Hotwarts (OOTP Chapter 29, 'Career Advice')

Summary

MuggleCast: The Harry Potter Re-Read Podcast – Episode Summary: "Hotwarts (OOTP Chapter 29, 'Career Advice')"

Release Date: June 17, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of MuggleCast, hosts Andrew, Eric, Micah, and Laura delve deep into Chapter 29 of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, titled "Career Advice". Alongside their insightful chapter-by-chapter analysis, the hosts keep listeners informed about the latest casting news for the upcoming Harry Potter TV series on MAX.

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1. Casting News for the Harry Potter TV Series

Andrew kicks off the episode with exciting updates on the casting selections for the Harry Potter TV adaptation. The hosts announce nine new cast members, enhancing beloved characters and introducing fresh faces to the Wizarding World.

• Molly Weasley: Played by BAFTA winner Katherine Parkinson.
• Draco and Lucius Malfoy: Portrayed by Lox Pratt and Johnny Flynn, respectively.
• Seamus Finnegan: Cast with Leo Lee.
• Parvati Patil and Lavender Brown: Played by Elisa Leone and Sienna Moussa.
• Petunia Dursley: Brought to life by Bel Pali.
• Vernon Dursley: Played by BAFTA winner Daniel Rigby.
• Cornelius Fudge: Portrayed by Bertie Carville.

Notable Quote:

Andrew [02:38]: "The Dursleys look hot. I didn't realize they were going to get a glow up in this TV show."

Discussion Highlights:

• Laura expresses surprise over the enhanced appearance of the Dursley family, commenting on their potential "glow up."
• Micah engages playfully, questioning if Laura wants to "spend a summer with them," to which Laura hesitates, pondering the actors' makeup and portrayal.
• Eric raises concerns about headshot consistency and the overall visual portrayal of the characters.
• The hosts discuss 72% of listeners feeling that the actors cast as Vernon and Petunia Dursley are "too attractive," highlighting a shift from their original depictions.

Notable Quote:

Andrew [03:09]: "That’s the HBO-ized version of Harry Potter. Okay. That’s what I’m seeing. Everybody on Game of Thrones is kind of hot too, right?"

2. Filming Continuity and Production Challenges

The conversation transitions to production strategies, specifically the possibility of filming the first two books back-to-back to account for the characters' aging. The hosts draw parallels to other series like Stranger Things, emphasizing the challenges actors face as time between episodes causes their characters to age significantly on screen.

Notable Quote:

Andrew [05:32]: "When did Fudge become Minister of Magic? Was he Minister of Magic when Harry was a newborn? When Lily James died?"

Key Points:

• Eric suggests that the casting of older characters early on might indicate simultaneous filming of multiple books.
• Laura reflects on the delays in the original movies and the potential for similar issues in the TV series.
• The hosts emphasize the importance of maintaining character continuity, especially for beloved young actors.

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3. Deep Dive into Chapter 29: "Career Advice"

The heart of the episode focuses on a comprehensive analysis of Chapter 29, where Harry grapples with revelations about his father and confronts his future career aspirations.

A. Harry's Revelation and Emotional Turmoil

Harry discovers Snape's worst memory, witnessing his father's less-than-heroic actions. This moment shatters Harry's idealized image of James Potter, leading to intense internal conflict.

Notable Quotes:

Eric [11:18]: "Harry doesn’t really have a whole lot to work with when it comes to James. So, to go from that to seeing his father at his worst... that’s a hard pill to swallow."

Laura [13:51]: "Well, and it also proves Snape right. Snape’s been crap ating James for years... that’s just a really bitter pill to swallow."

Discussion Highlights:

• The hosts explore how this revelation affects Harry's perception of his father, emphasizing the theme that even heroes have flaws.
• Micah notes the impact of witnessing James's behavior firsthand, contrasting it with the fragmented views Harry had from others.
• The conversation touches on Snape's consistent antagonism toward Harry and how this event exacerbates their strained relationship.

B. Isolation and the Struggle to Seek Help

Harry's emotional state leads to isolation, as he struggles to process the newfound information about his father without adequate support from friends or mentors.

Notable Quote:

Andrew [22:20]: "But yeah, but I don’t think Harry really knows how to ask for help. It’s not something the Dursleys would have taught him."

Key Points:

• Laura discusses Harry's difficulty in sharing his feelings with Ron and Hermione, highlighting his learned isolation.
• The hosts debate whether reaching out to other adults like McGonagall or even Snape would have been beneficial, considering Snape's history.
• The conversation emphasizes the importance of support systems during emotional crises, drawing parallels to real-life experiences.

C. Snape's Treatment of Harry Post-Memory

Following the memory incident, Snape's demeanor towards Harry remains harsh, further complicating Harry's academic and emotional struggles.

Notable Quote:

Micah [35:45]: "Harry is dreading Potions. And then it turns out Snape’s just ignoring him."

Discussion Highlights:

• The hosts analyze Snape's punitive actions in Potions class, interpreting them as attempts to undermine Harry academically.
• Andrew reflects on the inherent power dynamics between students and teachers, considering the ethical implications of Snape's behavior.
• The conversation touches on the broader consequences of Snape's actions, including the potential endangerment of others within the narrative.

D. Career Advice Session with McGonagall

Harry engages in a career consultation with McGonagall, which is notably disrupted by Dolores Umbridge's interference. This scene marks a pivotal moment in Harry's consideration of his future beyond battling Voldemort.

Notable Quotes:

Laura [44:34]: "I really like that this happens. And I know we were scheduled to talk about this a little later, but... when you’re a teen... a session with your head of house about your future plans could help deal with that."

Micah [43:43]: "She questions Umbridge’s competency as a teacher. Yeah, so there are some really good zingers in there."

Key Points:

• Andrew appreciates the opportunity to explore Harry's career aspirations, noting it as a sign of his character's maturation.
• The hosts discuss the unrealistic pressure placed on teenagers regarding career decisions, both within the wizarding world and in real life.
• Laura brings up the limited view Harry has on career options, criticizing his inclination towards becoming an Auror as being too narrow.

E. Support from Fred and George Weasley

During this chapter, Fred and George provide crucial support by creating distractions, allowing Harry some respite and emotional catharsis.

Notable Quote:

Micah [67:57]: "So Fred and George distracted Umbridge allowed Harry to get some flu time with Sirius and Remus."

Discussion Highlights:

• The hosts commend Fred and George's strategic thinking and loyalty, highlighting their role in supporting Harry during his tumultuous time.
• Andrew raises questions about the plausibility of Fred and George's actions within the Ministry's stringent regulations, suggesting potential plot holes.
• Laura and Eric express enthusiasm for the creative ways the Weasley twins aid Harry, emphasizing their importance in his support network.

---

4. Real-Life Connections: Career Conversations

Shifting gears, the hosts engage in a reflective discussion about their personal experiences with career counseling during their school years, drawing parallels to Harry's scenario.

Notable Quote:

Laura [51:34]: "I think as a kid that age, you're learning who you are and you're trying on a lot of different hats."

Key Points:

• Eric shares his experience with career assessments in school, likening it to Harry's forced career considerations.
• Micah and Laura discuss the societal pressures placed on teenagers to make early career decisions, critiquing the lack of flexibility and genuine support.
• The hosts highlight the benefits of open-ended career guidance, advocating for exploration rather than rigid pathways.

---

5. Audience Participation and Insights

Engaging with their Patreon community, the hosts read and react to listener comments and questions. They address various perspectives on McGonagall's interactions with Umbridge and share humorous takes on their listeners' imaginative thoughts.

Notable Quotes:

Caleb [72:00]: "Oh, how I long to go into my cat form and shred a beep."

Carly [72:41]: "Given her love for Quidditch, McGonagall is probably envisioning using Umbridge's head as a quaffle."

Highlights:

• The hosts appreciate their listeners' creative and humorous engagement, fostering a sense of community.
• They incorporate these interactions into their analysis, adding depth and variety to the discussion.

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6. Quiz Segment: Quizzage

The episode features a fun and engaging quiz segment, challenging listeners' knowledge of Harry Potter lore.

Current Quiz Question:

What band had a single song at the top of the UK music charts for every week of May 1976, the month that the Marauders set their AL exams?

Options: A) Abba
B) Billy Joel
C) Aerosmith
D) David Bowie

Answer Revealed:

A) Abba

Notable Quote:

Micah [74:52]: "The correct answer was Abba."

