.

[Laura]

I love that. That's a really great connection.

[Eric]

And something I've never noticed before in the writing is when Grob is swiping.

[Micah]

At this that we're making all these connections.

[Eric]

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's so easy to make the connection.

[Micah]

Reuse, repeat, recycle. Yeah.

[Eric]

Grob, when he's swiping at the centaurs, lifts them. It says the centaurs are lifted up off of their hooves. And I'm like, oh, wait, that's because a centaur is one person. It's the person. Because I expect to see them lifted off their horse, but then they're centaurs, so it's like. No, they're listed off. They're lifted off of their. Them. They're just being picked up by Groff. It's like, where normally you'd have a person fall off the horse, these guys are just going flying both. It's just unbelievable.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, Grop doesn't really have any regard for them because he's trying to reach for Harry.

[Eric]

Well, they're shooting at him. Yeah, yeah. They're causing this pain and commotion.

[Laura]

Well. And because of that, Grop gives the centaurs enough distraction for Harry and Hermione to get away, which is a good thing. Ultimately, the centaurs turn to start attacking Grop and they realize very quickly that they are outmatched. So they take off. And so do Harry and Hermione. And what I found curious about this is that Harry was very quick to round on Hermione and get on her case for this plan that she concocted, which, I mean, I think to her credit, she didn't have a lot of time to think she was having to improvise here. And improvised plans are never perfect, but sometimes they get the job done. And I was actually proud of her for effectively saying that to Harry. She reminds him that despite the quality of the plan, they weren't much good to Sirius without their wands, so there wasn't gonna be anything they'd be able to do. And I just feel kind of frustrated with Harry at this point because I'm like, at least Hermione did something. She got rid of Umbridge. Right. What are you doing?

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Is he mainly frustrated because now Grop is on the run? But that wasn't really Hermione's fault either.

[Laura]

No.

[Eric]

Right.

[Laura]

He's frustrated because he feels like they've wasted time. Time that they could have spent rescuing Sirius has been spent on this little adventure into the forest to get rid of Umbridge. But they kind of had to.

[Andrew]

But the irony here is Harry can criticize her for this, but he's rushing into his decision making around this part of the book as well, right? And that comes to bite him in the butt. So he might think he has room to talk now, but it's not going to be much longer before he realizes he should be eating his words, taking his own advice.

[Micah]

Hermione. Credit here for thinking on her feet. And you know, honestly, given everything that happened, the end result was still the best you could possibly ask for in that Umbridge is now out of the picture. And again, connecting the threads, both professors, Dada professors in Prisoner of Azkaban, Order of the Phoenix end up disappearing into the forbidden forest.

[Laura]

Oh man, there's another good one.

[Eric]

I'm starting to think that these are just copy and pasted. Wait a minute, read the chapter.

[Micah]

I guess at some point we can talk a little bit more about what happens to Umbridge, but obviously she's not going to be in we will see her once more situation here.

[Laura]

But yeah, there will definitely be time to talk about the state of Umbridge when we see her later in the hospital weighing at the end of the book. But before we have a little mini Dumbledore's army reunion in the forbidden forest, we do need to take one more quick break. So we'll do that and be right back. On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Eric]

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[Andrew]

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[Laura]

Well, Harry and Hermione, as they are crashing back out of the forest, are surprised to hear Ron's voice coming through the trees. And he is followed by.

[Micah]

Is he speaking Parseltongue?

[Eric]

No, that's later.

[Laura]

Yeah, that's in a couple of books, right, where he crazily learns how to speak Parseltongue because Harry speaks it in his sleep, apparently. But Ron is there with Ginny, Neville and Luna. And they're all in various states of, clearly having been in a fight. They're are some. There are a couple of black eyes, there are some fat lips. But ultimately all four of them are there. And the group pretty quickly begins squabbling about how they're gonna get to London and who is going. And this is really entertaining because those four, Ron. And we can kind of leave him out of this and really look more at Ginny, Neville and Luna. They have successfully just fought off the Inquisitorial Squad alongside Ron. And I'm pretty sure they were outnumbered to begin with. Isn't that right?

[Eric]

Certainly outsized, yeah, if nothing else.

[Andrew]

And those kids are tall and outpowered. I mean, the Inquisitorial Squad is going to be willing to do worse things to Ron and company rather than the other way around.