Discussion:

• Hosts celebrate the correct answers and engage in playful banter about the quiz participants.
• They hint at upcoming quiz questions, encouraging continued listener participation.

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Conclusion

Wrapping up the episode, the hosts remind listeners to support the podcast through Patreon and share their thoughts via email. They tease an in-depth discussion of Chapter 30: "Grop" in the next episode, promising more insights and engaging content.

Final Quote:

Andrew [76:32]: "Thanks everyone for listening. Don't forget to visit patreon.com/mugglecast to support us."

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Key Takeaways:

• Casting Enhancements: The upcoming TV series introduces fresh talent, reimagining key characters with notable actors.
• Emotional Depth: Chapter 29 explores Harry's fragmented understanding of his father, highlighting themes of isolation and the complexities of heroism.
• Career Reflections: The discussion draws parallels between Hogwarts' career guidance and real-life challenges faced by teenagers.
• Community Engagement: Listener interactions and quizzes enrich the podcast experience, fostering a vibrant fan community.

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For more detailed discussions and updates, be sure to follow MuggleCast on your favorite podcast platform and join their Patreon community for exclusive content.

Transcript

[Laura]

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[Eric]

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[Laura]

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[Laura]

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[Micah]

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[Kaley Cuoco]

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[Laura]

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[Eric]

Oh, sorry.

[Kaley Cuoco]

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[Laura]

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[Andrew]

Welcome to Mugglecast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

And we are your Harry Potter friends. Talking about the books, the movies and the upcoming TV show. And we have some news on that this week. So make sure you follow us in your favorite podcast app and that way you'll never miss an episode. And after we talk about the latest Harry Potter TV casting news, get ready to work through your daddy issues because we're discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 29 career advice. So, yeah, we got a lot of casting announcements. We got nine new ones. Molly Weasley will be played by BAFTA winner Katherine Parkinson, while Draco and Lucius Malfoy will be played by Lox Pratt and Johnny Flynn, respectively. Leo early will be playing Seamus Finnegan. Elisa Leone will be playing Parvati Patil. Sienna Moussa will play Parvati's best friend, Lavender Brown Bel Pali has been cast as Petunia. And BAFTA winner Daniel Rigby will play Vernon Dursley. And finally, Bertie Carville will play Cornelius Fudge. So nine new ones. Any thoughts on these nine?

[Laura]

The Dursleys look hot. I didn't realize they were going to get a glow up in this TV show.

[Micah]

Laura, do you want to spend a summer with them?

[Laura]

Ooh, I don't know with them or with how they're going to be made up to be in the show.

[Eric]

Yeah, that's what remains to be seen is. Is how they look as their character. But maybe it's headshots in general. I don't know. The last time I was looking at like actor headshots from 2025, but yeah, everyone looks real crisp.

[Andrew]

Yeah, there's no real such thing as a bad headshot to your point, Eric. Right. You got to look slick and sleek and all cleaned up for your headshots. That said said, we did also hear this on social media a little bit that the actors portraying Vernon Petunia are too attractive. And we posted a poll on social media and said, do you agree with this? And actually, 72% of our listeners did feel that they are too attractive for Vernon Petunia Dursley. I say a lot of people are saying out there on the Internet, what's the point of the series? It's no different than the movies. Well, the difference with this series is you're going to want to Vernon Dursley. That's the big difference. So get used to it, people.

[Micah]

You cannot say that word.

[Andrew]

I'm going to censor it.

[Eric]

No, I'm sorry.

[Micah]

What does this say about.

[Laura]

Sorry. You can do one with Vernon Dursley. I didn't hear you over the beep, Andrew.

[Eric]

And let's not forget Vernon's company sells drills.

[Andrew]

It's not like Fiona Shaw and the late Richard Griffiths. Richard Griffiths. Thank you. Were unattractive folk. It's if you. This is the HBO ized version of Harry Potter. Okay. That's what I'm seeing. Everybody on Game of Thrones is kind of hot too, right? Every HBO show has hot people. That's how it works.

[Eric]

Game of Thrones. If I.

[Micah]

Well, with Game of Thrones, there was a high likelihood that they were going to be taking off their clothes at some point too. I don't think that's the case for Harry Potter, as far as I'm aware.

[Andrew]

No.

[Micah]

At least not till Deathly Hallows. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Or when does Harry get into the bath? That was Goblet of Fire.

[Micah]

Goblet of Fire. But the scene that comes out of the locket for Ron with Harry and Hermione is not until Deathly Hallows. I did have a question, though, and I might just be misremembering, but is Cornelius Fudge in Sorcerer's Stone?

[Eric]

Neither is Lucius Malfoy. And yet we got castings.

[Andrew]

Those are very interesting observations.

[Laura]

It makes me wonder how they're doing shooting. Yeah, I was thinking that, Micah, like, are they maybe doing some consecutive shooting?

[Eric]

Either consecutive shooting or they've found ways to, as we had suggested, that they would do, I think, from the start of this announcement of the show, widen the world. Yeah, we're going to get to see Lucius Malfoy putting gold in Fudge's pocket well before he has a big moment in the books.

[Andrew]

When did Fudge become Minister of Magic? Was he Minister of Magic when Harry was a newborn? When Lillian James died? Because I'm wondering maybe that's where we could potentially see him.

[Eric]

Yeah, could be.

[Laura]

I don't think he was minister at that point. I don't know who was.

[Eric]

I think it was recent, within the last five years when.

[Andrew]

So he would.

[Micah]

Fudge became Minister.

[Andrew]

Okay, so. Well, I think this basically confirms then that they're gonna film at least the first two books back to back. And the reason they would want to do this is because these kids are gonna be growing up fast. They don't wanna waste too much time. So you would think that they film at least the first two books and then the kids look like they're aging a little slower than they actually are.

[Laura]

Yeah, well. And I think, especially with the movies, we know that movies one and two were shot pretty. There was a big break between movie two and movie three, and then a big break between four or three and four and so on and so forth. So it's just by the time these movies finished, these kids were like, what, all pushing 2019. And I mean, with a TV show, for how much longer? I think the production Runway is on something like that. There is a really big risk that if they don't shoot things carefully, these kids are going to be like 30 by the time it's done.

[Andrew]

You know, this is kind of what we've been doing.

[Eric]

Stranger Things kids.

[Andrew]

That's what I was just going to say. Yeah. You look at the kids in Stranger Things Season 1, they basically look like toddlers. And then you look at seasons four and the upcoming season five, and it's like, oh, my God, they're adults. What happened? Only, I mean, how much time passes across that series, it can't be that much time.

[Eric]

No, no, no, it's not at all. But yeah, like they took three years to release seasons, right? It's wild.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And that's unfortunately what happens in the world of streaming. They take their darn time. So those are the latest casting announcements. Filming begins this summer, so stick with Mugglecast for continuing Harry Potter TV show coverage. If you love Mugglecast and want to help us keep the show running as smoothly as a Weasley twins escape hogwarts from, visit patreon.com mugglecast and pledge today. You'll get instant access to two bonus Mugglecast episodes every month. You'll also get ad free episodes, a new physical gift every year, and a lot more. Also right now on our Patreon, you can find the Never Sever Us audiobook. This is my Dirty Cursed Child fan fiction. Patrons have access to it as part of their membership, but non patrons can make a one time purchase to listen or read it. And the reason I bring it up now is because it is Pride month and because it is a gay fan fiction, 50% of proceeds from your purchase will benefit the Trevor Project, which is a hotline for LGBTQ youth. If you're looking for other ways to support us, you can visit mugglecastmerch.com to buy official gear. Also, we would appreciate a review in your favorite podcast app and please tell a friend about the show. Lastly, you can visit mugglecast.com for quick access to all this information and lots more like our contact form. Now it's time for chapter by chapter and we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 29, Career Advice.

[Eric]

And we last talked about this lovely chapter on Mugglecast 466 which was titled Weasley's Victorious. And that was for 5-19-2020. Let's listen to a little clip from there. Three times should do a living.

[Andrew]

Good luck.

[Micah]

What the.

[Eric]

Episode 466.

[Micah]

He has no backup plan or security in place, which I think is really just hasty decision making on his part. He doesn't even employ the help of Ron or Hermione or anybody in this plan. Like there's nobody standing outside of the office to make sure that Filch or Umbridge or anybody comes in. And on top of it, he doesn't lock the door or doesn't close it. Like Filch comes in and he's like, oh, she left it open. Like Harry, what are you doing?

[Laura]

Yeah, this was not well thought through.

[Micah]

Future or right there?

[Laura]

Definitely future.

[Micah]

Oh boy.

[Eric]

Mysterious thing time.

[Andrew]

Maiko's fired up.

[Eric]

Yeah. This reminds me of our discussion about Arthur Weasley and Scout the route from this read through but going way back to just what is Harry doing?

[Micah]

Yeah, what is Harry doing? That's a great question and great episode last week by the way with Julian.

[Andrew]

Oh yeah, it was fun. Yeah.

[Eric]

One of these days we've got to get Micah and Julian.

[Micah]

Well, we're just going to do a muggle cast, the two of us to make up for the fact that the last two times he's been on, I haven't been able to be there. But yeah, he did a great job. So we are going to start this chapter talking about Harry's state of mind because he is very much reeling from what he learned about his father. In Snape's worst memory, he feels betrayed and disillusioned after witnessing James's behavior. So I wanted to ask, what do we think this reveals about Harry's perception of James? Is it one of those situations where even our heroes have flaws? I would tend to think yes. But I know there's a lot here where we can talk about that. Harry doesn't really have a whole lot to work with right when it comes to James. So there's only so much that he's learned up into this point and certainly the experience that he has inside of the Pensieve is just absolutely devastating to him.

[Eric]

And he had to witness it so close up too. You know, it's, it's not like somebody takes Harry aside and he's like, you know, your dad wasn't all great and a couple of times he provoked people without like Harry had to witness it and have sort of his mind's eye view of his dad just shattered. I think, I think he's just still in shock about it all. And he, you know, the, the chapter mentions that James and Sirius were once compared to the Weasley twins, which is like very charitable because the Weasley twins are generally good natured and this just doesn't mesh with anything Harry has come to expect and it eats away at him to the point where he just actually regrets looking like James. That somebody would do this to another person, that his dad would do this to Snape. And people always tell him how much he looked like James and his heart always used to swell at this news and now he's like, oh my God, I gotta change my hair or something. I was like, gotta do something.

[Andrew]

Yeah, well, and Harry has had this blank slate to paint his own vision of James on and he's heard a thing or two over the years from various adults. He's heard something from McGonagall, a thing or two from Sirius and Hagrid. Just kind of little bits and pieces. And of course when you. I would imagine that if you didn't know your father as you were growing up you were trying to paint as charitable an image as possible. And Harry really has had no reason to be deeply concerned about his parents. He can see, he can look in the mirror and see that he's a good guy. His friends think he's a good guy. Dumbledore thinks he's. All kinds of people think he's a good guy. He has no reason to think James wouldn't have been a good guy either. So to go from that to seeing his father at his worst and bullying his now teacher Snape, that's a hard pill to swallow and process like Harry would need a lot of time, I think anybody would need a lot of time to process this information after, you know, years of thinking differently of his father.

[Micah]

I think that's key though, what you said, because he's seeing him. This is the first time he's actually seeing him. Yes, he's gotten images in the mirror of Erised or the photo of the Order of the Phoenix but the photo.

[Eric]

Album Hagrid gave him at the end.

[Micah]

Of the day, the photo album that Hagrid gives him. But this is him actually seeing James in action. And yes, it's that of the worst possible moments but definitely leaves a bad taste in his mouth.

[Laura]

Well, and it also proves Snape right. Snape's been craptoping James for years and Harry has been able to write everything that Snape has set off because Snape is clearly a horrible human in Harry's eyes. So he's thinking, oh, he's probably just jealous of my dad. Why would my dad do that? And not only is he getting to see for the first time his dad in action, it's his dad in action doing the thing that Snape always said he did. That's a really bitter pill to swallow. Especially when at the end of the chapter last week, Harry turns around and Snape, the current present day version of Snape, is in the memory with him. That's horrifying. Can you imagine how jarring that is?

[Micah]

Just more broadly, I think we all have this tendency to put parents or authority figures on pedestals only to come to the realization that they themselves are human and just like us, flawed. And I thought it's a nice setup to Dumbledore's backstory that we get a little bit later on in the series. Because if James was on a pedestal that was, let's say, this high. Dumbledore is on a pedestal that's way up here and. And talk about falling down a few pegs.

[Eric]

Well, I think that the very interesting thing is, like, I guess if you had said to Harry, oh, you know, James wasn't perfect, Harry would be like, okay, James wasn't perfect. He never expects to, like, be confronted or have to confront exactly where James's failures were. And yeah, I think it was just the visceral way in which he saw them that really is just caused. He's listless. He has no real driving force forward. Because if Snape was right about this, you guys, what else has Snape been right about all these years?

[Laura]

It's like, that's like the worst question.

[Eric]

You ever have to ask is, like, oh, man.

[Micah]

Well, he's not right that Harry's bad at Potions because Harry disproves that a little bit later on in this chapter.

[Eric]

Well, sort of, yeah, he is right that Harry doesn't do the basemost level of, like, studying or work, though, at least in other subjects.

[Micah]

Now, I thought it could be fun to compare and contrast how James, for the brief time that he's with us, seems to mature and grow out of this type of behavior, whereas Snape remains an immature, bitter human being. And all we have to do is look a little bit further into this chapter with how he treats Harry. What's everyone's thoughts on that?

[Eric]

Yeah, this is really difficult because I think that in Snape, source memory, it's the James show, right? It's the James and Sirius show, mostly James. James takes the lead, gets Snape upside down, is the one that's being called out by Lily and making all the students laugh. The best thing that that character can do to be redeemed is sacrifice themselves for evil. And James. We see James through either. I think it's the Boggart Dementor scenes in book three, or at some point, we hear James say to Lily, take Harry and go. And we know that James stood his ground and bought Lily and Harry some time on the night when they were murdered. So there's some level of selflessness. Well, there's a lot. A huge level of self. It shows that James really, literally put his own ego aside and tried to protect those that he loved. So here you see he's capable of loving something other than himself and his silly, messed up hair. Years. A few short years after Snape swore's memory took place.

[Andrew]

Yeah, Harry is right about one thing when it comes to James and Snape, and it's that Snape has always been out there and a bitch.

[Eric]

Oddball.

[Andrew]

Let's say an oddball. Oh, yeah.

[Eric]

It's a word that I think.

[Andrew]

Yeah, he's odd, but he's also mean. And that has never changed about him, at least. Even though Harry's having a hard time accepting this now. James did change. James did mature. And we also see hints of this later in this chapter when Harry risks kind of everything to talk to Sirius and Lupin. And Sirius and Lupin are like, I'm not proud of what we did at that time. Would Snape say the same thing about actions he did when he was a student at Hogwarts? I'm not sure that he would.

[Eric]

This, that's a really interesting.

[Micah]

Raises an interesting question for me though too, because one of the reasons why we could point to James changing the way that he did is Lily. Would Snape have changed if Lily showed him the same affection that she showed James? Well.

[Eric]

And are we all on the same page that the reason that that is Snape's worst memory is because of his gut reaction to call Lily a mudblood, thus cementing the decline of their relationship?

[Laura]

Yeah, I think it's intended to be another misdirect about the Snape and Lily relationship. We're intended to believe it's his worst memory because of James bullying him and the manner in which he does that. And obviously that is traumatic. And I think it deserves a ranking of, like, in your worst memories. It is one of Snape's worst memories. But we know the amount of regret that Snape carries for what ultimately happens to Lily and how he inadvertently contributes to that. So it can all be traced back to this moment. I mean, this is, I think, the final nail in the coffin for Snape and Lily's friendship.

[Eric]

Pretty well hidden little detail there.

[Andrew]

But it is a major flaw of Snape that his future happiness was tied to Lily. I mean, the dude. We say it a lot on the show, normally about the kids, but Snape needs to go to therapy. Snape needs to move on already. Snape needs to break out of his shell and loosen up a little bit.

[Eric]

There's gotta be like, potions, conventions you can go to. I mean, he's the half Blood Prince. There's no potion. He can't make potion.

[Laura]

Snape died when Lily died. Honestly, that's a heck of a thing.

[Eric]

That means a. That means a ghost saved the world.

[Laura]

Well, I mean metaphorically, of course.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Like I think he would be happier if he had also died and I.

[Micah]

Would think under normal circumstances having witnessed something like this that the memory would have affected Harry's feelings towards Snape in if Snape wasn't a total asshat.