[Laura]

And there is this nice. Oh, go ahead, Eric.

[Eric]

Not only did they escape, but they escaped handily. Like Ginny used the. We get the first description of the bat bogey hex that they used on Malfoy where you're essentially attacked by your own bogeys that fly at you and cover your face. And I would not want to get on Ginny's bad side, let me tell you that. So they don't just escape, but they escape well. And I think this shows that they have what it takes to come along.

[Laura]

I think so, too. And I think Harry realizes pretty quickly that there's no arguing the point because he does surrender pretty quickly out of frustration. But there is another nice thread that we can connect here. And it's when Harry is, you know, faced with the possibility that Ginny, Neville and Luna want to come with them to the Department of Mysteries, he sits there and thinks, you know, of all the members of Dumbledore's army he couldn't think of three more people that he less wanted to come with him to do this. And it's funny because the same thing happens at the beginning of the book on the Hogwarts and Express when he's in the train compartment with Ginny, Neville and Luna and Cho walks in and he's immediately embarrassed and wishes that he were in there with cooler people.

[Eric]

So does he want to take Cho to London? Like, what's going on? What is. Who's he. Who's he thinking? We asked this question last time. Who would he rather like? Zacharias Smith? Come on. Now, These are the. These are the three. These are the kids you get.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And I mean, they're obviously very close to Harry, Ron and Hermione as well but, but even though Ginny brings up the point that Harry was already winning fights when he was her current age and that's why she should be able to come along I think for Ron's family sake that they should have been more forceful in telling Ginny no because that is a family member who recently almost lost another family member. And further Fred dies two books later. I think this is a final destination situation happening. Arthur didn't die so it's going to be somebody else but she didn't die.

[Micah]

Experience with Voldemort.

[Andrew]

That was a fair point as well.

[Eric]

And she does the bad bogey hacks. You know I really want to see a Death Eater get it.

[Andrew]

I, I really you look I like Dumbledore's army members going to fight with them but this is dangerous. I wouldn't let my sister come along. I wouldn't let Luna come along who I just met earlier. I mean it's, it, this is really dangerous for them and I think you could tell them no, I, I, I'm.

[Eric]

Not sure because here's my thing of it is like the they're up against Voldemort, right? Harry is going to Voldemort to or in London to stop him getting rid of Sirius. There's going to be a confrontation between Harry and Voldemort presumably Voldemort's not going to be alone like other people are going to come watch him kill Sirius Black or watch him attack Harry Potter. So you have to expect that there's going to be Death Eaters even if this isn't a trap, even if everything is going to happen exactly as it's going to happen. Harry should assume that there's going to be a ton of bad guys there in London. And so if Harry isn't immediately going we need to alert the Order of the Phoenix, then he's really looking down the barrel at him. Hermione and Ron going to London and facing off against a ton of Death Eaters themselves. That's not realistic. You need as many people as you can possibly get in a situation like this. So his reticence doesn't make any sense.

[Micah]

I mean in fairness, Harry has beaten Voldemort how many times at this point and how many Death Eaters were in the graveyard in Goblet of Fire?

[Eric]

Does he really want to push those odds?

[Laura]

Do you think it's a little pride?

[Andrew]

No, that's called getting cocky, Micah.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't put it Past here. I think you're right, though, because I think he's like, no matter what, we'll take care of it. It's like, that's not how that works.

[Micah]

In fairness to Harry, though, he's one of the only ones that has been in this situation or a situation like this before. However, I do agree, I think that the, the other members of Dumbledore's army here have earned the right. I mean, think about the situation that they were all just in with Neville, Ginny and Luna assisting Harry with trying to contact Sirius, right? Like, if they're good enough for that, why are they not good enough to go to London and try and rescue Sirius? Like, what. What makes them any less than Harry, Ron or Hermione?

[Eric]

I love the guilt trip that Neville gives Laura. You have, I think, in the doc is what Neville says. You want to talk about that?

[Laura]

Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, Neville kind of gets to rub Harry's face in this moment where he says it was all supposed to be about fighting. You know, who wasn't it? And this is the first chance we've had to do something real. Or was that all just a game or something?

[Eric]

Or was it all just a game or something? Do you play games, Harry?

[Micah]

Yeah, you know what I do.

[Eric]

You have an app on your phone called All Trails.