[Eric]

The interesting thing about this is I think that it's Snape's continued awful behavior that gets Harry to snap out of that one little aspect of feeling really, really bad because Snape is horrible during Potions this time. And it's like, you know, if Snape had just given Harry a little bit of distance I think Harry would have just continued to feel guilty, apologetic and it might have led to like, I don't know, better grades or something more effort in Potions Kinder. Something, something. Who knows.

[Micah]

Yeah. Or maybe not complete alienation by the end of this book which leads to a lot of other things happening.

[Eric]

Sure does.

[Micah]

The one thing that Harry doesn't do that he normally does quite often is share the contents of the memory with Ron and Hermione. I feel like that's a big misstep on his part.

[Eric]

I would agree with this. I think that. And it's not entirely clear why Harry feels like this is his cross to bear only you know, his sour mood is very visible to everyone that's watching him. And I feel like maybe it's just because nobody feels the way toward Lily and James that Harry has all of his life. Like they're. They're who he sees in the mirror of Erised. They're his parents. And. And maybe, I don't know. Like I think this chapter wants to show that Hermione's doing all sorts of other stuff like with the timetables for the studying and Ron's the crushing weight of exams but he just doesn't. Crushing weights take the time to. This is what friends are for. And. And he's not letting them help him.

[Laura]

But yeah, but I don't think Harry really knows how to ask for help. It's not something the Dursleys would have taught him.

[Eric]

That's true.

[Andrew]

What about the Hot Dursleys? Would they have taught him this?

[Eric]

Hey, maybe the Hot Dursleys have their own hotline.

[Laura]

The new and improved Dursleys here only on HBO Max. But yeah, I mean I think that. Man, where was I going to go with that point?

[Micah]

I think that you're too distracted by the Dursley.

[Laura]

I know, they're just. They're so hot.

[Micah]

I can't wait for Dudley.

[Laura]

Six Pack can't restrain myself. But yeah, I mean, I think that Harry. One of the major themes of this book that we've touched on before, maybe not so much in recent episodes, but definitely the beginning of the book is isolation and how isolated Harry feels because he's very alone in a lot of the experiences that he's having. So who could he go confide in about what he saw in Snape's Pensieve? Who would even remotely begin to be able to relate to him?

[Andrew]

Yeah. So kind of on a related note, I'm not upset that he didn't approach Ron and Hermione about this, but why not approach McGonagall or even try to talk to Snape again and approach Snape and open with, I'm mad at my father after learning about what he did to you. And yes, I know we got to remember he's a child, but if, if I were him, you know, in hindsight, maybe I would wish that I approached it this way because this whole idea of going to Sirius and breaking into Umbridge's office is incredibly risky. I was stressed reading that break in and reading his chat with Lupin and Sirius because I was just waiting for Umbridge to pull him out of the fire and murder him.

[Eric]

Well, I think the real problem is that Harry doesn't know. It's not. It's true that he doesn't know how to ask for help. He also just doesn't know what he needs. It's really only until he's prompted by Ginny, who's noticed him being down, that he's like, I think I need to talk to Sirius. Sirius is his only parental figure. And that's kind of what I think it's dawning on him. He needs to help console him about his parent.

[Micah]

Yeah. And for Harry, though, I do think there would have been some type of. Well, Hermione in this chapter throughout, is just so adamant about him not going and doing this. And I do feel she probably would have provided some rational thought around James's behavior or what Harry saw in the memory that maybe would have calmed him down a little bit. And I could see Ron jumping in here, too. Ron has some nuggets of wisdom from time to time.

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah. They give them all to Hermione in the movies, though, so hopefully they'll change that in the show.

[Micah]

Yeah, they better change that in the show.

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[Laura]

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[Micah]

Now, one thing I wanted to quickly touch on, because you would think that in looking at this particular memory that Harry would be seeing it from Snape's perspective. But we were told by the author in an interview back in 2005 that memories are unbiased, which when viewed in the pensive. Oh, okay. When viewed in the pensive.

[Eric]

Yeah. The magic of the pensive is that you step outside yourself. You can see things objectively. I guess that's how I've always thought that it worked.

[Laura]

Your horse Slughorn Memory is not objective, though. That's my problem with this.

[Micah]

I agree, Laura.

[Laura]

If the memory comes because the thing is, we see and this. I'm sorry, I'm going on a little bit of a tangent here, because the Pensieve has always bothered me. But if they're taking the memories from themselves, how does the memory become unbiased? Is there a bias filter in the Pensieve? Like when they drop it?

[Eric]

I think that just the sheer act of experiencing it, like if you go into the Pensie and you're in someone's head, like being John Malkovich, you'd be biased. You have bias because this is happening to you when you're in the Pensie, your boots on the ground across the room, you can watch what everyone else's reactions are to the thing that was happening to the memory haver at the time. Plus, you know, something down the hall that you would barely have been able to pick up, you know, in. I'm thinking about, was it Crimes of Grindelwald? The one in Paris where Newt throws down the magic dust and there's like footprints from where everyone had been and he like relives the magic. What the heck is this magic? I'm starting to think that maybe that is related to the magic of the Pensive somehow in that you have this memory of a time that happened and the Pensive can infer from that memory. It's almost like time travel portal into the past kind of, in a way. But any of the answer that I would give would involve it being unbiased. I just think that makes the most sense based on what we see the Pensieve used for.

[Laura]

And so here's the thing though, and why it bothers me. And I mean, I hear you, Eric. If the canon of the book is that we're saying the Pensieve is unbiased and we just accept that, that's fine. But if it's unbiased, then why don't they use it for more things?

[Eric]

Like why don't they use Verita Serum for everything?

[Laura]

Yeah, like, I know it's crazy.

[Micah]

Well, it's not unbiased because I mean, just look at the memory that Slughorn tried to.

[Eric]

Well, he alters it, right?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

So, yeah, he. He removes and paints over what really happened. So there's a way to like to modify it.

[Micah]

Yeah, but it would still be coming from his perspective. That's the thing that bothers me.

[Andrew]

In this interview that we're citing, the author says of the Pensieve, it's reality. It's important that I've got that across because Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut and paste memory. He didn't want to give the real thing and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it together. So what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve. So I, you know, I think the author could have extrapolated a little more here on what exactly the difference is how do you cut and paste and do this pathetic memory modification versus you.

[Eric]

Don'T have final memory Pro. Andrew, on your.

[Andrew]

No, I don't pay for that subscription. I think we still need a little more clarification here. And like Laura, I'm willing to accept that this is canon because she says so.

[Eric]

That's the whole value of Dumbledore revisiting these memories in the Pensive to get a better grasp on the puzzle. That is how Voldemort is still alive. You throw a bunch of people's memories into the Pensive. You go in and you're able to see, even if Dumbledore is there, like in the courtroom scene in book four, Dumbledore is there, but he's able to witness other reactions across the room. You can infer other characters culpability in crimes and things by being able to just get outside your own head.

[Micah]

Which I guess where the magic of it comes in, there has to be some element of magic in order for that to be possible. Unless the water within the Pensieve is the same water that they use in Thief's Downfall. And it just cleanses everything. That's my headcanon.

[Eric]

It cleanses your bias. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Last thing I'll say on this is why isn't everything that was asked before, why isn't everything in the Pensieve? Why is inverter serum used more? I would like to think that when it comes to the Pensieve in particular, this is a very rare object to hold. And maybe the water is very hard to attain to. And, you know, I think maybe they're. The wizarding world might want to, without putting it into law, put some boundaries on these types of things because it might be a little dangerous to be able to take every memory out of your head. Like I was talking about a few weeks ago. What happens to that memory when you do pull it out of your head? Do you forget about it until you put it back in? That kind of work that way? Yeah.

[Eric]

It's supposed to work that way because Dumbledore says his head is too crowded.

[Andrew]

And humans shouldn't be able to operate that way. Right? Like, oh, I don't want to remember that terrible dinner I had yesterday. So let me pull that memory out of my head. It shouldn't have been that easy.

[Eric]

Well, no, you need to keep it in memory because otherwise you'll go back to that same awful restaurant. You order the same thing. That's why you need it.

[Andrew]

But that's the consequence of being able to pull out so many memories.

[Laura]

But, like, how do you remember to put them back?

[Eric]

The whole reason Snape has the Pensive has Dumbledore's Pensive is so that he can take stuff out of his head that Harry won't be able to see by breaking into his brain. So Harry just cuts out the middleman and goes into the Pensive but it's. Yeah, I think that, like things like the love for Lily, you can never really erase unless you erase a ton of memories and completely forget somebody. Like by erasing every little moment. So Snape will still feel loss. Snape will still feel some level of responsibility, guilt, all those things. But the individual moments of whatever caused those feelings to happen are gone. Like they aren't going to be accessible by somebody trying to read Snape's mind.

[Micah]

Well, speaking of forgetting things, Harry is so hell bent on speaking to Sirius, looking for some explanation that rationalizes his father's behavior, that he completely forgets that his godfather gave him a device for exactly this type of situation. And I quote, a way of letting me know if Snape's giving you a hard time.

[Eric]

Well, that applies the parameters, everybody.

[Micah]

Mirror, mirror, where art thou?

[Eric]

I think the problem is Harry, what takes that assumes that it's something that's going to get them both in trouble or serious. Caught and resolves to never use it, to never look at the bottom of his trunk. The day he gets the gift, he's like, oh, I'll never look at this.

[Micah]

But it's far more risky for him to go into Dolores Umbridge's office and use her fireplace to communicate with. With Sirius.

[Eric]

It certainly is. Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah. I also just think it would have been good after the fact to be like, hey, Harry, you should open that present I gave you at Christmas.

[Eric]

Yeah. Like, Sirius doesn't bring it up. And that to me, is the surprising part, because Sirius would know immediately that somebody flew traveling to his living room, which is like a protected headquarters of Order the Phoenix, and is or kitchen is so much more dangerous than just using the mirror. And he should have been like, Harry, thrilled to see you need to know why you're here. But first, you didn't. You didn't open your present. Like, I gave you a much easier way. Like, I literally am living my life with the mirror next to me the last 30 days and you ain't used it. Like, what's going on?

[Andrew]

I just think Sirius is so shocked by Harry's appearance in the first place that he's not even really thinking about that. And he might be also thinking in the back of his head. Time is of the essence right now, probably Harry definitely shouldn't be doing this. So we need to make this meeting quick. And there's probably no time to talk about the mirror. And I think this sets up Harry later wishing he had used it sooner to communicate with Sirius after he passes.

[Eric]

And he's got to give our characters guilt.

[Micah]

One of the more challenging moments for Harry in this chapter, and there are a few of them, is returning to Snape's class and coming face to face with him for the first time since Snape's worst memory. And we discussed this on episode 466, and we touched on it a bit at the top of the episode. But it is quite telling that when Harry isn't under constant scrutiny from Snape, he's actually halfway decent in Potions.

[Eric]

Yeah, Harry was dreading Potions. And then it turns out Snape's just ignoring him. So for most of the class, he actually has a decently good run of things. Like you said, Micah. Like, he makes a, by all accounts, competent invigoration draft.

[Micah]

And what happens? Snape smashes it.

[Laura]

Smash.

[Andrew]

Well, Snape smash.

[Eric]

Harry turns his back. I don't know anything.

[Andrew]

That's fair.

[Micah]

We don't know what happened.

[Eric]

But then Draco is like, oops. Or Snape's like, oops. Yeah.

[Andrew]

And Hermione a couple minutes later is also like, oops. Thought you were done. Sorry about that.

[Eric]

Yeah, it's the perfect. It's the perfect cataclysm here. Just so many bad things.

[Micah]

I did want to call attention to the fact that invigoration is the state of being energized or stimulated, made fresher or more vibrant. So it's only appropriate that Snape smashes this in this particular moment.

[Eric]

He's such a buzzkill. Literally.

[Laura]

He doesn't want that.

[Andrew]

I do have a hard time drumming up sympathy for Harry here, though. I mean, he did purposely check out Snape's very private memory. So I. You know, yes, there's the student teacher dynamics and we know Snape is a bad teacher already, but Harry really doesn't deserve to be treated particularly well this class. I'll say I'll give Snape a pass this time. But Harry's a child who broke into an adult's memories.

[Laura]

Yeah, but that same adult also broke into Harry's memories, so.

[Eric]

Well, he had Dumbledore's permission to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did we both pick the same line about Dumbledore just then? My thing is, I think it's underplayed because we're not, with Snape as a point of view character just how much of a violation that was. I think it's, you know, because Harry is so guilty about having done it that we sit with that and we feel bad for Harry. But, like, yeah, it's a huge violation. I remember the first time in 2020 that we went through the Dumbledore leaving the school scene and we had this whole debate about Marietta and whether memory wiping her was the right call because of her agency being taken away. It's like that level of violation, I think, that is really being done here. We could have a whole thing on it. But Snape is doing what he does best, which is being a little jerk and giving Harry Fs. And Harry's so used to it that he just walks away.

[Laura]

Yeah. And Snape is also setting Harry up to fail in a couple of ways. And I just. I think because Harry is so consumed with grief and confusion about what he's just learned about his father, it can be easy to overlook this. But Snape is not only penalizing Harry by failing him in Potions, he's also making him fail at Occlumency and as a result, bring about what happens at the end of this book.

[Eric]

And not just Sirius's death. All the danger that the children who go with Harry face at the Ministry. Any one of them could have died. The collateral damage is a lot bigger than just Sirius is putting his neck on the line. Totally could have been the end of the war. I mean, Harry could have died.

[Micah]

Snape is just petty at the end of the day. And this particular moment, as there are many in this series, is just in no way becoming of a professor. I'm sorry. No, I can see what you're saying, Andrew, in terms of it's tough to feel bad for Harry because he did step over the line, but Snape's also supposed to be an adult. And to imagine you were in science class, Andrew, you were in chemistry class. Let's say you spent all class putting together this particular concoction that was on the board. And you're so happy because you did a good job for one of the first times. And you bring it up to the professor, you turn your back to go back to your desk and you just hear everything splatter all over the floor. How would you react?

[Andrew]

I would say, Professor Micah, I know I just broke into your memories a few days ago, but you didn't have to do that. No, it'd be very frustrating. You're right. You're right. But this is nothing new for Snape. We know he behaves this way, and it's awful that he does. I'm just saying, this time I can almost forgive him.

[Micah]

Right. Okay. But this entire chapter for Harry is extremely stressful. Right. And this class doesn't help. And we're going to start to talk a little bit about Harry's career advice session with McGonagall. But initially he's so distracted that he forgets to go. He forgets the appointment, and I just.

[Eric]

Hermione.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Saves him.

[Micah]

Well, and one of many times. This is a scene that I know we've talked about quite a bit. It needs to be maxed. All of it. The interaction between McGonagall and Umbridge. How McGonagall stands up for Harry in this particular moment is just one of the defining moments for her as a character. And I think it parallels Harry standing up for her in Deathly Hallows to the Carrows and even using one of the Unforgivable curses. So I'm just disappointed we won't get Imelda. Maybe we're gonna get Hot Umbrage.

[Eric]

You know what? Let's work those vocals into that clip from now on to the max that.

[Micah]

Add a sizzle at the end of the max that.

[Andrew]

Yes, you're right. I mean, this is one of the opportunities with the Harry Potter TV show. I think we're so looking forward to the opportunity to dive into certain scenes that were tragically not adapted for the movies. I think this is the perfect example of something that could very easily be included in the TV show. There's some great character development here for McGonagall and Umbridge. It's going to be fun to watch Harry deal with umbridge and how McGonagall reacts to Umbridge being there. You know, it seems apparent that the author or max knows that McGonagall is evidently a popular character because they were trying to shoehorn her into the Fantastic Beasts series. So, I mean, here's an opportunity to give us more McGonagall in a way that actually we should have gotten in the first place.

[Eric]

Well, and the interest, like, I think that the reason this works so well in this chapter, career advice, is, I mean, partly because it's, like, news to Harry that McGonagall would go so hard for him. But we've been there every previous interaction that Harry and McGonagall have had together. She's his head of house. The movie's never adapted a lot of that stuff. And a lot of it wasn't, you know, adaptation worthy. It's just like her thoughts on Snape's bias at a Quidditch game. But, like, if the show actually shows all those little moments, I think this whole scene pays off. Five years down the road, this whole scene pays off even more because McGonagall has this, like, cold Reserve. This is the first time she really throws it on the line in the face of terrible penalty potentially. And I would just like to see that relationship specifically between McGonagall and Harry grow to then culminate in this scene. So I want to see. I don't want any moment of McGonagall from the books that was in the books to be cut from the show. I want to see it all and more and more.