[Micah]

I say you, Harry, because. Whoa, whoa, here's the thing. Neville's parents, you can say.

[Eric]

You can't say, he can bleed.

[Micah]

He can bleep me out. Neville's parents were tortured. They're in St. Mungo's. They will never recover. Luna's father took a huge risk in publishing Harry's story in his paper. And Ginny, we just talked about, her entire family is at risk. And she was taken in the Chamber of Secrets several years ago. So if Harry thinks he's the only one with the dog in the fight, pun intended. There's my dad joke for you.

[Eric]

But serious. Yeah, I love it.

[Micah]

He's wrong. He's wrong. So, you know what? Stand down, Harry, and accept a little bit of help, yeah?

[Andrew]

Sit, Harry, sit. Good boy.

[Laura]

Go.

[Micah]

Good.

[Eric]

I think I like being a leader. You're supposed to, like, not be happy about everyone showing up to risk their lives for you. I don't know. That's Harry's own.

[Andrew]

He doesn't want to put his trusted friends in danger. His beloved friends in danger. I get where he's.

[Eric]

I don't think.

[Micah]

Yeah, I don't think he. Yeah, that's not what he. He's thinking. His friends.

[Eric]

That isn't what he's thinking here but, but if he, if he could take a step back it would be what he's thinking. It's just not what he's thinking here. But like that's. The collateral damage is not on his mind. What? His mind is getting to London as soon as possible but he's not being smart about it. And actually I find it shocking that six adult wizards. Well, okay, 16, 6, 15 year old wizards all don't say we need to get to London. We just saw you use Umbridge's fireplace for the FLU network. Why don't we take the FLU network to London now that her office is unguarded? I understand why Harry doesn't think about it but Neville and Ron and Luna were. And Ginny were all in there a lot longer. They had an unguarded fireplace that had just been used to contact London. None of them say we could just use Umbridge's fireplace.

[Andrew]

That's a good point.

[Laura]

That is a good question. I mean, is that. Are we willing to say that's maybe a bit of a plot hole?

[Eric]

It's a little bit, yeah. Or they can't go in there anymore because the Bat Bogeys have taken over and now they've run their own society and that's their office now. Maybe Ginny doesn't know her own strength.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And I think, I guess the author wanted to get the Thestrals really involved here by the end of the book and that's where they come in, getting them to London. Right. So yeah, you know, it's not a.

[Laura]

Great excuse, but it's not, I think where I get kind of annoyed when there are, when there's writing where it's just a little too convenient that things worked out exactly the way they did. Like nobody thought to use the fireplace and Harry and Hermione just so happened to be covered in Grop's blood. And guess what that attracts? That attack attracts Thestrals which we're all gonna ride to London even though half of us can't see them.

[Andrew]

Maybe one of them took some Felix Felicis and this all just came together. With some luck, maybe.

[Micah]

But another nice connecting the threads is using flying creatures to rescue Sirius.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah. One last rescue mission.

[Andrew]

Try one last time.

[Laura]

It doesn't work this time.

[Eric]

We need to ride Thestrals through the veil and get Sirius back from the other side. If anybody can travel through the veil, it's Thestrals.

[Andrew]

That'd be pretty cool actually. Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah. Actually, I wonder what would happen if you got A Thestral near the Vale.

[Eric]

You just go into like, the Upside Down.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Or maybe you can't push them in. Or they go in and they immediately get spat out.

[Laura]

It's like, no, you're already dead.

[Eric]

Everyone can see them after that.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah. Kind of like a Thieves Downfall type of thing.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Well, I thought a nice way to wrap this chapter, although it's a little bit of a darker note, is, you know, death is a full circle theme in this book in particular, but also in this series. So, of course, like I mentioned a couple minutes ago, the Thestrals are attracted to the scene since Harry and Hermione are covered in Grop's blood. And we wrap this chapter with Harry literally feeling more grateful and more affectionate towards the Thestrals than I think he would have ever imagined. I think there's one point where he says he thinks, how could he ever have thought that they were ugly? Because he's so thrilled to see them here. So it's very interesting to see him welcoming this, you know, manifestation of death, this omen of death, whatever you want to call it. He is welcoming it.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And welcoming this magical creature who, at the beginning of this book, Luna connects with him over. And Harry's like, well, what's wrong with me? If this girl can also see the Thestrals? Something's off with me. Just like something. I think something is off with her. And now he has a different view of the Thestrals and Luna.