[Micah]

Yeah, to your point, she says some pretty damning things, including, well, maybe Cornelius Fudge won't be minister by the time Harry is ready to become an Auror.

[Eric]

How can you say that to Dolores, who's literally built her whole life around propping Fudge up?

[Micah]

And she questions Umbridge's competency as a teacher. Yeah, so there are some really good zingers in there. But I did think it was nice to see McGonagall balance encouragement for Harry with the realism of where he's at currently in his academic career. And I think for Harry, it's nice to think about his future in a context that doesn't necessarily involve battling Voldemort. Every time you talk about Harry's future, it's always about him and Voldemort.

[Andrew]

This is why I love this chapter and scene so much, because I still remember for the first time reading this and I was feeling the series is growing up, Harry is growing up, and I totally agree with that. This is probably the first time we're looking at post Hogwarts life, at least seriously, and that's a big deal. So I actually like that this happens. And I know we were scheduled to talk about this a little later, but. Micah, you wanted to ask, does Harry really know what he wants to do at 15? I don't really think that's the point. I think this is an opportunity to get them thinking ahead and maybe put some plans together that they don't have to commit to. But I think when we're all teens, and maybe this is a little on the young side to start thinking this, but when you're a teen, let's say maybe 19, 20, 21, you're like, oh my God, what am I going to do with my life? A session with your head of house about your future plans could help deal with that. Those feelings, those concerns.

[Laura]

Yeah, I know we're going to get into talking a little bit more about career advice and starting those conversations as teenagers after the break, but I did just want to maybe put in a little bit of a devil's advocate point here. Is Harry actually thinking about a post Voldemort world in thinking about being an Auror because he's basically been in like a mini Auror ship since he was 11. It kind of feels like he's looking to the one career path that aligns with everything that he knows already and that he knows he's good at. Which is kind of sad because you don't know if he actually wants to do that or if it's just he's always done it and it's what's familiar and that's why he's gravitating towards it. He doesn't really give any consideration to anything else.

[Micah]

And if anybody has the prerequisites to be an Auror.

[Andrew]

Right.

[Eric]

What's on his cv? Just, you know, defeated the Dark Lord. Defeated the Dark Lord.

[Andrew]

Well, Umbrage disagrees with you, but I. Yeah, the rest of us agree with you. No, it's a good point, Laura. I. I hear that. On the other hand, maybe that was sort of fate, like Harry had all these experiences. He's always been born to be an Auror and if he still wants to be an Order or at this present stage and after he graduates from Hogwarts, I guess that should tell you that he really likes fighting crime.

[Eric]

I think it's okay. I'm going to choose like a middle ground here and say that it is the only thing Harry knows. He has not been encouraged to find other passions because Dumbledore's express will was that he'd be raised like a pig for slaughter. He's going to be the guy that gets Voldemort in the end because the prophecy says that he has to be. And I think in this moment also with McGonagall, he pulls it out of his back wand pocket. You know, he has not done any planning. He doesn't know what he's going to say. And I think the moment where he tells McGonagall, you know, I thought I'd be an Auror actually. He's just echoing what imposter Moody told him last year to do. And it's also kind of sad because we know that Harry does become an Auror and so does Ron. They're Aurors together. But it's kind of like still sticking yourself in the whole Voldemort business because even though Voldemort's gone, who are the first people you're going to get as Aurors? It's all the stragglers, Death Eaters, people that fought for Voldemort in the war. And so you're actually dooming yourself like Harry is dooming himself to continually immerse himself in in the world of collateral damage and the fallout of the defeat of Voldemort. So say Harry wins. What does he have to look forward to? Getting the rest of the Death Eaters off the streets.

[Micah]

He could play Quidditch. He's pretty good at that.

[Eric]

Yeah, Ginny does that.

[Micah]

Well, we're going to take a quick break and when we come back we're going to see if we can make some real life connections and did we ever have any career conversations like this when we were in school, we all wanted to be podcasters, right?

[Eric]

We were in high school. Some of us.

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[Micah]

I'll throw it out to the group. Did we ever have any of these career conversations when we were in school? And I think we can bring in part of the discussion that was below too. So much of it is predicated on standardized test scores, right? We hear this get brought up constantly when McGonagall is talking with Harry about you need this grade, you need this type of OWL in this subject, and you need this NEWT grade in this subject. And I feel like we all probably went through that to some extent, especially as we were looking at colleges.

[Laura]

Totally, right?

[Eric]

Yeah. I think for me it was we had software, there was like a career class or career expectations or choices. We met maybe once a week for maybe six weeks in school as part of the curriculum. And there was this software that started you out with a personality test and you take the personality test, figure out, you know, maybe it might have been your the four letters Myers Briggs. Is it infj in that. Thank you, Laura. And then it was like, here are the careers that people who are this are good at thriving, whatever. And then from there, we do like a little research on that, eventually choose some careers. And then there was, here are the schools you can go to that major in that. And so it was like a one, two way to present after this period of time, the, you know, what our personality test results were, what discipline we thought of doing, and then what school offers it. So that was kind of the first. I remember it being the first time we had to, like, actively look at colleges we might apply to in the summer.

[Laura]

Yeah, I remember doing something similar starting around, like, age 14 to 15, which, looking back, just feels so early. I had no idea what I wanted to do. I don't know what I want to do now. I'm 36, so, you know, you never grow out of it. Truth be told that we have 20.

[Eric]

Years of podcasting behind us. Do you think we should just coast and just keep doing that for a while?

[Laura]

I would love that, but, yeah, I mean, I think. Yeah, I just, I think as a kid that age, you're learning who you are and you're trying on a lot of different hats. And when you're thinking about future career aspirations, it's kind of the same thing I think I wanted when I was that age, like 14 to 15. I remember thinking I would be a teacher. And I did do that for two years and then change fields, and then I wanted to be a speech language pathologist, which I never did, never pursued. And I had vague, like, general desires to be a writer. I write, you know, these podcast planning docs. So I guess.

[Eric]

Which is so good. I mean, we keep talking about behind your back. We're like, she did it again. This is gold.

[Andrew]

Yeah, she should have been a writer.

[Laura]

Oh, thanks, guys.

[Eric]

We made Laura blush, you all.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I don't feel like I had career conversations in school. I don't think they were really giving them to us, but I kind of wish they did. In hindsight, it would have been interesting. Interesting to like, journal during these career conversations and look back on those.

[Eric]

The reason I suggested Harry half assed his aura line is because I half assed these assessments. I said that I was going to be an actor. You had to report what the income was for your profession. So I was just like millions, you know, kind of thing. And when I finally got to the career advisor about it all, I just kind of was like, yeah, you know, there's a few play. I had to look up schools So I knew like maybe Temple in Philadelphia, maybe nyu, but that was really as far as it got because I just didn't know. And so it's like well what does an actor make? $5 most, right?

[Micah]

No, it's such a good point and I think that you can look back and probably relate with Harry from the standpoint of we have standardized tests from the state level here in New York so it was all about the Regents Exams and how you're going to score on those exams and that was going to determine how you were set up along with the, the SATs for getting into college. And it feels very similar for Harry although the trajectory here is presumably there's no real post Hogwarts education. It's all getting into particular professions, most of which seem to be government related and so he needs to make sure he gets these type of owls and these type of dudes and so I agree with what you have here too Laura. Saying asking teenagers to lock in at this early an age just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Laura]

No, I think we do it too early Culturally I'm particularly thinking about Western countries. I think there is a lot of pressure put on literal children to make commitments that are going to affect them for the rest of their lives. Like I just, I really feel that strongly the older that I get and revisiting this chapter really brought that feeling back for me. A lot like reading about Harry's perspective as he's having this conversation where he's talking about what plans he's committing to for the next probably decade of his life, it's kind of jarring honestly.

[Eric]

My big takeaway from this too is I don't think we ever see Hogwarts teachers like keeping grades. We see them get their parchment back with like a letter on it but the idea that there's this whole, I don't know, manila envelope that McGonagall is able to pull out with like Lupin's two year old quotes about Harry's prowess is really satisfying. I don't know. It's like the teachers. We often talk about how the teachers at Hogwarts are jokes but apparently they keep, or at least some of them keep good enough notes. And to your point Laura, with it being so young Harry's looking if he wants to be AN R, that's three additional years of training is what McGonagall tells him which is one of the few things we hear about happening after Hogwarts. But three more years, Harry ain't that great a student but Maybe it's the prerequisites that'll save him.

[Laura]

Yeah, I think he probably gets to skip the three years of exams and prep time after he defeats Voldemort. They're probably just like, yeah, you're in.

[Eric]

Yeah, you got to rebuild the government. Go ahead, hunt down the rest of the Death Eaters.

[Micah]

It is really disconcerting, though, that Umbridge is present for this career consultation that Harry has with McGonagall. I'm sure he's nervous enough to begin with, but she has to be there, right? For the purposes of the story. But in retrospect, she really shouldn't be there.

[Andrew]

No.

[Micah]

She's not known Harry for all of a few months at this point.

[Eric]

Well, she's not there because she cares.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Oh, no.

[Eric]

She's there to torture him and. And say that he did have a profession he was really looking forward to. She's there to crush his dreams. Like, that's essentially what she tries to do.

[Andrew]

On the flip side, it's very satisfying reading this, knowing where Harry ends up. Post Hogwarts as an Auror, because she says, I will do everything in my power. You'll never become an Auror. And he does. So that part's nice. As frustrating as a scene is to read, I mean, no adult should be telling a student that they can't have whatever career they're passionate about at this age.

[Laura]

Yeah, it does make me wonder if she was visiting every career consult conversation McGonagall was having or if it was only Harry's.

[Andrew]

The way it's written, Umbridge was elsewhere. The rest of the day was dedicated for McGonagall to, you know, do these career consultations. So, yeah, she singled out Harry. And by the way, I want to call out for. No, for the people who aren't watching on YouTube or Spotify. Laura is wearing Umbridge pink today, and it's a little unsettling.

[Laura]

Okay, It's a little unsettling. I feel attacked right now.

[Andrew]

Well, you should.

[Laura]

Geez. Okay. I will never wear pink again.

[Andrew]

Not just pink, umbrage pink.

[Laura]

I mean, it's bright pink, but it doesn't have kitty cats all over it.

[Micah]

Do you need a cough drop, Laura?

[Laura]

No.

[Eric]

I just. I don't want to further this thing where we're calling each other out for what we're wearing to recording. Because I just threw this on.

[Micah]

You have the same color.

[Laura]

Almost there.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, we're marooning.

[Laura]

Be careful, Andrew. It's a Pandora's box. All I'm saying is now you've Opened it. So now it's fair game.

[Micah]

So let's break into Umbridge's office and first thing I wanted to ask about was Fred and George are really helpful to Harry in this particular moment. They set the distraction. Obviously they have bigger, loftier goals in mind with what they're doing. But when I was reading it, it kind of dawned on me that maybe they were willing to do this because of what Harry did for them. In terms of giving them the funding for Weasley's Wizard Wheezes it seems like a pretty big risk for them to take. Obviously we know why they do it by the end of the chapter but Curious to get your thoughts on that.

[Andrew]

I kind of felt like it was a risk because they're opening a shop in Diagon Alley which you would think has some Ministry control. So I kind of find this a bit of a plot hole that they would be able to cause this chaos. And while causing the chaos because do an ad for Weasley's Wizard Wheezes they literally say, hey, check us out. In our forthcoming store in Diagon Alley. Umbridge can't put the kibosh on that store. I'm a little surprised by that. So I find that part risky.

[Laura]

I don't think that's in her jurisdiction. I mean, I think Cornelius Fudge, though. Yeah, I think he'd want to. But it kind of sounds like they already have the property. Right.

[Eric]

Don't they say what the address is? Yeah, 93.

[Andrew]

I don't know, it just. It's still not just because as long.

[Micah]

As they're paying taxes.

[Andrew]

Well. And the other crazy thing is that Fred and George end up selling shield hats to the Ministry of Magic by the next book.

[Eric]

That's probably good graces they're in now. Yeah. Well, I think the Ministry would be able to control leases and property and who owns it and stuff in the wizarding world. So if a dissident group or somebody that had run afoul of the Ministry they could get their lease on their building canceled. But knowing now having played Hogwarts Legacy and there's a subplot where you get a shop in that you're just gifted that from some old house elf, I think at some point. So, you know, maybe they came by it in a very. We don't know, the owner's way. Yeah.

[Laura]

Oh. Ariane is saying in the discord they 100% funneled the money through dung to put down the deposit. I can see is there a lot.

[Eric]

Of money in manure? Yeah.

[Laura]

But yeah. Honestly, I kind of like that Headcanon that they were kind of working some of their seedier connections to make this happen.

[Micah]

Well, we talked about, or we played the clip from episode 466 where we talked about Harry's lack of preparation in terms of planning for breaking into Umbridge's office. And just to reiterate, he fails to lock the door, which is probably the biggest misstep he can make. He's almost caught by Filch. He's never done this type of fluing before. I don't think that's something that we talked about on the last episode. But this is a different type of flu experience than what he's experienced previously. There's no backup plan, no security lookout. And I think maybe this is even worse than not locking the door, that he's risking making the people who have vouched for him in this book look really, really, really, really bad. If he gets caught. Top of the list would be McGonagall. And he even has this thought, right. This comes to his mind. But he feels that it's more important that he speak to Sirius than the fallout from him getting caught by Umbridge and how that would make McGonagall look.

[Andrew]

And the part that really broke my heart was Dumbledore put his ass on the line for Harry just a couple chapters ago and now Harry's risking major trouble again. Like I said earlier, I was stressed reading this, even knowing the outcome.

[Micah]

Unlike the movie, too, he does not get caught in his first attempt.

[Andrew]

Yeah, this was reckless, definitely.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Especially for McGonagall. Her career would be over for good after this.

[Micah]

So does he get the reassurance he wanted from Sirius and Lupin?

[Andrew]

I actually think he does. I think all we have to know about James and Sirius comes when Sirius says that, like I said earlier, he's not proud of messing with Snape back then just because he was bored. And I think what that tells us and reminds us is that you do stupid things as a kid and you regret those things later. I kind of kept myself as a kid. I wasn't really causing much trouble, but kids were bullying me. And I like to think that another Andrew regrets strangling me in the gym one afternoon. Like, you know, he's an adult now. No, I'm still not over it. But, you know, you do dumb things as a kid.

[Laura]

I don't think I knew. I knew about the Chuck E. Cheese kid, but I didn't know about the kid in the gym.

[Eric]

Who's the Chuck E. Cheese kid?

[Andrew]

Chuck E. Cheese kid. Scratched my eyes out on up in the Tubes. My parents sued, well, threatened to sue Chuck E. Cheese and I got like a $10,000 savings bond out of it and a letter from Chucky and a life size Chuck E. Cheese doll. It was great.

[Eric]

So what's more valuable to you, the $10,000 savings bond or the letter from Charles Entertainment Cheese, Honestly?

[Andrew]

Well, at the time, the letter from Chuck E. Cheese.

[Laura]

Chucky himself apologizing, Apologizing for your trauma. Endorsed.

[Eric]

I wonder how many letters they had to send to kids who had incidents in their premises.

[Micah]

Mev mentioned in the discord. A really great point as well that Harry is also risking revealing Grimald Place.

[Laura]

Yep.

[Eric]

Yeah, that's the big thing for me. Yeah, it's the risks. But you ever just need that emotional catharsis and you have no way to get it except by force and you take it. I think. You know, I remember feeling for most of my time having read these books feeling like Sirius and Remus's assurances were underwhelming. This read through, I didn't mind them. This read through I felt it is exactly like you said, Andrew. There's just enough there in Sirius's obvious regret. And I think for me the sensitivity with which. So like if James were really, really bad and hadn't reformed, Sirius and Remus would have spent more time trying to really lay on thick and convince Harry that James had reformed. They would have used examples. They would have. Instead they're kind of just able to get into this weird like light hearted reflection moment. Like Harry mentions James messing up his hair and they're like, I forgot he used to do that. Like it's really sweet and touching. And I think that ultimately, even though the words are few, what they say to Harry is supposed to be the final word on it. It's like he got better.

[Laura]

Yeah, it's perspective, right? And that's something Harry is lacking here because again, this is the only time he's gotten to actually see his father in the flesh.

[Eric]

And that's the other thing is if we have this pensive, right, Hagrid even could provide a memory of James. Any memory of James, anybody that knew James et al McGonagall could provide a memory of James that is more human, that is more, you know, from when James was reformed and just get these horrible, this horrible version out of being the only one that's in Harry's head. That should be something that Dumbledore puts him through after book five for everybody.