[Micah]

Right.

[Laura]

I love that.

[Micah]

And if not for Luna in this moment, Harry wouldn't have a way to get to London.

[Laura]

No, because it's really Luna who suggests that they should ride the Thestrals.

[Andrew]

You're welcome. I have a good idea.

[Laura]

Well, we are going to get into our MVP Question of the week. So this week what we're asking is who is the most valuable DA member to join for this trip to the Ministry? Now, the special rule for this question is it doesn't necessarily need to be one of the six people who ends up attending in this chapter. If you think there is another. Another member of the DA who would have been advantageous to bring along on this little adventure, let's hear about it.

[Eric]

I want to answer last.

[Laura]

Okay.

[Andrew]

I think Hermione, because she. I forgot to hit the switch. She might have read something in her many studies that could prepare her for this moment. Going into the depths of the Ministry and getting where they need to go. I also think that after their trip to the Ministry, she could look back on it and be like, oh, what about this department? What about that department? I just imagine her having a very good memory despite the chaos of everything that they see within and maybe they can use that all for the future. So I think she's just a good, analytical, resourceful member to bring along.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Micah]

I would actually take Zachariah Smith because I think he would annoy the hell out of everybody. On the Death Eater side he probably would be a quick Avada Kedavra but I think he could buy them a little bit of time.

[Andrew]

He'd kill him in annoyance.

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah. But maybe that's enough for Harry to get away. Right?

[Eric]

Yeah, right. God, I'd love to hear see like Lucius Malfoy or Voldemort stop whatever they're doing and be like, don't you just want to thwap him? Does anybody else. Is that just me? You'd be like yeah, yeah, we all do.

[Laura]

I like how Zachariah Smith is basically the red shirt. We were making red shirt jokes before we started recording this episode. So the Star Trek jokes are coming full circle now. I think for me, I gotta say, Jenny, I know that she's in the original group but I honestly think she's probably the most powerful of the Dumbledore's army members. I don't think a lot of people understand how powerful she is yet and I think she really gets to showcase that over the next couple of chapters. But when you think about who was getting the most praise for overcoming the Inquisitorial squad.

[Eric]

Yeah, it's Ginny.

[Laura]

Right. I think she's the most prepared.

[Eric]

I'm heartened to have you give her that credit, Laura.

[Laura]

See, I'll give Ginny her flowers.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but, but again, how terrifying the bat bogey hex sounds.

[Laura]

Oh, and who do you think, Eric.

[Eric]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the best Dada member that should be going with them to London is Marietta Edgecomb. Oh. Her mother works at the Ministry, of course.

[Andrew]

Of course.

[Laura]

Oh, so should they have kidnapped her?

[Eric]

They, I mean they don't have any.

[Micah]

Problem getting in anyway.

[Andrew]

Hermione can be like never mind about what I did to you.

[Eric]

Is she up in the hospital wing? Well, Hermione can offer to reverse it, first of all, presuming she can, which that's the whole other can of worms, who knows? They. If Marietta is in the hospital wing. I'm not saying she is. Maybe her parents took her away or whatever. I think maybe we read but if say that she was still in the hospital wing, the book were in a little bit differently. They go up to her. They say, you owe us one. Help us get to the ministry, Tell us what we need to know about it. And, you know, she's been there, probably on the visitor side of things, but she could get them in, and it would represent some darn character growth for these boys who still see her as, you know, some sneak and some traitor. And to realize that everyone has some wrongs in their column some days, and she could have redeemed herself in this book. It would have been great.

[Andrew]

I like it.

[Eric]

Thank you.

[Laura]

All right, well, we are going to get into our links line now. Mugglecast listeners who are members of our [e-mail] mugglecast have answered this week's question. Hermione obviously chose the wrong thing to say to the centaurs explaining why they led Umbridge into the forest. What should she have said instead? With the caveat that we wanted wrong answers only.

[Andrew]

These were hard to read, y'.

[Laura]

All.

[Andrew]

They're so good, but so bad. Nemesha said, can we ride you?

[Laura]

I. I think they would have carted them straight off to wherever they took umbrage.

[Eric]

They would have killed them on the spot.