[Micah]

It should have been more of this. I think for Harry Especially having been at Grimmel plays. More stories about James that Sirius and Remus shared with him. Even other characters. To your point, I think Harry lacks hearing more about his parents, aside from looking like James and having his mother's eyes. So I think the most important thing Harry learns from this conversation is that Snape should not have stopped the Occlumency lessons. And I would have been very intrigued if Lupin decided to show up at Hogwarts and see that play itself out.

[Eric]

That would have been interesting.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Especially because Umbridge not only dislikes Lupin on principle, as he's a werewolf, she would use a different term for him. But he just. McGonagall just quoted his words to kind of propel Harry back on the Auror track. So she's got it out for him.

[Micah]

The chapter wraps up with the Great Weasley Escape. So Fred and George distracted Umbridge allowed Harry to get some flu time with Sirius and Remus. And I thought that this was a really nice contrast to the title of the chapter. Career Advice. The Weasleys are taking their talents elsewhere, as they like to say. And personally, Andrew, you're gonna love this. I really would have loved a shot of Dumbledore watching from afar with a huge smile on his face.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And the great Give her hell from us peeves line.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Mugglecast alum made that their aim. Username Matt Giver. Hell Peeves. Yes. Definitely a big max, that.

[Micah]

Hot peeves.

[Laura]

Hot peeves. They make peeves a lot. Just make all the Hogwarts ghosts hot. Hot. Nearly endless Nick. Hot bloody Baron.

[Micah]

All right, a few odds and ends as we wrap up the chapter. There was really nice Ron and Hermione, Molly and Arthur comparison that Harry notes. It's when Hermione was asking Ron what did he think of this whole crazy plan to break into or to contact Sirius. And Harry was reminded irresistibly of Mrs. Weasley appealing to her husband during Harry's first dinner in grim old place.

[Eric]

Sure, we can't read into that at all.

[Laura]

I love that. I also just. I want to appreciate a growth moment for Hermione. You know, the thing that she's really harping on about not wanting to be done. This chapter is Harry breaking into Umbridge's office. Even though she knows Fred and George are going to be planning some kind of distraction. That's not really what bothers her at this point. She's over that side of being a prefect and, you know, she's definitely on the justice train, which is great.

[Micah]

And it's also noted that Hagrid is still having a rough time of it. Out in the Forbidden Forest, Harry sees him limping into his cabin. And I guess we're going to learn next chapter what that's all about.

[Andrew]

One more chapter to go until we start getting some answers on that.

[Eric]

Can you believe we have like less than 10 chapters left of this book and we still don't know what's going on with Hagrid? Like he just.

[Andrew]

The history of the book, the grand mystery, Harry Potter. What the hell is up with Hagrid?

[Micah]

Yep. All right, well, it's time for our MVP style question here. I wanted to know what's the best advice that Harry actually receives in this chapter?

[Andrew]

You don't seem to need many qualifications. Tilliers with Muggles. Hermione says that and I'm just like, yeah, Muggles are simple folk. That's the polite way of putting it.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although I think that says a lot about how wizards view Muggles too.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

My best advice that I think we get in this chapter is anything is possible if you've got enough nerve. And who says it the best? Ginny.

[Laura]

Yeah. And she actually has a couple of good moments in this chapter. We didn't get to touch on them too much. But I will say Ginny has some great moments coming up here towards the end of the book. So this definitely isn't the end of the. Ginny. Love on.

[Eric]

Okay, Laura, I'll count on you to lead us through every time Jenny does something cool.

[Laura]

Listen, here's the thing. I like Jenny's character and I wish she got to do cool things more.

[Eric]

Fair enough.

[Laura]

As for the advice that I wanted to share, and it's not so much advice that Harry gets, but it's more, again, perspective. And it's when he's talking to Sirius and Remus about Snape's worst memory and Snape or not Snape, sorry, Sirius basically just says, of course he was an idiot. We were all idiots. We were 15. And I love that because it's, it's amazing perspective for Harry to have two at the age that he is at, to maybe hopefully get him to self reflect a little bit and think, hey, am I being an idiot too? Because you never think you are. But I mean, I can tell you that I am not proud of every decision that I made 20 years ago.

[Micah]

Are any of us?

[Eric]

No.

[Andrew]

Some decisions. Not all of them, though. Yes.

[Micah]

No. No, not all of them. Yeah, some. Mine's simple. Lock the door, Harry.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Micah]

All right. And we also asked our patrons over at patreon.com mugglecast via the links line what's really going through McGonagall's head as she is constantly interrupted by Umbridge? Got some really great answers, y' all.

[Andrew]

Let's try to do some impressions when we read these. If if it is a quote, Caleb said, oh, how I long to go into my cat form and shred a beep.

[Eric]

I love the idea that McGonagall thinks about turning into a cat and ruining people.

[Andrew]

I just.

[Eric]

I just love that Jennifer says she's thinking she would like to choke her on a few or she would like her to choke on a few biscuits.

[Micah]

Now, Leah said, worrying about the very real fact that Harry has to take on Lord Voldemort and this beep actually thinks her opinion matters. This woman's arguments are so insignificant it's actually adorable. Like watching a pink puff skin try to take on a Hungarian horntail.

[Laura]

Carly says. I'd say given her love for Quidditch, McGonagall is probably envisioning using Umbridge's head as a quaffle.

[Andrew]

Yep, Courtney said. The position is cursed. She'll be gone by the summer, preferably maimed or seriously injured. Also, now I know why Potter can never keep his trap shut either.

[Eric]

Finally getting under her skin, Rachel said, what should I transfigure her into the idea that Migado's just coldly going, I know.

[Micah]

Spell Zachary says, who does this think she is? Doesn't she have better things to do like entertaining and subjecting to Filch's whips and chain fantasy?

[Andrew]

Sorry, I I almost been a sexy episode of Mugglecast.

[Laura]

I was about to be like Max.

[Eric]

Max that we need to call this Hot Peas.

[Laura]

Don't roll your eyes, don't roll your eyes is what Brandi says.

[Andrew]

And finally Darren said, lol. More of an adult answer. But this is what she's thinking. Damn, I'd really like to cut a bitch. Don't forget everyone, you can participate in the links line every week by becoming a [e-mail] mugglecast there's a link in the show notes as well. If you have feedback about today's episode, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to mugglecastmail.com and next week on Mugglecast, we'll discuss Chapter 30 of Order of the Phoenix. As we were teasing a few minutes ago called quite simply Grop. And while getting your outdoors time on this summer, check out our other weekly podcasts. What the Hype and Millennial for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. Over on what the Hype, Tune in for a discussion on queer icons in movies and tv. And over on Millennial, we're talking about social graces and being a good friend in 2025. Take your friends to the airport, people. And now it's time for I'm getting in July 11th. Oh, but you can build that to your business. It's different.

[Micah]

I'm just joking.

[Andrew]

Damn it, I walked right into that one. Now it's time for Quizage.

[Eric]

This week's question was what band had a single song at the top of the UK music charts for every week of May 1976, it's the month that the Marauders set their AL exams. Was it A, Abba, B, Billy Joel, C, Aerosmith, or D, David Bowie? A rare multiple choice quizzage question. The correct answer was abba. So if you revisit Snape's worst memory, just picture Fernando playing on some wizarding wireless in the background, because that was the song that was a hit. The month that the Marauders sat their exams, 64% of people who submitted the correct answer did not look it up. So that's cool. And this week's winners were. Abba, Dabba Doo Finty, I'm a nerd, Orange is the new Serious Black Snape quote laying all his love on Lily Tofu, Tom Winky's 13th butterbeer, a healthy breeze Buff Daddy, the Huffin Puffin that just finished a muffin, and Neville wears Prada. Fun names all. Next week's Quizzet question. Argus Filch seeks approval for whipping from Umbridge. And the sound of a bullwhip cracking is caused by what specific thing occurring with the whip. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the Mugglecast website. Go to mugglecast.comquizz to find that. Or if you're already on our website checking out the Must Listens page or the transcripts, click on Quizzage from the main nav.

[Andrew]

Thanks everyone for listening. Don't Forget to visit patreon.com mugglecast to support us. We couldn't do this show without you. Also, we would appreciate a review in your favorite podcast app and tell a friend about the show. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

Bye everyone. Bye bye Sam.