[Laura]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Eric]

Michael says this lady said she can run faster than a centaur.

[Laura]

That's actually right.

[Andrew]

That would have been a good strategy.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Eric]

The arrogance.

[Andrew]

You were brought into this forest because she wanted to race you, and we were the ones who knew how to find you, so she's so glad you're here. Yeah.

[Eric]

Oh, my God.

[Micah]

Lloyd said. She said, Sagittarius is the most overrated star sign. Prove her wrong.

[Laura]

Oh, that's good. As a Sagittarius, I approve of this.

[Eric]

Well, and I love. They're speaking to her in their language. Right? The stars.

[Laura]

B says, and I quote, do you have a moment to speak about our Lord and savior, Cornelius Fudge?

[Andrew]

Rachel said, we'll just giddy up out of the forest now.

[Laura]

Oh, my God. Yep. Instant death. Instant death.

[Micah]

Oh.

[Eric]

Oh, my God. John says, which one of you is the favorite in the Kentucky Derby? Oof. Or if you're British as they are, which one of you is the favorite in the Grand National?

[Laura]

Oh, man. Yeah. No, actually, I think this one would be, like, if I had to stack rank these to say which answer is most likely to get them killed. I think it's this one. At least so far. Yeah, we haven't gotten through the last two.

[Micah]

Cassandra wrote in to say, nice horsey. I've got a Big Apple here. If you'll give us a ride back to school.

[Eric]

Oh, dead on the spot.

[Laura]

Dead, dead for sure. And Zachary rounds us out here saying we gave her Veritasium and her deepest inner secret was to go to the famed Pink Pony Club. We told her you lot would escort her there by horseback. Well, she gets escorted somewhere. I don't know that we ever find out where.

[Eric]

Maybe the centaurs are actually really into Chapel Roan at the moment. Maybe they'll appreciate the reference.

[Laura]

Maybe.

[Andrew]

Well, the links line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show. And those responses were so good. Our audience is so clever. Our hats are off to you, truly. We ask a new question every week, so we invite you to become a member of our lovely patreon [e-mail] mugglecast. You can pledge for as little as $5 a month. If you have feedback about today's discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to mugglecastmail.com and next week we'll discuss Chapter 34, the Department of Mysteries. If you're looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and what the Hype for more pop culture and real world talk. And now it's time for Quizzage.

[Eric]

This week's question was in this chapter, Umbridge placed the stealth sensor spells around her office door. Founded by Edward Callahan over 150 years ago, the company which currently holds at least 15% of the market share for home security systems, is called a. Wow, that's such a long lead up to that question that the music has stopped. Sorry, everybody. American Wait, I didn't even say that. ADT holds 15% of the market share for security systems. What does ADT stand for? The correct answer is American District Telegraph. That's how old the first security systems were, back when Telegraphs were operating. Pretty cool history. 63% of people who got the correct answer said they didn't look that up, which is actually more than I was expecting. And this week's winners were submitted by begging for aquisi. Live. Bony Pony. Bort, stop. Voldemort, stop. It's a Telegraph joke, Clara. Everybody's got something to hide except me and my inquisitorial squad. Or so people think. Gwen Weasley. I am a nerd. I'm tired of summer and dreaming of Halloween at Hogwarts. Not me, not Hermione. You panic at the Ministry, Pease was a knight who said knee pov Fudge in order. Voldemort? Who's Voldemort? I don't know no Voldemort. Sirius Black Hills, that one super annoying Korok, the old man from scene 24 and Umbridge is an umm. Bitch thank you to everyone for submitting and playing Quizzic as always. Here is next week's Quizzic question based on this week's chapter title. Psychologically, human beings respond to threats in one of four ways, all starting with the letter F. Two of them are fight and flight. What are the other two F words? Please send your f words to us on the Quizzic form on the Mugglecast website. We will accept multiple F word answers to us over on mugglecast.com quizzitch or if you happen to be on our website, maybe you're checking out transcripts or the Must Listens page. Click on Quizzic from the main Nav bar.

[Andrew]

Don't Forget to visit patreon.com mugglecast to support us. Also visit mugglecast.com to find all the information you need about the show. Leave us a review in your favorite podcast app and tell a fellow Muggle about the show. Thanks everyone for listening. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

Bye everyone.

[Micah]

By.

[Andrew]

Sam.